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Rotten

Written By: - Date published: 4:24 pm, February 14th, 2014 - 269 comments
Categories: john key, national, same old national - Tags: ,

Stuff has an astounding interview with John Key where he reveals he has regular catch-ups with Cameron Slater.

We’ve always known that there were close ties between National and the abomination that is Whaleoil but now we know that the ties go right to the top.

As Danyl recently pointed out Slater has a history of filth that goes as far as mocking the deaths of Kiwi kids. Now we know that’s who the Prime Minister gets information and advice from.
What a rotten bunch.

269 comments on “Rotten”

  1. fender 1

    “What a rotten bunch”

    +1

  2. stever 2

    They are the Hollowmen.

    And is it a two-way conduit for information? Let’s the see the evidence that it is not…because why would the Whale bother otherwise?

    Or perhaps “talking to the PM” gets him off enough??

    Man, this is nasty stuff.

  3. In fact, let’s quote Danyl’s post:

    “To me this material marks Slater out as an obvious sociopath, someone so horribly damaged that all you can do is pity them and ignore them. Right? So I find it a little weird that so many other people read Slater’s site and don’t have a problem with how deranged it is. The Justice Minister Judith Collins is a huge fan; the Prime Minister’s office supply him with content. He’s a regular guest on various talk-back radio shows. Duncan Garner and Sean Plunket appear to be WhaleOil fans. The Herald’s media columnist John Drinnan routinely links to his site.”

    and add to its roll of dishonour “Prime Minister John Key has regular catch-ups with him.”

    • weka 3.1

      Thanks, that’s a good link. What Slater actually does needs to be made visible to mainstream NZ, so they can see who their Prime Minister is mates with.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 3.2

      +1 PM.

      I don’t read WO – perhaps one visit per year to check if people are telling the truth about some vileness. I get my impression of it second-hand.

      Now – via Danyl – I know he has made a habit of this ghoulish mockery, it reinforces my first thought on reading Key’s admission. Poison is king.

      This is foul.

      • Reid 3.2.1

        Funnily enough that’s exactly what I do with The Stranded – one visit per year to check if people are telling the truth about some vileness.

        Normally my prediction comes true and it turns out they’re just confused and bewildered.

        Well, that’s it for another year.

        • stever 3.2.1.1

          Bye bye then.

          Don’t trip over your smugness on the way out.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 3.2.1.2

          Ouch :twisted:

          Open wide, Reid; here comes the drill.

        • xtasy 3.2.1.3

          “Reid” between the lines, it says: “Farrar”, “Kiwiblog”, “Farrar”, “Kiwiblog”, “Farrar”, “Kiwiblog”, “Far*ar(se)”, “Kiwiflog”.

          Yep, a preconditioned mindset will let the truth look like lies, brainwashing works, indeed!

        • mickysavage 3.2.1.4

          Reid at least on the Standard we have discussions and exchange ideas. I mean I read Slater’s stuff to see who he is sliming and who is leaking to him but really? Comparing the robust discussion at the Standard with the slime of Slater’s blog??

          • Jimmie 3.2.1.4.1

            Seriously?

            Have you never read a thread on here when someone of a mildly right wing persuasion makes a comment (not a flame troll or whatever) but an articulate and reasoned point of view about what ever the subject is.

            The number of left wing comments where the commentator is mocked, laughed, insulted, and ridiculed is quite astounding. (Note that rarely are their comments criticized by a reasoned or thoughtful manner, but personal abuse is quite rampant here)

            This has caused a situation where the only group of folk left here are the rabid left.

            It is no wonder that the standard is stuck in a rut and going no where numbers wise as the commentariat have decided that dissenting opinions are not to be tolerated.

            • mickysavage 3.2.1.4.1.1

              OK Jimmie

              Provide an example and then let the debate begin.

              And BTW the Standard is doing fine thank you very much.

              • SHG (not Colonial Viper)

                Two examples from my own recent experience:

                When I commented that Parekura Horomia appeared to have eaten himself to death on the taxpayer’s tab and referred to the food component of his Ministerial expense reports, I was instantly described as “a lying disrespectful son of a bitch”, in spite of the fact that I had posted all the expense claims for comment.

                When I pointed out just last week that the current immigration-law imbalance between NZ and Australia is a state of affairs approved by a Labour Government, I was called “an advert for post-natal abortion”. At one point I posted some immigration numbers (for humour value: I didn’t say the numbers were from a paper by Phil Goff) and I was called “stupid and deceitful” displaying “gutter-level partisan hypocrisy”.

                This place is just as vicious as Whaleoil.co.nz. But more sanctimonious.

                [lprent: You lose thread context on the RSS feed, but I'd say that the numbers of straight insults/abuse is several orders of magnitude higher at WhaleOil. We actually have a restriction in that that abuse has to be pointed - ie has to explain why they are abusing you. That is definitely not the case at Whaleoil. Justy have a look whenever any "leftie" comments there.

                But the standard specified in the policy is that we're after "robust" debate and discussion. That does not mean that people have to be polite. In fact it was specifically put into the policy because most of the "left" forums around when we started this site sounded more like petite middle class dinner parties than actual political discussions. Of course it doesn't leave you defenseless. You always have the option of robust comments yourself. Just be wary of risks with the fine line with authors on their own posts.

                Of course if you don't like the rules, then there is always the option stated in the bottom of the about. ]

                • McFlock

                  When I commented that Parekura Horomia appeared to have eaten himself to death on the taxpayer’s tab and referred to the food component of his Ministerial expense reports, I was instantly described as “a lying disrespectful son of a bitch”, in spite of the fact that I had posted all the expense claims for comment.

                  Ah, here.
                  No, not “immediately”. After some period where you basically shat all over the post announcing the death of the man. The criticism (and your ban) was valid.

                  As for the immigration one, you blamed Lab5 for the actions of the howard govt, and praised key for “concessions” that were negotiated under lab5, then argued that labour didn’t crack down on immigration because PI immigrants vote labour… well, did you really expect a polite response?

                  • SHG (not Colonial Viper)

                    No, on The Standard I never expect politeness, which is why the ad hominem attacks never ruffle me. If one voluntarily enters a room full of autistic children one doesn’t get to complain about the social skills on display. Being called a son of a bitch or an advertisement for abortion is exactly the level of discourse I expect at The Standard, and it never fails to disappoint.

                    • McFlock

                      And do you regard your initial comments about Horomia as being “polite”?

                      Seems to me that you created a self-fulfilling prophecy.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      While you’re casually re-writing history, it’s “post-natal abortion”. If you’re going to whine like a victim of a preventable infectious disease you could at least get it right.

                    • SHG (not Colonial Viper)

                      LOL IT’S OK GUYS IT’S JUST DISCUSSIONS AND DEBATE HERE

                    • McFlock

                      Awww, another complaint about hurt feelings?

                      So, did you go to the tangi and complain that he ate himself to death at the taxpayers’ expense? Do you think you’d have had a polite reception there if you had?

        • mike 3.2.1.5

          I think it is fantastic that Winnie’s stupid accusations about “GCSB” spying on him were shot out of the sky. Why does Winston First think he is so important anyway? Oh that’s right, his own bloated, self-inflated sense of self importance drove him to think that the spy agencies would be interested in his moronic, self-serving inane utterances.

          regarding WO, I find it a refreshing breath of truth and directness that is so missing from the shallow, venal mass media.

          • mickysavage 3.2.1.5.1

            So Cameron has the ability to know how many times in a two year period Winston visited somewhere?

            Really?

  4. Rich 4

    I wonder if information from GCSB/NZSIS/Police gets laundered through Slater – wouldn’t be hard for someone in one of those (or in the US Embassy) to feed him anything they find that’s of relevance. It’s happened before.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 4.1

      That occurred to me too. “If the prime minister said that’s the case, that’s the case.”

    • Roflcopter 4.2

      That’s awesome… I hope you stroke that line for all it’s worth… it’s gold!

    • Mary 4.3

      Most of the things that appear on Slater’s site, apart from the links to stupid youtube videos, are way beyond his intellect. He’s been fed totally manufactured and wholly complete pieces of horse shit from others for very long time, now. That’s obvious, and of course it’s always been likely that those who do this have at least strong links with the National Party and other right-wing thugs. The significance of Key’s admission today is that it confirms what we’ve suspected has been happening all along. If Key and Slater talk regularly is it possible that Key’s people and Slater don’t talk regularly?

      • Mary 4.3.1

        Or then again, is it just a smokescreen to divert attention away from Key getting the information from the spies, and that the truth is that he’s passed this information on to Slater? Where did Slater get it from? Rachel Glucina? Pete Glucina? The spies via Key?

        • weka 4.3.1.1

          One of the links put up today suggested that Key ‘slipped’ when he inferred contact with Slater. Anyone else pick that up?

          • One Anonymous Bloke 4.3.1.1.1

            Oh it’s a massive slip up. I phone people who mock dead babies regularly, don’t you, Weka? Sure, it might be a shell game, yada yada, but John Key, Prime Minister, maintains regular contact with a man who mocks dead babies for money, and that, my friend, is an opportunity.

