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Daily review 05/05/2022

Written By: - Date published: 5:30 pm, May 5th, 2022 - 98 comments
Categories: Daily review - Tags:

Daily review is also your post.

This provides Standardistas the opportunity to review events of the day.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Don’t forget to be kind to each other …

98 comments on “Daily review 05/05/2022 ”

  1. Ad 1

    I’d like to give a huge shoutout to the team at Hamilton’s MilkTestNZ, together with the gutsy advice of MPI who put the case to Treasury and then to Cabinet to put up nearly $900 million to eradicate MBovis from the entire cow herd of New Zealand.

    After starting way back in 2018, they are now down to their last infected farm, and they will get it out of there soon. There were plenty of doubters at the time who I am sure will have the sense to keep quiet now.

    It is of course immensely stressful and there are many hundreds of devastated farmers and indeed cow families whose cow herds have been slaughtered as part of this massive eradication programme.

    Once complete it will be the only time in the world that a massive MBovis outbreak has ever been eradicated in the entire world.

    It is also our biggest ever biosecurity outbreak since the Norwegian Shiprat. Faced and brought to heel.

    So congratulations to the entire team of testers, public servants, Minister O’Connor, the lab scientists, trackers, cattle agents and of course the farmers who have together brought this under control.

    Eradication approach leaves just one property with M. bovis (1news.co.nz)

    No idea if this government will get much recognition for it, but it’s a hard earned result of a successful delivery.

  2. aj 2

    No idea if this government will get much recognition for it, but it’s a hard earned result of a successful delivery.

    I agree, great result for NZ and farming but little if any credit ill be given.

  3. Corey Humm 3

    Interesting! While 68% want a tax cut in the next budget (including 54% of labour voters) 76% of kiwi's want gst off food. Getting rid of gst is indeed a tax cut for everyone. It's also progressive af, GST is a Disgraceful consumption tax that hurts the poorest.

    Since more people favor gst cuts than tax cuts , If Labour has any sense they will be dropping GST to atleast pre Key levels in the budget ( preferably they'd go further and drop to 10% like Australia) and remind everyone at every chance that nationals tax cuts will mean a GST rises which means price rises.

    instead of trying to attack Luxon for what he'd personally get out of tax cuts (which didn't work with key and isn't working with Luxon) people don't care about his wealth, they would care that his tax cuts will mean they get $20 a week but pay more on every item they buy..

    Since the tax take is 2.7 billion dollars higher than forecast that $2.7 billion should go to tax cuts or gst cuts.

    By doing something on tax (preferably the more popular option of gst) Labour can neutralize Nationals biggest stick (tax cuts)


    • Patricia Bremner 3.1

      Yes Corey.. That would just "pull the rug"

    • Anne 3.2


      Do you think the Government should give New Zealanders a tax cut in the upcoming May Budget?

      68% said yes. I'm surprised it wasn't 100%. Who doesn't want a tax cut.

      Its up to the government to make sure that National's policy – to give themselves and their mates a massive tax cut and the rest a few coins in comparison – is known by every man and woman in the country.

  4. Molly 4

    Some of you may be aware of the Transpower rises in Electricity charges for manufacturers indicated last week.

    It may be of further interest to know that the sole manufacturer of construction steel in NZ, including rebar and roofing will be disadvantaged by a 348% rise by April 2023. This will increase the cost of electricity for BlueScope from $3million to $14m p/a. Increasing the cost of steel by $16.50 tonne.

    Although BlueScope is Australian owned, it is providing construction steel while supply lines are stretched and not reliable.

    Rio Tinto on the other hand has been subsidised. There's more to this, but the impact on construction costs will be noted.

    • Ad 4.1

      Yes they have complained in a letter to the Minister a few months back.

      For us in the construction industry it ranks as bad as the closure of Marsden Point refinery.

      Similarly a remnant hero project from 1966s, paired with the Meremere and Huntly Power Station for local steel from local bulk generation.

  5. Molly 5

    Son is doing a compulsory paper at university, and module is currently the mātauranga Māori one. During the last few days, while stuck in traffic, he pulls up the online powerpoints and we've had some interesting discussions on what is being presented.

    It's been a hybrid of fact, opinion, unevidenced speculation and unconvincing equivalences of some aspects of Te Ao Māori with universal science concepts.

    Yesterdays contribution – apparently delivered with a straight face, was in regards to water pollution. The use of scientific method to determine whether there was pollution was considered a colonial approach of science. According to the lecturer, mātauranga Māori approach was superior. If you were adept at mātauranga Māori, you did not have to resort to testing of any kind. You had the (unspoken but implied) superior method of looking at a body of water and knowing whether it was suitable for swimming or drinking.

