CHL’s Tarras Airport Idea is Unbelievably Stupid

21 comments on “CHL’s Tarras Airport Idea is Unbelievably Stupid ”

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1. Tricledrown 1

   1 September 2023 at 3:43 pm

   This is a dumb idea wasteful to the extreme back roads not designed to take large numbers of vehicles QLDC will have to fund this massive infrastructure upgrade. Wanaka airport was going to be expanded no longer viable Queenstown airports viability is under threat. If Queenstown bound tourists come from tarras then the Kawerau gorge road will be even more dangerous and will take $100s of millions for fix to cope.Over tourism is happening already in Queenstown. Labour shortages accommodation for workers non existant the other infrastructure such as sewage and potable water also will need huge investment otherwise the Clutha and Kawerau rivers will become open sewers.This dumb idea should be shelved now before more money is wasted.
2. Mike the Lefty 2

   1 September 2023 at 5:37 pm

   When eyes are lit up by dollar signs nothing else matters.
3. adam 3

   1 September 2023 at 5:45 pm

   But Ad think of the children.

   Of course national will support a white elephant, I think they would be dumb to force it through legislation though.

   Build it, they will come. Is a move tag line, not how to run things is a boiling world.

   Way past time the air industry played ball.
4. Graeme 4

   1 September 2023 at 10:50 pm

   My take on Tarras is that it's a spoiler to Auckland Airport's dreams of becoming the only widebody airport in New Zealand.

   They would love to extend their near monopoly on international services and make it total. Their plans, through their 24.9% shareholding of Queenstown Airport to expand operations a Wanaka were a game to get jets there and then expand, fast.

   I'd be more worried about National bringing in empowering legislation in AIA's favour to get 20 jets a day onto the current Wanaka airport. They've got form, National steamrolled the RMA with an Order in Council to wipe out a case Sam Neil and mates took to the Environment Court to stop jet services into Queenstown in late 80's / early 90's.

   Tarras has got potential as a transport logistics hub, with better location to serve the future growth areas around Wanaka and Hawea than Cromwell. Whakatipu is getting close to its growth limit, many more people and their cars and the place just won't function any more. So the growth pressure will move to Upper Clutha.

   My long term vision for transport into Central Otago would be a modern rail link to Canterbury through the Mackenzie, for freight and medium speed passenger. Ideally the rail would extend into Whakatipu and provide an alternative, and preferable, transport mode into the area.
   • Ad 4.1

     2 September 2023 at 7:41 am

     Great response Graeme; yours is a longer memory of the region than mine.

     I agree with the sentiment of Christchurch alone breaking the AIAL near-monopoly on international travel. When you think about how hard it is for real competitors to break into our super-concentrated markets in electricity, supermarkets, healthcare, sea ports, telecommunications and much else, there's sympathy.

     Another way to look at it is Canterbury seeking to control Otago through its investment arm, because Dunedin Holdings or ORC has no investment interest in QAC. Clearly Dunedin Airport has just stalled and there's no cooperation that could propose a cooperative alternative to a new Tarras Airport.

     The QAC anti-activists and majority shareholder simply refuse to let Wanaka Airport expand to meet unmet future demand. So this is a natural market move for CIAL to make in that sense.

     I also agree that the Whakatipu basin is reaching its growth limits, and we are likely to see more growth around Cromwell and in Wanaka expanding to the Cardrona. But Central Otago must surely be able to sustain strong growth with a ceiling on total number of flights. If Milford can ask the question of capping total tourist numbers, so can Otago.

     Also with Auckland Council selling out of AIAL to a much smaller minority, there is now zero chance of public policy able to direct it.

     But there's more to life than markets. An impact the size of a new airport needs central government policy outcomes put over it, not just a resource consent application.

     I really like your rail idea. Unfortunately we've been waiting 30 years already for just one stretch of new rail from Whangarei to its own port. So idea is what it remains.
5. Roy Cartland 5

   2 September 2023 at 7:41 am

   God forbid this country's natural beauty is left unspoilt for the people that live here. I'd go further than unbelievably stupid and say it's catastrophically malevolent. It's like they truly want to ruin the place, they obviously see that.

   They simply can't be that stupid, it must be malicious.
   • Trev 5.1

     2 September 2023 at 6:49 pm

     There are the websites now days where you can see aerial photos of places. Suggest you have a look at the site. There is nothing natural about it. It is covered in irrigated industrial agriculture next to a hydro lake surrounded by hills that were dug out looking for gold. That valley was ruined years ago.
     • Ad 5.1.1

       2 September 2023 at 7:46 pm

       That's a really poor excuse to make it worse with 800 hectares of tarmac.
   • Hunter Thompson II 5.2

     3 September 2023 at 3:58 pm

     But ya gotta have growth Roy. That's all that matters if you are a politician.

     I went to Wanaka years ago when all it had was a 4 Square store. You couldn't pay me to go there now.

