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Price of milk your fault

Written By: - Date published: 6:16 pm, September 15th, 2011 - 198 comments
Categories: capitalism, farming, food - Tags: , ,

I thought we were paying “international prices” for milk, but perhaps not. In a move today that just lost them the public relations war forever…

Consumers at fault for high milk prices – Fed Farmers

New Zealand consumers are at fault for the high price of milk because they have not “utilised their power to shop around”, Federated Farmers told the select committee conducting the parliamentary inquiry into the price of milk today.

Federated Farmers dairy chairperson Willy Leferink says the “inquiry is not necessary” and is “quite confident the price is set right”.

“Are New Zealanders paying too much for milk? We don’t think so,” he says, “consumers have not utilised their power to shop around”.

Well I’m glad we got that all sorted out then.

198 comments on “Price of milk your fault”

  1. r0b 1

    Just want to clarify that I’m in no way “anti farmer”.  I’ve spent my whole life camping annually on farm land, I grew up with the local farming families, I’m forever in their debt.  Salt of the earth one and all.

    But – Fed Farmers – seriously – what were you thinking? 

    • Scott 1.1

      Yeah, how does one shop around in a monopoly?

      • Bill 1.1.1

        “Yeah, how does one shop around in a monopoly?”

        With a bags of futility.

        • Rusty Shackleford 1.1.1.1

          There is about a 80c difference in price between the brands for a 2L bottle of milk.

          Where is the monopoly? There are at least 5 brands of milk.

          If you mean Fonterra, you are wrong. They are a monopsony (single buyer), not a monopoly (single seller).

          • McFlock 1.1.1.1.1

            Nice one, Rusty. So really, the only milk consumer in the country is Fonterra? 
             
            How’s the milk market in Somalia? I hear they’re distributing it for free…

            • Rusty Shackleford 1.1.1.1.1.1

              Fonterra doesn’t consume milk.

              blah, blah, blah North Korea.

              • McFlock

                step by step, bucko – fonterra BUYS the milk, and is the only purchaser. Then what does Fonterra DO with the milk?

                Fonterra then SELLS the milk. And because it bought ALL the milk, it pretty much has a monopoly in the NZ market (or at least dictatorially controlling market share). 
                  
                 
                Are you seriously incapable of assessing so little information that you reckoned fonterra bought the milk, with no concept of what it did with it afterwards? Or were you just throwing definitions out there in pretence of an approaching-average IQ?

                • Rusty Shackleford

                  They don’t buy all the milk. As insider pointed out there are a few other small players. Also there is nothing stopping another firm from opening (I don’t think) in order to buy milk from farmers to then flick on to the distributors. In the distribution of milk, there is no monopoly.

                  • davidc

                    They dont buy any of the milk because they already own it.
                    Farmers own the milk and also own Fonterra.

                    • Rusty Shackleford

                      Sounds like a cartel to me. It won’t persist if farmers find they can get a better deal by selling to other firms. The only way a cartel can persist in the long term is if it is legislated for by the govt

                    • lprent []

                      You should look more closely at cartels. You are referring to one of the two types – the government licensed one. They always fall within a generation when they outlive their economic utility (usually in building a infrastructure) in democracies. In other forms of states usually a rebellion or revolution induces change.

                      The other type is more dangerous, it forms during new technology introductions or merging of dominant players in an industry. The thing that sustains them is efficiencies of scale, especially in capital costs, ability to take losses to drive out competitors, and the ability to simply buy competitors. Usually the only way to break up that type of cartel once it has formed is through usually through regulation/legislation – the exact opposite of your theoretical and rather naively impracticable ideas.

                      Very very ocassionally through the last coupleof thousand years you will see a cartel get broken up by changes in technology if the people running the cartel get too stupid.

                    • Rusty Shackleford

                      Hi lprent. Can you please give a specific example of the first kind?

                      I had a big write up for you on the second kind but deleted it because I realised it better referred to quasi-monopolies like Apple, Google and Standard Oil. In that A. They weren’t really monopolies and B. provided amazing utility for people.
                      Instead, again I’d like to ask for an example.

                    • lprent []

                      I don’t have a lot of time or energy at present. So I will give you the best example I know of in the last thousand years of a cartel colluded between state and private industry.

                      Whenever I think of the first type of cartel I usually think of the chartered companies that were used to extract profit from trade routes. Probably the most extreme example was the Dutch East Indies Company which had probably the longest record I have ever seen for that type of government mandated organisation.

                      Whilst they were originally setup as a direct government mandated monopoly for the Dutch. After the original monopoly expired there were a number of other ventures set up as competition but in the Dutch and amongst other competitors. However a combination of political pressure, outright political bribery, some judicious ‘piracy’ by privateeers, and some classic monopolistic practices kept their opposition to a minimum for a very long period.

                      While their structure in theory was very like a modern listed company (at least for that period of history), internally it acted more like a cartel between moderately and nominally friendly competitors. Shareholder groups would provide vessels that would not only carry the companies freight, but also their own private freight as well (reading the shipping account differences between the DEI accounts and the dutch customs are pretty illuminating).

                      Anyway, it was probably one of the most interesting cartels in history. Extremely good for looking at the leverages between state power and the ‘private’. It was also the model that most companies tried to leverage their way into over the following centuries.

                      Offhand I cannot think of another government based cartel on a similar scale against the economies of the time. The Spanish in the 16th and 17th century while pulling in a much higher revenue were largely directly crown based enterprises using extractive techniques. The various cartels that Colbert and his successors set up in France from the late 17th century (and arguably led to revolutions a century later) were individually smaller.

                      There are much larger ones these days, but less against the economies they are embedded in.

                  • McFlock

                    So if they don’t buy all the milk, why bring up “monopsony”?
                    Oh, it must be on page 3 of the RWNJ handbook: derail a conversation by obsessing over definitions that turn out to be irrelevant anyway – when the real conversation is about the  facts on the ground: New Zealanders are charged too much for milk they need to buy, and the dairy farmer response is “ooo then don’t pay so much”.
                     
                     
                    Milk is a basic staple that we are being overcharged for. You RWNJs can wank about definitions all you want, but that’s a fact. Farmers don’t have to pay their way for the pollution they cause, but we get fucked for every ml of milk we buy.

                    • Rusty Shackleford

                      Let’s say they buy 90% of the milk. If one company SOLD 90% the milk to customers (which no one does) then you would be claiming they are a monopoly. I’m just saying that on your terms they are a monopsony, not a monopoly.

                      “Milk is a basic staple that we are being overcharged for.”
                      In what way? Plenty of people do just fine consuming other beverage and food stuffs. Personally I prefer cream. Milk spikes my blood sugar too much. What would be a fair price for milk?

                      “Farmers don’t have to pay their way for the pollution they cause,… ”
                      I agree with this. It sucks when property rights aren’t clearly defined.

                    • McFlock

                      On my terms? I replied to YOU. If Fonterra buy all the milk and aren’t the end user, but on-sell it to other people, then from that point in the market they are a monopoly. And the greater the market share, the closer they approach your inapplicable-to-the-real-world tight definition of “monopoly” or “monopsony”.
                        
                      And if, after reading the article and comments here, you are genuinely asking “in what way” we are being overcharged for milk, you’re a moron. If you’re being disngenuous, you’re just a fucking troll and all the platitudes you’ve previously made about wanting honest debate were lies.
                       
                      Credibility is a scarce resource, and you’ve used all yours up.
                        
                       

                    • What do you mean by “overcharged?” The price label said $3.50 but you were actually charged $3.70? If so, take it to the small claims court if they won’t refund you. However, if you mean by it that there’s some absolute value of milk based on your personal assessment of what you would prefer to pay for it, and shops are charging more than that, well, gee, that’s too bad. On that basis, I’m getting overcharged for beer and petrol every week.

          • insider 1.1.1.1.2

            They are not even a monopsony. There are independent co-ops with their own suppliers – Tatua and Westland the most prominent. That said, smallish market share for them

            • Rusty Shackleford 1.1.1.1.2.1

              One large supplier and a couple of small market share competitors is usually enough for the left to start jumping up and down about “monopolies” (and the phony right as well).

              • McFlock

                that’s because the condition you describe usually fucks the “market” so badly as to be, in practise, no different in result.

                • Rusty Shackleford

                  Depends. Probably true in the case of Fonterra (I don’t know what the legislative provisions behind the company are, seems like a cartel to me, the govt aren’t going to allow that without their say so).

                  If it is a voluntary state of affairs with no coercion from the state or the company, it will be beneficial for all concerned. As in the case of Standard Oil (I find it to be unlikely in the case of Fonterra).

                  • McFlock

                    rerun. Thought you might have been off preparing new material, but I guess not

                    • Rusty Shackleford

                      The truth doesn’t stop being true. No matter how many times you scream “SOMALIA!!!!!!” or “RWNJ!!!!!!!” at the top of your lungs.

                    • McFlock

                      You never address the truth.
                       
                      Maybe one day you’ll want to stop derailing threads with pedantry, and then take a look at the real world (of which Somalia is a part without state interference, and by your assertion was better off for it. The fact pretty much the rest of the planet is much better off than Somalia obviouslyy still does not compute). In the real world, not your theoretical randian wankaradise, the availability of milk or healthcare isn’t a banal intellectual exercise. For many of us, it’s a real fucking issue. Dick.

    • They were probably thinking that if someone is stupid enough to pay a shitload extra for the same Fonterra milk because it’s packaged as a brand rather than as budget plain-label stuff, more fool them. The average price of milk means jack shit, it’s the minimum price that you’re paying, or yes you’ve only yourself to blame.

  2. Fermionic Interference 2

    What I find difficult to come to terms with is, NZ milk and derived products, at times being cheaper in the UK than in NZ. So somehow it costs less to transport a product halfway round the world than just down the road??

    • Draco T Bastard 2.1

      That seems to happen quite a bit with NZ produced food – it’s cheaper to buy it thousands of kilometres away than it is to buy it just down the road.

    • Jimmy 2.2

      Its no mystery, the UK Government subsidises the milk products for the UK consumer, you cant make a direct comparison.

      • stever 2.2.1

        Really??/ The UK govt subsidies NZ milk for UK consumers??? Really??? Why would they???

        • Jimmy 2.2.1.1

          Ok maybe I didnt make myself clear, they subsidise Uk milk for the UK consumer, thats why UK milk appears cheaper than NZ milk sold in NZ.
          Liquid NZ milk is not available for sale in the UK.

          • rosy 2.2.1.1.1

            They subsidise the dairy industry, not the consumer. Not the same thing at all,. I’m not sure that it means lower prices for consumers, or richer dairy companies and overproduction.

            • Herodotus 2.2.1.1.1.1

              Was fortunate to be able to shop in Scotland recently. 2l of milk on sale for 0.86p normal price was 1.70-1.80 pounds. Even if they (Tescos in Oban) were selling it as a lost leader , I ask when if ever did a supermarket use milk as a lost leader ?
              As a side issue – we could not find anything that was more expensive in Scotland or London supermarkets than what we pay in NZ (sure I accept 1:2 exchange rate helps). Could even buy Oyster Bay Sav B 2010 on sale for less than 7 pounds normal price around 11pounds, and for a wine snob Ata Rangi pinot 2009 for less than 40 pounds in Peebles ( a wee wee village 25 miles outside Edinburgh) ps Drink Responsibly !!!

          • millsy 2.2.1.1.2

            Perhaps you should e-mail Maggie and ask her why she forgot to to address that…

          • Rich 2.2.1.1.3

            Isn’t available anywhere AFAIK. Fresh whole milk isn’t a transportable commodity, which is why Fonterra make lots of powder, yoghurt, UHT and the like.

            I believe that most UK farm production goes for domestic whole milk consumption, while a small percentage of NZ milk is used in this way. Also, you can get yummy premium organic milk from single herds (sometimes farm bottled) in the UK, but there’s pretty much none of that here.

  3. I saw them on TV3. I immediately realised that it was entirely my fault, that I had been a naught boy, took myself down to the woodshed for a severe disciplining.
    At least Sue Bradford hadn’t outlawed self-abuse. (and it’s not the sort that make you go blind!)
     