    This application of Māori knowledge, ill fitted, non-evidenced and unable to be challenged (yes, they were advised at the start of the module that some may find the material contentious but that was the fault of the complainers) is going to backfire. It will create understandable dismisssal and possibly resentment for those that are presented with it.

    A true partnership between Māori and the Crown requires mutual respect, not this facsimile of understanding and equality.

    • Anker 5.1

      God help us Molly. Seriously "the use of the scientific method to determine whether there was pollution was considered a colonial approach of science. Acording to the lecturer Matauranga Maori was superior. ………..you did not have to resort to testing of any kind."

      Expect NZ to lose its scientists in droves because of this stuff.

      Thanks for posting.

      • Molly 5.1.1

        What is really annoying, is that this approach may actively discourage people from seeking out knowledge for themselves on Te Ao Māori.

    • Belladonna 5.2

      Science is apparently no longer of any value in this post-truth world.

      Expect NZ international university ratings to take a nose-dive if this is embedded.
      Not to mention that we are crying out for scientifically literate graduates in a whole range of areas.

      I don't know about you, but if 3 Waters goes ahead, I really, really do want to have some scientific backing to claims of potability of my water supply…..

      Observation (which happens in scientific enquire as well as mātauranga Māori) can give you broad indications of the health of a body of water (healthy plants, diversity of fishes and invertebrates, even colour and smell of the water, etc.), but doesn't tell you anything about fecal coliform counts or cryptosporidium levels.

      • Molly 5.2.1

        "…but doesn't tell you anything about fecal coliform counts or cryptosporidium levels."

        Almost word for word in what I told my son. yes

      • Muttonbird 5.2.2

        It is possible to look at a river, a life force, and tell it is not healthy.

        Western science is useful but is also a colonial construct used to protect economic benefits of a small number of farming elite, to the detriment of the river ecosystem.

        • Molly

          Science – which endeavours to be a universal language – and has contributors from cultures all over the world, includes the observation you speak of as a primary source of theories.

          "It is possible to look at a river, a life force, and tell it is not healthy."

          Yes. But it is not possible to look at a body of water and tell if it is drinkable from that observation only. That assumes a mystical knowledge that is the antithesis of science. The observation leads to a theory that the water is able to be drunk. That theory is tested, and conclusion reached.

          "Western science is useful but is also a colonial construct used to protect economic benefits of a small number of farming elite, to the detriment of the river ecosystem."

          You call it a colonial construct, despite knowledge being built up over millenium from a wide variety of cultures.

          To me, it is a tool, that can be used wisely or not, to examine the world around us. It can benefit all. To say it is limited to the use of a "farming elite, to the detriment of the river system" is emotive rhetoric. Which also has no place in science evaluation.

          • weka

            Yes. But it is not possible to look at a body of water and tell if it is drinkable from that observation only. That assumes a mystical knowledge that is the antithesis of science. The observation leads to a theory that the water is able to be drunk. That theory is tested, and conclusion reached.

            I addressed this above/below but want to dig into it a bit more.

            1. it's not just observation, it's also interaction
            2. observation can tell us immediate things that do in fact establish drinkable eg I wouldn't drink from a pond that was full of algae. I don't need science to tell me that, and humans had ways of avoiding making themselves sick long before western science arrived on the scene.
            3. deep observation can see things we cannot and so the ability to establish drinkable may be more than point 2. eg can the person see that over time there's been a decline in the nymph that lives in the rocks on the edge of the creek and then one year they are nearly all gone, and there's an oral history of this occurrence and people becoming very ill when drinking the water (I made that example up)

            None of that is infallible, but then neither is science.

            • Molly

              I believe observation to be the starting blocks of science. Every learned fact was first observed, and tested in some way, and conclusions reached. Whether that is from a series of observations leading to a fixed pattern being recognised or otherwise, observations are a fundamental part of scientific theory. Your example of water observation in this sense, fits well.

              However, there is a limited number of Maaori who retain the intimacy and connection to land to perform this type of observation. And that loss should be recognised and mourned, and hopefully, as we become more intimate with the land, regained. However, we need to ensure when teaching, that it is not promoted as an innate ability that is unable to be understood, so it takes on a mystical quality.

              If we err on that side, the inclusion of matuaranga Maaori will have justified critics. If we introduce concepts, the explanation should be robust (as yours was – I'll actually share it with my son, so he can write about it in that form) and able to be queried.

