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Citizenship is a human right

Written By: - Date published: 9:40 am, July 29th, 2021 - 81 comments
Categories: australian politics, Gerry Brownlee, human rights, International, jacinda ardern, Judith Collins - Tags:

There is a poor lost soul who is both a New Zealand and Australian citizen who in 2014 chose to travel to the Middle East to be part of a community supportive of Islamic State.  Her name is Suhayra Aden.  She has spent most of her life in Australia but was born in New Zealand and has dual citizenship.  She has two children who were born in the Middle East but who are also New Zealand citizens.

Using its reprehensible citizenship stripping law Australia has taken away her Australian citizenship leaving her to be New Zealand’s problem.  They did this even though she left Australia for Syria in 2014 before the law was in force.  The decision has caused some fraying of the Trans Tasman relationship.  And the New Zealand Government has agreed to accept her and her children back into the country, essentially because it had no choice.

Radio New Zealand has the details:

Suspected of links to Islamic State, Aden was born here but raised and radicalised in Australia, a country she’s called home since she was six years old. It made Australia’s decision to revoke her citizenship stick even harder in New Zealand’s craw.

Australia dumped its responsibility squarely in New Zealand’s lap, bullishly and unapologetically. The angry response and pleas for co-operation from Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern went unheeded. The promise from her Australian counterpart Scott Morrison that it won’t happen again is a hollow offering.

No one should be surprised Australia refused to bow – consider Morrison’s own domestic audience and his country’s long-held hardline stance at the border – it was never in its interests to give any quarter to someone with links to a brutal terrorist organisation, even in the absence of specific charges or allegations.

The last comment however misses the big point.  Citizenship is a right and even if you are a ratbag, or a totally delusional thinker, you should be entitled to retain your passport and your ability to return to your home country.

As I said earlier there are some pretty fundamental human rights at stake.  Just check the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights if you need proof.  Protected rights include this one:

Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.”

And these two:

Everyone has the right to a nationality …

No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

Of course Australia has not been the best at recognizing international human rights and respecting the rights of an individual.  Just read any of the Standard posts about Peter Dutton to realize this is another example of weaponised brutality for political advantage.

Until recently Aden and her children were being held in Turkey.  Negotiations are now concluded and they will be returned to New Zealand.

As Pablo at Kiwipolitico points out in this very persuasive post Aden has not been accused of being involved in any overt terrorist activity.  He has described her as being a concubine and the description appears to be accurate.  Certainly Interpol have not treated her as a person of interest for criminal charges and you get the impression that she is someone who does not present a threat.  Pablo suggests that she was not involved in any violence activity and may have been held against her will.

So what will National and Judith Collins do?  I am afraid Judith’s response yesterday was rather predictable and she did not rule out having the same law that Australia has.

From Newshub:

National isn’t happy, with leader Judith Collins calling the decision a “total disappointment” on Wednesday.

“We got done over by the Australians and it’s not like she had anything to do with us other than she happened to be born here, left when she was six and you know I just feel sorry for her poor little kids,” she told The AM Show.

“They’ve been brought up and dragged up, you could say, in a place like Syria in IS camps and this woman chose to marry three times to IS fighters… I just think we are going to rue the day that we have to take her in.”

As for following Australia and changing the law:

Bridges then asked whether New Zealand should consider a law that would automatically revoke the citizenship of Kiwis who join terrorist groups.

Collins said it should be considered but conceded it would come with challenges.

“It’s very hard to do that with someone who is born in the country.”

If by “getting done over by the Australians” you mean them refusing to do what they do and breach some pretty fundamental rights then you may have a point.

Gerry Brownlee has also been sipping the racist kool aid.  From Radio New Zealand:

National’s foreign affairs spokesperson Gerry Brownlee said Australia’s stance was unreasonable, but the New Zealand’s government’s decision showed the government did not have a high degree of concern for individual responsibility.

