Budget analysis and reaction – The One Dollar Bill budget

Written By: - Date published: 3:12 pm, May 25th, 2017 - 129 comments
Categories: budget 2017 - Tags: , , , ,

Andrew Little calls it the ‘The One Dollar Bill Budget’, a $1 tax cut for cleaner on minimum wage. As usual it is the already well off who do the best out of National’s election year tax cut bribe.

Scoop has the best roundup of budget links and articles. A sample of some analysis and reaction…

Tracy Watkins: Tax threshold move an election bribe eight years in the making

Steven Joyce has delivered an election year Budget that puts money in everyone’s hip pocket with a big hint of more to come.

You can call it a lolly scramble or you can call it an election year bribe but with bumper surpluses projected and debt well below the norm in the western world this is the Budget National scrimped for over the last eight years.

Joyce delivered the Budget wearing his hat as finance minister but it showed the cunning of someone who wears another hat as campaign manager. …

Patrick Gower: Budget 2017 ‘The Cash Bribe Budget’

Steven Joyce has rained down cash on almost everybody.

But there is a catch: it doesn’t kick in until April next year – meaning you have to vote National come September 23.

It is a straight-out cash bribe.

It is a lolly scramble using the ultimate lolly – cash.

It is the ultimate election year Budget.

Brian Fallow: The better than nothing Budget

It is the better than nothing Budget. Steven Joyce has hardly thrown fiscal caution to the winds.

It would have been intolerable for the Government to crow about how well the economy is doing and project ever fatter surpluses and falling debt to GDP ratios while doing nothing about the pressure on the finances of lower and middle-income families.

Both the increases to the income tax thresholds and the changes to Working for Families tax credits are overdue.
…
These changes cannot take place until after the general election, so there is an element of political incentive to them It remains to be seen how Labour and the Greens will respond.

The broader context is that household finances are under pressure.

The dire state of the housing market in many parts of the country has pushed household debt, relative to incomes, to a very high level by historic standards.

The cost of servicing that debt is rising too. Mortgage rates have been rising for a year and are liable to continue to do so as global interest rates begin to normalise, given how much of the money the banks lend here has to be imported.

Meanwhile we have seen the bottom of the inflation cycle, the most recent read for the annual rate being 2.2 per cent.

And income growth is sluggish.

In the year ended last March average weekly earnings for wage and salary earners did not increase at all, when adjusted for inflation over the same period.

In these circumstances for the Budget to have entrenched yet another year of fiscal drag and continued the squeeze on Working for Families would have been a hard sell.

Because we are a stage in the economic cycle – more a hump if than a peak — where it is about as good as it gets.

Roll up, roll up: Budget delivers cash for workers

Workers are the winners in the Government’s election year Budget which delivers more cash in the hand to almost everyone – including $2 billion worth of tax cuts and boosts to Working for Families.

The centrepiece of the Budget was the Family Incomes Package’ which included a mix of tax cuts, and increases for many on Working for Families and the Accommodation Supplement – a package which will cost $6.5 billion over the next four years.

Finance Minister Steven Joyce said it was expected to benefit about 1.3 million families by an average of $26 a week as well as 750,000 superannuants and 41,000 students.
…
However, it is not all good news.

Some families on middle incomes will get less – or no longer be eligible for Working for Families payments – because the Government has dropped the income threshold at which the credits start to abate from $36,350 to $35,000 – and increased the rate at which the entitlements abate from 22.5 cents in the dollar to 25 cents in the dollar.

The Government had initially intended to phase those changes in over time until 2025 to give families time to adjust.
…
However, critics are likely to be unimpressed.

Labour has claimed the Working for Families payments were due to increase anyway – they are indexed to increase every time the CPI increases by five per cent and the last adjustment was in 2007. Since then the CPI has increased by 5.5 per cent.

The decision to bring forward changes to abatement rates and thresholds will mean many will also miss out.

The Accommodation Supplement was also overdue for an increase – it has not been adjusted since 2007 when it was set to reflect rents at the end of 2005.

See Grant Roberston’s: If this was my Budget: Grant Robertson

My Budget would be a plan to give every New Zealander a fair share in prosperity because right now, although the high-level indicators in the economy look good and some people are doing very well, after nine years of a National Government too many people are missing out.

It would start with getting the basics right: Housing, health and education – the building blocks of security and opportunity.

Labour’s plan for housing is that a secure, warm, dry place to live is the heart of strong communities and neighbourhoods.

Our Budget would launch KiwiBuild. This would build homes for first-home buyers to be sold at cost, and that money would then be reinvested to build the thousands more homes we need.

And the Budget would put the money in to make sure we start to end homelessness. You cannot raise a family in a car. Labour would not stand by and say that was okay.

Labour’s Budget would also address the tax loopholes that make housing a playground for speculators – no more using losses on your property portfolio to mean you don’t pay your fair share of income tax; no more overseas buyers making a quick buck on our housing.

https://twitter.com/grantrobertson1/status/867573564815192064

129 comments on “Budget analysis and reaction – The One Dollar Bill budget ”

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  1. WILD KATIPO 1
    25 May 2017 at 4:02 pm

    Grant Roberston

    ” You cannot raise a family in a car. Labour would not stand by and say that was okay.”

    ” Our Budget would launch KiwiBuild. This would build homes for first-home buyers to be sold at cost, and that money would then be reinvested to build the thousands more homes we need.”

    ” Labour’s Budget would also address the tax loopholes that make housing a playground for speculators. ”

    …………………………………………………………………

    I think I will be inclined to vote Labour for the first time in 3 decades despite being the party that fostered Roger Douglas and his destructive neo liberal ‘ deforms’. Which is tinged with sadness because Id just as soon as vote for the Greens or NZ First. But Labour gets my vote this time round.

    Unapologetically.

    • Jenny Kirk 1.1
      25 May 2017 at 5:34 pm

      Pleased to hear that, Wild Katipo. Definitely don’t think you should vote NZFirst – you never know which way Winnie will go. If enough baubles are dangled in front of him by the Nats, he’ll follow his eyes/nose !

      • WILD KATIPO 1.1.1
        25 May 2017 at 5:55 pm

        Yeah , its kind of painful , that tendency of Winston … but in in Winston’s defense, its a long long time ago now,… and back then neo liberalism had barely garnered a label,… and I still maintain Peters did what he did to try to lessen the effects of the viscous neo liberal reforms under Richardson et al… and through the years he has consistently demonstrated his ire at that ideology…

        I like Peters because he is essentially a moderate nationalist , he goes into bat for this country first, and is not afraid to speak out about things that are detrimental to this country’s best interests, such as standing against the TTPA emphatically . The subjects that beltway politicians like to deem ‘ populist’ are the very same subjects that align themselves directly with the globalists, – and it becomes a catch all phrase for them to label and smear anyone who opposes their agenda.

        Nope, I’ll vote Labour, but I would like to see both the Greens and NZ First in the new govt after the September elections. There’s good Kiwis in all three of those party’s. And this is all about the Kiwis this coming September.

        Its about us. The Kiwis.

        And nobody else this coming September.

        • Grafton Gully 1.1.1.1
          25 May 2017 at 6:21 pm

          The Kiwi label is a PC way to make immigrants feel included (as if some of them give a damn). Their grandchildren maybe – if they don’t leave as adults after the cheap education, welfare and healthcare they came here for. Thousands of New Zealanders who will be voting in September and NZF will be a strong option.

          • WILD KATIPO 1.1.1.1.1
            25 May 2017 at 6:52 pm

            Yep. And I don’t blame them one bit. I hope they do.

            I don’t use the ‘ Kiwi’ label as a PC term ,- I use it as slang for New Zealanders.

            Same as I use ‘ Aussie’ or ‘ Ocker’ in the same way for bloody Aussies. And yes, one of the things I like about Winston and NZ First is just that – NZ first. We’ve had enough of all this shit about ‘we need more immigrants ‘ when we have so many New Zealanders unemployed.

            We dont need anymore of Nationals bullshit about importing more cheap foreign labour here when we have so many of our own people languishing on bullshit wages and benefits.

            Fuck National.

            Lets get a REAL govt in power.

            We don’t want , or need nor ever asked for a bunch of globalistic neo liberal self interested subversives to run this country. Lets give them the bash this September and vote the suckers out.

            • Wayne 1.1.1.1.1.1
              26 May 2017 at 8:27 am

              Wild Katipo

              Remind me again what Labour/Green/NZF will do?

              Because the Greens and NZF have just voted for the tax threshold and Working for Families package.