     Tom Scott put it correctly when he said the country can stand only so much concrete.
6. Ad 6

   2 September 2023 at 10:14 am

   Maybe a correction to my line about rail. Kiwirail and Auckland Council are in alignment for a new heavy freight line between Avondale and Onehunga. Designated in 1940s.

   Maybe in my lifetime.
7. Bearded Git 7

   2 September 2023 at 1:48 pm

   Ah but the rumour is that both AirNZ and Qantas want Tarras so that they can bring wide body planes into Central Otago which currently they can't.

   If this is true then Tarras is a certainty and Queenstown airport is history. (it is rumoured that the land it sits on is worth $1.5 billion, and carefully developed could bring hi tech businesses and intensive more affordable housing to Qt so maybe the business case for Tarras is pretty good)

   Not a good climate change case though methinks.
   • Graeme 7.1

     2 September 2023 at 8:21 pm

     Queenstown business won't give away ZQN easily, the product is totally dependant on having a jet airport in the basin, and normally only minutes from the hotel. An hour on a bus through the gorge isn't going to cut it. There's lots of figures quoted about the value of the land ZQN sits on, and it's very valuable real estate, but the airport is worth much more to the community, business and social, than the value of the site.

     Unfortunately ZQN has become the regional airport for the South, Trans Tasman for south of Waitaki, and domestic for Central Otago and Northern Southland. This doesn't sit well with the majority of residents, who would prefer a smaller, locally focused airport, or no airport. About half passengers are from outside Whakatipu, mostly Central and Wanaka, so there's a business case for an airport in Central. The airport company has been pursuing a 'dual Airport' strategy, and resorting to all sorts of semantics around denying they intend jets in Wanaka. The airlines want an alternative to ZQN, for market competition, and an alternate when ZQN is fucked up by weather or accidents. Diversions, and they're quite frequent, put a good premium on fares into ZQN.

     A jet capable airport is inevitable in Central, it's just a matter of where. The existing Wanaka airport is big enough, but flight path would be virtually over Wanaka so a tough sell. Tarras has gone for flight paths over Cromwell and Lindis which might be more acceptable, unless you're in Bendigo.

     I can see a runway being built at Tarras, competing and complementing, rather than displacing, ZQN. But that runway will be part of a much larger logistics infrastructure development that will include other modes, leveraging on an international gateway through Christchurch.

     A much less preferable option would be 3000m runway developed by Queenstown and Auckland Airports on another site in Upper Clutha. This would compete directly with Christchurch, probably relegating them to minor airport status, and bringing a land use and associated industry more suited to a major city rather than semi rural Otago.
     • Bearded Git 7.1.1

       2 September 2023 at 10:12 pm

       I agree with much of that Graeme. But if AirNZ and Qantas call the shots (and maybe others such as Air China, Emirates etc) which I think they do, then Tarras will happen. if Tarras happens Queenstown airport is no longer viable. End of.
       • Graeme 7.1.1.1

         3 September 2023 at 7:49 am

         It's Auckland Airport that's calling the shots by being the predatory monopolistic company that it is. Christchurch is responding to that existential threat and came up with Tarras, which fills the same function as Queenstown Airport's dual airport strategy but on a more achievable site.

         ZQN will continue the same as it would under Queenstown's dual strategy, but maybe a bit smaller (not a bad thing, it's got a bit dominant) and a bit more exclusive. Tarras will take the Upper Clutha demand, substantial now and will only grow with Upper Clutha, and diversions. Tarras will also allow a lower cost model to develop with cheaper fares into the more distant airport (Dunedin and Invercargill are too far away for this) and current, or higher fares into the more convenient airport.

         With freeing current airport land for other uses, Tarras will make the current Wanaka redundant and allow Wanaka to expand without airport physical and noise constraints. The current Wanaka airport site is the third, with the airport moving further out of town as the town grows, and it's still got the town coming at it.

         It's a very similar situation to what's happened in Queenstown commercial leasing with the retail and commercial developments at Frankton. Rather than sucking all the businesses out of central Queenstown, the Frankton developments have created spaces that have been filled by higher value tenants, rents have gone up by 20%+ and demand is even more intense.

         The only thing I can see 'threatening' ZQN air operations would be the emergence of a new transport mode. If that's modern rail, then the airport would be the logical place for a terminal, the two modes have similar footprints and could co-exist happily.

         The debate isn't Tarras vs ZQN, it's Tarras vs another site in Upper Clutha, or maybe Five Rivers. Both would be a much bigger airport and dramatically change the economy of the whole South Island.
         • Scud 7.1.1.1.1

           3 September 2023 at 1:30 pm

           Quite an interesting thread,

           But everyone has forgotten one crucial thing and that it is. The current Queenstown Airport is quite marginal for Jet Pax Op's even since they started to fly into there expect for the BAE 146's & that is the RSA over shoot/run is not currently World's best practice. Indeed anyone landing or taking off in Queenstown on B737 or A320/ 321 that can't over shoot or misses V1, V2 or V3 is going to run start into a bung earth wall once it runs out of RSA and it won't be pretty afterwards.