“I think you always have a choice,” he said. “You can’t really resile with the fact that this woman left Australia to join an organisation that wanted to destroy our way of life … that considered that the way in which we live in both New Zealand and Australia is somehow evil.”

He said it showed the government’s excuse that Aden could not be separated from her children did not stack up.

“Those children are victims of their parents’ decisions. We have organisations in New Zealand that regularly take children away from bad parents so … I don’t think the suggestion that there were family bonds there that could not be broken was reasonable.”

He thought it was “very poor” that the government would not give details about what kind of security arrangements would be in place, and the legal and operational security reasons given were “not good enough”.

“I think it’s just an excuse for not trusting the New Zealand public to know what they’re up to.”

Yep stripping someone of their citizenship and leaving them and their children stateless because they associated with some not very nice people should happen all the time.  And his demand that details about the security arrangements be released is pure tripe.  He knows this will never happen.  These sorts of arrangements are never ever publicised for very good security reasons.

Pablo’s description of Brownlee should be bookmarked for future use:

Mr. Brownlee was/is a “racist dog-whistling, grasping-at-straws-on-the-security-angle tool.” I say so because Brownlee is the guy who ran the Christchurch earthquake “relief” efforts and sent private investigators to spy on insurance claimants and residents asking for help; who said that there were no white supremacists in Christchurch after the March 15 attacks; who hinted at dark conspiracy theories about Covid during the 2020 election; who railed about refugees during debate about the Control Order Bill last year when the Bill was strictly about returning Kiwis suspected to be involved in foreign conflicts. He was part of a government that regularly hid, misled or deliberately lied to the public on a number of issues, including those involving national security. He was an atrocious Defence Minister, more interested in junkets than full metal jackets, and a piss-poor Foreign Minister (among other failures) who was every diplomatic reception’s worst nightmare. He is long past his expiry date as a politician, so being a public buffoon is a step up.

This is a particularly vile example of the depths that conservative politicians including National will sink to.  Shame on them.

81 comments on “Citizenship is a human right ”

  1. Pete 1

    Hopefully this week's efforts from Brownlee are just his political death throes. He deserves them.

  2. bwaghorn 2

    I have absolutely no problem with what the aussie have done in this case,(putting aside how unfair giving anyone dual citizenship when most of us cant have that luxury.)

    Sometimes the message you send needs to be loud and clear.

    • lprent 2.1

      Personally I think that we should have a close look at CER and the free access between us and Australia. It simply isn't working very well. I'm currently in favour of closing the borders and treating kiwis going to aussie and aussies coming here just as we would for most other countries.

      In essence we appear to be subsidizing Australia through our welfare and support services for people that aren't paying taxes here, and often never have done so.

      I'd like to shift to the full-blown short-term visa systems between here and aussie and dump the dual labour market. If people want to go to Australia or aussies to come here, they should get explicit residence and visas – the ames as almost everyone else.

      • RedLogix 2.1.1

        Given how closely integrated the two nations are socially and commercially your views above read as flying in the face of the reality that NZ is a semi-autonomous member of the Australian Federation that everyone likes to pretend is independent.

        Our biggest problem is that despite our deep and often dependent linkage to Australia is that we have minimal political leverage with them. I'd suggest that reducing that influence even further takes us in totally the wrong direction.

        • lprent 2.1.1.1

          Our biggest problem is that despite our deep and often dependent linkage to Australia is that we have minimal political leverage with them. I'd suggest that reducing that influence even further takes us in totally the wrong direction.

          The federal government over there doesn't even pretend to listen to us. I'd ask what are the economic benefits of being associated with aussie that we don't have with our other major trading partners. As far as I can see most of their attitude is at best grasping, condescending and not based on any degree of respect. This has been a long-term trend and shows absolutely no signs of changing on the Australian side. I can't see the point of it any more.

          Given how closely integrated the two nations are socially and commercially…

          Complete bullshit. We simply aren’t – or at least no more than we are with a lot of other places worldwide.