              Grant Robertson proudly proclaimed he would not have had a single adjustment for tax thresholds and WFF. That it would all go on health, education and housing construction.

              Given that the Labour/Green Budget Responsibility Rules lock them into the same basic structure as the government, that means $2 billion extra for these things instead of adjusting tax thresholds and WWF.

              So the budget (and Labours response) sets up a a choice. Either more direct financial assistance to low and middle income families, quite a bit more in some cases, which is the National choice. Or zip to them, but more on education health and housing – the 50,000 houses in Auckland as opposed to 34,000 under National.

              It is a real choice but it makes Little’s criticism a bit bizarre. That there was not enough for low income families, when he would have given them nothing (at least nothing in direct assistance).

              And by the way you live in a democracy. The current government governs because it was elected three times in a row. So in fact they were asked to run the country, just not by you.

          • Bill 1.1.1.1.2
            26 May 2017 at 1:06 pm

            Its about us. The Kiwis.And nobody else this coming September.

            The Kiwi label is a PC way to make immigrants feel included (as if some of them give a damn). Their grandchildren maybe – if they don’t leave as adults after the cheap education, welfare and healthcare they came here for. Thousands of New Zealanders who will be voting in September and NZF will be a strong option.

            As an immigrant of these past 20 odd years, I can tell you straight that "the Kiwi label" in no way engenders feelings of inclusion.

      • Grafton Gully 1.1.2
        25 May 2017 at 6:27 pm

        Winnie shafted the wideboys back in the Wine Box days, looks after us oldies and
        criticizes the National/Greens/Labour consortium immigration scams. That’s a powerful platform.

        http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2017/04/peters-hits-out-at-labour-national-over-immigration.html

      • mac1 1.1.3
        25 May 2017 at 6:44 pm

        Jenny Kirk, “you never know which way Winnie will go. If enough baubles are dangled in front of him by the Nats, he’ll follow his eyes/nose.”

        Interesting to hear Bill English’s taunt about a Labour/ Green government led by Winston Peters- interesting in that such a thought might occur to a National government heading for the back benches.

        A government of National Reconciliation?

    • greg 1.2
      25 May 2017 at 5:59 pm

      i will be voting labour to

      i cant see how there is any surplus when health has been underfunded ,NZ super fund contributions cut making gen x and y bare the brunt of the boomer retirement .
      housing is an on going rolling disaster more like a ponzi scheme ,Auckland needs massive investment from public transport to the pipes .

    • Ed 1.3
      25 May 2017 at 11:22 pm

      Yes. The Greens under Shaw have become just another neoliberal party.

    • Chris 1.4
      26 May 2017 at 6:38 am

      If Roger Douglas have of been allowed to continue on with his reforms, then the country would b3 in such a better place now, than what it currently is.

      There would probably be no need for such things as working for families or paid parental leave, as families would be be able to live on one income.

  2. mickysavage 2
    25 May 2017 at 4:05 pm

    Andrew Little’s speech …

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNvAnmUHesU

    • WILD KATIPO 2.1
      25 May 2017 at 4:37 pm

      Andrew Little

      ”After 9 years this govt has discovered that wages are too little and too low”

      These,… globalistic neo liberal National party wankers ,… have no shame. No conscience and no integrity. They have had 9 years to do something about the economic mass decline of so many NZ working family’s – NINE BLOODY YEARS !!!

      Instead they have not only eroded working peoples rights and conditions, allowed zero hour contracts , sub- subsistence ( yes that’s right – sub subsistence !!! ) wages , enabled the conditions for Pike River to happen and NZs appalling health and Safety conditions at work , imported cheap foreign immigrant labour to drive down wages even more …

      Fuck National. They are anti New Zealander and pro Foreign Interests. We don’t need em. We never asked for their shit and its time to give them the political bash and vote them out!

      HINT TIME for the National party :

      * ( Its time we stopped taking orders from the ‘Council of 300’ , the ‘Rosicrucian’s’ , the Bilderbergers , the Mont Pelerin Society , the Council on Foreign Relations, the Club of Rome , the Priory of Scion , the ’13 family’s’ – and worst of all – those bloody Aussie banks , the bastards!!! – Bless em 🙂 – just cant bring myself to hate on the Aussies in quite the same way as the above for some reason)

  3. UpandComer 3
    25 May 2017 at 4:10 pm

    To give Credit to Andrew it was a better speech then last year. Last years was just an awful flailing blurt. This one was more coherent. I could actually understand what he was saying and it made a bit of sense. However it seems like pretty generic criticism.

    • WILD KATIPO 3.1
      25 May 2017 at 4:47 pm

      Generic?… perhaps because its such a vast field of ripe pickings for criticism .

      Honestly , – you could make a start in the early morning hours and fire a shotgun with buckshot all day long at the failings of this government and ALWAYS be guaranteed to make a hit , – and you would STILL be there in the late evening blaming away with that same shotgun , – and getting absolutely nowhere in reducing the numbers of those failures.

      They are that bad.

      I’ve made a promise to myself. When National are out of power I’m done with posting. I’ll be content. Job done. Happy camper and content . I loathe them that much.

      So you want rid of me? Vote Labour or the Greens and make sure this National arsewipe govt is voted out. Good for you and good for me.

    • mickysavage 3.2
      25 May 2017 at 9:25 pm

      Concern troll …

    • Ed 3.3
      25 May 2017 at 11:24 pm

      Troll.

  4. WILD KATIPO 4
    25 May 2017 at 4:35 pm

    Andrew Little

    ”After 9 years this govt has discovered that wages are too little and too low”

    These,… globalistic neo liberal National party wankers ,… have no shame. No conscience and no integrity. They have had 9 years to do something about the economic mass decline of so many NZ working family’s – NINE BLOODY YEARS !!!

    Instead they have not only eroded working peoples rights and conditions, allowed zero hour contracts , sub- subsistence ( yes that’s right – sub subsistence !!! ) wages , enabled the conditions for Pike River to happen and NZs appalling health and Safety conditions at work , imported cheap foreign immigrant labour to drive down wages even more …

    Fuck National.

    HINT TIME :

    * ( Its time we stopped taking orders from the ‘Council of 300’ , the ‘Rosicrucian’s’ , the Bilderbergers , the Mont Pelerin Society , the Council on Foreign Relations, the Club of Rome , the Priory of Scion , the ’13 family’s’ – and worst of all – those bloody Aussie banks , the bastards!!! – Bless em 🙂 – just cant bring myself to hate on the Aussies in quite the same way as the above for some reason)

  5. WILD KATIPO 5
    25 May 2017 at 5:04 pm

    ” The dollar bill budget.”

  6. Jeremy 6
    25 May 2017 at 5:20 pm

    If my sums are correct:

    For a couple earning $52,000 grand each under the current thresholds they will (cumulatively) pay $17,240 in taxes a year, under the new thresholds they’ll pay $15,120, not accounting for WFF changes.

    Seems the maximum cut a family can get is $2,120 – minus whatever they lose for the WFF changes (if they are eligible).

    For an individual earning $52,000 under the current thresholds they will pay $8,620 in taxes a year, under the new thresholds they’ll pay $7,560, not accounting for WFF changes.

    Seems the maximum cut an individual can get is $1,060 – minus whatever they lose for the WFF changes (if they are eligible).

    I think a rise in the 10.5% threshold to $32,760 (which I believe is the yearly minimum wage) with no changes to WFF would have really cut off Labour’s legs politically.

  7. alwyn 7
    25 May 2017 at 5:26 pm

    Can anyone explain where Andrew managed to get his figure of a dollar a day from?
    As far as I can see he’s got his decimal point wrong. If he had claimed $10/week he would have been a lot closer.

    A cleaner working 40 hours/week on the minimum wage would be getting about $33,000 per year. The exact figure doesn’t really matter for this calculation as long as it is between $222k and $48k.

    The tax on the first $22,000 will drop by 7% of $8,000 because of the increase in the 10.5% bracket from $14,000 to $22,000. The tax rate on anything above $22,000 will stay the same.

    This is a reduction of $560/year which is just under $11/week.
    I don’t think his simple arithmetic is very good, is it? Did he get Jacinda to calculate it for him?

    Mercy me. I have been allowed to return to the flock of commentators.

    • WILD KATIPO 7.1
      25 May 2017 at 5:29 pm

      Semantics.

      Alwyns idea of housing for New Zealand working family’s.