    What a bunch of tossers! They didn’t say, “It’s not us Gov'” and point the finger at the two supermarket owners who are really gouging on milk prices.
    The Farm Worker Union had no problem pointing the finger at the supermarkets.
     
    Which suggests that the Fed Farmers are in cosy a relationship with the supermarkets and didn’t want to offend them.

  4. Draco T Bastard 4

    Irrationality of the Free-Market

    A decision made on less than full information is an irrational decision and this is the mode as most people just don’t have access to the full information which, of course, results in the market being irrational.

    Shopping around to find the best deal has a cost and it’s entirely possible that a lot of people just can’t afford that cost. Or, as I’ve put it before, for the free-market to work everyone needs to be omniscient.

    • Jimmy 4.1

      The cost of shopping around is minimal, let your fingers do the walking.

      • Luxated 4.1.1

        Lets see, I could go to a Foodstuffs supermarket or a Progressive one, at both places I’ll have a choice between buying Fonterra milk or more Fonterra milk with a couple of smaller produces thrown in if you’re lucky. Just where are you supposed to go when the milk is produced by a monopoly and is distributed by a duopoly?

        • Jimmy 4.1.1.1

          Their is a big differance in the price of 2L milk depending on were you purchase it from!

          • Rusty Shackleford 4.1.1.1.1

            In a free market people (don’t have easy access to) perfect information. Under what system DO people have easy access to perfect info?

      • Draco T Bastard 4.1.2

        And if they don’t have a phone? Or perhaps they just don’t realise that the vege shop (which may not be in the phone book) also sells milk. Or they just don’t have time to go anywhere else when shopping. Or…

        The lack of knowledge about the market cause the market to be irrational.

        • Vicky32 4.1.2.1

          And if they don’t have a phone? Or perhaps they just don’t realise that the vege shop (which may not be in the phone book) also sells milk. Or they just don’t have time to go anywhere else when shopping. Or…

          Or they have to walk or bus everywhere, and carry everything they buy as I do). That pretty much limits where I can shop…

  5. Pascal's bookie 5

    They should shop around for carbon credits.

  6. drx 6

    Any one going to Aussie soon? Could I get you to pick up some milk for me?

  7. Rodel 7

    Only one way to lower the price. Don’t drink the stuff!
    We’re the only animal that eats another creature’s milky fluids and it’s not good for you anyway—- contributes to obesity etc. Wish cheese was cheaper though.

    • Jimmy 7.1

      We are the only animal huh, best you tell that to the birds, pigs, dogs, hedgehogs, rats, mice and cats that hang around the dairy shed waiting for the spilt milk.

    • …and it’s not good for you anyway—-

      Well, scientists reckon the genes for lactose tolerance spread so quickly because it provided such an enormous evolutionary advantage over the non-lactose tolerant. But what would they know?

      • burt 7.2.1

        The evolutionary impact of that would have been miniscule had there been supermarkets and fast food outlets around at that time.

      • Colonial Viper 7.2.2

        Well, scientists reckon the genes for lactose tolerance spread so quickly because it provided such an enormous evolutionary advantage over the non-lactose tolerant.

        In other words, people and their kids died off early because of dairy products and lactose intolerance, and were never able to successfully reproduce?

        Sounds like great food.

        • Carol 7.2.2.1

          so, what? Those of us born with a touch of lactose intolerance are some sort of Neanderthal throw-back? There’s still quite a lot of lactose intolerance around today.

        • Psycho Milt 7.2.2.2

          In other words, people and their kids died off early because of dairy products and lactose intolerance, and were never able to successfully reproduce?

          No, people who could digest a readily-available and very nutritious food source were better able to survive than people who couldn’t digest it. Natural selection isn’t actually that hard a concept to grasp if you make the attempt.

          Those of us born with a touch of lactose intolerance are some sort of Neanderthal throw-back?

          Alleles are agnostic about whether they make you a better person or not. As burt points out, the survival advantage conveyed by lactose tolerance is pretty much non-existant in the developed world now – I mentioned its evolutionary advantage in earlier times only as an example of why it’s ridiculous to claim milk is not a good food.

  8. tc 8

    Ah rodel…..cheese is made from same milk, just in case you didn’t know.

  9. randal 9

    farmers are their own cost accountants so they view the world a certain way most of the time. However too much 245t and other shit has done something to them over the last 40 years. They seem to have lost connection with other people and a few points on the bell curve too.

  10. tc 10

    The whole things a farce anyway, makes the govt look like they care and Fonterra’s has a monopoly and it’s always whining about having to supply to smaller concerns at regulated prices.

    Want cheap milk don’t buy in supermarkets, use Fonterra’s other brands sold through gas stations at much better prices. At least you’ll cut out the duopoly’s margins that way….thanks again rebstock.

    • Jimmy 10.1

      Yes Fonterra do whine about having to supply smaller concerns, thats because the smaller concerns are generally overseas owned, they pick up New Zealand milk for cost without having their own farmer supply base and export it for profit, no win for NZ at all.

      • insider 10.1.1

        No they pay Fonterra farm gate price plus 10c/kgms. Westland and TAtua are local co-ops. Any non NZ processors are relatively small.

  11. Bill 11

    Can the chart showing the drop off in international milk prices immediately after Fontera froze the price of milk in NZ (’cause they’re so altruistic), maybe be re-posted with regards to this?

  12. “Your comment is awaiting moderation.”

    NZ the land of milk and honey. Yeah right!

    NZ the land that borrows a $billion$ a month so big government can play the fool.

    NZ is one very sick land, just look at child abuse stats and Helen Clark’s new corrupt UN communist role.

    NZ is a thicko land of tit pullers.

    [lprent: the auto moderation identified your comment as potential spam or trolling. Perhaps you should reread it to find out why a dumb machine would think that? ]

    • mik e 12.1

      Now borrowing bill the double dipping dipstick from dipton is at it again , borowing another $2billion to pay farmers carbon taxes . That brings Govt debt up to $76 billion in 2014 .Borrow and hope light at the end of the tunnel last person leaving Nz turn out the lights because the power is to dear.Key is Muldoon in drag watch world cup cat walk.

    • Rich 12.2

      The auto-moderation is pretty much onto it. Yay for dumb machines.

  13. vto 13

    How is it that they can charge the highest price in the world for their milk but we cannot charge the highest price in the world for our labour?

    • burt 13.1

      You can charge whatever price you like for your Labour – just find 4m people prepared to pay that price and you have the same situation as milk. I’m sorry that Fonterra is a better negotiator than you but that’s the way it is.

      • vto 13.1.1

        You’re a fool burt. There is nothing like the “same situation” as with milk and that is the entire point.

        I will accept your dimwit proposition when that same milk is also limited to 4m people in NZ.

        ha ha ha – lets see what the price of milk would become if it was all limited to sale within NZ.

        Think fool think.

        • burt 13.1.1.1

          Oh I get it… Milk has a retail price and people continue to pay it – but that’s very different than a labour cost because…. You hopeless socialists – you think you have some divine right to tell other people what they can buy and sell stuff for and how much profit they should make.

          If you don’t like the price of milk – don’t buy it. If tomatoes were $300/kg I guess you wouldn’t think growing your own was a better idea than buying them – you would just want regulation to make them affordable for you. Grow up !

          • vto 13.1.1.1.1

            Foolishness confirmed.

            You go on about a level paying field free market mechanism being in operation and that should be sufficient etc. But, as I have pointed out here in this thread and you have studiously ignored, there aint no such level paying field free market.

            Fonterra can sell its goods across the world. We cannot sell our labour across the world.

            That is the fundamental flaw. Go and dwell on that and its implications, and perhaps do some brain growing up yourself.

            • burt 13.1.1.1.1.1

              Right, I get it. It’s very different because when you walk into a shop and see milk there is a person pointing a gun at your head making you pay the price it is being sold for. Hell here was me thinking you could walk out of the shop without buying milk.

              • vto

                Okay, so keep ignoring my point about the complete lack of comparable so-called level paying fields and free markets, even though that is the base on which Fonterra and you rest your flawed argument, and instead keep pushing your own barrow about not having to buy a staple.

                On your wee point – milk is a staple of our community’s diet, like bread and a couple of other things. Staples, just like electricity, imo sit outside the generally accepted bounds of free market activity. Or should. It aint like choosing to buy a tv burt. Can you see the difference?

                Anymore useless one-liners? Or maybe an answer to my particular point above ?

                • burt

                  You can own a goat and milk that ? Some people even milk sheep… Oh no that’s not an option is it – you want milk to be set a price that ‘sounds OK’ to you because them nasty farmers earn too much and it’s not fair when you can’t get paid the price for your own labour that you think you are worth.

                  • vto

                    You sound like one of those kids with their hands over their ears yelling “not listening, not listening, not listening”.

                    You and Fonterra claim comparable free markets and level paying fields, as justification for the price setting mechanism. But they don’t exist. Your argument is flawed.

                    I’m going. Gonna go buy a cow and stick it in the hallway. Ffs.

                    • burt

                      You have a hallway – nice. Some people live in places too small to have a hallway – should the govt provide them a bigger house as well ?

                    • vto

                      What are you on burt?

                      In case you hadn’t noticed the setting of the milk price is already by way of government intervention, set up at the time of the Fonterra cooperative (i.e. socialist) being formed.

                      Got anymore useless one-liners? Wake up fool.

                    • burt

                      That’s right – the glorious one-size-fits-all model that is the cornerstone of socialism – it fails. Tell me again how the socialist way is the best and try not to shoot yourself in the foot explaining at the same time why milk prices are too high.

                    • vto

                      I would have thought you would consider that Fonterra was not a failure. i.e. the socialist cooperative model.

                      You clearly don’t know much at all about what you ramble on about.

                    • burt

                      vto

                      My opinion of Fonterra is irrelevant to the price of milk.

                    • vto

                      burt, you have been unable to provide a decent answer to anything in this. You merely throw one-liners of no relevance to the particular issue.

                      Regarding your opinion of Fonterra being of no relevance – you asked a question about socialist means which I answered by way of example being Fonterra. And now you claim it is of no relevance? Irt is you burt who are of no relevance. What a waste of space.

                    • burt

                      vto

                      I would have thought you would consider that Fonterra was not a failure.

                      What I consider of them is irrelevant to the price of milk. It really is.

                      However, Fonterra is in no way a failure for the shareholders. It’s a failure for the consumers. It’s a monopoly – of course it’s a failure for consumers.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      It’s a monopoly – of course it’s a failure for consumers.

                      Wrong imo.

                      Capitalist monopolies are failures for the country, not just consumers.

                      And a country which is led in a way to leave things to the market is also going to suffer serious failures. Because the ‘market’ is going to do what is good for it (and specific groups of players within that market), not what is good for the country.

            • burt 13.1.1.1.1.2

              vto

              Fonterra can sell its goods across the world. We cannot sell our labour across the world.

              I’m sorry to hear that it’s impossible for you to work anywhere else but NZ.

              • vto

                Smart-arse dick replies burt. You know the point I am making.

              • burt

                Yes, you can’t charge the price you want for your labour and that’s not fair when Fonterra get to charge the price they do for milk. I do understand that.

  14. Jimmy 14

    They dont charge the highest price in the world for their milk!

    • Jimmy you keep popping up and down like a Don Nicholson.

      Can you explain to me why NZ is the most efficient milk producers in the world yet our milk is cheaper to buy overseas than here? 

      • Jimmy 14.1.1

        Yeah I am having a bit of fun, Glad Don Nicholsons gone though, and thats the myth, milk is not cheaper overseas than here, in some countrys their are reasons milk appears cheaper than here, such as goverment subsidisation and in Australias case, loss leading by supermarkets.

        • vto 14.1.1.1

          jimmy you answered as if the word “can” was “does”. Do try again

          • Jimmy 14.1.1.1.1

            Condesention noted.

            • vto 14.1.1.1.1.1

              Pull it out jimmy. What’s your answer to my question? Third time lucky..

              • Jimmy

                Sorry whats the question? you want me to tell me why you cant charge the highest price for your labour, and fonterra can charge the international price for milk?

                • vto

                  Within NZ, yes.

                  no. 4 coming up

                  • Jimmy

                    Supply and Demand.

