The sound of feet dragging: after Bazley

Written By: - Date published: 11:04 am, November 7th, 2013 - 140 comments
Categories: accountability, crime, john key, Judith Collins, national/act government, police, slippery - Tags: ,

Recent revelations show that much more needs to be done to prevent and respond to the trauma resulting from sexual assault and rape.  It has also been a difficult time for many people following the reports and engaging in discussions. Ally Garrett provides a very helpful guide in self-care in this current context.

In the last 24 hours we have learned that the police were wrong in stating that there were no formal complaints against the Roast busters, and thus they had been unable to anything to reign in the activities of the group.  Now the police have confirmed that there were four complaints from alleged Roast Buster victims between 2011 and 2012.  The Waitemata District Commander Bill Searle has apologised. However, apologies are routine, and don’t necessarily indicate change (see the 2007 response to the Bazley Report).

Meanwhile the PM and relevant ministers (Anne Tolley for Police, and Judith Collins for Justice) have been remarkably low key in their responses to the case.  John Key’s reactions have been off-key.  Tolley this morning is taking an “I knew nuzzink” approach.  Yesterday in the House Judith Collins responses to questions had all the appearance of stonewalling with the sound of feet dragging.  From none of them was there any expression of urgency in questioning the police on their approach to the case.

And yet, given the past record of the police in relation to sexual assault and rape, and the limited progress reportedly achieved after the Bazely inquiry into police conduct, these ministers should have been very concerned about the unfolding of the Roast Buster case.

Following the appalling revelations by Louise Nicholas and Judith Garrett about their rape and sexual assault by police officers the Bazley Inquiry was carried out.  The subsequent report was released in 2007.  One of the key things it recommended was on-going monitoring of the police conduct and culture in relation to sexual assault.

It also distinguished five patterns of unprofessional behaviour amongst certain elements within Police that needed to be addressed.

[…]

In June 2007, Cabinet requested quarterly monitoring reports produced jointly by Police, the State Services Commission, and the Ministry of Justice (on behalf of the Independent Police Conduct Authority).

Under John Key’s watch, the amount of monItoring by the State Services has been relaxed a little:

In 2012, the Minister for State Services recommended that the format of the quarterly reports be condensed. By 2013 the State Services and Ministry of Justice involvement in this joint report was minimal, so the agencies proposed that they no longer needed to participate in the development of quarterly reports, and should instead comment by exception. This proposal received Ministerial approval, and a new reporting format was adopted from 31 March 2013.

Nevertheless the State Services Commissioner has continued to annual reports based on an annual workplace survey. And yet, back in 2007, John Key as leader of the opposition had spoken very strongly about the need for on-going monitoring, especially by the State Services Commission:

“Just as worrying is Dame Margaret’s comments that she is concerned the police impetus for change may not be sustained once the Commission has reported.

“For that reason she’s recommended oversight by the State Services Commissioner with annual audits of police culture, and monitoring of the Commission’s recommendations over the next 10 years by the Auditor-General.

The Workplace surveys are wide ranging and not specifically focused on the conduct of police with respect to sexual assault and rape.

Meanwhile Judith Collins has talked tough about improving the culture of police, while providing limited evidence of positive initiatives or results.  The State Services Commissioner’s report in 2011 showed that progress had stalled:

The report, by PriceWaterhouseCoopers in conjunction with the SSC, is the third since the Commission of Inquiry  into Police Conduct led by Dame Margaret Bazley reported back in April 2007, that urgent, co-ordinated action was needed.

[…]

The report said that while police had made significant progress on culture change, senior management lacked confidence to make bold moves toward change.

It said that progress seemed to have reached a plateau.

“There is a lack of faith in police leadership because rhetoric does not always align to action,” the report said.

It said the police “need credible leaders who are great role models, do as they say and act decisively with regards to poor performance and practice”.

Police said this evening they acknowledge the need for traction around culture changes in the organisation.

Collins made noises about pressuring for better progress, in the face of a hard core within the police resistant to change:

“There are not that many of these people but unfortunately they have become very difficult to shift,” she said.

“Police middle and senior management need to be provided with the tools and the assistance to sort those matters out, because these very few people are making the work environment for the other officers difficult and they are being intransigent. That needs to be sorted.”

It seemed like Collins was putting pressure on the police behind the scenes. New targets were set in 2012, and Anne Tolley commended some changes:

Police would now report directly to the State Services Commission, which was “a significant step”, Police Minister Anne Tolley said.

And yet, in spite of the fact the Key, Collins and Tolley knew there were on-going issues with the culture within the police, their low key response to the Roast Buster case seems remarkably negligent.

There is clear evidence that there is a poor culture within the NZ Police in relation to sexual assault and rape, and relevant police procedure: one resistant to change.

As a result, the young women who complained to the police about Roast Busters have been been re-traumatised by the treatment they received.

What will it take to make society safer for such young women, with a police and justice system that works for and with them, and not against them?

140 comments on “The sound of feet dragging: after Bazley ”

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  1. Treetop 1
    7 November 2013 at 11:29 am

    The IPCA are currently doing an investigation into why rape files connected to the Pora investigation were put into a filing cabinet for two years.

    The IPCA did an investigation into the Wairarapa not properly processing rape files. Marshall was implicated in this.

    The IPCA website has a lot on the above and in August there were apologies and assurance given by the police because Rewa could have been stopped sooner.

    Do you know what stage the police are up to regarding Bazley’s recommendations?

    Surely some of her recommendations have already not been followed.

    • karol 1.1
      7 November 2013 at 11:44 am

      Well, as far as I can tell, it’s the Auditor General’s reports that indicate degree of progress with regards to implementing Bazley’s recommendations. The reports for each year are linked from the official pages on the report, that I linked to in my post.

      This is the 2012 AG Report.

      Overall, since our second monitoring report in 2010, there has been:

      mixed progress with activities relating to complaints against the Police;
      mixed but relatively poor progress to improve services for adult sexual assault complainants;
      elements of good progress for organisational change; and
      some progress to improve police behaviour.

      The full report is here.

      p21: “Investigating Adult Sexual Assaults”

      Still 142 police have not received the specialist training, including 57 who might have responsibilities for supervising investigations.
      .