              (Bit of a red flag for me: Questions were also discouraged. I really want to sit in on these lectures to see for myself what is actually going on, then I'd be able to be either reassured about content, or able to articulate better if I consider there to be problems.)

              • weka

                that would be a red flag for me too. I do think there is cause for concern here based on what you have share. My response is similar to Robert's and as I shared below, is faulty delivery better or worse than no delivery?

                And that loss should be recognised and mourned, and hopefully, as we become more intimate with the land, regained.

                That becoming more intimate with the land is currently blocked. It's why we have climate change and polluted rivers. It stems directly from the dominant cultural world view that the universe is mechanistic, as well as our general disconnect from nature. I see the push of mātauranga Māori into education as one way of changing that. My biggest concerns here are that if they don't bring people along there will be a backlash, and that if they do it badly it will undermine the usefulness of western science. The problem here is trying to teach concepts to people who don't have the conceptual language or framework.

                When I learned te reo, it was taught in a specific context, te Ao Māori. It wasn't taught like Latin or French as a set of patterns of words (although that was also taught), it was embedded in culture. Opening and closing karakia, learning some haka, waiata, marae visits and so on.

                If we want to decolonise knowledge and learning, then we have to look at who gets to determine the cultural context it is taught in. At the moment the default is Pākehā (British descent).

                However, we need to ensure when teaching, that it is not promoted as an innate ability that is unable to be understood, so it takes on a mystical quality.

                There are some things that cannot be understood with the reductionist mind. We have mysticism because it gives us the conceptual frame and language to talk about those things.

            • Molly

              I have a book somewhere about Aboriginal culture in Australia, with chapters regarding their bushcraft and hunting and gathering rituals and practices.

              I remember vividly the chapter on testing new plantstuffs to see whether they were edible. Starting with observations about the plant, and similarity to other ones that they knew were edible, to looking for the evidence regarding what other animals ate it. When both those questions were answered positively, they had a set of tests they would put the plant through. Starting with skin sensitivity, and moving through the range of exposures until they were reassured enough to ingest it in small quantities.

              If I come across it, I'll post the title. But for me, a really informative look into another culture and a clear understanding of their processes, which were related alongside their rituals.

              I recall buying it from the withdrawals of the library as it started with a woman giving birth in the outback, and using practiced rituals to connect to the land and sky while giving birth. (After making this comment, I want to read it again now and have it as a comparative guide when looking at the mataraunga Maaori curriculum).

        • Anker


          Bloody colonial Western Science again providing heart checks for Maori.

          • weka

            Are you suggesting that critiques of western science as colonial are somehow aligned with not using western science? Because that's not my understanding. The whole point is to have mātauranga Māori and western science and get the best of both worlds.

    • Muttonbird 5.3

      A true partnership between Māori and the Crown requires mutual respect, not this facsimile of understanding and equality.

      Well, mutual respect has been absent from the side of the crown for nearly 200 years now. Why the sudden importance? Oh, that's right, it's because Maori are asking serious questions and conservative white people don't like it.

      Suddenly it's time for respect! Lol.

      • Molly 5.3.1

        Are you assuming that I am both conservative and white?

        Why don't you comment on content?

        • Muttonbird

          Don't be so arrogant as to assume my comment was about you.

          • Molly

            So misinterpretation and insinuation in direct reply to me, but not intended to relate to me…

            Quality contribution. Just low-quality.

            • Muttonbird

              My comment was general. You can include yourself in the conservative white people bubble if you like, or not.

              • Molly

                "My comment was general. You can include yourself in the conservative white people bubble if you like, or not."

                How is making unevidenced generalisations about people in regards to their position on a topic – a good contribution?

                What is the outcome you expect from that? Or do you gain a personal satisfaction from arbitrarily labelling people who you disagree with?

                • Muttonbird

                  I didn't label you anything. You did that yourself.

                  • Molly

                    What is your desired outcome when you write "conservative white people" and " conservative white people bubble"?

                    It would be interesting to know what reaction you would like in return, or is it just about releasing tension for you personally, or a show of aggression?

      • Anker 5.3.2

        What serious questions did the lecturer in Molly's son class ask? It sounds like the lecture was about labelling Western science colonial and inflating the ability of Maori to know water quality on sight and smell.

        What are these serious questions you talk of?

        • Molly

          As I conceded to weka, I would probably have to attend a class to ensure that I am not misrepresenting either my son, or what was being delivered.

          I see some red flags, but without evidence I can only express disquiet rather than outrage.