                    • vto

                      Wrong. Well, maybe 3 out of 10. You highlight one of the problems in a minor and probably unintended way.

                      The supply and demand arrangements for each are completely and utterly unequal and have no similarities. Yet that is one of the base arguments that Fonterra rests its case on – that it is international market supply and demand which it should be entitled to rely on in setting its domestic price. That is not the measure that should be used – we cannot afford to pay international prices and one of the reasons for that is that we are not allowed to sell our labour at international prices (where as Fonterra can and does). That is the unfairness.

                      among others

                    • clandestino

                      actually having lived in a few countries I can vouch for the fact NZ milk tastes horrible as in reconstituting they water the bejaysus out of it.

                      don’t drink anchor in malaysia, terrible stuff

                    • vto

                      mmm, glass of milk and sleep sounds mighty good right now.

                      ‘Tis the problem though.. international price setting for a base commodity in a domestic setting.

                    • Jimmy you have this really frustrating Winston Peters type ability to answer a slightly different question and then jump up and down like a jumpy up and down thing and preening yourself at the smartness of your answer.

                      OK answer me this.

                      Kiwis pay huge amounts to maintain pristine roads to dairy farms, to repair the damage caused to our environment by these dairy farms and to market our country perhaps misleadingly as clean and green so that our dairy farms can sell their product for a premium.

                      Do you think that locals should be cut a bit of slack?  After all milk 30 years ago was less than 1% of its current price. 

                    • clandestino

                      vto i really don’t think you want to sell your labour at the ‘international price’. the majority of the world’s workers are most definitely not as privileged as us (which is not saying we shouldn’t be fighting for higher wages here, the anti-total free trader i am)

                  • clandestino

                    hmmm, vto…isn’t what he is saying essentially correct though? Other countries receive bulk milk powder and reconstitute it I would hazard a guess watered down like an american beer all while loss leading the shit out of it (they compete against locally subsidised stuff), while we get fresh milk at the full cost (of production and that which can be got on the international market).

                    the question is subsidy, either the government does it or the retailers should be through competition, but as has been said the duopoly don’t work that way, they probably never loss lead milk unless it’s about to curdle.

                    government could subsidise i suppose, but i dont drink much milk so i’m a bit on the fence on that one

        • rosy 14.1.1.2

          Just paid 0.89 euros ($NZ1.50) for a litre of low-fat, added calcium milk in a local Viennese grocery – not known for it’s low prices – I’m not sure anymore how that compares with NZ prices.

          • freedom 14.1.1.2.1

            less expensive over at yours rosy, , locally on the shelves I have seen $1.80- $2.25 lt

            • clandestino 14.1.1.2.1.1

              isn’t ‘low fat’ just a euphemism for ‘more water’?

              plus, you have to remember the effect of the common agricultural policy on dairy prices in Europe, brussels probably went halves with you on the purchase.

              • rosy

                The reason I mentioned the type is because it is more expensive than standard milk. No other reason. I’m also not sure that EU policy has an effect on retail prices. It certainly does on farm prices, but that’s not the same thing. There is some criticism that the subsidies end up mostly in the hands of dairy corporation (the most obvious example is Nestle) not the small farmer or consumer. But I haven’t got a clue if that’s the case.

                Oxfam have a good overview of the problems with dairy subsidies here [pdf] I can’t see much about distorting retail prices within the EU.

                The direct beneficiaries of EU dairy subsidies are processing and trading companies, not farmers. These companies receive more than one billion euros each year from European taxpayers in export subsidies alone. Yet it is impossible to obtain a breakdown of which companies receive what subsidies – highlighting the lack of transparency in how taxpayers’ money is spent through the CAP subsidy system. For example, the UK Rural Payments Agency told Oxfam that it is unable to disclose which companies receive dairy subsidies because this information is ‘commercially sensitive’. The receipients include such companies as Nestlé and Arla Foods, and we urge greater transparency about the level of subsidies paid to these companies.

                Anyway, I was just interested to see if it was cheaper, seeing the discussion on this thread was about whether NZ had relatively cheap milk.

              • rosy

                isn’t ‘low fat’ just a euphemism for ‘more water’?

                low fat is fat removed, not added water

                • Rusty Shackleford

                  But if you have 100ml of regular and 100ml of low fat, what has the fat been replaced with? Air?

                  • McFlock

                    Because fat is the only solid in milk?

                  • rosy

                    It’s just separated, nothing is added (unless you have extra calcium, which gives it a bulkier feel in your mouth)

                    “what has the fat been replaced with? Air?”

                    Is this the sort of logic that comes about from never having seen a bottle of milk with the cream sitting on top instead of being homogenised?

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      It’s the type of logic that comes with being a RWNJ.

                    • McFlock

                      OH! Maybe dehydrated milk is all he’s ever seen, living in the Somali Randian paradise? He just thought the powder was fat, so making it low-fat is just a case of watering it down.
                      He also thinks the Fonterra logo is a big red cross.

                    • Rusty Shackleford

                      “SOMALIA!!!!!!” “AYN RAND!!!!!!”. Why don’t you find something more original to carp on about?

                      Rosy, can you truly explain what is wrong with my logic, other than shouting “RWNJ!!!!!” or some such? If I’m so wrong, it should be easy. If you have a litre of milk, with the cream, if you take the cream away the bottle of milk is smaller in terms of mass. What replaced the fat?

                    • McFlock

                      You see, every time I feel tempted to believe that you genuinely understand or accept the concept of “logic”, I find it useful to remember the previous logical victories you have achieved.
                      I must confess, your line “Infant mortality improved in Somalia under a stateless system.” still makes me chuckle at it’s consummate stupidity.
                      The math on relative concentrations is pretty obvious – if you remove the 4% fat from milk that’s 87% water, then the remaining solution is ~9.5% solution of the protein and carbs that were 9% of the initial volume. Which you would know if you weren’t in character as a moron.

                    • rosy

                      Nothing replaces the fat, it’s simply separated – before it’s packaged, so there is just more low-fat milk and the cream is used elsewhere.

                      So if you start with e.g. 1.1 litres of full-fat milk, you end up with say (I don’t know the volumes) 1 litre of low-fat milk to be homogenised, pasteurised and packaged, and 100 ml of cream to be used elsewhere.

                      Enlarge this diagram to see the relationship between raw milk, low-fat milk and cream.

                      http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/Milkproducts.svg

                    • Rusty Shackleford

                      “Infant mortality improved in Somalia under a stateless system.”
                      If you can find something factually wrong with the statement, be my guest. You could accuse me of confusing correlation with causation, but there is nothing factually wrong with it.

                      Even at 87%, milk is still mostly water. That it outweighs the other components by such an amount, I feel comfortable saying that milk is just water. If I was only 13% wrong in everything I said, I would be happy enough.

                    • Rusty Shackleford

                      Rosy, why didn’t you just point that out in the first place instead of being a fucking prick about it?

                    • rosy

                      I’ve been doing a bit or reading about Somalia as well – it appears that the northern area is run by a government that is trying to get recognised as a separate country – Somaliland – separate from Somalia.
                      http://www.somalilandgov.com/
                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somaliland

                      I’d hazard a guess that all the infant mortality rate improvements are here.

                    • rosy

                      “Rosy, why didn’t you just point that out in the first place instead of being a fucking prick about it?”
                      What!!!!! I did!!. All I’ve done in the 2nd comment is expand on the first. That’ll be the last time I’ll bother.

                    • McFlock

                      Rusty, if you can add anything new to the Somalia thread I linked to, feel free.
                      I really like the way you get incredibly anal over definitions of monopolies vs monopsonies that cannot be 0.00001% less than 100%, yet if it’s 87% water it’s near enough to water.
                      Water is milk is beer is cocacola is a solution of weedkiller. No problems there.
                       
                      And were you really blaming Rosy because you were talking bullshit?

                    • Rusty Shackleford

                      “I’d hazard a guess that all the infant mortality rate improvements are here.”

                      Dunno, could be true. Would be interesting to find out. It’s is interesting to note that the attempt to impose a govt on Somalia has lead to a marked decline in the quality of life of Somalians.

                    • McFlock

                      Well, despite the lack of evidence for your suggestion, it’s still nothing new.

                      [edit] oh, that was rusty commenting to Rosy – missed that clicking directly from the comments box. Must be tired. Off to bed shortly,methinks

                    • Rusty Shackleford

                      As far as farmers are concerned, Fonterra is a monopsony, for the vast majority of them. I’ll bet you believe Standard Oil was a monopoly despite it being less so than the case of Fonterra.

                      I even conceded their were other firms who process milk.

                      As for Rosy, I was trying to draw her out in order to point out that she shouldn’t act like a prick just because that is the prevailing mode of behavior on this blog.

                    • Rusty Shackleford

                      I gave evidence in that thread.

                    • McFlock

                      So the price of milk for NZ consumers is relevant to Fonterra being a monopsony for farmers (as opposed to monopoly for consumers) how?
                        
                       

                    • rosy

                      It’s is interesting to note that the attempt to impose a govt on Somalia has lead to a marked decline in the quality of life of Somalians.
                      Except in the Somaliland bit that imposed it’s own government and democratic structures on itself, didn’t fall into anarchy and strife, and which is why it has unofficially seceded.

                      btw
                      As for Rosy, I was trying to draw her out in order to point out that she shouldn’t act like a prick just because that is the prevailing mode of behavior on this blog.
                      At no time in that little exchange was I trying to act like a prick. Read it again.

    • Lanthanide 14.2

      Since you seem to know, if they don’t, who does?

      Or if you don’t know who charges the “highest”, you must know at least one company/country that charges higher. So who is it?

      • Jimmy 14.2.1

        To much effort right now to find out, however in the western countrys NZ was in the bottom quarter for milk price.

  15. vto 15

    How is it that they can charge the highest price that they can possibly get in the world for their milk but we cannot charge the highest price that we can possibly get in the world for our labour?

    • Don’t know how things are now, but when I was at school this is a question that anyone who’d studied year 10 economics could answer without a second thought.

      • Colonial Viper 15.1.1

        they taught you about crony cartel capitalism at highschool? :shock:

        • McFlock 15.1.1.1

          Decile 10 private school :)

        • Psycho Milt 15.1.1.2

          There’s something hilarious about the outrage with which left-wingers tend to view Fonterra, given that it’s a farmers’ co-op. You love the idea of workers owning the means of production until some of them actually do it, at which point you start calling it “crony cartel capitalism.”

          • Colonial Viper 15.1.1.2.1

            I actually think that Fonterra is an excellent example for the Left to follow.

            To make Fonterra an even wider co-op, I suggest that dairy workers (on farms and in factories) are also allowed to become shareholders.

            Good idea eh?

            I’m glad you seem to realise that corporate money has always acted in socialist and co-operative ways – for their own wealthy communities that is, not for the rest of society.

            • Psycho Milt 15.1.1.2.1.1

              Actually, you’re describing “people” and “people” there, not “corporate money” (farmers? really?) and “wealthy communities.” There’s no reason a co-operative should act other than in the interests of its members.

              • Colonial Viper

                There’s no reason a co-operative should act other than in the interests of its members.

                And that’s exactly how co-operatives like the international banking terrorists think.

                I mean, its not like we all live in the same society is it?

                PS Fonterra is corporate money, it is one of the largest for profit enterprises in the entire country, one which just happens to have farmers has the large shareholders.

                • It’s exactly how people think. If a union didn’t put its members’ interests ahead of non-members there’d be no point whatsoever in creating one. Same goes for pretty much any co-operative venture – in fact it’s pretty much the definition of a co-operative.

                  Still, I’d be interested in how far you think society should go in setting prices – for instance, if some businesses are struggling to make ends meet and finding it difficult to pay their workforces, should the govt step in to stop these workers “overcharging” for their labour and enforce a lower pay rate?

    • clandestino 15.2

      wage arbitrage

  16. Ari 16

    While this is absolute and utter bull excrement, at least it might have the side-effect of making people think about giving up milk.