      Mixed but relatively poor progress to improve services for adult sexual assault complainants since 2010
      […]
      3.9: The Police have also reviewed and revised their adult sexual assault investigation guidelines since our second monitoring report in 2010. The revised version was still to be finalised at the time of our 2012 audit

      3.10: The Police’s monitoring of implementation of the existing guidelines has slowed since our previous report.

      More of that sort of depressing information in the report.

  2. Bill 2
    7 November 2013 at 11:49 am

    What will it take to make society safer for such young women, with a police and justice system that works for and with them, and not against them?

    What won’t make society safer is any mere tinkering with police procedures/systems. Same goes for tinkering with other components of the justice system. The institutions and their cultures are a symptom of a deeper problem. Oh, that and they only kick in after the event anyway.

    Starting to get fcked off that there has not been the merest mention of the ‘P’ word in any of the newspaper, radio or TV reports I’ve seen and heard.

    This exclusive msm focus on symptoms rather than cause…the wanking on about drink and ‘education’ and porn and woeful police procedures is depressing. Same for the ‘watch us wash our hands and deflect’ suggestion that behaviours and parent/community responsibilities ought to kick in as though everything exists in a neutral social or cultural space.

    Do we really want a safer society for women and girls? Then take patriarchy. And rip it up, tear it down, trash it.

    • weka 2.1
      7 November 2013 at 12:08 pm

      ‘cept we can’t even manage to have a proper conversation about that here on ts. It’s not going to happen in the MSM for some time.

      In the meantime, making changes to police culture will (a) protect more women and (b) shift public awareness and consciousness about rape culture. That leads to shifts in the wider culture. Those are very good things. Dismantling the patriarchy is a fine objective but you have to have a strategy on how to get there from here.

      “Then take patriarchy. And rip it up, tear it down, trash it.”

      Bit off-topic for karol’s thread, but I still belive that most women are better off with the current State (and justice/legal/police systems) than we would be if those systems were torn down and trashed. That’s a pretty sad endictment on the state of humanity at this point in time, but the people that express the nasty shit in our society (the rape club, the police, the rape apologists) will all still be here if the system is taken out. What happens then?

      • Bill 2.1.1
        7 November 2013 at 1:25 pm

        Just to say, if the rapes clubs, current police culture and rape apologists are still there when patriarchy has been ‘taken out’ (as you put it), then…patriarchy obviously hasn’t been taken out.

        Thing about revolutions is that the process itself is the change it seeks. And that’s not some glib throwaway statement. Y’know, you wouldn’t and couldn’t use patriarchy or aspects of patriarchy to take out patriarchy. That would just be wastefully using a lot of time and energy to stand still.

        • weka 2.1.1.1
          7 November 2013 at 1:33 pm

          So how would you change those people? Most of those people don’t see anything wrong with how they are. If you crush the systems around them, what makes you think they are going to change too?

          • Bill 2.1.1.1.1
            7 November 2013 at 1:47 pm

            I’m no Bolshevik seeking to crush peoples’ systems resulting in them being left in the lurch. There is so-o-o much wrong with that way of thinking that I barely know where to start. And I won’t. Not here. It is, as you indicated, a bit off topic.

            • karol 2.1.1.1.1.1
              7 November 2013 at 2:35 pm

              I tend to be with weka on this. I see no easy transition to a non-patriarchal system and I fear that any revolution will more than likely be a transition to another patriarchal system without any major underlying change in values and behaviours.

              The current rule of law is double edged with respect to the position of women. No rule of law, could result in gangs of masculine proponents of rape culture engaging in conflicts based on contests of brute force, if there is not a widespread change in culture and values. And given how entrenched such behaviour and attitudes are in some quarters, I am not very optimistic.

              At least with the rule of law, women have the recourse to evidence based, rational challenges to the system and possibilities for change. However, the system incorporates the legacy of masculinist and patriarchal values, such that, the front line of law enforcement is pretty patriarchal.

              I still have not seen anything to show how we could proceed easily to a system without government, that wouldn’t result in the “weakest” in society being more vulnerable than now.

              Basically, I see no easy solution one way or another, in the short of immediate term. Meanwhile there are ways things could be improved, at the same time as chipping away ad the edifices of patriarchy.

              • QoT …
                7 November 2013 at 9:12 pm

                I agree. I’m all about tearing down patriarchy, but I also think there’s a problem (and when I’m feeling particularly cynical, a convenient derail) with making the-end-of-patriarchy our only goal. Because it’s never going to go away overnight.

                I’ve been very much heartened – amidst the utter shit – in the past week by just how many people (Matthew fucking Hooton, for fuck’s sake) across the political spectrum have been speaking out against the rape culture myths built into this issue. That says that the constant discussion and promotion of feminist anti-rape ideas has had an effect. It hasn’t ended rape, but it’s made this a complete fucking nightmare for our Police force where, say, the Louise Nicholas case wasn’t.

              • Bill …
                7 November 2013 at 10:04 pm

                If you want to imagine a definitive endpoint, in all it’s fine and glorious detail, then the question of “how from here to there” arises -and all the lock-down ‘correct’ thinking and actions and all that that entails comes into play….new fascist dawn rising.

                “Not here” on the other hand, simply involves walking. That’s the revolution.

    • karol 2.2
      7 November 2013 at 12:11 pm

      I agree the long term solution is the need for a massive culture and societal change – and that means the full dismantling of patriarchy.

      In the meantime, though, people are being raped and sexually assaulted, and police, permeated with patriarchal values, are doing little to prevent such crimes or work positively with the victims.

      I don’t see it as an either or thing. Both the underlying cultural values and urgent improvements in the current systems need to be attended to.

      A good point you make, Bill, is the superficial reporting and comments on related discussions.

      Reports of the immediate issues would be more helpful if they included mentions of the underlying issues or cultural and structural values. And/or there needs to be more articles, posts and discussions of the underlying values, how they damage lives and our society, and outlining better alternatives.

      However, addressing those underlying issues in a forum like this is a pretty distressing experience. With my last post on the topic, I found it pretty emotionally draining monitoring the comments. I am grateful to those people who respected that I was going to monitor the comments pretty strictly.

      Some did surface under your post yesterday, Bill. And I found them quite distressing to read.

      The post I linked to, by Ally Garrett, indicates that many women have found the whole Roast Buster case and fall out from it, pretty distressing. Many have said they have found it difficult to articulate an adequate response.

      By yesterday evening I was wondering if I was emotionally up to posting on the deeper issues any time in the near future. Focusing on the justice system and its failures is far easier.

