Open mike 21/12/2014

Written By: - Date published: 7:44 am, December 21st, 2014 - 251 comments
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Micky Savage christmasThe Authors of the Standard are now in holiday mode. Posting will be less regular and dependant on individual author enthusiasm. Open mike will continue every day and prepare yourself for some year in review posts and some recycling of old stuff. And as R0b has said be nice to each other.

Open mike is your post.

The Standard is not a conspiracy – just a welcome outlet for the expression of views. Leaders that command respect will not be undermined by this.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy). Step up to the mike …

251 comments on “Open mike 21/12/2014 ”

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  1. phillip ure 1
    21 December 2014 at 8:06 am

    (tho’ having had a sports-byepass @ birth..

    ..and the thought of watching/doing/talking about.. doing things with balls and funny shaped bits of wood…

    ..has me running screaming from the room..

    ..i have done the (inaugural) whoar sports-awards..

    ..the outsiders’ p.o.v..as it were..

    ..and there are only two of them..awards that is..)

    http://whoar.co.nz/2014/the-inaugural-whoar-sports-awards-the-beautiful-and-the-ugly/

    • Clemgeopin 1.1
      21 December 2014 at 10:35 am

      I had missed that part of the news where NZ Cricket put pressure and forced the Pakistan team to play citing legal action. Surely, common sense, empathy should have prevailed all round, including the ‘broadcasters’ and the game postponed by a day or two at least.

      I was gut wrenching, powerful and sad to read what you wrote:
      “..which brings me/us to the ugly…

      ..and there is only one finalist..for that dubious honour/award..

      ..and that is the new zealand cricket team/management..

      ..for off-field action..for behaviour so bad..i am still at the gape-mouthed/w.t.f.! stage of reaction to it..

      ..and that was their threatening the pakistani cricket team with legal action..

      ..if they did not take to the field for a one-day match..24 hrs after the massacre of all of those schoolchildren in pakistan..

      ..the pakistan team did not want to play..wanted to postpone..or to cancell

      ..but the nz’ers threatened them with lawyers..citing ‘broadcasting obligations’..

      ..and thus the pakistani cricket team were forced onto the field..to ‘play a game’..

      ..24 hrs after the horrors of that school massacre of innocents..

      ..where the new zealand team had a ‘victory’..

      ..a ‘victory’ beyond hollow..a ‘victory’ that could not be more tainted..”

    • marty mars 1.2
      21 December 2014 at 11:27 am

      I like this idea phil, where a non-sports person gives out some sports awards.

      As for nz cricket and your award to them – disgusting, they show that money is all they care about. Mind you I gave up on cricket years ago – too dirty, too many fixes.

      • Murray Rawshark 1.2.1
        21 December 2014 at 9:07 pm

        My son loved it. I used to take him and his Niuean mate to play, but I went right off it when the coach and a couple of other fathers pulled me aside and told me they didn’t really want the 12 year old Niuean boy there because they should play softball instead. Apparently cricket was too sophisticated for the Polynesian mindset. It’s one time I regret not being violent.

    • Murray Rawshark 1.3
      21 December 2014 at 8:53 pm

      Fuck cricket. Stupid bloody Tory game.

    • SDCLFC 1.4
      22 December 2014 at 11:27 am

      I followed that reasonably closely, and that’s not how that went down.
      I’m not one to defend the administration of New Zealand Cricket, and there is a significant degree of ignorance in the cricketing “west” regarding one of their small fraternity, Pakistan, being in a state of civil war.
      However, you’ve cherry-picked what you’ve heard to create a false narrative (rather similar to what Cameron Slater would do).
      Pakistan Cricket Board released a statement saying they could postpone the game because of broadcasting commitments and (not as part of) cricketing commitments with regards to New Zealand Cricket.
      This last part was ambiguous.
      New Zealand Cricket responded saying that that meant they couldn’t play the match at a later date because the team needed to be back in New Zealand for a test against Sri Lanka.
      That is different from saying, “you have to play this game or we get the lawyers in.”
      Pakistan didn’t want to face the financial penalties of the matched being cancelled and so wanted to postpone.
      New Zealand Cricket would’ve been happy to cancel but had not space on their calendar for a reschedule.
      International Cricket is a highly agitated place with claims and counter claims of conspiracy and racism and cheating and fraud etc etc all fueled by a hungry mob of hyperbolic reporters.
      If there was any suggestion that that was the case it would’ve been all over the place and it just isn’t.
      At no stage did the Pakistan Cricket Board reaffirm or provide any further context to their initial ambiguous statement. It was a case of lost in translation.
      Pakistan Cricket Board chose the money over canceling.
      If you want the filth in international sport start reading about Sepp Blatter and FIFA’s report into corruption.

      • phillip ure 1.4.1
        22 December 2014 at 11:53 am

        so you are saying one stinkingly corrupt sport ..

        ‘..International Cricket is a highly agitated place with claims and counter claims of conspiracy and racism and cheating and fraud..’ (your words..)

        ..isn’t quite as bad as blatter/fifa..?

        ..whoar..!

        ..ok..point taken..

        ..but as a defence..of international cricket..

        ..kinda shaky/shonky/lacking..doncha think..?

        ..redolent of presenting an argument that mussolini wasn’t as bad as hitler..

        ..will bring on an immediate reaction of ‘yes..but..’..?

        • SDCLFC 1.4.1.1
          22 December 2014 at 12:06 pm

          Yes – again, I’m not a cheerleader for New Zealand Cricket’s administration, but David White is ignorant and incompetent rather than a corrupt bully.
          Yes, plenty of questionable ethics within cricket, but some way to go before they get to the true masters at FIFA.

  2. b waghorn 2
    21 December 2014 at 8:17 am

    Where’s the news story about the cricket team threatening action to be found?

  3. mickysavage 3
    21 December 2014 at 8:41 am

    There is a police inquiry into Nat MP Mike Sabin over an assault complaint …

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/64362474/nat-mp-in-police-assault-inquiry

    • Paul 3.1
      21 December 2014 at 8:53 am

      From the article you linked.

      ‘The investigation is related to events in Northland, but detectives working on the case are based in Waitemata, north Auckland.
      The investigation was moved south from Whangarei because Sabin was a police officer based there until 2006.
      The officer in charge, Detective Inspector Kevin Hooper, refused to confirm Sabin was the subject of an investigation.’

      Does this suggest the event happened when Sabin was in the police?
      Also, is Sabin the father of the TV3 journalist who ambushed Pam Corkery during the election?

      • Weepus beard 3.1.1
        21 December 2014 at 10:35 am

        Also, is Sabin the father of the TV3 journalist who ambushed Pam Corkery during the election?

        That’s the one. I wonder if the son, an investigative journalist, and TV3 will pull out all the stops to get to the bottom of this story?

        Somehow, I think not.

      • phillip ure 3.1.2
        21 December 2014 at 3:06 pm

        i understand sabin is not talking to the media..

        ..i reckon they should send young brook around..

        ..’hey dad..!..open up..!..it’s me..!..brook..!’

      • Murray Rawshark 3.1.3
        21 December 2014 at 9:19 pm

        I suspect it’s a new one. Someone, not necessarily Sabin of course, doesn’t stop bashing people just because they stop wearing a uniform. In his case, he left in 2006.

    • Anne 3.2
      21 December 2014 at 9:15 am

      Police have tried to keep the investigation into Sabin quiet.

      So, are they hoping to sweep it under the carpet?

      What a difference in the handling of complaints from the ‘left’ and the ‘right’.

      A rabid right winger who happens to be a mate of the PM’s… lays a complaint against someone perceived to be on the left. Within days the police are conducting a high profile ransacking of the target’s home.

      Someone lays a complaint against a well known right-wing pollie come ex-police officer. It’s softly, softly… all in secrecy.

      • greywarshark 3.2.1
        21 December 2014 at 10:06 am

        @ Anne Paul
        I have noticed police getting into politics – local here. They tend to be RW authoritarian but not necessarily so. But I don’t know if it is a good mix generally.

        The methods of looking into this event and the connections certainly raise questions.
        Needs watching. Shades of roast busters with one young man supposedly being the son of a policeman. And we know the snail like progress of the investigation and revelations of that.

        • Manuka AOR 3.2.1.1
          21 December 2014 at 11:42 am

          “The methods of looking into this event and the connections certainly raise questions.”

          At the time of the police raid on Nicki Hager, wasn’t he preparing a new investigative report, specifically into police corruption? They swooped in and removed all his files, records and equipment (under whatever excuse). They took the evidence against themselves, in effect.

          How is that different from a police state tactic?
          How is that not utterly corrupt?
          Are there no checks and balances in NZ to protect against such corruption?
          Do NZers really not care about this?
          (and if so, what hope is there for the future. )

          • Draco T Bastard 3.2.1.1.1
            21 December 2014 at 12:20 pm

            That’s what Bradbury is reporting:

            Put aside the allegations the Police are ignoring and why Slater can get his complaints processed with such speed, what about the fact that Hager is currently investigating corrupt NZ Police and that his information has been seized by that very same police force?

            He further submitted that as some of the files seized included allegations of corruption within police, he was concerned that the data survived in its original condition.

            If true then we have even more prima facie evidence of corruption in NZ at the highest levels of authority.

            • Manuka AOR 3.2.1.1.1.1
              21 December 2014 at 12:50 pm

              And no way of dealing with it?

              No way to clean it up and regain autonomy of our own nation?

            • kenny 3.2.1.1.1.2
              21 December 2014 at 1:34 pm

              In my humble opinion the amount of cronyism which exists throughout the anglo-american world over the last 50 years is one of the main drivers of corruption and ineptitude in our public service organisations, especially the police. It is also widespread in industry, where I think everyone knows of an instance where the best person for the job does not necessarily get it, but someone who knows someone, does. Keep this behaviour up over 50 years and you can see what it leads to.

              I read somewhere that the role of the police is not to protect the public but to protect the government FROM the public. It certainly seems like it. The police officer on the beat does as he is told by authority or he is in trouble, in my opinion.

              Reform is needed.

          • Murray Rawshark 3.2.1.1.2
            21 December 2014 at 9:24 pm

            How is that different from a police state tactic?

            It’s not.

            How is that not utterly corrupt?

            It’s not.

            Are there no checks and balances in NZ to protect against such corruption?

            No real ones that are effective against political corruption among ngati poaka. Not many that are effective against law breaking at an individual level.

            Do NZers really not care about this?

            I do. I reckon you do too, and there must be a couple more of us somewhere.

            (and if so, what hope is there for the future. )

            Ask Winston Smith and prepare your face.

    • Pete George 3.3
      21 December 2014 at 1:32 pm

      If you can believe Slater (sometimes he lives up to his hype) it could be serious, he’s predicting a by-election.

      The coming by-election in Northland

      The story itself, which National have sat on for weeks, is almost too horrible for words, and there is little doubt that there will be a by-election in Northland.

      Ironically he adds:

      This is the problem you get when you have an ethically challenged party hierarchy.

      And he gives details of another serious complaint supposedly against a National MP. Presumable these are MPs who don’t pay him for his advice.

      And the usual caution needs to be taken with Slater, who reminds:

      It’s politics, the court of public opinion rules.

      But it looks potentially serious for Sabin at least, that’s something journalists are also on to.

      • Pete George 3.3.1
        21 December 2014 at 1:48 pm

        Correction, the second one is a “National Party figure”. Slater has been promoting something similar for yonks, i don’t know if it’s the same case or not.

      • batweka 3.3.2
        21 December 2014 at 1:48 pm

        WARNING, this thread is in danger of imploding now that Pete George is pointing out the irony of Slater talking about ethics and the National Party.

