Just listened to RNZ's coverage of MSD's systemic breach of privacy.
Particularly the disabled woman saying that she couldn't have a relationship unless her partner supported her. This increases risk of abuse in the relationship. She thought that that this might be a breach of her human rights…because every person deserves a loving relationship… good point. Surely a caring government would change this?
So, I've been reading "The Health of the People" by David Skegg. Basically arguing that public health has been neglected by NZ governments for decades, being sidelined by the MoH focus on personal health services.
An interesting case study is Skegg's recollections of the creation (and quick elimination) of the Public Health Commission in the 1990s. When it started looking at alcohol and tobacco and food, nat ministers started opposing the PHC. Bill Birch telling Skegg "The Dairy Board and the Wine Institute are friends of ours; we work very closely with them." Maurice Williamson yelled expletives at Skegg. Then the nats closed down the PHC before repealing the legislation requiring the PHC to exist.
During the 90s when National was in control, the Health system was steadily underfunded. A partial charge was introduced for patients undergoing treatment. As the Hospitals began to seriously fail, talks were underway to get USA private medical providers to take over. The idea was that clearly the Public Health System was broken so we need Private Providers.
It nearly worked then surprise surprise during the recent reign of National, they tried again with serious underfunding. In Britain that is exactly what is happening now. Lucrative areas are now privately run to profit USA providers.
There are some full-on descriptions in the book. The PHC CEO gave a speech in one of the regions. The PHC chair was summoned to a minister's office after the minister had been supplied a transcript of the speech by a liquor company in Auckland and the PM had received a phone call from the liquor industry.
Ok, there may be a few inconsistenses in this but I have to get it out of my system.
I am going to link bullying (in bullying free week of all times), mens behaviour and the willing lack of entertaining an idea from left field.
I got part way Open Mike then a good old fashioned TS pile on broke out.
" With pinkies and a full tub of lube, of course "
" What a tit. " " vacuous twerp "
"take a day off fuckwit"
" same stupid fucktard decision "
etc etc.
then someone who should now better, you will remember them from the school ground, chipping in with wry observations, stoking the flames in case they were to die down.
This is NOT (there you go, the beloved bold, underlined and italisized) a desire to revisit the vacination/abortion issues, it is a plea to reflect on what went on.
No matter how you view it there was misogynist behaviour albeit perhaps unintended, there was bullying and there was a total lack of willingness to consider an idea, perhaps challenging but by no means illegitimate.
Please list your concerns. No-one was getting bullyed. Any appearance of standover tactics were just countering stand-over tactics.
Who do you think was the winner and why?
… there was a total lack of willingness to consider an idea, perhaps challenging but by no means illegitimate.
Do you mean illegitimate as in Alabama? The whole thread was out of skew, so I don't know how you could consider anything of value in it after having received the knockout blow by the loudmouth, of whatever gender.
Sabine telling mothers to fuck off, The Al1en's dumb twats, both are: " Further reports from Psychology Today cite that a true misogynist has disdain for women who defy their "rules." from Psychology Today.
"And if by anti-vaccination you mean “perhaps challenging but by no means illegitimate” then no, it isn’t challenging and is illegitimate."
" ( i had to kick out a women with her daughter covered in pustules – but she is no longer contagious – fuck you women i don't give a shit take your kid home and stay there until she is clear or you produce a doctors certificate that she is clear now) "
I don't think you can call mysogyny on a single post that uses a woman as the example. Does Sabine have a history of this because using a single example wherein a woman is used does not a mysoginist make
Sorry, I just don't think that is enough to claim the whole thread is an example of misogynist behaviour.
I would kick out a women with her daughter covered in pustules – but she is no longer contagious – fuck you women i don't give a shit take your kid home and stay there until she is clear or you produce a doctors certificate that she is clear now.
" Sorry, I just don't think that is enough to claim the whole thread is an example of misogynist behaviour"
I made no such claim.
Apologise for not what understanding what I wrote if you feel remorseful.
You asked for the mysogynist behaviour, I gave you two examples.