      I think it becomes hard for many of us, especially for women, to participate in discussions in a forum like this, because it throws up the damaging patriarchal attitudes that we have found ways to negotiate, manage, and compartmentalise in order to carry on with our daily lives.

      • weka 2.2.1
        7 November 2013 at 12:23 pm

        Thanks so much for all your work on this karol.

        “And/or there needs to be more articles, posts and discussions of the underlying values, how they damage lives and our society, and outlining better alternatives.”

        I reckon a bit later we can have this conversation.

        “By yesterday evening I was wondering if I was emotionally up to posting on the deeper issues any time in the near future. Focusing on the justice system and its failures is far easier.

        I think it becomes hard for many of us, especially for women, to participate in discussions in a forum like this, because it throws up the damaging patriarchal attitudes that we have found ways to negotiate, manage, and compartmentalise in order to carry on with our daily lives.”

        Ae. There is something very important infolding at the moment. It’s painful and raw and I don’t think society has seen it visible like this before. I’d actually like to see women being able to talk about the whole thing and what is happening in safe space but am acutely aware that we don’t have that space nor the resources to create it.

        • Rhinocrates 2.2.1.1
          7 November 2013 at 12:32 pm

          I agree. The one good thing to come out of this horrible affair is the almost unanimous articulation in public of the understanding and condemnation of the attitudes that facilitate rape.

          • weka 2.2.1.1.1
            7 November 2013 at 12:37 pm

            I was feeling somewhat optimistic despite the heaviness of it all. Then I read this http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-071113/#comment-723450

            • Rhinocrates 2.2.1.1.1.1
              7 November 2013 at 1:40 pm

              Ugh. Just another variant on “she was asking for stand he couldn’t control himself.” Still, he’s hardly being praised for what he said.

              Please help me here, Weka – I’m grasping at straws, I know.

              • weka …
                7 November 2013 at 1:47 pm

                Yeah, it is good that these radio personalities are being challenged on what they are saying. I don’t think I’ve seen this happen before.

                I think that one just hit home because Fagan was prominent as a muso when I was a teen, and I had just posted a comment about a friend of mine who was raped at that time in pretty much the situation the girl that Fagan was talking to was in. I felt like I was in a time warp. Fagan’s attitude was understandable in the 80s, it’s not now.

          • QoT 2.2.1.1.2
            7 November 2013 at 9:14 pm

            Dammit, I just said this above before seeing your comment! I’m pretty sure I was less coherent. /drinkingthepainaway

      • Bill 2.2.2
        7 November 2013 at 12:48 pm

        ‘Funny’ how discussions on racism and sexism here on ‘ts’ routinely brings out some very weird shit from ‘unexpected’ quarters, innit?

        As for distressing comments – I’m not sure I’d be that able to ‘draw the line’ at an appropriate place. I mean, I’m pretty sure I know the comments you’re referring to – just that my reaction is astonishment rather than distress.

        Maybe very focused posts on specific power aspects of patriarchy that exclude specific references to sex and sexuality , rather than ‘catch all’ posts that almost invite the discussion to revolve around sex and sexuality, could be a way to go. Need to give it some thought.

        • weka 2.2.2.1
          7 November 2013 at 1:00 pm

          Don’t think you can meaningfully discuss the patriarchy without discussing sex and sexuality. Besides, the point isn’t to avoid distress or distressing topics, it’s to make it safer to talk anyway That’s dismantling the patriarchy.

          The one that got me was Greywarbler’s final comments yesterday. Too in my face and in a space I generally feel comfortable in. Not going to be able to forget that this person who I otherwise find interesting has some pretty abhorrent beliefs. I hate when that happens.

        • karol 2.2.2.2
          7 November 2013 at 1:05 pm

          Bill, with all due respect, the comments in question were targeting women and women’s experiences. It doesn’t surprise me at all that a man wouldn’t find them distressing.

          PS: I was very pleased to see a post on this issue from a man, addressing the underlying cultural and structural issues, and related problems with the behaviour of some men.

      • Chooky 2.2.3
        7 November 2013 at 7:36 pm

        +100 Karol…for all your solid hard work, care and concern…. in bringing out the issue into the open for discussion

        …and also thanks Bill for your previous post and pertinent comments

    • outofbed 2.3
      7 November 2013 at 12:23 pm

      Exactly

    • Chooky 2.4
      7 November 2013 at 8:04 pm

      +1 Bill….a new international movement is called for?…..( smirk)..probably the final and last one before global warming really kicks in….

      …one that uses the internet , social media around the globe and involves a good 50% + …..of the worlds population

      …..I vote you call a meeting….if no one else comes……I will vote you President ……

  3. Rhinocrates 3
    7 November 2013 at 11:55 am

    The police didn’t just drag their feet; the Police Association, led by Greg O’Connor, hired a private detective to dig dirt on Dame Margaret in the hope of blackmailing her or discrediting her inquiry. Naturally they failed.

    Just to add, it was recently revealed that after a gang of thugs in blue broke a man’s neck, they dragged their feet for three years to block an inquiry and all O’Connor can say is “fog of war”! Needless to say, the officers involved are known, but no disciplinary action has ever been taken.

    Our police force is out of control.

    • karol 3.1
      7 November 2013 at 12:22 pm

      Agree, Rhinocrates. It is the Nat MPs/ministers who largely meant have been dragging their feet – enabling the active resistance and misconduct of the police.

      • Rhinocrates 3.1.1
        7 November 2013 at 12:39 pm

        Even worse, they’ve tried to spin it to bolster their attempts to crack down on the Internet. There’s nothing too low for those opportunists.

    • Rogue Trooper 3.2
      7 November 2013 at 12:32 pm

      FTP

    • Saarbo 3.3
      7 November 2013 at 12:44 pm

      “Our police force is out of control.”

      I agree!

      The way they have handled this is absolutely disgraceful, it is like something from the third world.

      I cant help but think that is why Labour is spot on the mark passing a remit to ensure we have at least 50% women. This is a case of stupid men making fucken stupid decisions.

  4. Te Reo Putake 4
    7 November 2013 at 12:01 pm

    I have no confirmation of this, but I’m told that the surname of one of the young men is the surname of a police officer who was periferally involved in the Nicholas rape case. May be entirely a coincidence.