          I'd be really annoyed though, if a badly designed or taught mataraunga Maaori curriculum put the consideration of the value of the contribution of Te Ao Maaori backwards instead of forwards.

          • Anker

            Yes and I probably need to pause and breath a little.

            The book you sited about Aboriginal culture bush craft is worthy of knowing about. And Maori have similar wisdom to offer.

            When I hear people denigrating science and referring to it as colonial, red flags go off for me. What it is signalling for me is an ideological approach that is most unhelpful. I have experienced this in my own profession, when at a workshop I went to, the particular expertise I has was referred to as colonisation and the speaker frankly did not understand anything about what the methodology I used. I went along in good faith to learn more about Maori approaches in my field but I had to conclude that it had very little to offer. And I actually challenged the speaker re her saying the approach I am trained in was colonisation and she was extremely patronizing towards me.

            I am beginning to think that the idea of denigrating science as colonial could be pervading our educational institutions. This worries me greatly.

            • Molly

              I also have difficulties with acceptance the colonial reference in regards to science. I understood the science knowledge base to be one built on through millenia, and contributed to by cultures around the world from various places, at different times.

              I also consider the building of this knowledge base to be ongoing. A truly universal language that allows any individual or culture to participate and contribute. The outcome: Mataraunga Maaori being recognised as a valued contributor, and having input into changes processes, if changing processes is what is required.

              But the flipside of equal consideration is equal scrutiny. We can and should demand that curriculum from all sources are fit for purpose, and can stand up to critique.

              • Incognito

                You raise many good and interesting points, as usual.

                Many of our science graduates will live and work overseas at some time in their lives although not necessarily working in a field of science. This raises the question whether VM gives them an international advantage or not, assuming it is more than just feeding a parochial need or island mentality.

                • lprent

                  Yeah I am a science graduate, and I have never worked in science.

                  However I use an understanding of science knowledge all of the time in everything from writing code to arguing on here about politics. And have a sufficient base to keep growing more understanding.

    • weka 5.4

      Is your son doing a science degree?

      is it possible to see the content? (sorry, I know you've posted a lot of links to curriculum in the past). I'd like us to tease out what is official and what is the lecturer or tutor saying (is there a problem with the course itself, or was it this particular teacher, and how much of both?)

      One thing I know from learning some te reo Māori, is that there are concepts quite hard to understand to the Western mind. It requires a different kind of thinking. Thus there's a tendency to see an mātauranga body of knowledge (oh some nice myths and such but not real knowledge) as inferior rather than alongside.

      Don't disagree with you about the potential problems of what is being done, although I suspect part of the problem is trying to teach conceptual ideas and content related to that to people who don't have the conceptual grasp. Part of it is the emphasis on the literal in Western thinking and the lesser ability to think in metaphor.

      Re your example of rivers, to my mind there is the reductionist approach (measure known pollutants and pathogens), and there is the knowledge that comes from deep observation and experience with the landscape (something that Westerners often struggle to grasp both the complexity and degree). Someone who knows a river from livelong interaction within a framework that establishes knowledge and that within the context of generations of observation, can see things we can't. When one's life and the lives of whānau and hapū depend on that, intergenerationally, then it's not so hard to see the body of knowledge being developed. Much of this has been grossly harmed by colonisation.

      The tone of the teacher seems patronising. I've also seen such things reported by people who missed what was really being said.

      • Molly 5.4.1

        Engineering. Like me, on the Aspergers spectrum, and very pedantic about what is being said. I trust him to get it right, because he is also forthright about getting it wrong.

        My son, as a teen, accompanied me to Tikanga Marae course, and was involved in Kapa Haka for a while. Wants to learn Te Reo, and has some exposure to some of the concepts of Te Ao Maaori.

        "Someone who knows a river from livelong interaction within a framework that establishes knowledge and that within the context of generations of observation, can see things we can't."

        This I understand. But this is not what was said. It is a privilege afforded to very few people – Maaori or not, to have such an intimate connection with the land. I think that there is a difference between acknowledging the value of that connection while recognising the scale of the loss of it due to urbanisation and losing contact, with assuming that it is sense incumbent within all Maaori. I really believe the standard of the delivery will be dependent on the quality and restraint of the kaiako. Someone who is passionate about the injustices of the Crown, may be more likely to stretch the alignment of concepts to the point where a break is visible.

        We are urban Maaori. My maternal grandparents farm was our de-facto marae, where we all gathered at holidays, celebrations and tangihanga. I have sought out additional learning for myself and my children, as after the grandparents died the farm ownership has been in and out of court for decades, and that easy relationship has been fractured.

