Open mike 09/10/2024

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 9th, 2024 - 89 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

89 comments on “Open mike 09/10/2024 ”

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  1. gsays 1
    9 October 2024 at 7:05 am

    This is a link to the treaty debate on The Working Group.

    With the notion that Maori never ceded sovereignty and the British were to govern only the pakeha and 'new comers' sinking in, Helmet says this is a bit like being told you were adopted.

    • Chris 1.1
      9 October 2024 at 11:18 am

      Watched this last night. Damien Grant couldn't string two sentences together. He was appalling. So was Seymour. They had absolutely no idea. Grant's rebuttal got as good as "I don't agree". Seymour dismissed everything Moduk said with a "well if you're going to go on like that…", and when Seymour was challenged it got as detailed as "you don't understand". When challenged over whether the Treaty was between two "races", Seymour dug in so deep he looked pathetic. Would be good to read a transcript of both of them, great material…

      • gsays 1.1.1
        9 October 2024 at 3:28 pm

        While I was predisposed to think this, I thought Helmet won.

        His distinction that the treaty is not about 'race' undermined a lot of Act's rhetoric.

        I learnt more from him than Seymour.

  2. Sanctuary 2
    9 October 2024 at 7:45 am

    Don't want to start any rumours but apparently Shane Reti was spotted on a plane to Dunedin clutching a whole lot of Skyline garage brochures.

  3. Jenny 3
    9 October 2024 at 8:15 am

    Silence may be Golden

    But sometimes it's leaden.

    The anniversary of 7th of October Hamas led attack on Israel, probably one of the most momentous events of recent times, an event that will studied and pored over for generations, passed by with barely a ripple in the NZ blogosphere.

    Everyone seems to be ducking for cover on this issue

    No doubt the mainstream media's own lackluster mediocre coverage, and even outright censorship, have something to do with it. It's like everyone in the media don't want to look too closely, into that horrific event. Or don't want to be caught out by knowingly broadcasting pro-war propaganda that they know to be false, and also know will be later proved to be false with the passage of time. Nobody wants to wind up on the wrong side of history. On the other side nobody wants to stick their head to challenge the mainstream media. So silence is the default position.

    Why is this important?

    Because the events of October 7 have been used to justify a genocide.

    The advert that Stuff refuses to print

    Statement by PSNA (Palestine Solidarity Newsletter Aotearoa) today:

    Banned by Stuff! – revealing the advertisement Stuff doesn’t want you to see

    • Subliminal 3.1
      9 October 2024 at 10:35 am

      The quote from Netanyahu is particularly chilling. "You must remember what Amalek has done to you" along with the biblical reference that god commands them to "spare no one but kill alike men and women, infants and sucklings, oxen and sheep, camels and asses". Which is precisely the blueprint being implemented in Gaza. These religious fanatics believe themselves to be on a mission from a loveless and compasionless god.

      • Jenny 3.1.1
        9 October 2024 at 2:31 pm

        Israeli leaflets with the evacuation order airdropped to the people in Northern Gaza stated that those who remained behind would be determined to be accomplices of Hamas..

        (presumably meaning the IDF intend to shoot on sight, anyone who remains, as terrorists, or terrorist sypathisers)

        From 'Amnesty International' October 25, 2023

        ….The leaflets warned residents to leave immediately, declaring their lives at risk and explicitly stating that

        “anyone who chooses not to leave from the north of the [Gaza] Strip to south of Wadi Gaza may be determined an accomplice in a terrorist organization”

        [my emphasis. J.]

        As well as preventing what little humanitarian aid that gets into Gaza from getting to the Northern part of the Strip, the IDF has continued with its policy of actively killing Palestinians remaining in Northern Gaza.

        With the media spotlight turned toward Lebanon, the Israeli program of extermination being carried out in the Northern part of the Gaza Strip is being stepped up a notch.

        From 'Common Dreams' Oct 08, 2024

        'Jabalia Is Being Wiped Out': Gaza Pleads for Help as Israel Intensifies Assault

        One Palestinian journalist said that "the situation in the north is horrific and very dangerous" and implored people to "please share what's happening."

        By Jake Johnson

        …..tanks advanced deeper into the Jabalia refugee camp, where terrified residents reported being fired on by the Israeli military as they tried to flee.

        Citing eyewitness accounts, CNN, Al Jazeera, and other news outlets reported that Israeli forces opened fire indiscriminately at people in Jabalia, who are under Israeli evacuation orders.

        https://www.commondreams.org/news/israel-northern-gaza-2669359467?utm_source=Common+Dreams&utm_campaign=bf88351300-Top+News%3A+Tues.+10%2F8%2F24&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_-3b949b3e19-%5BLIST_EMAIL_ID%5D

        Genocide denier SPC, claims, Here – because the IDF issues warnings to leave an area before they exterminate all those that remain behind, it is not genocide, because according to SPC giving warnings "is not consistent with that goal".

        Let's see if SPC's claim that if you given a warning to leave it can't be a genocide has any validity.

        From the BBC:

        https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/w3ct5n29

        "It's November 8, 1938…."