  5. Rhinocrates 5
    7 November 2013 at 12:47 pm

    The MSM are talking euphemistically about “blunders”.

    http://news.msn.co.nz/nationalnews/8751517/top-cops-to-oversee-roast-busters-case

    There’s also this: “A couple of the parents suggested that the police should not approach the daughters again.”

    I don’t want to read too much into that, but were the girls intimidated?

    • weka 5.1
      7 November 2013 at 1:03 pm

      Seems pretty obvious to me that it’s way past the point where the police can deal with this safely and competently. They need to get outside help.

      • emergency mike 5.1.1
        7 November 2013 at 3:22 pm

        I’m with you there weka. The Bazley Report showed that the rape culture inside the police is endemic. The police commissioner then said, “We’ll put our own house in order and we won’t mind who looks over our shoulder in the process,” That was six years ago.

        Now we learn that a 13 year old girl was made to show how she was raped with dolls, and told that she was asking for it by the way she dressed? House not in order.

        They don’t need someone to ‘look over their shoulder’ while they sort this out, they need someone who knows what they are talking about to sit them down and tell them how it’s going to be from now on. They expect young rape victims to be “brave enough” to come forward when the police are giving them the same excuses for rape that convicted rapists do? The stench is rising.

        • marty mars 5.1.1.1
          7 November 2013 at 6:38 pm

          the stench is high

          key says, ” He reiterated earlier comments that the behaviour was “abhorrent and disturbing”.

          “There’s two parts to this; potentially, there’s underage sex and that’s worrying to any parent.

          “The second really worrying part is that these guys have been boasting about that behaviour online and that is a very serious matter. These are fragile young girls that could potentially take their own lives.”

          http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/9371620/Independent-inquiry-into-Roast-Busters-sex-case

          • Rogue Trooper 5.1.1.1.1
            7 November 2013 at 6:49 pm

            One News- the Police Commissioner “was kept in the dark”
            Key- “Ministers kept in the dark”
            Key- concerning Police- “disappointing and frankly not good enough”.

            Dann- there is “real concern among the public”

            NZPolice (neanderthals) you bring this on your selves, lie, lie, lie then lie some more.

          • Tat Loo (CV) 5.1.1.1.2
            7 November 2013 at 6:50 pm

            These are fragile young girls that could potentially take their own lives.”

            WTF are you trying to do with this statement, Mr Key.

            • QoT 5.1.1.1.2.1
              7 November 2013 at 9:20 pm

              Honestly … I think he’s trying to say the right thing (his previous comments about how difficult it is for young women to report rape to the police were actually very good) but he kind of lacks the basic knowledge/feminist analysis/human empathy to pull it off well.

              • miravox …
                7 November 2013 at 9:52 pm

                I dunno…

                – police handling of the complaints is “disappointing”
                – finding out a complaint had been made from the media is “worrying”
                – underage ‘sex’ is “worrying”… to parents
                – boasting is a “very serious matter”

                • QoT …
                  7 November 2013 at 10:44 pm

                  He’s definitely got problems, but he also referred to the situation as “disturbing and abhorrent” and described the process for survivors reporting as “It’s a very challenging situation for a young woman to put herself in that position.”

                  He’s a politician. And he’s John Key. For him … I may be feeling charitable, but those are practically extreme, damning statements for him.

                  • Tat Loo (CV) …
                    7 November 2013 at 10:55 pm

                    You’re being too nice, I think. Key refers to two parts of the Roasters behaviour being of particular concern.

                    1) Underage sex, which would be worrying to any parent.
                    2) The online boasting about it, which is a serious matter.

                    And the big frakking elephant sized gap there is…?

                    • weka …
                      7 November 2013 at 11:18 pm

                      Yep. Has the man been able to say the word rape yet? Or even some legalese like unlawful sexual conduct or whatever? He can call it alleged.

                    • Bill …
                      7 November 2013 at 11:31 pm

                      Erm…would the gap be that ‘they just need to grow up’? Paraphrasing from a quote that I can’t be bothered to source – thinking it was on a standard post. Anyway…

                    • emergency mike …
                      7 November 2013 at 11:32 pm

                      Yep all I’m hearing from Key is: “That’s bad. That’s a very bad thing. Disappointing. Worrying. I don’t like that.”

                      Also the usual swift pointing the finger of blame for any fuck ups down the line: “In the end we don’t know how those complaints were made, we don’t know the details, that is a matter for the police,” he said.

                      An actual leader would promise action, not just make soothing noises. Oh I forgot, he’s going to take adavantage of the situation to promote his new cyberbullying laws. Never let a good crisis go to waste, as they say.

                  • Rhinocrates …
                    7 November 2013 at 11:39 pm

                    Yep, it’s a long way from “relaxed”. Hell, he might even go so far as to frown and look concerned.

  6. muzza 6
    7 November 2013 at 1:16 pm

    Dame Margaret Bazely – Responsible for the reports/commissions which have single handedly broken, how many government departments, social services and city’s ?

    Count them off, then consider, what is so special, about that individual, and why has she been delegated such high level powers that have lead to such destructive consequences for NZ.

    Such a well manufactured back story!

    • weka 6.1
      7 November 2013 at 1:23 pm

      Perhaps you would care to explain what you mean.

      • joe90 6.1.1
        7 November 2013 at 1:34 pm

        Oh I’m sure it’ll be the usual claptrap.

        • weka 6.1.1.1
          7 November 2013 at 1:42 pm

          What?

        • muzza 6.1.1.2
          7 November 2013 at 1:49 pm

          More assumptions eh Joe!

          Do you get out much?

          MB is a disgrace, and it does not take your links to identify the deliberate failings!

          • karol 6.1.1.2.1
            7 November 2013 at 2:13 pm

            Help us out then, muzza, by explaining the failings in the Bazley Report on Police Conduct, rather than arguing by character assassination?

            • muzza 6.1.1.2.1.1
              7 November 2013 at 2:36 pm

              Hi Karol,

              Take some time, start investigating the reports/commissions that MB has been the lead on, going back many, many years, and look at the results which have followed the implementation of the recommendations.

              With your talents, I am sure you could write a substantial article on the findings.

              Where MB has been involved, it has become broken…coincidental, of course!

              Edit – Start with Auckland, the results are going to speak for themselves, just not for many years, and people are not going to pleased!