  17. kriswgtn 17

    Well as the Dairy Workers Union said on news this morning
    yep the price is to too high

    who would you believe
    really no question is there

    Fed farmers???? hhahaha

    All those fuk s cud come out with was

    Consumers can shop around

    NO we subsidize you wankers-
    Time for a days boycott unless you’re feeding babies and kids

    the rest boycott for a day
    lets see if they like the power of the consumer since no one else inc consumer affairs are interested

    • insider 17.1

      The price is too high?

      So how mch should it be and what do you base that on?

      • kriswgtn 17.1.1

        I base it on what the UNION guy said.The Union the farm workers belong too
        The workers who milk the cows not some imported smarmy asshole who came across as a total fuking egg.
        related much ?

  18. belladonna 18

    Dont drink it. Read online about the connection between dairy and cancer, heart disease, arthritis etc. Look at the health statistics for dairy consuming countries and you will see we are at the upper end of most of the negative health outcomes.

    • As mentioned above: lactose tolerance is a prime example of how rapidly a genetic mutation can spread in a population if it bestows a significant evolutionary advantage. In this case, the survival advantage provided was enormous. Vegans may not like it, but facts aren’t really interested in whether you like them or not.

      • Lanthanide 18.1.1

        “In this case, the survival advantage provided was enormous. Vegans may not like it, but facts aren’t really interested in whether you like them or not.”

        We’re talking about modern society with modern diseases here. Lactose tolerance may have let more and more people live past their childhood and teenage years to the point where they could reproduce.

        But that’s got little to do with modern health ailments caused by over-indulgence of diary products.

        • Puddleglum 18.1.1.1

          Yes, selective advantages are entirely relative to the environments of selection.

          The significant point of the evolutionary argument – and why this example is the poster boy for gene-culture co-evolution – is that dairying came first, lactose tolerance came second. That is, in a dairy-herding society it doesn’t pay to be lactose intolerant. Logically, that doesn’t mean that everyone should drink milk (i.e., become a ‘dairy=herding’ society in terms of consumption of foodstuffs).

          Also, it’s not necessarily the case that it was drinking milk that was selected for – the most powerful selective pressures could have come from other factors associated with (dairy) herding (e.g., availability of regular doses of protein via meat from the herded animals).

          • Psycho Milt 18.1.1.1.1

            I suspect that people with no lactose tolerance would have little use for a dairy herd. Animal-herding came first, certainly, but the spread of lactose tolerance is due to the huge survival advantage it conferred on the people with it, because it enabled use of an extremely nutritious food source.

            And yes, it doesn’t logically follow that everyone should drink milk – feel free not to. But it does logically follow that milk is not bad for your health.

            We’re talking about modern society with modern diseases here.

            Or, in other words, we’re talking about cranks, food faddists and hypochondriacs with too little else to worry about here.

            • Draco T Bastard 18.1.1.1.1.1

              But it does logically follow that milk is not bad for your health.

              No it doesn’t. It may help survival in the first few years but that does not mean that it helps with long term good health. Saturated fats, which are in dairy, do line the walls of arteries boosting blood pressure and putting extra stress on the heart eventually causing heart problems.

              • Rusty Shackleford

                “Saturated fats, which are in dairy, do line the walls of arteries boosting blood pressure and putting extra stress on the heart eventually causing heart problems.”

                Utter tripe.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  Rusty proving his ignorance again.

                  • Rusty Shackleford

                    If you listen to the corn lobby you will be ignorant, yes.

                    • McFlock

                      Coming from “non-fat milk is just water” Shackleford, I’m not sure the allegation of ignorance is particularly persuasive.

                    • Rusty Shackleford

                      I never said that, but milk is something like 90% water. So, yes. Milk is just water.

                    • McFlock

                      I was paraphrasing your idiocy here.
                       
                      FFS, at least stop contradicting yourself. If “milk is something like 90% water. So, yes. Milk is just water”  (actually milk is 87% water, 4% fat, and the remainder protein and carbohydrates), then Fonterra, by being processor of 95% of NZ milk, has a monopoly on milk processing in NZ, and your pedantry earlier was just duplicitous bullshit.
                       

                    • Rusty Shackleford

                      Go back to North Korea you left wing fuck face (LWFF for short)!!!!!! Did I win? Seems to be your tactic at least.

                      Fonterra processes most of the milk in NZ. They also buy most of the milk from producers in NZ. That makes them a monopsony. There is no monopoly on the distribution side because there is more than one place who will sell you milk. And they even sell it at different prices. You could even buy raw milk from the farmer for cheaper if you wanted to, but it is probably illegal (it sure as hell is in the states).

                      If the distributors didn’t like the price they were getting from Fonterra, they would buy it from the farmer and process it themselves. Or some other firm would. If milk was $1.50 above the market rate, as CV seems to think it is, someone would come in and make a killing. But they don’t so the price of milk in NZ obviously isn’t that far above the market clearing price.

                    • McFlock

                      I can by milk from many stores. THEY get the milk from Fonterra. Fonterra therefore has a domestic monopoly, because there are many buyers of its milk. And it has in excess of 90% of the market, 90% being your magical point where nothing else exists and milk is, in fact, just water (you were a bit like a reverse Jesus, there).
                       
                      As for the problems of new market entrants competing with a monopoly, lprent already went into that. So you obviously have the memory of a goldfish, in addition to being a sociopath with subnormal abstract concept processing skills.

                    • Rusty Shackleford

                      Which brand of milk does Fonterra sell?

                      lprent gave one example of a quasi-cartel/monopoly. It could be half true in that Fonterra is probably enshrined in some form of legislation (I haven’t a clue in what way), but it has nothing to do with the price of milk if it was left to the market.

                    • McFlock

                      Which brands does Fonterra sell? Here. Pretty basic to find out.
                       

                      Anchor (milk)
                      Anchor Calciyum
                      Anlene
                      Tip Top, Kapiti and Mammoth Suuply Co. (icecream)
                      Country Goodness
                      Yoghurt-2-Go, De Winkel, Fresh and Fruity, Anchor Symbio (formerly Metchnikoff), Slimmers Choice and Mammoth Supply Co. (yoghurt)
                      Primo (flavoured milk)
                      eon, Zing, Whole (pure/flavoured water)
                      Mainland, Kapiti, Ferndale and Galaxyg, Perfect Italiano (cheese)
                      Fernleaf

                       

                    • Rusty Shackleford

                      I thought we were talking about milk. Are ice creams and Primos really necessities?

                      wtf? you even included flavored water?

                    • McFlock

                      I just threw in all the brands. I assumed it’s all ~90% water, so it’s all the same…

                    • Rusty Shackleford

                      There’s not much water in butter.

                    • McFlock

                      So to recap, we’ve established that fonterra process 94% of NZ milk, and do sell it on, so could well come close to a real-world definition of “monopoly”, and you’re worried about the water content of butter.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      I never said that, but milk is something like 90% water. So, yes. Milk is just water.

                      Hey dude I’ve just mixed you a 90% water 10% paraquat soda. Skull it down for me mate, its really ‘just water’ :D

                      There’s not much water in butter.

                      Don’t do much cooking do you?

                      http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=OW19090630.2.73

                      Looks to me like NZ butter has carried a water content of 12%-16% since the start.

                      But “that’s not much” right? A 12%-16% paraquat mix would also not be much. You think?

              • A lot of foods have saturated fats in them, and not just the animal-based ones. Humans are full of them, too. In fact, you try living without them. The fact that nutritionists have certain dogmas about fats isn’t really relevant to whether milk is worth the money you pay for it or not.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  Dairy in excess is bad for you but that doesn’t seem to have an effect on price – probably because the farmers keep telling people that it’s good for them.

            • Puddleglum 18.1.1.1.1.2

              Hi Psycho Milt,

              I suspect that people with no lactose tolerance would have little use for a dairy herd.Animal-herding came first, certainly, but the spread of lactose tolerance is due to the huge survival advantage it conferred on the people with it, because it enabled use of an extremely nutritious food source.
              I think that statement is misleading because it implies that any human would gain an adaptive advantage by taking up milk drinking.

               From the link I mentioned above:

              A strong correlation exists across cultures between the frequency of lactose tolerance and a history of dairy farming and milk drinking12,89,90. This observation led to the ‘culture historical hypothesis’: dairying created the selection pressures that drove alleles for lactose tolerance to high frequency12,91.” 

              Notice that the spread of the lactose tolerant allele was not because of the “extremely nutritious” nature of milk. It was because of the dairy farming/herding life.

              Similarly: 

              various studies now support the culture historical hypothesis, as opposed to the counter-hypothesis that the presence of the lactose-tolerance allele allowed dairying to spread, or that the allele spread for some reason unconnected to dairying.” 

              Notice that if drinking milk products, in and of itself, was an adaptive advantage, then the ‘counter-hypothesis’ would be true. But the evidence supports the cutlural-historical hypothesis. That’s an important piece of evidence against your conclusion that it was the nutritious value of milk that provided the adaptive advantage.

              As I think you agree, it was possessing a dairy herd that then drove the selection of the allele for lactose tolerance. But, notice that being lactose tolerant was only an advantage within a herding culture.

              Or, put another way, being lactose intolerant was a distinct disadvantage in a herding society because of an increased reliance on drinking milk as a food source. You’d miss out on food because milk was an increasingly important part of it. (In the same link, it’s pointed out that societies that used fermented milk products – cheese, yoghurt – have a middling level of lactose tolerance/intolerance because of their partial dependence on milk as a food source.)

              There was – and is – no selective advantage for it outside of a dairy herding life (or dairy dependent food economy), assuming that nutrition can be gained in other ways, as it has been by the majority of human societies.

              On top of that, many people (especially in the countries that we export milk products too) are, to varying degrees, lactose intolerant at present. We’re not necessarily doing them a dietary favour by selling them milk products.

              • But, notice that being lactose tolerant was only an advantage within a herding culture.

                Not quite. The mutation for retaining lactase into adulthood was a huge advantage if milk was available as a food, ie to anyone in contact with dairying people. The survival advantage is so pronounced that there are multiple separately-evolved alleles for it, those alleles spread amazingly quickly within only the last 10,000 years or so, and scientists are pretty sure they’re still spreading in cultures where getting enough to eat isn’t generally a problem (which means the survival advantage will be a lot lower than it was a few thousand years back). Anyone wanting to claim milk is a threat to health has a bunch of serious problems with their hypothesis that need solving.

                • Thanks Psycho Milt – that’s interesting. Any links (and that’s not an aggressive challenge, I’m interested).

                  • Rusty Shackleford

                    Do you think the same is true for wheat (and other grains) Phsycho Milt? I’m fairly convinced much of the western worlds health problems can be traced to an over reliance on wheat. Especially considering the wheat we consume today is vastly different from that consumed 10,000 years ago.

                    Can the same not be said for milk? The milk we drink today comes from only a few species of animal and is exclusively of an homogenised variety. Could this be a factor in its healthfulness?

                  • This NYT article mentions the work done that established separate, multiple evolution of lactase persistance and how rapidly it spread: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/11/science/11evolve.html

  19. aerobubble 19

    Oh come on, the only reason Auckland is having a party for the great unwashed to
    come to (and who shouldn’t of turned up as they weren’t expected to), is we
    have to, every major sportings event has parties, but Auckland has never been
    a party town (except for drunks). People have never been able to easierly
    around the place, its elite is too busy stuffing money in their own pockets
    while moaning they have got enough already. It’ll will be great when it all
    goes back to normal and boring average kiwi returns to gaze at the great
    scenary (and get used to it as that’s all he is getting unless he’s loaded).
    Here’s an example Genesis gives brownie point on their customers usage
    pattern yet they start removing them as expired after a while, so some
    cannot ever get a free gift. The system is geared to reward those who
    already have money (crony capitalism) and not geared to helping people
    make money who don’t already have it (as happens in a free market).
    Inomce inequality is just one measure that shows capitalism is being
    inefficiently run by governments to support a few already wealthy
    say wealthy.

  20. Colonial Viper 20

    Fonterra should use its overseas profits to subsidise NZ retail milk to $1.25/L and a 1kg block of cheese to $5.

    • Rusty Shackleford 20.1

      Why? Because you say so? That doesn’t make sense. Why not 2c/L for milk and you have to pay them to buy their cheese. Do they even make cheese?

      • Colonial Viper 20.1.1

        Why? Because you say so?