Perhaps in this non bullying week it would be better to ask the husband (who, by the way, doesn’t exisit in the example) to please leave. No need to double down on the violence.
Edit: run out of reply buttons:
“I’m not sure what I should feel remorseful about…?”
You used the word sorry, did you not mean it?
And is also a wildly unlikely target for accusations of misogyny or bullying. I always enjoy your comments (in full awareness that the feeling may not be mutual).
The Al1en's dumb twats, both are: " Further reports from Psychology Today cite that a true misogynist has disdain for women who defy their "rules." from Psychology Today.
Parents who don't vaccinate their kids are, in my opinion, dumb twats, male and female, and both make the same fucktard decision. If it’s disdain, it’s for those pro disease parents.
There's not an ounce of misogyny anywhere in that if it applies equally to both sexes.
The rest of it gsays…yes they pile on…like the bully gangs, and none of them actually bother to read or watch fully the information provided to support a point of view. Back in the day it was considered manners to at least read what the other person has provided if one was going to argue against it.
And actually familiarize oneself with the entire discussion before parachuting in with the derision and abuse.
That is just complete daft bullshit. Lying like that really doesn’t help your argument – to me it associated you with word “nutter”.
I have no idea which disease you’re talking about. However you’re dead wrong about getting lifelong immunity from catching any disease.
..and even when I responded with supporting evidence about the disease which was the topic of the discussion….he offered no apology, or no hint of retraction.
It was at that point that I realised that it was futile expecting to have anything approaching a reasoned and evidenced- based discussion about contentious issues when the Top Man sets such a standard.
i made it clear that i respected the choice of people to not vaccinate their children.
and then i made it clear that i would tell – in fact told a women (who may or may not be the actual mother of that child) to take the sick child – who was covered in pustules as if she was sick with mesels or chicken pox and take her out of my business and take her home – after said mother / women said "oh surely you won't mind she is not longer contagious'.
this is not quite 'tells mothers fuck of'
However i do reserve the right to tell pepole to leave my business if i believe that their actions might endanger myself, my staff or my customers.
but then maybe you are not interested in polite conversation, maybe you are literally just interested in creating a shit storm for shits n giggles yourself.
so please go find a tree, sit under it and enjoy the full moon.
English is not my first languae its my third. correct. Now that you got that bit out of you – do you feel better?
Nope, a child covered in pustules might be contagious. I actually put that think up about Mumps to simply show that you or any other non vaccinated person can be contagious without knowing, and that you don't need a lot to get a many people ill in what can be a devastating illness to some.
Your right to be against vaccines and to refuse them does not give you the right to endanger others.
I made it clear that i do not have an issue with people not vaccinating their children, but that i do not approve of them parading their sick children about town.
This women – if you must know, after all you seem curious and seem to read a lot that is neither said nor typed between the lines, came in to my shop – a food business that is heavily regulated – a costly thing too if you care at all, with a child covered in pustules. Poor thing might actually will have to live with facial scars for the rest of her life, but who cares , she has no rights – only her parents have right? The women says we are bored at home so i am taking her 'window shopping', and surely you don't mind she is no longer contagious. Like , wow , Lady stop right here…….
At that point i told that women ' that i do mind indeed, take your child and leave, now. go home. – and she did.
cause Fuck right there lady, you do not get to parade your sick child about town, endangering others who might don't want to get sick or have their babies – that are yet to young to get vaccinated get sick, or the people have chemo therapy (my shop is next to a clinic that offers these type of treatments and i have quite a few that come for a moment of escape and to just breathe).
and that is something i feel strongly about. Maybe because i have had many illnesses throughout my life, maybe because i have had friends that died of aids, have hepatitis C because past lovers did not state that they were ill, maybe just simply because i believe taht your right to choose does not over ride my right to choose.
and i am done with you Rosemary. Literally done. You are looking for a fight and i can't be bothered with you.
As before, please kindly find a tree, sit under it, and enjoy what ever you might enjoy.