      Primitive Technology: Grass hut – YouTube
      Video for primitive housing you tube▶ 4:17
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEUGOyjewD4

      • alwyn 7.1.1
        25 May 2017 at 5:54 pm

        What on earth are you talking about?
        For the life of me I can’t see anything in my comment that justifies your opinion of my views on housing.
        Did you take the photo down in Takaka?
        http://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/92919962/rubbish-cars-and-campsites-left-at-shanty-town-freedom-camping-spot-in-takaka

        • WILD KATIPO 7.1.1.1
          25 May 2017 at 6:22 pm

          ‘For the life of me I can’t see anything in my comment that justifies your opinion of my views on housing.’

          You spoke about wages and taxation.

          I’m illustrating the end results of Nationals wages and taxation and how it affects the working people and the beneficiaries / unemployed.

          What you were trying to do was pick up on a peripheral point and trying to make a meal out of it. What the above vid was for was to demonstrate the big picture and end results of 9 LONG YEARS of National party bullshit.

          And in that it succeeded. Everyone knows what I meant. Excluding you. Which leaves you looking at the blurry background trying to justify what to all the rest of us is patently obvious. National is a failed self interest party which takes its cue from foreign interests.

          AND NOT from the motives of having the best interests of ALL New Zealanders.

          You can try and dick around with the figures all you want but NOTHING will detract from the bald faced truths of family’s not being able to afford the rent, having to sleep their family’s in cars and garages, three family’s living in a house designed only for one ,working long hours for below subsistence wages , – and ALL as a direct result of Nationals globalistic neo liberal policy’s.

          They’ve had their fun , … now its time to look for other employment. They are subversives and need to be gone. And its as simple as that.

          • alwyn 7.1.1.1.1
            25 May 2017 at 8:16 pm

            You do realise that the person Andrew was talking about is a single person working full time and with no dependents don’t you?

            It certainly didn’t seem to be about “beneficiaries / unemployed”.
            By your own definition his comment would seem to be “a peripheral point”.
            It certainly has nothing to do with “family’s not being able to afford the rent, having to sleep their family’s in cars and garages, three family’s living in a house designed only for one”.
            It is the situation of a single person with no dependents.

            I only commented on it because I couldn’t see how he could come up with the number. It turned out, and thanks to r0b for explaining it, I had missed one of the items in the Budget.

            Reading right through any political speech is rather depressing of course. I used to have to go right through the Budget and the thousand or so pages of detail in my work. Thank God that is now behind me.

            • WILD KATIPO 7.1.1.1.1.1
              25 May 2017 at 8:39 pm

              As if you are not pushing a political agenda there , mate.

              Pull the other one.

              OK , we’ll just let the NGO’s , the media articles over the last two years , the IMF, and the OECD data and reports among many others speak for themselves…

              Nationals latest band aid attempt at redeeming themselves amounts to nothing more that a weak election bribe. They are finished. Done. They know it, we know it, and even those who will now be voting NZ First instead of National know it.

              They’ve had 9 years to ensure a fourth term. They wont get it. Even Key saw it.

              Nationals fucked.

    • r0b 7.2
      25 May 2017 at 5:38 pm

      The working for Little’s claim is here, courtesy RNZ:

      https://twitter.com/radionz/status/867588184544133121

      They’re scrapping a $10 per week tax credit which you haven’t taken account of.

      • alwyn 7.2.1
        25 May 2017 at 5:49 pm

        Thank you.
        I had only just started looking at the budget when I saw this and hadn’t seen the bit about the other allowance being cut out.
        Pity about that cut. I always thought that an allowance for people who actually do go to work was a very good idea. There are genuine costs for going to work that should be able to be allowed for.

      • Andrew 7.2.2
        25 May 2017 at 10:50 pm

        You missed the bit where the govt will fully compensate any losses due to the removal of the tax credit. Only a third of those eligible currently claim it. They have set aside money to fully compensate those that do.

        “Independent Earner Tax Credit has been scrapped, those claiming it will be fully compensated”

    • Jenny Kirk 7.3
      25 May 2017 at 5:38 pm

      The answer Alwyn is in the post above, but obviously you didn’t read it. In the tweets.

      Richard Hills @richardhills777
      Has anyone worked out the discontinuation of the independent earners levy means $520 less a year for a whole lot of people too. #Budget2017

      Deborah Russell
      @richardhills777 Yes. They end up about $1/week better off. #dollarbudget

      And in case you don’t know, Deborah Russell is a tax expert.

      • indiana 7.3.1
        25 May 2017 at 5:49 pm

        Are Labour also advocating that people should remain on minimum wage for the rest of their working life? Or perhaps that are saying if you don’t want to pay higher taxes, stay on a low wage because once we’re in, we be your best buddies!

        • WILD KATIPO 7.3.1.1
          25 May 2017 at 6:33 pm

          Perhaps they are saying that being on a ‘ minimum wage’ shouldn’t mean you and your family’s can only expect to have to live in a car and not be able to afford rent as it is under this current govt …

          Or perhaps they are also saying that we need a progressive tax scale whereby corporate’s and the wealthy start to shoulder their fair share of the tax burden instead of minimizing their personal wages and using trusts to shield them from further taxation…

          Or perhaps they are also saying / hinting that the John Key tax haven status NZ has acquired over the last 9 years is going to come to an end… or even that the negative gearing , tax payer subsidized loophole used by so many housing / property speculators is going to be axed…

          Take your pick.

        • weka 7.3.1.2
          25 May 2017 at 6:34 pm

          That’s stupid. Labour want a living wage (i.e. an increase), and they’re don’t want to raise taxes in their first term.

          • WILD KATIPO 7.3.1.2.1
            25 May 2017 at 7:06 pm

            Maybe not in the first term, but sooner or later it needs to be done. And forward planning is NOT stupid. And the only reason they wont mention it in the first term is because they are scared to spook the horses. Lets talk straight. Its got to be done sooner or later by an incoming Labour govt or any other government.

            ALL of the above.

            That combined with a ‘ Living Wage’ is definitely creating a level playing field. After all , this is what we hear the neo liberals always constantly banging on about -so what exactly is their problem with it??? – or anyone else’s???

            • weka 7.3.1.2.1.1
              25 May 2017 at 7:12 pm

              I’m all for raising taxes for those with more than they need 🙂 Go after the financial sector too.

              • WILD KATIPO …
                25 May 2017 at 7:32 pm

                No problem with that , my old bean.

                Its payback time. 33 years of having to eat shit. There is no exclusivity of targets I and thousands of others wish to aim at either. They’ve brought it on themselves . And another thing. This is only going to get worse if there isn’t any halt to this process. Better it starts now than is left to fester for another decade.

                They call it lancing a boil in the medical profession.

              • Craig H …
                25 May 2017 at 8:48 pm

                The intention is to run some sort of inquiry/working party into the tax system and take a package based on the recommendations to the electorate at the next election.

                • weka …
                  25 May 2017 at 9:33 pm

                  that sounds like a good plan, thanks, I’d forgotten about that bit.

                  It would be good if TS ran some discussion posts on that next year.

        • UncookedSelachimorpha 7.3.1.3
          25 May 2017 at 8:42 pm

          The jobs that are paid minimum wage will still be there, even if the current incumbent moves on. Poverty wages are a deliberate and unnecessary blight that should not exist in a wealthy country like NZ.

    • red-blooded 7.4
      25 May 2017 at 6:29 pm

      Reply to Alwyn at 7. He didn’t claim $1 a day – he said $1 per week. See the tweet above:
      “New Zealand Labour ✔ @nzlabour
      .@AndrewLittleMP: ‘This is the Dollar Bill Budget’. A min wage worker w/o kids will get just $1 a week (the richest will get 20x that)
      2:49 PM – 25 May 2017”

      • alwyn 7.4.1
        25 May 2017 at 8:21 pm

        My dollar a day was a typo. I meant a dollar a week which was what Andrew said.
        r0b has explained the bit I hadn’t seen about the allowance that was being cut and which gives the net figure he was talking about.

        • Andrew 7.4.1.1
          25 May 2017 at 10:57 pm

          r0b failed to mention that those who are entitled to the current allowance will be fully compensated for it’s removal. So it is still $11 not $1.

          • Muttonbird 7.4.1.1.1
            25 May 2017 at 11:03 pm

            I heard that. A $2million dollar sticking plaster because they couldn’t think of anything else. Of course dildo Joyce will be fully aware that these most vulnerable people will not apply for this obscure entitlement.

          • alwyn 7.4.1.1.2
            26 May 2017 at 12:31 am

            No I don’t think it is $11.00. They segment of the population they are talking about will only get an additional $1/week.
            On the other hand they are being quite honest about what they are trying to do. They said, and they are carrying out, the provision of help to FAMILIES, not single people with no dependents.
            That is what Labour claimed was needed. Even Wild Katipo seemed to want the benefits to go to families so why complain when National are proposing to do that?