              • karol …
                7 November 2013 at 2:46 pm

                muzza, this post is about the report on police conduct. You seem certain that the report was designed to fail. Show us the evidence in the report and its recommendations.

                You are dodging the issue. Either you have the evidence or you don’t?

                Why should I spend my time trying to prove your argument, when I have plenty of other things to do with my time?

                • weka …
                  7 November 2013 at 2:59 pm

                  +100

                  Put up or shut up muzza.

                • muzza …
                  7 November 2013 at 3:40 pm

                  Karol, see my original comment #6, which was all I had intended to post, and if people don’t like it, or want to contest it, they are welcome to go and get their own information, which is everywhere that MB has been involved!

                  My comment was not specifically about the police report, but on form, the performance of the force, the degradation in service levels, yet increasing instances of criminality involving police, and sense of duty to public safety ever declining, what do you think the benefit of the report actually was, or ever going to achieve….It’s all for show Karol, it’s theatre for the peasants who want to believe the systems/services in place will somehow turn around to function and operate the way we believe that they should.
                  It’s not going to happen, and MB has played a key role in much of this, and many other reformist recommendations, which have evidently proven to have been a failure already, go look it up. Do it because you want to, (you have used that same line to me before…I have asked you nothing, other than to pay you a compliment, that you could write a substantial article with your talents).

                  People want to find the round peg solution which goes in the round hole to answer problems which they don’t even understand the correct line of questioning for, and more people should be looking outside the box, because we are not dealing with straight forward incompetence, greed or corruption, it’s systemic!

                  @ Weka , pffffft, leave your pseudo tough comments out, and use some of the considerable time you allocate to posting here and go get for yourself, it’s called the internet silly!

                  • karol …
                    7 November 2013 at 3:46 pm

                    Still no evidence then, muzza.

                    (you have used that same line to me before…

                    citation please?

                    PS: This thread is about police conduct, The Roast Busters case, government responses, and the Bazely report. Any further comments that don’t address that will be moved to open mike.

                    • muzza …
                      7 November 2013 at 4:03 pm

                      No karol, I’m not going to spend the time to go through the posts to satiate such a trivial citation request.

                      I’ve made comments about police conduct, and given my thoughts on the reports, it’s purpose, and the outcomes which you have decided not to notice were on topic.

                      I’ll leave you to your post which is appreciated, the quality of the posts here is high, and I respect that, hence the compliment.

                      [karol: bye bye then. I have looked at the report, provided links to it and other stuff I’ve looked at about the monitoring of the implementations. If there is evidence that the Bazley Report was set up to fail, it’ll be in the report. I’ve already looked at the report, so if you know of where it was poor, it’s for you to show me.

                      I really have no recollection of telling you to go away and find evidence to prove an argument I am making. I would be very surprised if I did that. I usually aim to provide evidence to support my claims.

                      I may have on an odd occasion told someone to go and look at something after providing already providing some evidence to support my argument. Or to look at something that’s common knowledge.

                      So basically you can’t point to any evidence to support your claims on the Bazley Report, even though I provided the relevant links in my post.]

                  • McFlock …
                    7 November 2013 at 3:56 pm

                    I thought Project Onan had lost its funding?

                    Doing this “research” on your own dime then, muzz?

                  • weka …
                    7 November 2013 at 4:13 pm

                    Problem is muzza, I think you are sending us on a wild goose chase. All you had to do was be a bit more specific in your comment. Instead you post innuendo and then say it’s our fault for not researching something you haven’t explained.

              • QoT …
                7 November 2013 at 9:33 pm

                I realise karol has already dealt with this as a moderator, but I simply must add: GO FUCK YOURSELF, muzza.

                How fucking dare you try to derail a serious fucking post on a serious fucking issue with your personal beef against Margaret Bazley?

                You’re a fucking disgrace.

        • Rogue Trooper 6.1.1.3
          7 November 2013 at 2:35 pm

          Wow, that’s some creative writing joe90

    • Murray Olsen 6.2
      7 November 2013 at 6:05 pm

      There is an idiotic conspiracy theory, put out by a moron called Greg Hallett, that suggests Margaret Bazley runs NZ on behalf of an Illuminati pedophile ring. It also holds that Helen Clark was a Leningrad trained lesbian prostitute, Michael King was murdered to hide evidence of an ancient Celtic civilisation in Aotearoa, and a whole heap of other rubbish. If you look for the material ( http://www.greghallett.com/ ), be warned that it is very disturbing in its sexual depravity and sickness. I suspect this is the deluded and depraved rubbish that Muzza is referring to. He is more far gone than I had suspected.

      • karol 6.2.1
        7 November 2013 at 6:07 pm

        muzza’s comments also looked a bit like a thread jack to me – diverting from the core issues.

    • Chooky 6.3
      7 November 2013 at 11:00 pm

      @muzza…agreed!…..yes I am a ‘wee’ bit suspicious of her….she has been a bit of a hatchet woman for the government and status quo at times in the past…hence her Dame appellation

      …..A trained nurse, this Dame Bazely now heads the annexed Environment Canterbury

      …..Personally i think no person of integrity would take a big salary and do the Nact governments bidding and head an organisation which was forcibly wrested away from the democratic and voted control of the people of Canterbury ….The Nact government didnt like the way Ecan was going and who Cantabrians were voting in, so they wrested it out of the voters’ control…..scandalous really!

      Needless to say, Cantabrians were very concerned about their waterways/rivers and the effects of over- intensive corporate dairy farming on draining underground aquifers and contaminating water quality with nitrates….. and ECan , before its annexation, was headed by scientists and environmental experts of many years research standing ….who were doing a very difficult balancing act between all the interest groups …so they called in Dame Bazely to sort the scientists and environmentalists out and speed up the job in the vested interests of corporate dairy

      …I say all this in support of muzza, even although it may seem off topic….

      [karol: you have started to move off topic, chooky. This thread is on the specific issues about police conduct and ministerial oversight related to sexual assault and rape, and the Bazley report on police conduct.

      I have moved muzza’s reply to open mike. If you want to discuss wider systemic problems on government and Bazley’s role in it, then this thread is not the place for it – open mike is fine for such topics]

  7. Rhinocrates 7
    7 November 2013 at 1:22 pm

    We need to start naming and shaming the pigs:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11152671

    Superintendant Bill Searle. [deleted]

    See this:

    • Tuesday: Superintendent Bill Searle said none of the girls from the original inquiry wanted to make a formal complaint.