        Kristallnacht, The Night of Broken Glass

        A first hand account of the 1938 Kristallnacht from Kurt Salomon Maier

        @44:47 minutes;

        …..After they cleared the glass up, Kurt and his mother were waiting for his father and grandfather to come home.

        "I didn't know where my father was, I found out all the Jewish men had been arrested"

        That night thirty thousand Jewish men were arrested and sent to the concentration camps of Dachau, Buchenwald and Saschenhausen. This included Kurt's father and grandfather.

        "We were just sitting at home waiting, that's all we could do."
        "In less than a month, my father came back, and my grandfather came back. I was at my grandmother's house when my grandfather came in the door, he practically collapsed from exhaustion."

        Kurt's father had also been released. But they were given a stark warning.

        "All the Jews that had been arrested and sent to Dachau were told one thing, 'Get Out of Germany as Quickly as Possible'. 'Get Out!' 'We don't want you here!'.
        And of course most of them didn't have any passport, or any visa, no country to go to. It was very difficult."…..

        ….."We only had 24 hours to get ready. To pack our bags and take whatever you can carry. We had no other thoughts than take as much with you, warm stockings and pullovers. And don't miss the truck.waiting for us. They are going to take us to the railway station……

        The images coming out of Gaza that we are seeing of civilians, including children, fleeing their homes with all they can carry, after receiving IDF warnings, dragging their bundles of bags and possessions. Many walking, some on trucks and in cars, some on donkey carts, trying to escape the genocide that awaits them if they stay, recalls Kurt Salomon Maier's account of his family's forced departure, with all the belongings that they could carry with them.

        Because they were warned to get out, what is happening to the Palestinians, according to SPC, is inconsistent with genocide.

        According to SPC, because they were also warned to get out, what happened in Europe to the Jewish people, that couldn't have been a genocide either.

        But SPC needn't worry. SPC's words, as Reverend King said will not be remembered.

        "It is not the words of our enemies that we will remember, but the silence of our friends."

        Rev. Martin Luther King

        • SPC 3.1.1.1
          9 October 2024 at 2:44 pm

          Is this an issue which makes you feel entitled to stalk those who disagree with you?

          • Jenny 3.1.1.1.1
            9 October 2024 at 3:10 pm

            I don't know who you are, you comment annomymously, as I do.
            As I don't know who you are, I can hardly be accused of stalking you.
            I took your denial of the genocide in Gaza as an egregious example of the genre.

            Do you still deny the genocide in Gaza?

            As you seem to have promoted yourself as a spokesperson for genocide denial, you can hardly blame me for taking you to task over it.

        • Belladonna 3.1.1.2
          9 October 2024 at 6:22 pm

          And, if you believe all of this, what is the culpability of Egypt which resolutely maintains closed borders to Palestinians?

          Not to mention the rest of the Arab Middle East, which is resolute in refusing to re-settle displaced Palestinians (in case it weakens their claim to the destruction of Israel).

          • Nic the NZer 3.1.1.2.1
            9 October 2024 at 6:58 pm

            That potential exit route has been sealed off by Israel seizing control of the Philadelphi corridor. This blockade remaining in place was recently stated as a requirement for any cease fire by Netanyahu (though that may have been a tactic to abort negotiations).

            Israel’s Seizure of Gaza Border Zone Strains Ties With Egypt – The New York Times (nytimes.com)

            That on top of a full opening of the border by Egypt likely resulting in displeasure from the US and Israel which would need to overcome political hurdles inside Egypt to begin with (also violating existing treaty agreements).

            • Belladonna 3.1.1.2.1.1
              10 October 2024 at 8:47 am

              That potential route has been in place since the start of the conflict (a year ago). Egypt have made it very clear that the border is sealed. And have made zero attempt to allow any refugees to cross it.

              Fail to see why allowing refugees to cross the border would incur displeasure from the US and Israel.

              But, as your argument has so clearly pointed out, politics is more important than 'genocide'. If that is the case for Egypt and the Arab Middle East, why is it so hard for you to comprehend that it's the case for Israel.

              • Nic the NZer …
                10 October 2024 at 9:16 am

                That border hasn't been sealed all year, it was opened to let aid convoys through, though that the situation is more complicated is made clear from the fact that Israel was checking these aid convoys. There have also been a limited number of people allowed to leave Gaza via Egypt earlier in the year (on visas issued by Egypt, likely in exchange for significant payments).

                This goes to the point that having an open border there would run into US and Israel displeasure, especially due to the fact that clearly military aid would be able to flow through such a border into Gaza. The monitoring of this and creation of smuggling routes through this border has occurred previously. I understand previously smuggling tunnels were flooded with sea water to destroy them. Both Israel and the US are to some extent allies of Egypt and neither would be happy for military aid to Hamas being able to enter Gaza.

                Speaking more directly about your proposal, of course initially when Israel invaded Gaza it was merely clear that one of their goals would be to expel the population from Gaza (ideally for Israel to the Sinai). Israel didn't even attempt to suggest there were guarantees they could return to Gaza after the invasion was concluded (and frankly, as Egypt does understand, they would have become doubly refugees unable to return). At the time it wasn't yet clear that Israel would be willing to go as far as it has. Ultimately Israel's geopolitical goal is, not to have Gaza's Palestinian population in Gaza, and it doesn't have particular concerns over them being somewhere else as long as they are not going to have an ability to return.