        I believe that mataraunga Maaori can and does contribute to the well-being of not only all the people of NZ, but the land.

        I just want to ensure that the policy that hopes to include it, succeeds and does not put people off learning more. I think if they are not careful about content AND delivery, it could have a negative effect.

        (My experience with the three courses from Te Wananga o Aotearoa, are mostly informed by the quality and delivery of the tutors. Two were superb, and retained most of the enrolments. The third, Te Reo, was painful, by a begrudging tutor, and the course finished with less than a third of the original number. My te reo is non-existent now.)

        (Addition: Not supposed to share content. He was reading off his phone while I was driving, but they are advised not to share coursework with anyone. So, we just discussed what was said. Some slides with content points, but the lecturer riffed off them, which is where variation naturally occurs.)

        • weka

          Thanks Molly, lots there to consider, hope to come back today or over the weekend.

          (being told not to share coursework is a big red flag for me. Not that he should share, don't want him to be uncomfortable or get grief about it. But that they are telling students to be secretive about it is really not ok).

          • Molly

            Given the transfer during Covid to online, I suspect this is a standard proviso to protect intellectual property (and income streams). At present he still has access, but is not a rule breaker so don't want to push to get access. I have asked. I think he'd be comfortable with me in the room while he's watching, but he really doesn't want to watch again. Other priorities.

            The class were invited to speak amongst themselves, and the other student was resentful of what had been presented. My concern is, that if not done well this effort will have long term negative repercussions.

            • weka

              how would online powerpoint be different than handouts in a class?

              • Molly

                Don't know. But I understand that may apply there too. I'll check.

                (They’ve actually posted the full lectures, not just the Powerpoints.)

          • Populuxe1

            I feel that there is probably a lot of contextual nuance about rohe familiarity and cultural priorities that haven't been understood here imo

            • Molly

              I think weka has actually encapsulated that really well in her examples above. I showed her comments to my son to see if between him seeing it, and us talking about it, there has been a misinterpretation on my part.

              He can follow weka's comments easily, and said that what was presented was not along those lines.

              I'm trying to persuade him to watch online, so I can have a look and report back not via hearsay.

              I'm supportive of an education system that gives all students an opportunity to be introduced and understand Te Ao Maori. That's why I think it is really important to get right.

              If anyone has an opportunity to sit in on such lectures it'd be good to hear back. Unfortunately, like most courses, it might be a failing of lecturer and delivery rather than content. Or it could be neither – or both.

          • Robert Guyton

            This was a fascination, frustrating discussion, weka, Molly et al. It's also a critical one, imo and one that's engaging "governance" up and down nga motu 🙂

            Is the anguish expressed here primarily about the potential for a valuable adjustment to our world-view being harmed by faulty delivery, or are we debating the worth of the coming to prominence of matauranga Maori in the thinking/decision-making of all of us, but especially those especially those in the political sphere? Or something else?

            The debate becomes, as it so often does, nebulous, if there isn't a focus set.

            It might seem odd, and might sink like a stone (he pohatu kei roto puna?) but I'd like to suggest that we discuss/share dialogue around the word/concept "hauora"?

            Thinking about this and debating in the council chamber, with iwi aboard, over the past couple of years, has proved very valuable, in my opinion. However, given this thread is "old" now (how ephemeral life is 🙂 it's likely my suggestion will be erased by circumstance; such is (modern) life 🙂

            • weka

              Is the anguish expressed here primarily about the potential for a valuable adjustment to our world-view being harmed by faulty delivery, or are we debating the worth of the coming to prominence of matauranga Maori in the thinking/decision-making of all of us, but especially those especially those in the political sphere? Or something else?

              thanks Robert. This was my thinking too, but not as eloquently thought in my head. I suspect it's mostly the former, but it risks the latter. If it's a choice between faulty delivery or no delivery, what would we choose?

              I also think decolonising western minds is pertinent, and I don't know how else to do that in NZ en masse apart from engaging with te Ao Māori.

              Can you lead the discussion around hauora? My first thought goes to what wellbeing is compared to how our health system sees it (something broken that needs fixing). Something I was reading from Little the other day, our mainstream health systems are a very long way from upholding health and vigour.


              • Robert Guyton

                I'd keep away from "the health system" in a discussion about hauora, weka, as it's too, too loaded with prior expectations/agonies/anguish. I was thinking about "hauora' as it's being used with regard water quality – the hauora of the water has become the lens through which legislation etc. around water quality is being viewed and it's creating some very intense discussions. For me, it's a very useful pivot around which the whole matauranga Maori/Western/colonizer science debate can turn.