    • Yesterday: A teenage girl says she made a formal complaint to the police two years ago.

    Commissioner Peter Marshall: Incompetent at best. If he takes the six-figure pay, then he takes responsibility. Sack him.

    [Bill]:- I fully understand your sentiments Rhinocrates, but bald assertions like that get the ‘making me nervous’ o’meter twitching. Might want to consider how you frame things like that.

  8. karol 8
    7 November 2013 at 1:46 pm

    Tweet from journalist Toby Manhire:

    Speaking of assurances, John Tamihere has just been assuring us that he knows the top police in Waitemata and they’re ok by him.

    • weka 8.1
      7 November 2013 at 3:03 pm

      Makes sense, esp as his mate Willie Jackson is friends with Clint Rickard and thinks he is innocent.

  9. captain hook 9
    7 November 2013 at 2:00 pm

    Peter Marshall is ok. The cops doing the best they can but they are trying to be allthings to al people.
    They are not social workers or psychologists. They are dammed if they do th ejob properly and dammmed if they dont.
    The problem is the infantilism and inanity rife in our society and underpinned by post modern nonsense such as only your own truths count.
    most of this crap would go away if they brought back caning into the justice ystem.

    • Rhinocrates 9.1
      7 November 2013 at 2:28 pm

      The cops doing the best they can

      On exactly what planet orbiting exactly what star have you been for the last few days? My guess is Gliese 667C-e, (about twenty three light years away, orbiting a M1 red dwarf and at the outer edge of the habitable zone) but please correct me if I’m wrong.

      underpinned by post modern nonsense such as only your own truths count. most of this crap would go away if they brought back caning into the justice ystem.

      Um OK. Hope you’ve got plenty of tinfoil at hand.

    • Treetop 9.2
      7 November 2013 at 3:58 pm

      captain hook I do not have a high expectation when it comes to the cops investigating crimes which do not have a direct physical nature e.g. burglaries, car theft. I agree that the cops are not psychologists and some social workers do not understand the psychological aspects of sexual assault.

      There is something very disturbing going on in the police when it comes to not joining the dots when a person has made a formal or informal rape/sexual assault complaint.

      It has crossed my mind that the high ranking cops who make a lot of the decisions about sexual assault complainants are unaware of the harm they are doing because they are not psychologists. Also this group could have many ingrained misconceptions as well as being ignorant or in denial.

      From day one of the Bazley inquiry, I thought that the psychology of the harm that sexual assault does was lacking.

      Nicholas is an upstanding citizen who has worked her guts out to expose the shortcomings in the police regarding sexual criminal offending and to give support to anyone who has been sexually assaulted. I hear the disappointment in her voice.

      • weka 9.2.1
        7 November 2013 at 4:10 pm

        Yeah but it’s not like the NZ Police haven’t had time to learn how to do their job better when it comes to complaints about sexual violence. The issues about rape and reporting to police have been known for decades. A lot of work has been done on this over the years. Then Louise Nicholas took them to task. These are all historic things. That police are not psychologists is NO excuse. If they are dealing with crime that impacts psychologically then they have a duty to learn how to do that well.

        • Treetop 9.2.1.1
          7 November 2013 at 4:31 pm

          “That police are not psychologists is NO excuse.” I agree.

          Police have an organisational psychologist or two who work for them. Looks like the police are several short. The police cuts would not be helping in this area.

          • karol 9.2.1.1.1
            7 November 2013 at 6:02 pm

            You have raised a good point, Treetop.

          • weka 9.2.1.1.2
            7 November 2013 at 6:19 pm

            Or when they take in recruits and train them in every other area of policing, why not also train them in dealing with sexual assualt cases? Like other kinds of police work, working on sexual assault cases should be given to those with more aptitude for the work. Working with rape victims is challenging emotionally, but it’s the culture of the police force that is making it hard. Psychologists yes, but frontline staff need training too, and there need to be specialists when it comes to investigating complex cases like this one. None of this is news and it’s not like the expertise doesn’t exist in the community for training. So why hasn’t it happened?

            • Treetop 9.2.1.1.2.1
              7 November 2013 at 6:59 pm

              “So why hasn’t it happened?”

              A police recruit is in training for 19 weeks.

              Perhaps the organisational psychologists employed in the police do no training with frontline staff, possibly they are there to do required routine assessments on cops, (think this is done three yearly). I do know that Nicholas has been to the police college to speak to dectectives in training.

              I’d like to know what the budget is for changing the police culture when it comes to sexual assault complaints?

              • karol …
                8 November 2013 at 10:18 am

                Good questions, Treetop.

                If the police, and the relevant ministers, were treating the issue with urgency, the funds would have been available and appropriate training and monitoring would have been paid for and carried out to in a way that was likely to bring about positive results.

                • Treetop …
                  8 November 2013 at 11:58 am

                  Karol, this thread is about “in the publics interest” even though sexual assault can be an emotionally draining topic to cover, not covering it will change nothing.

                  Thank you.

                  Police progress COI but still more to do
                  18 October 2012

                  “We are also seeking feedback from victims about their experience of our service and how we can improve it.”

                  http://www.infonews.co.nz/news.cfm?id=98403

                  I would like to know what if any feedback was received?

                  (The police have been given feedback this week from sexual assault complainants and from the public regarding how the police have managed complaints of sexual assault).

                  Did the police approach anyone who had made a formal or informal sexual assault complaint for feedback?

                  (I’m sure that giving the police feedback is not on the priority list when a complaint is being made).

                  I doubt many teenagers would have read the article.

                  • Treetop …
                    8 November 2013 at 12:10 pm

                    1200 out of 1500 investigative staff have received training in adult sexual assault (ASA) as of October 2012.

                    How many staff have received training in child and youth sexual assault?

                    (I regard this category to be a specialist area).

    • Murray Olsen 9.3
      7 November 2013 at 6:09 pm

      Captain Hook: I can only imagine that you would volunteer to cane the 13 year old girls for their promiscuous behaviour. Another sick bloody Tory.

  10. Chris 10
    7 November 2013 at 2:01 pm

    I think we need to be careful lumping ALL policeman in the same corrupt basket.

    In my line of work I have had to call Police 3 times in the last 12 months to deal with domestic violence and on every occasion their attitude and manner in dealing with the victims has been consistent and above reproach. At all 3 incidents there were at least 4 officers and always 1 female officer to assist the victim. I will add I am not in the Auckland area but whether that comes into play I couldn’t say.