                • Belladonna …
                  10 October 2024 at 9:46 am

                  Border can be open one way. Allowing the refugees from 'genocide' to escape into Egypt.

                  If Egypt really believes that genocide is occurring (and has been occurring virtually since the IDF started operations in Gaza) – then their refusal to open the border makes them complicit.

                  I note that none of these questions of permanent displacement were raised over (for example) Syrian (in Turkey) or Sudanese (in Egypt) refugees. Note that both of these conflicts have strong sectarian elements – with arguably genocidal attacks on population groups. If one side 'wins' – the other will not be able to return.

                  • Nic the NZer …
                    10 October 2024 at 11:11 am

                    It's not sensible to infer what Egypt believes from its border policy here. Egypt is a country after all, it has multiple beliefs just due to that fact. If we are attributing complicity then the key ally of Egypt, the US, is still arming Israel with many, many of the weapons being used.

                    As far as population transfer goes, I don't necessarily disagree that these may be goals for groups in other conflicts. We can however see from more than 50 years of the history of this conflict that it's a goal of Israel here.

                    • Belladonna …
                      10 October 2024 at 11:47 am

                      Well, we can also see from more than 50 years of conflict, that it's a goal of the Arab nations to remove Israel.

                      Have a look at the history (not belief, but history) of the removal of the Jewish population from every Middle Eastern country during the 20th century.

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world

                      You seem happy to infer Israel's policy from it's actions (ignoring the equally valid fact that Israel is a country, and has multiple beliefs due to that fact).

                      And, in relation to population transfer, while you "don't necessarily disagree that these may be goals for groups in other conflicts" – you refrain from demonizing them, in the same way.

                  • Nic the NZer …
                    10 October 2024 at 12:06 pm

                    You are drawing an incorrect conclusion from what I imply about Egypt's inferences. Were Egypt to take an official position stating that Israel is or is not committing genocide we can of course understand that as Egypt's position. Just in the absence of that it's kind of hard to draw such a direct inference. In the same way I do attribute meaning to both the statements and more importantly the actions of the Israeli government.

                    The fact there are other sectarian conflicts going on in the world (which may be involving population transfer) which I haven't commented on here doesn't actually say anything at all about how I feel about them.

                    • Belladonna …
                      10 October 2024 at 1:05 pm

                      Well, we can take an inference from their actions. They have refused to open the boarder.

                      Legitimate inferences which can be taken:

                      • They do not believe there is a genocide going on.
                      • They do believe there is a genocide, but their political principles over-ride their concern for people.

                      If you are willing to attribute meaning "to both the statements and more importantly the actions of the Israeli government" – you should also be willing to attribute meaning to the statements and actions of the Egyptian one.

                  • Nic the NZer …
                    10 October 2024 at 1:22 pm

                    What is it you think Egypt believes?

                    "They do not believe there is a genocide going on.

                    They do believe there is a genocide"

                    So, what is it you think Egypt believes?

          • joe90 3.1.1.2.2
            9 October 2024 at 7:21 pm

            the culpability of Egypt which resolutely maintains closed borders to Palestinians?

            […]

            Not to mention the rest of the Arab Middle East,

            Why should the most densely populated country in the MENA region, or any other country for that matter, play along with Israel to negate Palestinian demands for statehood by depopulating Gaza and the West Bank?

            • Muttonbird 3.1.1.2.2.1
              9 October 2024 at 7:33 pm

              Yeah, it's very sad that Belladonna who implores us to see the grey area cannot see the grey area in the response of Israel's neighbours. Can't see that agreeing to receive displaced persons is participating in Israel's program of ethnic cleansing and cultural genocide.

              Not sure Belladonna thinks much beyond parroting conservative talking points by reflex.

              • Belladonna …
                10 October 2024 at 8:44 am

                Yeah, it's very sad, that Muttonbird who is so outraged at the genocidal actions of Israel, is giving a free pass to the neighbouring countries who are refusing to allow refugees from that 'genocide'.

                Not sure Muttonbird actually thinks at all – they simply seem to be parroting hard-left talking points, with no understanding of the nuanced real world.

              • Drowsy M. Kram …
                10 October 2024 at 1:38 pm

                B's true colours are showing smiley

                For mine, "parroting conservative talking points" is on the money. And I reckon almost everyone else here sees it too.

                But why can't B, a self-declared "respectful centrist", see it? A lack of self-awareness; a triumph of self-perception over reality? Nah, I reckon they see it too.

                I'm coming around to the idea that it's useful to have B here, as a closeted righty in full flow.

                • Belladonna …
                  10 October 2024 at 1:49 pm

                  For my money, 'parroting left-wing talking points' is bang on. Whether or not 'everyone else here sees it' really depends on where on the political spectrum 'everyone else' lies.

                  Why can't DMK, a self declared "Marxist" see it? A lack of self-awareness? A triumph of self-perception over reality? Nah, they've zero interest in understanding different viewpoints, it might dilute the dialectic.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram …
                    10 October 2024 at 2:53 pm

                    Why can't DMK, a self declared "Marxist" see it?

                    smiley Hey B, no need to lie. Pretty sure I never declared myself to be a Marxist on this site – that's all in your head. The question is 'Why?'