        No, not just because I say so, but because fuckloads of NZ’ers know that it should be done.

        I picked those prices because they are affordable prices for ordinary Kiwi families.

        NZer’s know full well that they are being ass-whipped at $10/kg cheese while consumers in other developed markets across the world get NZ dairy products at lower prices than we can.

        And the shit is made less than 50 km from where I live, to add insult to injury.

        • burt 20.1.1.1

          If you don’t like the price don’t buy the product – is that too simple for you? Do you need Nanny to make sure them nasty milk traders don’t make too much profit CV ?

        • burt 20.1.1.2

          Actually CV

          If you feel so strongly about what the price should be why not buy a bit of land, buy a few cows and start selling milk at the price you think it should be sold at. Do something other than just asking Nanny to fix it for you.

          • Colonial Viper 20.1.1.2.1

            Thanks for the tip. I agree, we should institute land reforms and land taxes similar to those in the 1890’s to make getting on to farms far more affordable.

            People need to be able to farm for productivity, not for capital gains. Which means the prices of most farms need to come down by a further 20% to 30% for the ROI to start to make sense to a new small farmer looking to buy their first entry level dairy farm.

            By the way I am not talking about individual action burt, I am talking about reorienting the NZ economy.

            • burt 20.1.1.2.1.1

              So you don’t think we need individual action – rather reform. That would be a typical socialist approach – spend other peoples money to solve your issues.

          • vto 20.1.1.2.2

            such a simpleton

  21. burt 21

    World economic systems explained with cows

    FEUDALISM
    You have two cows. Your lord takes some of the milk.

    PURE SOCIALISM
    You have two cows. The government takes them and puts them in a barn with everyone else’s cows. You have to take care of all the cows. The government gives you as much milk as you need.

    BUREAUCRATIC SOCIALISM
    You have two cows. The government takes them and puts them in a barn with everyone else’s cows. They are cared for by ex-chicken farmers. You have to take care of the chickens the government took from the chicken farmers. The government gives you as much milk and eggs as the regulations say you should need.

    FASCISM
    You have two cows. The government takes them both, hires you to take care of them and sells you the milk.

    PURE COMMUNISM
    You have two cows. Your neighbors help you take care of them, and you all share the milk.

    RUSSIAN COMMUNISM
    You have two cows. You have to take care of them, but the government takes all the milk.

    CAMBODIAN COMMUNISM
    You have two cows. The government takes both and shoots you.

    DICTATORSHIP
    You have two cows. The government takes both and drafts you.

    PURE DEMOCRACY
    You have two cows. Your neighbors decide who gets the milk.

    REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY
    You have two cows. Yours neighbors pick somone to tell you who gets the milk.

    BUREAUCRACY
    You have two cows. At first the government regulates what you can feed them and when you can milk them. Then it pays you not to milk them. Then it takes both, shoots one, milks the other one and pours the milk down the drain. Then it requires you to fill out forms accounting for the missing cows. In triplicate.

    ANARCHY
    You have two cows. Either you sell the milk at a fair price or your neighbors take the cows and kill you.

    CAPITALISM
    You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull.

    SURREALISM
    You have two giraffes. The government requires you to take harmonica lessons.

  22. Kevin 22

    Fed Farmers Dairy Chair Willy Leferink was unequivocal and unapologetic in his advice to consumers which is to shop around.
    Mr Leferink said that in his home town he could get 4l for $5.00 and and 2l for $2.69.
    The message there is really that buying milk from a supermarket is not cheap, so don’t. Instead buy your milk from a service station or the local dairy where it is probably cheaper.
    In terms of competition, perhaps we should be looking at importing from Australia. The Aussies would jump at the chance.

    • Jimmy 22.1

      Would they? maybe, as far as competition goes why havnt they (the Australians that is), is there some reason why it is only Fonterra that is willing to supply the domestic market.
      Fonterras competitors do a good job of complaining about Fonterra and the high price/profit in the NZ domestic market but then refuse to supply the domestic market.
      Instead prefering to export their own DIRA purchased milk for the overseas, presumably more lucrative market.
      Perhaps the reason their is little domestic competition is because the market realizes there is more to be made internationally.

  23. Jimmy 23

    Your right CV, its pretty sickening watching a NZ owened business do well Internationally, it must be stopped.

    • Colonial Viper 23.1

      If the business is ripping of NZers yes it must be stopped.

      And the simplest way is to make them use a share of their large overseas profits to help provide NZ children with affordable milk and cheese.

  24. Jimmy 24

    Ok I also think milk and cheese should be affordable for everyone, but the notion that current prices are as you say a “Ripoff” dosent seem to ring true if no one want to compete with Fonterra in the NZ market and prefers to sell Internationally for the higher profit.