          Sure there are banks and companies running integrated operations. I can't see any reason that they don't do that on the same kind of arrangements that we have with Singapore or most of our major trading partners. I don't see any significiant economic advantages of being associated in a special relationship with Australia.

          I can see quite a lot of disadvantages to both to our citizens inside NZ and those over in Australia compared to what was present 40 years ago. Almost all of those disadvantages come directly from the unilateral policy actions of the arseholes of the Federal government in Australia.

          Most of the financial impact of those decisions fall back on the taxpayers inside New Zealand because Australia clips the tax ticket on our citizens working in Australia but fails to deliver the services that they paid for inside of Australia.

          ie – tell me any realistic benefit that people in New Zealnd have from associating with Australia that outweighs the way that they spend crapping over us and our citizens. Because I can't see them.

          FFS Australia is completely irrelevant to me.

          My current company is US based, with a local NZ company, and recently started being run by a regional company in Aussie. It is a regional organisation for APAC and a lot of other local country organisations. The region could have just as easily be run from a company in Singapore like so many others are.

          I think I have transited through an Australian airport once in the last 3 decades. We mostly organise (and always have done so) via the net.

          The last time I spent any time in Australia was in the 1980s. I work a bit with organisations there, but I work way more with organisation over the net in Asia, US, and even the UK. I have been through each of Frankfurt, Hong Kong, Singapore airport on business at least 5x more than I have ever touched down in Australia.

          Right now I can envisage getting to the point in a few years where they can be kicked back here for getting a few speeding tickets. Aussie federal politicians simply doesn't listen to us – I can't see any evidence that any of them from any party intend to even try to to so in the future. I can't see why we should waste our time even bothering to explain the issues any further.

          Meanwhile we keep losing our tax payer funded education to the Australia job market. I see is my relatives living in Australia who arrived after 1991 increasing living on a precarious edge. They have to come back here to get medical treatment that their taxes there should have paid for, and they don't contribute anything towards them or any superannuation or other welfare here.

          Time to tell Australia to fuck off and taking steps to making sure that our citizens either have to come back, or they have to go through the process to get explicit residence or citizenship in Australia.

          • RedLogix 2.1.1.1.1

            Australia may well be irrelevant to you personally – but extrapolating that to the idea that NZ's largest, oldest and most important neighbouring country is more than a little odd. It would be like asking Canada or Mexico to tear up NAFTA.

            Still if you want to make the argument that Australia should immediately cancel the SCV444 of the 650,000 odd kiwis living in Australia and we should all arrive back in NZ next week – go right ahead. If you think we had a housing problem before. At least we wouldn't have a scaffolding problem …. 🙂

            And if you have relatives who didn’t do what every other Aussie does and buy medical insurance to cover more than the Medicare card – then I’ve not a lot of sympathy.

            • ghostwhowalksnz 2.1.1.1.1.1

              'asking Canada or Mexico to tear up NAFTA"

              Well thats what Trump did..

              And no the uptake of private insurance in Australia outside or Medicare isnt as much as you expect (45%) despite the incentives with price surcharges if you leave it till later in life. A few million have what they call extras or non hospital cover only.

    • mickysavage 2.2

      She was never charged with anything nor convicted of anything and as far as I am aware she was never told about the application. There is a certain Australian in jail in New Zealand for murdering 50 kiwis. His citizenship has not been revoked.

      Can you tell me what the difference is?

      • indiana 2.2.1

        Naturalised citizenship vs applying and becoming a citizen? In the case of the person you are referring to in jail in NZ, if that person applied for citizenship of NZ before committing that crime. Then I think many New Zealanders would want that citizenship revoked.

        • Incognito 2.2.1.1

          I think that you think too much that you think when in reality you exhale hot air from an orifice that you think is close to your brain, which might closer to the truth than you’ll ever know, when you think about.

