Open mike 22/01/2015

Written By: - Date published: 6:56 am, January 22nd, 2015 - 266 comments
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266 comments on “Open mike 22/01/2015 ”

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  1. phillip ure 1
    22 January 2015 at 7:02 am

    (that new doco on pot-prohibition i have mentioned previously is having its’ premiere this wknd..here is a review..)

    comment@whoar:..’druglawed’ (review..)..stupendous..!..a rollicking roll-up of pot prohibition..!

    (ed:..this film premieres on sat 24th jan – details below..)

    ed:..this is the documentary that has needed to be made for far too long..

    ..and now it is here..

    ..first-time director arik reiss has tackled the gnarly-issue of cannabis prohibition in new zealand..

    ..but how to make what could be a sprawling-mess into a coherent ‘story’..?

    ..what reiss has done is break the subject up into nine different chapters..

    ..and that approach works well..

    ..thru the adroit use of (fascinating) historical-footage – and talking-heads..we are told the whole sorry story of cannabis-prohibition in new zealand..

    ..how/why america lead us there..and has now left us here..”

    (cont..)

    http://whoar.co.nz/2015/commentwhoar-druglawed-review-stupendous-a-rollicking-roll-up-of-pot-prohibition/

    (and that premiere this wknd..?..u can go if u like.)

    “..Kia Ora, friends! Druglawed will finally be released on Saturday Jan24 at 4.20pm. Additional screenings at 7.10pm and Sunday at 4.20 & 7.10 – your koha will finance the Druglawed Underworld Tour to screen the film across NZ.

    We have built Druglawed a private theatre for 2 days only where you can join the cast & crew to launch the film at Unit 14, 169 Harris Rd, E Tamaki. See you this weekend!..”

    • John Shears 1.1
      22 January 2015 at 7:25 am

      Remember to bring your own electric puha ‘cos it ain’t legal yet so we can’t sell you any.

  2. Heartbleeding Liberal 2
    22 January 2015 at 7:17 am

    I am really glad that the mother who suffered the recent tragedy with her child is being respected as a human being who is going through a significant trauma and in need of support. Unfortunately, I suspect that if this same event happened to a beneficiary, especially one of Maori or Pasifika descent, the usual suspects would be manning their pitchforks.

    • phillip ure 2.1
      22 January 2015 at 7:20 am

      that thought has crossed my mind..

      ..and i came to the same conclusion..

    • Psycho Milt 2.2
      22 January 2015 at 7:44 am

      …if this same event happened to a beneficiary…

      Don’t worry, I expect that forgetting to drop your kid off at the childcare centre on the way to work is an event unlikely to befall a beneficiary.

      • phillip ure 2.2.1
        22 January 2015 at 7:56 am

        and that (smartarse-attempt?) comment defines yr approach to any debate in this forum..

        .pettifogging/nit-picking obfuscation..

        ..they r yr middle-names..

      • Crashcart 2.2.2
        22 January 2015 at 8:28 am

        I suspect that yoru assumption is worthless. With the number of solo mothers who have to work part time whilst collecting the DPB it is something I would not be surprised to see.

        IMO this is a symptom of a society where both parents or solo parents have to work just to be able to keep their head above let alone get ahead.

        The combined stresses of workign and raising children leading to horrible accidents like this. 27 children died in this way last year in the US. Can only see the numbers of incidents in NZ going up as the pressures to work and raise a family increase.

        • marty mars 2.2.2.1
          22 January 2015 at 8:34 am

          + 1

          “IMO this is a symptom of a society where both parents or solo parents have to work just to be able to keep their head above let alone get ahead.”

          Yes I agree.

          This horrible, horrible tragedy is gut wrenching. Arohanui to the family.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 2.2.2.2
          22 January 2015 at 8:46 am

          Bottom line:

          …if you’re human and have ever forgotten anything (if you satisfy those 2 criteria), then you can forget a child in a car.

        • Psycho Milt 2.2.2.3
          22 January 2015 at 8:48 am

          IMO this is a symptom of a society where both parents or solo parents have to work just to be able to keep their head above let alone get ahead.

          This particular incident is more likely a symptom of a society in which people quite justifiably see no reason to give up their careers just because they have kids, and in which accidents happen. There’s no need to go looking for someone or something to blame.

          • phillip ure 2.2.2.3.1
            22 January 2015 at 8:51 am

            any need to sneer/wisecrack/poor-bash..?

            ..or is any day ending in a ‘y’ ok 4 that..?

            • Psycho Milt 2.2.2.3.1.1
              22 January 2015 at 9:09 am

              No, there’s no need for that either, Phil – you might bear that in mind when endorsing comments of the “she’s only getting away with it because she’s well-off” type.

              • phillip ure …
                22 January 2015 at 9:22 am

                there ya go..!

                ..a classic example of what i was just speaking about..

                ..that plus yr long-used tactic of making up something..and then using that as yr basis for attack..

                ..as nobody said/inferred any attack on the rich..

                .and for you to claim so is u at yr shabbiest..eh..?

                ..q.e. fucken d…

                .and all in yr own words..

                • Psycho Milt …
                  22 January 2015 at 9:43 am

                  Yes, it’s awful when people unreasonably infer some kind of bigotry from a comment you made, isn’t it?

                  • phillip ure …
                    22 January 2015 at 9:47 am

                    ok..i’ll play yr stupid fucken game..

                    ..cd u plse quote that ‘alleged’-comment..

                    ..where i demonstrate that ‘bigotry’ u claim i do..

                    (a.k.a..just keep on digging..!..whydontcha..?..)

                    ..it is all most illuminating..)

                    • Psycho Milt …
                      22 January 2015 at 10:57 am

                      Your comments so far suggest it’s not illuminating at all – or at least, not to you.

                      To help rectify that situation: before picking apart how I unreasonably inferred bigotry against the well-off from a comment you endorsed, let’s pick apart how you unreasonably inferred bigotry against the poor from comment 2.2. Do your best to formulate a reasoned argument for that inference and see how you get on.

                    • phillip ure …
                      22 January 2015 at 11:06 am

                      so..as usual..when cornered on yr crap..u won’t answer/address what is said..

                      ..instead you veer off..take another tack..and attack again..(yawn..!..)

                      i was not the only one to notice..

                      ..ask one of the others..

                      ..as a general rule of thumb..i am fast tiring of yr bullshit..

                    • Psycho Milt …
                      22 January 2015 at 11:39 am

                      For my part, I feel like I put a decent effort into trying to get you to actually think about what you’re writing, rather than offering a stream-of-consciousness feed of whatever your gut instinct is at any given moment, but am willing to admit failure.

                    • phillip ure …
                      22 January 2015 at 12:08 pm

                      as i said..’i have tired of yr bullshit’..

                      ..u’ll have to continue yr exercise in auto-eroticism on yr own..

          • One Anonymous Bloke 2.2.2.3.2
            22 January 2015 at 8:51 am

            +1

          • Paul 2.2.2.3.3
            22 January 2015 at 9:16 am

            What an uncaring and thoughtful comment.
            Unbelievable.

          • weka 2.2.2.3.4
            22 January 2015 at 9:20 am

            “There’s no need to go looking for someone or something to blame.”

            I agree. Same can’t be said of your bigotry though.

            • greywarshark 2.2.2.3.4.1
              22 January 2015 at 6:11 pm

              Now the RW are trying to turn criticisms of the well-off into the equivalent of hate speech? Oh dear beney-bashing for them is as acceptable as spear tackles in robust rugby, but suggesting that the playing field is very not level so that the money slip, slides away to the pockets of the already advantaged is not on.

          • Crashcart 2.2.2.3.5
            22 January 2015 at 2:17 pm

            You have a point in that this could happen in a society where both pearents don’t nessisarily have to work but choose to do so. This particular case could be a result of that. I don’t know enough about the family involved to state either.

            It doesn’t change the fact that in our society if you want to raise a family and you aren’t one of the few on a higher income the option of a stay at home pearant is almost non existant. If you are a single pearant on the DPB then after a certain point the government will FORCE you to take up employment so you have even less choice. (Which by the way makes a farce of your initial statement saying this is something that would not happen to a benny)

            These conditions would seem to me to be a perfect breeding ground for this kind of tragedy.

            I am just glad that so far people don’t seem to be demonising this woman as the pain she must be experiencing now would be indescribable. Irrelivent of what her income and background is.

            • One Anonymous Bloke 2.2.2.3.5.1
              22 January 2015 at 2:48 pm

              Yes, it’s obvious you’ve convinced yourself of this, and I have found no reference to any such correlation.

              Common factors include weather, geography, and a disrupted routine. All of which are equally applicable under any set of personal circumstances.

              • Crashcart …
                22 January 2015 at 2:57 pm

                Are you saying that my description of working conditions for those on lower incomes are inacurate? Are you saying that stress and fatigue are not contributing factors to these incidents?

                I was and am happy to conceed that there are other factors that are outside of what I describe that can lead to these accidents. If these risk factors can be reduced they should be. Are you willing to entertain the idea that the factors I describe could also be a contributing circumstance that if tackled may also reduce the chances of this happening?

                • Psycho Milt …
                  22 January 2015 at 3:54 pm

                  (Which by the way makes a farce of your initial statement saying this is something that would not happen to a benny)

                  I said it was “unlikely” to happen to a beneficiary, but sure – there may well be SPS recipients who work enough hours to justify professional childcare but not so many as to lose the benefit entirely, who could have this happen to them.

                  These conditions would seem to me to be a perfect breeding ground for this kind of tragedy.

                  Well, the guy who’s made a study of it said (as quoted by One Anonymous Bloke) “…if you’re human and have ever forgotten anything (if you satisfy those 2 criteria), then you can forget a child in a car.” If you want to make a case that it’s actually the government’s fault, you’ll need some evidence.

                  It’s certainly true that this woman working for a living was a factor in this accident, in the sense that if she didn’t have a job it couldn’t have happened. But that’s like saying a pedestrian who gets run over wouldn’t have had the problem if they hadn’t gone for a walk – it’s true, but not very useful.

                  • weka …
                    22 January 2015 at 4:56 pm

                    “but sure – there may well be SPS recipients who work enough hours to justify professional childcare”

                    Ok, so now we have proof that you don’t know what you are talking about. Why not just shut up on the benny thing for a while.

                    “It’s certainly true that this woman working for a living was a factor in this accident, in the sense that if she didn’t have a job it couldn’t have happened.”

                    Or it could have happened to someone who doesn’t have a paid job but was going to something else that day.

                    This is a stupid conversation. Shit happens. This woman had made a tragic mistake. No-one in this conversation knows what the contributing factors were, if any.

                    • Psycho Milt …
                      22 January 2015 at 5:08 pm

                      Why not just shut up on the benny thing for a while.

                      Take it up with the person who raised it.

                    • weka …
                      22 January 2015 at 7:34 pm

                      The person who raised it appeared to know what they were talking about, so it’s seems reasonable that they comment.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      22 January 2015 at 7:40 pm

                      Weka, are you saying that HBL’s attempt to make political hay is “reasonable”?

                    • weka …
                      22 January 2015 at 10:37 pm

                      No, I’m saying that the bit in the their comment about beneficiaries appeared to match reality, whereas PM’s comments about beneficiaries were by turns bigoted, then ignorant. If one wants to make a comment here, I think it’s reasonable to expect some level of knowledge about the subject.

                      As for whether the original comment was reasonable or not, I dont’t know. I’m not sure I would characterise it as making political hay, it looked more like a passinf observation than trying to gain anything. I thought the point insightful, but the whole conversation went off on a track that was speculative to no good end (IMO).