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  • New and Improved Ice Loss Estimates for Polar Ice Sheets
    In a previous post, several years ago, I discussed the various ways that we measure changes in the Antarctic and Greenland ice sheets. Today, scientists still use these main methods for identifying ice changes but recent technological and data processing...
    Skeptical Science | 01-10
  • Crime Reporting Hides Reality
    The National Government has been clever at fudging data and hiding unwanted statistics. It has refused to measure the extent of child poverty, stopped independent environmental reporting and while there has been some worrying crime statistics, we only hear of...
    Local Bodies | 01-10
  • What Labour needs to hear: the 4th voice
    As he pops back and forth between New Zealand and the Pacific Islands, Shane Jones must look on himself as the luckiest of the three men who took part in the Labour leadership race just a scant 12 months ago.read...
    Pundit | 01-10
  • Extremes report 2013: NZ drought and record Aussie heat made worse by warmi...
    The latest climate extremes report finds that 9 out of 16 extreme weather events from last year were influenced by climate change. In particular, the conditions that led to New Zealand’s severe North Island drought — the worst for 41...
    Hot Topic | 01-10
  • On holiday
    Quick PSA: I won on holiday this week, which is why I'm not blogging much at all. Next week I will post once and only once on the Labour leadership contest....
    Polity | 01-10
  • World News Brief, Wednesday October 1
    Top of the AgendaAfghanistan and United States Sign Security Deal...
    Pundit | 01-10
  • Dancing Traffic Lights
    As a pedestrian it can be easy to become a bit impatient, especially when traffic lights are prioritised solely around the movement of vehicles which can leave a long wait between phases. Here’s one idea to keep people occupied while...
    Transport Blog | 01-10
  • Secure work, health and safety and pay rises
    This week the New Zealand Council of Trade Unions (the NZCTU) released their latest economic bulletin today with economist Bill Rosenberg answering the question about whether workers who have a collective employment agreement get bigger pay rises than those on...
    frogblog | 01-10
  • Shock! Horror! Wife defends husband!!!!
        In recent posts I’ve made some fairly trenchant comments about David Cunliffe, primarily about his media performance. Others, including some of his Caucus colleagues, have gone even further. The now resigned Leader of the Opposition has been under...
    Brian Edwards | 01-10
  • September ’14 – NZ blogs sitemeter ranking
    PLEASE NOTE: Sitemeter is playing up again making it impossible to automatically get the stats for some blogs – those I list below. Maybe more bloggers will shift to StatCounter or other counter. No stats could be found for these blogs: Works...
    Open Parachute | 01-10
  • September ’14 – NZ blogs sitemeter ranking
    PLEASE NOTE: Sitemeter is playing up again making it impossible to automatically get the stats for some blogs – those I list below. Maybe more bloggers will shift to StatCounter or other counter. No stats could be found for these blogs: Works...
    Open Parachute | 01-10
  • Auckland: the world’s friendliest city
    UK travel magazine Conde Nast Traveler has just named Auckland the world’s friendliest city in its 2014 rankings. It introduces Auckland with a great photo that highlights the city’s growing urbanity: FRIENDLIEST: 1. Auckland, New Zealand Score: 86.0 (tie) We...
    Transport Blog | 01-10
  • Waterview Breakthrough
    On Monday Alice the Tunnel Boring Machine broke through at Waterview after tunnelling for the last 10 months. And here’s a video of it happening. One of the things that is really impressive is just how accurate the machine is...
    Transport Blog | 30-09
  • Fundamental incomprehension II
    Another day, and another journalist who just doesn't get it about the Greens. This time its Duncan Garner:The Green Party needs a serious rethink. For as long as they have been in Parliament, they have been a left wing party...
    No Right Turn | 30-09
  • An Open Letter to Green Party Supporters: Why I slagged off your Party
    Last week I called for a Bluegreen Party – an environmental party that I could in all conscience, vote for. It prompted a huge response, which confirmed to me there is a clear constituency that is not being serviced. I...
    Gareth’s World | 30-09
  • Parliament should decide
    Yesterday John Key began laying the groundwork to deploy kiwi troops to Iraq to fight in another pointless American war. And with the Labour Party distracted by its autocannibalism, its left to Winston Peters to stand up for democratic values...
    No Right Turn | 30-09
  • The problem with warmongers
    The problem with warmongers is they appear to have no empathy for their fellow human beings. That's because war, and the industrial complex behind it, is invariably built upon people's prejudices.History is littered with examples of prejudice being used as...
    The Jackal | 30-09
  • Australia to criminalise journalism
    Imagine this scenario: Australian spies seeking to fight domestic terrorism borrow the tactics of their American counterparts and start running agent provocateurs to "flush out" those with terrorist leanings. But an operation goes horribly wrong, and actually results in a...
    No Right Turn | 30-09
  • School funding failing vulnerable students – time for a better way?
    1 October 2014 Schools with the greatest needs get too little to meet those needs, says PPTA president Angela Roberts. The current school funding system is failing to support our most vulnerable students and this morning delegates at PPTA’s annual...
    PPTA | 30-09
  • Waiho Papa Moana Hikoi
    More than 1,000 people marched up Queen Streen in Auckland yesterday, as part of the Waiho Papa Moana Hikoi, to protest outside Sky City at the New Zealand Petroleum Summit against plans to begin deep sea oil drilling in the...
    Greenpeace NZ blog | 30-09
  • Why the Prime Minister and RB Governor are whistling in the wind
    Let there be no mistake, New Zealanders want the NZ dollar to be as high as possible. A 65 US cent dollar makes us a hell of a lot poorer than an 88 cent one. So why does the Reserve...
    Gareth’s World | 30-09
  • A targeted transport rate?
    An article in last Friday’s NZ Herald provided an interesting insight into where the investigations into additional transport funding options are at. This is the second phase of the project to close the supposed $12 billion funding gap over the next 30...
    Transport Blog | 30-09
  • Is New Zealand ready for an openly inane Prime Minister?
    In the current leadership race for the Labour Party there are two candidates: Grant Robertson and David Cunliffe. There has been much discussion of their strengths and weaknesses, but one subject has been delicately avoided; perhaps because of political correctness,...
    DimPost | 30-09
  • Is New Zealand ready for an openly inane Prime Minister?
    In the current leadership race for the Labour Party there are two candidates: Grant Robertson and David Cunliffe. There has been much discussion of their strengths and weaknesses, but one subject has been delicately avoided; perhaps because of political correctness,...
    DimPost | 30-09
  • Carpetbaggers
    So, those wishing to participate in the Labour leadership election (2014 edition) have until 11.59pm on Wednesday the 1st of October to join.I won't be joining, but I've noticed an alarming number of people on The Standard announcing that they...
    Left hand palm | 30-09
  • Gordon Campbell on the last rites for the TPP
    Column – Gordon Campbell The Trans Pacific Partnership trade deal is one of those litmus issues that has always had more to do with one’s place on the political spectrum than with any imminent reality. To date, the Greens have...
    Gordon Campbell | 30-09
  • Gordon Campbell on the last rites for the TPP
    Column – Gordon Campbell The Trans Pacific Partnership trade deal is one of those litmus issues that has always had more to do with ones place on the political spectrum than with any imminent reality. To date, the Greens have...
    Its our future | 30-09
  • ATTN MSM: this is not a political news story. I repeat, this is not a polit...
    New Zealand your media treats you as if you are stupid and vacuous, and articles like this are the only things your feeble minds can handle at any given time, unless Paddy has turned up with his friends Shouty Paddy...
    Politically Corrected | 30-09
  • How did the UK grid respond to losing a few nuclear reactors?
    This is a re-post from PassiiviIdentiteetti, written by Jani-Petri Martikainen. Answer: mainly by increasing the use of coal in power production. In the second week of August power company EDF decided to shutdown their reactors in Heysham and Hartlepool. This...
    Skeptical Science | 30-09
  • The very public evisceration of David Cunliffe
    Ordinarily, when the coup of a party leader is underway, one of two things happens. Either the incumbent simply walks, having seen the writing on the wall, or attempts to stare down their opposition in a closed room. Someone walks out of...
    Occasionally erudite | 30-09
  • Dr Sean Simpson from Lanzatech
    On 8th October, Dr Sean Simpson from Lanzatech will be speaking at the University of Auckland, on the subject of “Climate-friendly fuel: A challenge of scale and time”.  This is part of the Energy Centre’s Energy Matters lecture series. Sean...
    Transport Blog | 30-09
  • Stuart’s 100 #36 On the Beat
    36: On the Beat What if we had more cops on the beat? Isn’t it time the New Zealand Police started to recognise the changes happening in urban New Zealand? In our central cities and busiest town centres and main...
    Transport Blog | 30-09
  • Bonus growth for SaaS exporters
    The currency fall has a wonderful effect for exporters, especially those who have most of their costs back here in New Zealand. As I write this, the NZD versus the USD has fallen about 10% since earlier this year. As an...
    Lance Wiggs | 30-09
  • Against returning to Iraq
    Last week the US announced a new bombing campaign against ISIS in Iraq and Syria. Its hard to see how bombing will do any good (except for US defence contractors), and easy to see how it will cause blowback. To...
    No Right Turn | 30-09
  • Speaker: An Open Letter To David Cunliffe
    Dear David,I want to first congratulate you on the campaign you ran. You gave it your all, and did well in the debates. I was deeply disappointed in the result that Labour got on September 20th - but I’m sure...
    Public Address | 30-09
  • Long run or short season for David Cunliffe?
    When you’ve read this short post have a look at the interview below with David Cunliffe on last night’s Campbell Live .  But first,  if you haven’t done so already, please  read my previous post on the ex Labour leader, titled...
    Brian Edwards | 30-09
  • Seaworthy ships and stormy seas – PPTA annual conference 2014
    30 September 2014 Pirates, privateers, seaworthy ships and stormy seas all featured in PPTA president Angela Roberts' nautically themed opening speech to the association's annual conference this morning. Describing the political context PPTA ventures out into as "often stormy and...
    PPTA | 30-09
  • Key admits exiling people without trial
    Back in February, we learned that John Key had responded to the "threat" of people travelling to Syria to participate in its civil war by cancelling their passports. This was done without any sort of due process or review, let...
    No Right Turn | 30-09
  • Reflections on Melbourne and Sydney
    2014 was an auspicious year. Whether by cosmic alignment or fickle chance, Easter Monday and Anzac Day fell in the same week, and I was able to shoot off to Melbourne and Sydney for ten days with only three days...
    Transport Blog | 29-09
  • The “Pacific solution” devolves into rape and child abuse
    Australia's "Pacific solution" of imprisoning refugees in remote gulags in an effort to pschologically torture them into going home has turned into a catalogue of horrors: neglect, beatings and rapes, torture, and murder. And now they've got a new one:...
    No Right Turn | 29-09
  • The leadership characteristic that shall not be named
    David Cunliffe formally resigns today, setting up a head-to-head battle between him and Grant Robertson, although there’s still a chance that David Shearer, Andrew Little and/or Stuart Nash might throw their hat(s) into the ring. As the Labour MPs arrived for...
    Occasionally erudite | 29-09
  • The leadership characteristic that shall not be named
    ...
    Occasionally erudite | 29-09
  • Th Austerity Disaster and its impact – Lessons for New Zealand? (Fro...
    Europe’s Austerity Disaster29/09/2014 by Joseph StiglitzJoseph Stiglitz“If the facts don’t fit the theory, change the theory,” goes the old adage. But too often it is easier to keep the theory and change the facts – or so German Chancellor Angela...
    the Irascible Curmudgeon | 29-09
  • The Damage Fallacies of Neo-Liberal economics cause
    The on-going and recent scandals (Judith Collins & Oravida, Maurice Williamson & Donghua Lui, John Key & Dirty Politics....)  in New Zealand that have swirled around the neo-liberal National Party government of Key, supported by the discredited political parties of...
    the Irascible Curmudgeon | 29-09
  • Changing Leaders Will Not Be Enough
    Trial By Ordeal: The techniques of the Seventeenth Century Witchfinders-General might be preferable to the process Labour has adopted to uncover the reasons for its woeful performance in the 2014 General Election. It's a pity the Party has not allowed...
    Bowalley Road | 29-09
  • Starting a constructive conversation on the future of the Treaty of Waitang...
    To learn more about our upcoming Treaty project click here...
    Gareth’s World | 29-09
  • Gillard on NZ Labour
    I arrived in Australia a month after Tony Abbott had been elected Prime Minister, a week after Bill Shorten had been elected Labor Leader and a month before Kevin Rudd announced his resignation from Parliament. It quickly amazed me how...
    Progress report | 29-09
  • March to #StopDeepSeaOil and #StopStatoil
    There have been amazing and moving scenes in Northland as the Waiho Papa Moana Hikoi made its way down from Cape Reinga to stand up for their coast, their way of life and for future generations. And they are not...
    Greenpeace NZ blog | 29-09
  • Auckland Transport Early October Board Meeting
    The Auckland Transport board meeting is on Thursday and below are sections from the various reports that caught my attention. The first thing I noticed was the huge number of items on the closed agenda with 18 specific items for decision/approval or...
    Transport Blog | 29-09
  • Labour not “part of the communities we live in”
    Labour leadership aspirant Grant Robertson told a blunt truism to Kathryn Ryan on Radio New Zealand the Monday after the election. “Politics has to be about more than elections,” he said. “It has to about being part of the communities...
    Colin James | 29-09
  • Hold fast to your Mana – Harawira
    Hone Harawira today called on the voters of Tai Tokerau to hold fast to their mana, and not be dictated to by those party leaders who have ganged together to tell them how to vote. “I call on our people...
    Mana | 18-09
  • Media Advisory – Interview availability
    This is to advise all media that Hone Harawira will be available in Auckland tomorrow, Friday the 19th of September from 7am to 4pm for interviews relating to his recent press releases. If you are interested in interviewing Mr Harawira on...
    Mana | 18-09
  • Labour stands on proud record on Suffrage Day
    Women have come a long way in the 121 years since New Zealand became the first country to give them the vote on September 19 1893, but there is still more to do, Labour’s Women’s Affairs spokesperson Carol Beaumont says....
    Labour | 18-09
  • Polling Booths asked to treat Maori voters with respect
    “Polling booths without Maori roll voting papers, Maori people not being offered assistance to vote, people getting sent from Whangarei to Wellsford to vote, Maori people getting turned away from voting because they didn’t have their ‘easy vote’ card, Maori...
    Mana | 17-09
  • Aussie Liberals embroiled in Key campaign