            • Stephanie Rodgers 4.3.1.1.1.1

              What I find fascinating is that from what Key says, this is a personal interaction. It’s not that he has someone from his office keep an eye on WhaleOil, or gets a press secretary to meet regularly with Slater. He literally has regular conversations HIMSELF with Slater. That’s a massive level of access for a blogger who generally posts vileness and clickbait.

              • Mike S

                “That’s a massive level of access for a blogger who generally posts vileness and clickbait.”

                I would guess that from Key’s perspective, the only important thing is how popular is slater’s blog in terms of voters. Isn’t it the most visited NZ blog? There is some really nasty, racist, mean and sometimes even scary shit posted on his pages by his fans.

                • Rich

                  It’s pretty debatable that many of those clicks on Slater’s site are real. The going rate for click farms is about 1000 clicks a USD, so $8k* would buy 8 million of those phoney page impressions. Way cheaper than paying for a table at a National party dinner.

                  *The fine Slater’s backers were happy to cough up when he posted the names of child abuse victims.

          • karol 4.3.1.1.2

            It’s in the video, and the print text, with the Stuff article. A journo asked Key directly about Slater.

            • weka 4.3.1.1.2.1

              Thanks karol, this one I think

              http://www.stuff.co.nz/lightbox/national/politics/9723185/PMs-Whaleoil-friends?KeepThis=true

              I’m not sure how much I place on body language, but when Key says he absolutely swears his life that there’s been no public agency involved, he’s shaking his head. He does that alot right through. Is that a normal characteristic of his.

              Nice to see him squirming though, and good on the journos for actually asking the pertinent questions.

              • geoff

                That video is gold!
                He gets that semi-drunk, ‘I’ve been caught out’, stupid glazed smile and you can tell he’s thinking ‘oh crap what have I done?!?!?’

                Key said he speaks to “heaps” of bloggers. Which ones??
                I’d say he speaks to about 2 of them.

              • Murray Olsen

                Key’s body language is not that of an honest person. I suspect there is a good reason for that.

                • SpaceMonkey

                  Aside of from the stupid grin and dismissive demeanour, another of John Key’s tells that he’s lying through his teeth is the sharp intake of breath at the end of the sentence.

      • mike 4.3.2

        Its interesting to get the general view of my politically diverse mates that WO is refreshing and bluntly direct. Makes a nice change from all the gutless, whining bucket of warm wallpaper paste that passes for “news” in the mass media these days.

        • mickysavage 4.3.2.1

          “general view of my politically diverse mates”

          So male dominated and you think that they will provide a representative view. Really?

  5. Ben 5

    It is gutter politics. It is amazing how in spite of all this dirty work, Key is still quite popular according to the polls. Strange!

  6. Pascal's bookie 6

    And take a wee squizz at the press conf, where Key is being asked how Whaleoil got an OIA request from the SIS dealt with so efficiently and well suited to his purpose, from about 3:30 on

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ouf5aR-8lzE&feature=youtube_gdata_player

  7. JustLikeTigerWoods 7

    Whilst you’re making yourself look even more foolish by shooting the messenger, be sure not to forget the heart of the issue.

    Winston and Russel visiting his dot.com-ness.

    What was discussed? What was arranged? Why the need for a non-disclosure agreement?

    Time for some transparency, chaps. In the public interest…

    • stever 7.1

      I hope you asked the same questions after the “cup of tea” episode. Especially as the police decided to prosecute someone who might have helped in the transparency you now so crave :)

      • JustLikeTigerWoods 7.1.1

        The difference is pretty obvious. We know exactly why Key and Banks were there.

        Meanwhile, I guess it’s just a total coincidence that Norman has waded into extradition matters, and that both have asked numerous questions about the GCSB as it relates to KDC.

        Nothing to see here, I guess. Just like Brash innocently meeting the Exclusive Bretheren. Just a friendly chat. Many people on here saw nothing in that either, of course.

        All very innocent.

        • Pascal's bookie 7.1.1.1

          So you’re saying National obviously agrees with the Exclusive Brethren about stuff then, rightio. That they have longstanding well known set of beliefs that would make it obvious why they’d be talking to the EBs.

      • Paw prick 7.1.2

        Didn’t have too as it was illegally recorded …….oh the irony

    • Pascal's bookie 7.2

      laugh.

      What do Key and Whale regularly discuss? In the public interest.

      Key now looks to be Whale’s main ‘tipline is running hot’ source for all the dirt he spills. The PM, on our dime, uses a guy who’s currently facing defamation proceedings, and has previously breached court orders, to dish dirt on his political opponents.

      • SpaceMonkey 7.2.1

        Doesn’t surprise me… being a bankster, Key will find common ground with a blogster like Slater. Filth rolls with filth.

    • weka 7.3

      Pay attention Tiger. Norman’s transparency:

      Thirdly, did I discuss [with Dotcom] blocking extradition if we were in government? No. I discussed some of the issues around his multitude of court cases but not the government’s role in the extradition process. I wasn’t even aware of the role of the Minister of Justice until recently, and anyway, my opposition to the Govt approach to Dotcom has been well known for many months. I did urge him not to proceed with his party, but he carried on regardless! The Greens already lead on issues like the internet economy, digital freedom and privacy; the risk is that the Internet party could actually help National get re-elected by wasting votes. But don’t expect any of these facts to get in the way of a national Party smear campaign.

      Full text needs FB login https://www.facebook.com/dave.kennedy.1610/posts/10203049641582800#_=_

      • Bob 7.3.1

        “I did urge him not to proceed with his party, but he carried on regardless!”
        And yet all of a sudden Dotcom is going to drop his party if he isn’t polling at the 5% threshold ahead of the election……what did Russell Norman offer for him to agree to this? Is this the reason for the sudden renewal of interest in his case and now a proclamation that both Labour and the Greens will help to fight the extradition if voted into power?
        Imagine if National or specifically John Key was involved in this situation!
        These back room dealings have done no-one on the left any favours, despite the obvious attempts at deflections, like this post. NEWSFLASH – The leader of NZ’s largest right wing party has had discussions with NZ’s largest right wing blogger…….wow, what a scoop that is!
        Hasn’t David Cunliffe had guest posts on The Standard before? It’s an outrage!!!

        • Pascal's bookie 7.3.1.1

          “And yet all of a sudden Dotcom is going to drop his party if he isn’t polling at the 5% threshold ahead of the election”

          Shocking, that a German would understand how MMP works. Politicians pulling out of a race and endorsing another candidate is hardly an inexplicable thing.

          Likewise, the Greens have been all over the Governments failings in due process towards Mr dotCom since the story broke.

          Do you think Norman would have answered the question any differently if the Internet Party had never been dreamed up?

          There’s no real there there, in this ‘deal theory’. It all comes down to ‘Oh it looks bad, if you assume it is bad’. But the theory doesn’t actually explain why people are doing things. Both people are doing what you could reasonably expect without there being a deal, or even without the other side of the alleged deal even being an issue.

          ie:

          If there was no Internet party, would the Greens be quite likely to look more favourably on declining to extradite DotCom than National? Yes. So there is no need for a deal to explain this side of it

          Would DotCom be likely to pull out of a race if it became obvious that by staying in the race it would be counterproductive? Yes. So again, there is no need for a deal to explain his behaviour.

          The deal theory, in short, explains nothing, and has no evidence to support it..

    • Hami Shearlie 7.4

      As private citizens who are not Dot.Com’s local MPs’ and who are not Government Ministers spending Government money, I wouldn’t have thought that what they discussed with Dot.Com is anyone’s business but theirs! Dot.Com is now a political party leader and it’s normal for party leaders to meet with each other from time to time, just like John Key meets with Act’s leader and Colin Craig!

  8. Disraeli Gladstone 8

    Danyl also tweeted:

    “I sometimes talk to the rats in the gutters but that doesn’t mean I endorse plague”.

    That sums up what I think on the matter.

    • weka 8.1

      Not sure who the rat in the gutter is in this case, but Key isn’t talking to Slater sometimes. He’s having regular weekly briefings with the guy.

      • stever 8.1.1

        Perhaps they share the gutter. Rats can be sweet, you know.

      • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill) 8.1.2

        +1 Weka

        Makes me view Disraeli as a shill – minimising and dismissing the matter – ‘nothing to see here, let’s move on now

        Pathetic that these people pander to interests that don’t serve any of us – including themselves.

        • weka 8.1.2.1

          Not sure about completely dismissing someone on the basis of one comment though bl :-)

        • Disraeli Gladstone 8.1.2.2

          Does that make Danyl a shill as well even though he was used in the post itself as an example of Whale’s vileness?

          It’s simple really.

          From what I’ve seen of his blog, Slater is not a nice person. He is cruel and vindictive. However, due to the media wanting to talk and play off him (for reasons unknown), he has become a player in the political world. He is quoted by actual journalist and can set a news agenda.

          John Key is a pragmatist. We’ve seen that since his first day as party leader, if not before. So it doesn’t surprise me that Key is holding his nose and is now talking directly to Slater (as well as others) to help shape news agenda and pick up on salacious bits of gossip.