                    • Psycho Milt …
                      23 January 2015 at 6:30 am

                      …PM’s comments about beneficiaries were by turns bigoted, then ignorant.

                      My original comment was, as Phil pointed out, a wisecrack – a piece of assholery offered as counterpoint to HBL’s assholery about people who aren’t beneficiaries. You don’t mind the one type but are outraged by the other – well, fair enough, what you like or don’t like is up to you, but don’t expect me to care particularly one way or the other.

                    • weka …
                      23 January 2015 at 9:37 am

                      They weren’t being an arsehole about people who aren’t beneficiaries though, they were making a comment about public and media sympathies. What was there to be outraged about?

                      Besides, if you were just making a wise crack, why didn’t you included Māori and Pasifika?

                      I do believe there are significant overlaps between your bigotry, your general misanthropy, your politics and your wit, but in this case my original point stands.

                • One Anonymous Bloke …
                  22 January 2015 at 4:19 pm

                  Are you saying that stress and fatigue are not contributing factors to these incidents?

                  I don’t know. The doctor I quoted says a disrupted routine is a significant common factor, and also that “no one is immune from making this memory error.”

                  The competing brain memory system, controlled by the basal ganglia and motor cortex, governs motor habits.

                  “These motor areas compete with our cognitive areas to get us to do things without thinking about them,” Diamond says. “And, in fact, they’re so powerful that they can suppress our cognitive areas.”

                  Edit: “Having an infant almost means by definition that you’re going to be sleep deprived,” so that’s a yes.

            • Clemgeopin 2.2.2.3.5.2
              22 January 2015 at 3:00 pm

              @Crashcart

              I am just glad that so far people don’t seem to be demonising this woman as the pain she must be experiencing now would be indescribable. Irrelivent of what her income and background is

              +1

              I , like most people, I am sure, fee so sad for this woman. No idea how she will get over this unfortunate devastating agony. Hope she will get a lot of kindness and psychological help from her near and dear ones and the authorities. That is high priority.

            • greywarshark 2.2.2.3.5.3
              22 January 2015 at 6:14 pm

              Good points Crashcart. By the way it is parent not pearant. Parents will come into the comments a lot in the next three years so may as well get the spelling right now.

      • adam 2.2.3
        22 January 2015 at 10:56 am

        I’m getting just over Psycho Milt and his sexist, classist and chauvinistic claptrap. Seriously, smoke some pot and mallow out. Your just to wound up man. Hire a prostitute – you need something, and maybe a good screw will stop you from all the verbal wanking your doing here.

        But, to your point – stop the benny bashing. It really is crass, and shows you up as a low life.

        • Psycho Milt 2.2.3.1
          22 January 2015 at 11:00 am

          It really is crass…

          I think you’re getting confused by the gravatar.

          • adam 2.2.3.1.1
            22 January 2015 at 11:15 am

            Feel free to insert any of these words instead, at your pleasure – doltish, boorish, oafish.

            And may I remind you, as your in glib mode – drop the sexism.

            • Psycho Milt 2.2.3.1.1.1
              22 January 2015 at 11:46 am

              Glib or not, I’m genuinely flummoxed by a reminder to “drop the sexism.” Not that it isn’t sensible advice in a general sense, of course – I’m just not seeing a specific application for it in my comments here.

              • phillip ure …
                22 January 2015 at 5:22 pm

                won’t they be missing you back @ that rightwing-coven from which u emerged..?

                ..is it still extant..?

                • One Anonymous Bloke …
                  22 January 2015 at 5:25 pm

                  If you think PM is a wingnut you haven’t been paying attention.

                  • phillip ure …
                    22 January 2015 at 5:32 pm

                    i’ve been ‘paying attention’ enough to know he is a rightwing/neo-lib apologist/benny-basher..

                    ..who hangs/lurks in that aformentioned coven..

                    ..what else s there to know..?

                  • greywarshark …
                    22 January 2015 at 6:18 pm

                    OAB
                    How do you define a wingnut?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      22 January 2015 at 6:25 pm

                      Take your foot off his throat?

                    • greywarshark …
                      22 January 2015 at 6:28 pm

                      I actually did want to know as I thought that Psycho Milt would be a candidate. I’m obviously all bewildered.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      22 January 2015 at 6:35 pm

                      People project all sorts of things onto PM. I think he does it deliberately.

                    • Ergo Robertina …
                      22 January 2015 at 11:10 pm

                      @greywarshark

                      This is not a comment about Psycho per se, but I have noticed the left becoming more crowded with people who aren’t left-wing, but dislike free markets or have realised that system isn’t working.
                      It’s a healthy thing all in all, but lends itself to a bit of confusion and certainly more antagonism (in what has always been a place of competing agendas).
                      As for Psycho, I think they’re a bit of an iconoclast.

                    • greywarshark …
                      23 January 2015 at 11:18 am

                      @ Ergo R
                      Thanks for that thought. I’ll bear that in mind. You are right I think.

                • Psycho Milt …
                  22 January 2015 at 7:00 pm

                  Phil, I thought you were finished with my “bullshit.” And, for the nth time, the belief that the able-bodied should make an effort to earn their own living, and the belief that totalitarian ideologies should be rejected, are in no sense whatsoever “right-wing.”

                  • Te Reo Putake …
                    22 January 2015 at 7:17 pm

                    Yep. Karl Marx did say “From each according to their ability, to each according to their need”. Which kinda suggests it’s actually a left wing concept that people should contribute to society, as far as they reasonably can. Of course, the problem with neo- liberals is that they don’t understand the limits of the first part of the equation and have no real respect for the second part at all.

                    From my reading of his comments here and elsewhere, PM is clearly not a neo-lib and he’s a lot less right wing than, say, Pete George. So, best concentrate on what he actually says, not on what you assume he’s saying. They’re often two very different things.

                    • phillip ure …
                      22 January 2015 at 7:32 pm

                      “..They’re often two very different things…”

                      ..so his benny-bashing is actually a form of support..?

                      ..in his ‘different things’ language..?

                      ..who knew..?

                      ..(and ‘less rightwing than p.g.’..?

                      ..now that’s funny…!

                      ..and sets a new benchmark in backhanded-compliment..)

                    • Te Reo Putake …
                      22 January 2015 at 7:42 pm

                      Someone as illiterate and incomprehensible as yourself is in no position to lecture on language, Phil. And, yep, PM is not a conservative, anally retentive, racist troll, so definitely to the left of the bore from Gore.

                    • phillip ure …
                      22 January 2015 at 8:45 pm

                      heh..!

                      ..ad-homs really are all u’ve got..eh..?

                      ..a bit of an empty basket there..eh..

                    • Psycho Milt …
                      22 January 2015 at 8:52 pm

                      ..so his benny-bashing is actually a form of support..?

                      My “support” takes the form of paying my taxes, and of voting for parties that will maintain a strong social welfare system and public sector while taking steps to see to it that jobs are available and pay enough to live on. If you’re looking for the kind of “support” in which I pretend that the able-bodied have no obligation to try and earn their own living, don’t bother.

                    • phillip ure …
                      22 January 2015 at 9:38 pm

                      arbeit macht frei..?..eh..?

                    • phillip ure …
                      22 January 2015 at 9:40 pm

                      ‘i pay my taxes..!..bloody bludging-beificiaries..!’

                      ..harrumped ‘self-made-man’ from howick..

                    • Psycho Milt …
                      22 January 2015 at 10:17 pm

                      ..ad-homs really are all u’ve got..eh..?

                    • phillip ure …
                      23 January 2015 at 5:39 am

                      thought you’d finish with a whimper..?

    • Ross 2.3
      22 January 2015 at 3:21 pm

      To what extent will we allow ourselves to be beaten down, used, abused and tortured by our employers? That is what this story is about. It is about abuse. How battered, desensitised; how zombified do we have to collectively become? What’s the metric? Forgetting your own baby, I would suggest, is one.

      This is a story of a young couple living what should be the most memorable and happy days of their lives. Instead it is about both of them having to work. It is also about both of them having to work so much, at such unsociable and unhealthy hours, no doubt under the most stressful conditions THAT THEY FORGET THEIR OWN BABY!

      This is what we, all of us, have done to them.

      This is the price we have paid for turning everything into a business over the last 30 years. Hospitals are no longer healing centres, they are businesses. Families are no longer loving, nurturing, caring cells of compassion for raising our children to lead happy, fulfilled creative lives. They’re businesses.

      A business is a psychopathic entity that takes more than it gives. This is a shocking, heartbreaking story, the telling of which started 30 years ago. Please, please let it be the end.

      • Yabby 2.3.1
        22 January 2015 at 7:59 pm

        What are you taking about Ross?
        Sorry but I find your argument verges on bizarre. The mother we know at least is a senior medical employee and no doubt is remunerated accordingly. The father , also is gainfully employed and the decision they make are no different to many millions the world over. This family made its own choices and they were in no way pushed to any imaginary edge by a “pyscopathic business”.
        You may lament the changes to society, but the NZ I live in is a vastly more tolerant and more inclusive and people, especially women have more choice than ever did 30 years ago.
        I feel incredibly sad about the little boy and cannot imagine the pain of the parents, but a changed NZ society is not to blame for this tragic accident.

        • millsy 2.3.1.1
          22 January 2015 at 9:51 pm

          I know a shit load of people who have kids. Some work, some don’t.

          But all of them would *never* forget to drop a baby off at a daycare/babysitter, etc.

          This doesnt add up, and hopefully the police are diligent in their investigation.

          • Psycho Milt 2.3.1.1.1
            23 January 2015 at 6:41 am

            Never? Not one of them forgets things? Not one of them has ever had a close call in which things could have turned out badly if their luck had been a bit worse? What perfect friends you have, millsy…

          • phillip ure 2.3.1.1.2
            23 January 2015 at 7:02 am

            bullshit..!..millsy..

            ..and no..i never ‘forgot’..

            ..but what happened/that tragedy is totally human…

            ..yr judgement-call is seriously fucked-up..

          • One Anonymous Bloke 2.3.1.1.3
            23 January 2015 at 8:30 am

            Millsy, did you read the article cited at 2.2.2.2?

            This does not seem to target irresponsible people. It targets people who, in fact, are aware of this phenomenon. There are quite a few parents who have learned of other parents leaving kids in cars, and they judge them very harshly. Those are the very same parents who then forget their kids…

        • Ross 2.3.1.2
          22 January 2015 at 11:20 pm

          Wow, Yabby. Were you even alive 30 years ago? At least we still had functioning unions which, despite all that might have been wrong with them, still provided some kind of protection for workers against the attacks of businesses. We still (arguably) had a living wage and a welfare system whose sole function was not to attack the dignity of the weakest in our community. We still had communities and neighborhoods that functioned as more than repositories of financial equity. More than anything, in relation to this story, we still had the choice to have one parent at home to raise the babies. NZ is vastly more intolerant and exclusive now. Our choices, like this couple’s, are delineated by boundaries set by employers. You both work or you’re homeless and hungry. Businesses are psychopathic entities that are required by law to maximise the return of the shareholders without regard to empathy or remorse. That is what psychopathic means. Those, I believe, are the forces at work in this story. A normal couple by today’s standards, even highly placed in an organisation, having to invest so much of their time and energy into their jobs that they are reduced to forgetting their baby. So, I’m pleased that you are happy with this state of affairs Yabby. That’s up to you. But don’t call me bizarre for disagreeing with you.