    • Pete George 3.4
      21 December 2014 at 1:35 pm

      Radio NZ has just reported confirmation of the Sabin complaint:

      The Prime Minister’s office says it is aware of a complaint that has been made to police about the National MP for Northland, Mike Sabin.

      http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/262327/pm%27s-office-confirms-complaint-about-mp

      • tracey 3.4.1
        21 December 2014 at 5:27 pm

        but he refused to answer questions put to him by SST

        • Pete George 3.4.1.1
          21 December 2014 at 5:50 pm

          The PM (or his office) is limited in what can be said while it’s under police investigation but I think it should have been advised that an investigation into a complaint was happening.

          It’s relevant when the PM knew about it. Slater claims “National have sat on for weeks” but whether it was known about before or after Sabin was appointed Chairperson of Parliament’s Law and Order committee and to the Justice and Electoral committee is of particular interest.

          • tracey 3.4.1.1.1
            21 December 2014 at 7:22 pm

            so many words to say nothing.

            you obviously didnt read the SST. If you did you would know the three questions to the Liar in Chief coucould e been answered with no impact on the investigation.

            still… if you look to slater for some of your facts it starts to make sense.

            • Pete George 3.4.1.1.1.1
              21 December 2014 at 7:48 pm

              I did read the SST. Did you read what I said? Doesn’t sound like it.

              The PM’s office could have (and I think should have) advised that an MP was being investigated when they found out but they are under no obligation to answer questions about it.

              As long as you’re aware of possible connotations then Slater can be a useful source for some things. Any source can be suspect but it’s worse ruling out sources. Ignoring someone totally because they sometimes do outrageous things seems silly.

              • Murray Rawshark …
                21 December 2014 at 9:39 pm

                He’s not a source when he starts bullshitting about something he just read on Stuff. Nor is he a source about anything Goodfellow may or may not have done. He’s a bullshitter and you have to be pretty thick to take any notice of him.

            • Paul 3.4.1.1.1.2
              21 December 2014 at 8:02 pm

              Observing the power politics between Slater and Key is worthwhile.
              It is interesting that Slater feels able to post comments like this.

              ‘The story itself, which National have sat on for weeks, is almost too horrible for words, and there is little doubt that there will be a by-election in Northland.

              ‘Word from Fraser House is that senior whip and pink cocktail drinker Chris Hipkins is sitting on another ethics story where a senior National Party figure has been nailed for wife beating, and doing a whole lot of things that are not OK. Combine that with the Sabin story and it really looks like John Key doesn’t care about ethics.’

              Clearly peace has not broken out between Key and Slater.
              Further pressure maybe to give Collins her place back?

    • tracey 3.5
      21 December 2014 at 5:24 pm

      not that the PM knows… or even the Poli e

    • millsy 3.6
      21 December 2014 at 8:54 pm

      FYI: Sabin currently has a nasty little bill in the ballot which allows employers to confiscate their workers prescription medication.

      One can imagine hospitality workers dropping dead from asthma attacks because their boss took their inhaler from them.

      Personally if someone dies because their medication is withheld from them, then that is tantamount to manslaughter.

  4. Saarbo 4
    21 December 2014 at 8:42 am

    National/Key are obviously starting a new concerted PR campaign…
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11377456

  5. Pete George 5
    21 December 2014 at 8:48 am

    Depicting “the architect of the welfare state” with a symbol of crass consumerism is insulting to MJ Savage.

      • greywarshark 5.1.1
        21 December 2014 at 9:57 am

        Have a Christmas Pete George and I don’t care whether yours is happy or not, and join us again after until you get Santa’s fur lined boot, from what you regard as a play pen for your amusement and to keep ennui away.

        Hi there E, Merry etc!

    • The Al1en 5.2
      21 December 2014 at 9:14 am

      No it’s not, and there’s no reason why anyone would think that… Unless it’s just a poor excuse to put the boot in.

      So really, using a photo of MJ Savage in a santa hat to make a very weak point about consumerism is what’s crass and insulting. You should be ashamed of yourself 😉

      • Anne 5.2.1
        21 December 2014 at 9:23 am

        Well said The Al1en.

        Now he’s going to come back with an equally puerile reposte – all in the hope we spend the next two hours arguing the toss over Santa hats. I had a Xmas card once of a bunch of cows on a Great Barrier Island beach. The sender had digitally placed Santa hats on their heads. It was delightful.

        • The Al1en 5.2.1.1
          21 December 2014 at 9:39 am

          It’s arguable that all of pg’s tips are puerile, but yes, definitely attention seeking, or looking to draw a response from someone who should know better and use it on his own site as a scoop as an example of how bad the lefties are and similar to sick note slater’s dirty politics.

          So not just puerile, but pointed and predictable to boot.
          An obvious bait.

    • Stephanie Rodgers 5.3
      21 December 2014 at 9:20 am

      Troooooooooooooollbaaaaaaaaaaaaaaait. 🙄

      • batweka 5.3.1
        21 December 2014 at 9:40 am

        PG Sundays.

        Gotta laugh at Petey trying to pass himself off as a champion of Michael Joseph Savage.

      • Pete George 5.3.2
        21 December 2014 at 9:45 am

        I expressed my opinion Stephanie, something you seem to have a problem with. And by the way you don’t like others diverting like you have.

        Are you happy see depicted MJS like that?

        • batweka 5.3.2.1
          21 December 2014 at 10:07 am

          See that comment is the epitome of troling. PG is a master.

        • Colonial Rawshark 5.3.2.2
          21 December 2014 at 10:11 am

          Hey Pete George, does this mean that you think the commercialisation of Christmas in general has gone too far and that we all need to refocus on the community and family aspects of Christmas?

          • Pete George 5.3.2.2.1
            21 December 2014 at 10:44 am

            Yes, I’ve said that for years. But it’s hard to fight against the rampant over-commercialisation of it.

            I see that KFC are now advertising “Christmas feasts”.

            • The Al1en 5.3.2.2.1.1
              21 December 2014 at 10:54 am

              “I see that KFC are now advertising “Christmas feasts”.”

              And what’s wrong with that? It’s christmas, it’s a feast, it’s a christmas feast.
              As long as workers aren’t forced in to work and are appropriately compensated for their effort, what the fucks that got to do with you?
              Don’t want it, don’t buy it. No reason to be judgemental over other peoples choices.

              “it’s hard to fight against the rampant over-commercialisation of it.”

              And now teh standard has a picture of a bloke in a santa hat.
              Oh noes, it’s the end of civilisation as we know it.
              Those commie bastards killed christmas.

            • aj 5.3.2.2.1.2
              21 December 2014 at 12:05 pm

              “But it’s hard to fight against the rampant over-commercialisation of it”
              I knew if I waited long enough PG would say something I agree with.

          • tracey 5.3.2.2.2
            21 December 2014 at 7:28 pm

            he doesnt like lots of things but can never see the point in expending effort changing them. he sighs heavily every time he is forced to perpetuate things he doesnt like cos who can change it… and people wonder why key remains popular… people like PG are sleep walkers for the right.

        • Stephanie Rodgers 5.3.2.3
          21 December 2014 at 4:24 pm

          It’s not diverting if it’s on Open Mike, where nothing is offtopic. All I’m doing is pointing out that you’re deliberately posting comments which you know will be inflammatory because it’s your favourite hobby – but you *definitely* have a problem with people doing that, don’t you?

          • Pete George 5.3.2.3.1
            21 December 2014 at 4:42 pm

            You’re making things up Stephanie.

            It’s common for people to post on things that could be open to dispute and debate isn’t it? Or should comments never risk upsetting anyone?

            Perhaps you could explain what topics are regarded as inflammatory and should be avoided here.

      • Paul 5.3.3
        21 December 2014 at 9:54 am

        16/28 comments on this thread caused by pg’s bait.

        • Colonial Rawshark 5.3.3.1
          21 December 2014 at 10:12 am

          I know it’s awful, lol 😈

          • The Al1en 5.3.3.1.1
            21 December 2014 at 10:18 am

            A guilty pleasure is replying to pg – You know you shouldn’t but you just can’t help yourself.

            Like a pack of McVities chocolate digestives, but always less satisfying after the dunk.

            • Colonial Rawshark 5.3.3.1.1.1
              21 December 2014 at 10:22 am

              Well put! It’s the inevitable deluge of pitiless PG diarrhea which comes soon after which really makes one regret.

        • batweka 5.3.3.2
          21 December 2014 at 10:27 am

          “16/28 comments on this thread caused by pg’s bait.”

          Not as bad as the other day when it was 29/30 comments.

        • Rosie 5.3.3.3
          21 December 2014 at 2:36 pm

          True Paul. I’ve always said it would be awesome if he were just ignored. Responding to him just gives him power.

          It’s frustrating to open up an author post or more commonly Open Mike and find that it’s just a PG explosion. If I see that happen, I just close the page, which is disappointing because I like to hear what folks have to say about a topic.

          One misses out because one doesn’t have the patience or inclination to deal with the baiting tactics and inevitable responses.

    • millsy 5.4
      21 December 2014 at 9:24 am

      Why should you care, given that you pretty much oppose what MJS and the Labour Government stood for.

      They gave kids milk in schools so parents can spend money on bootlegged whisky and cigars for a start…

      • Pete George 5.4.1
        21 December 2014 at 9:42 am

        “… given that you pretty much oppose what MJS and the Labour Government stood for.”

        You’ve made that up. You’re wrong.

    • mickysavage 5.5
      21 December 2014 at 9:39 am

      Pete where is your sense of humour? I be the real MJS would have laughed and appreciated the thought that he was compared to Santa.

      • Anne 5.5.1
        21 December 2014 at 10:08 am

        Santa brings joy, happiness and a sense of wonder to small children all over the world. (I never did figure out how he managed to get to every-one in one night).

        Micheal J Savage brought happiness, joy and stability to many thousands of people in NZ.

        Yep, a good comparison and one that would have tickled Savage.

        Crass consumerism is another matter altogether and has nothing to do with Santa or Santa hats.

        • greywarshark 5.5.1.1
          21 December 2014 at 11:13 am

          And even crass consumerism can produce moments of happiness and joy.
          and mac1 has underlined that.

      • karol 5.5.2
        21 December 2014 at 5:53 pm

        And, anyway, Santa with a red hat was not originally particularly “consumerist”. It was the incorporation of various myths and legends.

        It later got co-opted by corporates and consumer society.

    • mac1 5.6
      21 December 2014 at 9:45 am

      Pete George, I speak as an in-store Santa who sees some 500 plus children in an non-stop stream. You are wrong to categorise what I do as ‘crass consumerism.”

      I offer a special child-centred time and a bit of magic and I hope some fun. But better than how I can express it is this excerpt from an on-line article.

      “What is essential to Xmas: there is a tree, and a gift for a child under a tree, that is “from Santa.” For the child, Xmas has nothing to do with ‘consumerism’. The gift just appears. Its a bit of what the surrealists called the marvelous. For the adult, it is a way to give to the child without expecting the child to be grateful to the parent. Rather, it is so the child can know that world itself could be generous. Nothing is owed in return. At least not yet. Later, the child can be let in on the secret: that we are staging a marvellous ritual about how the world itself could be experienced as bounty and plentitude, but we do so in a long loop through the generations. ”

      At core it’s about giving without strings attached. It’s for the parents, too, as they share in the delight. PG, if you could see the bouncing joy in the faces and bodies of some of the kids, you would change your mind.

      Merry Christmas, PG. May you still feel some of that joy.

      • Sacha 5.6.1
        21 December 2014 at 4:19 pm

        “For the adult, it is a way to give to the child without expecting the child to be grateful to the parent. Rather, it is so the child can know that world itself could be generous.”

        That’s beautifully put. Thank you.

      • Pete George 5.6.2
        21 December 2014 at 4:33 pm

        “PG, if you could see the bouncing joy in the faces and bodies of some of the kids, you would change your mind.”

        I’ve seen plenty of joy in kids at Christmas (including being Santa at kindergarten) and will next week. I’ll be sharing Christmas with five grandchildren in person and three more via Skype.