    • shorts 7.5
      26 May 2017 at 10:24 am

      saw it costed on a tweet yesterday…

      but the $11/week figure you present is by that tweet correct, but there was a $10 reduction in something else that left the $1

      sorry I can’t be more clear – I’ve looked for the tweet and can’t find it

  8. RRM 8
    25 May 2017 at 6:44 pm

    So the guts of it is:

    1) if you work, here is a $20 tax cut.

    2) if you are a useless good for nothing here is between $25 -$80 for your accommodation supplement so you can sit at home and drink more beer and have more kids.

    Definitely pays to be a bludger in this country.

    Why is Angry Little so against this? This is a Labour budget!

    • stever 8.1
      25 May 2017 at 6:49 pm

      Ha ha ha!

      Cherry-picking troll!

      🙂

    • One Anonymous Bloke 8.2
      25 May 2017 at 7:19 pm

      Meanwhile, on Earth, under the last Labour government unemployment fell to the lowest level since the 1970’s (~3% in 2007).

      So the notion that Labour encourages sloth is a transparent pathetic lie.

      Why are you parroting it? Stupidity or dishonesty or both?

    • WILD KATIPO 8.3
      25 May 2017 at 7:25 pm

      @ RRM

      Sooooo,… lets just start opening the books of these over paid corporate CEO’s and the annual salary they are on and the annual tax they pay , shall we?….

      And lets do a little maths on the tax scale and the impact on their lifestyle versus the amount of tax on the lifestyle of an unemployed or low paid workers has and see the end results…

      I’m sure we would see that miserable $20.00 tax cut wouldn’t even pay for that fancy bottle of wine required at that Saturday night barbecue in Remuera, – and that $25 -$80.00 accommodation supplement ( which actually goes to subsidizing the capitalist landlord -funded by the all too generous taxpayer , might I add ) wouldn’t even pay the cost of an average cheap night out at a restaurant for the wealthy ….

      You are an idiot living in fantasy land.

      • BM 8.3.1
        25 May 2017 at 7:28 pm

        That 20 dollars a week is an extra $1000 a year in the hand, nothing to be sneezed at

        On a side note, How are your digs going WK, got them sorted yet?

        • WILD KATIPO 8.3.1.1
          25 May 2017 at 7:54 pm

          That $20 a week is jack shit in today’s market and you know it. Four loaves of bread for the week , or a few packets of disposable nappy’s or $20.00 to juggle between choosing to pay the power bills, pay the doctors fees or go that extra 30 kilometers to the job the boss wants you at – the same boss who wont reimburse you for travel expenses.

          And don’t patronize me about where I live , creep . I’m happy to live in a goddamned bush hut away from scumbags like you. As I have done happily in the past for years . I don’t need your grabastic reliance on being locked into feeding bloated capitalist spongers to keep you fat and well fed to give me a sense of purpose in life.

          Fuck you.

          And I cant help it if your beloved National party is falling apart and being shown up for the cheap , sold out anti sovereign neo liberal subversives they are. That is not my problem.

          My problem is I just don’t like dishonest thieving bastards like these troughers in the National party. Get rid of them and we get rid of you.

          Comprender Amigo ?

          • BM 8.3.1.1.1
            25 May 2017 at 8:06 pm

            Still a $!000 dollars extra a year you [Can’t you do better than this? Epithet deleted – MS].

            Anyway, still a bit sensitive about that whole housing debacle incident I see why. can’t blame you too be honest.

            But, I’m happy to hear you’ve found a place/hole in the ground/damp cave where you can call home.

            Good for you.

            • In Vino 8.3.1.1.1.1
              25 May 2017 at 8:29 pm

              There is only one thing worse than an arsehole, BM. You qualify.

            • WILD KATIPO 8.3.1.1.1.2
              25 May 2017 at 8:31 pm

              Idiot. Im not old and I can see right through you and your shit. $ 1000.00 is chump change in the scale of discrepancy between a workers wages and that of even an average middle management workers salary per annum.

              You must live in some sort of Walt Disney fantasy land – anyone else can see that $1000.00 spread over a year is laughable when we have young family’s that need AT LEAST $ 1000.00 PER WEEK to live comfortably in a city such as Auckland.

              And don’t try that bullshit on me about ‘its cheaper to live in the provinces so they should move’… I’VE BEEN SELF EMPLOYED AND EMPLOYED STAFF , IN AUCKLAND AND THE WAIKATO.

              Been there, done that, idiot. Both sides of the fence.

              Where do idiots like you come from ?!!?… honestly?!!?

              As for my digs, arsehole, … I’m quite content in the same place – after I outed the late 70 something year old father moron who came round throwing on a blue dust jacket and tried passing himself off as an’ electrician’ because his son was too gutless to front up … lol – 30 years in the construction industry and some jumped up wannabe toff try’s that bullshit on me… as if , mate, as if .

              That’s the thing with greedy bastards… they are SO EASY to humiliate.

              But that orgasmic lust for those dollars turns em into prostitutes right before your very eyes. Even if it means you make them look like your servants. They’ll act like my dogs used to do to get their bones.

              So I treat em like dogs. You can see them swallowing their words as I talk to them. And you can see them realizing they aint dealing with the usual compliant cowed penniless worker. I love it. Its like watching a rooster scurry round with its crest down.

              And just as gutless.

              So much for the middle class and their John Key Bullshit English fetishes.

              You remind me a lot of them , actually…

              • BM …
                25 May 2017 at 8:43 pm

                Mate, you come across sounding like some deranged drunken old coot.

                Servants Lol, poor old prick probably thought he was going to get murdered and eaten by some unhinged lunatic.

                • In Vino …
                  25 May 2017 at 8:59 pm

                  Given your inherently superior position, BM, that response is just so full of compassionate, humane understanding. Or does it reflect your true nature?

                  • BM …
                    25 May 2017 at 9:03 pm

                    I did get a zero on some spirituality test I did a while back, does that answer you question?

                    • WILD KATIPO …
                      25 May 2017 at 9:54 pm

                      Yeah – was that a comparison to a plank of wood if you failed the test , buddy ?

                      I’ll tell you a few novice pieces of advice from an adept, idiot. Just for you.

                      There’s a lot of ways to be a King and a ‘ millionaire’ on this planet, you dumb bastard.

                      One is to be locked into servitude towards every other bastard who lords it over you. I’m sure you are all too familiar with being in this position.

                      The other , is not worrying about owning a thing and living totally free. And to do that – you’ve got to extricate yourself from parasites such as your self. Like living in the bush like I’ve done for years.

                      You answer to no one. You get up when you want to, you eat when you want to and you take a shit when you want to.

                      And when some corn ball arsewipe lightweight comes along and tries to compare their sad arse situation like you have to me… it fills me full of mirth.

                      I’ll tell you moron, … that the only reason I bother to comment on these forums is because I see the struggles of family’s… esp young family’s and I know what that was like , you little fucker.

                      And young family’s , workers, the unemployed and the impoverished elderly are the only groups I go into bat for . The vulnerable , the afflicted , and those who cannot fight back.

                      People like you make me want to shit broken glass out of my arse.

                    • James []
                      26 May 2017 at 7:47 am

                      Wow. For someone so free and content – you sure come across as bitter.

                    • Enough is Enough …
                      25 May 2017 at 10:24 pm

                      Weirdest rant of the day award goes to Katipo

                    • WILD KATIPO …
                      25 May 2017 at 10:37 pm

                      @Enough is Enough

                      And the most lacking in substance and long time fearful sniping from the sidelines and lacking in conviction goes to Enough is Enough.

                      Just what exactly was it you wanted to say again?

                      Doesn’t really matter really… does it.

                      Come back when you’ve got something to say. Guess I’ll be waiting here a long , long time…

                      Dumbarse.

                    • Enough is Enough …
                      25 May 2017 at 10:41 pm

                      I refer to my comment at 10:24.

                      Enjoy

                    • In Vino …
                      25 May 2017 at 10:46 pm

                      No, but it reveals your nature.

      • RRM 8.3.2
        25 May 2017 at 8:47 pm

        I LOVE how you say “over paid CEOs” like it’s somehow your business or anyone elses’ business what a company agrees to pay their CEO!

        Classic labour bitter and twisted politics of envy. Someone somewhere has got more than me, it shouldn’t be allowed, I want to elect a big bully who will take stuff off them for me!