  3. Pete George 3
    22 January 2015 at 7:23 am

    The Herald continues it’s fabricated story attacking the poor:

    Fake monks on the run to Australia

    Two fake charity “monks” and a “nun” have left New Zealand – but others from a begging syndicate are applying for visas to come to New Zealand.

    Police said the trio, who were under investigation, left Auckland for Australia last Thursday and authorities across the Tasman have been alerted to the alleged scammers.

    They had been the subject of complaints for targeting pedestrians on Queen St and using aggressive methods to solicit for cash donations.

    Immigration New Zealand yesterday said it had received visa applications from other members of the “Blessings” syndicate.

    “[Immigration] officers in New Zealand have been in regular contact with their colleagues in China and we can now confirm that our offices in China have received applications by suspected or confirmed members of the Blessing scam,” said the agency’s area manager, Michael Carley.

    “Participants have been known to dress as monks or nuns and try to persuade their victims to hand over money or jewellery in return for ‘blessings’.”

    Mr Carley said a number of visitor visa applications from China nationals suspected to be involved in the scam had been declined.

    “[Immigration] officers are extremely vigilant in scrutinising applications from suspected scammers, including the possibility of more Chinese nationals attempting to come to NZ under false pretences,” he said.

    Mr Carley said the scam was not confined to New Zealand and there had been many cases around the world.

    The scammers will have to fly somewhere else in the world to beg.

    Last month, bogus Buddhist monks reportedly targeted crowds who came to pay their respects at the Martin Place siege site in Sydney.

    The Australian Minister for Consumer Affairs Jane Garret described them as “heartless conmen”.

    We have enough issues dealing with the poor here, having open borders for conning monks won’t help them at all.

    • tracey 3.1
      22 January 2015 at 7:41 am

      good to see you have seen through it and are keeping the focus on the “issues dealing with the poor here”.

      let it go man, you made your point over a few days and now you are going to ignite a whole thread of ridiculous tit for tatting…

      Imagine if you had followed up your revelations with a story about how the “genuine” poor were being dealt with.

      IF anyone reads this comment before posting their response to Pete, how about we have a day of “letting this go” and focus on the issues with the poor “here”.

    • adam 3.2
      22 January 2015 at 11:04 am

      Peter George, your another one – mellow out man. Take a few breaths and embrace the idea of loving forgiveness and fellowship. Using the standard as some sort of therapy, will only get you banned. I’d suggest a big fat joint, a beach and some good vegan food. Remind yourself that real human beings have things go wrong beyond their control, and helping them, help themselves, is the right thing to do.

      Actually fellowship and being a good human being is the right thing to do. But you could just embrace hate, blaming culture, and sit in self righteous judgement. Smug satisfaction, is at best, fleeting – and it is not a very productive approach to solving issues either.

      • Psycho Milt 3.2.1
        22 January 2015 at 1:23 pm

        Mellow out or you will pay! If only Pete could take an example from your own staunch refusal to embrace hate and blame or sit in self-righteous judgement…

    • greywarshark 3.3
      22 January 2015 at 3:52 pm

      Pete George
      You insult the poor by comparing a soliciting scam with how the poor are struggling to survive and live ordinary, everyday lives.
      Your sort is described in the King James Bible –
      They have sharpened their tongues like a serpent; adders’ poison is under their lips. Selah.

      The parents in the recent case of their poor child dying of heat stress when being left in the vehicle must be distraught with grief and remorese. The child might have been in one of those backward facing car seats that aren’t high visibility to the driver. I think the radio report was that 38 children have died of heat exhaustion in cars in the past year or a number of years.

      If parents are forced to leave their children to earn their pittance so they are housed and fed, the consequences are stress even when they are managing to get by. That stress can deepen and the imperative to get to work on time lead to single-minded effort and a lack of realisation

      My family have children at child care and the youngest spewed at midnight and 3 a.m. on her bed, on the carpet, in the bathroom. She was not greatly distressed, thank goodness, but needed looking after, cleaning up after and the parents were up half the night. They were very tired the next day. I think the ‘bug’ was a fleeting one and the child came right. But if it was recurring, how hard on parents particularly a mother forced out to work. In a poor family there is little help from WINZ these days, more distaste and disgrace for being needy. If she didn’t go to work, she might lose her job and have to beg for some emergency help.

      What a desperate bunch of grinding-stone like people we have become. Not human, but back to those disgusting Dickensian conditions we thought we had left behind for ever. And the lack of human concern and actual hate that can be heaped on anyone who has troubles and asks for help, causes everyone with community understandings and morality, to be troubled when it is refused or given sparingly and churlishly.

      • Ross 3.3.1
        22 January 2015 at 4:22 pm

        +100

      • Psycho Milt 3.3.2
        22 January 2015 at 4:45 pm

        My family have children at child care and the youngest spewed at midnight and 3 a.m. on her bed, on the carpet, in the bathroom. She was not greatly distressed, thank goodness, but needed looking after, cleaning up after and the parents were up half the night. They were very tired the next day.

        Been there, done that, on multiple occasions. Going to work the next day is indeed unpleasant. It’s called “having kids,” or perhaps in a more general sense, “living.” No handwringing sympathy is required.

        • greywarshark 3.3.2.1
          22 January 2015 at 5:58 pm

          Psycho Milt
          It’s all about you isn’t it. Because you managed. Nobody else gets a look-in past your smug, self-important viewpoint. It fills up the whole screen. A selfie!

          I said what about poor people struggling, especially an individual mother with no one else to share the responsibility, childcare work with, earning very little. But I don’t expect anything thoughtful from you. Never seen one understanding comment from you of people’s difficulties. So I don’t expect that will ever happen. And if it did, I would wonder what your real agenda was.

        • tricle up 3.3.2.2
          22 January 2015 at 7:27 pm
          PSYCHO M .NO TWO PEOPLE ARE THE SAME.. CAUSE AND EFFECT. ANYTHING THAT CAN HAPPEN WILL HAPPEN..CAN YOU NOT SEEEEE THE SUFFERING IN THE WORLD ARE THE WORDS YOU CREATE BLINDING . YOUR PROBLEMS ARE SMALL..NATURE HAS TRICKED YOU WELL.

          [lprent: Don’t shout. I reduced the volume. ]

  4. Heartbleeding Liberal 4
    22 January 2015 at 7:48 am

    Maybe I am late to the party, but i have been browsing through the right-wing blogosphere and have noticed that the readership, by and large, suffer from what can only be described as an inferiority-complex. It is very strange that people who are presumably well off are not content with their riches, they need that little bit extra, the cherry on the top if you will. This cherry is of course the attacking of those who happen to be less fortunate. Presenting evidence based rationale and following a logical structure with your arguments will get you down-ticked into oblivion. Don’t dare cite an academic journal or a scholar lest you be outed as a party to the communist conspiracy.

    I do appreciate the moderators allowing some of the fallacy laden proponents to enter into the discussions here, if only for the entertainment value.

    • JanM 4.1
      22 January 2015 at 7:53 am

      My experience with people who spend their lives gathering riches do so because they already have an inferiority complex, or however you want to describe it. It doesn’t, of course, help it – makes it worse, if anything because it encourages paranoia as well – someone might want to take it off them

      • phillip ure 4.1.1
        22 January 2015 at 8:06 am

        @ jan m.

        “..My experience with people who spend their lives gathering riches do so because they already have an inferiority complex..”

        ditto with my experiences..here and in parts foreign..

        ..and of course not all people of any financial group r the same..

        ..but that miserable/insecure-rich is a definite syndrome i have observed..

        ..and all of which just emphasises the paucities of materialism as a ‘religion’..

        • JanM 4.1.1.1
          22 January 2015 at 8:21 am

          “..and of course not all people of any financial group r the same..”
          That’s true – some people amass material wealth while following their pathways almost as a ‘by the way’ but it is not their main focus – they are not the ‘bene-bashers’ and other such unlovelies

          • phillip ure 4.1.1.1.1
            22 January 2015 at 8:27 am

            agreed..some of the most lovely people i have met..

            ..have been swimming in the stuff..

            ..and of course a lot of those in rightwing blogs aren’t ‘rich’ in any sense of the word..

            ….and are like that gosman..

            ..wannabes..

            ..and shock/horror..!..not all beneficiaries are paragons of virtue..

      • One Anonymous Bloke 4.1.2
        22 January 2015 at 9:01 am

        Hmm.

        Wealth is delivered by chance – accidents of birth or geography or skill set etc. The Right loves the myth of the self-made man, and it’s a myth.

        Piff et al described the inverse relationship between wealth and personal ethics – so wealth can certainly be toxic – and again – a matter of chance rather than design.

        Being right wing correlates far more to IQ and brain structure than wealth – otherwise they’d be in the tiny minority.

        • Colonial Rawshark 4.1.2.1
          22 January 2015 at 9:33 am

          Wealth is delivered by chance – accidents of birth or geography or skill set etc. The Right loves the myth of the self-made man, and it’s a myth.

          Chance, luck or kamma all have a role to play, sometimes a vital important role.

          But exertion, initiative and self discipline are also important factors.

          • One Anonymous Bloke 4.1.2.1.1
            22 January 2015 at 10:00 am

            For all the people who apply themselves according to your formula and happen to have a skill set that can lead to wealth, the ones that get rich do so by chance.

            The self made man is a myth. Not “parts of it are true” – a myth constructed from whole cloth.

            • Colonial Rawshark 4.1.2.1.1.1
              22 January 2015 at 10:17 am

              I agree with you that the “self made man” is a myth. No man gestated and birthed himself.

              But I’m telling you that society understands and accepts that exertion, initiative and self discipline are also important factors, day to day, which make a big difference.

              • The lost sheep …
                22 January 2015 at 11:25 am

                Absolutely CR.

                OAB seems to be seriously suggesting that among the group with the potential to obtain wealth, an individuals deliberate intention, analysis, strategy, application, risk, adaptation to circumstance, management of resources, etc etc…
                Have no influence at all on the outcomes they obtain???

                I’m looking forward to him explaining how that works.

                • Colonial Rawshark …
                  22 January 2015 at 11:31 am

                  I also believe that those positive characteristics, and many others, can be (and should be) encouraged, coached, developed and rewarded by our society across many areas of human endeavour.

                • One Anonymous Bloke …
                  22 January 2015 at 3:15 pm

                  TLS: No, you aren’t: you’ve already rationalised away your own good fortune and nothing I say is going to change that. In fact, it will make you cling even harder to your false beliefs, like a frightened child with a security blankie.

                  McFlock and Crashcart already laid out the argument pretty well. Read Posner or Lewis on the subject, or Warren Buffett, and you can reject their arguments too.

                  I note you showed business owners work long hours, which proves nothing: if they all work long hours why don’t they all get rich? The answer is luck.

                  Now suck your thumb and rock backwards and forwards.

                  • The lost sheep …
                    22 January 2015 at 4:29 pm

                    Apart from you knowing nothing at all about the uses I put my ‘wealth’ to OAB (but don’t let that stop you making snide generalizations based on simplistic stereotypes),
                    I notice you avoid directly answering my question…

                    Do you believe that the specific personal situation I have outlined represents over reward for the effort my wife and myself have made?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      22 January 2015 at 4:42 pm

                      I’ve no idea, and you’re missing the point.

                      I’m making no judgement of good fortune, nor decrying a life of effort. I’m just saying wealth is delivered by chance: you’re the one attaching self-worth to it, not me.

                      I accept the evidence that shows more equal societies deliver better outcomes for everyone. The myth of the self-made man does real harm.