        But I’ve also experienced and seen the excesses of Christmas. Kids can get more in one Christmas than I got in all mine as a child. From decades ago I remember nephews chanting “we want more presents” after yet another round of opening.

        And many parents don’t have joy in their faces when they try to sort out their post festive season finances. The commercial pressure to spend too much is high. As are many credit card bills in January.

        There are great things about Christmas for sure. But the over-commercialisation has gone too far with too much pressure to overspend.

    • Clean_power 5.7
      21 December 2014 at 10:39 am

      Mr George, you show a total lack of humour. Your greyness has infected every bit of your boring life, and now you want everybody to be boring, dull as unappealing as you are.

      My humble advice: do get a life!

    • RedLogix 5.8
      21 December 2014 at 10:50 am

      I thought it was a red tinfoil Santa hat …

      What else could it possibly be?

    • David 5.9
      21 December 2014 at 11:06 am

      What the hell do you care about MJS? Haven’t you got some scantily clad women to chase on twitter like your esteemed Party Leader who is infallable?

      • Pete George 5.9.1
        21 December 2014 at 11:17 am

        I haven’t got a party leader, and your comment is grossly offensive.

        Who the hell are you to judge who I care about?

        I think MJ Savage and his Labour government initiated more good for New Zealand society and people than any other New Zealand government has done or is likely to do.

        I respect MJ Savage. I don’t like the image of him here. It’s a bit sad and rather ironic that expressing an opinion on Savage triggers so much savagery.

        • Colonial Rawshark 5.9.1.1
          21 December 2014 at 11:39 am

          I haven’t got a party leader, and your comment is grossly offensive.

          OMG, the barbarism! The inhumanity! The depravity! lol

        • batweka 5.9.1.2
          21 December 2014 at 12:29 pm

          “It’s a bit sad and rather ironic that expressing an opinion on Savage triggers so much savagery.”

          In the spirit of redressing crass commercialisation, PG is now recycling his lines (he used that one on me the other day, albeit he’s added a nice savage pun at the end this time).

        • phillip ure 5.9.1.3
          21 December 2014 at 2:40 pm

          p.g has moved into handwringing mode…

          ..is there an emoticon for him..?

          ..one showing oozing bullshit..?

        • millsy 5.9.1.4
          21 December 2014 at 8:46 pm

          Oh God, PG, that comment is completely unbelievable.

          At least Cameron Slater stands by his comments and openly admits to his hatred of unions and left wing policies.

          If he said MJS should have been strung up by piano wire then he would gladly stand by those words until he went to his grave, he wouldnt have tried to deny it.

          How does it feel, knowing that Cameron Slater has more integrity than you do.

    • sabine 5.10
      21 December 2014 at 8:53 pm

      Me thinks you are mistaken

      As the First Labour Government assumed office in 1935 they immediately set to work with the Cabinet approving:

      * A Christmas payment bonus costing £100,000 to the unemployed with no distinction to be made by race or sex.

      * Introduction of seven days annual holiday for relief workers

      * And on Savage’s suggestion, made grants to all hospital boards for the purpose of of providing Christmas bonuses for all recipients of charitable aid.

      * A rise in teacher-student allowances in some cases by more than 350%

      Savage stated “there were more important things to be done than to chat over teacups” and that he and his Government “would not be found enjoying social occasions while people not privileged to take part were in dire distress”

      actually just read this and you might come to the conclusion that the man was father christmas, or Saint Nikolaus himself.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Labour_Government_of_New_Zealand
      Merry Christmas to you too.

      • batweka 5.10.1
        21 December 2014 at 8:58 pm

        Savage stated “there were more important things to be done than to chat over teacups” and that he and his Government “would not be found enjoying social occasions while people not privileged to take part were in dire distress”

        Wow, just wow.

  6. ianmac 6
    21 December 2014 at 9:45 am

    Lynley Bilby is a reporter for the Herald on Sunday and intent in giving us mean little phrasing for ordinary events.
    “The car that controversially raced across the South Island clocking speeds well above the limit so then-prime minister Helen Clark could get to a rugby test on time has been sold in Auckland.”
    Really after all this time?
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11377436

    And Len Brown has his house up for sale but how to phrase that?
    “Embattled Auckland Mayor Len Brown is selling his family home.” and “The two have rarely been seen together since news emerged last year of Brown’s two-year affair with former Ethnic People Advisory’s Panel member Bevan Chuang.”
    Really Bilby? Wonder what she is employed to do? Yuck!
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11377485

    • millsy 6.1
      21 December 2014 at 9:48 am

      I didnt think that what Brown and his wife did with their house was any of our business. Looks like I was wrong.

    • greywarshark 6.2
      21 December 2014 at 11:21 am

      @ ianmac
      Some of that diarrhoea mentioned above relating to PG tips must have stuck to that reporter Lynley. I guess she has to keep moving fast on the latest story so that the pong always streams behind her like a comet’s tail.

      Go for it Lynley Bilby, try streaking. Without clothes you can create multiple opportunities –
      1 Get away from the smell and stain on your old clothes, 2 Make a piece of reportable news yourself 3 Be the first reporter on the scene so get an exclusive
      4 Organise a photograph, a selfie, a vid link etc so the scene can be seen
      5 Achieve instant notoriety which is as good as getting famous for some grand effort these days.

    • b waghorn 6.3
      21 December 2014 at 3:11 pm

      So keys getting good PR all over the place and the herald dredging up ancient stories to show labour in a bad light wtf!!

  7. aerobubble 7
    21 December 2014 at 9:46 am

    Can’t really expect there to be no consequences from repeated tax cuts for the top.

  8. greywarshark 8
    21 December 2014 at 9:48 am

    Ian Smith Coroner died on 24 October 2014. I missed that news but now I know it, I miss this man of integrity. He was dedicated to causing change and improvement as a result of what he learned from the cases he heard. And he was outspoken against no and light regulation pointing out that Paraparaumu Airport had wiped controls on height controls in 2006 that would likely have prevented the deaths of three men, and destruction of the aircraft.

    Now one of his findings has become news again.
    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/262111/air-collision-near-perfect-storm-coroner
    A coroner wants changes to the rules for smaller aerodromes, following the deaths of three men [in February 2008] when a light plane and helicopter collided over Paraparaumu, north of Wellington.
    In his findings, Mr Smith said all three men met the legal requirements for the activities they were undertaking.
    He said the men died from multiple injuries sustained in the crash, which occurred when a near-perfect storm developed in the airspace near Paraparaumu.
    That included the aircraft flying in opposing circuits, the removal of height separation in 2006 and possible confusion regarding radio transmissions.

    Mr Smith said there was little time for the two pilots to avoid a collision.
    Under civil aviation rules, certification is required for aerodromes where planes with more than 30 passenger seats land but at the time of the crash Paraparaumu Airport did not meet that threshold.

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/262164/govt-moves-to-regulate-small-airfields
    The Government is moving to regulate small airfields in the wake
    of a fatal air accident over an airport near Paraparaumu in 2008.
    Mr Smith found safety procedures at the aerodrome at Paraparumu were less than robust and said the concept of self-regulation was flawed.
    But Aviation New Zealand chief executive Samantha Sharif disagreed.
    (I don’t know what Aviation NZ is but the attitude expressed indicates it appears to speak for the lite regs, lazyboy lying coterie, that surf their way over death and disaster as in Pike River.)

    Coroner Ian Smith found multiple factors created a “near perfect storm” on the day of the accident.
    He also found that rules proposed following the crash, to give the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) more regulatory teeth at uncontrolled aerodromes, were still not in place.
    Green Party transport spokesperson Julie-Anne Genter said the Government had known for five years that the CAA needed more powers but had done nothing.

    His active approach and commitment to bring value to his job was evidenced in this:
    Last year Smith expressed ”extreme frustration” at the lack of action on quad bike safety: ”What’s the point in coroner hearing evidence making recommendations and then … nothing?”.
    The comments came after he made safety recommendations on quad-bike related deaths in 2009, in 2010, and again in 2011.
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/10659247/Warm-hearted-articulate-and-generous-coroner-dies

    • Colonial Rawshark 8.1
      21 December 2014 at 10:18 am

      System of civil governance is slowly falling apart into the wild west.

      • Draco T Bastard 8.1.1
        21 December 2014 at 12:41 pm

        Which is what the small government types seem to want. Lack of governance and regulation was great for the people who got rich stealing from everyone else through monopoly control and intimidation. Not so good for everyone else though as they ended up in poverty and often dead which is why we got the regulation in the first place.

        • Once wasTim 8.1.1.1
          21 December 2014 at 2:30 pm

          @ Draco ….
          Do you agree tho that their quest is self-defeating and unsustainable – unless of course they think gated communities, bought law enforcement agencies, media et al is sustainable? Just interested in your opinion. Unfortunately in a place like NuZull it could take a while and we may be fortunate enough to see the most violent consequences elsewhere – but the inevitability of it all just screams out to me.
          Really its all a matter of time but when you look around the world and back through history, the natives (the 50, then 60, then 70, then 99.9%) eventually get restless. It’s all so frikken needless too.
          (as I write – BBC World is reporting on the assassination of Police officers – presumably in response to Police shootings – then comes the Gov with the platitudes — ” an assault on All New Yorkers …. all that we stand for ….. etc., etc. ” and as he does I’m thinking the same could be applied to the rogue cops, and the corrupt responsible for whre they’re at today)

          • Draco T Bastard 8.1.1.1.1
            21 December 2014 at 3:39 pm

            Do you agree tho that their quest is self-defeating and unsustainable

            Yep. That’s the way it’s been throughout history – the rich destroy the society that they prey upon. As I say:

            We cannot afford the rich.

            • Once wasTim 8.1.1.1.1.1
              21 December 2014 at 4:27 pm

              We cannot afford ‘the rich’ preying. I really don’t give a fuck whether someone’s rich or poor – it’s the needless ‘preying’ part I dislike. But I’d agree with you in the sense that it seems ‘the rich’ seem to see their ‘earn’ in preying on the poor these days – i.e. as if it’s the ONLY way they can make an earn (and an earn that’s way above their need). As if they’re going to take it all with them too!
              – harder they rise – harder they fall (and all that)

              • Draco T Bastard …
                21 December 2014 at 5:21 pm

                I really don’t give a fuck whether someone’s rich or poor

                But you should do as being rich is, ipso facto, preying upon society.

                I would rather earn 1% off a 100 people’s efforts than 100% of my own efforts.

                John D. Rockefeller

                That’s how people, even CEOs, get rich. They take just a small amount off as many people as they can. Ownership of businesses, companies and corporations is designed to enable this theft.

                • TheContrarian …
                  21 December 2014 at 6:32 pm

                  “But you should do as being rich is, ipso facto, preying upon society.”

                  Complete bullshit.

                  • Draco T Bastard …
                    21 December 2014 at 7:22 pm

                    Such a stunning argument. The shining light of your wisdom and knowledge humbles us lesser mortals, causes us to gaze upon your countenance in awe and envy…

                    oh, wait, nope, you’re just trolling as per normal.

                    The only reason the rich aren’t in jail for theft is because we’ve legalised the capitalist method and bound it in custom and tradition. Same way that a few centuries ago being an aristocrat and owning serfs was legal.

    • Draco T Bastard 8.2
      21 December 2014 at 12:36 pm


      After reading the About it appears that it’s an industry association designed to promote NZ avaiation companies in the typical neo-liberal fashion, i.e, no regulations, no safety, low worker protections and lots of profits but no responsibility for shareholders and managers. Despite the implication in its name and purpose it doesn’t appear to be connected to the government.