Yes, people forget that before vaccinations sick kids were kept away from everyone – I was home with Rubella (German Measles) for 2-3 weeks as a kid some time in the 60s, why? because women in the community were having kids with birth defects if they were exposed, it wasn't an academic exercise, it was mums and kids at Plunket who were dealing with the fallout.
So if you have unvaccinated kids yes you do take on the responsibility of your actions, that includes staying home with the kids for 2-3 weeks when they get ill, like my Mum had to
I was at the GPs yesty, near the end he offered me a 'flu vaccine, I told him I would rather chew tinfoil, he laughed at left it at that.
My man is in the group that has always been eligible for the free flu jab…significant physical disability, older, has undergone treatment for leukaemia etc….yet not once has he ever been offered the flu shot. And it's not that he lives in a cage and doesn't get out much…and even after an emergency hospital visit and a trip to the GP with sinus in the last couple of weeks…he still hasn't been offered the flu jab.
They had to threaten the medical staff at Waikato Hospital to make them have flu shots…so many refused the free ones. Nurses, and doctors….funny that.
"I'm hoping that over the last two to three years, we've matured as an organisation and people will see the sense in being vaccinated, especially when it's offered free at work."
“They can have a difference of opinion. There is more than one alternative way of handling it.
They’re not being told, as they were two years ago, it’s my way or the highway. There’s no combative approach at the top.”
No, that will be it.
The threats and bullying were rebuffed by staff….but the bullying tactics can still be seen in the article you linked to.
gsays: some people speak English as she is fucking spoke by good cunts. Rather than being offended by plain English words, instead be offended by irrationalism – that's a far worse purpose for the English language to be directed to.
Sure – it's upwards of a decade since I've had to phrase things for a six-year-old, but why the hell not:
Grandma doesn't like to hear you say fuck and cunt, so please don't use those words around her. Also your teachers. Otherwise it's all good. More important: some people claim things are true when they aren't, that's much worse than swearing and don't let them get away with it.
As an aside: I took my then 6yr old with me to stay at a mates place in Northland in his bush block. A week later we are at my mums for dinner and the young fella excused himself with " I am going for a piss', a bit taken aback I replied 'A wee son, at Nanas we go for a wee'.
How do I delete a duplicate statement?
Hmmm, by editing with another statement, there must be another way
Seriously good link Adam, maybe the best I’ve ever got off this site
Taibbi is always worth reading
Yes. Good link and worth thinking about. The first six rules not behind the subscribe wall are:
1. There are only two ideas … binary thinking.
2. The two ideas are in permanent conflict … confrontation as the default
3. Hate the people, not the systems … reduce everything to personalities
4. Everything is someone else's fault … abdication of personal responsibility
5. Nothing is everyone's fault … abdication of collective responsibility
6. Root, don't think … erase the nuances and complexities with primal emotions
We see these game rules being played out here all the time. Personally I don't mind what part of the political spectrum you occupy, what ideas you promote … what really matters is how you argue for them. Because this is the best indicator of how you would implement them if you were ever given the opportunity and power to do so.
Or to put it another way, if you cannot argue for your position respectfully, you cannot be trusted with the power to put it into action.
Could you give One Two a month's dropout time? This pernicious person is destroying our ability to discuss anything without it coming back to his/her obsession. The freedom of expression of one+ is killing off discussion amongst others. I note so many don't come here now. However If you think it is because of my gloomy approach, then you can let me go for a while. Just ban me. then I can stop trying.
By the way did any thoughts arise as to the item I wrote?
Steady on grey, I have read the links that have been cited by 1 2. There is a truck load more science than has been offered up by the nay-sayers, particularly today on OM.
If anything was being destroyed it was the position of not wanting to vacinate.
Y'all may not agree with 1 2's position, but I am not chipper about euthanasia. I do however gain a bit of insight from reading a counter opinion.
Here are your comments from a wee chunk of the discussion….
"It could be applied to problematic users or trolls and allowed them to only make one edit every 30mins until the troll either got bored or stopped trolling.