          It’s not particularly nice. It’s not cricket, that’s for sure. There’s no fair play involved. But it’s also not Key endorsing Slater’s brand of hatefulness. He’s using him. And when he’s not hot property, he’ll be dropped that quick as possible.

          Boiled down to its roots: it’s good politics, bad humanity. And politics will trumps humanity until the wider public cares and let’s face it, most people don’t have a clue who Slater is.

          • Clemgeopin 8.1.2.2.1

            To me, MOST IMPORTANTLY, this is not the New Zealand way.

          • Pascal's bookie 8.1.2.2.2

            Slater isn’t talked to by the ninth floor because he gets newsworthy stuff. That’s bass akwards.

            Jason Ede wasn’t hired to work in the PMs office in spite of him previously blogging on WO.

            The PM isn’t holding his nose, ffs.

          • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill) 8.1.2.2.3

            @ Disraeli Gladstone

            However, due to the media wanting to talk and play off him (for reasons unknown), he has become a player in the political world. He is quoted by actual journalist and can set a news agenda

            Why are you painting such a neutral and innocent picture here?

            “For some unknown reason”?

            Slater is the son of a former National party president and he just ‘happens’ to gain political influence with his highly questionable blogsite.

            Oh really?

            Then Key ‘admits’ to speaking with the guy on a regular basis just when there are accusations about where Key got the information about Winston Peter’s activities from.

            And you really think there is nothing to see here?

            Key is creating a dishonest distraction to a pretty serious issue – that he is using our secret services for his own party’s political agenda while he is PM.

            And you (along with a large majority, no doubt) believe Key when he swears on his life that our secret services are not being abused in this way?

            Well you are a bigger and more naïve fool than I am.

            Put it this way is Key’s life ‘worth much’ if he were found to be abusing our system in such a way while PM?

            Pretty cheap to swear on such a life, is my view.

            “Boiled down to its roots: it’s good politics, bad humanity.”

            Boiled down to its roots good politics cannot be bad humanity.

            Is it that you are meaning to say that it is ‘good political strategy’ -dishonest and deceptive as it is – doing something (anything) that will effectively fool people into voting against their own interests and get National into power again?

            This above approach is not an authentic expression of democracy – it undermines sound democracy and therefore I very much disagree that it is ‘good politics’ – it is very bad form – and very bad ‘politics’ – and I don’t see any room for viewing this as good for our society in any way.

            Why are you apologising for and minimising the real issue of this recent announcement?

            Because it gets who you want into power?

            To hell with what is really good for the greatest number of people in the long run?

            ??

  9. Ad 9

    LPrent will be looking forward to his weekly chats with Prime Minister David Cunliffe.

    The gossip won’t be as good, but the collected Labour wisdom far greater.

    • lprent 9.1

      LPrent will be looking forward to his weekly chats with Prime Minister David Cunliffe.

      Highly unlikely. I’m too damn busy to waste time chattering with charming people. Besides I’d be worried that some of that political affability would disturb my carefully cultivated abrasive personality. Ask many Labour politicians over the last few decades and they’re confirm that I seldom deign to talk to them – even when I’m working with them. After all they’re neither programmers nor activists – the two groups I tend to like spending time with, and they aren’t family.

      With Key and Slater, well… The good thing about having two arseholes rubbing against each other and you can’t tell where the brown stains came from.

  10. blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill) 10

    Looks like Judge Blackie got it correct after all when he ruled Whale Oil as ‘not a news medium’ in that court-case – it is the Nat Party propaganda site – like so many people already suspected.

  11. bad12 11

    Slippery the Prime Minister tosses us all a bone in the form of Blubber boy from ‘wail-oil’ and laughs like a loon as we all fall all over each other snarling about the filth,

    Really tho??? when has the Liar occupying the 9th floor ever once told New Zealand the truth while extricating Himself from the latest bout of self induced ‘foot’n’mouth’ disease???,

    i would suggest that the latest uttering of an excuse from Slippery is simply number one hundred and something to be added to Blips long long list of the PM’s litany…

  12. chris73 12

    So not the GCSB then :)

    • stever 12.1

      No :)

      Far worse.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 12.2

      No, a man who mocks dead children for money.

      If you can’t see the problem for National here, that’s all good with me.

      • chris73 12.2.1

        I’m loving the impotent gnashing of teeth and howls of indignation when all everyone will remember is Norman selling out the Greens principles to KDC :)

        • karol 12.2.1.1

          Ah. But just think. Next time WO breaks a sleazy politically charged story, people will be asking if he got it from Key in one of their chats.

        • stever 12.2.1.2

          Hmmm..I think you need to read the accounts of the meeting..which do exist out in the open…unlike some tea parties we saw but were not allowed to hear :)

          • chris73 12.2.1.2.1

            As Kiwiblog puts it:

            [Also of interest are the two dates that Russel Norman flew (at taxpayer expense, like Winston) to meet Dotcom. He met Dotcom on the 1st and 29th of November 2013.

            On the very same day he met him on the 1st, he attacked the Police on Radio NZ over Dotcom’s case. Shouldn’t the leader of a party that believes in transparency have revealed “Oh by the way I just met with my buddy Kim this morning, and tried to persuade him not to set up his own political party, and instead endorse the Greens”

            And then again on the 29th, when he again met Dotcom, he was again in the media talking about his case – again with no mention of his meetings, and attempt to get Dotcom to endorse the Greens instead of set up his own party.]

            and of course the Greens loved talking about Sky City deals with no mention of the deals they were doing with KDC

        • One Anonymous Bloke 12.2.1.3

          Chris73 [citation needed]

          How is policy made in the Green party? How are the leaders chosen?
          How is policy made in the National Party? How is the leader chosen?

          Was it you who described this government as a “hypocracy”?

          • chris73 12.2.1.3.1

            How is policy made in the Green party? How are the leaders chosen?

            - Like the PM (and unlike Norman) I don’t have KDCs phone number (or do I and I just forgot?) so I can’t ask him

    • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill) 12.3

      @ Chris73

      Who is to say that John Key got the info from Slater?

      JK could have passed the info that he got from the GCSB to Slater.

      • chris73 12.3.1

        Really? You still think the GCSB is involved in this?

        • weka 12.3.1.1

          Where do you think Slater got the info from chris?

          • chris73 12.3.1.1.1

            I think (like most things) the simplest explanation is the most likely:

            A. so its either the PM of NZ set the GCSB to spy on Winston Peters or something similar

            B. one or more disgruntled ex-employees or people owed money by KDC have spoken to someone whos then passed it onto Slater (or something similar)

            Considering how often the tip line gets used I’d say its B

            • One Anonymous Bloke 12.3.1.1.1.1

              Who cares? John Key has confessed his part in the mockery of dead children. Metaphorically speaking, he is about to be very slowly ripped apart by dogs, and then vultures will pick his bones clean.

              Watch and learn, Chrissy.

            • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill) 12.3.1.1.1.2

              Um – B isn’t the simplest explanation though chris, it requires a backstory ‘one or more disgruntled ex-employees.

              whereas it is already known that GCSB spy on NZers – infact wasn’t that made legal just recently?

              I’m unclear why it is such a big issue that a political leader would talk to another political leader

              …whereas Mr Key talking on a regular basis with that sleazy website operator….well that smacks of Key interfering with news-like information… i.e. propaganda….that is a big issue – big news.

              • chris73

                “I’m unclear why it is such a big issue that a political leader would talk to another political leader”

                You don’t understand why Norman asking KDC to not run and then state he’d fight against his extradition is a big issue?

                Is it Norman (allegedly) asking for KDCs support and in return saying you’ll fight for him?

                Is it Norman being on the ISC which has been dealing with KDC and the GCSB all the while Normans (allegedly) doing deals with KDC?

                Is it the Greens being scathing about deals being done with rich businessmen then going off and (allegedly) doing a deal with…a rich businessmen

                • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill)

                  Nope, that is all nonsense.

                  I guess I am simply not afflicted with the right wing projection-cum-delusional-fantasies that you are.

                  Top marks for garbled fantasy there, though, c73 – I do believe you exceeded yourself.

                  • chris73

                    So what was nonsense then?

                    • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill)

                      The lot of it – sorry if I didn’t make myself clear.

                    • McFlock

                      fuckwit, can’t you read? All of it.

                    • chris73

                      Oh I understand, you don’t like how it sounds so you dismiss it and thats cool because whats said and posted on this site changes virtually nothing but what does matter is the view of the voters and in this case I think more people will agree with my sentiments (Norman screwed up big time) then yours

                      Of course we can only wait and see what happens at the next election to see whos right

                    • McFlock

                      the clue is when even a deranged propagandist like yourself needs to use the word “allegedly”. This demonstrates that someone with an already fractious and combative relationship with reality has lack of any hope of evidence of the muck they’re shoveling.