          • indiana 2.2.1.1.1

            Well best I not think you are trying to provoke me, then.

            • Incognito 2.2.1.1.1.1

              When you post turd-like comments you provoke a response. Your inane dribble is insulting. Please don’t make it worse, as I look forward to a quiet evening to chill out.

      • bwaghorn 2.2.2

        Is the murderous fucker a dual citizen, is his 2nd citizenship the aussie one .

        I never said nz should strip her of citizenship.

        That should have been done when she got Australian citizenship, no one should have dual citizenship

  3. Anne 3

    All hail to Paul Buchanan for telling it like it is – no holds barred. We are lucky to have him.

    Judith Collins is a bitch. Her supporters are no better – ruthless, heartless with not an ounce of decency in their whole bodies.

    This poor kid was radicalised as a young teenager (of course Judith didn't do anything silly when she was a teenager did she? Oh no, she was a paragon of virtue. sarc.) The young woman travelled to the Middle East full of ideological claptrap and fell into the arms of a group of the world's most dangerous terrorists. There is evidence she realised her awful mistake and tried to escape before reaching Syria but it was too late.

    Its not an ideal situation but with strong security and support around her, she has every chance of making a full recovery and her two children will get a chance to lead a normal life.

    That is what decency and compassion looks like Collins and Co. Why don’t you try it for a change.

    • populuxe1 3.1

      We can acknowledge Aden has a right to NZ citizenship without going overboard on the whole poor innocent lamb who lost her way bit.

      • Anne 3.1.1

        I did not call her an "innocent lamb." but nevertheless agree with mickysavage… she did lose her way – big time. In that sense I called her a "poor kid". Never done anything stupid in your youthful days popx1? And paid a price for it?

        • populuxe1 3.1.1.1

          I've never joined a terrorist organisation that chops people's heads off, no

          • georgecom 3.1.1.1.1

            if we have to take such people back because they have the right to return to the country of their birth than maybe so. I wouldn't be lifting a finger myself to facilitate it. if you leave nz to go and join isis and their caliphate dont expect a welcome home from me nor any great concern if you find it difficult to return. We accept things because we have an obligation not because you are welcome home

  4. Patricia Bremner 4

    We say in many countries eighteen is the legal age of adulthood.

    So a young teenager of sixteen made a bad decision. She should be allowed to change her mind.

    Where is the compassion?

    You may have gone to "charm school" Judith, and developed shallow manners, but more is needed here.

    Mr. Brownlee is clearly out of his depth, as are most of that group. They make Act's leader look good for goodness sake , and that is just sad.

    • Anne 4.1

      We say in many countries eighteen is the legal age of adulthood.

      It is said that a young person's brain does not reach full maturity until 25 years of age. Looking back on my own youth that seems about right.

    • ghostwhowalksnz 4.2

      "teenager of sixteen made a bad decision"

      Shes 26 now and left in 2014, so that implies she was an 'adult' when she left.

      • Patricia Bremner 4.2.1

        She was radicalised before that.

        • ghostwhowalksnz 4.2.1.1

          Where is it said that ? I found a NZH story with headline of How she was radicalised in Australia but didnt even mention that at all.

          The particular circumstances Im Ok with coming back to NZ, but being cut off from her parents and siblings may make he life very difficult here

          She left at 18-19 and I think that based on other similar cases we know about in UK, it would have happened in the previous 6 months before leaving.

          And the comparison with impulsive things we all could have done when that age. Going to Syria as a war zone isnt the same as going to Raglan for the weekend.

          There was a similar court case that was conducted in hyper secrecy in the last 18 months or so. For some reason they got wind of her intentions and cancelled her passport so she couldnt travel.

          https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/122839978/mystery-of-secret-passport-case-exposed-as-claimed-terrorist-threat

    • populuxe1 4.3

      Judith and Gerry being morally wrong and Aden absolutely having a legitimate human right to NZ citizenship which we must grant is quite sufficient. I don't see why we have to pretend that you don't have to have a fairly significant flaws in the ethics and empathy department to be radicalised in the first place. She was 21 when she left.