Would be handy to apply to someone like One Two"
" Starting to get the feeling One Two is as high as he/she can count"
" Wha wha wha. Same shit different day "
"The bigotry and misogyny is all in your head. The insults come because you spout such nonsense before accusing other of bigotry and misogyny.
No one has incited harm to others.
It's all down to your mammoth persecution complex"
The entire thread was a dumpster fire and this “”The bigotry and misogyny is all in your head. The insults come because you spout such nonsense before accusing other of bigotry and misogyny.” was in response to One Two specifically and repeatedly calling everyone misogynists and bigots without ever providing any reason for those claims.
Yesterday Muttonbird, out of fucking nowhere, abused me in a thread that was over a day old for no reason and continued it while telling me to “be a big boy” and “not run to the mods”. So why me in isolation when it seems an endemic problem site wide?
“No one has incited harm to others.” No one had yet One Two claimed people had – how is this abusive?
“It’s all down to your mammoth persecution complex” he kept shouting at everyone else, calling them bigots when all any one wanted was him to back his fucking claims up. So it’s pretty much a persecution complex.
Gsays – with all due respect, I have never had any reason to not give you any respect, I don’t think you are A) applying you judgement fairly and B) Idenitifying the actual issues in the thread.
What was there on yesterday's Daily Review? Didn't spot anything on a scroll through.
Nor was there anything significant on yesterday's OM. Sure there were a bunch of unsubstantiated assertions around holistic dentistry, but that's only going to harm suckers and their wallets. It's not going to spread harm and disease throughout the community, so it's not going to get serious pushback, just a bit of snark.
A few issues turn into arguments rather than debates, for a number of reasons.
It's usually the topics that have already been debated ad nauseum, and nothing new has been added from the start.
Then they also tend to either directly or indirectly concern really serious, traumatic, and life -or-death matters. When each side considers the other as killing children or invoting draconian dictatorship, passions run high. So that's why people get worked up.
But as for "bullying", I think a lot of what people call bullying is a frank reaction to abuse and cowardly implications that were delivered without expletives.
The sort of individual who constantly accuses other commenters of not thinking very well, not understanding basic issues, or even having a guilty conscience that makes them particularly vocal about sexual assault.
Some people regard the patois of the street as being significantly less insulting than that sort of nice-language condescension and aspersion. Regardless of how intelligent or catastrophically stupid the condescending person happens to be.
Some commenters I genuinely try to respond to and understand, even though we disagree. The type above, though, I will happily call a "piece of shit".
It's not just vax that we're really talking about, is it?
Assange, 9/11, vax, abortion, all of that stuff. Same shit, different day (sometimes the same day).
Now, on any of those topics you'll get someone like Rosemary or Weka or Milt who does actually present interesting points, and on occasion have helped me change some of my perspectives.
But there's also always some… fucking tool who links to bullshit youtube videos, barely anything at all, or random sources they don't read or understand but has a sentence they like the sound of, reiterates the same bullshit myths every time the subject is raised, and show a basic incompetence in the area of the discussion and a failure to understand the terms they throw around with an air of authority (e.g. "free fall speed" when the debris falling into the street [i.e. outside the "footprint", which is another one] is falling more quickly than the building is collapsing).
If i hear anymore on anti vaccines I will scream. I am so bloody sick of the endless backbiting about this. Totally ineffective at coming to a conclusion. If people come here and want to destroy the effectiveness of this blog for intelligent political discussion over a wide range of subjects that cast light on problems that will affect our future, then they should be banned.
Soppy kindness isn't practical. Taking the line of 'Oh-well-ism' ie oh well he is making some good points, oh well it is unfair because it is…………..(put your favourite label about unfairness in here – suggested choices are 'racist, misogynist' sexist, ageist, mental wellnessist, disablist etc) doesn't enable discussion about important points.
Kindness on the blog should be between people who actually care about others as well as themselves, and want to achieve real better outcomes about the things they care about. It should not be extended to those who just grandstand and fill up the posts with provocative questions and denials and confrontations – they are just filling in their time, the useless buggers. When we respond we fill up our time, which is limited, and don't get onto the things we ourselves know need to be attended to if things are to improve, or just coped with better.