        • One Anonymous Bloke 8.3.2.1
          25 May 2017 at 9:00 pm

          🙄

          Your rote-learned dogma has mould on it. You’ve been dumpster-diving in the right-wing pig bin again, and everyone knows the fare was stale before it was served the first time.

          Tuck in, piggy.

          • RRM 8.3.2.1.1
            25 May 2017 at 9:20 pm

            Everyone who’s got a job and a house (and that’s a lot of people) ISN’T bearing the drum online for more free shit. Only leftists with time on their hands.

            Maybe occupy a job or occupy a better one, instead of moaning that the government isnt delivering enough of other people’s stuff to you for free? Scary idea I know.

            • WILD KATIPO 8.3.2.1.1.1
              25 May 2017 at 10:33 pm

              Hey arsehole , – you like seeing family’s living out of cars , garages or three family’s in a house designed for only one family?

              You don’t?

              Then why are you supporting wankers in government that do?

              Is there something wrong with you?

              ” You LOVE how I say “over paid CEOs” like it’s somehow your business ”…

              Again , arsehole – then what business is it of any government to think they can pass the Business Roundtable/ NZ Institute instigated Employment Contracts Act ?

              Or legislate and set a ‘ minimum wage’ ?

              Have they got something they’ve got to hide or something they are afraid of ?

              So lets put this another way , shall we?

              We have the NZ Institute and the Employers and Manufacturers Association ,… so lets not split hairs to be a complete bunch of fuckers and liars , and lets admit that both of those organizations are nothing more than glorified business unions. Yet its THEIR business to ensure they can screw as much out of workers as they can. Influence governments , no less.

              Pervert democracy’s and pervert basic values and ethics even moreso.

              And you want that to continue unabated and unchallenged to justify your warped sense of the ‘ born to rule’ elitist philosophy to which you adhere to.

              Tell you what.

              You can get fucked.

              Matter of fact , – and being cordial about this , – I’ll ask the question : why the hell are you living in this country. Surely some shipwreck South East Asian country would be more to your natural sensibilities. Oh wait. I forgot. You operate here taking advantage of our tax laws while using Asian low wage sweatshops to produce shit which you can then sell back in NZ for inflated prices and not incurring NZ tax by using offshore tax havens and funneling that cash back to NZ at midnight. And then conversely take advantage of the situation by exporting expensive shit made in NZ by low paid NZ workers to Europe or the USA… a bit like swamp Kauri , milk powder and water that a certain National party MP currently does…

              Yeah I forgot.

              Its OK for the elite who shit and fart and piss the same as we do to do these things but when it comes to forming a lobby group such as a Trade Union and demanding a LIVING WAGE , – an actual wage that we can LIVE OFF , – then we are just a bunch of peasant cunts for even agitating for that , aren’t we.

              AND YOU CALL WORKERS GUILTY OF THE POLITICS OF ENVY ?!!?

              Mate.

              You are EXACTLY the type of classic neo liberal , self interested , disgusting ball of shit hypocritical wanker that not only gives the National party a bad name , – but willingly fills its ranks , rises to mid rank levels then spills their guts and embarrasses them just like Ngaro did.

              We need far more just like you to ensure Labour wins this coming September.

              • Enough is Enough …
                25 May 2017 at 10:53 pm

                How is this not moderated?

                • WILD KATIPO …
                  25 May 2017 at 11:17 pm

                  How are you not moderated?

                  Because I used the F word and you shrank behind and sniped from the sidelines trying to appear as if you had some sort of moral high ground?

                  At least I said it how it was, – all you have done is try the time honored troll ‘ piling ‘ technique . Coming across with assumed decency and moderacy yet being a nasty vindictive sarcastic little gremlin.

                  What a coward.

                • JC …
                  25 May 2017 at 11:57 pm

                  Moderated… Fuck off! ee..Are you a fascist… or afraid of free speech!
                  just because you don’t like the language ..

              • RRM …
                25 May 2017 at 11:46 pm

                Are you high? I don’t sell stuff from asian sweat shops.
                Try again. Your strawman is in another castle 😉

                • David Mac …
                  26 May 2017 at 12:26 am

                  I point to CEO salaries not because I think their pay should be mine but because they occupy one end of a comparison scale.

                  People aren’t feeling left out because they aren’t getting 1.2m a year. They’re feeling left out because their child is ill and the car fuel gauge is on E.

                  There is a large sector of New Zealanders that are surviving. They’re not freezing or hungry, but it’s their kids not going on the class trip. It’s their kids having to choose between learning the piano or football boots. I want to live in an NZ where they can do both.

                  Can’t you see how it chews at people when our elected servants stand up and tell us all how well our nation is travelling and some of us can’t raise a bus fare to visit our Mums.

                  Just surviving is not a Welfare State, it’s a state of just surviving. That’s cool if we’re all struggling, hanging out in Mogadishu, but we ain’t.

                  • WILD KATIPO …
                    26 May 2017 at 12:46 am

                    Well said,… its not an issue about cold hard numbers,… weve all had that up to our back teeth for 3 decades. And still we get preached at with that same old tired flogged out dogma. Its propaganda. Its done to justify the greed of a small sector and the use and abuse the larger group.

                    Its group control. And we are all well over it. Its run its course and those same clapped out , worn out mantras just wont have the same effect any more.

                    And the incredible thing is these right wing nutters still seem to think a cheap recourse to their favoured default position is going to cut it and quieten down the voters.

                    It wont. Not any more . Its over.

                    We are sick of your shit.

                    So get over it. We DEMAND change from here on in.

                • WILD KATIPO …
                  26 May 2017 at 1:23 am

                  @ RRM

                  Son – I don’t give a shit if you are using tax loopholes in a housing portfolio to write off losses using negative gearing or simply licking the rear end of your superiors to curry favour and advance your position or dickarsing round doing petty contracts for a large corporation.

                  If you are a National voter turning a blind eye to whats going on in our society and only thinking of yourself and your little corner of the world and happy to let kids suffer and die in cold damp moldy state houses or kids fail in their schooling because they have to study in the dim lights of a car used as a home then you are a bonafide 100% genuine arsehole.

                  I don’t give a shit what you do or how you earn your living . So long as its ethical and honest. But the last time I looked,- its kinda hard to be both if you are a National party supporter.

                  In fact its impossible. Its like trying to mix oil and water. It just doesn’t work.

                  And if you vote National or even dare to be some sort of mealy mouthed apologist for them , – then you deserve every bit of derisive commentary coming to you.

                  • RRM …
                    26 May 2017 at 8:20 am

                    You sound like a bludger to me.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      26 May 2017 at 8:29 am

                      And you sound incapable of independent thought: a string of mindless borrowed slogans and delusional prejudice.

                      If you believe the things you write, you’re a fool.

                    • Stunned Mullet …
                      26 May 2017 at 9:17 am

                      Are you talking to RRM or Wild Katipo ?

            • One Anonymous Bloke 8.3.2.1.1.2
              26 May 2017 at 5:43 am

              Is that what you actually believe? That people with houses and work to do don’t get involved in politics?

              The notion of successful private sector lefties is beyond your feeble imagination, eh, despite the fact that one is rubbing your face in it right now.

            • Ed 8.3.2.1.1.3
              26 May 2017 at 6:24 am

              Troll.

            • Ch_Ch Chiquita 8.3.2.1.1.4
              26 May 2017 at 10:12 am

              Everyone? Well, I guess not everyone as I have a job (actually I have more than just a job, I have a business supporting 6 families) and a house and I’m not just bearing the drums online but actively working to change the government because I care. I also understand someone needs to do the low skilled jobs and they also deserve to be able to live a respectful life and support themselves.

              I don’t want the government to deliver anything for free – I want the government to make sure people are paid enough to support themselves. Scary idea I know.

        • Stuart Munro 8.3.2.2
          26 May 2017 at 12:58 am

          A lot of NZ ‘CEOs’ don’t own their companies or any significant fraction thereof.

          Take the case of Jenny Shipley – an unusually greedy blight on humanity with no business or human skills – she’s an unsuccessful primary teacher who went into politics. This cancerous individual masquerading as a human is somehow on the board of a newly created China/NZ bank. The bank was funded with our money, so by golly it IS our business.

          This is not about envy, it is about the misdirection of public money.

          NZ businesses are pretty light on the entrepreneurial end of things – parasites like Shipley are the rule, not the exception.

          There are one or two who did make it on their own, but the majority did not.

          There is every reason to tax the devil out of corrupt vermin like Shipley. CEOs are tainted by the association and will suffer with her.