      • greywarshark 8.2.1
        21 December 2014 at 3:04 pm

        @ DTB 8.2?
        I note that there are 5 goals for this Aviation crowd.
        This is No.3 – To champion issues impeding the international growth of the aviation sector by working closely with New Zealand aviation agencies responsible for regulatory change. (Getting regulatory change to suit them?)

        It is governed by a Board committed to the success of the venture:
        Bruce Heesterman, Chairman and CEO, ASPEQ
        John Jones, CEO CTC Aviation and President Aviation Industry Association
        Neal Garnett, NZ Rep, EADS Australia/Pacific
        Samantha Sharif, Director Industry Affairs, CANSO
        and an advisor to the Board:
        Mike Flanagan, GM Air New Zealand Consulting
        John Nicholson is the Chief Executive and operates alongside the AIA Executive in Wellington.
        Aviation NZ works through sector champions who include the chairs of the relevant AIA divisions.

        ASPEQ is a NZ software Company.
        Aspeq spreads its wings to Britain | Stuff.co.nz
        http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/…/Aspeq-spreads-its-wings-to-Britain
        Nov 20, 2013 – Pilots in England will soon learn to fly using software made in Lower Hutt. Wellington company Aspeq has secured a five-year contract to …

        CTC Aviation is perfectly placed to support airlines and private jet operators as well as aspiring and qualified pilots around the globe. If you need innovative and …

        One is NZ rep for EADS Australia/Pacific – Feb 22, 2011 – Australian Aerospace Limited is a wholly-owned subsidiary of … which, in turn, is part of the European Aeronautic Defence & Space Group (EADS).

        The spokesperson is a member of CANSO. An organisation that has been going for 70 years from the USA.
        “The Mission of CANSO is to be the global voice of air traffic management (ATM) in the transformation of the aviation system; creating value for Members and our …”

        So they extend their influence all the way from the USA to little Paraparaumu in NZ
        and try and interfere in our safety systems for air traffic management.

        And just as a footnote I have family in the air industry and it is not one that pays well despite all the important training and modern scientific stuff and skill and self-control and surveillance to see that people haven’t been drinking etc. And it is not a stable industry, though it could be better. And the CAA don’t show up well in some of the searching that I have done. If anyone is interested in that, ask and I will look to see if I can find my links. But not till after christmas.

  9. Morrissey 9
    21 December 2014 at 10:49 am

    Wallace Chapman’s naïve stance is becoming an irritation
    Radio NZ National, Sunday 21 December 2014

    Hands up everyone who is deeply disappointed with the performance of Wallace Chapman on Radio New Zealand’s Sunday programme.

    I have listened to him on and off for many years now, on commercial radio, on television and occasionally fronting discussions on Radio NZ National. When I learned that he had been appointed to replace Chris Laidlaw, I feared that he would be too lightweight, too guileless, too “nice” to do a decent job.

    My concerns are, sadly, starting to materialize. Chris Laidlaw often disappointed, allowing moral reprobates like Lord Winston [1] and Peter Gluckman [2] to get away with telling the most brutal and vicious lies. But Laidlaw at least indicated his discomfort with what they were saying, often undermining them subtly with his trademark sceptical “hrrrumph”. Wallace Chapman, by contrast, is a pushover.

    A few months ago, Chapman conducted a simpering fan-boy interview with right wing author Lee Child, letting Child get away with the most outrageous statements. [3] Last Sunday, Chapman gave another free, uninterrupted platform to a person of dubious moral character; this time it was a notorious Israeli government apologist. [4]

    Today, he interviewed an altogether better person, an American doctor who is utterly disgusted with the complicity of so many of his confrères in torture and capital punishment. Chapman put on his ingénu hat, and asked the kind of question that you’d normally expect from a moral idiot like Leighton Smith or Jack Tame.

    I sent Wallace Chapman the following email…..

    The “moral authority” of the United States?

    Dear Wallace,
    You asked Dr James Welsh whether the latest revelation of the U.S. regime’s program of mass torture “will undermine the United States’ moral authority.”

    For a whole raft of reasons—from the crushing of independence movements in Cuba and the Philippines, the use of atomic weapons in 1945, the crushing of democracy in Vietnam, Indonesia, Iran, Guatemala, Chile, down to the ongoing harassment of Iran and Venezuela—the United States’ moral authority has been “undermined”, if not obliterated, by its actions for far longer than the horrifying abuse documented in the Senate Investigations Committee report. In 1986, the United States was found guilty in the International Court of Justice, of terrorism against Nicaragua.

    Your question betrays a distressing level of naïveté, to say the very least.

    Yours sincerely,

    Morrissey Breen
    Northcote Point

    You can put your hands down now.

    [1] http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-01082011/#comment-358776
    [2] http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-27032011/#comment-313255
    [3] http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-31082014/#comment-876904
    [4] http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-14122014/#comment-939764

    • phillip ure 9.1
      21 December 2014 at 5:14 pm

      i laughed when he stunned one of the shows’ commentators into silence..

      ..with his over-excited rendition of the fact that his favourite board game of all time..

      ..is snakes and ladders..

      ..said commentator was ;eft mumbling/grasping for some cliche along the lines of..’it’s kinda like life..ups and downs’..

      ..there was a brief silence after that call/response..

      ..(what was left to say..?..)

      ..and i am left with this indeligble image of a young wallace chapman..

      ..all tucked up in one of his collection of strange jerseys/jumpers..

      (possibly at this time of year he’s picked a yuletide themed one..?..

      ..reindeer..?..perchance..?..)

      ..and in a wee/twee dunedin living room..

      ..the gas fire spluttering/sighing away..

      ..the doilies all in their proper place..

      ..and playing snakes and ladders..

      ..while listening to michael buble..

      (it doesn’t get much better than that…on planet chapman..)

  10. DH 10
    21 December 2014 at 11:09 am

    “SkyCity ‘holds the cards’ in Govt negotiations – Labour’

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11377368

    Who is this David Clarke? He doesn’t seem to have a very good handle on negotiating, this Convention Centre stinks so much because SkyCity don’t hold any cards. You don’t need to be a good poker player to see that SkyCity need this deal far more than the Govt does.

    • Paul 10.1
      21 December 2014 at 11:14 am

      The government owes Sky City for donations
      The government has already given Sky City land
      The government has signed a contract in which …

      • DH 10.1.1
        21 December 2014 at 12:26 pm

        Do you mean the Government or the National Party?

        If the contract had been finalised there wouldn’t be any negotiations now, obviously it’s still ongoing.

        There’s nothing there that the Government is tied to, Labour need to wake up and starting putting the heat on else we’ll be stuck with SkyCity holding far too much power in Auck for the next 34 years.

        SkyCity’s casino licence is due for renewal in a few years. Without a licence their profits and share price would crash. They’re shit scared of facing a Greens/Labour Govt when negotiations over the licence renewal begin. We all know the Greens in particular are keen to curb gambling in general and it’s within the purview of the Govt to change the licence conditions, put it out to tender or even cancel it completely, when the existing one expires.

        This Convention Centre deal is largely about SkyCity securing their future well in advance of their licence expiring. They don’t hold any cards and more people need to start asking why this Govt is bending over backwards to do them favours.

        • Draco T Bastard 10.1.1.1
          21 December 2014 at 1:06 pm

          Thing is that it doesn’t matter if SkyCity holds the cards or not – this government will cave anyway as the whole point of the SkyCity deal was to give SkyCity lots of the communities money for nothing.

    • Murray Rawshark 10.2
      21 December 2014 at 11:55 pm

      Sadly typical of Labour since Rogernomics. He thinks negotiation is trying to give a business, especially a big one, as much as possible at the taxpayers’ expense.

  11. marty mars 11
    21 December 2014 at 11:37 am

    My 8 year old niece just yesterday had an operation (successful) to remove a tumour from her spine. My mum died in August. I just want to send my thoughts and love to all those facing the reality of death and dying. Whatever our belief or non-beliefs. Whatever our ethnicity or position in society.

    • Chooky 11.1
      21 December 2014 at 11:45 am

      +100 marty mars…i also know two people who are going through similar

      • Chooky 11.1.1
        21 December 2014 at 12:46 pm

        ‘New Scientist’ (online for this issue) has an interesting article on individually customising cancer treatment and beating Big Pharma costs for cancer treatment….although this is in the future

        http://www.newscientist.com/issue/2999

        “Biohacker Andrew Kessel’s open-source drug company aims to make bespoke cancer-fighting viruses using DNA printers – paid for by a Netflix-style subscription”

        Interesting that they can use the measles virus to attack cancer cells…

    • The Murphey 11.2
      21 December 2014 at 12:13 pm

      Namaste

    • RedLogix 11.3
      21 December 2014 at 12:21 pm

      Nothing worse than medical ‘adventures’ with your children marty. Good to hear the operation was a success.

      Thank you for letting your net whanau know. These things have a way of coming to home to roost at this time of year.

    • Manuka AOR 11.4
      21 December 2014 at 12:27 pm

      ” I just want to send my thoughts and love to all those facing the reality of death and dying. Whatever our belief or non-beliefs. Whatever our ethnicity or position in society.”

      That has to include the families of Katrina Dawson and Tori Johnson. Katrina died protecting a friend who was pregnant. Tori stayed on when he could have escaped. Tori’s dad waited nearby through the siege, then called his sister. He said, “my beautiful boy has died”, then he was unable to speak further and a police officer had to fill in the details. Despite his overwhelming grief, when Ken Johnson returned to Martin Place the next day, along with family members he brought with him a Sheik, two Rabbis, and a Hindu priest.

      ‘He brought the religious leaders together in a show of “solidarity”. To prove that peaceful humanity can work, that good things can eventually flow out or terrible circumstances.

      ‘ “So we keep the flow of the beautiful peace thing going, so we can show the rest of the world where it starts and I want it to continue,’’ he says.’
      http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/special-features/the-captain-of-the-ship-he-refused-to-leave/story-fnmx0wm1-1227161383857

    • batweka 11.5
      21 December 2014 at 12:30 pm

      thanks marty, much appreciated.

    • The Al1en 11.6
      21 December 2014 at 12:31 pm

      “I just want to send my thoughts and love to all those facing the reality of death and dying. Whatever our belief or non-beliefs. Whatever our ethnicity or position in society.”

      Nice sentiment

    • joe90 11.7
      21 December 2014 at 12:38 pm

      It’s been a rather trying year for the 90 whānau too Marty so your sentiments are much appreciated.

      Whakataka te hau ki te uru,
      Whakataka te hau ki te tonga.

      Kia mākinakina ki uta,
      Kia mātaratara ki tai.

      E hī ake ana te atākura he tio,
      he huka, he hauhunga.

      Haumi e! Hui e! Tāiki e!

      http://folksong.org.nz/whakataka_te_hau/

    • kenny 11.8
      21 December 2014 at 2:06 pm

      Death comes to all of us in the end; lets hope there is someone there to hold our hand and be there when that time comes.

    • Rosie 11.9
      21 December 2014 at 2:54 pm

      All the best for a fine and speedy recovery for your niece marty mars.

      So very sorry for the loss of your Mum. It can be a hard time of the year for those of us recently bereaved and for those us who remember the losses of people we loved. I know I think of those I’ve lost, especially when the new year comes. I hope your family and yourself keep happy memories of your Mum alive in your hearts, and find some peace and happiness somewhere over this busy festive time.

      Arohanui.

    • tracey 11.10
      21 December 2014 at 7:39 pm

      best wishes for her recovery and some decent sleep for her parents.

      condolences for the loss of your mum. we marked 25 years since my own mums death a few days ago… she has now been dead longer than I knew her… still miss her.

    • Murray Rawshark 11.11
      22 December 2014 at 12:00 am

      Hope your niece gets well soon.

      I was at a picnic for refugees yesterday and a friend asked me if my thinking had changed since I’d faced death. I replied that I had never thought that I was facing death.

    • McFlock 11.12
      22 December 2014 at 12:10 am

      jeez.
      Good luck for your niece, and I hope 2015 is better for you.