                    • chris73

                      Well no McFlock the reason I used it was I know that if I didn’t use the phrase “allegedly” I’d get a two week holiday for besmirching Normans good name

                    • McFlock

                      Golly, so you’re actually learning how to avoid outright defaming people you don’t like.
                      Good for you.

                    • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill)

                      “Oh I understand, you don’t like how it sounds so you dismiss it and thats cool because whats said and posted on this site changes virtually nothing but what does matter is the view of the voters and in this case I think more people will agree with my sentiments (Norman screwed up big time) then yours” – Chris73

                      No, apparently you don’t understand –

                      Despite sounding like a small pig when it has been picked up; this is not why I dismiss it.

                      I dismiss it because it sounds like rubbish – the type of exaggerated, frothing at the mouth, nonsense, made up by some bored jonolist-cum-spin doctor (I do apologize but I’m having difficulty telling the difference between them these days)

                      Of course we can only wait and see what happens at the next election to see whos right

                      We already know whose ‘right’ and an election doesn’t decide between ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ , you noddy, so there you go, wrong again.

                • Murray Olsen

                  “You don’t understand why Norman asking KDC to not run and then state he’d fight against his extradition is a big issue?”

                  Any honest Kiwi politician who lubes themselves up for Washington and refuses to fight against KDC’s extradition is a big issue. It’s called national sovereignty, and despite having kidnapped half the name, NAct have no idea what it means.

                  • Paw prick

                    Sigh.
                    NZ has a extradition treaty with the US

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Which does not allow authoritarian behaviour and arbitrary rule of law, one hopes.

                    • Pascal's bookie

                      We also have laws governing the use of the GCSB.

                      We have a PM who was conveniently watching his kid play rounders in the US when the GCSB got bIll English ot signa warrant in an attempt to cover up the fact they had been breaking those laws.

                      English, the PMs chief of staff, and the GCSB all ‘forgot’ to tell the PM that this once in a decade warrant to hide the GCSB’s tracks had been signed.

                      Just one of several ‘coincidences’ that happened to keep the PM out of the loop in what turned out to be a highly political extradition, for actions that are not crimes in NZ.

                      So you can sigh your extradition treaty with the US, which you clearly don’t understand anyway, and toddle off back to laughing-at-dead-babies-land son.

                    • Murray Olsen

                      Thanks for proving my point, Mr. Prick. Now give me a case where we have extradited someone to the US and A on a civil matter.
                      Then tell me what “fruit of a poisonous tree” is.
                      Then show me the section of the extradition treaty that allows US agents to remove evidence from a Kiwi court without authorisation.

                      After that, you can sigh as much as you like.

                • framu

                  “nd then state he’d fight against his extradition is a big issue?”

                  thats just bullshit – the greens have pub;icly and unchangingly stated their position on the KDC case for ages

                  is time a tricky concept for you?

            • bad12 12.3.1.1.1.3

              Or (c), the SIS have had DotCom under surveillance all the time, knowing who goes to the Coatsville Mansion and knowing who DotCom meets when He is out and about,

              My pick is (c)…

              • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill)

                +1 bad12

              • chris73

                Sure it wasn’t the GCSB?

                • McFlock

                  well, they do have a habit of illegally spying on new zealanders, so we’d best not rule it out completely yet…

                  • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill)

                    I thought it had been made legal?

                    • chris73

                      Do you mean retrospectively changing the law? Can’t think of any party that would do that…

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Glad you are taking the creation of a legal framework for a surveillance state so co-operatively.

                      Youll find it great when a Labour Govt gets to use those same powers.

                • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill)

                  How the heck are we supposed to know which one it is? They are secret services, remember?

                • bad12

                  Yep, pretty sure, the GCSB are more involved in the electronic stuff, you know monitoring internet contacts and cell phone conversations/txts,

                  If physical observation of a premises or a person are required the SIS do the slog, i don’t know the topography around DotComs place but i could probably pick out the likely location they watch His place from in 5 or 10 minutes with some accuracy if i got a look at the area surrounding the DotCom Mansion,

                  Slippery of course is telling half the truth about the info and ‘wail-oil’s’ Blubber boy, the phone call didn’t pass info from Blubber boy to Slippery, the reverse is the case…

                  • Anne

                    i don’t know the topography around DotComs place but i could probably pick out the likely location they watch His place from in 5 or 10 minutes with some accuracy if i got a look at the area surrounding the DotCom Mansion,

                    Don’t think they have to do that anymore Bad 12. They have highly sophisticated microwave equipment they can train on any site and sit and watch the comings and goings from a remote location. The GCSB are quite capable of such activity as is no doubt the SIS. The necessity to be ‘close’ to the site under surveillance has long gone.

                    • bad12

                      Anne, i have seen the microwave system you speak of being operated, it requires line of sight to be effective and those operating it to be dressd in protective clothing,(presumably from the micro-waves), the one time i seen such an operation in progress the protective gear being worn was hilariously snow white,

                      Perhaps these days, my view was some 10 years ago, the spooks have become a bit more sophisticated and wear orange gear to blend in with the myriad tele-comms crews that pop up irregularly,

                      When following DotCom when He is not at home such gear would be pretty much useless which is why i suggest that it is the less technical SIS that has the main role in the surveillance of DotCom…

                    • Colonial Viper

                      And who says the govt services cant give people cancer. Several of the surveillance techniques revealed by Snowden involve irradiating target rooms or equipment with significant microwave and radio energy. Which has never been tested for health effects.

    • Puddleglum 12.4

      So not the GCSB then

      Hard to say.

      Slater has regular chats with John Key (Minister in charge of the GCSB) and, according to Slater:

      He described his relationship with Key as “professional … where I ask questions and he gives me answers“.

      Oddly, Key seemed to think that his regular chats involved him finding out what was on Slater’s site and what Slater was thinking about:

      Key said he regularly called Slater, who broke the story of the Len Brown affair, “to see what he’s got on his site and mind.”

      They don’t seem to communicate very well with each other – quite muddled views from them on what’s going on when they talk.

  13. Paul 13

    This is a disgraceful admission when a government leader admits his sources news from the sewer.

  14. Ron 14

    Whilst on subject of WO can anyone confirm that his recent problems with website that he made a big thing out of suggesting it was a DDOS attack was actually just himself messing up a change on his domain record and he forget about reducing his TTL on domain record way before he made the changes so the replication happened quickly
    In other words there was no DDOS attack just a snafu by Chief Blubber

    • lprent 14.1

      I’ve done that myself. But I didn’t have anything above a 3 hour (seldom have it above a small number of minutes these days to make for rapid fallbacks). I didn’t check the TTL.

      But it’d be unusual to change suppliers because of that. Unless they were changing anyway.

    • chris73 14.2

      I can confirm it wasn’t a snafu

      • andy (the other one) 14.2.1

        Do you have regular chit chats with Whaleoil?

      • Ron 14.2.2

        Elucidate? please

        • chris73 14.2.2.1

          The reason has been answered on his website

          • McFlock 14.2.2.1.1

            So your ability to “confirm” is based on a story from WO?

            Shit, that’s like taking Colin Craig and going too far the other way. The infantile panty-sniffing sleaze-merchant stalker said that he didn’t make a mistake, so it must be true. Good luck with that.

      • Tracey 14.2.3

        Being a parent doesnt mean you are a teacher. Knowing what a law means doesnt make you a lawyer.

        Can you post your evidence

  15. idlegus 15

    the nats are accusing the greens & labour of been paid to ask key questions, maybe key/nats have been paying whaleoil to publish articles…

    • chris73 15.1

      The difference is theres a time line of Norman visiting KDC and then stating they’d fight the extradition whereas theres still no proof of the Nats paying Whaleoil

      • North 15.1.1

        You’re still not happy about it though are you Chris…….in your heart of hearts…….you know, your idol…….slumming it ? With “feral”…….you’d rather it not be so what ?

        • chris73 15.1.1.1

          You could exactly the same thing about Norman making the pilgrimage to KDC, kowtowing to a millionaire businessmen, dealing all sorts of nudge-nudge wink-wink deals.

          The Greens are all sanctimonious about National doing deals like Sky City, the left love going on about the hollowmen, T. Mallard was banging on about american bagmen and yet Norman gets a whiff of power and all the goodwill the Greens have built up has been blown out

          The Greens are just like every other political party in NZ, they’d sell out in a second just to get into power

          • idlegus 15.1.1.1.1

            the difference is this has blown up in keys face, & proves the media is right wing, & basically anything you say chris73 has been proven again & again to be BS. (tv3/gower didnt run this story at all…they cant protect key forever)

            • chris73 15.1.1.1.1.1

              Really? The story was Norman doing a deal with KDC and thats still current then the story was JK using the GCSB to spy on Winston and thats been proven false and now the story is JK talks to bloggers?

              Wow the left must be desperate (well yes I know they’re always desperate) but if you think spraying and hoping is the way to go then you’re going to be dissapointed

              • idlegus

                emphasis on ‘story’, yep. no, im not hoping it will go away, key is in deep shit, talking to ‘blogsters’, lol!