          • James 8.3.2.2.1
            26 May 2017 at 7:53 am

            “Take the case of Jenny Shipley – an unusually greedy blight on humanity with no business or human skills – she’s an unsuccessful primary teacher who went into politics”

            Yet she has gone on to serve on the board of huge companies and was NZ’s first woman prime minister.

            Not bad.

            What have you done?

            • Robert Guyton 8.3.2.2.1.1
              26 May 2017 at 8:13 am

              Stuart Munro:

              “Take the case of Jenny Shipley – an unusually greedy blight on humanity…This cancerous individual masquerading as a human…parasites like Shipley…corrupt vermin like Shipley…”

              James:

              “Not bad”.

              • Stunned Mullet …
                26 May 2017 at 9:15 am

                Even if it is James you’re baiting that’s some pretty poor ratfucking Robert.

                • Robert Guyton …
                  26 May 2017 at 9:23 am

                  I had to look it up, Stunned, and I can’t quite understand what you mean by it, but okay, I can’t expect to bait elegantly all the time.

                  • james …
                    26 May 2017 at 9:37 am

                    Just once would be nice – but you just come across as soooo desperate. following me around trying to score a pathetic point.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      26 May 2017 at 12:46 pm

                      You think Shipley’s efforts are “not bad”, James?
                      That’s deluded and craven, imo.
                      As SaveNZ says:
                      “Anyone that defends her know’s nothing about business!”
                      That’s you, James.
                      Take a bow.

            • saveNZ 8.3.2.2.1.2
              26 May 2017 at 9:36 am

              Shipley’s an idiot. Look at Mainzeal, bankrupted during a construction boom!

              Anyone that defends her know’s nothing about business!

              NZ should and could be, a much better country. We have a safe, educated population and a beautiful country to work in.

              Many of our best and brightest still leave, with little high value and highly paid work available (in fact declining wages and conditions), and we replace them with low wage migrants doing menial work and subsidised by the tax payers or off shore players buying up assets and property and sweating the assets.

              Profits is now one of our biggest exports! There is a difference between small amounts of foreign investment and a banana republic. Our exports profits now indicated we are a banana republic and Natz want to escalate that.

              Globalism has failed and so has neoliberalism. Look around, Brexit, Trump, USSR and the EU – their people are in conflict with each other, mostly because of the inequality that neoliberalism has caused and conflicts over wars that were started under dubious contexts of WMD and many call illegal.

              Further afield, the middle east – getting worse by the day.

              Polar caps are melting. There is fear that the sea is losing it’s ability to sustain life.

              More natural disasters.

              Yep to the shortsighted like Shipley and Key, just keep it all going as long as you make a shitload of money for yourself, but they don’t live in a bubble (or maybe they do) but when they get carjacked like in South Africa – maybe realise that having extreme poverty and a growing Meth problem actually can effect the rich.

              Ironically many came here from South Africa/China/India for a better life, now they are blindly voting for the Natz to replicate the same issues in NZ, that they were trying to escape from – poverty fuelled crime, corruption and pollution.

              If you need to build more prisons than universities then you are doing something wrong as a government.

            • The New Student 8.3.2.2.1.3
              26 May 2017 at 10:32 am

              “Take the case of Jenny Shipley – an unusually greedy blight on humanity with no business or human skills – she’s an unsuccessful primary teacher who went into politics”

              Yet she has gone on to serve on the board of huge companies and was NZ’s first woman prime minister.

              In that case, all these supposed “bludgers” are beautifully qualified to govern this country and serve on the boards of huge companies.

    • The New Student 8.4
      26 May 2017 at 10:25 am

      OH those white-collar bludgers! Such a drain on society aren’t they?

  9. mosa 9
    25 May 2017 at 6:50 pm

    My prediction is National have just won the 2017 general election by having the largest share of the vote.

    You can argue all the semantics to the cows come home, this announcement today will put money in the pockets of those voters who decide who governs and will react to the message ” strong and stable ” and i get my money so i don’t care about the rest, its neo liberalism at its best.

    To stay relevant Labour must respond.

    Housing alone won’t win them the election.

    • BM 9.1
      25 May 2017 at 7:04 pm

      Yeah, they’re a bit fucked, aren’t they?

      That $20 a week is a $1000 extra in the hand for a large % of kiwi workers, Little must be feeling a bit deflated after today.

      • Stuart Munro 9.1.1
        25 May 2017 at 8:48 pm

        Rubbish – that’s $20 in the landlord’s hand – until we bring in rent caps.

        So a waste of space budget as might be expected from a waste of space government.

    • saveNZ 9.2
      26 May 2017 at 10:16 am

      Nope, Labour and Greens can still win. But if they play the Natz game and make everything about bean counting of $20 p/w rather than an talking more about their alternate ‘vision’ of NZ.

      NZ want to continue to live in a beautiful unpolluted country that is mostly owned and operated by Kiwis and to create high skilled innovative industries here, sustainable agriculture and fisheries and an enviable lifestyle of safety and freedom.

      That should be the Labour / Green vision, not just same old Natz vision with an extra $20 p/w that starts in a year but you may not have a job by then anyway as someone who will work for less, or has connections with the government will get it. And you may be robbed a gunpoint soon, cos we save money stopping benefits so that that person now needs to rob to survive, or we continue to ignore the Meth problem, the biosecurity problems, – just pile more short term tourists in here, make more toilets than trees, have fake carbon credits so that polluters keep going, no need to change your ways with the Natz, pay the Natz donations rather than modernise your business!

  10. JC 10
    25 May 2017 at 7:13 pm

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/the-house/collections/the-house-on-demand/audio/201845191/the-house-for-655pm-thurs-25-may

    Homeless and inequality yes….

    While so so important! Sadly not a thing, (NOTHING) for the environment… for either… except the greens

    “The Government’s visionless budget has failed to deliver the big solutions to the housing crisis and climate change New Zealanders want and instead is plastering over the cracks, says the Green Party.

    “This do nothing budget will leave a legacy of more poisoned rivers, more extinct wildlife, and a nation divided into those who own a home already, and those left further behind,” said Green Party Co-leader James Shaw.”

    https://yournz.org/2016/05/27/greens-on-the-budget/

    $20 million a year cut for DoC https://www.budget.govt.nz/budget/pdfs/estimates/v3/est17-v3-conser.pdf …
    2:13 PM – 25 May 2017

    I could go on…

    • Roflcopter 10.1
      25 May 2017 at 7:42 pm

      If the Greens spent more time being a proper environmental party, open to working with whichever major party was in Government, then they’d have leverage (they have proven in the past that this is possible).

      Instead, they flat out refuse to, and spend most of their time focusing on anything but the environment.

      Turei needs to be turfed out; at least Shaw looks like someone who could bring some good cross-party initiatives to the table.

      • weka 10.1.1
        25 May 2017 at 8:07 pm

        I think you will find that it’s National the refused to work with the Greens this time round. Plus National have just cut the home insulation programme. I think it’s safe to assume that there is no point in trying to get National to do right environmentally, they’re literally hopeless.

      • WILD KATIPO 10.1.2
        25 May 2017 at 8:11 pm

        ” at least Shaw looks like someone who could bring some good cross-party initiatives to the table.”

        It was Shaw that caused the watering down of the Green Party. It is Shaw that needs to get arseholed out of the Green Party. Shaw is a compromise politician. His avarice and lust for power/ endorsement of neo liberalism by proxy has ensured the Greens have been made weaker.

        He is the ‘ Roger Douglas ‘ of the Green party.

        He needs to be sacked and replaced.

        Smartly.

        • weka 10.1.2.1
          25 May 2017 at 10:09 pm

          The membership chose him, and short of him doing something really extreme I’m guessing he can’t be sacked. Also, if the Greens have been compromised by Shaw what does that say about the membership that chose him.

          I like him and think he is good for the party. If NZ wanted a hippy Green Party it would have voted them into govt a long time ago.

          • WILD KATIPO 10.1.2.1.1
            25 May 2017 at 11:09 pm

            ‘ The membership chose him, and short of him doing something really extreme I’m guessing he can’t be sacked.’

            * Sad , TBH. I can only guess he and his supporters deliberately misrepresented himself and his credentials when the Greens were going through a period of relative aimlessness and feeling the needed for a catalyst.

            ‘ Also, if the Greens have been compromised by Shaw what does that say about the membership that chose him.’

            * The answer to that is found in my above comment.

