Daily review 05/05/2023

39 comments on “Daily review 05/05/2023 ”

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1. Anker 1

   5 May 2023 at 7:20 pm

   https://www.speakupforwomen.nz/post/speak-up-for-women-respond-to-report-by-the-disinformation-project

   good on SUFW for pushing back against the disinformation project. They have used pictures of a peaceful protest to illustrate the disinformation projects claims of white supremacy genocide etc. this surely is dangerously close to defamation?
   • observer 1.1

     5 May 2023 at 7:50 pm

     But for those who don't live in a tiny echo chamber of denial, here's what the report revealed:

     https://thespinoff.co.nz/internet/05-05-2023/tracking-the-surge-in-online-anti-trans-hate-sparked-by-posie-parkers-visit

     At some point you need to face up to who your new friends are (spoiler alert: not people who care about women's rights). They may not be the allies you want, but they are the ones you've got. And it's killing your cause.
     • Anker 1.1.1

       5 May 2023 at 7:58 pm

       What rubbish Observor. The report has not been peer reviewed. Hannah by her own admission says

       wo aspects stood out particularly: the solidifying and intensifying of hate towards trans people and the use of specific tactics, such as sharing gifs and images or utilising certain features of online communities, that Hannah said may indicate overseas interference or influence.

       Get that. May indicate overseas interference or influence.

       There might well be hate on the dark web. I don’t know I never visit them nor would I want to.

       Its time you faced up to the fact that gender critical feminists are the playthings of alt right. We. have our own minds.

       I have many contacts who are gender critical and without exception, they are all from the left, many lesbian.
       • SPC 1.1.1.1

         5 May 2023 at 10:49 pm

         The right wing groups are openly active in the USA.

         It was unwise of K-JK to call for men to drag the transgender out of women's public spaces. Of course this sort of behaviour by the right – the so called violent face of bigotry of the social conservative against the same sex and now transgender, is not really one in support of women's rights.

         The sooner this cause is less reliant on resourcing/funding from the right the better. Dworkin warned about working with the right back in 1983 – even where there is agreement.
     • Shanreagh 1.1.2

       5 May 2023 at 9:32 pm

       I wish I could understand your point Observer, I suspect it is one of those 'not a very sharp one but still a point' kind of statements.

       Who are the new friends?

       Who are the allies?

       What is the cause that is being killed?

       The Disinformation report is a once over lightly look at the events of something……

       The point about Albert Park & KJM was that the women who were trying to speak about Women's issues were denied this opportunity by transactivists who had been built up into a 'froth' by misinformations and 'hit' and 'snow' jobs by the media.

       https://quillette.com/2023/05/04/the-auckland-mobbing-of-kellie-jay-keen-was-fuelled-by-media-peddled-misinformation/

       The concern of Anker and myself is basically with the issues and rights of Women. Many of us have been around following these issues/causes for many years and in my case/partners case our mothers before us while some have female ancestors who signed the suffrage petition in 1893.

       It is no secret that many woman view with concern that men dressed as women are seeking access to female safe spaces, and in competing against women in sports.

       So the cause of women and our rights is not likely to be killed any time soon.

       Our allies/friends come from all walks of life and political persuasions just as they have throughout history.

       SUFW has been a clearing house and breath of fresh air in NZ on these issues.

       The aborted Albert Park & Wellington visits in fact have signalled to NZ women that mysogyny is alive and well.

       Meanwhile KJM has had successful rallies, the last one I watched was in Belfast where competent policing enabled the women who wanted to speak on a variety of issues.

       I suspect many find KJM and her true to biology saying 'Women don't have pensises' and 'Men don't have vaginas' is getting close to 'exposing' the modern day equivalent of the fairy story 'The Emperor has no clothes'.

       Or do you believe that biology can be changed ie every single cell in the body can be changed from male to female.

       Do tell.
     • RedLogix 1.1.3

       5 May 2023 at 9:57 pm

       Nah – this is the bog standard 'smear by association' game.

       No matter how sane any mass cause is, there will be a group of unacceptable extremists on the margins who will park themselves adjacent in order to hijack some of the attention and political resource.

       And then guaranteed some intellectually lazy doofus will exploit this to pretend that the mainstream cause is discredited by these nutters who’ve latched on at the margins.