           I doubt any of the local hospitals would be able to handle a mass casualty event like that as well.

           God help in casualty who's in the 1hr Goldilocks Zone either.

           In some ways I'm in favour of Tarras, but in some ways I'm not?

           There is Wanaka?

           You also have Invercargill Airport, where you could rebuild the Rail line back to Kingston and the catch the boat?

           You also have Alex Airport? But from memory that also has problems I think?

           Then there is the long term effects with CC as well, which I don't need to go on & sound like a vinyl record on a stereo system LoL.
           • Graeme 7.1.1.1.1.1

             3 September 2023 at 10:25 pm

             It's a credit to the air crews and the procedures they operate under that safe jet operations have occurred into Queenstown. The current RNP approachs a much smoother and accurate than the old VOR / visual regime. Only incident so far was a 146 about 10m off the Shotover end right at the start. The runway is longer and wider now, it was pretty basic at the start of jet ops, and loads were limited, initially 80 px in 737-200.

             Now it's full loads on A321 domestic, and 737-800 across the ditch with slight limitation going to Brisbane on a bad day.

             The runway is still rather short, is limited by geography so has crosswind issues in a stiff southerly or nor west. So lots of go arounds and diversions. A bad day at ZQN isn't nice.

             Invercargill and Alexandra are too far away from Queenstown, 2 hours in a bus, Dunedin 4 hours. Not really marketable in a world of instant convenience, especially when the market is pretty sold on the current ZQN setup.

             You don't want to think too much about a bad accident or natural disaster here. It gets really ugly really fast. Plenty of helicopters, 2 dedicated medivac with more an hour away, but only a very basic hospital. A good car crash they can handle, bus or plane would stretch things. Large earthquake, Alpine fault is close and there's a couple of 100 km long faults 10 -20 km to east that could cause a very bad day. In that case we'd be on our own for a while.

             The best option for rail in today's economy would be down from Christchurch through Mackenzie. Probably get to Tarras within reason, getting from there to Queenstown could be another matter. Would be nice if it was achievable and gave a modern passenger product that got you to Christchurch in a couple of hours, then the current airport would be more than adequate for some time.
8. Molly 8

   3 September 2023 at 8:57 am

   Queenstown Airport is notoriously difficult to land and takeoff from. IIRC, Air NZ only uses experienced pilots on any leg that includes Queenstown, and they undergo site specific training.

   I haven't been able to find flight diversion stats for the airport to see if this is a significant problem.

   Found this, but too difficult to read on my device:

   https://www.queenstownairport.co.nz/media/Corporate/Annual%20Report/2022-annual-report.pdf
   • Scud 8.1

     3 September 2023 at 1:35 pm

     Yes, the RSA at the Western of the Runway is currently not to World's best practice, one day Queenstown Airport will run out of luck and a B737 or A320/321 will run out runway slam smack into that earth bung wall and it won't be pretty either.
   • joe90 8.2

     3 September 2023 at 1:51 pm

     Queenstown uses Required Navigation Performance, a system that uses satellite data to calculate an approach and monitors the aircraft's vertical and lateral movement, which requires a shed load of pilot experience, training, and simulator time.

     Technology enabling evening flights at Queenstown Airport
9. Graeme 9

   3 September 2023 at 10:08 am

   Some light reading of the issues involved here, report discusses capacity and social issues with the current Queenstown airport and possible paths to resolve these. It's from 2020 and 200+ pages.

   https://www.qldc.govt.nz/media/0xkdujeq/mj_socioeconomic-impacts-of-ql-airports_final_report_15062020.pdf

   It covers four scenarios from QLDC's prior processes, Tarras is sort of left field and comes in between Jenkins' scenarios 3 and 4, but close to scenario 4. The QLDC NIA envisioned something bigger than Tarras, or Tarras is being pitched as smaller than the NIA,
   • Bearded Git 9.1

     3 September 2023 at 3:02 pm

     Tarras is "left field" because they don't want to face reality and consider it.

     I still say Queenstown airport is dead if Tarras goes ahead. Forget about Auckland Airport-they have been strategically sidelined by the Tarras development and cannot stop this happening. My understanding is that Tarras has room to put another runway in aligned to fly towards the Upper Clutha-noise will not be a major issue as planes will be quite high over Wanaka. Tarras also has plenty of land for all the associated services.

     Queenstown will gradually become unviable as flights swap to Tarras.

     The excellent info re the dangers of flying into Queenstown above, and the sheer value of and opportunity offered by the real estate under Queenstown airport will mean it will close.

     Not sure about Wanaka. It may be used for scenic flights, flying training/teaching and other services but it too may not be viable. Its operation as a jet capable airport has been roundly rejected by the community, including myself.

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