                    What's the world coming to when a dyed-in-the-wool lefty can't speculate about the bonafides of a self-declared "respectful centrist".

                    To be absolutely clear (going full-Luxon) – you, Belladonna, laid claim to a "respectful centrist" identity on this site, and you, Belladonna, wrote (not for the first time) that I am "a self declared "Marxist"". Repeating a lie does not make it true, and the truth of your identity will set you free.

                    "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" does appeal to me, particularly in light of the state of spaceship Earth.

            • Belladonna 3.1.1.2.2.2
              10 October 2024 at 8:42 am

              Well, according to Jenny's analysis – to prevent a genocidal massacre.

              But, clearly, politics is more important.

          • Jenny 3.1.1.2.3
            10 October 2024 at 7:43 pm

            Belladonna @3.1.1.2

            9 October 2024 at 6:22 pm

            And, if you believe all of this, what is the culpability of Egypt which resolutely maintains closed borders to Palestinians?….

            You ask Belladonna, if Egypt is culpable.

            The genocide in Gaza would not be possible without Egypt's support.

            Egypt is a close ally of both the US and Israel.

            Egypt is the second biggest recipient of US military aid in the world. After Israel.

            https://www.reuters.com/article/world/factbox-most-us-aid-to-egypt-goes-to-military-idUSTRE70S0IN/

            The monstrous US backed totalitarian regime of Field Marshall Abdel Fattah el-Sisi came to power in Egypt in a bloody US backed coup.

            Of course Al Sisi and his regime are culpable.

            The Al Sisi regime has been instrumental in maintaining the illegal decades long siege of Gaza.

            The Abraham Accords that the US was trying to get other US aligned Middle Eastern totalitarian states to sign with Israel, is modeled on the Egypt/Israel Camp David Accords, that normalised relations between Egypt and Israel.

            …..The Israel-Egypt peace agreement was a watershed event, marking the first such agreement between the Jewish state and an Arab state. The breakthrough came in November 1977 when Egyptian President Anwar Sadat made a bold and unprecedented visit to Israel, and in a speech at the Israeli Knesset (parliament), addressed the Israeli people with a call for reconciliation and peace.

            Formal negotiations ensued the following September when Sadat and Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin joined U.S. President Jimmy Carter at the Camp David presidential retreat in Maryland….

            …..On March 26, 1979, the two countries signed a peace treaty on the White House lawn. Sadat, having gone out on a limb for the peace treaty, was vilified in the Arab world, and was assassinated in 1981.

            https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/camp-david-accordsisrael-egypt-peace-agreement-1978-1979?

            You ask if Egypt is culpable. Egypt is up to their elbows in the blood of the Palestinians in Gaza.

            You might also ask why the Abraham Accordes have failed. None of the US backed Arab dictators and autocrats want to end up like Anwar Sadat, vilified and depised by their own people. Anwar Sadat was assassinated by his own presidential guard.

        • Mikey 3.1.1.3
          9 October 2024 at 9:12 pm

          I'm baffled as to why these fine fellows haven't released the remaining hostages.

    • joe90 3.2
      9 October 2024 at 1:51 pm

      Pricks are living it.

      @ytirawi

      Khan Younis | Must watch video!

      “We killed thousands of Amaleks… Morally every Arab is a suspect object! .. We are not moral. To be moral is to kill all terrorists after interrogating them.. to be moral is to flatten and conquer all parts of Israel”

      Israeli officers Chai Hamo

      https://x.com/ytirawi/status/1752452789077147808

    • David 3.3
      9 October 2024 at 2:30 pm

      Jenny, a couple of points. Stuff is a privately owned company, it’s their decision to publish or print any advertising. There have been previous instances people/organisations have had their advertising rejected due to pressure from other organisations. Also, in this case it would have been highly insensitive to publish the advertisement on the anniversary, or close to it.

      As for news coverage, it is only natural we remember the anniversary of the vile attack on the Israelis and share their grief for the victims as well the kidnapping victims.

      In addition over the past few years, numerous people or performers have been prevented from hiring venues due to “safety concerns”, usually because their perceived political views are in conflict with other people’s beliefs.

      • Subliminal 3.3.1
        9 October 2024 at 4:16 pm

        From Middle East Eye:

        Nine minutes of testimonies from both Israeli soldiers and civilians explaining how the IDF killed their own people on October 7.

        The video includes footage of the literally hundreds of cars shot up by Apache helicopters. Multiple IDF admitting to use of the Hanibal directive and having no qualms about using it.

        https://x.com/CensoredMen/status/1843251755074940998

        • Nic the NZer 3.3.1.1
          9 October 2024 at 5:20 pm

          Amazing that the IDF is considered a legitimate military institution after this. They had purportedly rescinded the Hanibal directive after it first became public knowledge. Never the less were (according to testimony) still training with it in place and activated it across multiple branches with no qualms what so ever over extending it to apply to civilians.

      • David 3.3.2
        10 October 2024 at 9:36 am

        Are you seriously suggesting that October 7 attack was actually a false flag operation by the Israelis, even though Hamas has claimed responsibility for the deaths.