There is so much to think about, to advocate for, and such little movement from authorities, and so little time. It is such an important and short time before climate change and /or rogue countries, trying to abandon the humane rules of integrity we have painfully built up over centuries, succeed in wiping them away by devious means.
That saying that John Lennon used but which apparently was initiated by an illustrator and writer Allen Saunders in 1957:
"Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans".
Can't argue with much of that Grey, only to add that kindness is most effective when extended to all, especially those who hold an opposing view to yours.
Dunno what thread you were reading, but One Two didn't put up a single link or piece of evidence on OM today that I found on a scroll-through.
I've noticed that One Two isn't providing as many links Andre, but then again they have provided all the necessary links in the past ,if you recall…oh, that's right, you're one of the commenters that flies off the keyboard with derision and abuse without actually reading the entire article.
I think you are scared. You are frightened that if you pay too much mind to the papers and articles One Two and I have provided links to it might just poke a few holes in that safe and comfy wee shell you live in.
Rosemary, when One Two (or anyone for that matter) makes a claim, say "Drinking beer makes you blind" and you ask for a citation for that and they say "I already did last week/yesterday/in another thread" it is more than fair to ask "Can you give me that link again" and not be told "Fuck you, go find it yourself".
That is a crude example but that is pretty much One Two's MO.
One Two hasn’t provided anything in the way of citations for his claims so as long as he makes claims that I believe are untrue I’ll ask for evidence. That goes for anyone that makes a claim that makes me go “that sounds like bullshit, please back it up”. If you have the courage of your convictions then provide evidence for it. Just shouting about how you already have isn’t helpful to your cause
And when you ask for an example and get a couple you dance on a pin, or worse, plead innocence:
" All I asked for was evidence and support for the argument. That's it. "
"It could be applied to problematic users or trolls and allowed them to only make one edit every 30mins until the troll either got bored or stopped trolling.
Would be handy to apply to someone like One Two"
" Starting to get the feeling One Two is as high as he/she can count"
" Wha wha wha. Same shit different day "
"The bigotry and misogyny is all in your head. The insults come because you spout such nonsense before accusing other of bigotry and misogyny.
No one has incited harm to others.
It's all down to your mammoth persecution complex"
Hmmm…some folks are simply not that good at reading people are they? There used to be an excellent wee search facility here on TS…and if one was not quite sure where a person was coming from one could go back and try to find out.
Before launching into print.
It might be that One Two just enjoys a good old fashioned barney and knows what will set you bully boys off.
Or it might be that they are truly committed to the issue and is intensely frustrated at being dismissed.
The conduct of that same group of guys speaks for itself…
I'm in no way intimidated by such actions online or in real life…but they are clearly intimidated or threatened by the links which I have been been using in response to those who trigger the vaccine threads…
I've openly stated that I would not start the threads off…but once there is comment made , most often with a derogatory and bigoted incitement to aggression of mothers and parents, I will call it out…
In recent times, there are links and comments which I did post, such as that around the medical journals being extensions of the pharmaceutical industry etc…
I am committed to not having additional harm and damage pushed on those who are already discriminated against, which ever side of any discussion they are on…I would equally speak up against such conduct as seen repeatedly on here, if it were aimed at the so called pro side if harm were being incited against that group…
I don't answer to your demands…you need to get that through your head selway…
What is it that you believe you're achieving in keeping up the position that you should not have to search for links which I have already posted on multiple occasions…they are on this site…
What do you believe you are achieving in maintaining such a transparently insincere position…
Are you hoping that no-one else will notice how insincere and untenable your tactic is…doesn’t really matter…I saw it the day you arrived at this site and made a comment…
Let's see how many more times you can keep this going…
We can begin on the holistic dental discussion another time..as I can see how interested you are in that subject…
You just can't understand the simple concept, that the link Joe posted to was an advertisement for vaccine failure…
One vaccinated patient cohort – One patient with the mumps who was properly vaccinated
Perfect failure rate from the evidence J90 provided.