              • Crunchtime

                The article doesn’t mention Russell Norman. It’s an interview with John Key. You’re obviously ok about making stuff up about Russell Norman, while accepting everything that Slater says as gospel. Making you a reliable source of truth. NAAAAHHT.

      • andy (the other one) 15.1.2

        Did you imagine that, like above?

  16. North 16

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/9723130/Looks-like-Slater-is-Keys-Peters-source

    How ferally verily instructive…….scum slops up together. Great look for the mana of the office of prime minister what ?

    What a royal fuck up…….given SlaterPorn imploring Winston to tell the truth for “once in his life” (see article), can you see Winston ever going with a National Party led by ShonKey Python ? Damn…….this is getting more visceral than Toryana Torya re Helen.

    Hang on…….what about a National Party not led by ShonKey Python ?

    Who’s put a price on whose head here ?

    • Ron 16.1

      Winston for PM??!! he is really a Tory at heart

      Hang on…….what about a National Party not led by ShonKey Python ?

  17. Crunchtime 17

    Well well well, the cat’s out of the bag.

    Key confirms he slums it with offensive misogynist hateful muckraking assholes. What a surprise.

    • chris73 17.1

      Well well well, the cat’s out of the bag.

      Norman confirms hes willing to sell NZ out to someone convicted of computer fraud and data espionage, insider trading and embezzlement. What a surprise.

      Fixed it for you.

      • McFlock 17.1.1

        nah, see the first version was an accurate depiction of reality.

      • framu 17.1.2

        “Norman confirms ”

        confirms what exactly?!

        the bit you keep forgetting is your basing everything on a single accusation from an opponent who is neck deep in his own problems on the same issue

  18. the pigman 18

    Stuff is very good at burying its stories from even 24 hours ago…

    But didn’t Keyes say something yesterday along the lines of “the person I heard about the visits from couldn’t be said to be affiliated with the National party” or words to that effect?

    And it’s Cameron Slater… the son of the former National Party president, John Slater… ?

    Hmm.. where’s the hysterical, spit-taking laughter smiley when you need it?

  19. Sanctuary 19

    Now we know what Slater’s “tipline” is.

    • andy (the other one) 19.1

      Key also talked about bloggers plural. I am sure that Key/Eade/Whaleoil and Farrar talk daily.

      Farrar used to work in the Nats research unit…Seems he is still on the internal mailing list.

      • Pascal's bookie 19.1.1

        Lol. His office is in the same building as Nat hq.

        • andy (the other one) 19.1.1.1

          Jeabus..

          I have to say, Farrar is good. He uses the same bullshit as teh Herald. Bury the truth stuff below the fold. He always post a massively long screed when the nats are in trouble, banking on the fact that the drones will not read beyond his first paragraph of lies and innuendo. Then comment accordingly like a conga line of stupid.

  20. Polish Pride 20

    Wow! I see the Left vs Right political paradigm will remain alive and well for many decades to come due to a complete and utter failure of either side to bother to take the time to understand what it is that the other side actually want and why.
    Truly sad as it will simply mean neither side will get what it is that they really want for the foreseeable future.
    Whats sadder is that when you read some of the vile comments on here one begins to see quite clearly that on some level there isn’t a great deal of difference between posters on either site.

    • McFlock 20.1

      it’s okay, robots will save us. /sarc

      • Polish Pride 20.1.1

        Yeah McFlock I guess we could just keep doing things the exact same way we have for the last 100 years and expect a different result….. and you can continue to whinge and moan about all of the problems you see from the comfort of your keyboard because afterall if your not prepared to look at change then are you really anything more than a whinger and a moaner in the bigger scheme of things….?

        There’s plenty of guys just like you over on Whaleoil too.

        • McFlock 20.1.1.1

          I look at realistic change, not fantasy.

          Maybe in another few hundred years we’ll be close to your ideal – then we have to figure out how to satisfy the people who want something other than what your slide-rule says they should want. Because they’ll be the majority.

          • Polish Pride 20.1.1.1.1

            I think perhaps its you that’s not ready for that magnitude of change.
            You say you look at realistic change.. What? by commenting on a left wing blog and preaching to the converted!?
            You’re not about change.. You’re all about staying in your comfort zone.

            The stuff I and others like me are talking about can be proven to be the best system for every single individual and the planet itself using systems analysis. It also through the same theory disproves Capitalism.

            • McFlock 20.1.1.1.1.1

              … because commenting here is the only thing I do?

              That depth of analysis is exactly why you’re in a dreamworld, no better than morrissey or philU.

              • Morrissey

                That depth of analysis is exactly why you’re in a dreamworld, no better than morrissey or philU.

                Could you back up your statement that I am “in a dreamworld”?

                Thanks for that, my scholarly friend.

                • McFlock

                  I’m not your friend, guy.

                  Why would I bother either linking to arguments we had only three or four months ago, or repeating the exhaustive process of demonstrating that what you have said more recently is merely a dadaesque caricature of reality? You’ll only paper over it with extreme cognitive dissonance (yet again), probably as a method of avoiding the fact that you’re not the genius leader of the modern revolutionary zeitgeist.

                  • Professor Longhair

                    “Why would I bother either linking to arguments we had only three or four months ago?”

                    TRANSLATION: This chap is unable to argue his case.

                    • McFlock

                      which chap – me?

                      The point was that we’ve only just finished an extremely long argument to demonstrate to morrissey’s satisfaction that morrisseys “accurate” “transcripts” turned out to be neither accurate nor transcripts. Now he’s apparently forgotten all about that, so we’re expected to repeat the process from scratch? Or I should trawl through each of our comments until I find it, at which point we will still repeat the process?

                      I love a pointless argument as much as the next chap (possibly more than), but I prefer different ones rather than repeating the same one over and over again, weeks apart.

                  • Morrissey

                    This fellow’s attacks on me have been repeatedly exposed as spurious, dishonest, and driven by nothing more than politically motivated rancour. This all stems, I would remind readers, from my calling him on his craven support for the brutal campaign of lies aimed at, first, Julian Assange, then at Bradley Manning and Edward Snowden.

                    I am happy to post up any of the arse-kickings I have dealt out to him over the last few years, but readers who are interested in seeing someone out of his depth get a spanking (of the non-salacious variety) should peruse the most recent….
                    http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-23012014/#comment-761727

                    Professor Longhair summed up our friend’s predicament nicely this morning: “This chap is unable to argue his case.”

                    • McFlock

                      “Arse kicking”?

                      That would be the one where you equated calling Snowden an “IT drone” with taking active part in a genocide.

                      You’re in a dreamworld.

                    • Morrissey

                      “Arse kicking”?
                      Humiliation, comeuppance, manhandling, rogering—call it what you will.

                      That would be the one where you equated calling Snowden an “IT drone” with taking active part in a genocide.
                      Not quite right. Again. As you know perfectly well, I placed his (and your) craven, credulous, unquestioning acceptance of the official lies peddled by the Washington/Whitehall axis on a continuum that, in another context, includes the obedient wielding of machetes against designated state “enemies”. Your affectation of outrage at that suggestion lacks credibility; I do not believe that either you or he would have resisted THAT particular government campaign if you had been a couple of obedient and self-deceiving Hutus liable to be killed if you resisted the calls, instead of a couple of obedient and self-deceiving Kiwis under no threat whatsoever.

                      You’re in a dreamworld.
                      I did not dream up your viciousness or your hypocrisy. They are on permanent record, much to your shame.

              • Polish Pride

                “… because commenting here is the only thing I do?”

                and the other things you do are…..?

                • McFlock

                  … in real life.

                  And no, I’m not going to print out my liberal curriculum vitae for you to judge. 1) it’s unique to me, and can therefore identify me; 2) you’ll just say I should sponsor more starving kids or something; a 3) I don’t actually have to justify my existence and my choices to you.

                  Funnily enough, #3 is pretty much what your system would demand I do on a daily basis: both announce and justify my resource uses for the “scientific” system to evaluate and grant or deny.

                  • Polish Pride

                    Not at all McFlock.
                    It would system designed to work for each and every individual. The whole premise behind it is that the goal is to have the system work for Man and to enable him to be happy.
                    An out their example to illustrate the point would be that if there is demand for super yachts, some would be built and put in the harbour for people to book and use.
                    The fact that you can see potential issues and interpret things differently I see as a very good thing because if nothing else you know what you don’t like in a system.
                    If you think more about the things that you do want then this should be fed into how a Resource Based Economy would take shape over time.
                    Afterall I don’t think anyone myself included would like to live in a system where you have to justify your existence in order to get resources. In fact I think it would be vitally important to ensure that this doesn’t happen.
                    This should be a system for the people supported by government and not a system for government to control the people as we have now.

                    • McFlock

                      Afterall I don’t think anyone myself included would like to live in a system where you have to justify your existence in order to get resources.

                      that’s not what I said. I said one would have to justify their request for resources.

                      basically, the problem of resource distribution is one of scarcity. People want more than is being produced, and possibly need more than is being produced. Let’s say there are communal superyachts that can be booked – sooner or later somebody will want a long booking to sail around the world. That booking needs to be balanced against the daytrippers. Who does that balancing? People. So you get at the very least the requirement for a large bureaucracy and planning office that is imbued with great power, and at the worst you get myriad opportunities for corruption. Or if machines do the balancing, you get a problem where the logical solution might not be the humane solution (medical care, for example). So it needs to be overruled by people, and you’re back to corruption.