                • weka

                  Is the immediate value there in the discussions being created?

                  • Robert Guyton

                    It's a flash-point, imo. From the discussions I've been involved in, it seems there is a problem with applying our usual intellectual/thinking strategies to understanding "hauora" and meaning can only be gained through more poetic approaches. I guess the same problem would occur here and little might be gained. Face to face though, in an atmosphere of eagerness-to-learn, insight can be achieved by describing "hauora" in terms of, for example, a mother and new-born and their relationship, especially in terms of how the mother wraps her entire experience of living around the little one. Using that analogy/story to help express "hauora" with regards water, might stretch to breaking point most "colonised, Western minds 🙂 Nevertheless, I have been present in discussions where this has been spoken aloud to great effect 🙂

        • weka

          I hear you on the loss, both generally and for families in situations like yours. The loss was similar for my people (most peoples), but it was long ago enough that we don't even acknowledge it let alone remember or feel it. Layers of colonisation and here we are at the end of the world.

          I also hear you about the quality of the delivery. I guess the ideal in an engineering course would be to have someone who is 'bilingual'. Understands science well and understands mātauranga. But as you point out, we probably don't have enough people who are also skilled in teaching.

          The issue then becomes what do we do next?

          It is a privilege afforded to very few people – Maaori or not, to have such an intimate connection with the land.

          There are quite a lot of people seeking to remedy this and building experience, skill and knowledge. Robert is one such, nearly 30 years of direct and deep engagement with one place along with intention does that. I think many Māori still on the land have it. I know other Pākehā too, quite a lot. There are Pākehā frameworks that are helping eg permaculture. So all is not lost and it is worth trying to shift the cultural stuff while we still have enough functional society and civ tech to do so.

          • weka

            I see an overlap here with the Freedom protests. A subsection of that is people who manage their health from direct observation and engagement, and to them vaccination in particular is just weird (plus now it's mixed in with all the conspiracy and misinformation). Intuition is valued much more highly than science.

            But in the wider sub culture that they belong to, there are people recovering health that mainstream medicine had said was not possible. I know this happens in Māoridom as well. And the other side is that in alternative health there is a fair amount of stupid and bullshit (but I would say this about mainstream medicine too, it's just displayed differently and msm has the power and resources to get away with it).

            All of that to me points to a binary fragmentation that is getting worse and based in a lot of people not listening to each other and not prepared to listen to each other (which is scary).

            We see that in the sex/gender wars as well. And in the culture wars generally. It's not a good thing to be happening at this point in history.

      • Patricia Bremner 5.4.2

        Well expressed Weka.

  6. aj 6

    Worth a read. I fear it is correct.

    Apart from the liberal fringe of coastal states, it is hard to find social attitudes at a legislative level in the United States that are much more advanced than those of the Taliban. To illustrate: once Roe goes, up to 30 US states will legislate to effectively re-criminalise abortion altogether.


  7. weka 7

    • Muttonbird 7.1

      These threats any less likely to happen if Ireland did not have self-ID?

      Or is it just the label, "Woman (20)", you are worried about?

      • Anker 7.1.1
        • Women 20 is allowed access to womens spaces, think prisons, hospital wards, public toilets if they are discharged. It’s not ok
        • Muttonbird

          The article didn't explain how Kardashian was a threat to other women, apart from her mother, who apparently abused her.

          Still not seeing how self-ID makes any difference to this particular incident.

          • Belladonna

            Mr Mannix said he eventually gave a statement to gardaí after he claimed Ms Kardashian threatened to “rape my wife and children and disembowel them”.

            Quote from further down the article.

            It's clear that this is a very disturbed individual. But it's the threat of rape which makes the self-ID issue relevant.

            • Muttonbird

              I think you are searching. Nothing about Ireland’s self-ID changes the threat to the family of Mr Mannix.

              • Molly

                The accused was travelling with a female care worker and assaulted her. I can't find the original article I read but here's another.

                They retain an elevated risk to women because of their self-declared hatred of women, and their actions and threats of violence towards women.


                Barbie Kardashian is a troubled teenager who was “born a male but identifies as female”, and has a history of particularly nasty physical and sexual violence towards women. Having previously torn the eyelids from a female care worker, Kardashian was jailed last year in the women’s wing of Limerick prison following threats of violence against two individuals. According to the court report, Kardashian was “very anxious she be detained in a prison facility for females, as she identifies as a female”.