       On reflection I feel like Captain Obvious just typing this out.
       • observer 1.1.3.1

         5 May 2023 at 10:11 pm

         The margins? USA Republicans?

         Either you are choosing not to know, or you know but need to pretend otherwise. I don't know which, but if it is genuine ignorance, let me help (and of course there are hundreds of other examples, I'm sure you know how to Google …).

         It is a deliberate strategy. It is working, but only if people pretend it isn't happening.

         https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/16/us/politics/transgender-conservative-campaign.html

         https://edition.cnn.com/2023/04/30/politics/republicans-transgender-attacks-statehouse-haley-trump/index.html
         • RedLogix 1.1.3.1.1

           5 May 2023 at 10:23 pm

           Why is this in the slightest bit surprising? If you cannot work out that socially conservative people might well have sincere and profound concerns around many aspects of this radical biology denying trans-rights movement – you really are not paying attention.
           • observer 1.1.3.1.1.1

             5 May 2023 at 10:51 pm

             See my comment at 1.1.

             I'm not the one claiming that it isn't a conservative, far right cause. It obviously is. We know, because they keep telling us so.

             At least you're honest about it, which is preferable to denial.
             • RedLogix …

               5 May 2023 at 11:05 pm

               If you perceive this strand of commonplace social conservatism as 'far right', you might want to contemplate how it is you got to be that far away from them.

               The vast majority of them are going to be pretty unremarkable, working class people who hold down jobs, committed to family, faith and community. The kind of people who make your world work.

               They don't have goats head soup for dinner and eat babies.
             • Anker …

               5 May 2023 at 11:30 pm

               I don't think anyone would argue that gender critical feminists are a far right cause, the idea is laughable.

               I know that a lot of Christian conservatives are against gender ideology, and they have their own reasons for that (a lot of them are concerned about the medical transition of children).

               I think it is called a silogism.

               Gender critical feminists challenge gender ideology.

               Right wing conservatives challenge gender ideology.

               Therefore all gender critical feminists must be right wing.

               BTW Observor, I think its time you faced the fact of who you are supporting IF you are supporting the trans rights activists….read SUFWs press release and see some of the placcards that the tras brought to Albert Park. "F..k off our land C..t". "Suck my dick". Maybe its time you faced up to who your friends are….mysogynists
             • weka …

               5 May 2023 at 11:38 pm

               I'm not the one claiming that it isn't a conservative, far right cause. It obviously is. We know, because they keep telling us so.

               this is just incredibly ignorant. Yes, in the US, there is a strong conservative force to remove trans rights because of ideas about gender normality.

               Meanwhile, in the UK, aka Terf Island, the issues are drive by left and centre left gender critical feminists and other women. Are you not aware of this?

               KJK is in a movement of her own, but have you watched any LWS livestreams and seen the number of left/progressive women that speak?

               In NZ, it's mixed. SUFW are centre left and left as well as conservative. Women's Liberation Aotearoa are left wing feminists.

               In the same way that feminists and conservative women have historically opposed porn, there are some superficial overlaps but the underlying values and positions are very different.
         • weka 1.1.3.1.2

           5 May 2023 at 11:21 pm

           What's the connection between US Republicans and Speak Up For Women in NZ?
           • SPC 1.1.3.1.2.1

             5 May 2023 at 11:59 pm

             Not that much.

             A bit like Woman's Place UK, they do not have any. But WPUK do not associate with Keen because of views on race and religion in the UK and connections to American right wing groups that oppose same sexuality and womens body agency.

             https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woman%27s_Place_UK

             But Kellie-Jay Keen does.

             Such as CPAC.

             Speaking earlier on Thursday, Keen confirmed links to conservative group CPAC Australia while denouncing neo-nazis as “abhorrent”.