                      And then you get fashion, where the desire is for off-plan goods, so the system produces those arbitrary things and because of that the goods are passe and the fashion moves to something else.

                      My preference is for a system that provides needs and rights and leaves the rest up to the people theselves to provide.

                    • Polish Pride

                      No justification for the majority of resources just by and large there isn’t now under the current system.
                      If you want enriched uranium or C4 then you’d probably have to justify your request for those resources.

                      Believe it or not I don’t actually think we are too far apart in our thinking.
                      Having the system designed to work for mankind and to serve people means that diversity and creativity is encouraged and the tools made readily available for this to happen.
                      This is certainly not about the system churning out one size fits all products or cars, TVs or whatever.
                      Imagine it more like trademe or amazon where you can order what you want but without having to pay. The premise would be to have very short planning lead times like under Capitalism but without the profit motive or planned obsolescence. You could have design portals or you could go to a designer, engineer or architect who could design what you want and have the system build it. Sustainability would be a key part of the process so design would change fundamentally for many products. New technology comes out for televisions…rather than getting rid of the old one and getting a whole new one you might just order certain inter-changeable parts that are designed to be easily swapped in and out.
                      Scarcity becomes less and less of an issue in fact you will get to the point where (and there will be exceptions) that through good design and encouraging innovation you get to the point where we find sustainable ways to produce nearly everything. At that point Resource Scarcity becomes a thing of the past.

                      The example you have come back with on the Superyacht example is great and is pretty much where I am now with many things. The question is that in knowing what we don’t want, what is the solution that eliminates these issues? That’s the sort of thing that needs to be figured out. But its a bigger discussion that should involve more people. In my experience there is always an acceptable solution to any problem, you just have to find it.

                      “My preference is for a system that provides needs and rights and leaves the rest up to the people themselves to provide.”
                      I agree with this and this is the point I’d want to transition to from where we are today.
                      I would see the system being developed/evolved overtime to serve Mankind more and more with the primary goal to enable man to be happy and over time find solutions that enable more and more to be free from having to work. I don’t expect this to happen in my lifetime but I do see it being possible to change direction so that we are on a path towards it.

                      A key premise behind this is that people should have the right to live their lives by and large how they want to provided they do no harm to others and are mindful of their impact on the environment.

                    • McFlock

                      On the one hand I’m seeing things like the star trek replicators, where you go “give me food” and it will instantly produce a meal. But then with the sustainability thing, you’re talking about folk swapping internal parts of tvs?

                      Frankly, if you can produce goods on an “as desired” basis, you don’t need sustainability. Maybe recycle bins for no longer wanted goods (i.e. you chuck your gen2 TV in one end of the replicator, it gets stripped into component bits, then outputs a gen3 TV), but that would be it.

                      But we’re very very far aways from that (3d printers are promising, but won’t be the elixir of eternal society for a time yet).

            • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill) 20.1.1.1.1.2

              …er…yeah… Polish Pride, if you really think that you have found the answer to all our problems I strongly recommend finding a way of communicating that more persuasively than “if you don’t agree with me or understand the obscure comments I make you are not ‘ready’ for the brilliant change that I herald”

              That really just sounds like a very egotistical, divisive and vile type of a comment that is going to put people off what you have to offer.

              • McFlock

                The funny thing is that I’m really a big fan of systems-oriented analysis and design. Can’t get enough of it. But one of the problems in recent history is when folks decide they can run society that way.

                • Polish Pride

                  Systems Analysis isn’t designed to run anything and shouldn’t be used to do so.
                  It is however designed to take any system, identify what is failing within it and why. It is then used to determine how the system should work. It is essentially for lack of a better explanation, a diagnostic tool.
                  The key though is to determine the purpose of the system and in this particular case, who the system is for.
                  In my view it is for everyone on the planet.
                  The goal…..happiness
                  The best thing I have found for this is Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs (not the methodology behind but just the contents of his pyramid).
                  Compare Capitalism against this criteria and it becomes easy to see just how pathetically it performs for a large percentage of the worlds population.
                  I have had a lot of fun on Whale oil with this as it is impossible for R wingers to formulate a valid argument against

                  • McFlock

                    Capitalism doesn’t work (agreed), therefore … what?

                    Who runs the system, what acts as a means of exchange or resource measurement, and how is that data collected, collated, analyzed and distributed for further planning and production by the system?

              • Polish Pride

                fair enough. certainly not how I intended to come accross but can see how it would have been taken that way on re-reading it.
                thanks.

                • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill)

                  @ Polish Pride,

                  Thanks for such a decent response, PP. I am very pleased to see you and McFlock have gotten into a more constructive conversation. It is very interesting reading.

                  One thought re the left/right divide – From reading previous comments of yours, it may be that you view the difference between the two ‘sides’ as that of ‘to tax’ or ‘not to tax’ – however a major defining difference for me is not that at all – it is that the left tend to be more ‘people before profits’ focussed whereas the right appear to hold profits as the pivotal thing to aim for (with the belief that as profits rise people issues get addressed).

                  This difference in interpretation may trip you up – because if you put forward the idea that ‘both sides are wrong’ you may be objected to on the grounds that you are saying ‘people before profits’ is wrong – which, having read some of your comments here and elsewhere, does not appear to be what you are suggesting at all.

                  • Polish Pride

                    yes very interesting point. That is definitely not what I am trying to say. I am going further and saying that profit is an unnecessary construct in a system that is for mankind (and it can be proven through systems analysis. In fact the need for profit and money has reached a point where on a number of fronts it is holding society back. Profit can be shown to be the reason for much of the environmental destruction we have in the world along with War, Human trafficking and child pornography. It can be shown to be a big part of the reason that we have an obesity problem in the west while people in some third world countries barely have enough to eat.

                    The fact that you have put it that way is quite good. From spending a lot of time on WO I see a distinct difference between the R wing ideaology of profit before people which drives concepts such as the ‘trickle down effect’ and the right wing voters many of whom have worked hard to get to where they are and just want to pay as little tax as they can resulting in wanting smaller government and to move away from policy that encourages a section of society to become used to living off the state. It doesn’t matter whether their concerns are based in reality or not. It is their belief and as a result they will always vote for National who do pretty much believe in Profit before people. As a result those are the kinds of policies you get whenever National is in power.
                    The Left voters and the Left wing ideaology view of people before profit is pretty much the same message.
                    The problem for both sides is that there is an almost equally opposing amount of voters that will vote for policy that is in direct opposition to what they want.

                    At the risk of oversimplifying it, When Labour gets in and starts to implement policy that is people before profit, they do this using Taxation and redistribution of wealth. (Ignoring the fact that the Right do exactly the same using different mechanisms). This is of course the complete opposite to what the R wing voter wants. Eventually National are voted back in etc. etc.

                    So it is not that either side are wrong (well more accurately it just doesn’t matter) it is the fact that it is impossible for either side to achieve what they want to. At least not under the current system. This is because there is always an equal and opposing force voting against for a party who will implement policy that is the opposite of what they want.
                    Under a different system both can have what they are after. That is if they are prepared to start looking at things a little differently.

                    The thing is the best argument I have had against an RBE type system in 2-3 years of commenting on W/O is ‘show me a country where it is working’ says a lot in my view and makes it on that basis alone worth a closer look.

                    I would love to be proven wrong on my thoughts on this system (I would dearly love to be proven wrong) because at that point I could go back to just living my life and I’d could just ignore politics altogether.

          • Polish Pride 20.1.1.1.2

            then we have to figure out how to satisfy the people who want something other than what your slide-rule says they should want. Because they’ll be the majority.

            Thought I should address this point because its an important one.

            I have no slide rule. Based on the systems analysis the system should be designed to meet the needs and wants of the individual provided no harm is done to others and it is done in the most sustainable manner possible.
            Its about setting up the system to work for mankind rather than the other way around.

            • McFlock 20.1.1.1.2.1

              You really should watch this series: Pandora’s Box, A Fable From the Age of Science.

              Six episodes. From the youtube description “The episodes deal, in order, with communism in The Soviet Union, systems analysis and game theory during the Cold War, economy in the United Kingdom during the 1970s, the insecticide DDT, Kwame Nkrumah’s leadership in Ghana during the 1950s and 1960s and the history of nuclear power”.

              • Polish Pride

                You do know that RBE is a very very different system to Communism. But we are talking about overarching systems so there will be some similarities. There are arguably however more similarities in key areas between Capitalism and Communism than there are between Capitalism and RBE or Communism and RBE.
                Big Government is a good example of this.

                • McFlock

                  Well, actually there doesn’t seem to be that much difference in application, but that wasn’t the point anyway.