That is what is called a clue…but you don't care…that is not what you're about …. you're not interested or genuine..you're looking for an online outlet to heap your issues onto others who you see as a threat…
The same way you don't want to read any of the ample evidence available…
Your actions and comments speak to how disingenuous you are.
One patient who was vaccinated properly, but was taking medications that are also immunosuppressive. The immunosuppressive effects of her medication rendered her vaccination status moot.
And yes, the quoted effectiveness of the mumps vaccinations is 88%. But even for those 12% whom the vaccine isn't fully effective, it still reduces the severity of the symptoms. So it's still a massive benefit.
once again One Two – your whole argument is the same as “one cars brakes failed therefore all cars are failures”
your argument is flawed and invalid
But I’d really like to see your research. Can you show me the research that says the mumps vaccine is a 100% failure?
She would have been vaccinated long before developing the condition that required her to take the medication that was immunosuppressive. She didn't get a yellow fever jab for travel because of her immunosuppressed condition. It's there in the thread. Not poor decision making on her and her doctor's part.
Continually saying you have already provided the research and evidence doesn't mean you actually have. It's just an unsubstantiated assertion.
Wild mumps requires lengthy expensive hospital treatment in a substantial number of cases, and even causes some deaths. If you're calling a vaccine that prevents this nasty disease in 88% and greatly reduces the symptoms in the remaining 12% a vaccine failure, then the word failure clearly means something different to you then it does to the general public.
You're seriously sending more links to the CDC (who are the vaccine industry.. you don't seem to know that)…
Yet you denied and refused to make use of the DHHS CDC FDA VAERS reporting system data you were provided…
You refused to use it and provided linked excuses to the CDC no less…it’s the official CDC reporting system…
You begged for law suits..I gave you the DHHS NVICP data…and you dismissed it…
Saying that legal rulings don’t ‘prove stuff’..or some lame ass nonsense…
No, Andre…You're continually showing yourself as disingenuous…with every comment you post on this subject…
It's ok Andre…your extreme bias is necessary to support decisions that you've made…and you act accordingly…
It changes nothing..You're still at name caller level…and the vaccine damage and death is still out there…growing in numbers every day…
As are the number of those who are rejecting the industry orthodoxy…
[Andre made a few points and provided one link. Please stick to addressing the points made and leave out all the innuendo and baggage from previous encounters here on TS as it starts to sound like a broken record. If you don’t want to address the points made by others then please refrain from making references to previous exchanges as this not helpful in any way and only starts flame wars – Incognito]
After days and weeks of bigoted comments (not only Andre..not Andre today) and abuse…and that's the moderated comment…
Incognito I see the note…but I do not agree with your comment…I do respect it though..
Andre has done nothing but dismiss all provided links and given farcical excuses for why he can't make use of them. ..for weeks and months…excuses and name calling…
The previous and ample links I’ve provided to Andre…are absolutely relevant…
Background and context is also important…appreciate there is no way you can cover that amount of ground…
I could have hardly written that response to Andre any more nicely than I did..
[I’m not asking for your agreement, only that you respect it. However, you’re again playing the same old record here, which suggests that you either don’t understand my Moderation note or that you simply choose to ignore it thinking that you can get away with it. As I said, address the points and if you can’t or don’t want to, please stay quiet. Context is indeed very important. So, when you address the points, please include an appropriate reference (e.g. a link; that includes links to previous comments, as you have made many here), preferably with a simple explanation as to what is in the link and how that supports your point(s). Referring to ‘bad behaviour’ by another commenter(s) is not addressing the point! – Incognito]
I have been addressing the same points raised by Andre, for weeks now…
Which is why the top half of my response to him is factually relevant and context…
Is it ok for the same disproven and refuted comments to keep being asked…should they go unresponded to…there was nothing out of place in the top half…IMO.