                Already there was a “pre-operative, pre-hormone therapy”, male-to-female transgender prisoner who had been convicted of ten counts of sexual assault and one count of cruelty against a child.

                • Muttonbird

                  Violence against authority is common amongst troubled youth. Violence against fellow inmates is also common amongst troubled youth. It has nothing to do with self-ID.

                  • Molly

                    The consequences of inclusive policy based on self-id puts women at increased risk of harm.

                    • Muttonbird

                      I don't think it does. What increases harm is amateur landlordism and all the pressures of bringing up all children in healthy, stable environments.

                      Can't be done right now for a lot of people.

                    • Molly


                      Why do you believe that women's prison estates were created?

                      Housing is an issue, but oh, this tactic of telling women that they should show their concern on other topics before this is a tired one.

                      This thread is about how the impact of self-id in terms of policy for single-sex spaces puts women at increased risk of harm (and skews statistical data).

                    • weka

                      women in prison have been raped by males who self-ID as women. How is putting those trans women in women's prison not an increased risk of harm?

                    • Muttonbird

                      I'd be writing to the prison authorities in question to ensure that didn't happen.

                    • Molly


                      "I'd be writing to the prison authorities in question to ensure that didn't happen."

                      That is the thrust of the campaign regarding KPSS. Keep Prisons Single Sex.

                      There is no data that is used to rationalise the breaking of the single sex boundary for the prison estate.

                      Vulnerable men – who are not transgender – remain housed in the men's prison estate. Men who are trans-identified have not been shown to be more vulnerable than these others: young men, men with limited mental capacity, men with FASD and easily manipulated, men who are physically small or weak, men who are more effeminate in nature.

                      It is the responsibility of the men's estate to house all of these men safely.

                  • Anker

                    Self ID enables the likes on Ms K to be housed with other women and girls. Ms K threatens to rape children and women. What leads you to deny this is a problem?
                    “i’d be writng to prison authorities to ensure that doesn’t happen”. And will you also write to the councils asking them to ensure that male bodied people don’t access women’s toilets?

                    How about putting women, who are by far the majority, ahead of people who are male but want to identify as female? You see when men start denying there is a problem with self ID it tends to suggest they either don’t understand women’s position or don’t give a shit.

                    And if you don’t give a shit about women, how about you start thinking about girls and teen girls? Why should they have to put up with male bodied people in the spaces?

              • weka

                I think you are searching. Nothing about Ireland’s self-ID changes the threat to the family of Mr Mannix.

                My reading of Joyce's comment is this. Genderists in the UK in particular point to Ireland as an example of a country that already has legal self-ID (UK doesn't) as a kind of 'see, there are no problems with self-ID, it won't hurt to bring it in'.

                Self-ID doesn't make this young man be violent. It enables him into women's spaces and to have his violence crime recorded as a woman's crime and reported as such in the MSM i.e. the MSM is deceiving the public. Those are obvious problems, do they really have to be explained?

              • Belladonna

                Your comment was

                The article didn't explain how Kardashian was a threat to other women, apart from her mother, who apparently abused her.

                I answered it with evidence from further down the article – showing that K has explicitly threatened sexual violence (specifically rape) to other women. In that context, the fact that K is biologically male (while self-identifying as a woman) is absolutely relevant.

                Other commenters have addressed why this is relevant in a more general societal context. I was making the point, that it is directly relevant in this specific case. K is physically equipped to actually carry out the sexual assault.

          • Anker

            She also threatened to rape her care workers wife.

            I don't want male bodied people who self id as women in woman's spaces.

      • Molly 7.1.2

        There are a few problems here:

        Violence statistics by sex for both victim and perpetrator are skewed,

        Current policy to house self-identified transwomen in women's estate puts vulnerable women at risk (and possibly staff too);

        Accused has not undertaken either medical or surgical transition, and retains full strength and sexual and physical violence capacity.

        As an individual, it is apparent this person requires a high level of care and some form of restraint for public safety.

        But for reasons above, not in the women's estate. And not counted as a woman in terms of data.

        • Muttonbird

          I looked up Coovagh House and it does not say it is in the women's estate, whatever that means. It is for troubled children.

          From the article which Helen Joyce tweeted:

          Coovagh House takes residents aged 11 to 17 years…The court heard that Coovagh, which has capacity for four residents, houses young people who have experienced childhood trauma, and who are at risk to themselves and or others. It is one of only four such units in the State, and that residents are placed in the units specifically on foot of orders of the High Court.