      • Anne 4.3.1

        She was 21 when she left.

        So that would make her 28 now. But she's apparently 26. Don't think your adding skill is any better than the rest of us. smiley

      • Incognito 4.3.2

        Manipulation of the mind can be subtle and persuasive. It can completely change the mind and personality. It happens in cults when people are vulnerable or deliberately made vulnerable often with a lot of social/peer pressure applied and many other ‘tricks’. People do get radicalized on-line but can step back from their device, and re-adjust their perspective, to some degree. This is so much harder when the target/subject is fully immersed in a persuasive, manipulative, and controlling environment and has little to no way of escaping. You can also think of Stockholm syndrome.

  5. AB 5

    The establishment right is uncomfortably adjacent at times to the alt/white supremacist right. Brownlee's and Collins' crime is being too stupid to keep this fact discreetly hidden.

  6. tc 6

    A well framed shot mickey, with Kruiger, Adams n smith is it and Goodfellow

    Political cockroaches ….I like that handle it's fits in sooo many ways.

    • miravox 6.1

      Political cockroaches for sure

      "this woman chose to marry three times to IS fighters…"

      “Those children are victims of their parents’ decisions…”

      Cockroaches scrambling for the worst possible take to keep their brand alive. Have Collins and Brownlee not done anything in young adulthood based romantic notions, adventure or convictions that they've regretted later? Or do they have amnesia?

      After that first 'choice' or 'decision' I imagine the next choices and decisions Suhayra Aden faced were between a rock and a hard place. The rock(s) possibly literal for a young woman refusing to marry.

  7. pat 7

    "Using its reprehensible citizenship stripping law Australia has taken away her Australian citizenship leaving her to be New Zealand’s problem"

    https://www.govt.nz/browse/passports-citizenship-and-identity/nz-citizenship/changing-your-citizenship-status/being-stripped-of-nz-citizenship/

    Appealing to the jury?

    • Poission 7.1

      Hardwired natural law.

      • Molly 7.1.1

        The human evolutionary gift of cognitive and abstract thinking notwithstanding, eh?

        (Mind you, the human actor in your story quite ably demonstrates one of our other traits – mindless cruelty. Luckily, many of us also have the capacity for understanding and compassion.)

        In short, we are not ants.

    • mickysavage 7.2

      I don’t think this power has ever been used. Even Mark Taylor has not had his citizenship revoked.

      And did you see where it said this?

      “Before taking away your citizenship, the Citizenship Office will ask for your side of the story.

      You will get a notice from the Minister giving the reason why your citizenship is being taken away.

      If you think the reason is not good enough to take away your citizenship
      You can apply to the High Court for an appeal, where a judge will make a decision.

      You can also apply for a judicial review.

      You have 28 days from receiving your notice to apply for an appeal or a judicial review.”

      At least Natural Justice will be observed. It was not observed in Aden’s case.

      • pat 7.2.1

        Yes i did see the conditions and suggest that in the circumstances of Suhayra Aden her revocation was issued in absentia (she was incommunicado) and therefore there is a case to be made that those conditions cannot be practically met and the decision remains the Ministers….it may be argued it could be challenged after the the event but would not prevent it occurring in the first instance.

        …oh and we regularly strip citizenship

        “Between 1 January 2012 and 31 December 2019, a total of 15 people were deprived of their New Zealand citizenship.”
        https://www.dia.govt.nz/Services-Citizenship-Citizenship-Statistics

        • ghostwhowalksnz 7.2.1.1

          S17. They all were migrants who acquired NZ citizenship by fraud. Just put them back in their previous situation. Cute that you didnt mention that fact

          • pat 7.2.1.1.1

            Cute???…you're an odd sort…I never checked and its irrelevant….theres always going to be a reason citizenship is revoked the point is it happens, contrary to Mickeys initial musing.