If linking to Andres nonsense will help..ok I’ll do that to…just apply the same to others best you can.
You know what…I'll say the bottom half could have been left off…
If you're going to moderate this way…while the bigotry and outright abuse goes unchecked…that would be unfortunate…
As said…mods are scarce these days and lots of ground to cover…but its been feral..
And I'm not referring to any of my comments…
No games. I said I respected your first note.
[Now you are arguing with me and trying to negotiate what you think you can get away with whilst that awful record is still playing. You are disrespecting my Moderation notes and testing my patience. Address the points and only the points when responding to comments. Last word – Incognito]
That's part of the issue right there: you regard an opponent admitting being wrong on a few points as some sort of victory for you on all points. Which is probably why you refuse to acknowledge any imperfection, be it as trivial as ironised or plaguerised.
So any ancillary point that could be corrected in any normal conversation ends up being grasped as some sort of proof that you're operating at a "higher level", while you waste time and effort making shit up to defend your catastrophic ignorance.
No. You have once again misinterpreted my comment and intention. The number of times I provide corrections to yourself and others here…you then simply discard it to apply twists on what is happening or said…
I actually appreciate that you did concede…albeit the concession was swiftly followed with more contortions…which I quite likely pointed out …again…
You see, I do not view anyone as an opponent that is not how I see the world…and I certainly do not need what you refer to as victory to believe in my own assertions or perspective…
And you're still making excuses mate…the same way you won't even back off from calling me a rape enabling shit heel.
Keep excusing yourself McFlock…as I have previously said…you're too invested in the decisions that you make and are blinded by completed prejudice to those decisions..
That is fine…but then perhaps you should consider not involving yourself..or at least stop making excuses for your own..or the conduct of those guys…
You provided a link that actually supported that claim (and linked to the primary source for that claim). Let's contrast that with:
Keep excusing yourself McFlock…as I have previously said…you're too invested in the decisions that you make and are blinded by completed prejudice to those decisions..
That's pure invention reagrding my motivations, and is frankly quite condescending and insulting. So, in the interests of responding in kind but with brevity, go fuck yourself.
And yet as you pointed out, when I'm demonstrably incorrect, I "concede" (your word).
Given that my impression of you being a rape enabling shit heel was the result of you guessing at the motives of other commenters, and me telling you to go fuck yourself was also the result of you pretending that you know anything about my motivations or prejudices, maybe you should stick to claims you can support rather than diagnosing folks.
You called me that because you didn't like having your motives being questioned…and you decided ‘I’d never been trusted’…which you can’t possibly know…
Nothing I said in that exchange warranted your insult…and yes I still have it…
Calling me what you did should not ever be something which happens…thats how bad an insult of that severity is…
Even if you had unequivocal evidence thats what I am or was doing..which you didn't…that is an abhorrent insult…if you actually knew anything about me…
Which you don't..and you shouldn't assume anything…that's something I say alot here…
No need to diagnose your or anyone of those guys…
The comments leave little room for debate about what sits behind them…
[For how long are you two intending to bring up this single event? Please let it go and stick to the points in comments, not attacking each other. No more warnings – Incognito]
[edit – argh shit, took me ages to find the thread and see where 1-2’s reading comprehension failed yet again, then post it to find a mod note lol. deleted.]
and your flawed data sources have been refuted time and time again in previous threads. Your argument has been demolished so many times yet you stick your head in the sand on the facts. Open your mind
Can't stand those popular Survivor reality TV shows ("Season 38, Survivor: Edge of Extinction, premiered on February 20, 2019."), and an appeal (by grey @7) to lprent to boot One Two off for a month is too close to Survivor: Lowering the Standard, for my liking.
I have very little time for One Two's views on vaccination, and their 'You're incapable of appreciating the evidence" is irritating (deliberately, IMHO). Were it not for the unnecessarily confrontational 'pile-on'/'pile-up' responses, however, they might comment here maybe two or three times a day. Guilty of letting things get too personal myself – still learning when it's best to back off.