                    • The lost sheep …
                      22 January 2015 at 4:58 pm

                      And so how equal do you think a society should be OAB?

                      For instance, I know a specialist surgeon who works about 100 hours a week and brings home 500k per annum,
                      and I have a old friend who left school early for a factory job and has never made any effort to improve himself or society. Currently he is on 35k per annum.

                      What do you think of that differential?
                      How would it be in your ideal state of equality?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      22 January 2015 at 5:22 pm

                      Here’s what I think of your self-serving anecdotes: they’re self-serving anecdotes.

                      Here’s what I think of the notion that income measures human worth: it demeans those who give it credence.

                      Would you like me to google some links on income inequality from The Lancet or the BMJ and spoonfeed them to you?

                      Do your own homework, and please, drop the facile false binary gobshite.

                    • The lost sheep …
                      22 January 2015 at 8:36 pm

                      It was bullshit yesterday and it’s bullshit today OAB.

                      Anytime you see the slippery slope of a genuine engagement looming you pull out the semantic smokescreen to avoid actually committing yourself to a concrete point of view.

                      As LPrent has said, you are a determined stirrer. That’s about it as far as I can tell. Fuck all substance behind the cheap shots and other peoples quotes.

                      And astonishingly out of touch with the majority of New Zealanders.

                    • McFlock …
                      22 January 2015 at 8:54 pm

                      🙄

                      What you’re lost on, mr sheep, is that the problem is not about exact values being prescribed and etched in stone for all eternity.

                      The problem is the weight that people like you attribute to the exact numbers in the first place. You can’t see the woods for the trees.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      22 January 2015 at 9:48 pm

                      Don’t get it do you Sheep?

                      What’s your point exactly? That I won’t specify an “ideal” value of the GINI? Or comment on your made-up character studies of people who you call friends while spraying their lives on blogs for your own satisfaction?

                      Pfft. <<<<< see that? It's contempt. Not for "the majority of New Zealanders". For your weasel drivel.

                    • Wreckingball …
                      23 January 2015 at 8:33 am

                      OAB why don’t you answer TLS’s question. Should the surgeon and the factory worker in his example be paid the same amount?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      23 January 2015 at 8:40 am

                      Was that the question WB?

                      No, it wasn’t.

                      You missed my answer, or perhaps you didn’t understand it. It’s the request to “please, drop the facile false binary gobshite.”

                      Do you understand what I mean by that? Your argumentum ad absurdium is another example. This cretinous pretence that recognising the influence of the GINI on society is the same as calling for a universal fixed income.

                      Are you twelve, or just clutching at brainless wingnut straws?

                    • The lost sheep …
                      23 January 2015 at 10:28 am

                      @Wreaking Ball

                      If OAB had put as much thought into the inequality issue as he implies, you’d think it would be a simple matter for him to make a concrete reply to my straightforward question.
                      But OAB never commits to a specific statement that would require him hold ground and defend his position.
                      You’ll never get a straight answer to a straight question out of him.

                      I think he is a politician.

                      Oh, and he ALWAYS has to have the last word. Betcha can’t resist this one OAB 🙂

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      23 January 2015 at 1:19 pm

                      “straightforward question”.

                      What’s straightforward about made-up character studies of your imaginary friends?

                      I reject your bullshit question.

                      PS: Sheep’s feverish imaginings reveal a lot about Sheep, and that’s about it.

                  • Murray Rawshark …
                    22 January 2015 at 10:40 pm

                    +1 I agree, but the myth runs deep.

                  • Wreckingball …
                    23 January 2015 at 11:09 am

                    @TLS exactly.

                    Here is a question for you OAB.

                    If wealth is entirely dependent on luck, then why would anyone bother putting in extra effort to further themselves?

                    • McFlock …
                      23 January 2015 at 11:36 am

                      Because the benefit to self-improvement is becoming a better person. Not money.

                      The benefit to learning a new skill is having that skill.

                      The benefit to learning new things at school or university or wherever is gaining knowledge.

                      The benefit to being the boss of your business is being your own boss.

                      Lord save us from tories who think money is the sole motive for everything.

                    • The lost sheep …
                      23 January 2015 at 11:56 am

                      Here’s a wild concept for you McFlock….

                      One of the benefits of having more ‘money’ is that it enables you to do more to benefit social and environmental initiatives.

                      For instance, nowadays I can do more to benefit environmental / Educational / Community initiatives in a week, than I was able to do in year when I was a minimum wage worker.

                      Lots of ‘wealthy’ people I know would also say the same.

                      So go ahead and sneer.
                      It’s a major contradiction of one narrative running in this blog.
                      You say you want society to be more caring, sharing, and compassionate – but if anyone from (what you consider to be) the right shows any sign of doing so – they are immediately subjected to derision and abuse for being ‘insincere’ ‘self serving’ etc!

                      Guess you just don’t want to admit there is any good what so ever outside your tiny little world view. Sad.
                      But fortunately, irrelevant.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      23 January 2015 at 1:22 pm

                      If the fool had simply read my other remarks they’d have found the answer to their revealing question had already been answered.

                      As for The Lost Sheep, his insincerity is palpable. This is the person who invokes his father memory while shitting on his legacy.

                • Adele …
                  22 January 2015 at 8:46 pm

                  Kiaora Koutou

                  I work in a professional environment. My job is rewarding and I enjoy work tremendously. However, if I was to focus solely on riches and rewards as the end goal, I wouldn’t be wasting time doing stuff like working harder, longer or smarter. I would simply buy a super uplift bra.

                  Having big breasts can really plump up a person’s net worth – especially if they are flung about in the right direction. Obviously not at the local pub or RSA, and certainly not at an TAB.

                  Somewhere classy and sophisticated, where rich people like to hang out such as Council Chambers and Parliament’s Foyer.

                  This advice won’t work for ‘man boobs’

              • McFlock …
                22 January 2015 at 11:29 am

                Not really.
                If I had to weigh up the relative factors I’d lean towards “wealth equals effort multiplied by luck squared”.

                I wouldn’t say that CEOs work any harder, or have any more self discipline, than someone working 50 hours a week as a night cleaner trying to feed their family. There’s your exertion and self-discipline. “Initiative” is largely a function of luck, having the right skillsets and contacts at the right time to identify and exploit an opportunity that presents itself.

                • Colonial Rawshark …
                  22 January 2015 at 11:33 am

                  I didn’t say a CEO works harder than someone on the minimum wage who is juggling several shite jobs.

                  Nevertheless the fact remains – individual factors do play an important role, although they are not the only factor and societal/environmental factors are also important.

                  • McFlock …
                    22 January 2015 at 11:54 am

                    No, you said that “exertion, initiative and self discipline are also important factors” in response to “Wealth is delivered by chance”.

                    They are not important determinants of whether wealth is delivered to an individual. Heck, I’d be pretty close to saying that it’s all luck.

                    • The lost sheep …
                      22 January 2015 at 12:23 pm

                      “Heck, I’d be pretty close to saying that it’s all luck.”

                      Of course you would McFlock.

                      Because the alternative is unthinkable.
                      There might actually be a correlation between wealth and individual strategy and effort!
                      God forbid, if you start accepting that kind of shit, where could you end up?
                      Believing that the creation of wealth takes effort and intelligence and therefore deserves reward?
                      Shudder.
                      /sarc

                    • Crashcart …
                      22 January 2015 at 12:52 pm

                      Actually McFlock is right.

                      His statement is that many people across the wealth spectrum have varing levels of Exertion, initiative and self discipline. This would indicate that there is no corrilation. However to be wealthy you do need luck. Be that luck in birth, luck in your ability in a valued profession.

                      To put it simply, if the factors you listed were a nessisary determinant then all people of wealth would reflect them. They don’t. However what they all do have in common is luck.

                    • McFlock …
                      22 January 2015 at 1:00 pm

                      There might actually be a correlation between wealth and individual strategy and effort!

                      If there’s any such correlation, you’re welcome to link to a source that demonstrates it.
                      Company performance and CEO pay?
                      Inherited wealth vs nouveau riche?
                      Work hours of managers vs minimum wage workers?

                    • The lost sheep …
                      22 January 2015 at 2:07 pm

                      http://www.dol.govt.nz/publications/research/long-hours/long-hours-12.asp

                      http://www.inc.com/news/articles/200604/overworked.html

                      http://www.forbes.com/2009/09/08/work-hours-ten-questions-entrepreneurs-promising.html

                      Personal anecdote.
                      After 20 years in minimum wage unskilled jobs working 35-45 hours pw, My Wife and I decided to become entrepreneurs.
                      First 5 years we worked 110 hours per week each. Combined income lower than any of our individual 40 hour pw employees.
                      Second 5 years we worked 90 hours pw. Combined Income equal to a single mid range 40 hour pw employee.
                      Third 5 years 70 hours pw. Our individual Incomes equaled the rate of our highest paid 40 hour pw employee.
                      Brought up a family during that time. (Don’t try it. You have been warned!)
                      20 years later we’re finally back down to 40 hours and have incomes that put us in the top 10% bracket.

                      Over that 20 years, I estimate that for every hour my wife and I have put in, we have earned about what one of our mid range employees currently earns per hour.
                      So our ‘wealth’ is a result of the very long hours we have worked, as opposed to a very high level of income per hour worked.

                      Interested to know how that kind of scenario fits in with anyone’s idea of a fair reward for effort?

                    • The lost sheep …
                      22 January 2015 at 2:27 pm

                      @ Crashcart

                      If you want to extend your definition of ‘luck’ to cover every factor that might possibly favour you, down to the abilities you are born with, then you would be correct.
                      But I wouldn’t agree at all, and not sure many others would.

                      I would find it very strange to regard the person who has worked right through the education system for many years and ended up as an extremely highly paid surgeon as merely ‘lucky’!

                      But not sure where you think the luck argument is leading? Is it that because wealth is merely a matter of luck, and individual effort doesn’t influence it, then individuals shouldn’t be able to benefit from it?

                    • Crashcart …
                      22 January 2015 at 2:32 pm

                      Well let me help you. Yes you put in long hours and hard work. No one here has said that those on good incomes can’t have those traits. Here is where your causation corrilation falls apart.

                      I don’t know what buisness you got into. However in a capatilist economy if a larger player had come along in your market space after you had started and could compete with you providing a better or equal service for a lower price then you would have failed. Your buisness would have been crushed. That in no way have reduced your own personal work ethic or effort in setting up your buisness. It would have been pretty unlucky. However you were lucky. No one came along and did what you are doing better.

                      So yes without hard work and determination your buisness would not have been a success. However it wouldn’t have been with out a level of luck either.

                      The fact remains that for hard work to be the determining factor in wealth all wealthy people would have to be hard workers and all hard workers would have to be wealthy. This is simply not true. Want some evidence go look up rich kids on instagram and then go and see how hard a deck hand on a fishing boat works.

                    • Crashcart …
                      22 January 2015 at 2:40 pm

                      To your previous comment. Why would you not extend that too luck? I knew plenty of guys in school who worked their asses off in the classic subjects. They just were not any good at them. It wasn’t because they were stupid. They tended to be good at things like wood work and metal work. The talents they were born with were no where near as valuable in a market economy. I found maths, economics and Science pretty damn easy. I was terrible at craft.

                      Now they were unlucky. They work probably harder than I do and will never get much beyond an average income and will not get wealthy (unless they get very lucky). I on the other hand have a pretty high paying job that I find not overly taxing. I would consider my self damn lucky. I also understand that at any stage that luck could run out.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      22 January 2015 at 2:56 pm

                      Yep, it’s all luck, or coal-miners and nurses would all be rich.