    • weka 10.1
      7 November 2013 at 2:37 pm

      I agree Chris. It might be helpful to talk about the NZ Police (who are failing to deal with rape culture in their own organisation), and the specific branch that is dealing badly with the rape club, and all the other places in NZ where the police have failed to deal with sexual assault well, and the individual police who do a good job.

      Sorry, I didn’t mean to come across as sarcastic, it just happened as I typed. I think your point is valid, and I’m sure there are some good police in NZ who are pretty unhappy right now with how their colleagues have behaved.

      • Chris 10.1.1
        7 November 2013 at 3:24 pm

        Weka, never apologise for voicing your opinions.

        I have absolutely no problem when someone disagrees with me.

        Sarcastic… no problem, I’m great at being that 🙂

  11. Saarbo 11
    7 November 2013 at 2:19 pm

    Radio Live…Hooten has walked out of the studio. First time I believe he was absolutely spot on the mark.

  12. anon 12
    7 November 2013 at 2:28 pm

    today, radiolive, Danny Watson’s show:

    http://content.radionetwork.co.nz/weekondemand/auckland/51300.mp3

    11:30 in: caller alleges 2 girls were drugged, one waking up while being raped, went through entire FORMAL complaints process, files ‘lost’ and unable to satisfactorily contact investigating officer to follow up

    • Treetop 12.1
      7 November 2013 at 4:12 pm

      It has got to the point when a person needs to be given a copy and the officers identity number attached, then the public will know which cop stuffed up.

      I thought that all sexual assault complaints now had their own national data base. I will look into this further.

    • karol 12.2
      7 November 2013 at 6:01 pm

      I see also, that several advertisers have pulled their ads from Radio Live.

  13. Rogue Trooper 13
    7 November 2013 at 2:40 pm

    not quite the thread karol, yet I’ll loop in here-

    Charlotte Church, on the Music Industry (loosely drags in talk-back schlock jocks)
    http://www.digitalmusicnews.com/permalink/2013/10/15/church
    “male-dominated with a juvenile perspective on gender and sexuality”

  14. charles kinbote 14
    7 November 2013 at 2:41 pm

    When did having sex with persons who drink become rape. And when did multiple sex become rape.

  15. Tracey 15
    7 November 2013 at 2:44 pm

    Weka and karol

    one thing that can make a difference is when the police sag they need a complaint and then reveal 3 informal and one formal you start sacking people. Bottom and top. Sonetimes you need sacrificial lambs to make sure the point is received loud and clear.

    ipca

    how long will they take? 3 years? So the police can lie and say that was then, we have changed now as they do and have done for the past 30 years.

    police union head greg oconnor is very quiet… not rushing to defend the good officers and seperating them from the rogues.

    • weka 15.1
      7 November 2013 at 2:56 pm

      Agreed Tracey, heads should roll. The NZ Police are on a hiding to nothing with this one. Public confidence is critical for their job, and they’re losing that rapidly and significantly.

    • emergency mike 15.2
      7 November 2013 at 3:29 pm

      Yep that’s what I thought when I heard there had been four complaints made after days of the police saying there were none. It seem to me that they have to sack at least one person here, or else people might start asking some awkward questions about who has been lying here.

  16. Tracey 16
    7 November 2013 at 2:54 pm

    Charles kinbote

    when there is no verbal consent or consent is not capable of being given both your examples are rape.

    to clarify, someone drunk as to be falling over, unconscious or moving in or out of consciousness.

    it is also possible to give consent and later withdraw it

  17. adam 17
    7 November 2013 at 3:31 pm

    Does it take it happen to children, before something happens? These are children, young women with there whole life in front of them – brutalized, because boys will be boys. This is structural problem, something is very wrong with our society. We know what it is – it has a name – wise women from Emma Goldman to Germaine Greer have said what this vicious nasty little club will do to our children – and guess what – it has happened again – it will happen again and again and again until we have a radical shift away from patriarchy.

    We can’t tinker, or reform this one. It has a way of creating it’s own backlash – that particular backlash has been in full swing since the late 80’s. Look how many young women think feminism is a dirty word. One of the great words in the English language – demonized. That’s because a section of males like power over women – they don’t need to beat you all or ruff you up. They just need a few of the lads to brutalize a few of you, to remind you of your place. Is enough – enough? Or you going to tinker and reform and let your daughters, sisters, nieces and mothers, grandmothers suffer under this beast? I’m not I’m over it. Any other male gets out of line in front of me – he’s for it. Damn this culture – damn us all for let this happen to children.

  18. Tracey 18
    7 November 2013 at 4:33 pm

    Adam – well said

  19. Rosie 19
    7 November 2013 at 4:36 pm

    karol, thank you for the self help link above. That is what I needed and have noted that several of those suggestions I have been following through with instinctively over the last few days as it happens.

    I haven’t been commenting on the RB’s because I’ve not yet been able to get past an emotional reaction to a point where I can speak in any logical way. This has surprised me as it was 28 years ago that I was in a similar situation as these girls and I thought all the counselling worked and that was the end of it. I keep wondering how many women in NZ have had these old wounds re opened as a result of the intensity of these rape allegations.

    Thanks again and thanks too to those commenters, who have written so intelligently and with sensitivity and understanding over the last few days. It’s funny to say that reading your original post and Bill’s post and the comments has been heartening, in among the difficulty of it all.

  20. Tracey 20
    7 November 2013 at 4:39 pm

    Perhaps the ipca should compare the polices files on the current case and this one

    http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11153167

    to see if they were handled differently

    • MrSmith 20.1
      7 November 2013 at 8:28 pm

      I wouldn’t put any faith in the IPCA.

      I like this bit under “Operational independence”

      Most complaints to the Authority are referred to the Police for investigation and resolution. The Authority independently oversees Police handling of these complaints. The form of that oversight depends on the  nature of the complaint, but can include independent review or audit of the Police investigation.