  12. Chooky 12
    21 December 2014 at 11:43 am

    Why we should NOT be going into war against ISIS and why NOT one drop of NZers soldier blood should be spent fighting this war….it is a fucking mess!

    …. of USA’s making and probably Israels’ making …For example Is it true that USA funded the rebels who became ISIS?….Is it true that Israel has been hospitalising and looking after wounded ISIS fighters? Assad and the Government of Syria has been fighting ISIS.

    ….Why Turkey is caught in the middle of conflicting USA policy changes on ISIS

    http://rt.com/shows/crosstalk/215863-turkey-nato-eu-policy/

    “Which way Turkey? Ankara is a NATO member, with at the same time getting close to Russia. Turkey will probably never be part of the EU, but its foreign policy influence is set to grow in this volatile Middle East. Turkey has options, but what about friends? CrossTalking with Joshua Landis, Dan Arbell and Mark Sleboda.”

    • The Al1en 12.1
      21 December 2014 at 11:56 am

      The women and girls raped, tortured, killed and/or taken as bounty of war to be disposed of as chattel thank you for your support.

      • The Murphey 12.1.1
        21 December 2014 at 12:16 pm

        Q. Are you satirical commentator?

        • The Al1en 12.1.1.1
          21 December 2014 at 12:22 pm

          No, just a humanitarian with a cutting edge.

          I don’t think NZ should be involved in amerika’s unilateral wars, but do think the UN should be peace keeping it’s arse off in Iraq and Syria or wherever the vulnerable are being so abused, protecting the basic human rights of women and children we take, or some of us, apparently, take for granted.

          If we are prepared to write off that human suffering because of our own idealogical bias, then we are no better than the murderers and rapists of isis.

          • The Murphey 12.1.1.1.1
            21 December 2014 at 12:31 pm

            Q. Can you list the areas of ‘priority’ as you see them in need of some ‘UN peacekeeping’?

            Q. What is your opinion on ‘UN Peacekeeping’ record of rape and murder?

            • The Al1en 12.1.1.1.1.1
              21 December 2014 at 12:41 pm

              Make a list priorities, no I couldn’t, I’m way too ignorant, and the list is bound to be subjective based on definition of need, but in relation to protecting women and children from fates described above, the context, Syria, Iraq, Nigeria immediately spring to mind.
              If you want to add to the list, do so by all means. I’m sure it’ll be a tome of shame by the time it’s compiled, but then not as shameful as those who won’t do anything about it because of their own ideological bent.

              The fact that rape and murder of innocents are still used as weapons in conflict, I’d say the record probably isn’t very good at all. I guess it depends on whether you think the world should give up on those poor people as the UN hasn’t got a track record to boast about, but those women and kids are still pained and wronged, so I think anything done to alleviate is better than heads in sand.

          • Murray Rawshark 12.1.1.1.2
            22 December 2014 at 12:10 am

            The word is ideological and Chooky did none of what you allege. You could maybe try not being a prick for Christmas. That’d be humanitarian, even if far more difficult.

      • Chooky 12.1.2
        21 December 2014 at 12:32 pm

        @ The Allen @ 12.1….yes and I guess they also thank USA and Israel for destabilising the region and supporting the rebels which became ISIS in the first place

        I repeat … Is it true that USA funded the rebels who became ISIS?….Is it true that Israel has been hospitalising and looking after wounded ISIS fighters? Assad and the Government of Syria has been fighting ISIS. Is it true USA and Israel have been supporting the destabilisation of Assad and Syria?

        • The Al1en 12.1.2.1
          21 December 2014 at 12:46 pm

          Irrelevant , but no doubt, as there’s elements of truth in the statement, but you writing them off after the fact is still noted.

          When the Kurdish women were on TV pleading for help from anyone to save their skins, their futures, what did you do? Turn off, turn over or spit out that blame the americans hand washing line?

          • Chooky 12.1.2.1.1
            21 December 2014 at 12:48 pm

            Irrelevant ?…NO!

            • The Al1en 12.1.2.1.1.1
              21 December 2014 at 12:49 pm

              In the here and now to those women being held captive or facing another rape, or being forced into a marriage with the bloke who killed her parents, yes, totally irrelevant.

              • Chooky …
                21 December 2014 at 1:00 pm

                the subject is who caused ISIS to form?… and hence caused this suffering …. and who have and are still are supporting ISIS?

                who funds terrorist organisations like ISIS?..expert of the terrorist financial world, Loretta Napoleoni interviewed:

                ‘No terrorist group can survive unless some govt finances it – terror economy expert”

                http://rt.com/shows/sophieco/214403-terrorism-business-money-jihad/

                • The Al1en …
                  21 December 2014 at 1:06 pm

                  The subject is the innocent women and children caught up in the worlds end game and privileged westerners, in your case, writing off their suffering as a consequence of american international meddling.

                  I don’t care who started the war, my concern is with the innocents on both side. Your’s it seems, from you callous attitude, is to apportion us blame and close your eyes to the suffering going on.

                  And you plus one hundreded all over mhager’s feminist thread. 🙄

                  • Chooky …
                    21 December 2014 at 2:37 pm

                    @ The Allen….i do NOT write off their suffering…how dare you try and put this accusation on me!…you are completely trying to subvert my arguments

                    …I really distrust your motives here sometimes…obfuscation of serious issues in the service of the right wing …i would NOT want my son going off to war against ISIS when the USA and Israel are behind the causes of ISIS !…and perhaps still supporting it …these are the questions I asked …why should NZers lives be squandered in something which is NOT our war?

                    …and truly if you will not and dont want to look at the real underlying causes of the suffering of women and children (and men) in the Middle East war zones….. I DOUBT very much that you REALLY do care for these women and children and men ….for you it is all slick clever arguments, cheap shots and nasty undermining accusations of not caring about women and children…for you the very real suffering of women and children and men in the Middle East is just so much collateral damage and crocodile tears

                    …for you it is lets ignore the real ongoing underlying causes of ISIS, lets not rock the boat here , lets keep it hidden and in place and lets sacrifice young New Zealanders as well!

                    …nah!

                    • greywarshark …
                      21 December 2014 at 4:02 pm

                      @ Chooky
                      I don’t think The Allen deserves all that. You get very fervent about what you want to happen which is the same for all I should think. But it is a different argument thinking about how to improve conditions in the present with present thinking and dynamics.

                    • The Al1en …
                      21 December 2014 at 8:05 pm

                      That’ll teach me to go into work on a sunday 🙂

                      Chooky – You’re a sycophantic +100ing arsehat. Dozy and despicable, a winning combination. 🙄

                      Daraco T Bastard – If that’s meant for me, whose imposing values on anyone? Women and children are not war bounty, any rational mind would see that, if you believe it’s okay because it’s a cultural thing, then what a croc of shit, and what a wanker you turned out to be.

                      Stephanie Rodgers – Well you won’t be sending anyone anywhere, you’re just a hanger on getting titillated by the circle of friends you keep. Pulp – common people 😉
                      The plight of women doesn’t just get bought up to support the us, not by me anyway, I’m a consistent sort of bloke, and my solidarity with put upon women was honed from watching my abusive father satiate his anger an power trip on my mother. I’m quite shocked you would put your anti american bias ahead of real women in real need. I guess it shows what a plastic fantastic you are in your middle class life. A bit of a shocker, sister.

                      And if you’re going to get all fucking precious about being called out, tough shit. I’ll walk before the ban, but just as long as we all know what a fucking fraud you are, as if we didn’t already, it’s worth it. 😉

                      [RL: These are difficult discussions that touch everyone at some level. A bit of blowback is almost inevitable and I’m no stranger to it myself. But tomorrow is another day – and another thread. Worth keeping that in mind. ]

                    • The Al1en …
                      21 December 2014 at 9:38 pm

                      I appreciate your input RL
                      I’m all good, and just about done with it all anyway.

                      Just like the thread about housing and overcrowding where parents with too many kids were labelled idiots, or like how some dolies spend their benefit money on drink or drugs while kids go hungry, or who started the war in the middle east in the first place, I don’t care who’s to blame, it’s the children and the innocent that I care about above and beyond. Sod labels being attached, sod cliques and power users and most of all sod off plastic socialists who spit out put downs out of one side of their mouth at the expense of the vulnerable and then have the front to mutter right on for the sake of it lefty pc bollocks out of the other.

                      Now breathe and relax and settle. Easy and done 🙂

                    • batweka …
                      21 December 2014 at 10:56 pm

                      “Sod labels being attached, sod cliques and power users and most of all sod off plastic socialists”

                      lolz 🙄

                  • Draco T Bastard …
                    21 December 2014 at 3:54 pm

                    Actually, the subject is your stupidity in trying to impose your values upon another society. Yes, they need to accept women as equals and to stop mistreating them but we can’t force them to do that and trying to do so just creates more of the fanatics that are causing the grief that you want to stop.

                    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

                    It is time for the own good people to stand up to the fanatics. When that happens is when their society will begin to change. The West imposing its will upon them will ensure that that necessary change wont happen.

                    • Chooky …
                      21 December 2014 at 4:16 pm

                      +100 DTB…and USA and Israel created this Middle East mess …if anyone is to clean it up they should clean it up! …not New Zealand

                      …Israel and USA can send their own men and women soldiers in to fight ISIS and protect the Kurdish women and the Iraq women and the Libyan women and the Syrian women and children ….and the innocent men of the Middle East …but they wont because they created the de-stabilised mess in the first place in Iraq, Libya, Syria….all places where ISIS now operates …and the end game for USA and Israel is to get rid of Assad and then take on Iran…and then maybe Russia

                      ….I seem to remember Hillary Clinton and others saying the USA should be in Afghanistan to protect the women and children …it is a wolf- in- sheeps clothing argument …..they were not there for the women and children …and as soon as it suited them the USA announced it was getting out …very little of the promised long term economic and other support for Afghanistan has eventuated

                    • RedLogix …
                      21 December 2014 at 9:03 pm

                      A tough discussion DtB.

                      While it’s clearly counterproductive to send in troops to try and change backward, medieval behaviours in other cultures – I’m very sympathetic to Al1en’s position.

                      It seems to me that the stupidity in trying to impose your values upon another society argument far too easily becomes an excuse for the liberal left in the West to ignore the deplorable, dismal position of hundreds of millions of women and children in much of the world – while tying itself in knots over some stupid dudes wolf-whistling.

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      21 December 2014 at 9:22 pm

                      Saudi Arabia’s elite has been developing, funding and disseminating extremist Islam around the world for a few decades now.

                      And who keeps them in power? Who gives them billions of dollars a week for oil? Who sells them advanced weapons and gives them political protection internally and also legitimacy around the world?

                      The west does, of course.

                    • greywarshark …
                      21 December 2014 at 10:19 pm

                      CR 9.22 pm
                      I read that Bush helped his Saudi friends to go home before a clampdown on flying after 9/11, so was it politic to invade just anywhere else to shake the big stick? To get attention away from Saudis.

                      Some info from wikipedia.
                      Their sect of Wahhabism has been accused of being “a source of global terrorism”,[27][28] and for causing disunity in the Muslim community by labeling non-Wahhabi Muslims as apostates[29] (takfir) thus paving the way for their bloodshed.[30][31][32] It has also been criticized for the destruction of historic mazaars, mausoleums, and other Muslim and non-Muslim buildings and artifacts.