            • ghostwhowalksnz 7.2.1.1.1.1

              Its totally relevant. So fraud should be rewarded with status quo, thats goes against all legal principles. Im sure when they signed the papers it was in full knowledge of the wording saying any falsehoods could lead to citizenship being revoked. Plenty get rejected for falsehoods during the application process, that would mean just bigger lies.

              Im not sure, but those would be for soon after the approval , not 15 years later.

  8. Ad 8

    Ahmed Zaoui at least was a proper test of the security and judicial system that IMHO was worth doing. He appears to be well integrated now.

    I am happy that our intelligence services already have a file on Suhayra Aden a couple of inches thick. She may not have convictions but she does have criminal networks. They should continue to track her, and Welfare and the Refugee Service should also support her. She's not a special case for nothing.

    But higher on my list for the Police to track would be those we import from Australia who cause mayhem and damage.

  9. RedLogix 9

    From Paul Buchanan's post:

    And even if she was or knew about such things, the fact that she was likely acting against her will from the onset mitigates against accusations that she was actively engaged in terrorism. Evidence to the contrary, labelling her as a “terrorist” therefore seems to me to be smear of the most vile sort,

    Yet there is also such a concept as 'giving aid and comfort'. Aden travelled illegally to the ME to do just that. Yes I accept she was young, gullible and probably realised early on what a monumental mistake she'd made. And given ISIS's medieval views on her role as a sex slave, I doubt very much she got anywhere near the actual fighting. Personally I'm happy to see here repatriated and given a second chance.

    (Yet I'm struck by how that none of the young men who made the identical mistake – and again because of ISIS's medieval views on their role as disposable pawns and never got the chance not to fight – no-one would offer any of them a second chance. Their assigned role within ISIS may have been different, their motives not so much.)

    Australian law clearly gives them the right to remove citizenship in cases like Aden's where this does not leave the individual stateless. NZ by contrast has chosen not to have similar legislation – and thus we get to wear the consequence. Unpalatable as that may be in this case NZ really just needs to breath through it’s nose on this one.

    • pat 9.1

      "Australian law clearly gives them the right to remove citizenship in cases like Aden's where this does not leave the individual stateless. NZ by contrast has chosen not to have similar legislation –"

      https://www.govt.nz/browse/passports-citizenship-and-identity/nz-citizenship/changing-your-citizenship-status/being-stripped-of-nz-citizenship/

      I doubt you will find a country that dosnt retain the right to strip citizenship provided someone is not left stateless…and probably several that can and do regardless.

      • RedLogix 9.1.1

        Good link thanks. On first reading it seems that Aden was both a citizen of another country and by joining ISIS was "acting against the interests of New Zealand". That's a phrase that could be very widely interpreted and subject to challenge in the High Court – but I could envisage it being applicable here.

        So are we really just complaining that the Aussies beat us to it?

        • pat 9.1.1.1

          I.m not sure of Mickeys motivation but i suspect the NZ govs objection was the lack of consultation before Aussie acted, not necessarily the act itself.

        • Drowsy M. Kram 9.1.1.2

          The diplomatic equivalent of an underarm delivery perhaps? At least no babies were thrown overboard.

        • ghostwhowalksnz 9.1.1.3

          No and No.

          We did have a similar case of a woman who had her passport cancelled to prevent travel to Syria. Her citizenship wasnt revoked. Pat also avoids the relevant S17 provision for cancelling the citizenship of new migrants acquired by fraud

      • David 9.1.2

        That does seem an inconvenience to the moral high ground arguments. 6 since 2017 if I am reading the table correctly.

  10. ghostwhowalksnz 10

    Australia has even expelled its own 'born in Australia' citizens when they have acquired a foreign 'legacy passport'.

    This isnt the only one very similar situation.