                      So would academics.

                      The inability to grasp this simple truth (as articulated very well by Crashcart) indicates that humility is in short supply, hence the phrase “a self-made man who worships his creator”.

                    • The lost sheep …
                      22 January 2015 at 3:04 pm

                      So if it is ALL luck, there is no point in making any extra effort?

                      And if it is ALL luck, individuals who are merely lucky should not get any reward above the level of those who were merely unlucky?

                    • The lost sheep …
                      22 January 2015 at 3:12 pm

                      @OAB
                      “humility is in short supply, hence the phrase “a self-made man who worships his creator”.”

                      So when you look for instance at the personal path to ‘wealth’ I have outlined above, you would say I have received excessive reward for my ‘luck’?

                      And if I informed you that through my efforts I had preserved 40 NZ based jobs in an industry that has ‘outsourced’ 70% of it’s labour to the third world over the last 15 years….you wouldn’t rate that a social benefit worth some reward for effort?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      22 January 2015 at 3:22 pm

                      Who said it’s pointless?

                      Hard work can be very rewarding in other ways than riches, although I see you’re already trying to move the goalposts.

                      Those jobs wouldn’t exist without you, of course they wouldn’t. Society would in fact collapse, eh 😆

                    • Crashcart …
                      22 January 2015 at 3:24 pm

                      Stateing it is all luck is probably the incorrect way of putting it. More accurately without some level of luck you will not become wealthy. Unfortunately some wealthy people choose to ignore the luck they had and instead put it all down to the sweat off their own brow. This would normally be harmless however what it seems to lead to is a way to blame those who are not wealthy and therefore feel no compasion or need to support them. It also allows for the justification of such gross inequalities in our society.

                      Should those who are lucky receive no reward above what those who are unlucky receive? Well in our current societal structure that is not a viable option. Do those who don’t have the luck deserve to be treated with more respect and have the right to live a better life than they currently do? Damn straight they do. If that means lucky people have to part with a little bit more then sign me up.

                    • McFlock …
                      22 January 2015 at 3:28 pm

                      Your links did not demonstrate that longer hours correlated with longer wealth. Small business owners include cleaning and security subcontractors.

                      From the DoL link:

                      The range of occupations in which many long hours workers are employed suggests a variety of skill levels; however, a number of the occupations where long hours are most prevalent, in terms of absolute numbers of workers, are management positions.

                      […]

                      An analysis of a number of broad groups of occupations indicates that “Agricultural and Fishery Workers” are the most likely to work long hours, followed by “Legislators, Administrators and Managers”.

                      Oh, and here’s another personal anecdote of someone who worked long hours.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      22 January 2015 at 3:29 pm

                      Stating it’s all luck offends those who lack humility. Sob sob.

                      It’s a very political question, and in the denier’s heart is the delusion that “there is no such thing as society”.

                      The fact is we’re all in this together.

                    • Crashcart …
                      22 January 2015 at 3:37 pm

                      It doesn’t offend me OAB. In large part I agree. However I do believe that you can increase your chance of luck if you work hard in the right area. I suppose choosing that area has its own level of luck attached. Luck is the thing you will always need. However sometimes that luck will not come without first putting in the hard work. Of course some times it will.

                    • phillip ure …
                      22 January 2015 at 3:41 pm

                      “..“a self-made man who worships his creator”…”

                      + 1..

                    • McFlock …
                      22 January 2015 at 3:41 pm

                      you can increase your chance of luck if you work hard in the right area

                      True, but you need to have the skillsets to reliably identify the right area. And hope that by the time you achieve maturity in that area, it hasn’t been made obsolete by some unforseeable event.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      22 January 2015 at 3:42 pm

                      Crashcart, you can put yourself in a position to be lucky? That sounds like a skill. It’s self-attribution bias, pure and simple.

                      I didn’t think you’d be offended 🙂

                    • Crashcart …
                      22 January 2015 at 3:44 pm

                      Exactly why I said that choosing that area has luck involved as well. As you rightly say there are people who no matter how had they work are not lucky enough to have skill sets that will ever attain them wealth.

                      I get where you are coming from OAB. Maybe a little of my own ego is showing there. 😛

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      22 January 2015 at 3:53 pm

                      …the alternative is unthinkable.
                      There might actually be a correlation between wealth and individual strategy and effort!
                      God forbid, if you start accepting that kind of shit, where could you end up?
                      Believing that the creation of wealth takes effort and intelligence and therefore deserves reward?

                      This really gives the game away: if wealth distribution is proportional to the throw of the dice, the rationale for huge income inequalities vanishes.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      22 January 2015 at 3:56 pm

                      Crashcart, I find the whole idea pretty challenging too: shades of some of the less comfortable findings of Neurobiology.

                      It’s important to remember that your income isn’t just measured in money, and other trite feel-good observations 😈

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      22 January 2015 at 4:10 pm

                      They are not important determinants of whether wealth is delivered to an individual. Heck, I’d be pretty close to saying that it’s all luck.

                      The political right wing understands NZer’s attitudes to this far better than you do, and they are very good at messaging effectively around it.

                    • McFlock …
                      22 January 2015 at 4:21 pm

                      The political right wing has spread this lie for the last 40 years, and they are very good at messaging effectively around it.

                      FIFY

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      23 January 2015 at 12:36 am

                      Sorry McFlock that’s bullshit.

                      I await the reaction when either Labour or the Greens try telling the electorate at a TV debate that a Kiwi family’s financial success in life is purely a matter of being lucky.

                      –> Four Key Terms.

                    • ropata:rorschach …
                      23 January 2015 at 1:02 am

                      Ashes to ashes and dust to dust.

                      Most wealthy kiwis (incl. all homeowners in AKL/WLG/CHC) would not call themselves wealthy, they would say they had worked hard blah blah and probably have a sob story about how hard their lives were/are. Bursting their bubble would be the height of rudeness. It’s all about perception and life experience not empirical data. We lie to ourselves so that we can sleep at night.

                    • McFlock …
                      23 January 2015 at 1:02 am

                      if your “four Key terms” conclusion is correct, then that merely means that people believe the lie.

                      It doesn’t make the lie become true. In receiving wealth, luck is exponentially more important as a determinant than effort and design ever will be.

    • phillip ure 4.2
      22 January 2015 at 8:02 am

      @ h.l..

      “..It is very strange that people who are presumably well off are not content with their riches, they need that little bit extra, the cherry on the top if you will. This cherry is of course the attacking of those who happen to be less fortunate..”

      + 1..

      ..and ugly ugly people..and no..not their physical-appearances..

      • Clemgeopin 4.2.1
        22 January 2015 at 2:42 pm

        Talking about Cherry, here is the thing about cherries:

        I just read this today:

        “You’ve probably heard the tip that if you’re interested in losing weight, it’s a good idea to eat slowly and chew your food at least 15-20 times before swallowing. Doing so allows your brain and body to actually sense that it’s full, instead of cramming a bunch of food down your throat only to find out 30 mins later that you’re WAY stuffed.

        And for that reason (and a few others), I’m picking cherries as my #1 fruit for weight loss.

        With cherries, you can’t just pop 30 in your mouth in two mins like you could, and probably often do, with grapes or blueberries. Instead, the pits force you to eat them slowly, allowing your satiation sensors to chime in a prevent you from over-indulging.

        So that’s reason #1 – built in portion control.

        Reason #2, and it’s a BIG one, is that cherries have the LOWEST glycemic index of all fruits, and one of the lowest glycemic indexes of any carbohydrate source—period.

        Scoring at a ridiculously low 22, you can even snack on cherries in the evening without much detriment as their effect on insulin is minimal at best. Again, it’s not late-night eating that’s the problem, it’s eating the wrong foods (those that cause a substantial rise in fat-loss halting insulin) in evening hours that is.

        So next time you’re in the mood for a sweet, satiating snack, reach for a small bowl of cherries and enjoy the goodness. My new favorite variety is Rainier cherries….Mmm mmm good :)”

        However, note that : As raw fruit, sweet cherries provide little nutrient content per 100 g serving . Dietary fiber and vitamin C are present in the most significant content while other vitamins and dietary minerals each supply less than 10% of the Daily Value (DV) per serving, respectively.

        Compared to sweet cherries, raw sour cherries contain higher content per 100 g of vitamin C (12% DV) and vitamin A (8% DV).

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherry#Commercial_production
        ———
        Disclaimer:
        I am not disclosing if I own a large Red Rainier Cherry Estate or shares in cherry production in Turkey, due to privacy issues! 🙂

    • Crashcart 4.3
      22 January 2015 at 8:33 am

      Its almost like they are playing an old school arcade game where it is all about getting the high score. After a point you are not actually achieving anything more. You have beaten the game. You are just doing it to say that you are better than everyone else playing the game. You can then take great pleasure in ridiculing them and telling them how much better than them you are at the game.

      • Colonial Rawshark 4.3.1
        22 January 2015 at 9:35 am

        Its almost like they are playing an old school arcade game where it is all about getting the high score. After a point you are not actually achieving anything more. You have beaten the game.

        I use this exact analogy as well. You’ve clocked the game but don’t know when to stop – or have nothing else to stop for. All you do in life is endlessly hang out with the other “winners”, play the same game with or against each other and slap each other on the back.

    • Gosman 4.4
      22 January 2015 at 12:27 pm

      Fallacy laden in what ways?

  5. Pat O'Dea 5
    22 January 2015 at 8:41 am

    Roadside Protest – Monday afternoon, Anniversary Weekend!

    Auckland Coal Action is once again demonstrating beside State Highway 2 on Anniversary Day.

    This time, we have something to celebrate. Fonterra has backed off from opening a new coal mine at Mangatawhiri. Possibly, the mine will never happen.

    Please join us to celebrate! BUT, also, to remind Fonterra that Climate Change means NO new coal mines, at Mangatawhiri, or at the Solid Energy site at Maramarua, or anywhere else. (Our info is that Fonterra may be backing away from their new mine at Mangatawhiri because Solid Energy is planning to open up the coal seam at the K1 mine at Maramarua, with Fonterra as their main customer. Duh! In this era of Climate Change, NO new coal mine makes sense.)

    All are welcome – especially if you’ve never been on a demonstration before. These are fun and friendly occasions, but the issue could not be more important.

    We must act now to safeguard our young people’s future.

    We must keep raising awareness of the dangers of Climate Change.

    We must keep getting our “No New Coal Mines” message out!

    By spending a few hours out at Mangatawhiri on State Highway 2 with signs and banners we will reach thousands of people driving home after the long weekend. These roadside demonstrations have been a great success in raising awareness of Fonterra’s coal dependence.

    OUR MESSAGE IS GETTING THROUGH!

    When? Be there as long as you can between 3pm and 6pm on Monday January 26.

    Where? On the south (Auckland-bound) side of State Highway 2 at the corner of Homestead Road and Bell Road, by the Homestead Road overbridge.

    How to get there? From Auckland, take the turnoff to Mangatawhiri from State Highway 2. (NB this road is called Mangatawhiri Road, not Mangatangi Road as Google Maps claims).

    To get there coming from the east, take the Golf Road turnoff.

    What to do beforehand? Tell your friends. Forward this email to somebody else. Bring others with you if you can.

    What do I need to bring?? It’s probably going to be hot, so cover up, wear a sunhat, and bring snacks and water bottles and sunscreen. A sun umbrella might be handy.

    If you have any questions, if you do not have transport, or if you can offer somebody a lift, call or text Pat 021 066 9009 or Geoff 027 384 7927, landline 528 9450.