                      There was the difficulty with Osama bin Laden’s family being close to the Saudi royal family. But he was bad publicity for them.
                      Bin Laden was born to the family of billionaire Mohammed bin Awad bin Laden in Saudi Arabia. He studied at university in the country until 1979, when he joined mujahideen forces in Pakistan fighting against the Soviet Union in Afghanistan. He helped to fund the mujahideen by funneling arms, money and fighters from the Arab world into Afghanistan,

                      In 1988, he formed al-Qaeda.[10] He was banished from Saudi Arabia in 1992, and shifted his base to Sudan, until U.S. pressure forced him to leave Sudan in 1996. After establishing a new base in Afghanistan, he declared a war against the United States, initiating a series of bombings and related attacks

                      Bin Laden’s father Mohammed died in 1967 in an airplane crash in Saudi Arabia when his American pilot misjudged a landing.[45] Bin Laden’s eldest half-brother, Salem bin Laden, the subsequent head of the bin Laden family, was killed in 1988 near San Antonio, Texas, in the United States, when he accidentally flew a plane into power lines.

                      The Saudis and the USA were closely intertwined. And interestingly enough, an American pilot was responsible for Bin Laden’s father’s death and his eldest half-brother killed himself in the USA. So there was a lot of bad history between USA and his family.

                    • batweka …
                      21 December 2014 at 11:03 pm

                      “It seems to me that the stupidity in trying to impose your values upon another society argument far too easily becomes an excuse for the liberal left in the West to ignore the deplorable, dismal position of hundreds of millions of women and children in much of the world – while tying itself in knots over some stupid dudes wolf-whistling.”

                      I might have some sympathy for that if I believed that Western countries gave a shit about women’s rights beyond how they serve capitalism.

                      Easy solution. Put resources into the women’s movements in the countries you are concerned about. Including resources here on ts. So instead of all the ad hominems and bullshit comparisons, we could be having a conversation about specific countries and which organisations in those countries need support and details on how to support them.

                      Put your money (or whatever you have) where your mouth is.

                      As an aside, the argument you just made about real women’s problems vs silly western women’s ones is the equivalent of saying we should stfu about poverty in NZ while people are starving in Africa.

                    • RedLogix …
                      21 December 2014 at 11:36 pm

                      @batweka

                      Because I’m guessing there are some women in the world who look at issues which absorb so much feminist time and energy in the Western world – and shake their heads in bafflement, perhaps even despair.

                      Which leads directly on to my often made point that the left (as a big fat generalisation) has pretty much abdicated awareness and action on a global scale – and left to the corporations to reserve it for themselves.

                    • batweka …
                      21 December 2014 at 11:46 pm

                      Not quite following you there Red. Are you speaking for a group of women who are baffled about how western feminists prioritise their time? Why are you focussed on western feminists as opposed to other people who presumably should be giving a shit abotu Iraqi women? Do you know what western feminist involvement is? Or were you just meaning feminists here in this discussion?

                      “Which leads directly on to my often made point that the left (as a big fat generalisation) has pretty much abdicated awareness and action on a global scale – and left to the corporations to reserve it for themselves.”

                      That’s fine, and it’s been coming up lately so perhaps someone will do a post in it and we can thrash it out.

                      In the meantime, I think you are asking for trouble when you use women’s issues as a way into that conversation. Better to go straight at it.

                  • greywarshark …
                    21 December 2014 at 4:40 pm

                    @ The Allen
                    When it comes to referring to feminism rational discussion tends to go. So you obviously don’t care about talking rationally about these innocent women and children overseas to other innocent women here in NZ.

                    I don’t know why I bother to talk to you, you need to be lunged with a long rein. You are too young, whatever temporal age you may be, to take notice of until you learn some mature thought and ways, until then it’s a case of showing tolerance.

      • Stephanie Rodgers 12.1.3
        21 December 2014 at 4:30 pm

        Oh goody, so we’re going to send troops to Saudi Arabia too? How about the Catholic Church?

        Oh, what’s that? The plight of women and children only comes up when we need an excuse to support the US in more imperialist BS? Funny, that.

        • Draco T Bastard 12.1.3.1
          21 December 2014 at 5:12 pm

          +111

        • Chooky 12.1.3.2
          21 December 2014 at 10:28 pm

          @Stephanie Rogers …I have to agree …lets sort out our sexist misogynist ‘friends’ in Saudi Arabia and the Vatican first ….and I remember when this argument of protecting womens’ rights was pulled by the Americans for going into Afghanistan a very brave and prominent Afghan feminist told them that they were making it worse for the women in Afghanistan and to go home

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_War_on_Terror

          Co-opted Feminism [for support on the ‘War on Terror’]

          Issues of gender quality and abuse against women were an integral part of the rhetoric supporting the War on Terror. For instance, in a conference with Russian President Vladimir Putin, then-President George W. Bush described the Taliban Government as follows: “[T]here’s no question the Taliban is the most repressive, backward group of people we have seen on the face of the Earth in a long period of time, including and particularly how they treat women.”[52] Such statements support Norwegian feminist scholar Berit von der Lippe’s claim that protecting women and children is a common part of war rhetoric and has always been so. For her, “[n]ation-states today have added the use of gender equality rhetoric, or a specific feminist rhetoric, to this scenario in order to mobilize support for war.”[53] This argument is further supported by other feminists, such as Angela Davis — a Black feminist and anti-racist scholar — who critiqued this as a hijacking of feminism in order to promote military aggression and dubbed it as the George and Laura Bush version of feminism.[54] For these scholars, the idea of America invading other countries in order to liberate Muslim women is part of a frame of mind which hierarchizes cultures. According to scholar Sherene Razack, “saving Muslim women from the excesses of their society marks Western men and women as more civilized.”[55] In other words, the War on Terror had the rhetorical basis of a civilizing mission – America had to bring ‘modernity’ to the Middle East.

          https://www.opendemocracy.net/5050/meredith-tax/antis-antiimperialist-or-antifeminist-0

          • The Al1en 12.1.3.2.1
            21 December 2014 at 10:42 pm

            +100 🙄

            “a very brave and prominent Afghan feminist told them that they were making it worse for the women in Afghanistan and to go home”

            Apart from the sycophantic suck up to a no one, how is that in any way relevant to the really really brave fighting Kurdish women asking for help from the world to protect them, their families and way of life from the evil at their doors? Clue, it isn’t, not at all.

            Big question.
            Doing nothing to help, like you want, will make it easier or worse for those women and kids?

            • Stephanie Rodgers 12.1.3.2.1.1
              21 December 2014 at 10:58 pm

              Stop using women and children as an excuse for imperialist military intervention which will literally only make the problem worse (see also: Afghanistan).

              • The Al1en …
                21 December 2014 at 11:09 pm

                See also: What a twat. 🙄

                I don’t support the us, oppose their unilateral wars and never have. I have stated it here on a few occasions too, long before you graced us with your presence (they’ll be in the archives if you’re that interested), so you can drop the supporter of imperial army bullshit framing, love.
                I do support un backed intervention to protect the vulnerable. Are you claiming on record as a pundit or possibly drunk privateer that the un is an imperial war machine?

                As for the using women, again I’ve explained my background, where I developed my world view in a real world situation, which should have gone some way to show my motive and intention.
                I don’t use women, never have and never will, so you should retract that statement.

                • batweka …
                  21 December 2014 at 11:30 pm

                  “I don’t support the us, oppose their unilateral wars and never have. I have stated it here on a few occasions too, long before you graced us with your presence (they’ll be in the archives if you’re that interested), so you can drop the supporter of imperial army bullshit framing, love.
                  I do support un backed intervention to protect the vulnerable.”

                  Probably would have helped then if when you first replied to Chooky’s original comment about the USA and ISIS you had clarified you didn’t really mean the USA at all. And then not hijacked her thread for your own agenda. Plenty of space on ts if you want to talk about the plight of women and children in Iraq/Syria.

                  (might help if you stopped trolebaiting everyone too. If you want a break from ts, have a go at lynn).

                  • The Al1en …
                    22 December 2014 at 7:01 am

                    “Probably would have helped then if when you first replied to Chooky’s original comment about the USA and ISIS you had clarified you didn’t really mean the USA at all.”

                    Because some dumb fucks can’t read the second post for all the red mist in front of their eyes, I take shit for it? Nope, that bollocks.
                    http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-21122014/#comment-942743

                    “And then not hijacked her thread for your own agenda.”

                    Look up thread and you’ll see that on open mic the topic can’t be derailed and hijacked, apparently. Stop with the double standards. Haven’t we talked about that before?

                    “Plenty of space on ts if you want to talk about the plight of women and children in Iraq/Syria.”

                    Doing that, thanks. How about you, the great femme fickle, start practising what you preach. Or are you like steph and chooky? Content to shit on other women to preserve your own right on comrade agendas?

                    “(might help if you stopped trolebaiting everyone too.”

                    What a fucking lol merchant you are. Shove your faux concern up your tradesman’s. Too ironic that, given how every topic has you in it splitting hairs and usually being a pedant for the cause. Creep.

                    “If you want a break from ts, have a go at lynn).'”

                    Why would I have a go at Lynn? If I want a break from the TS I’d take one. Just because, unlike some here, I’m not afraid of “the power imbalance” and will call out a phoney when I see one, why have a moan at someone worthy of respect?
                    But thanks for the advice.

                    • batweka …
                      22 December 2014 at 1:04 pm

                      Look up thread and you’ll see that on open mic the topic can’t be derailed and hijacked, apparently. Stop with the double standards. Haven’t we talked about that before?

                      That was Stephanie speaking from the position of a ts author (I think) and was a reply to you giving her shit and expecting to get penalised for it. Nothing to do with me.

                      You DID hijack Chooky’s thread, it’s pretty bloody plain to see. She wanted to talk about ISIS and the US’s involvement in it, you decided to use that as a way to have a go at everyone for not holding your beliefs about middle eastern politics and women.

                      (Stephanie and I aren’t part of the hive mind, so my standards and her’s aren’t double. Slow down and apply some rational thought there).

                      Doing that, thanks. How about you, the great femme fickle, start practising what you preach. Or are you like steph and chooky? Content to shit on other women to preserve your own right on comrade agendas?

                      “(might help if you stopped trolebaiting everyone too.”

                      What a fucking lol merchant you are. Shove your faux concern up your tradesman’s. Too ironic that, given how every topic has you in it splitting hairs and usually being a pedant for the cause. Creep.

                      Not sure what is going on with you, but that and other comments from yesterday are definitely stepping over a line. I didn’t get involved for most of yesterday because something was bothering me about your comments and I wanted to watch the thread unfold and see if I could figure it out. It’s this. Your concern for women is selective. I’ve seen you write some great stuff about the woman in your workplace. I’ve also seen you attack feminists here on ts (not just their politics but the people themselves). There’s a real contradiction there.

                      It strikes me that you champion women who you perceive of as victims. Women that are challenging your views in ways you can’t tolerate are then categorised negatively and in a gendered way, and this characterisation is used to undermine any points being made (we’re chardonnay feminists etc). I was really surprised at some of your comments yesterday, but I now think it’s a good thing to have this out in the open.

                      “If you want a break from ts, have a go at lynn).’”

                      Why would I have a go at Lynn? If I want a break from the TS I’d take one. Just because, unlike some here, I’m not afraid of “the power imbalance” and will call out a phoney when I see one, why have a moan at someone worthy of respect?
                      But thanks for the advice.

                      Here’s what you said to Stephanie, a ts author,

                      “And if you’re going to get all fucking precious about being called out, tough shit. I’ll walk before the ban, but just as long as we all know what a fucking fraud you are, as if we didn’t already, it’s worth it.”

                      That sounds like someone on the verge of trole suicide to me.

                      So. I’m naming it. You’re treatment of women in this thread is appalling. I have no doubt that if there were men challenging you in this thread in a way you couldn’t tolerate you would be nasty to them as well, but nevertheless, you are doing specifically gendered attacks, including on women for being feminist.

                      I think you are better than this, and like I said I don’t know what is going on with you. Something is ramping up. Everyone else is always wrong you are always right. Women who don’t agree with you are twats, creeps, faux feminists, feminist frauds etc.

                      I expect nothing but more abuse from you now, so these comments are really signalling to other people here what I am thinking and naming.