    "Mr Smyth said he lost his Australian passport 18 years ago when holidaying in Ireland and returned home with the Irish passport his father had obtained for him.

    "Life goes on for another 17 years,"

    https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/how-a-man-born-in-australia-lost-his-citizenship-and-fears-deportation-to-ireland-20151014-gk93q6.html

  11. Gypsy 11

    Citizenship is indeed a human right (affirmed by numerous legal standards), but should it be? Citizenship involves a social contract. A nation is extending certain rights to an individual in exchange for that citizen meeting their part of that contract, eg obeying the laws of the land. When an individual (at least an adult) makes a decision to leave the country and align themselves with a jihadist 'caliphate', "Infamous for its brutal violence and murderous assaults on civilians" (https://www.history.com/topics/21st-century/isis), shouldn't a nation have the right to review that contract?

    • Gabby 11.1

      Yes, it should be. Next thing, people get stripped of their citizenship because embarrassing politicians is 'against the national interests'.

    • Incognito 11.2

      It is and should be a human right. As to revoking NZ citizenship, please read the comments by Pat and the links therein as well as comments by a few others on this.

      • ghostwhowalksnz 11.2.1

        Pat didnt mention the S17 cancellations were for citizenship acquired by fraud…it just restored them to their previous situation.

        • Incognito 11.2.1.1

          That’s irrelevant because Ms Aden was born in NZ and has dual citizenship on that ground.

    • RedLogix 11.3

      I'm inclined to agree with you to some degree. What for instance about people who commit to being members of criminal gangs, openly telling the rest of society that that they will flout the law whenever they wish?

      In earlier times they were declared outlaws and literally outside its protection. I'm not sure we can go back there, but some people make me wonder.

      • Incognito 11.3.1

        When people commit a crime, they get charged, trialled, and penalised when found guilty. AFAIK, associating with a criminal(s) is not a crime. Similarly, the OP is about a woman who, AFAIK, has not committed a crime in or against NZ that justifies or warrants removal of her NZ citizenship. And even if she had acted against the interests of NZ the bar is high because it needs to be shown that it was done voluntarily, without undue force or pressure, for example. Please note that she now is a mother with children. In any case, there is a difference between a criminal and a terrorist organisation and I don’t think it helps the debate to conflate these two with whataboutisms.

    • McFlock 11.4

      Rights aren't contracts.

      If you're born in a country, or build connections of equivalent depth, the country is part of what shapes you into who you become. That's a constant obligation on the country.

      We can travel overseas and renounce citizenship, but it's ours to renounce, not the country's.

      • Gypsy 11.4.1

        Thanks – good points. Interestingly Estonia have a law that allows the government to strip a person of citizenship who commits 'serious crimes against the state' (which all sounds a bit Orwellian). But (similar to the point Incognito makes above), there is a judicial process that is worked through in which a person is tried etc first.

  12. coreyjhumm 12

    Her citizenship shouldn't be stripped. Its unfortunate that Australia has done this but quite frankly… I don't have much sympathy for her and neither will the public. We as a tolerant liberal free society have a duty to allow her into her country of birth and prove we are better than the terrorists she left Australia to support.

    She like all the other people who get radicalized on line made a choice be they red pillers, tin foil hats and antivax nutters incels , who hold super spreader spreader protest events and storm government buildings like Jan 6, incel shooters and terrorists who got radicalized online and are traitors and joined organizations that want to bring down free, liberal societies.

    She may not have been a killer herself but she actively supported the terrorists and their ideology, traitor.

    It's not a silly mistake a teen does , a silly mistake is a drunk and disorderly, getting into a fight, vandalism, stealing a car traveling across the world to join a terrorist network is not a silly mistake and any 16 year old knows better than that … So no she's not the victim here, unless all the other incels, antivaxers red pillers, white supremacists etc who get radicalized online are also victims. They are not.