    The dairy industry depends on our benign climate.

    So do we all, for our daily food.

    It don’t make no sense to destroy the climate!

    Please support us if you possibly can

    The government claims that New Zealand contributes so little to the world’s greenhouse gas emissions that what we do doesn’t matter. But it would be very hard to find another group of 4 million people anywhere in the world which throws as much carbon into the atmosphere as we do. We are world leaders in per capita greenhouse gas emissions

    If Kiwis don’t have a responsibility to act on Climate Change, nobody does

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    • Gosman 5.1
      22 January 2015 at 4:17 pm

      Do you have alternatives for Fonterra to use rather than Coal?

      • McFlock 5.1.1
        22 January 2015 at 4:22 pm

        why should anyone provide Fonterra with alternatives?
        Necessity is the mother of invention. Fonterra will develop their own alternatives.

      • Naki man 5.1.2
        22 January 2015 at 6:22 pm

        Some Fonterra sites use gas fired cogeneration units

      • Draco T Bastard 5.1.3
        22 January 2015 at 6:44 pm

        What do Fonterra use coal for? Personally, I can’t think of anything that Fonterra makes that requires coal in it’s production.

        • TheContrarian 5.1.3.1
          22 January 2015 at 6:51 pm

          Really Draco, do you really need a http://lmgtfy.com/?q=fonterra+coal link?

        • lprent 5.1.3.2
          22 January 2015 at 7:03 pm

          Heat. Have you ever tried to dehydrate milk to get milk powder without deforming the fat molecules that you are trying to sell?

          A very energy intensive process that requires vast volumes of very carefully controlled heat. Usually provided by using steam.

          Yes you could do it with electricity. But that is a whole lot of maintenance compared to a classic furnace + steam plant.

          • Draco T Bastard 5.1.3.2.1
            22 January 2015 at 8:37 pm

            So, the answer would be nothing. Just as I expected.

            Using electricity would be somewhat less efficient but considering climate change that’s not an issue really.

        • Colonial Rawshark 5.1.3.3
          22 January 2015 at 7:11 pm

          Draco, this is why I worry about you planning the industrial and technological future of NZ.

          NB many dairy plants use NG instead of coal nowadays.

          • Naki man 5.1.3.3.1
            22 January 2015 at 9:17 pm

            “NB many dairy plants use NG instead of coal nowadays.”

            That is true, The NG is used to produce steam to spin the turbines that make the electricity that runs the plant. The steam that comes off the turbines is then used for heating in the evaporation and drying process.

            • tricledrown 5.1.3.3.1.1
              22 January 2015 at 10:04 pm

              Bullshit! Naki man in the South Island its all Coal.

            • tricledrown 5.1.3.3.1.2
              22 January 2015 at 10:28 pm

              Nakered man 55% of all Fonterra’s energy comes from coal.
              You would think they could go for wind and Sun as this would save transport costs.

      • Pat O'Dea 5.1.4
        23 January 2015 at 6:58 pm

        “Do you have alternatives for Fonterra to use rather than Coal?”
        GOSMAN comment 5.1

        In answer to your question Gosman; The short answer is, YES.

        In a detailed submission provided to the planning hearing, Auckland Coal Action put to Fonterra, a rigorous scientific study of the available local wood chip resource, a biproduct of the local Forestry Industry, and an arguably viable replacement for coal.

        The submission (presented by Jeanette Fitzsimmons) on behalf of Auckland Coal Action, was ruled inadmissible as evidence by the Chairman of the proceedings David Hill.

        Not considered relevant

        On the first day of hearings, Chairman David Hill explained those types of evidence that would not be considered relevant to this consent application. These included:

        * any decrease in property values as a result of the mine
        * arguments on alternative fuels to coal
        * climate change

        He argued that as the end use of the coal was not a part of the consent application (only its extraction and transportation) that the possibility of alternative fuels being available could not be raised.

        Jeanette Fitzsimons appeared at the end of the week to challenge this ruling and was granted leave to present evidence on wood waste as an alternative fuel to coal although the commissioners declared in advance they would not give this argument much weight.

        Mangatangi Mine Hearings Week One

        But in the final analysis, Gosman, as some have mentioned in this thread; Providing alternatives to coal is not ACA’s problem to solve, but Fonterra’s. ACA’s brief is; NO NEW COAL MINES. A policy that ACA share with both the Green and Mana Parties.

        And in Mangatangi, we have been successful in implementing this policy on the ground.

        And the battle continues….

        Following our victory at Mangatangi, our next target is likely to be stopping Solid Energy’s plans to repopen the old Kopuku 1 open cast mine at Maramarua. Closed down in the ’90s, K1 used to supply the decommissioned Meremere Coal fired Power Station.

        ACA consider the reopening of the mothballed K1, to be in affect, another “New Coal Mine”. And as such, we intend to shut down this operation as well.

        Let Fonterra, or whoever proposes to buy this coal from Solid Energy, find their own alternative solutions, (and in the process become world leaders.)

        Welcome to Newcoal Free New Zealand.

        • Pat O'Dea 5.1.4.1
          23 January 2015 at 9:09 pm

          One of the reasons that that fossil fuel users like Fonterra won’t consider alternatives are the huge government subsidies given to fossil fuel companies to carry on their pollutiing ways.

          Fossil Fuel Subsidies Are Starving innovation

          The tens of $millions given to foreign oil companies to entice them to our waters, The quarter $billion give to Solid Energy to keep them from bankruptcy, the $millions given Ti Wai Smelter to keep open, (Ensuring coal fired Huntly keeps operating to meet the electricity deficit. (And give Solid Energy a customer).
          Per capital New Zealanders are the world’s number 1 in subsidising fossil fuel companies.

  6. ianmac 6
    22 January 2015 at 9:07 am

    Herald Editorial. A pretty good critique of the Key plan to use troops against ISIS. Who would have thought this from the Herald!!!
    The Prime Minister has told a BBC interviewer New Zealand’s military contribution to the war against jihadists in Iraq and Syria is “the price of the club”. Mr Key’s candour can be applauded but not its message. When New Zealand commits armed forces to a foreign conflict, even in a (hopefully) non-combat role, it should be entirely of its own volition, on its own judgment that the mission is justified, well-equipped, clear and achievable. Not for the reasons Mr Key has given.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11389917

    • Paul 6.1
      22 January 2015 at 9:13 am

      Key is in Davos at the moment promising NZ soldiers away so he can access the corridors of power.
      Revolting.

    • Molly 6.2
      22 January 2015 at 9:46 am

      I have friends and family in the Defence Force and their characters and integrity are much more honourable than that of the idiot ‘club member’ that has the say on where they go.

      I’m hoping they (and others) leave so this foolish excuse for a PM cannot take advantage of their idea of service.

    • tracey 6.3
      22 January 2015 at 10:01 am

      Mr Key comes from a nod and a wink, you scratch my back and I will scratch yours, career… why is anyone surprised?

      • Rodel 6.3.1
        22 January 2015 at 11:03 am

        Your reference to Key’s ‘nod and wink’ reminds me of this quote: sorry its not directly relevant but its from a website. – weaselwords.com.au , a site which has relevance to our Nat politicians but I think not to Andrew Little.

        The quote:
        “Those who know Mr Abbott – and have seen him operate up close over many years – also note he is a prolific winker. It’s a technique he uses to draw others in and put them at ease – a part of his communications tool box.’ Matthew Knott, The Age online, 21 May, 2014.”

        The only thing I’d question is the first vowel in ‘winker’.

  7. phillip ure 7
    22 January 2015 at 9:50 am

    (this is from the guardian this morn..)

    “..Feminists today are too obsessed with their own elite metropolitan lives..

    ..Rather than boardroom quotas and shortlists –

    – women should be speaking out about the millions of low-paid females propping up the service economy..”

    (cont..)

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/21/feminists-obsessed-elite-metropolitan-lives-low-paid-females

    • weka 7.1
      22 January 2015 at 9:54 am

      Wealthy people are obessed with wealthy people issues. What’s new?

      • Colonial Rawshark 7.1.1
        22 January 2015 at 9:57 am

        So are the wannabe wealthy

      • tracey 7.1.2
        22 January 2015 at 10:02 am

        womens refuge for instance is run by men…

        oh wait.

        • weka 7.1.2.1
          22 January 2015 at 10:04 am

          yes, why is that a reply to my comment?

          • tracey 7.1.2.1.1
            22 January 2015 at 10:15 am

            no, in response to ms wolf telling feminists to stand up for low paid women instead of seeking better representation on Boards and as CEO’s… 😉

            women/feminists have been speaking out for a long time about low pay for females. It is feminists that have made it possible indirectly for Ms Wolf to achieve her standing and full time academic position, crossbench peerage, access to Ministers etc.

            More women on Boards will mean more women in time as CEO’s and CEO’s make decisions about wages for workers and respect for workers and working environments for workers.

            Mind you Ms Wolf’s favourite pastime is making jam from her kitchen in Tuscany ;

            0

            • Colonial Rawshark 7.1.2.1.1.1
              22 January 2015 at 10:22 am

              More women on Boards will mean more women in time as CEO’s and CEO’s make decisions about wages for workers and respect for workers and working environments for workers.

              Women are just as power hungry and greedy as Wall St CEOs as men are.

              People who make it to the CxO level make it there because of exactly that.

              • tracey …
                22 January 2015 at 10:40 am

                actually research shows that white men hire white men in very high percentages, higher percentages than white women hire white women and black men hire black men.

                Do a number of women who make it to boards and CEO do so because they are using very male/patriarchal characteristics to do so? Yes But also women are making it who brings some different sets to the table. So women don’t have to be like men to “make it”.

                And not all CEO’s are like CEO’s of wall street.

                postscript: women are not perfect (for some reason such riders still have to be stated here)

                • phillip ure …
                  22 January 2015 at 10:48 am

                  “..women are not perfect..”

                  won’t hear a word of it..!

                • adam …
                  22 January 2015 at 12:42 pm

                  The rider stands Tracey, because our culture keeps producing unwitting males for the patriarchal chop shop.

                • Colonial Rawshark …
                  22 January 2015 at 10:39 pm

                  postscript: women are not perfect (for some reason such riders still have to be stated here)

                  That’s rather presumptuous don’t you think? Who exactly did you think needed to be reminded of that fact?

              • millsy …
                22 January 2015 at 9:57 pm

                Ruth Richardson
                Jenny Shipley
                Margaret Thatcher.

                All were women.

                They ’empowered’ women like taking someone’s wheelchair empowers them to walk.

                Good article up there as well.

                • Colonial Rawshark …
                  22 January 2015 at 10:35 pm

                  And how could we forget that corporate hunter Odgers about whom we have heard so much today.

                  Bottom line is that female corporatists may be different, but they aren’t necessarily any better for the 99%.

                • weka …
                  22 January 2015 at 10:45 pm

                  Ruth Richardson
                  Jenny Shipley
                  Margaret Thatcher.

                  All were women.

                  They ‘empowered’ women like taking someone’s wheelchair empowers them to walk.

                  Marilyn Waring
                  Jeanette Fitzsimons
                  Metiria Turei

                  What’s your point exactly?