                    • The Al1en …
                      22 December 2014 at 1:09 pm

                      Didn’t read past the first lie in the first paragraph, love. 🙂

                      http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-21122014/#comment-942821

                    • batweka …
                      22 December 2014 at 1:16 pm

                      I’m not Stephanie.

                      edit, that’s not a lie, it’s a mistake (ha ha I mistook you for PG). You really do seem to be having difficulty with these kinds of concepts at the moment.

                      Nevertheless, you did hijack Chooky’s thread (and Stephanie’s comment was apparently nothing to do with that, thanks for pointing that out).

                    • The Al1en …
                      22 December 2014 at 1:20 pm

                      Call her out for diverting and hijacking then. 😉

                      But seriously, I have no respect for you, so don’t bother on my account.
                      I’m happy to accept double standards is your thing.
                      I’m going to do a pu and ignore you from now on. You’re caustic and in my opinion, a little too unstable to have a reasoned debate with. It’s not worth the effort/risk/reward ratio.
                      Time you let me go too.

                    • batweka …
                      22 December 2014 at 1:36 pm

                      Well that’s sad. Obviously I’m not this terrible person you are portaying me as so this is really about your own feelings and inability to deal with the challenges laid down in debate. We’ve had some good conversations in the past, and the potential for that still exists as far as I am concerned.

                      As I said, my comment was for others and just to name what I am seeing you do. Even if you leave me out of it, there’s plenty there in how you are relating to others.

                • Chooky …
                  22 December 2014 at 9:08 am

                  @ The Allen …you seem to think you are a better feminist than NZ women feminists …you presume none of the NZ feminists who comment here have any life experience apart from being middle class “plastic socialists”…get real!

                  …You pontificate on how your father treated your mother as if this gives you greater authenticity and standing as a feminist to laud it morally over all the other NZ feminists here who have a voice and a point of view and who you undermine just short of abuse….however I would suggest that many feminists here have a far greater and more intimate knowledge of what it means to be female and second class and on the receiving end of sexism and misogyny than you ever will …and they have a far greater history of feminist activism for women’s rights than you…

                  (i note you gave Mandy Hager’s Post on feminism absolutely no support or comment…imo this is indicative in itself as to where you stand)

                  …I have met colonialist Brits or Poms before who think New Zealand is some sort of backward lower class place where most women and Maori are intellectually and morally inferior…. and the men are passive pawns to be sent off to fight imperialist wars with impunity …they get enraged when NZers have a voice and use it and stand up to them …how dare they! ( they bring their class system with them in their heads) ….NZ has a history of such colonial attitudes

                  …even today we get such Poms , who were of no real consequence in Britain …but perhaps because of this … once here they like to laud it over NZers….and NZ feminists

                  • The Al1en …
                    22 December 2014 at 12:01 pm

                    “@ The Allen …you seem to think you are a better feminist than NZ women feminists …you presume none of the NZ feminists who comment here have any life experience apart from being middle class “plastic socialists”…get real!”

                    That’s not what I’ve written at all. I have said that if you don’t accept that forces should protect the women and children from isis, because it’s not ‘our war’, then it makes you hypocrites and double standard flyers.
                    The middle class dig was a Ms Rodgers, because she’s a fake.

                    “…You pontificate on how your father treated your mother as if this gives you greater authenticity and standing as a feminist to laud it morally over all the other NZ feminists here who have a voice and a point of view and who you undermine just short of abuse….however I would suggest that many feminists here have a far greater and more intimate knowledge of what it means to be female and second class and on the receiving end of sexism and misogyny than you ever will …and they have a far greater history of feminist activism for women’s rights than you…”

                    No, I used the example of my abusive father to give background to why comments like “using women and children as an excuse for imperialist military intervention” are well off the mark. The rest is your flawed interpretation. Cool story, but nothing to do with me or my comments. But pontificate, – Like I wrote, dozy and despicable.

                    “@ The Allen ….I am not suggesting nothing is done…I am saying at the beginning of this thread ( which you hijacked)”

                    Established up thread that open mic can’t be hijacked. And it wasn’t a thread, it was a comment, which I responded to. You just don’t like where it went because it also exposes you as a fraud like all the others who will sacrifice those women’s basic human rights for ideology.

                    “that NZ should NOT be sending in troops to fight ISIS…the ISIS ruthless fighter rebels of which have been, and possibly still are, backed by USA and Israel in order to destabilize Syria and oust Assad”

                    So before you spit out some more bullshit, show me where I’ve argued NZ troops should fight isis. Anywhere, any comment in any topic will do.

                    “If the Israelis and the Americans want to in put troops on the ground in order to protect the brave Kurdish women, who have asked for support , then go ahead …but I am of the opinion the USA and Israel would be too gutless to send their own troops to fight ISIS…they would prefer to send in the likes of young New Zealanders to clean up their mess and run the risk of death ( like all imperialists).”

                    And that’s the nail on the head, the point you are oblivious to and it’s still as fucking irrelevant today as it was yesterday. Who’s job is it to help and protect the women and children of iraq and syria? You bury your head in the sand and ignore the plight of those living in daily fear, but I won’t. And I’ve no problem going toe to toe with any nugget on here who confuses a concern for the vulnerable with making points about us military might and expansionism.

                    • Chooky …
                      22 December 2014 at 12:10 pm

                      good …well i expect YOU will be off to fight ISIS in Iraq and Syria to protect the women and children there …I would expect nothing less of you!

                      …and I might also suggest you look at who created the de-stabilisation in the Middle East and the problem of ISIS in the first place and work to bring that to world attention …and work to bring an end to it!

                    • The Al1en …
                      22 December 2014 at 12:21 pm

                      “…and I might also suggest you look at who created the de-stabilisation in the Middle East and the problem of ISIS in the first place and work to bring that to world attention …and work to bring an end to it!”

                      For fucks sake, dozy, who started the war isn’t my concern at all. How many fucking times do I have to write it down, only for you to ignore it and carry on talking shit? 🙄

                      “good …well i expect YOU will be off to fight ISIS in Iraq and Syria to protect the women and children there …I would expect nothing less of you!”

                      Apart from you obviously missing the news bit about wannabe foreign fighters not being allowed to travel, that’s a pathetic argument. Just because I don’t jump on a plane to physically fight for at risk women I’ll be seen as a cop out bullshitter. 😆 Like just because I don’t fill up the spare room with homeless people I can’t care about people sleeping rough. 🙄 Or because I don’t buy lunch for every hungry kid I’m a fake for saying I care. Do you proof read before you post?
                      If I do nothing else, at least I’m raising a voice on their behalf, unlike you, who are happy to condemn them to their fate because it’s not your problem.
                      You should be ashamed of yourself, lady.

                      Anyway, shouldn’t you be off ingratiating yourself and +100ing somewhere?
                      Unless you change your attitude there’s nothing here for you except condemnation.

            • Chooky 12.1.3.2.1.2
              22 December 2014 at 9:22 am

              @ The Allen ….I am not suggesting nothing is done…I am saying at the beginning of this thread ( which you hijacked) that NZ should NOT be sending in troops to fight ISIS…the ISIS ruthless fighter rebels of which have been, and possibly still are, backed by USA and Israel in order to destabilize Syria and oust Assad

              If the Israelis and the Americans want to in put troops on the ground in order to protect the brave Kurdish women, who have asked for support , then go ahead …but I am of the opinion the USA and Israel would be too gutless to send their own troops to fight ISIS…..they would prefer to send in the likes of young New Zealanders to clean up their mess and run the risk of death ( like all imperialists)

            • Chooky 12.1.3.2.1.3
              22 December 2014 at 6:49 pm

              @ The Allen re “Apart from the sycophantic suck up to a no one, how is that in any way relevant to the really really brave fighting Kurdish women asking for help from the world to protect them, their families and way of life from the evil at their doors? Clue, it isn’t, not at all…..

              …here is the Afghani woman you refer to as a “no one” …and sorry the US invasion did not help Afghani women

              ‘Malalai Joya: The woman who will not be silenced’

              http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/malalai-joya-the-woman-who-will-not-be-silenced-1763127.html

              “Most people in the West have been led to believe that the intolerance and brutality towards women in Afghanistan began with the Taliban regime. But this is a lie. Many of the worst atrocities were committed by the fundamentalist mujahedin during the civil war between 1992 and 1996. They introduced the laws oppressing women followed by the Taliban – and now they were marching back to power, backed by the United States. They immediately went back to their old habit of using rape to punish their enemies and reward their fighters.”…

              • The Al1en …
                22 December 2014 at 7:21 pm

                Geez you’re dense. Or is it more deliberate misrepresentation again?

                I never referred to that woman as a no one nor implied you sycophantically sucked up to her.
                Read it again, or don’t, but do do one. 🙂

    • Draco T Bastard 12.2
      21 December 2014 at 1:16 pm

      For example Is it true that USA funded the rebels who became ISIS?

      Probably. They’ve been financing and training all sorts of fanatics in the area for decades. Al Qaeda are the most prominent but there’s been others to.

  13. Chooky 13
    21 December 2014 at 11:51 am

    On Wallace Chapman’s Sunday Morning a look is taken at doctors involved in torture in light of the recent CIA torture revelations

    ” Following the explosive revelations in the recent report on CIA torture, Wayne looks at some of its little-discussed aspects. Wallace follows up with medical ethics expert, Dr. James Welsh.”

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/sunday/audio/20161897/wayne-brittenden's-counterpoint

    • Once wasTim 13.1
      21 December 2014 at 3:11 pm

      yep @ chooky. What dismayed me most was the probability (whether by ICJ or other) that they’ll never be brought to account – AT LEAST not under the current regime (Which I happen to believe is not one that’s sustainable)

  14. Clemgeopin 14
    21 December 2014 at 12:08 pm

    Our rock star economy in action:

    “That combination means the yarn, which cannot be patented, has to be spun into very highly-priced items indeed: $500 for a wrap, and $900 for a sweater.

    Drysdale says as well as Untouched World selling garments here and in Australia, the yarn will be marketed to global luxury brand manufacturers, who will sell their garments for $5000-$6000.

    And there are buyers. New Zealand’s unequal wealth distribution has seen the rise of an elite class of moneyed Kiwi, and Drysdale says that makes it easier for a New Zealand luxury garment company like Untouched World whose products is beyond the reach of the masses”

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/luxury/64328090/fashion-queen-weaves-good-yarn

    • Ergo Robertina 14.1
      21 December 2014 at 5:54 pm

      It’s good the reporter Rob Stock highlighted NZ’s unequal wealth distribution in what would otherwise be a soft business story.

    • batweka 15.1
      21 December 2014 at 12:46 pm

      So McCulloch allows witnesses to testify when he knows that they are lying because,

      “If I didn’t put those witnesses on, then we’d be discussing now why I didn’t put those witnesses on,” McCulloch said on Friday. “Even though their statements were not accurate. So my determination was to put everybody on and let the grand jurors assess their credibility, which they did.”

      aka I’d rather let liars testify rather than having to explain later why I refused to let liars testify.

      “Rotten to the core”

      Yep, let’s see what happens to this fuckwit now.

  16. greywarshark 16
    21 December 2014 at 1:06 pm

    I like this piece from the article on Kapua yarn. Clever R&D example. More is needed.

    Drysdale is convinced innovation is the key to a flourishing New Zealand garment industry. Since its launch, Merino and possum knitwear has contributed an estimated $1 billion to $1.5b in foreign exchange to the New Zealand economy, she said.

    John Key gave a jersey to Obama which caused a spike in sales. So his USA input has been useful at that level.

  17. greywarshark 17
    21 December 2014 at 1:23 pm

    I should have connected my comment about merino yarn at 16 properly with Clemgeopin at 14.