                  The point of the entire series was that overly scientific approaches to macro-level issues tend to regard that which cannot be calculated as irrelevant, and that then leads to major problems further down the line, and the end result might or might not be better than the previous situation. Couple that with the realities of people, and unforeseen failures are practically a certainty.

                  • Polish Pride

                    I will watch it (quite interested now)
                    But am interested in who you think the System we live under should be for and even just as importantly what the purpose of the system should be.
                    I have no doubt there will be a number of challenges and issues that arise but like with any system we need to find ways of dealing with them.
                    Although science, technology and automation will solve many problems, I am under no illusion that it will solve them all.

                    Perhaps the fact that I often use RBE as the system to describe what we should have is possibly a little misleading especially for someone who has a better handle than most on what that means (something I’ll keep in mind for the future).
                    I guess that to better illustrate what I am referring to It would be RBE designed to work for you and what you want in a sustainable manner. Anything you as a reasonable individual wouldn’t want to have in there simply shouldn’t be.

                    When you first start looking at this and look at where we are now, it will seem stupidly unrealistic. But as you start to think more about it and how you would like such a system to work for you (and others), it becomes a very clear (more so over time) that the path that we are on currently will not give us the outcomes we want and the reasons why that is.

                    • McFlock

                      The objectives of the system aren’t really in dispute by anyone, from neolibs to communists to folk in between to folk who think they are outside that continuum.

                      Maximise “good” (generally happiness, satisfaction, but can involve other ideals of mental and physical development), minimise “bad”.

                      What you consistently avoid is the detail of how you will achieve that objective. Communism followed “from each according to his ability, to each according to his need”. Capitalism trusts the market to sort out needs and desires. Both fail. How will your resource-based economy be different to communism, and how will it be administered, and how will it avoid the pitfalls of previous systems?

                    • Polish Pride

                      Well we might have had a somewhat rocky start to this conversation. But this is a question I have been putting out in various forms for a long time. You are the first person to give me an answer and a very good one at that so thanks.

                      I will think more about it but off the top of my head my initial thought on how it different to communism. It recognizes and serves the needs and wants of the individual as opposed to everything being geared to be for the good of the state. The state is largely their to ensure that those needs and wants of each individual are served. This is not as difficult as it sounds and by and large this diversity is met under Capitalism. But then because of the monetary system as you will know people profit from more insidious things, war, human trafficking, child pornography etc. etc. Add to that the number of people who don’t even have basic needs met…..
                      I think this focus on and building the system around the needs and wants of people (including catering for their diverse needs and wants is a big part of how it will avoid the pitfalls of both systems.
                      On the how it will be administered. This is where I am at now and what I am trying to work through. Unfortunately it is a much bigger discussion and actually needs input from guys like yourself who can get their head around different concepts very quickly. I can’t get past an ERP system on a massive scale (from my IT background).

                      From a governance point of view I see a robust constitution designed to protect peoples rights and enshrine the goals of the system in legislation.
                      I’d see this backed by a Senate type function and some form of direct democracy (but need to find a way to avoid mob rule). The Senate is in my head pretty much limited to ensuring any legislation adheres to the constitution and may go part way to dealing with the mob rule issue.

                      I can pretty much explain how I’d see any part of our current society working (eg. buying food from supermarkets with self serve checkouts and automatic reordering). But you don’t see what you don’t see just like your reply re super yachts. Its at that point that more minds wanting positive change would be good to solve some of these issues.
                      After all you can only build so many super yachts before the harbor is full. Then you are back to how do you deal with what is essentially a limited resource without reintroducing money and having a solution that is deemed acceptable by the people within the society.

                      One more thing – over time I do see the issue of resource scarcity becoming less and less as future generations become more comfortable with not having to own everything provided it is available to use as and when they need it.

                    • McFlock

                      It recognizes and serves the needs and wants of the individual as opposed to everything being geared to be for the good of the state.

                      That’s what the idea behind commun;sm was: from each according to their ability, to each according to their need. And right up until the end, the planners thought they were handling it.

                      Automated resupply and ordering goods is fine, but the test is not on whether the system can order things. The test is whether the system can supply things as needed, with a lower priority on as wanted. This especially applies to non-universal needs: aircon in warm areas vs down jackets for cold areas, for example.

                      It seems to me that a UBI, for example, would largely take care of the needed part, and the resource allocation would be distributed largely via the private sector rather than using a central system of ordering.

                      If the UBI and distributed planning is a valid iteration of your RBE, I suggest that rather than being a new paradigm your RBE (from a certain point of view) is simply the collective term for both centrally-planned (commun;sm) and distributed-planned (capitalist and anarchist) economies.

                      If the RBE needs to be centrally planned, I’m not sure there is much of a difference between your approach and the dreams of at least the first implementers of the big-C. Which then raises the question of how your plan will avoid the pitfalls that they fell into – power concentrated into the hands of the administrators and subsequently breeding corruption, as well as the lag between current needs and wants of each individual of the population and the ability of the system to fulfill them.

                    • Polish Pride

                      Thats where I probably need greater minds than mine….

                      “If the UBI and distributed planning is a valid iteration of your RBE, I suggest that rather than being a new paradigm your RBE (from a certain point of view) is simply the collective term for both centrally-planned (commun;sm) and distributed-planned (capitalist and anarchist) economies.”

                      I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head as yes UBI would be a valid iteration
                      When I have explained the thinking in the past, I have put it in the most simple way I could think of and explained it as follows:

                      Imagine the system we have now. Imagine your life as it is now. Then remove the money.
                      You still go to the supermarket for food, the gas station for petrol, and so on.

                      It sounds like a ridiculous oversimplification but their is probably some truth in that I am not talking about shifting everything under government.
                      I think that the transition should look to make the move as seamlessly as possible, not recreating existing services but transitioning key industries first with contracts for those who transition that enable things to resort back to the status quo should it fail.
                      example farmers given equipment to automate their farms,
                      Houses built for workers to run the farm
                      Farmer works six months on six months off. Worker Works six months on six months off.
                      If possible everything they want is supplied

                      To help enable this
                      I did envisage construction of manufacturing plants set up to be as automated as possible. Paid for by the companies using it where the selling point initially becomes the elimination of wages altogether. Add to this management and maintenance of the plant in exchange for free product produced from the plant.
                      The thing I find interesting about this is if implemented and up and running how do other countries compete against something that is free.
                      You would probably find that the other countries would be forced to follow suit.
                      Add 3D printing technology into the mix and invest heavily into advancing it and the switch becomes easier and easier.

                      Set up trade agreements with countries we want goods and services from but trade in resources. Our primary industry products in return for electronic goods for example.

                      Sorry am probably rambling a bit.
                      I do agree that UBI would take care of the need and be an easier transition

                      Even if you ignore everything I have said and put it in the maybe one day basket…..
                      The systems analysis can be used to prove Left wing theory and UBI (it also opens the door to the world I am talking about) and it should be used because it is pretty much irrefutable.
                      The only problem is that if it involves increased taxes there is a section of voters that will vote against it and we are back to being stuck in the L vs R paradigm.
                      If a long term plan was put up along side it showing a potential future without taxes where needs and wants are met without taxes, I think you’d also get buy in from many on the Right. But there is a lot that would need to be done before things could get to that point.

                    • McFlock

                      You genuinely think that the transition to a cashless, shortage-less society involves regression to a barter economy?

                      While there are shortages, you need a means of exchange. That’s money. As for asking companies to cooperate in their own demise – that ain’t gonna happen.

                      But the real problem is scarcity – your system works fine as long as there is no scarcity in needs or wants. When do you think that will happen? Timeframe. Because I think it’ll be centuries, if at all. And as soon as you have scarcity, you have people looking to get stuff at the expense of others.

                    • Polish Pride

                      “You genuinely think that the transition to a cashless, shortage-less society involves regression to a barter economy?”

                      We would certainly have that as an option as a means of dealing with countries still using Capitalism that we want products or raw materials from. Its either that or you retain a monetary system for these sorts of dealings and it may be simpler to do that. What ever option we need have something as we will be dealing with countries not ready for a gift economy and they certainly aren’t likely to give us the resources we want for free. I do think that barter to solve this particular problem gives us an opportunity to get more in return for our primary product than we’d get using a monetary system. Besides I reckon that if you have made the decision to transition then there will be much greater risk of your transition failing by retaining a monetary system.

                      “While there are shortages, you need a means of exchange. That’s money. As for asking companies to cooperate in their own demise – that ain’t gonna happen.”
                      But the real problem is scarcity – your system works fine as long as there is no scarcity in needs or wants. When do you think that will happen? Timeframe. Because I think it’ll be centuries, if at all. And as soon as you have scarcity, you have people looking to get stuff at the expense of others.

                      Thats the thing though, What true shortages are you faced with in this day and age. If anything as a society we have massive overproduction and massive waste. But I don’t think we have any true and genuine shortages anymore. If there was it might just mean having a different mechanism for dealing with that particular product (Library type system)… at least until any shortage is resolved.
                      I accept the part about companies but you are not going to lay it out like that for them. You are simply giving them a proposition thats too good to refuse.
                      They supply the raw materials and we will build the product using automated systems. No wages, No cost, No Tax.