          • Molly

            20 yrs old now. AFAIK, housed in Limerick's Women's Prison, as above. As per policy.

            Any comments at all on risk factors?

          • Anker

            Ms Kardasian in not a woman. They shouldn't be in women's spaces. Many of us women don't want them there.

          • Anker

            I would suggest "Ms Kardasian" isn't housed with women or childrent.

            Traumatized children shouldn’t have to put up with them

      • weka 7.1.3

        These threats any less likely to happen if Ireland did not have self-ID?

        How ever transphobic to suggest there is a connection between violence and self-ID. Feminists on the other hand are pointing to male pattern violence and saying stop reporting this as women's crime. It's not.

        Or is it just the label, "Woman (20)", you are worried about?

        What's the 'just' in your sentence for?

        • Muttonbird

          Twitter being what it is, Helen Joyce's statement was solely about the ID of Woman (20), which your repost of it here affirmed, hence the 'just'.

          There was nothing else from either yourself, or Helen Joyce.

          • weka

            I'm asking you why you are minimising the importance of reporting a male crime as a female crime.

            Or is it just the label, "Woman (20)", you are worried about?

            implies that it's no big deal for this to be reported in this way.

            • Muttonbird

              As I said, you didn't give anyone much to go on. You literally retweeted anti self-ID and that's it.

              We are asked here at The Standard to back up with contribution, argument, and links.

              You just did the link. Really hard to know what you actually meant.

              • weka

                cool, if you want to know I am more than happy to explain.

                One of the main issues in the gender/sex war is about language and who gets to name what. We have a major problem with male violence against women and girls (MVAWG). When we allow men to self-ID and that mean they are treated for all intents and purposes as women, we then get the MSM reporting this as a woman's crime. Women rarely do crimes like this, violence of this type is overwhelmingly done by men, generally to females.

                When genderists get to control the language, it becomes harder to talk about MVAWG. Some people will accuse people of being transphobic for talking about MVAWG. MSM mislead (the IG could have reported this as a transgender crime if it didn't want to report it as a male crime, but it needed to be made clear that the person is biologically male).

                Other issues arise. If self-ID means that society must refer to TW as female, then rape victims in court i.e. women who have been raped by men, can be required to refer to the accused as 'she'. This is both demeaning, as well as potentially retraumatising. It's also a mindfuck and institutional abuse.

                This week there's debate about using terms like 'birthing bodies' when talking about abortion. If women lose the ability to talk about our sex based oppression we will not be able to retain rights. The conservatives in the US will both remove abortion rights and adopt neoliberal concepts like 'birthing bodies' because when you dehumanise women, or objectify them, it becomes much easier to remove more of their rights.

                There are lots of rights being challenged in the US currently, and women's rights is one of them that needs to be named very clearly if we want to talk meaningfully about what is happening. Conservatives aren't just attacking rights that happen to be women's, the attack is on women specifically because they are female and they hold reproductive power.

                tl;dr, self-ID causes all sorts of problems for women because it says we don't exist as a sex class any more.

  8. Anker 8
    • So Ms Kardashian is a biological male then. Of course
  9. ianmac 9

    This You Tube argues that Putin will soon face a Russian rebellion. Wouldn't that be a good outcome.

    Indisputable with Dr. Rashad Richey

    A Kremlin coup comprised of former generals and KGB officials may be increasingly likely in Moscow, according to multiple reports. Dr. Rashad Richey and Wosny Lambre discuss on Indisputable. Tell us what you think in the comments below. Read more here: https://www.cityam.com/kremlin-on-hig… "Rumours are swirling in Moscow that a number of former generals and KGB officials are preparing to oust Russia’s president Vladimir Putin and plan to end the war in Ukraine, which is increasingly seen across Russia as a strategic mistake and, above all, an economic disaster. The top of Putin’s former employer – the Russian security service FSB – is said to be so frustrated about the lack of military progress in Ukraine that it has reached out to a number of generals and former army officials, according to various analysts and local media reports." *** Indisputable, features Dr. Richey talking about the top news stories of the day, reading viewer comments, and engaging in debates and conversations with guests. Help support our mission and get perks. Membership protects TYT's independence from corporate ownership and allows us to provide free live shows that speak truth to power for people around the world.

  10. Jester 10

    Jacinda has confidence in everyone (even Mallard).

    ""Absolutely," Ardern said on Thursday, when asked if she still has confidence in Williams.

    The problem is, that the public doesn't." – that sums it up.

    Most Kiwis think Police Minister is too soft on crime, Newshub poll finds (msn.com)

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