  8. Colonial Rawshark 8
    22 January 2015 at 10:02 am

    US Govt pushes media not to report important stories

    Including how a US diplomat arrested in Pakistan was a CIA agent, how a US businessman who disappeared inside Iran was working for the CIA, etc.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-01-21/how-us-government-convinces-newspaper-kill-story

    • Paul 8.1
      22 January 2015 at 10:13 am

      And this from the Guardian

      ‘Our ‘impartial’ broadcasters have become mouthpieces of the elite’
      ‘If you think the news is balanced, think again. Journalists who should challenge power are doing its dirty work
      When people say they have no politics, it means that their politics aligns with the status quo. None of us are unbiased, none removed from the question of power. We are social creatures who absorb the outlook and opinions of those with whom we associate, and unconciously echo them. Objectivity is impossible.
      The illusion of neutrality is one of the reasons for the rotten state of journalism, as those who might have been expected to hold power to account drift thoughtlessly into its arms. But until I came across the scandal currently erupting in Canada, I hadn’t understood just how quickly standards are falling…….

      read more at
      http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/20/broadcasters-mouthpieces-of-elite-balanced-news-journalists

      George Monbiot could have looked at the NZ media and found the same.

      • Colonial Rawshark 8.1.1
        22 January 2015 at 10:20 am

        People in the west need to learn very quickly how much we are propagandised…both through the mass media of commission and the mass media of omission.

        • Paul 8.1.1.1
          22 January 2015 at 11:15 am

          Asleep at the wheel sadly.

        • nadis 8.1.1.2
          22 January 2015 at 1:49 pm

          Let me correct that for you:

          People in the west on planet earth need to learn very quickly how much we are propagandised…both through the mass media of commission and the mass media of omission.

        • The Murphey 8.1.1.3
          22 January 2015 at 3:32 pm

          It’s not restricted to media

          The propaganda runs through all and any interface of communication

      • greywarshark 8.1.2
        22 January 2015 at 10:55 pm

        Good link Paul and solid seeming facts to back it up.

    • Skinny 8.2
      22 January 2015 at 12:17 pm

      The Bush clan built up the CIA & FBI after getting exposed for too much dirty conduct. These latest revelations appear it’s gone beyond business as usual and they now have the dog wagging the tail in America. Obama is pretty much a complying puppet.

      Things are shaping up grim with so many rights being stripped away in the last 2-3 years, and it just keeps getting worst. The doomsday clock is getting that much closer to chime. Phones will be running hot amongst the doomsday preppers.

  9. Morrissey 9
    22 January 2015 at 10:04 am

    The Servility of Token Dissidents: Jon Stewart and the Media
    by ROSS BRUMMET, OpEd News, 30 January 2013
    http://www.opednews.com/articles/The-Servility-of-Token-Dis-by-Ross-Brummet-130129-730.html

    Once, when giving an interview about the servility of the western press, Noam Chomsky was reproached by BBC journalist Andrew Marr, who demanded that Chomsky explain how he could know that Marr or other journalists were self-censoring. Noam Chomsky responded that he never suggested that Marr was self-censoring, that he was sure that Marr believed everything he was saying. It was just that, as Chomsky noted at the time: “if you believed something different, you wouldn’t be sitting where you’re sitting.”

    What Chomsky meant, as thoroughly described in Manufacturing Consent, is that media organizations are made up of vested corporate interests and those interests have little interest in hiring people whose interests don’t coincide with their interests. Often times, we forget this because some media personality seems likable, even honest. Sometimes this personality even plays the role of a dissident, criticizing relatively obvious or corrupt targets while ignoring more fundamental ones. These popular dissidents serve to reinforce the illusion that the media, while at times corrupt, is not inherently flawed. That, in fact, there remains trustworthy watchdogs within it keeping us informed and holding power to account.

    Many popular journalists and stories serve this function of illusionary dissidence. A celebration of a news show questioning a witch-hunt, a newspaper exposing blatant partisan corruption, a journalist exposing a blatantly illegal act. All of these things have one thing common: they have support of some power institutions. While these journalists may have acted nobly, they acted nobly within a certain acceptable framework. Yes, powerful factions had reason to oppose these stories, but other powerful factions had reasons to support them — the Democratic Party didn’t want to be spied upon, few advocate pointless sadism, and even the president didn’t like McCarthy. Without this essential support, these stories of crusading journalism would have been left unheard; much like the coup of Jacobo Arbenz, or COINTELPRO, or the Fallujah massacre. We are told about the evils of McCarthyism, but not the evils of coups. The evils of wiretapping those with power, but not the evils of more serious infractions on those without power. The evils of torture, but not the evils of indiscriminate bombings. We thus create the image of dissidence, while also discrediting any serious expression of it.

    Perhaps the most popular token dissidents of today’s American society are Jon Stewart, Stephen Colbert, and their gang of court jesters. Occasionally this group of comics express some well-thought-out criticism of the absurdities of American society — for instance, consider Jon Stewart’s recent criticism on the lack of gun control — but more often their shows exist to reinforce existing opinions. Because these people are genuinely funny, we often find ourselves ignoring the usual displays of servility. Consider Stephen Colbert’s interview with Kathryn Bigelow, in which he repeatedly let her suggest the fallacious idea that torture played a role in the assassination of Bin Laden. This servility is so common, however, that it often goes without comment. We don’t expect Colbert to confront Bigelow with facts, any more than we would expect Jon Stewart to ask a General serious questions. We accept this kind of acquiescence to power as an inevitable part of their shows. It’s not that they aren’t on our side; this is just an unfortunate constraint of working for the mass media.

    However, whether it’s Stewart apologizing for suggesting that Hiroshima and Nagasaki are war crimes, Colbert’s bizarrely aggressive interview with Julian Assange, or their “do nothing” protest, we are inevitably struck by the reality that they are simple servants to the rich and powerful. The latest example of this groveling behavior…..

    Read more….
    http://www.opednews.com/articles/The-Servility-of-Token-Dis-by-Ross-Brummet-130129-730.html

    • Colonial Rawshark 9.1
      22 January 2015 at 10:13 am

      Chris Hedges notes that the 1930s cabarets of Nazi Germany would poke fun at the likes of Göring and Goebbels. The shows would make fun of some idiotic event, outrageous behaviour, dumb comment etc. Everyone would laugh, nod their heads, blow a bit of steam off.

      But at no time would any serious call to change what was happening occur.

      And everyone would just continue on.

      • Morrissey 9.1.1
        22 January 2015 at 10:23 am

        Peter Cook brilliantly paid tribute to the Weimar Theatre and “the crucial role it played in curbing the rise of the Nazis”.

        The difference, of course, is that the comedians in Berlin cabarets would have been severely beaten, even killed, if they had gone too far and drawn attention to the crimes of the regime. If the likes of Stewart, Letterman, Oliver or Colbert did that, nothing would happen to them. They are cowards, with nothing more to worry about than being fired by their corporate employers.

        There is little or no tolerance for the occasional genuine dissenter who manages to make it onto corporate television…..

        • Te Reo Putake 9.1.1.1
          22 January 2015 at 11:25 am

          Hmmm, not actually the Peter Cook quote, Moz. But good point, generally. The best satirists can do is poke fun at our leaders and occasionally get them to over-react. Mostly they are more of a comfort to us than a problem for authority figures.

          ps, I see both the topic, and the Cook quote, get an airing here: http://werewolf.co.nz/2009/07/from-the-hood-2/

    • ianmac 9.2
      22 January 2015 at 11:07 am

      Thought provoking Morrissey. Thanks.

  10. Colonial Rawshark 10
    22 January 2015 at 10:10 am

    CIA “owns” many journalists in large media organisations through paid trips, scholarships, providing important contacts, etc

    Some historical precedences are listed:

    Operation Mockingbird, which began in the 1950s, was a secret CIA operation which recruited journalists to serve as mouthpieces for the American government. The program was officially terminated after it was exposed by the famous Church Committee investigations, but evidence of ongoing CIA influence over the media continues to accumulate.

    Just last week Glenn Greenwald’s (of Edward Snowden fame) new groundbreaking investigative website, The Intercept, charged that the CIA leveraged its considerable influence – some might even say friendship – with media in order to discredit Gary Webb, the fearless American journalist who uncovered CIA cocaine trafficking as part of the Iran-Contra scandal of the 1980s.

    http://rt.com/news/196984-german-journlaist-cia-pressure/

    http://russia-insider.com/en/tv_politics_media_watch/2014/11/05/04-27-30pm/top_german_editor_cia_bribing_journalists

    • freedom 10.1
      22 January 2015 at 10:36 am

      and the beat goes on,
      the beat goes on

    • ropata:rorschach 10.2
      22 January 2015 at 10:57 pm

      Beat me to it CV… good post. Explains a lot.

    • The Murphey 10.3
      22 January 2015 at 11:24 pm

      Q. So the numerous dual Israeli citizens masquerading as politicians in the US system and around the world are potentially Mossad ?

      • McFlock 10.3.1
        22 January 2015 at 11:32 pm

        the use of “masquerading” presupposes the answer to your “question”. But given that it’s a stupid question anyway (labelled assets are not useful assets), pretty much business as usual. 🙄

        • The Murphey 10.3.1.1
          22 January 2015 at 11:39 pm

          Q. How can you be sure that ‘labelled assets are not useful assets’ ?

          Q. Are you in the ‘spy business’ ?

          Q. Sure you’re not still carrying excess baggage captain ?

          • McFlock 10.3.1.1.1
            22 January 2015 at 11:54 pm

            In answer to your latest idiocy:
            A. bloody obvious
            A. if I were I wouldn’t tell you
            A. If you refuse to make an explicit point, nothing you say can give anyone “baggage”.

            • The Murphey 10.3.1.1.1.1
              23 January 2015 at 12:49 am

              Q. Are you pleased with the derail ?

              Leave the response for CR next time would be my suggestion

              • McFlock …
                23 January 2015 at 1:28 am

                A. It wasn’t a “derail”. I merely pointed out the absurdity of your leading question. The most dangerous assets in the US- like Hanssen, Ames, the Walkers, Boyce (if his collaborator hadn’t been an idiot), R.L. Johnson- were the ones without obvious conflicts of interest.

  11. Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark 11
    22 January 2015 at 10:16 am

    George Galloway condemns ‘racist, Islamophobic, hypocritical rag’ Charlie Hebdo at freedom of speech rally

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/george-galloway-condemns-racist-islamophobic-hypocritical-rag-charlie-hebdo-at-freedom-of-speech-rally-9990490.html

    Thank you very much, George Galloway.

    • Colonial Rawshark 11.1
      22 January 2015 at 10:18 am

      He is quite something. But I still find it odd he sided with the NO crowd in the Scottish independence debate.

      • Ergo Robertina 11.1.1
        22 January 2015 at 11:07 am

        Yeah, plus that time he said rape was not rape if a woman had consented once.
        ”This is something which can happen, you know. I mean, not everybody needs to be asked prior to each insertion.”
        Really, Galloway condemning CH (and this argument has been thrashed, there’s nothing new in what he says) is hypocritical given he minimised sexual violence and benefited from being able to say whatever rubbish he was thinking.

        http://www.theguardian.com/media/2012/aug/20/george-galloway-julian-assange-rape

      • ropata:rorschach 11.1.2
        22 January 2015 at 11:03 pm

        Galloway’s approach may have been strategic as an independent Scotland would have meant splitting the Left vote … lots of liberal Scots tend to live/work in England, and independence (with voting based on residency) would have made Scotland lurch Right.

        I think Galloway was wrong though. My Scottish brother in law was spewing as he wasn’t eligible to vote YES. The Guardian had some great pieces in favour of independence as well.

  12. Treetop 12
    22 January 2015 at 11:46 am

    What is $800,000 US in NZD?

    This is the criteria in assets to be in the top 1% club.