        • Nic the NZer 3.3.2.1
          10 October 2024 at 10:55 am

          Far from a false flag. This points to IDF and Israeli government incompetence.

          First the IDF ignored credible and correct intelligence that there was going to be a break out from Gaza. The result of the choice to ignore this meant that their (illegal) military blockade of Gaza completely collapsed and this resulted in the complete overrun of multiple military facilities. At least this part of the Hamas operation is acceptable as resistance under international law.

          One of the consequences of this complete overrun of the blockade was that the break out was an unanticipated success. Unfortunately this resulted in the break out into civilian areas outside Gaza and many individuals from inside Gaza joining in who were at best loosely affiliated with Hamas and the break out plan. In terms of the Hamas and others responsibility for the massacre this is where their culpability begins.

          Unfortunately at this time the IDF again began to regain a semblance of military control. This was unfortunate as they immediately invoked their Hanibal doctrine, determining that the primary military objective was to prevent anybody returning to Gaza be they Palestinian, Israeli, military or civilian. We will probably never have a reasonable accounting of how many of the death toll here can be attributed to the IDF actions, due to a lack of a proper investigation. We can however see from reporting of incidents that via the invocation of the Hanibal doctrine the IDF caused a very significant number of the total death count.

          This includes at least,

          • The tank shelling of Kabuz Be'eri, which a survivor describes as killing more than 10 remaining alive hostages. The militants seemed to be in the process of surrendering before this attack.
          • The tank shelling of another Kabuz, not the above one.
          • The shooting of multiple hostages in crossfire during fire fights at multiple other Kabuz.
          • The incineration of more than 70 vehicles with Apache launched hell fire missiles. There were definitely a significant number of hostages incinerated among this destruction. Notably these remains were quickly buried by the military.
          • Apache gunning down of people running with vehicles or being carried on trailers back to Gaza. One of the released hostages later described other alive hostages being gunned down by such Apache fire as she was being taken back to Gaza.
          • An airstrike being called in on a military control center which had been taken over by Hamas fighters who had taken at least some military personal hostage.
          • The tank shelling of vehicles attempting to return to Gaza (as described by the tank commanders in video linked above).

          It's certainly plausible, given the fire power of the IDF, that the number of Israeli victims of IDF fire run to the hundreds. At minimum it is necessary to conclude that through an incoherent military policy the IDF substantially participated in the massacre.

          • David 3.3.2.1.1
            10 October 2024 at 11:48 am

            The Israeli military reaction to the Hamas attack led to Israeli civilians being killed along with the Hamas fighters or terrorists.

            The Israeli civilian death toll would most likely to have been far higher if the Israeli military had not acted the way they did at the time. Therefore they will have saved far more lives than they accidentally killed. This is perfectly understandable and acceptable in this situation. It should not be a surprise to anyone. As an example the allies killed more French civilians while liberating France between June and September 1944, than the Germans during the entire occupation. The blame for those deaths lies with the Germans. Israel is not responsible for the deaths of civilians while their army regained control.

            • Nic the NZer 3.3.2.1.1.1
              10 October 2024 at 12:57 pm

              The Hanibal directive was specifically drafted to prevent Israeli (military personal) being taken hostage. It was created after a large prisoner swap resulted from a previous hostage of an Israeli tank commander.

              A very large number of these IDF massacres occurred while hostages were being taken back to Gaza. Certainly these people would have been taken hostage alive had they not been massacred. Dead or alive the fleeing people presented no further threat at this point in time.

              In terms of the hostage situations it is of course less clear how many of the hostages can have made it out alive. However, the usual way of resolving hostage situations is not to kill everybody in a massacre which conclusively results in a maximal casualty ratio.

              Directly in the case of Be'eri one of the hostage takers already had surrendered bringing out one hostage alive as they did so and giving the military a detailed picture of the locations of people and their numbers in the kibbutz. It's highly likely a competent negotiation would have resulted in a full surrender here with all or virtually all hostages leaving alive.

              All this demonstrates that the IDF would rather have potential hostages killed than taken directly as their military doctrine states. These actions had nothing to do with minimizing casualties nor did they result in minimizing casualties. Initial fatality counts by the IDF in fact counted about 300 of the invaders in the Israeli death count, implying the IDF wanted to attribute a maximum death toll to the day.

              Under current policies the IDF remain a massive danger to themselves and others. Notably the IDF friendly fire rate is horrific inside Gaza killing about 200 military personal (this is not counting the numerous hostages killed) and being the highest of any on going military operation.

              • Belladonna …
                10 October 2024 at 1:15 pm

                And, of course, none of this would have happened in Hamas (and whatever affiliated groups you may suppose) hadn't deliberately targeted civilians both for attack and then (in an attempt to gain immunity from IDF response) as hostages.

                • Nic the NZer …
                  10 October 2024 at 1:42 pm

                  That is certainly true, and in that case the Hanibal doctorine may only have been applied to military personal (which it was most likely drafted for).

                  Following the previous time this was applied the IDF subsequently claimed it was de-commissioned, as the Israeli public would still have preferred their soldiers be taken hostage rather than killed with their captors.