    John Key needs to explain why Australia’s Liberal Party is interfering in New Zealand domestic politics and is encouraging Kiwi voters across the ditch to vote for National just days out from the election, Labour’s campaign spokesperson Annette King says....
    Labour | 17-09
  • The MANA Plan for Beneficiaries and Income in Waiariki
    Median Personal Income for Waiariki is $21,700. Over 13,000 Maori who live in Waiariki rely upon a form of government benefit including the Unemployment Benefit, Sickness Benefit, Domestic Purpose Benefit and the Invalids Benefit. “If you’re lucky enough to have...
    Mana | 16-09
  • Māori development crucial to New Zealand’s future
    Labour recognises the concern of Māori about child poverty and the rising costs of living, and in Government will make a real difference to the wellbeing of whānau and iwi, Labour’s Māori Affairs spokesperson Nanaia Mahuta says. “As our Māori...
    Labour | 16-09
  • MAORI PARTY – DON’T COMPLAIN … WALK
    “If the Maori Party are serious about stopping government spying on NZ citizens then they should tell the Prime Minister to either stop doing it or they will walk away” said MANA leader and Tai Tokerau MP Hone Harawira, on...
    Mana | 16-09
  • JOHN KEY SUPPORTING LABOUR
    “There is something really sick about a National Party Prime Minister coming out in support of a Labour candidate” said MANA leader and Tai Tokerau MP, Hone Harawira, after hearing that John Key is urging voters to back Labour in...
    Mana | 16-09
  • SHUT DOWN THIS GOVT NOT KAITI WINZ – Nikora
    “I’m going to make it as hard for you to get help as I can” is Paula Bennett’s message to the people of Kaiti  said MANA candidate Te Hāmua Nikora today in response to the news that National will close...
    Mana | 16-09
  • Winegums make for better polling – Harawira
    I wanted to laugh when I saw the Native Affairs poll the other night (Hone Harawira 38%, Kelvin Davis 37%) because it was almost the same as the one they did back in 2011”, said MANA leader and Tai Tokerau...
    Mana | 16-09
  • The Leadership of MTS Lied – Harawira
    “Normally I’m happy to tell people that I was right but when I received the news about the staff cuts at Maori Television, I had nothing but sympathy for the three Maori media leaders who are going to be made...
    Mana | 16-09
  • Privileges Complaint Laid against Prime Minister – Harawira
    MANA Movement Leader and Te Tai Tokerau MP Hone Harawira has today lodged a Privileges Complaint with the Speaker regarding the Prime Ministers denials in parliament that he knew anything about Kim Dotcom before 2012. “Information made public today appears...
    Mana | 15-09
  • Sharples’ new appointments are out of order
    The new appointments to the Waitangi Tribunal announced by Dr Pita Sharples this morning are completely out of order given the election is just five days away, says Labour's State Services spokesperson, Maryan Street. “This Government continues to show disdain...
    Labour | 15-09
  • MANA Movement Housing Policy
    “When families are living in cars, garages, cockroach-infested caravans and three families to a house then we have a housing crisis”, said MANA leader and MP for Te Tai Tokerau, Hone Harawira. “When you have a housing crisis for low-income...
    Mana | 15-09
  • Bigger than the Foreshore and Seabed – Sykes
    “Over the past week I have received some disturbing information that has led myself and a number of Maori lawyers to conclude that this National - Maori Party - ACT and United Future Government are going to put an end to both...
    Mana | 14-09
  • MANA wants Te Reo Māori petition fulfilled
    Hone Harawira, MANA Leader and MP for Te Tai Tokerau Annette Sykes, MANA candidate for Waiariki Te Hāmua Nikora, MANA candidate for Ikaroa Rāwhiti  “More than four decades have passed and the petition calling for Te Reo Māori in schools...
    Mana | 14-09
  • Primary focus on the critical issues
    A Labour Government will prioritise New Zealand’s agricultural sectors by recreating a Rural Affairs Minister and appointing a Primary Industry Council and a Chief Agricultural Adviser. Releasing Labour’s Primary Sector and Rural Affairs policies today, spokesperson Damien O’Connor says the...
    Labour | 12-09
  • Maori Television fears confirmed – Harawira
    ...
    Mana | 12-09
  • More ghost houses from National
    The Government’s desperate pre-election announcement of more ghost houses won’t fool Aucklanders wanting action on the housing crisis, says Labour’s Housing spokesperson Phil Twyford. “These are ghost houses, to go with National’s ghost tax cut. Families cannot live in ghost...
    Labour | 12-09
  • National bows to union pressure over travel time
    National has reluctantly bowed to pressure from unions and adopted Labour’s fair and sensible policy to pay home support workers for the time they spend traveling between clients, Labour’s Associate Health spokesperson Iain Lees-Galloway says. “This decision is long overdue...
    Labour | 12-09
  • Party members and affiliates – the real losers in Labour’s leadership f...
    Hey, wanna do a back room deal that cuts the members and affiliates out? Cunliffe must be reeling. He has lost failed Ilam candidate James Dann. It must cut as deep as the loss of Steve Gibson. Apart from providing Claire...
    The Daily Blog | 30-09
  • Jeremy Wells’ Mike Hosking rant on Radio Hauraki: Today, the election res...
    Jeremy Wells’ Mike Hosking rant on Radio Hauraki: Today, the election result...
    The Daily Blog | 30-09
  • The rich get richer
    Nobel prize winner Paul Krugman highlights the growing inequality in this article in the New York Times. The left wing slogan that the “the rich get richer” is a fact of almost perverse power. The most recent period of expansion in the...
    The Daily Blog | 30-09
  • A brief word on reinvading Iraq
    So after telling the country before the election that NZ would not send forces to Iraq, lo and behold now he’s won the election with a full spectrum dominance political majority, Key is suddenly now looking to join the re-invasion of...
    The Daily Blog | 29-09
  • A brief word on the importance of ACT, Maori Party and United Future to Nat...
    I’m a far right wing clown who attacks tax money going on anything collective, gimmie some cash and privilege.  One of the great successes of National has been to implement hard right policy but have it sold as moderate. For some NZers,...
    The Daily Blog | 29-09
  • Labour’s Angst
    Was Labour’s predictably low vote David Cunliffe’s fault? Was it policy? Was it something else that has aroused perceptions of electoral carnage? My analysis of the numbers suggests that, as uncertain voters made up their minds, there was a late...
    The Daily Blog | 29-09
  • Information wars: Gaza as “the last taboo”, the threat of mass surveill...
    “When the truth is replaced with silence” wrote the soviet dissident Yevgeni Yevtushenko, “the silence is a lie.” There has been a silence these past months full of noise, static and sound bites of those in power justifying their violence,...
    The Daily Blog | 29-09
  • When the media say they covered Dirty Politics – did they?
    I was watching The Nation in the weekend, and watched the defenders of NZ media up against Minto telling him he was wrong in his claims of media bias and that the media covered Dirty Politics. I laughed. When the...
    The Daily Blog | 29-09
  • GUEST BLOG – P Campbell – To the Left with love
    A week after the general election results I feel wrung out emotionally, having been through the disappointment, depression and anger of seeing  another right wing government elected overwhelmingly by winning support from the parts of NZ that will never benefit...
    The Daily Blog | 29-09
  • GUEST BLOG: Kate Davis – I will be the new Labour Leader!
    One week after the election, while I was still waiting to be consulted about contributing to the review on what went wrong, what do you know? There is a leadership challenge. So instead of opting for a united, thoughtful and...
    The Daily Blog | 29-09
  • GUEST BLOG: Pat O’Dea – A Prescient Post
    A very prescient pre-election post by Martyn Bradbury tells us why the Labour Party are at war now. “The NZ First-Labour Party attack strategy against Internet MANA better work” Despite Martyn Bradbury warning them this Right Wing strategy “Better Work”...
    The Daily Blog | 29-09
  • GUEST BLOG: Curwen Rolinson – W(h)ither Labour (!/?)
    There’s an old saying that success has many fathers, but failure is an orphan. Not so in the Labour Party, wherein soul-crushing defeat on a scale unseen since 1925 definitely has many fathers (and more than a few mothers and...
    The Daily Blog | 29-09
  • At the end of the day…
    At the end of the day…...
    The Daily Blog | 29-09
  • Cynicism towards Key’s sudden desire to help children in poverty
    Cynicism towards Key’s sudden desire to help children in poverty...
    The Daily Blog | 28-09
  • Internet MANA the election and the media
    I’ve been very critical of media reporting of Internet MANA during the election campaign and not surprised at the predictable response from representatives of the corporate media establishment. I wasn’t going to carry this further but was asked at the...
    The Daily Blog | 28-09
  • GUEST BLOG: Rachel Jones – A superficial discourse analysis of a superfic...
    On Sunday there was a story about Paddy Gower and his detached retina in the Herald on Sunday. Really? I hear you ask. Really? Yes, really. Pam Corkery will have sprayed toast crumbs over her dressing gown. The reporter has become...
    The Daily Blog | 28-09
  • Terrorising Australia’s Muslim population
    We should be suspicious when 800 police conduct “terror” raids across Australia, but only one person is charged with a relevant terrorism offence (of which we know few details). We should be suspicious of the lurid tales of terrorists planning...
    The Daily Blog | 28-09
  • Another Labour leader has resigned and as per usual, the media lost its min...
    Another Labour leader has resigned and as per usual, the media lost its mind. I know the Labour party has its problems and I’m not even going to try to prescribe what should be done about it. But what I...
    The Daily Blog | 28-09
  • GUEST BLOG: Anjum Rahman – Loyalty, Leadership and the Labour Party
    My first after the election and I can only say I’m feeling pretty sad.  It was a terrible result, and feels even more so knowing the number of volunteers hours, hard work & sacrifice made by so many people who...
    The Daily Blog | 27-09
  • A Study in Party Stability
    . In terms of long-term stability, one party above stands above all others, with the exception of personality-driven groups such as NZ First and United Future. That party is the Greens. If the Labour Party wants to look elsewhere for...
    The Daily Blog | 27-09
  • Cunliffe vs Robertson – Round 2
    Much to the disappointment of the NZ Herald and other right wing pundits who have decided they would like to appoint the next Labour leader, Cunliffe has surprised by deciding to damn the Caucus and appeal directly to the members...
    The Daily Blog | 27-09
  • The tasks before the left and labour movement
    Anyone on the left would have been disappointed at the result of the election. There was an opportunity to win, but that got lost through a combination of factors. There were tactical decisions made by Labour, the Greens and Internet-Mana...
    The Daily Blog | 27-09
  • From Fiji’s dictatorship to ‘democracy’ – the AUT student team on t...
    Mads Anneberg’s profile on Ricardo Morris and Repúblika. David Robie also blogs at Café Pacific. THREE STUDENTS from AUT University covered Fiji’s historic “from dictatorship to democracy” general election this month. While the election arguably legitimised Voreqe Bainimarama’s so-called 2006...
    The Daily Blog | 27-09
  • David Cunliffe Resigns As Labour Leader – Forces Robertson Out of the Bel...
    David Cunliffe has made a smart move, resigning as the leader of the Labour Party so as to force a leadership primary campaign. The move draws rival Grant Robertson out of the beltway to parts of the country where he...
    The Daily Blog | 27-09
  • Deep thought vs Deep prejudice
    . . This letter to the editor appeared in The Listener, on 27 September, and caught my attention; . . Mr Dawson wrote in response to one of those typically unthinking comments which  condemned the poor for their “unbridled, reckless...
    The Daily Blog | 27-09
  • The NZ National voters elected
    The NZ National voters elected...
    The Daily Blog | 26-09
  • GUEST BLOG: Kate Davis – The post election postmortem is giving me post p...
    I feel the need to contribute to the discourse. This is a new experience for me. Not having an opinion, but expressing it on a popular forum in a public sphere. That’s why I have waited till now and put...
    The Daily Blog | 26-09
  • A dictionary of education terms and definitions, brought to you by the let...
    Free to all TDB readers, please enjoy your very own cut-out-and-keep handy primer of terms that I predict you will need to know over the next three years… Achievement Gap (noun) Synonym for wealth gap. ACT (abstract noun) Intangible. Reported to exist in...
    The Daily Blog | 26-09
  • A Mines Rescue brigadesman’s perspective on the Pike River Mine
    My husband and I lived in Greymouth in 2010, we were a coal mining family.  The day Pike River Mine blew up and the days following changed us profoundly, as it did for so many.  This is a Mines Rescue...
    The Daily Blog | 26-09
  • The Left Triumphant! A Counterfactual History of the Last Twelve Months.
    DID IT REALLY HAVE TO END LIKE THIS? Reading through the commentary threads of the left-wing blogs it is impossible to not feel the anger; the sense of betrayal; the impression of having had something vital ripped from their grasp;...
    The Daily Blog | 26-09
  • GUEST BLOG – Myles Thomas: The media won it!
    Make no mistake, John Key is a clever communicator – reasonable, authoritative and relaxed – but without the media he wouldn’t be PM. Depending on your viewpoint, New Zealand’s news media are either a bunch of Grey Lynn lefties or...
    The Daily Blog | 25-09
  • Not Learning Lessons Past: the West’s Response to IS
    In an earlier posting Ukraine, United Kingdom, Ireland, Scotland, I noted that the first lesson of conflict learned by Robert McNamara was “understand your adversary”. If we have honourable objectives, our first and most important weapon is empathy. In the Vietnam War,...
    The Daily Blog | 25-09
  • GUEST BLOG: Dr Jarrod Gilbert – Proof of David Farrar’s deception: my ...
    In the lead up to the election the Minister of Corrections Anne Tolley launched a gang policy. In order to justify the government’s approach she used gang figures that overstated the gang problem. Not by a little bit, but a...
    The Daily Blog | 25-09
  • SPECIAL FEATURE: Stuart Nash – Red To The Rescue?
    SPECIAL FEATURE by Selwyn Manning. IF THE ELECTION RESULT which was dished out to Labour was not enough to incite an immediate leadership primary, then the caucus’ refusal to recognise David Cunliffe as the leader should cement it. Now is...
    The Daily Blog | 25-09
  • Has the one party state crackdown begun already? Left wing NZ activist grou...
    Well known left wing activist social media group, ‘John Key Has Left Down NZ’ has been shut down on Facebook. At 11.40pm last night, Facebook, without any warning shut the group down siting a breach of terms of service as...
    The Daily Blog | 24-09
  • Why Cunliffe should probably just let Nash & Robertson win
    We have to face some very unpalatable home truths. If you are a left wing political person, best you put your vote now to the Green Party, although you’ll have to do that all the while the Greens frantically tell you...
    The Daily Blog | 24-09
  • The graceless win of Kelvin Davis
    The graceless win of Cameron Slater’s mate in the North, Kelvin Davis is difficult to swallow. Here Cameron Slater’s mate in the North is shitting on Hone Harawira by calling Hone all steam, no hangi as Kelvin rubs his ganged up win into...
    The Daily Blog | 24-09
  • So Labour shifted too far to the left?
    So Labour shifted too far to the left?   Here’s the ill-judged view of Josie Pagani in the Pundit “Labour must change”: “At the last election I made myself a heretic when I wrote a column mentioning how unpopular the...
    The Daily Blog | 24-09
  • Uncomplicated Loyalties: Why Cunliffe and the Labour Left Cannot Win