                      Small and Medium Business owners would be even easier to transition with the right incentives..

                      As for when I think it will happen – when Gen Y become older and more interested in and active in politics. Thats when I think change will begin.
                      I do think UBI will come first though before then.

    • karol 20.2

      I think you will find the level of misogyny, homophobia, racism, bennie-bashing on the other site – the sleazy smears, etc, differs a lot from this site.

      There are right wingers I’d listen to well before the manipulations of WO.

  21. Brian 21

    Hard to be certain which of them is scraping the bottom of the barrel.

  22. BM 22

    Good o’l whale oil, the way he gets all you lefties leaping up and down tsk tsk tsking,waggling your fingers and getting all pious really makes me laugh.

    It’s like a weasel in a hen house, keep up the good work.

    • Hayden 22.1

      Yeah, I know, it’s almost as if there’s something slightly distasteful about profiting from dead babies and sexual abuse victims.

      • BM 22.1.1

        Not that I’d really care if he was making coin of corpse felching.
        What are the incidents you’re referring to?

        • Hayden 22.1.1.1

          I don’t know about the first one as I don’t read that shit any more (although others apparently do) but for the second one he revealed the name of at least one sexual abuser, and by association his victim.

          • BM 22.1.1.1.1

            Is that the one to do with “The Comedian”.

            • McFlock 22.1.1.1.1.1

              If you already know of a specific case where WO outed a sexual abuse survivor, you don’t need further cases to validate the point.

              Especially in a public forum.

        • Psycho Milt 22.1.1.2

          Not that I’d really care if he was making coin of corpse felching.

          So, if I understand this correctly, in BM-world (not a pleasant-sounding place at all, now I think about it), corpse-felching = no problem, vaguely left-wing politics = moral turpitude. Explains a lot – thanks for sharing.

          • fender 22.1.1.2.1

            BM doesn’t give a shit, he’s too much like Slater to recognise the toxicity that offends any normal person. Having the PM confess to being so cosy with this scum will just be extra encouragement for the warped and toxic throwbacks.

            On the plus side there will be many people concerned that they voted for someone who is so up to his neck in sewerage. Key is mistaken if he thinks that the “most popular blog” is the most admired blog.

            • Ben 22.1.1.2.1.1

              I agree. Key has cunningly managed for 5 years through smiles, BS, bluster and spin, but now he seems to be getting rattled, slipping dramatically in his right wing sewerage slime and being found out slowly and steadily by the general voters.

              • fender

                That video is one of his better displays of the slippery, evasive “would have to check my files” bullshit efforts that confirms he thinks it’s all a game.

    • joe90 22.2

      Yup, good o’l oil, another scalp to add to his everything he touches turns to shit collection.

    • the pigman 22.3

      Laugh it up BM!

      Meanwhile I noticed a “wee shift” in the ipredict market following the revelation today with the probability of there being a National PM after the 2014 election dropping by 5%.

      Clearly your mates aren’t enjoying this filthy relationship being eviscerated in the media for all to see.

  23. Ben 23

    COMMENT OF THE DAY Re KEY and SLATER:

    Iprent : “The good thing about having two arseholes rubbing against each other and you can’t tell where the brown stains came from”

    • bad12 23.1

      It’s actually quite an insightful comment, which of the aresholes leaked the brown over whom first is really the question,

      Slippery the Prime Minister known through-out the land for being stolidly truthful and honest,(yes of course i am taking the piss), or the scum of the internet Blubber boy,

      i pick Slippery to have handed this particular rancid pile of stench to Blubber boy and a number of others to ‘leak’,

      It’s all part of National’s campaign of generating fear and loathing leading up to election 2014, part 1 of this being the Tolley attack on Metiria Turei which failed miserably after the truth of Mets real lifestyle was revealed,

      i also pick that the SIS didn’t tell Slippery directly who DotCom had contact with, when these things are set up a system of intermediaries is established so as to keep the likes of Slippery at arms length,

      my guess is that once armed with the info Slippery or one of the minions from the 9th floor have started the leak to various media and if Slippery is as cozy with Blubber boy as He claims then it would have been He who picked up the phone to tip the blogger of sewerage off…

  24. tricledrown 24

    Key consults with 2x convicted criminal.

  25. irascible 25

    One now asks “Can the dots be connected between Key, Slater, Palino and the Auckland Five in the quest to destroy Len Brown and the Auckland mayoralty?” or is this drawing a long bow in the quest to track the dirty trickery we have senn in NZ politics lately?

    • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill) 25.1

      Doesn’t seem like anything is too horrible to assume about this piece-of-shit sham of a government – they are an utter disgrace.

    • McFlock 25.2

      It is an interesting question – key talks with him frequently, there does seem to be a mutual exchange of political information, so what did the convicted slimebag tell the should-be-convicted slimebag about their slime-job?

    • Ben 25.3

      While your assumption is perfectly reasonable and highly likely to be correct, I think the idiot Brown destroyed himself and his reputation by wallowing in filth and filthy carry ons including compromising himself with the crooked corporates..

      • McFlock 25.3.1

        A bit like key’s damaged his reputation by being in cahoots with a sleaze-merchant.

        Even Act had the sense to not let Steve Crow be a member.

        • Ben 25.3.1.1

          I think ACT had an MP who was making money from a brothel. Remember that? She was a female MP. I know prostitution is legal. But still, yuk, for an MP and a political party!

          • McFlock 25.3.1.1.1

            lol nah, she just owned the building and was the model for the billboard (scary eyes…)

            • Ben 25.3.1.1.1.1

              Wonder what her name is,

              They also had other shady discredited characters as MPs, such as Prebble, Douglas, Brash, Garret, Huata and Banks!

          • Psycho Milt 25.3.1.1.2

            I think ACT had an MP who was making money from a brothel. Remember that? She was a female MP. I know prostitution is legal. But still, yuk, for an MP and a political party.

            “Yuk?” As in, “Yuk – what kind of respectable person would allow themselves to be associated with filthy, disgusting, pox-ridden whores?” There’s a ‘yuk’ factor in that alright, I’m just not feeling it for Calvert (well, not in this particular context at least).

            • Colonial Viper 25.3.1.1.2.1

              MPs probably shouldnt make an income from gun running or from prostitutes.

              • It’s no secret that I’m not feeling the love or sexy times for ACT or it’s MPs, but, to be fair, Calvert didn’t actually own the brothel She simply leased the premises to the business. And allowed her eyes to be used for the brothel’s advertising.

                But nothing else. (As far as I’m aware?!).

                I concur with ‘Viper – the corporate arms trade is immoral.

          • SHG (not Colonial Viper) 25.3.1.1.3

            I know prostitution is legal. But still, yuk

            Demonising sexworkers, yep we got ourselves a Colin Craig fan here

  26. mike 26

    yep,who cares if JK talks to a blogger sometimes. The story here is that Winston Last is a lying snake, and just sits around, making shit up like this great “GCSB” conspiracy. HAHAHAHA. Good one Winston, you fucking LOSER. MISSED THE MARK AGAIN! Go swill another sherry, you nasty drunk.

    • McFlock 26.1

      What lie has winston told this time?
      cite pls.

    • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill) 26.2

      Not at all the way I see things mike
      Sounds and looks like JK is under stress

      Who are you trying to kid?

    • fender 26.3

      “yep, who cares if JK talks to a blogger sometimes.”

      This isn’t just a blogger, this is one of the most despised creeps in the country!

    • Pascal's bookie 26.4

      “The story here is that Winston Last is a lying snake, and just sits around, making shit up like this great “GCSB” conspiracy. HAHAHAHA. Good one Winston, you fucking LOSER. MISSED THE MARK AGAIN! Go swill another sherry, you nasty drunk.”

      That’s pretty harsh language for John Key’s next great hope. Haven;t noticed Key saying he’s reconsidered being opem to dealing with Winston, but given the company Key keeps, I guess it’s not surprising. Can’t recall Winston making jokes about recently dead babies to get hits on a blog.

      • idlegus 26.4.1

        gower on thursday said the next govt was likely to be a nz first/nat govt, was bloody bizarre how he slipped that in.

    • Tracey 26.5

      The wo readers keep bringing up kdc convictions to show how despicable he is. They seem to be oblivious to slater’s

  27. North 27

    Happy Snappy Chappy Mike. You realise of course that at the very best for ShonKey Python, the “fucking LOSER” Winston Peters is the man who OWNS ShonKey Python’s prospects of getting a third term. Suck on that, you nasty punk.

  28. well I never 28

    Oh Mike, you are really embarrassing yourself now mate.

  29. middxkea 29

    Lets all remember Slater photoshopped Helen Clark on to pornographic images
    He also photoshopped a pornographic image on a young labour activist here.
    This was in the days when he and Farrar were as thick as thieves ,Kiwiblog was at it mysoginist worst. and Slaters blog was all guns and porn

    These are the bloggers that the MSM now use and quote.
    And now the PM is associated with.
    I am appalled

  30. jcuknz 30

    Just testing

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