                  Or had the IDF and Israeli government taken the threat seriously then this entire breakout could have been prevented relatively easily with the re-deployment of personal back from the West Bank.

              • David …
                10 October 2024 at 1:58 pm

                You are attempting to shift the blame for the deaths onto the Israeli army. They are not at fault nor are they responsible for any of the deaths. Given the circumstances of the initial attack, the Israeli army response was governed by the information they had at the time, they had to do what they had to do. The deaths would have been far higher had they not. It is a military necessity to gain control of the situation as quickly as possible. Everything you bring up is a red herring and is of no relevance to the decisions that had to be made given the limited information the Israelis had available at the time.

                • Nic the NZer …
                  10 October 2024 at 3:04 pm

                  The IDF is responsible for deaths resulting from its official policy of shooting at potential hostages, even while the enemy is fleeing with hostages, how could they not be. Officially the policy was likely written in terms of shooting at captors looking to kill or incapacitate them and free the prisoners and this is likely the policy you are thinking is being described, it is not. In most militaries even doing this would be an extremely dubious order by a commander. You would not launch high explosives for this purpose because the consequences of firing high explosives are that everyone is almost surely killed.

                  In the case of the IDF they have actively trained to overcome these qualms about killing their own civilians in the same way most militaries train to overcome hesitation at killing enemy combatants.

                  This is how an Israeli tank commander described his decision,

                  “Something in my gut feeling made me think that they [his soldiers] could be on them [the vehicles heading to Gaza],” he said. “Yes, I could have killed them, but I decided that this is the right decision. I prefer stopping the abduction so they won’t be taken.”

                  How Israel killed hundreds of its own people on 7 October | The Electronic Intifada

                  That lays out very straight forwardly what the policy instructs to do, it is that live captives should not be allowed to be taken. That is the meaning of Hanibal to an IDF soldier. Of course these orders were carried out just according to training. It should also be highlighted that an instruction for a "Mass Hanibal" was transmitted from high in the command chain meaning to not to allow any live prisoners to be taken back to Gaza.

                  It is impossible to conclude that these decisions were a result of limited knowledge (they were part of prior training), nor that the excess deaths caused directly by the IDF as a consequence were unanticipated.

    • Drowsy M. Kram 4.1
      9 October 2024 at 9:43 am

      That’s a good read – thanks for sharing.

    • Tiger Mountain 4.2
      9 October 2024 at 11:05 am

      Yes, an informative piece from someone that actually “drives” ships. NZ online commentary has been along the lines of–see what happens when women are in charge…”

      • bwaghorn 4.2.1
        9 October 2024 at 12:08 pm

        online commentary

        The only time I read the online comments on stuff or fb are on days when I start to think humans ate intelligent, it always brings me back the real world in which the vast majority are thick as to short planks!

        • koina 4.2.1.1
          9 October 2024 at 1:10 pm

          Not really as thick as toowo short planks.

          More likely people have their comfort/safe zone frame of reference.

          People want to avoid the bash.

          People follow the path of least resistance out of necessity not always choice.

          What people say publically is rarely what we think privately.

          Hence why virtually no one on this site reveals their real name.

      • Visubversa 4.2.2
        9 October 2024 at 12:53 pm

        And then they slide effortlessly into lesbophobia, just to make sure you get the "whole picture".

    • Anne 4.3
      9 October 2024 at 11:15 am

      A big thanks to author, Tom Sharpe OBE for giving us such a clear and concise understanding of what might have happened to HMNZS Manawanui.

      The problems he outlined with the Royal Navy appear exactly the same as is occurring in NZ. I refer in particular to the huge loss of personnel.

      Having lived in the vicinity of Devonport for 40 years, there has been a noticeable drop-off of uniformed naval staff in the area. It was once a common sight to walk into a café and see a group of sailors/officers tucking into lunch. Now it is a rare sight indeed. Rather sad because they were such a big part of the local community.

    • Mac1 4.4
      9 October 2024 at 6:04 pm

      Good article with a clear message about mysogyny. I looked up how many shipwrecks have occurred so far this year- some 141 so far. I would hazard a guess that 140 were captained by men. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_shipwrecks_in_2024

  5. PsyclingLeft.Always 5
    9 October 2024 at 10:26 am

    Following on from the devastating Dunedin flooding. I had earlier made comments on a warning…

    Flood victims who have fair warning may have less case for compensation, MPs warn

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/529659/flood-victims-who-have-fair-warning-may-have-less-case-for-compensation-mps-warn

    And soon enough…hard hit Dunedin residents are wondering who is gonna help?

    Repeat Dunedin flood victims counting the cost again, call on council for solution

    A resident hopes the floods will put a buyout of flood-prone homes back on the agenda, but the council says the scheme didn't find favour with government.

    Last year Dunedin City Council looked at buying some homes in low lying areas as part of its climate adaptation strategy.

    Dunedin mayor Jules Radich told Morning Report on Monday the the government didn't favour the scheme and there was no plan in place at the moment for buyouts.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/530003/repeat-dunedin-flood-victims-counting-the-cost-again-call-on-council-for-solution

    Ok. When Luxury Luxon was queried about this….he wasnt aware. (I would say him not being Aware..was a given, but going to an actual devastated area and ?!)