             CPAC Australia is a libertarian organisation that is currently petitioning against an indigenous voice in Australia’s parliament, and aligns itself with Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher. It is linked to the United States’ CPAC, full name Conservative Political Action Conference, which famously supports former US president Donald Trump.

             https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/wellington/131584121/human-rights-groups-seek-interim-order-to-stop-posie-parker-coming-to-nz

             https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/posie-parker-anti-trans-rally-attracted-a-range-of-far-right-groups-researchers-say/T6AMCXNMUFGDPBIT5SY5ALBR5U/
       • Anker 1.1.3.2

         7 May 2023 at 8:29 pm

         Brilliant REd Logix. You have nailed it
2. adam 2

   5 May 2023 at 7:25 pm

   The oligarchs would rather us die, than let us have any form of plan solution to environmental issues, or even child labour laws.
3. Ad 3

   5 May 2023 at 7:57 pm

   The reaction of Hipkins and Jackson to the defection to TMP is one of the most adroit and nuanced reactions I've seen:

   Stay Calm and Lock Your 3rd Term In

   Hipkins may look like he got done by Tamihere, but in reality Tamihere got used by Hipkins to lock out Luxon.

   Well played the Team.

   Meanwhile the Greens tonight are doing fencing with canned Asparagus spears.
   • RedLogix 3.1

     5 May 2023 at 8:05 pm

     What policy concessions do you imagine might have to be offered to lock in Ngarewa-Packer and Waititi as senior Ministers?
     • Ad 3.1.1

       6 May 2023 at 1:12 am

       A couple of chaufferred BMWs for caucus, and a juicy health contract for Tamihere.

       If they had a brain it'd be the cross-benches
     • Ngungukai 3.1.2

       6 May 2023 at 4:16 am

       Special K is very disappointed Meka has decided to leave the Labour Party for TMP and will be their candidate for Ikaroa Maori Seat in the forthcoming General Election 2023.
   • Patricia Bremner 3.2

     5 May 2023 at 9:46 pm

     I agree Ad, both Hipkins and Jackson are pure politics, and "won the change".

     Luxon has 'left the building' Politically dead.
4. Belladonna 4

   5 May 2023 at 10:48 pm

   Elizabeth Kerekere has resigned from the GP – and intends to sit as an independent until the election, when she will retire.

   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/elizabeth-kerekere-breaks-silence/5PZ2JDCA5ZB4RK7ACICLU3EHKI/

   Question: Has she informed the Speaker?
   • SPC 4.1

     5 May 2023 at 10:54 pm

     As there is no waka jumping, it's one definitely covered by standing orders.

     The MK case was the same on balance, as she did not join another caucus – just intends to during the term of the next parliament.
     • Belladonna 4.1.1

       5 May 2023 at 11:11 pm

       I thought they just had to resign from the party they were elected for, to trigger the provisions.

       Of course, we now know that it has to be in a print letter, with a handwritten signature, according to the Speaker's …. unique …. interpretation of the legislation.

       The legislation automatically vacates an MP's seat if they deliver a signed, written notice to the Speaker resigning from the party they were elected for.

       https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/489284/why-has-the-waka-jumping-legislation-not-been-invoked-for-meka-whaitiri

       [The article is, of course, in reference to Whaitiri – but the provisions would be the same for Kerekere]
       • SPC 4.1.1.1

         5 May 2023 at 11:27 pm

         Otago University law professor Andrew Geddis told Checkpoint the issue was complicated because there were two separate sets of rules running side by side.

         "The first set is the Electoral Act rules, which are law, statute law, which govern when a MP who leaves their party also vacates their seat, loses their seat in Parliament.

         "Then alongside those are the sort of standing orders, Parliament's own internal rules, which govern how MPs are going to be treated for internal parliamentary purposes and internal processes of the House."

         The Speaker decides on the second, and apparently also determines the formal notification in respect to the first (and can therefore decide for parliament as to the legislation enactment). Where the two agree, and the Speaker decides this, the two sets of rules are in lockstep – a term significant given the Speaker’s authority over unlocking the doors.

         It can be presumed that EK has been informed as to the correct way to remain in parliament and avoid being in the Green caucus room.
         • RedLogix 4.1.1.1.1

           5 May 2023 at 11:31 pm

           Geddis is clearly unimpressed:

           But Geddis said he believed the speaker should publicly release any correspondence from Whaitiri given it was a constitutional issue.

           Whaitiri was very forthright in her media conference saying that quit Labour and was now a member of Te Pāti Māori, he said.