  18. greywarshark 18
    21 December 2014 at 3:30 pm

    @ b waghorn
    Here is some interesting stuff. Too much information? A good story can be rivetting, and this is bigger than a good story.

    I feel that there is a presence (5 Eyes connected?) to our forces operations in NZ. We have had a Tuhoe raid of seriously intimidating nature based on covert surveillance and suspicion and conjecture. Why did they not front up and talk to their local liaison person and converse face to face, no guns?

    Then there have been two I think, armed forces maneouvres in NZ one involving the USA NZ and probably Australian plus others. The last was in Timaru in 2013 and was an international one.

    (The scenario was this.)
    http://snoopman.wordpress.com/2013/11/11/exercise-southern-katipo-2013-a-comic-book-war-game-script/
    The Southern Katipo scenario envisaged escalating tensions wherein Mainlandia was “teetering on the brink of an ethnic-fuelled civil war” between the Bekarans and the Alpirians. According to the New Zealand Defence Force’s press release, the conflict had arisen following a recent election, because the prime minister of Mainlandia refused to step down (rather than either ethnicity actually using their enemies as fire accelerants in the “ethnic-fuelled civil war”).[iii]

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11155299
    11/11/2013
    After 29 members of the ‘Mainlandia Defence Force’ were killed in a supposed ‘training accident’ in 2010, ethnic tension has erupted between the imagined ‘Bekaran’ and ‘Alpirian’ regions.
    Peace talks failed and now a New Zealand-led task force has been sent to the region, arriving by air and sea, in Timaru – the centre of the Bekara region.
    The soldiers, sailors, and airmen have been told to restore law and order.

    Today, ominously-grey warships sat in Timaru harbour and giant US Air Force C-17 Globemasters sat on the tarmac at the local airport, where the entrance was blocked by a heavily-fortified checkpoint, manned by a high-calibre machinegun.

    Also
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/timaru-herald/news/9407694/Katipo-exercise-gets-bitten-by-typhoon
    Also 22/2/2011
    http://www.odt.co.nz/regions/north-otago/148641/military-exercise-one-nzs-biggest

    • b waghorn 18.1
      21 December 2014 at 4:06 pm

      I struggle to see a link between an army training exercise in 2011 and a police raid in 2007

      • McFlock 18.1.1
        21 December 2014 at 4:54 pm

        I struggle to see why any US, NZ or Aus training exercise in civilian pacification and counter-insurgency is particularly surprising given their current deployments and the pattern of conflicts over the last thirty-odd years.

        • greywarshark 18.1.1.1
          21 December 2014 at 5:03 pm

          @ McFlock
          The age of innocence has gone. Some have a lot of learning and thinking to do.

          • McFlock 18.1.1.1.1
            21 December 2014 at 5:07 pm

            Some are also getting pissed off with cryptic bullshit.

            • greywarshark 18.1.1.1.1.1
              21 December 2014 at 6:47 pm

              @ McFlock
              Whose cryptic bullshit?

              • phillip ure …
                21 December 2014 at 6:49 pm

                @ grey..

                ..own it..!

              • McFlock …
                21 December 2014 at 6:52 pm

                e.g. who needs to learn what?

                • greywarshark …
                  21 December 2014 at 7:21 pm

                  @ McFlock
                  Have you had too much Christmas cake and got an acid stomach? I thought I shouldn’t have to point out interference in governance and population control in nations by other big nations.

                  This is what you said yourself McFlock.
                  I struggle to see why any US, NZ or Aus training exercise in civilian pacification and counter-insurgency is particularly surprising given their current deployments and the pattern of conflicts over the last thirty-odd years.

                  Anyone who is alert to the spread of the USA empire and how it is co-opting Australia and NZ and now our surveillance system, would see the connection between armed forces usually used externally, and armed police operations used in the Tuhoe operation internally against citizens.

                  It was not the way to handle the concerns that the snoops and police had. But they chose a heavy-handed war-like attack mode against Tuhoe. The Timaru operation had in its scenario an ethnic component, a Prime Minister who wouldn’t follow the required process and step down (similar to Muldoon), and some dissidents. It all seemed to be not too far from reality.

                  If people commenting here haven’t known about these ‘exercises’ then they should be learning about them and thinking on the possible meanings of such. It has been on the blog before. It’s not new.

                  And thanks for your interest phillip. You are not wearing your buffoon or fool’s hat today. then.

                  • McFlock …
                    21 December 2014 at 7:39 pm

                    Sorry, forgot.
                    The NZ government and military is planning to run a counter-insurgency war in New Zealand. Nothing to do with Iraq, Afghanistan, or any of the other conflicts in the last 25-30 years. /sarc

                    No wonder you felt the need to hide behind passive-aggressive pseudo-profundity.

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      22 December 2014 at 1:36 pm

                      The power elite know precisely that economic instability, climate change and oligarchic rule is going to bring massive social instability and dissent to western nations. Riots in the UK, USA, Greece, Sweden and Spain are only a practice run of what is to come when tens of millions end up displaced off coastal low lying cities, hundreds of millions find that their retirement funds and pensions have vapourised, and sovereign states end up too poor or too uncaring to help.

                      So the power elite (and their trans-national deep state – the same one which does things like co-ordinate and align secretive trade and banking agreements, spy and anti-terror legislation, across the world) are getting ready for it. Para-militarisation of civilian policing, legalising detention without charge, warrantless surveillance and limitless communications intrusion. London police buying water cannon; US police receiving sniper rifles, APCs and MRAPs. First Al Qaeda, now ISIS, are used as the rationale. You may remember in western history “the Huns” played the bogeyman for a while. Then “the Reds.” $$$ to be spent on weapons systems and foot soldiers, but nothing more for children in poverty, students or women in desperate distress. There will no doubt be some other bogeyman group next.

                      The big picture might be a bit ugly but that doesn’t mean you should turn away from looking. From the suppression of Occupy throughout the USA, treating G20 protestors in Canada like terrorists, kettling protestors in the UK with police cavalry, and the para-militarisation of policing throughout the western world.

                      The repressive and oppressive techniques and tactics learnt by every empire in their control of distant colonies is always brought home to be used on their own people, by the end.

                      That is what always happens.

                    • McFlock …
                      22 December 2014 at 3:48 pm

                      whatever, dude

          • b waghorn 18.1.1.1.2
            21 December 2014 at 5:49 pm

            Mate I stopped seeing boogy men years ago unless you have a tangible link you’re just looking paranoid.

  19. Weepus beard 19
    21 December 2014 at 5:02 pm

    I bet Christmas is non-stop fun at Pete’s place.

    After unwrapping presents there’ll be a game of “debate-the-micro-topic” late into the night with the little ones.

  20. Pat O'Dea 20
    21 December 2014 at 5:29 pm

    ‘

    https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=683367131781704&fref=nf

    Dirty Politics could not have succeeded without Dirty Journalism.

  21. joe90 21
    21 December 2014 at 6:07 pm

    Woohoo, emailed spanners!.

    Nasa was responding to a request by ISS commander Barry Wilmore for a ratcheting socket wrench.

    Previously, if astronauts requested a specific item they could have waited months for it to be flown up on one of the regular supply flights.

    Mike Chen, founder of Made In Space, the company behind the 3-D printer, said: “We had overheard ISS Commander Barry Wilmore (who goes by “Butch”) mention over the radio that he needed one, so we designed one in CAD and sent it up to him faster than a rocket ever could have.”

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-30549341

    • batweka 21.1
      21 December 2014 at 6:28 pm

      have to admit, that while I think the space program is a collossal waste of time, money and resources when we desperately and urgently need to solve problems here on earth, I did think the emailed spanner was pretty cool.

  22. batweka 22
    21 December 2014 at 6:26 pm

    10 secs of GowerPower entitlement (quite funny)

    https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1039047332778426

  23. Paul 23
    21 December 2014 at 7:54 pm

    New Zealand a country where the wealthy get name suppression even when found guilty of unspeakable crimes.

    The reason ..'”He’s a very astute businessman who fell from grace..’

    What a pathetic excuse.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm?objectid=11376845

    • Weepus beard 23.1
      21 December 2014 at 8:01 pm

      How can a convicted and sentenced person still get name suppression?

      • Paul 23.1.1
        21 December 2014 at 8:09 pm

        That’s what I wondered.
        Something really dodgy going on?
        Why wait till February?

        • batweka 23.1.1.1
          21 December 2014 at 9:17 pm

          It’s to protect the victim.

          • fender 23.1.1.1.1
            21 December 2014 at 9:40 pm

            That should be the reason, however when the article states: “His lawyer Mark Ryan asked the court to continue the man’s name suppression, which was granted by the judge until February”, it sounds like something else is going on(?)

            • Paul 23.1.1.1.1.1
              21 December 2014 at 9:42 pm

              Yes that’s what I wondered too.

            • Ergo Robertina 23.1.1.1.1.2
              21 December 2014 at 10:04 pm

              It might be because of the need to consider potential impact on victims (the Stuff story said parents of two of the victims wanted him named; it’s not clear from what I read how many victims there were).
              It’s not unusual for court hearings to be delayed to allow for reports or to check details, especially given the nature of this case.

      • Murray Rawshark 23.1.2
        22 December 2014 at 1:08 am

        A convicted and sentenced person can get name suppression by being a member of The Northern Club. There are other ways, but this one is the most reliable. A sexual predator like this prick should be named for the protection of society.

    • greywarshark 23.2
      21 December 2014 at 10:22 pm

      @ Paul
      Who’s this Grace?

  25. SDCLFC 25
    22 December 2014 at 12:50 pm

    New Zealand’s festive season should be a winter solstice, like it is the Northern Hemisphere.
    This is a purely utilitarian approach and comes from someone who has never experienced a Northern Hemisphere Christmas (so I’m not someone saying – “it was better in the UK”).
    It also comes from someone who does Christmas with the kids and enjoys much of it (so I’m not a complete grinch – just a moderate one).
    It goes like this:
    We need a break in the middle of winter. So maybe winters aren’t quite as tough as they used to be for people when tradition of a winter solstice was first born but there are modern pressures and stresses today that are at there worst in winter. A break then would be fantastic.
    The economy could have two retails spending peaks rather than one. On the face of it there would be no decrease because the festive spending would be transferred to a different time of year while the summer spending spike would stay where it is. With a winter solstice retailers would have the risk and opportunity spread to two different times of the year.
    Our summers would be left unmolested by the perversion of Christmas. This is the big one for me. I Imagine being able to enjoy December as the part of the summer slow down rather than having it blown up by shopping and stress. There is so much to do for the end of year and then squeeze Christmas in their as well. I would love the to enjoy a December for once, if only I new how it felt.
    How to do it?
    A two-day public holiday at Matiriki (actually, make it 3), would work. Slowly keep up the narrative and watch people transfer the seasons (over generations). To find budget we can drop Queens Birthday weekend (and I’m a, moderate, monarchist), and one of Easter. I’d drop ANZAC Day but that’s never going to happen – maybe post Peak ANZAC.
    What’s blocking it?
    Tradition? Whenever I find myself arguing for something based on tradition I decide it’s time to pack it in. Traditions need to hold contemporary value. And in any case, the tradition is on the side of a winter solstice.
    The Birth of Christ? Christians are free to celebrate that whenever they want but we are free to develop a Christmas/festive season to best meet the needs of our society. I mean it’s not like he was born on December 25 after all.
    It’s the day Santa comes. F$#^ing, F@$k, F@^k!!!!!
    If I had my time again as a parent Santa Claus would be a fiction the same as Peter Pan. In fact that’s the point. There is much more value for young people in story telling and myth making than there is in faith and belief. Kids are a lot better at handling complex ideas than parents give them credit for. They take there understanding as far as they need to, park it, and then come back to it when they are a ready. As it’s just a story to tell children to build festive cheer it can be written anyway we like. The only person I really seeing have a problem with it would be Tim Allen.