    So Luxury Luxon and Mark Emergency canute Mitchell were a bit lost for words. Of ..you know, encouragement, positives, any fucking thing !

    PM side-steps questions on declined Dunedin flood risk mitigation plan

    Asked about a $132 million proposal from Dunedin City Council to central government to buy out homeowners at risk low-lying parts of Dunedin which had been turned down, Luxon said he had not been advised on it, and Mitchell said he would need to check the details.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/530051/pm-side-steps-questions-on-declined-dunedin-flood-risk-mitigation-plan

    I did link this previously too. Huge Respect, man.

    A Dunedin man has made his submission against the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill while wading through flood-waters in the city and playing Kora's "Politician" over a loud speaker.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/529873/a-different-way-of-storming-the-capital-submission-from-the-floodwaters

    • I Feel Love 5.1
      9 October 2024 at 5:24 pm

      "Flood victims who have fair warning may have less case for compensation, MPs warn" – Does that include farmers?

      • PsyclingLeft.Always 5.1.1
        9 October 2024 at 9:26 pm

        Does that include farmers?

        Maybe some special dispensation for compensation ? For those special cases. Only Just and Fair mind….

        Anyway..hope you all drying out down there : )….

  6. Bearded Git 6
    9 October 2024 at 10:49 am

    Starmer's disastrous start, because of which Labour UK is now only one point ahead of the Conservatives after three months in power, surely means it is time to bring back Corbyn?

    https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-labour-keir-starmer-lead-one-point-conservatives-new-poll-more-in-common/

  7. Jimmy 7
    9 October 2024 at 12:28 pm

    ASB have now reduced interest rates ahead of the reserve bank announcement today. Kiwi Bank dropped theirs yesterday. Normally they wait until after the announcement.

    Good news for anyone with a mortgage (particularly on a variable rate).

    Official Cash Rate: ASB makes mortgage rate cut after Kiwibank cuts lending rate ahead of Reserve Bank decision – NZ Herald

    • James Simpson 7.1
      9 October 2024 at 2:24 pm

      OCR cut to 4.75%. This is desperately good news and hopefully a sign that the worst of this recession is behind us.

      This will free us household budgets and encourage business to begin spending again.

      • Jimmy 7.1.1
        9 October 2024 at 3:00 pm

        Inflation down too is good news. Faster than I thought it would happen.

        "The Committee said that annual consumer price inflation was within its 1 to 3% inflation target range and converging on the 2% midpoint."

        • adam 7.1.1.1
          9 October 2024 at 11:52 pm

          Bullshit Jimmy it's still running at 3.3%. Unemployment is up, people are leaving the country in record numbers, and if we look at the quarterly wage rate rise in the private sector is 0.9% and public 1.8% – viewed in relation to quarterly inflation of 3.3% kiwis are going backwards.

          For working kiwis things are getting worse, much, much worse, for disabled it's a bloody nightmare. We are going down the shitter and idiots think one stat is the representation of reality. When it just the same bullshit spin they pulled the last time these economic wreckers were in last time.

          https://www.stats.govt.nz/indicators/consumers-price-index-cpi

          • Jimmy 7.1.1.1.1
            10 October 2024 at 9:18 am

            3.3% inflation was as at 17th of July per your link. There is an update next week and according to their words (not mine), it should be lower than 3% so within the 1%-3% target.

            I think many NZers with mortgages will disagree with you.

            • adam 7.1.1.1.1.1
              10 October 2024 at 11:38 am

              Deal with the facts on the table, not feelings.

              Even so 3% inflation, and with 0.9% wage growth is people going backwards. Which means people are still losing 2%+ of their income quarter on quarter, in effect, going backwards. Or is the math to hard for you to understand?

              I think many NZers with mortgages will disagree with you.

              And people on low wages and high rents might think your an idiot.

  8. aj 8
    9 October 2024 at 12:42 pm

    Very moving.

    From Watch For Truth: What were you doing during the genocide grandpa?

    • Subliminal 8.1
      9 October 2024 at 3:49 pm

      Also heartbreaking:

      A will found beneath the rubble of Rasha, a child only 10 years old, who was killed by the Israeli army in #Gaza:

      “Please don’t cry for me, as it would make me sad. I hope my clothes can go to those in need, and my accessories to Rahaf, Lana, and Batool. The bead boxes should go to Batool. As for my monthly allowance of 50 shekels, I want half to go to Rahaf and the other half to Ahmad. I’d like Batool to have my toys. Lastly, please don’t shout at my brother Ahmad. Please follow these wishes.”

      https://x.com/NourNaim88/status/1841406256109527448

      Could be part of the memorial in aj’s post

      • I Feel Love 8.1.1
        9 October 2024 at 5:26 pm

        Bloody awful, hard to even fathom children having to think of things like that.

  9. Subliminal 9
    9 October 2024 at 12:54 pm

    Middle East Eye's Peter Oborne interviews film maker Richard Sanders on his latest Al Jazeera film of Israeli war crimes in Gaza.

    He points out that there is nothing complicated or nuanced in any of the IDF posted videos nor from Israeli politicians or even civilians. When they are not overtly genocidal, they exhibit a pervasive, deep and extreme rascism towards Palestinians.