    The more you have the more you can get is how it works for the top 1%.

  13. Morrissey 13
    22 January 2015 at 1:34 pm

    German Activist Against ‘Islamization’ Posed as Hitler for Facebook Photo
    by ROBERT MACKEY, New York Times, Jan. 21, 2015
    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/22/world/europe/german-activist-against-islamization-posed-as-hitler-for-facebook-photo.html

    A leading figure in a German protest movement against the supposed “Islamization” of Europe by Muslim immigrants stepped down Wednesday after the German tabloid Bild reported on its front page that he had posed as Adolf Hitler for a photograph posted on Facebook in September.

    The activist, Lutz Bachmann, 41, helped found an organization called Pegida, a German acronym for a name that translates roughly as Patriotic Europeans Against the Islamization of the West. The group has held weekly rallies in Dresden that attract up to 25,000 demonstrators. Opponents of the protest movement have derided its leaders as racists and neo-Nazis.

    “The wolf has taken off his sheepskin,” Ulla Jelpke, a leftist member of the German Parliament, told the newspaper Frankfurter Allgemeine. No one who takes part in Pegida’s rallies, she added, can now say that they were unaware of their “racist” undercurrent.

    Mr. Bachmann acknowledged to Bild that he had posted the image, along with the caption “He’s Back.” But he argued that it was merely a joke, inspired by the success of a satirical novel about Hitler returning to modern Germany, Look Who’s Back.

    Even so, a spokeswoman for Pegida, Kathrin Oertel, told news agencies late on Wednesday that Mr. Bachmann would step down from his leadership role in the movement as a result of the controversy over the image.

    This week’s protest in Dresden was called off after the police imposed a 24-hour ban on rallies. The police said that threats to kill Mr. Bachmann had been posted on social networks, including an Arabic-language tweet denouncing his group as “an enemy of Islam.” ……

    Read more…..
    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/22/world/europe/german-activist-against-islamization-posed-as-hitler-for-facebook-photo.html

  16. Draco T Bastard 16
    22 January 2015 at 2:48 pm

    Confirmed: US spy plane fleeing Russian jet invaded Swedish airspace

    US officials have confirmed Swedish media reports of a mid-July incident in which an American spy plane invaded Sweden’s airspace as it was evading a Russian fighter jet. The maverick plane was spying on Russia when it was intercepted.

    No, it wasn’t a maverick – it was there doing exactly what it’s commanders had told it to do – spy on Russia.

    Wonder if the US actually admits that that is an act of war.

      • Draco T Bastard 16.1.1
        22 January 2015 at 4:58 pm

        Between 17-27 October, 2014 a major submarine hunt by Swedish authorities was prompted by credible intelligence reports of “underwater activity” in the Stockholm archipelago in Swedish territorial waters. Supreme Commander General Sverker Göranson underlined that Sweden was ready to use “armed force” to bring the vessel to the surface if necessary. Russia issued denials and attempted to ridicule Swedish concerns. The major search operation stopped on Oct. 24.

        LO, that’s not an incident. The only people there were the Swedes.

        On 12 April 2014 an unarmed Russian fighter aircraft made 12 passes of the American warship the USS Cook in the Black Sea. Such aggressive behaviour, if repeated by an armed aircraft, could have resulted in the ship commander targeting the aircraft in an act of self-defence.

        That’s actually the US being aggressive. You do know where the Black Sea is right?

        In early September, 2014 Russian strategic bombers in the Labrador Sea near Canada practiced cruise missile strikes on the United States. The Russian aircraft stayed outside of Canada’s ADIZ but this was still a provocative move in light of the NATO summit ongoing at the time.

        And that would be typical double standards. The West goes round putting military assets near Russia if not in Russian airspace for reconnaissance and then complains when the Russians do the same back.

        In fact, most of those seem to be Russian responses to Western aggression.

      • Colonial Rawshark 16.1.2
        22 January 2015 at 7:18 pm

        The USA is not going to tolerate Russia putting missile bases in Cuba with an MRBM flight time of 10 minutes to DC.

        So why the fuck should Russia tolerate the USA putting missile bases in Ukraine with a flight time of 10 minutes to Moscow? Especially when NATO has already established missile bases in Poland with a 15 minute flight time to Moscow.

        • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark 16.1.2.1
          22 January 2015 at 9:30 pm

          +1
          very astute comment

        • McFlock 16.1.2.2
          22 January 2015 at 9:54 pm

          If the Ukraine wants nukes on its territory, it’ll make its own. Ones like the ones it gave up.

          • Colonial Rawshark 16.1.2.2.1
            23 January 2015 at 12:00 am

            LOL.

            You gotta be kidding.

            Those were Soviet era weapons that the Ukranians do not have the infrastructure nor money to recreate. (They’ve basically destroyed their own heavy industry and alloys manufacturing capability in the Donbas). The Ukranians don’t even have effective uranium enrichment facilities any more; they have to get all their nuclear fuel from either Russia or Westinghouse.

            Plus, what are the Ukranians going to do to get it to Moscow once they build a nuclear warhead? Fly across and push it out the back of one of their bombers?

            The Ukranians can’t manufacture ballistic missiles capable of carrying a nuclear warhead.

            Finally, do you seriously think that NATO would allow the Ukraine to develop an independent nuke warhead capability (just in time for the next colour revolution?).

            No, they just want NATO nukes in there under NATO control. Without the launch keys in the hands of whoever is running Kiev any given month.

            Think about it.

            • McFlock 16.1.2.2.1.1
              23 January 2015 at 12:03 am

              That’s what they said about Pakistan /sarc

            • Murray Rawshark 16.1.2.2.1.2
              23 January 2015 at 1:21 am

              I suspect you’re wrong, CR. Ukraine probably has the ability to produce fusion weapons, and the seppos possibly wouldn’t do much to stop them. As to a delivery mechanism, they have Su-24s which can carry an 8000 kg payload. In Russian service they were able to carry tactical nuclear weapons. How far they’d be able to penetrate Russian airspace is another question.

  17. freedom 17
    22 January 2015 at 4:57 pm

    to lighten things up we can always rely on Stuff
    http://i.imgur.com/kIE1QNY.jpg

    • phillip ure 17.1
      22 January 2015 at 6:42 pm

      he’s telling cameron to make sure he doesn’t forget to pretend to ‘care’ about the poor..

      ..he suggested getting a 12 yr old poor-child (preferably a girl..)..to take to somewhere like stonehenge..

      ..he knows from experience how the mug-punters fall like drunken rugby-heads for that one..

      ..(he tells cameron to make sure he gets phot-ops holding the 12 yr olds hand in a solicitous-manner..

      ..’cos that is what really clinches the deal..)

      ..now we can sit back and see if cameron uses that page from keys’ playbook..

  19. phillip ure 19
    22 January 2015 at 7:51 pm

    “..5 Famous Actresses Who’ve Smoked Weed – and Don’t Try to Hide It..

    ..Cameron Diaz.

    There’s something about marijuana for the star of The Mask – Bad Teacher – and last year’s Sex Tape.

    Not only has she been famously photographed sharing a joint with Drew Barrymore-

    – she’s been toking for so long that she claims Snoop Dogg was her dealer back in high school..”

    (and..)

    “..Kirsten Dunst

    A baleful influence in her youth may have set her on the path of reefer madness:

    “My best friend Sasha’s dad was Carl Sagan the astronomer.

    He was the biggest pot smoker in the world – and he was a genius..”

    (cont..)

    http://whoar.co.nz/2015/5-famous-actresses-whove-smoked-weed-and-dont-try-to-hide-it/

  20. Draco T Bastard 20
    22 January 2015 at 8:48 pm

    Auckland Transport releases propaganda

    The proposed works will help the entire Waterview, State Highway 16, State Highway 20 complex operate to its full potential, which will also help reduce Auckland’s congestion.

    They seemed, just like National, to have missed reality over the last 50 years that shows that more roads brings more congestion.

    • Robert Glennie 20.1
      22 January 2015 at 9:36 pm

      Totally agree. And that some cities overseas are making honest efforts to reduce their residents reliance on cars, by banning private vehicles from the city centre to promote walking, cycling and so forth.

      But would any City Council be brave enough to try something similar here? Doubt it.

  21. millsy 21
    22 January 2015 at 10:06 pm

    Hey Milt,

    Can you please explain to me why you want to dismantle the welfare system and have poor people living on the streets?

  22. Chipmunk 22
    22 January 2015 at 10:14 pm

    Amazing,isn’t it, the piety with which objections to dope are expressed in official quarters which are simultaneously happily poised to sign the TPPA which will give tobacco corporations more power to overcome any national curbs on smoking. It happened in Australia when Phillip Morris sued the state for its plain packaging legislation because it was an impediment to the hallowed principle of unfettered market forces.

  23. fisiani 23
    22 January 2015 at 11:07 pm

    Activity in New Zealand’s manufacturing sector rose last month to its highest level in a decade http://nzh.nu/HJLAG
    I thought there was supposed to be a manufacturing crisis. The sky is falling!!
    Whaddya gonna declare a crisis next?

    • McFlock 23.1
      22 January 2015 at 11:18 pm

      what is it excluding meat and dairy, herr gobbler?

      • mac1 23.1.1
        22 January 2015 at 11:39 pm

        It’s animals what do the manufacture with meat and dairy, and humans what do the processing. I bet that meat and dairy, our really big exports, aren’t even part of manufacturing. We are really one big farm or vineyard, owned overseas and should be classed as Third World.

        Considering also that we had a Global crisis some seven plus years ago, there should be some recovery by now, especially since three good earthquakes (I do live in Marlborough, after all) have helped along our building, demolition and recycling industries.

        And all having very little to do with seven years of National government, and I bet Fisiani can’t point to much that they’ve done to help positively.

        And I note that Fisiani doesn’t claim the downturn in dairy, the halving of incomes, as an achievement of our National government.

        It’s an aberration of the normal Tory ethic- nationalise the cost and privatise the profits. In Fisiani’s world, we Nationalise the profitable and blame the rest on Labour………….

        Still, there’s a silver cloud in every horizon. Maybe NZ farming will return to more climate sensitive produce such as grapes which rather like hot weather so long as there’s water available, and vines don’t pollute waterways as does dairy.

        • Ergo Robertina 23.1.1.1
          22 January 2015 at 11:52 pm

          Re the grapes, it would be good to see NZ develop a table grape market rather than just wine varieties. I won’t buy them if imported, so pretty much miss them unless given home-grown ones. They seem to grow well here too, even in the south.

    • ropata:rorschach 23.2
      22 January 2015 at 11:58 pm

      Hooray, we have returned to 2008 levels! A testament to Kiwi hard work despite the idiotic claims of the gnats and their groupies.

      Our low wage economy is one reason why we are becoming the Bangalore of the Pacific.

      If they start counting PR puff pieces and astroturfing as ‘manufacturing’, we’ll be in the stratosphere.

      • mac1 23.2.1
        23 January 2015 at 10:14 am

        You’re right about the low wage economy, ropata. Here in Marlborough we have the lowest wage economy in the country, eighty per cent of our vineyards are owned outside the province, and we import labour from the Islands to share in our low wage economy. The Ni-Vans really do contribute in interesting and cultural ways to our community, so I’m not saying they should not be here- there is so much work in the vineyards, but they are lower paid workers and some contractors still exploit them.

        That is why I refer to a third world economy, based on extraction of primary produce and the expatriation of profits elsewhere, away from the local economy via these firms or the recent introduction of national retail firms which pay low wages and whose profits also go away.