    You have to go looking for that propaganda and if you see videos of isis beheading lgbt people like me and throwing people off buildings and massacring people and burning down ancient artifacts which was what is was uploading constantly in 2013/2014 and think that's me I'm gonna go join up , I don't care what your age is you're a monster.

    This is not a left right issue.

    She is a citizen and she gets to live in nz but she is no poor innocent soul. She may not have killed anyone but she supported the movement. Made a decision to become a traitor to liberal society and now as a decent society we must show her that we are better than them with our tolerance but that doesn't mean we have to like her, feel sorry for her of forgive her.

    Respect and forgiveness is earned… If she wants it she needs to work for it.

  13. McFlock 13

    To me, citizenship is basically on the same level as the right to not get murdered.

    Sure, watch her like a hawk, but she's still one of ours. Our responsibility.

    If the aussies are so keen on stripping citizenship from teenagers, have they done that to the chch arsehole?

    • Anne 13.1

      If the aussies are so keen on stripping citizenship from teenagers, have they done that to the chch arsehole?

      Very good point. And he murdered and injured. But he's a pale male. I guess that works to his advantage.

    • Gabby 13.2

      Is he a dual citizen?

      • McFlock 13.2.1

        Meh. It's not as if they couldn't pass another act if that was the only thing stopping them from announcing that murdering 50 people at prayer was unAustralian.

        • Anne 13.2.1.1

          He not only murdered 50 people, he injured another 50 (some will be disabled for life) and he was on his way to another mosque to murder and injure a whole lot more but thankfully was captured. But he has not been stripped of his citizenship.

          NZ should deport him and lets see how the Aussies handle it.

          • McFlock 13.2.1.1.1

            If we deport him, I can't help thinking that one or two aussie pollies would openly try to get him released.

            • ghostwhowalksnz 13.2.1.1.1.1

              Australia have no legal way to keep him in prison if we deported him now. Anyway hes a full life term here so the usual case of being deported when getting parole doesnt apply.

              • McFlock

                All their anti-terror legislation wouldn't let them imprison an actual terrorist? Fascinating.

                • Pete

                  If he'd gone to the Middle East and done the same thing as he did here and landed back at the airport they'd just let him go. And the same if his name was Bren el Tar Ant?

          • Incognito 13.2.1.1.2

            51

  14. Stuart Munro 14

    However it may be being abused by Australia, I'm not convinced that multiple citizenship is a human right – and I can think of a few instances of wage theft where the perpetrator might reasonably lose NZ citizenship – having neither learned the culture nor complied with the laws as a citizen ought.

    It is one thing to create stateless persons as depriving people of their only nationality might – and quite another to revoke, say, the unearned privilege of "citizen" Thiel to speculate in our property market. I'd shed no tears (or pixels) on that person's behalf, nor for any technicality that protects him, instead of his supposedly adopted country.

  15. Infused 15

    She should at least be investigated and jailed. She's getting a free ride while other new zealders are trapper overseas not to mention migrant families.

    Actually she should just rott in jail and let her kids grow up with a better future

    • pat 15.1

      and her children?

      • Infused 15.1.1

        Foster family obviously. She'd hardly be a fit mother

        • pat 15.1.1.1

          Im not sure our current state care system inspires much confidence of good outcomes.

        • joe90 15.1.1.2

          There's already a serious shortage of folk willing to foster kids with few if any demanding mental health/behavioural issues.

          Do you think foster parents able to fulfill the needs of these kids, likely awfully traumatised by their experiences, grow on trees?

          • infused 15.1.1.2.1

            I think anything will be better than being left with her.

            • Incognito 15.1.1.2.1.1

              Let me turn this back to you to show you what a simpleton comment that was: I think your children will be better off without you.

  16. Tony 16

    Lets take a step back and look at the different Countries who financed the terrorists in the first place .. She tried to escape WITH her children, as a Mother she is ok, her experience is her best teacher, the Family need support now ..

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