            ‘ If NZ wanted a hippy Green Party it would have voted them into govt a long time ago’

            * Here is where I find that quite condescending and almost offensive. It was the HIPPY element that created the Green Movement. Not the Shaw’s of this world and the business sector. Ever. The Shaw’s of this world only came onboard for one of two reasons : one was to realize personal opportunity’s for self advancement. The second was to subvert a movement from within.

            I strongly suspect Shaw as having both the above motives in rising to the Greens leadership. There is NO WAY you can compare Jeanette Fitzsimmons to Shaw , for example.

            And as we have all seen , this Greens foray into romancing the neo liberal right wing has seen a general drop in popularity for them. A drop in popularity that was possibly less from its membership and more from the wider so called ‘ hippy’ voting public.

            And one has to start asking the questions WHY.

            • weka 10.1.2.1.1.1
              25 May 2017 at 11:14 pm

              Ok, so tell me 3 things about Shaw that make you think he is neoliberal. I think you made up the stuff about Shaw’s motivations, so let’s leave that out of it for now and look at the evidence. Maybe you are seeing different things than I.

              I think the hippies are right. I’d prefer them to be in charge. My point wasn’t denigrating hippies, it was pointing out that NZ won’t vote for them (yet).

              I think your assessment of the membership and the co-leadr vote is way off. And patronising.

              • WILD KATIPO …
                25 May 2017 at 11:28 pm

                Ill certainly get back to you on that. And it gets back to when Shaw was brought in. He ‘ seemed ‘ to be far too eager to embrace neo liberal policy’s,… it was evident when the Greens flirted with siding with National right back at the beginning… before the MOU.

                And it almost seemed as if the MOU was a shoring up of public concerns about the direction the Greens were heading in.

                That was when it became evident. After that , we have seen a continual decline of the Greens in the polls. It is not just my observations that ‘ something’ has happened to the Greens. Many other commentators have said the same…

                It also doesn’t matter so much that ‘ NZ’ will or wont vote for the ‘ hippy’ thing either. Its a general principle that it takes activists to start the movement- and generally those activists are the first against the wall. But over time , the middle or bulk of the voters start to move in the very direction the activists originally pointed to.

                You lose that quality , you get what we have now. A dangerous, anti democratic , watered down , bullshit situation like we have now with National.

                But dont get me wrong either, Id far rather have the Greens in there with Labour than not. I just do not trust Shaw until he demonstrates a bit less willingness to sidle in with big business and a bit more back to the basic issues of what the Greens were originally all about.

                You could say every movement has to mature into diversity ,… but like Labour, there are core issues they should never move away from.

                And we have seen and know all too well what happened to Labour post 1984.

                I would not like to see that sort of perversion happen to the Greens.

          • saveNZ 10.1.2.1.2
            26 May 2017 at 10:23 am

            Personally think people need to give Shaw a chance. He’s trying his best. I think an activist type co leader would appeal to Green voters more as Metiria is already the ‘corporate one’, but, whats done is done.

            Do we want 3 more years of the Natz social destruction of our country? Labour and Greens can’t be worse and they are obviously going to be better.

            • saveNZ 10.1.2.1.2.1
              26 May 2017 at 10:28 am

              Also don’t knock hippies, in fact many Hippies are now baby boomers and crucial voters. Remember how people voted Jeanette most trusted to babysit the nations children.

            • weka 10.1.2.1.2.2
              26 May 2017 at 10:30 am

              The Greens vote has steadily gone up since lessening the hippy vibe and putting the suits in front view (Norman and now Shaw). The value of Shaw is that he’s making critical connections with the suit class in NZ. We actually need those people on board if we want to head towards a social democracy. Otherwise it will be imposed by a left wing govt and then rolled back a decade later when the govt changes sides again. What we want is for society to change across the board and that has to included the business classes.

              “I think an activist type co leader would appeal to Green voters more as Metiria is already the ‘corporate one’, but, whats done is done.”

              But they tried that already and it didn’t work. The thing that irks me is people who’ve never voted Green all these years now thinking they know what the Greens should do to get ‘Green voters’. Well the Greens already have most of the Green voters, what they’re after now is mainstream NZ voters who are ready to start voting Green. And I think there are far more of those than there are of annoyed hippies.

              The Greens are easily the most left wing party in parliament. People can get bothered by Shaw, but when you look at the policies, they’re solid. IMO we want that influence in government, and we want the Greens to have as many MPs as they can get so that that influence means more. So I agree, L/G will get better, but L/NZF won’t.

              • saveNZ …
                26 May 2017 at 10:38 am

                I disagree, Green strategy was working, Green steadily increased their vote until last election and that was when the ‘corporate’ strategy came out and they stagnated.

                Also there is the issue of timing. Green issues are now very mainstream and climate change is no longer denied by most governments. It’s the Greens time.

                This is the time the Greens should be hammering Green issues.

                Socialist issues like housing get very little voter share with parties like the socialist party. Maori issues are well represented with TMP, Mana and Labour already strong, so joining that fist fight is just going into a angry fist fighting direction where the main issue of the Greens (Environment) is being neglected.

                That’s my view. If the Greens get off the social issues (again very well fought for with Natz, Labour, ACT etc) and back to their core value, they will GET the voters who feel Natz have failed on the environment AS WELL AS their core voters who voted for them last time.

                • weka …
                  26 May 2017 at 10:48 am

                  Personally I think part of the slight drop in vote last time was due to Norman bungling the whole working with National thing. Plus Dirty Politics (thank god Hager got his book out well before the election this time) 😉 Plus KDC. And from what I remember the pro-business thing had been going on for a long time by then. Norman got *exactly the same criticisms and the party got better with him as co-leader.

                  People who value the environment, who would they vote for currently if not the Greens already? The Greens easily outstrip all other parties on environmental issues. Clean water is one of the main election issues, alongside housing, and they’ve been working hard on the water issues. I can’t see how National voters who are concerned about the environment would shift their vote to the Greens if the Greens pretended that they weren’t into social justice any more.

                  The thing about social justice (and this includes Māori) is that it’s not possible to separate that out from the environment, and the Greens have always been a social justice party.

                  The Greens want change. They’re trying to shift NZ as a culture, not just win this election. And they’re largely succeeding in that (hence climate change and the environment being mainstream concerns now).

                  • saveNZ …
                    26 May 2017 at 11:08 am

                    Totally disagree with your comment Weka. Few voters research the policy – it’s what is ‘out there’ being said up to the election that sways people’s votes.

                    Voting is either by habit (you always vote for the same party) or it’s swing and on the moment before the election. Last election right before the last day National put ‘ give National your party vote’ on all their signs.

                    The Greens mistake last time was to spend too much time attacking Internet Mana making them look frightened of competition – they claimed to believe in freedom of speech and a fair trial and Dotcom got anything but that, but not a peep out of the Greens in fact, it looked like they would be keen to extradite him themselves. That may or may not have been the case, but that was how the Greens position looked in the MSM. It looked like a double standard and that the Greens lacked integrity.

                    Labour made the same mistakes too, and in the fist fight, the focus went off Natz, and all the in fighting stopped 1 million people voting for anyone left and the Natz sailed through.

                    Green’s mistake this time seems to be relying on voters don’t need reminding about their strong environmental policy and joining the very crowded debates on housing and piecemeal issues.

                    Totally works for the Natz to keep voters solely concentrated on economic issues and not on anything else.

                    • saveNZ …
                      26 May 2017 at 11:23 am

                      Even since Rainbow Warrior there has been fear against US foreign policy. The Nation watched the FBI organstate a raid on Dotcom a NZ citizen that looked like a Hollywood movie and interfere in our NZ justice system.

                      That was wrong in every sense of justice and the Greens and Labour response was wrong by minimising and ignoring it.

                      Brash’s lost with his ‘gone by lunchtime’ approach was gone himself.

                      Greens lost parts of the Greenie vote as Lefties grappled with what had happened was Internet Mana right or the Greens and Labour? If they were not sure, they declined to vote.

                      Foreign governments interfering in NZ domestic policy is still a big fear for Kiwis. Look at TPPA. Not enough capitalisation on that by the opposition.

                    • weka …
                      26 May 2017 at 12:52 pm

                      “Few voters research the policy – it’s what is ‘out there’ being said up to the election that sways people’s votes.”

                      True, but the Greens are pretty good about getting PR out there about their policy. They’re not separate things.

                      As I understand it the Greens approach in this election campaign is that they believe that people likely to vote for them already understand their environmental cred do the Greens are focussing on letting those voters know *who the Greens are, especially with an eye on economic credibility because that is what prevents more people voting for them.