    On the subject of human shields he points out that there is absolutely no documented evidence of Hamas using civilians as human shields but on the contrary, numerous examples of the IDF doing so. These range from handcuffed and stripped to their underwear adults and children made to walk through buildings the IDF are too frightened to enter, tied to the bonnet of lead vehicles in a convoy and forced to walk between the tracks at the front of a tank. In Lebanon the IDF is setting up mortars beside UN posts to use them as shields. He points out that in all the IDF uploaded videos there is almost no combat video.

    In contrast, Jon Elmer at Electronic Intifada each week shows Hamas video detailing combat missions against military targets in areas that have been cleared of the civilian population. Jon is often left aghast at why Hamas never targets the medevac choppers filmed coming in to take out dead and injured IDF even as Israel bombs their hospitals into oblivion and executes doctors using snipers and torture while in detention.

    Richard maintains that it is extraordinary that all the western politicians, when confronted by the Gaza death toll immediately take the position that it is because Hamas uses their society as a human shield when as he says, a 22 year old beginning investigative journalist could find the evidence for Israel using human shields and be struck by the lack of evidence for Hamas doing so.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QI1qz2QtNG0

  10. SPC 10
    9 October 2024 at 2:54 pm

    OCR at 4.75%.

    It is at a lower rate and a lot sooner than it forecast not so long ago.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/money/350445138/live-reserve-bank-cuts-official-cash-rate-50bp-475

    It is now at the rate it was in Feb 2023.

    https://www.rbnz.govt.nz/monetary-policy/monetary-policy-decisions

  11. Adrian 11
    9 October 2024 at 3:29 pm

    It’s because anybody with any sense is not spending money fearing job loss etc. Money not going around leads to more contraction and more lost jobs. FFS.what else can you expect with a Finance Minister who can’t read or count.

    • SPC 11.1
      9 October 2024 at 3:53 pm

      There may be a fear of the Kiwi exodus to Oz continuing – and people selling up and taking their home equity (and small business) capital with them. Oz doing better under a Labour government.

      • Incognito 11.1.1
        9 October 2024 at 4:05 pm

        If the sellers are leaving for Oz, then who are the buyers and what will they do with their newly acquired investments assets (that are likely mortgaged)?

        • SPC 11.1.1.1
          9 October 2024 at 4:14 pm

          There has been a return of first home buyers of late (possibly backed with parental assistance with equity).

          I would guess hope for an increase in equity, when others join the market at cheaper mortgage rates.

          • Incognito 11.1.1.1.1
            9 October 2024 at 4:55 pm

            So, the NZ property Ponzi pyramid scheme (aka FIRE economy) continues where the asset-rich get richer?

            • SPC 11.1.1.1.1.1
              9 October 2024 at 5:03 pm

              It's set for a "modest" growth phase. The lack of consents matched by Kiwi exodus and a low rate of migrant inflow. Hopefully the "granny flats" will help keep rent growth in check.

              • Incognito …
                9 October 2024 at 5:18 pm

                I’d think that there’s some pent-up demand (pressure) in the system that will ‘relax’ when the interest rate is coming down further; the ‘unwinding’ is probably already happening or starting to happen but there will be the inevitable lag in showing up in the graphs & spreadsheets.

      • Jimmy 11.1.2
        9 October 2024 at 4:57 pm

        This surprised me that not that many Police are leaving for Aussie.

        https://www.sunlive.co.nz/news/352450-police-application-number-soar.html

        I thought we would lose more young ones to Australia.

      • Muttonbird 11.1.3
        9 October 2024 at 8:00 pm

        RBNZ is scrambling to stem the arterial flow of life out of the economy after the violent assault by Luxton and Willis.

        Good luck with that.

  12. SPC 12
    9 October 2024 at 3:31 pm

    The USA Electoral College

    Long version

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/what-you-need-to-know/530245/the-us-electoral-college-what-is-it-and-why-will-it-decide-the-2024-presidential-election

    Short version

    https://www.270towin.com/

    538 – 270 to win

    2016 306 R 232 D, Trump's huuge win

    2020 306 D 232 R, Trump robbed

    Democrats secure – 238

    GOP secure – 185 (+30)

    Marginals 115

    2nd district Maine and Nebraska, 1 each

    Michigan 15, Pennsylvania 19

    Arizona 11, Nevada 6,

    North Carolina 16, Georgia 16

    Florida 30

  13. SPC 13
    9 October 2024 at 4:58 pm

    The Water Well Done policy will result in a doubling of annual water charge cost to Wellington ratepayers.

    It is expected the average charge will go from $1700 to c$4000pa.

    The report said between $15-$17 billion needed to be invested in water infrastructure in the Wellington region over the next 20-25 years and current water charges were not cutting it.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350443508/wellington-region-water-bills-tipped-double

  14. Jimmy 14
    9 October 2024 at 5:10 pm

    Here's an interesting Stuff article for those who are interested.

    Kiri Allan reveals striking new pūhoro tattoo | Stuff

    • Incognito 14.1
      9 October 2024 at 5:23 pm

      I find your ‘interest’ in her bordering on obsession and a bit creepy, judging by your commenting history here. I mean, it doesn’t make for political debate, does it?