      So the filth still mostly investigate themselves.

      http://www.ipca.govt.nz/Site/about/Independence.aspx

  21. JK 21
    7 November 2013 at 5:27 pm

    The Irony : Martyn Bradbury says on The Daily Blog (7 Nov 2013)

    ” At 12.57pm today I was contacted by Campbell Moore from NZ Police Public Affairs threatening me with 6months imprisonment and $5000 fine for parodying their Roast Buster Rape inaction.
    We have been forced by this threat to censor the parody and believe this is a woeful action by a Police Department under immense pressure to justify their sexist inaction of sex attacks against women that this blog has been highly critical of.
    The irony is not lost on me that if I had been bragging about rape, I wouldn’t be arrested, but parodying the inaction of the NZ Police sees me threatened with 6months imprisonment and a fine of $5000.”

    and BTW, Clint Rickards sits on the Waipareira Trust Board which John Tamihere is the CEO of. (yeah I know lousy grammar, but you get the message? )

    Added note – Idiot Savant has the naughty poster on his/her blogsite !

  22. Tat Loo (CV) 22
    7 November 2013 at 6:46 pm

    So, have the hang’em high crowd at the cynically named Sensible Sentencing Trust released any statements on the Roasters yet?

    If not, I wonder what is keeping their one eyed statements on the sidelines.

    • Gareth 22.1
      7 November 2013 at 10:21 pm

      They’ve condemned it on their Facebook page.

      From the page:

      “The disgusting conduct of these dirtbags just shows they have a complete absence of moral values and respect for young women. Most significantly by the fact they are actually publicly boasting about their conduct online. People who commit this sort of repugnant behaviour belong in prison. What’s even more objectionable and offensive in the exreme is hearing young women on TV3 News condoning the actions of these scum and suggesting their actions are normal and attractive – Ross”

      • Tat Loo (CV) 22.1.1
        7 November 2013 at 10:24 pm

        Thanks Gareth. Hang’em high…don’t bother with the trial…bad morals are enough to go to prison for…and those offensive young women should know better!!!

        Sounds about right for the SST.

  23. red blooded 23
    7 November 2013 at 7:11 pm

    This is a horrifying situation, and the sexist, selfish and predatory behaviour of a pack of dickheads who see rape as entertainment is only made worse by the inaction of the police. I’m getting to this post late, but I’m going to respond to the much earlier post about the p word. Yes, we need to work to deconstruct patriarchy, and yes, it’s sad that young women roll their eyes at feminism (which they can only do because of the work of generations of feminists which has created a society in which the restraints and restrictions of patriarchy are nowhere near as intrusive and limiting as they used to be)… The p word I haven’t heard anyone talking about yet though is PARENTS. What role did the parents of these rapist braggarts have in installing such appalling attitudes to women and to sex, and in producing sons so lacking in empathy or basic decency? How much did they know about their son’s actions? What have they done or tried to do to make their sons take responsibility for the damage they have wreaked in the lives of their victims? And I think it’s fair enough to suggest that the girls’ parents need to ask themselves about some of their role modelling and teaching about alcohol and decisions about boundaries around parties etc.

    I’m not suggesting that the RBs aren’t culpable for their actions. I guess I’m just pointing out that they didn’t happen in a bubble. These guys had friends who knew what they were doing, they had parents who helped to shape their values and personalities and they had access to young girls who had made some bad decisions about alcohol and were unable to resist because of it.

    • Tat Loo (CV) 23.1
      7 November 2013 at 8:28 pm

      I haven’t seen anyone else really mention parents and parenting as being an important factor to examine in this incident. So I really appreciate you being practical and down to earth enough to do so.

      The other word which has been missing in action so far is responsibility. A lot of people are clamouring for major change. Change the way people think. Change how society works. Change how families work. Change ingrained attitudes and institutions.

      Well, change doesn’t happen unless people are held responsible so what about that. The adults in this situation need to be held responsible. The parents, the police and the many many other “grown-ups” in the community who knew that this was happening, or suspected it was happening, need to be held responsible.

    • karol 23.2
      8 November 2013 at 10:24 am

      It’s not always the parents who are the main influences. It’s other adults in the social circle and wider community. Like what sort of role model are Tamihere & Willie J providing?

      I recall as a teenager I rebelled against my parents in various ways. I disagreed with their Muldoonist politics. They were anti-gay and I was a closeted lesbian.

      It takes a village.

    • Bill 23.3
      8 November 2013 at 11:21 am

      What’s this about pissed young girls needing to be resisting something and ‘making bad decisions’ shit!?

      How’s about neither sober nor pissed men should be raping any women or girls or boys or men or animals under any circumstances?

      How about throwing the ‘seeking of consent’ out of the window and instead, normalising the seeking of enthusiastic consent?

  25. RedBaron CV 25
    7 November 2013 at 8:36 pm

    Thanks for your work on this Karol.
    I don’t know if this helps but some years back I was involved in a lessor parallel situation. I thought at the time, if I (well educated, some financial security,older, english first language etc ,etc) struggle to cope then how do the rest manage. I kept going, some wins, some losses in the trying for change stakes but to this day, both directly and indirectly, I have had other people comment positively, some knowing who I am and others just simply because it is topic du jour. It’s a good feeling knowing that someone’s life has been made a little better.

    This is what you have done, in the short term and the long term, somebody, somewhere, has a life that will be a little better, they won’t feel quite so alone because of your assistance.

    • Rhinocrates 25.1
      7 November 2013 at 8:50 pm

      Indeed. Thanks Karol. You must surely be making a difference.

      I know someone who’s going to find this whole affair massively triggering, but this time the police are under scrutiny, this time the apologists are being condemned. That’s good.

      I think that what needs to be done now is let people know about organisations such as Rape Crisis and Women’s Refuges.

      http://www.wellingtonrapecrisis.org.nz

      This is the Wellington branch. Their funding is critically low – please make a donation.

      http://www.womensrefuge.org.nz

      The same.

      Voltaire once said that the greatest crime is to do nothing because you can only do a little.

      However, every little counts. Next time there’s an appeal, donate even just your loose change. Next time someone makes a rape joke, confront them on it and demand that they explain why they think that it’s funny. These are little things, but they add up.

      • emergency mike 25.1.1
        7 November 2013 at 10:31 pm

        And those who can do a lot, and have a responsibilty to do do, should. Like our government increasing funding for the services you mention.

        Oh that’s right, NAct prefers to cut their funding. “Tight times,” said Paula Bennett, Social Undevelopment Minister for the Corporate Handouts And Scams And Screw Everyone Else Party I mean for the National Party. Then John Key gets ‘disappointed’ about the RB boys, (now world famous rapists), like it’s nothing to do with him.