                      Same with the TPPA etc. People already know where the Greens stand on those things. It’s not that the environmental stuff is on the back burner, it’s still there, but it’s alongside other messaging.

                      As for last election, I think there were lots of complicating factors and as I said below, you and I are probably both right and wrong. All the things we’ve brought up no doubt had an impact. Myself, I believe the critical thing that will make a difference this time is the MoU and the presenting of L/G as a credible and reliable govt on waiting.

                • saveNZ …
                  26 May 2017 at 10:55 am

                  In short, once people have enough money, they look for lifestyle, safe food, water, personal safety, health, educational, democratic and environmental safety.

                  Under the Natz there has been a lessoning of safety standards.

                  That is why the Greens are often 2nd choice for National voters.

                  Only about 35% of Kiwis are doing terribly. The rest are probably doing well as property is booming. But people are not fools, they know safety is declining under the Natz, even if they feel well off.

                  Labour Greens should capitalise on that.

                  • weka …
                    26 May 2017 at 12:44 pm

                    I think there are a significant number of conservatives who might vote Green, but it’s a small significant number not a large one. Which is why I didn’t support Norman’s approach of courting National. I think what is more likely to happen is that Labour pick up National voters and the Greens pick up Labour ones, as well as both parties picking up some of the apolitical vote and possibly even the non-vote.

                    In reality, I’m sure both of us are right and wrong. As far as I can tell the reasons why people vote varies hugely and it’s very hard to pin down anyone other than the steady who know who already know they’re going to vote for.

                    • saveNZ …
                      26 May 2017 at 1:11 pm

                      @ Weka, I can agree with that!

                      One thing that keeps the Natz in power is that they try every little bit and every way to win. It’s not just one thing, they just keep going and going and going and getting votes here, there and everywhere (even importing them).

                      It reminds me of America’s cup when USA won when it looked like NZ would win. Apparently USA just keep trying an trying to win in what at first looked like certain defeat – until they did.

                      Last election, Labour should have won. They didn’t, Natz turned it around by cheating, strategy, MSM control and money. Who knows but they did it. Labour did not match them in determination and intensity due to all the screw ups fighting amongst themselves.

                      Labour seem to be really trying to win this time and hopefully they will do so. But I feel the Greens are not trying enough or maybe in the right way to win. They expect to get 10% and anything else is a bonus.

                      Both labour and Greens, need to do what it takes to win and try to grab every last vote they can, get friends to help friends to vote, and make voters feel important and on their side to defeat National. Those on the side of the environment need to be encouraged by Greens their vote counts.

                      In 3 years whether or not some people own a house or not will not determine their entire lives, but if TPPA goes through, our water and assets sold off and the welfare system decimated to a USA style prison system and the environment permanently lost to oil exploration, polluters and sold off. Then a lot of that is irreversible. That should be the message.

                    • weka …
                      26 May 2017 at 2:01 pm

                      I think National did go hard on the nasty last time, but I also think that Labour weren’t ready and it showed. We might have liked Cunliffe, but he failed to sort out the internal problems in Labour and he couldn’t stand up to Key and the barrage of abuse that came from National, the media and his own party. I think this time it is different. Little has by and large sorted out the internal issues. not enough to suit me, but enough to let the voters know that Labour is stable and competent. And that’s what matters to the swing voters. Plus they have a competent coalition partner in waiting.

                      I think the telling is going to be once the campaign gets into full swing. How much nasty will National do? Where will the media side? Will Labour hold up? Will the Greens shine? Will TOP be a fly in the ointment? Will Peters trump everything else? Too soon to tell I think.

                    • weka …
                      26 May 2017 at 2:03 pm

                      I’d like to see Labour and the Greens stand up more strongly on the TPP. Labour are more in favour of it though, so not sure how that will work out.

                    • saveNZ …
                      26 May 2017 at 2:24 pm

                      I also think that Greens/Labour should talk to Sue Bradford. I have a lot of respect for Sue Bradford but feel she is wrong to be telling the media that she would not vote for anyone and Labour/Greens are just as bad as National.

                      You can’t be a poverty advocate who is advocating National is just as good as any other choice!!

                      By all means tell beneficiaries not to vote, sarc! That will be a tick for the Natz and I don’t think beneficiaries are going to have a welfare system in 3 more years. Private prisons, TPP, armed police, lower wages and conditions and fewer jobs, corrupt justice system, RMA reform that takes community rights and public assets away from the most vulnerable, massive homelessness.

                      Is that really a good example for beneficiaries, for Bradford to say I’m not voting????

                    • weka …
                      26 May 2017 at 2:37 pm

                      I didn’t realise she was saying that. I agree, that’s bad. For me the main thing this year is to change the govt. I think that Labour and the Greens need to do that with integrity, so not sell out for votes. But from a voter perspective, there is changing the govt or not and IMO not a lot else matters.

                      I don’t think people’s personal needs to feel good about who they vote for is that important either, but then I don’t feel bad about voting Green and they are a relatively good cultural fit for me in many ways. However I would vote Labour if I thought it was important and I’ve never voted Labour. I suppose what I mean is that we need to get over this thing that voting is supposed to be about our personal needs for ideological contentment.

                      Very disappointed in Bradford if she is telling people not to vote.

      • saveNZ 10.1.3
        26 May 2017 at 10:31 am

        @Roflcopter, working with Natz worked so well for ACT and The Maori Party popularity . sarc.

  11. Keith 11
    25 May 2017 at 7:37 pm

    Dear oh dear oh dear, Tracy Watkins has all the analytical skills of a person reading the top three lines of an eye chart, does she not?

    All she did was vomit out a National Party press release. Is that the best she can do?

    How about this for a realistic headline;

    “April can’t come soon enough”: so says property investor spokesman.

    “Things are getting tough out there. We’ve hit a ceiling on what tenants can afford and interest rates are creeping higher and we are overloaded with debt. Thank God Joyce listened to us, he had to of course because the whole model is toast if he didn’t”.

    “Anyway a 2 billion dollar tax payer injection is just what we needed for now. See how we go in 2 years time but the hand will be out, rest assured!

  12. JC 12
    25 May 2017 at 7:39 pm

    _To quote Rod Oram… “We have certainly worked hard to stand still. Our growth in hours worked per person was the third fastest in the OECD 2009-14.

    But we aren’t working much smarter, or creating significantly more value from our work. In 2009-14, our labour productivity growth was the lowest in the OECD along with Mexico, Israel and Norway…. ”

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/on-the-inside/331594/budget-2017-nz-working-hard-to-stand-still

    Apologies to quote RNZ mostly…, Just I find a resonance..

    Big Surprise.. I understand they received a Top up of c several million $…

  13. Incognito 13
    25 May 2017 at 10:25 pm

    With their infamous surgical precision and highly targeted & measured approach National has for the ninth time managed to extract the patient from the wisdom tooth.

    The major surprise in the Budget was the lack of any surprises; it was so National, so bland, so unimaginative. It was like a Don Brash home-made lunch gone by lunch time; we will have forgotten about it next week (Tuesday at latest).

    There’s absolutely nothing, not a whiff, of fresh innovative thinking, of new solutions to old problems that persist like the putrid smell of rot & decay because the same-old-same-old tinkering has not and will never make one tiny bit of difference. Yet National’s motto remains ‘steady as she goes’.

    I have no words to describe my disappointment …

  14. Scott 14
    25 May 2017 at 11:19 pm

    I am an Act Supporter and I totally understand Capitalism and its incredible merits. (WHEN DONE PROPERLY) This disgusting disgraceful if a incompetent inebriated stinky government has no idea what capitalism is, or even free markets.

    This sick evil crony Capitalism funding their weird mates , the housing market is not taxed and now they have the audacity to add more tax money to the accommodation supplement to go directly back into the landlords like a feed back loop. They should literally be hanged for high crimes.

    They think they know capitalism – yet they have a regulation system which makes sure old business models are kept, they fund Motorways as if its a capitalist idea. It is not capitalist to put money in motorways its a political decision. I am so angry with National MPs who don’t understand Capitalism and need to vacate their seats to people who do. (Starting with Jamie lee Ross piece of junk
    Under the Free market model we must vote for a change in Government. Why. Because the free-market works in the right situations the first being: a level playing field . we have to go left before we can go right again.

    Labours Policy’s are our only chance for a real county in this election. I love Capitalism and free-markets and that is why I will support New Zealand First / Labour collation.
    train young people to have a job, look after health for young, care for people, make housings and then in 15 years we may be able to have a real economy where people are free to use their abilities to improve man kind!

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