           "And then when she went to the speaker she was far more circumspect and basically said 'just to let you know Labour can't cast my vote anymore and I'm going to be sitting apart from them'."

           Whaitiri actually voted in favour of the waka-jumping law but now that she wished to leave Labour seemed to have found a loophole, he said.

           "She seems to have found this by luck or good design, this way around the rules that she voted should apply, in a way that allows her to remain an MP but also get recognised as being an independent.

           "She gets to have her cake and eat it too – even though she voted for law that said this shouldn't happen. You know, go figure."
           • SPC 4.1.1.1.1.1

             6 May 2023 at 12:05 am

             As Gerry Brownlee said in the House, when he silenced calls by those who should breath through their nose and listen to wiser counsel from others – communications to the Speaker by MP's are private matters.
             • RedLogix …

               6 May 2023 at 12:20 am

               What the Speaker said was 'do you really want me to start making your correspondence public?' A sly threat if there ever was.

               And while I accept there is a convention to keep this correspondence private, is this covered by legal privilege in any fashion? Is this an absolute privacy covered by legislation?

               Because as Geddis states, this correspondence goes to the heart of a constitutional and legal matter that reflects directly on the credibility of the Speaker and the House.

               Our system places an extreme degree of trust in the Speaker as is evidenced in this case where Ruawhe is effectively adjudicating on his own actions. Which surely puts the onus on him to be fully transparent and above suspicion.
               • SPC …

                 6 May 2023 at 12:28 am

                 Did legislation intend that the Speaker to be required to breach convention, or did it allow the Speaker to decide?

                 MP's mess with the referee at their peril.
                 • RedLogix …

                   6 May 2023 at 1:04 am

                   Well I am impressed at how you quoted Geddis in one context where it suited you, but rapidly pivoted to discount him when his view did not.

                   You might consider taking up gymnastics – a gold medal is surely in your future
                   • SPC …

                     6 May 2023 at 1:18 am

                     Hardly Nancy Drew, another and yourself tried to use Geddis – I just noted he was aware there were two factors in play.

                     The Speaker decides on the second, and apparently also determines the formal notification in respect to the first (and can therefore decide for parliament as to the legislation enactment). Where the two agree, and the Speaker decides this, the two sets of rules are in lockstep – a term significant given the Speaker’s authority over unlocking the doors.

                     And

                     from there noted the obvious supremacy of the Speaker that both tradition and the recent legislation provided

                     And so

                     Did legislation intend that the Speaker to be required to breach convention, or did it allow the Speaker to decide?

                     MP's mess with the referee at their peril.

                     Brownlee seemed to be the first of National to realise it was a lost cause.
               • Peter …

                 6 May 2023 at 8:09 am

                 A casual question of a member asking them to consider how they’d feel about their correspondence being public is not necessarily asked as a threat.
         • weka 4.1.1.1.2

           5 May 2023 at 11:31 pm

           SPC, can you please stop using coloured text. It's too hard to read.
           • SPC 4.1.1.1.2.1

             6 May 2023 at 12:10 am

             OK, but it was probably keeping the blood pressure of red down.
   • Stuart Munro 4.2

     6 May 2023 at 5:34 am

     ABDICATION, n. An act whereby a sovereign attests her sense of the high temperature of the throne.

     Poor Isabella's Dead, whose abdication
     Set all tongues wagging in the Spanish nation.
     For that performance 'twere unfair to scold her:
     She wisely left a throne too hot to hold her.
     To History she'll be no royal riddle—
     Merely a plain parched pea that jumped the griddle.

     Ambrose Bierce

     That will save the Greens a few votes.
5. weka 5

   6 May 2023 at 12:13 am

   With Kerekere leaving, if the Greens hold their vote, Steve Abel will be in as an MP. Which would be a good thing.

   https://www.greens.org.nz/green_party_releases_initial_candidate_list_for_2023_election
   • weka 5.1

     6 May 2023 at 12:13 am

     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Abel
6. SPC 6

   6 May 2023 at 12:26 am

   To 7% (GG) for all the current MP's on that list. 7.5% is 9 MP's (Pham), over 8% for Abel (10) and to 9% for Collins as well (11).
   • weka 6.1

     6 May 2023 at 12:39 am

     that would be a good refresh for the party.

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