    THE STORY of David Cunliffe’s leadership of the Labour Party has been one of missed opportunities and unforced errors. That he was the only choice available to those who wanted to rid the Labour Party of its neoliberal cuckoos is...
    The Daily Blog | 24-09
  • So we can expect this now?
    So we can expect this now?...
    The Daily Blog | 23-09
  • Can Labour be saved? Why Whaleoil & National won and why we need a new ...
    As the shock of my optimism that NZers would recoil from the real John Key as exposed by Dirty Politics and mass surveillance duplicities wears off, I am surprised to find that the right in NZ are not content with...
    The Daily Blog | 23-09
  • Three more years (up shit creek and paddling hard)
    “If the future is not green, there is no future. If the future is not you, there is no future”. Emma Thompson’s stirring words to the climate marchers in London last Sunday are worth considering in the aftermath of the...
    The Daily Blog | 23-09
  • One Party State
    In years to come this election will be seen as a historic turning point towards one party rule. I don`t mean this literally, absolute single party dictatorship is not in prospect. In the New Zealand context though, one party has...
    The Daily Blog | 23-09
  • No More. The Left Falls.
    . We cannot be beaten down Because we are down already. We can only rise up and if you should beat us down, We will rise again. And again. And again… And when you tire of beating us down, We...
    The Daily Blog | 23-09
  • Hang tight everyone – Marama Davidson campaign reflection
    To the many people who had expressed their overwhelming support for me to enter Parliament this election – thank you. That the Greens held steady in a big loss for progressive politics is an achievement. We are hopeful that after...
    The Daily Blog | 22-09
  • New flag for NZ once Key signs TPPA
    New flag for NZ once Key signs TPPA...
    The Daily Blog | 22-09
  • Reflecting on Elections Past
    There are a number of past elections that can give the left in New Zealand guidance and hope. Two major points though. Major parties require leaders who can bridge the political divide through strength of personality, vision of what it...
    The Daily Blog | 22-09
  • GUEST BLOG: Kelly Ellis – The Reptile Room
    I stress, at the outset, that I’ve got nothing against reptiles. Some of my best friends are reptiles. Some say I am one, but I’m not really. I just emulate that ability to sit, stationary for hours in court, eyes...
    The Daily Blog | 22-09
  • The success of right-wing counter messaging in the election
    One of the reasons National won the election was due to its success in counter messaging – and the way so many media commentators ran with th the right-wing spin. Here are some examples. Dirty Politics The original message was...
    The Daily Blog | 22-09
  • New Flag competition
    New Flag competition...
    The Daily Blog | 21-09
  • Submissions sought on herbicide for weed control in maize
    The Environmental Protection Authority is calling for submissions on a herbicide to improve broadleaf weed control in maize. The substance CADET contains 100g fluthiacet-methyl in the form of an emulsifiable concentrate and would contain a new active ingredient...
    Scoop politics | 01-10
  • Jesse Mulligan Lives Below Poverty Line
    Jesse Mulligan Lives Below Poverty Line TV personality Jesse Mulligan will live on the equivalent of the extreme poverty line this October in order to raise awareness of sex trafficking. Mulligan will survive on $2.25 for his food from October...
    Scoop politics | 01-10
  • Narratives from the 2014 Election: What do we learn?
    Narratives from the 2014 Election: What do we learn? - Sue Bradford, Russell Brown & Kirk Serpes discuss....
    Scoop politics | 01-10
  • Voices from Oceania to speak out on climate change
    Voices from Oceania to speak out on climate change at launch of Pacific environment report...
    Scoop politics | 01-10
  • Changes to Pacific Tsunami Warning Centre messages
    The Ministry of Civil Defence & Emergency Management advises that while changes to Pacific Tsunami Warning Centre messages come into effect from today (Wednesday 1 October), the Ministry has been, and remains, the authoritative voice for tsunami...
    Scoop politics | 01-10
  • Police remove banner at Statoil Offices in Wellington
    Oil Free Wellington hung a banner at 9:30 this morning at the Statoil office headquarters in Wellington as the Petroleum Summit opened in Auckland. The banner, which read 'Statoil out of Northland: Stop Deep Sea Oil', has now been removed...
    Scoop politics | 01-10
  • Mixed massages raise concerns
    Mixed massages raise concerns for Te Taumata Kaumatua Ngapuhi nui tonu, and Te Wakaminenga O nga Hapu Ngapuhi....
    Scoop politics | 01-10
  • Union Slams Port Boss’s Pay Rise
    The Rail and Maritime Transport Union (RMTU) says Lyttelton Port CEO Peter Davie’s 18% wage rise, taking his pay packet to $1.24m, is unjustified and inflammatory. ‘Lyttelton port has an appalling health and safety record, with three deaths on...
    Scoop politics | 30-09
  • Prisons expert Ron Nikkel to speak in Auckland October 15
    Prison Fellowship NZ and JustSpeak have the privilege of hosting the former president of Prison Fellowship International, Ron Nikkel....
    Scoop politics | 30-09
  • Hundreds of educators protest IES in Rotorua
    Four hundred educators from around the country took their opposition to the Government's controversial Investing in Educational Success policy to the public today....
    Scoop politics | 30-09
  • Crime drops by 3.2 % in the 2013 / 2014 financial year
    Criminal offences dropped by 3.2 % in the last financial year according to figures released today through Statistics New Zealand....
    Scoop politics | 30-09
  • Narratives from the 2014 Election: what do we learn?
    I would like to invite you to a Fabians Reflection on "Dirty Politics, Dotcom and Labour’s worst result" with Colin James, Keith Ng, Stephanie Rodgers and Richard Harman. They will provide a debrief of analysis and lessons from the 2014...
    Scoop politics | 30-09
  • Oil Free Wellington drops banner from Statoil headquarters
    Today members of Oil Free Wellington have targeted the offices of Statoil, by attaching a banner reading 'Statoil out of Northland: Stop Deep Sea Oil' to the entrance of Vodafone on the Quay Midland Park, where Statoil's New Zealand office...
    Scoop politics | 30-09
  • Media Statement from Karen Price
    “After a period of intense media attention and scrutiny of our family, I set up and used an anonymous Twitter account over the weekend and made a number of comments that I deeply regret....
    Scoop politics | 30-09
  • Greenpeace disrupts Simon Bridges’ speech to oil industry
    Greenpeace activists have disrupted the opening speech by Energy and Resources Minister Simon Bridges at the Petroleum Summit in Auckland this morning....
    Scoop politics | 30-09
  • New Zealand Red Cross Responds to Drought in Tonga
    New Zealand Red Cross has sent an aid worker and two desalination units, to turn seawater into safe drinking water in the drought-hit Ha’apai islands of Tonga....
    Scoop politics | 30-09
  • Can you ever tell if an email is real or forged?
    Computer industry veteran Brian Eardley-Wilmot warns that we should never take claims about stolen emails at face value....
    Scoop politics | 30-09
  • NZ MPs to attend the ASPG Annual Conference in Sydney
    New Zealand MPs to attend the Australasian Study of Parliament Group Annual Conference in Sydney...
    Scoop politics | 30-09
  • Independent Maori seats still needed in Parliament
    “He’s got to be joking!” is the reaction of the president of the Maori Party, Rangimarie Naida Glavish to a call by a former Labour Minister of Maori Affairs, Dover Samuels, for debate by Maori on whether the Maori electorates...
    Scoop politics | 30-09
  • Support for Democratic Rights in Hong Kong
    Rallies supporting the rights for universal suffrage will take place all over New Zealand today and tomorrow...
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • Trout Mass-Poisoned in New Zealand
    Trout Mass-Poisoned in New Zealand The Graf Boys New Zealand has some of the best trout fishing in the world! Every year thousands of international visitors wade pristine rivers in search of the freshwater game fish....
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • New Zealand’s 2014 Hottest Vegetarians Crowned
    With winter gone things are heating up, and things just got even hotter with the crowning of New Zealand’s hottest vegetarians, says animal advocacy group SAFE. Marking World Vegetarian Day, 1st October, director James Napier Robertson and actor...
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • A day to remember our duty to look after our senior citizens
    Human Rights Commissioner Dr Jackie Blue says International Day of the Older Person (1 October) is a United Nations day to celebrate our senior citizens, but also acknowledge the need to protect our kaumatua, or older people from abuse and...
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • Clear data needed on impact of benefit sanctions on children
    A lack of data on benefit sanctions means there is no way of knowing whether welfare reform is helping or harming children, says Child Poverty Action Group....
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • The socialist alternative to austerity and war
    Public meeting: After the New Zealand election—the socialist alternative to austerity and war By Tom Peters 29 September 2014...
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • New recruits to boost border protection
    Twenty six new recruits began an intensive nine-week training course in Auckland today that will see them graduate as Customs officers in time for the busy summer season....
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • Dwindling Mallard population shows up ‘pest’ myth
    The pro hunting organisation Fish & Game is researching the causes of the decline of the mallard duck population, upset at the prospect of fewer ducks to kill....
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • Support for Democratic Rights in Hong Kong
    New Zealanders in Auckland will gather on Wednesday to support the rights for universal suffrage in Hong Kong....
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • Campbell Live Exclusive Interview with David Cunliffe
    David Cunliffe resigned as leader of the Labour party on Saturday; but he still wants the top job....
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • Action needed on cycling safety
    “Clearly we aren't doing enough to protect the 1.5 million New Zealanders who ride bikes,” said Mr Morgan....
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • World Rivers Day Passes Without A Whimper
    Sunday 28 September was World Rivers Day to celebrate clean, flowing rivers and caring about them. But a recreation-conservation advocacy the Council of Outdoor Recreation Associations of NZ (CORANZ) says the day seems to have slipped by without...
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • The Kiwifruit Claim: Q&A
    1. Who is running The Kiwifruit Claim? The Kiwifruit Claim was founded by kiwifruit growers representing well in excess of 10% of the industry. 2. Why are you running this claim? The introduction of Psa into New Zealand had devastating...
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • Fed Farmers Need to Be Weaned
    The Taxpayers’ Union is calling on Federated Farmers to make a firm commitment to reject any future Government funding, after it was revealed that the lobby group had received over $200,000 of payments in recent years....
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • Children paying the price for charter school stitch up
    New Zealand children will be paying a high price for a one-seat deal between ACT and National, with an expansion of the beleaguered charter school system says education union NZEI Te Riu Roa....
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • Hikoi From North Reaches Oil Conference Tomorrow
    Today: The Hikoi opposing Statoil plans for seismic testing and deep sea oil drilling has marched through Dargaville and later be welcomed to Piringatahi Marae, West Harbour,Tamaki Makaurau/Auckland....
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • Communities Still Count
    The efforts of many organisations to influence the electorate and the political parties they voted for in the lead up to the 2014 Election is over. The voting public has spoken and provided a strong endorsement to the centre-right National...
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • Eleven social enterprises get ready to take off
    Eleven teams from across the country will take part in the Launchpad, Ākina’s programme to get social enterprise ideas off the ground....
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • An open letter to the Prime Minister
    in which Transparency International New Zealand asks the Prime Minister to ensure integrity underpins all work he leads "in the best interests of all New Zealanders"...
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • Paula Bennett ‘great work’ acknowledged – McVicar
    “Paula Bennett, as Minister of Social Development, has contributed significantly in lowering our crime rate and preventing further victims.” - McVicar...
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • Key’s Restraint in Propping up ACT Welcomed
    The Taxpayers’ Union is welcoming the announcement that ACT MP David Seymour will not be appointed as a Minister....
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • Only Concession is from the Taxpayer
    Responding to the confidence and supply agreement reached between John Key and Peter Dunne’s United Future Party, Taxpayers’ Union Executive Director Jordan Williams says:...
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • A Tent for Any Tenant
    AUT students and Salvation Army Manukau Community Ministries team up to raise awareness, as South Auckland’s housing situation moves from crisis to collapse...
    Scoop politics | 28-09
  • Cycle Safety Panel Draft Report Seeks Comments
    The Cycle Safety Panel Draft Report and Recommendations was published on 25th September 2014 and the panel are inviting comments. Lucinda Rees from NZ School Speeds, the organisation campaigning for consistent speed limits outside schools, is encouraged...
    Scoop politics | 28-09
  • Labour’s Review – Terms of Reference Agreed
    Labour's Review - Terms of Reference Agreed Following a meeting of its ruling New Zealand Council yesterday, Labour has released the terms of reference for the comprehensive review initiated following its 2014 election result. The review will comprise three...
    Scoop politics | 28-09
  • The final countdown for Kiwi smokers
    There are just two days left until many smokers stubb out their cigarettes for the last time and embark on Stoptober – New Zealand’s first national quit-smoking month....
    Scoop politics | 28-09
  • “In A Democracy People Win And People Lose”
    “In A Democracy People Win And People Lose” – Chris Hipkins Labour Senior Whip I would say to all of the caucus and all of the members let's actually hear the arguments from the people who want to be leader,...
    Scoop politics | 28-09
  • Campaign to make Murder of Unborn ”Safe and Legal”
    The IPPF have launched an international campaign through its 161 affiliates including the New Zealand Family Planning Association [NZFPA] to make the murder of the unborn safe and legal and accepted as a human right. This is an acceleration of...
    Scoop politics | 28-09
  • Grant Robertson Labour leader hopeful on TVNZ Q+A
    “Look I think what we need to be is relevant, clear and consistent with New Zealanders about the Labour Party's values,” said Labour leader hopeful Grant Robertson on TVNZ’s Q+A programme....
    Scoop politics | 28-09
  • Labour Needs to Get House in Order Before Deciding Leader
    Ex Labour party leader and possible repeat contender David Shearer says the Labour Party is going about the post-election period in the wrong way....
    Scoop politics | 28-09
  • Hate merchants at it again with smear tactics
    “It’s disappointing to see the hate merchants at it again with yet another attempt to smear and silence a health professional who’s doing research they disagree with,” says Ian Powell, Executive Director of the Association of Salaried Medical Specialists...
    Scoop politics | 28-09
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