Also, were it not for One Two's crusade (that's a deliberate perjorative on my part – still can't resist having a go even as I pretend to be the voice of reason), Rosemary might not have posted the link to Prof. Benn's remarkable TEDx talk, and personally I'm prepared to sluice through a lot of gravel for the occasional nugget.
Everyone will have different thresholds of tolerance for (various) alternative views, but I'm with gsays – One Two stays. Now where did I put that immunity idol?
One of the many research papers arising from the work Benn speaks about in her TED talk.
This paper describes the tragedy that Benn speaks about with barely controlled emotion.
Although lower mortality was expected for DTP-vaccinated children compared with the frail unvaccinated children, DTP vaccination was associated with higher mortality, particularly in girls.
They gave a vaccine thinking to do good and many babies, especially girls, died.
The lead on this paper is not the engaging Prof. Benn, it is this guy ( One Two linked to this yesterday)…who carries so much more gravitas than his choice of shirt might suggest.
Gary Goldman, Ph.D., presents his varicella vaccine findings and whistleblower experience as a lead research analyst in the Antelope Valley Varicella Active Surveillance Project.
He describes how a national chickenpox vaccine program altered the epidemiology of shingles, and ways in which the CDC manipulated data to conceal the unwanted outcomes that occurred.
gsays I thought that you were an older person with commonsense. We don't come here to swap courtesies or curtsies, we come here for robust discussion, and not robust obsessions. One Two is more obsessed than is good for wide discussion, we have reacted, and there appears to be a majority of intelligent commenters who don't find One Two helpful for informed discussion. Are you sure gsays that you really want intelligent discussion or are just here for some time-filling as a new hobby?
I am old enough with enough common sense to know that what you put your attention to feds it. So these "intelligent commenters who don't find One Two helpful for informed discussion." decided conciously to throw derision and abuse (yourself included) at 1 2, thereby feeding the discussion. Rather than scrolling past.
I reckon I have a long enough history here and you have enough nous to get a handle on my motivations.
One Two might have started the dumpster fires, but they've commented 3 times on Daily Review (whoops, 8 times now – tai ho!), whereas you've made 19 comments.
Granted, today's OM was a different story. One Two made ~34 comments, and garnered ~57 responses in the 'back and forth’ – 23 were yours; the remainder were shared among 10 others.
'Pile ons', even when 'justified', ring alarm bells for me.
When you see a fire and don't do anything about it, are you complicit in the destruction it causes? One should at least sound an alarm. If the health and vitality of the blog is of interest to you, don't throw labels like 'pile ons' at someone trying to do something about misuse of freedom of speech. One Two is someone who might like to argue about that and that would be a perfect example of how complete freedom gives the option of complete tyranny and anarchy. This comment is good for another 200 comments I think.
When you see a fire and don't do anything about it, are you complicit in the destruction it causes?
How are you not holding the matches?
don't throw labels like 'pile ons' at someone trying to do something about misuse of freedom of speech
It was indeed a pile on..again..a venomous insult and abuse filled and potentially harmful pile on …by a group of men ..numbering, however many…against myself…
Including yourself in the group of many…
Where was your restraint…where did you call out the others on their abuse…not once in recent weeks have you taken any such stance…
Joe wanted to misuse FOS…I raised a valid question..you didn't like it..so what..no more excuses for yourself or the others…
Should I not be able to respond to the aggression through my own controlled responses?
…you have continued to seek to have my comments censored in many ways…
Asking I be banned..then even martyring yourself (which has seen folk banned in the past)…
And you're still doubling down making excuses for the part you played in the insults and abuse…
That is hardly the conduct of someone with a moral position…which is exactly what you are seeking to attain through this comment I am responding to…
Your comments have actively targeted my own..just as you are doing once again..today.
oh stfu you bullshit artist. You are one sick puppy fella. Don't try and make people feel guilty to appease your twisted fantasies. The words are all there for people to read and draw their own conclusions. There is no misunderstanding or weasel words in what people think. Move on dim – put some 5g shit up or some more dentistry – that is more your level.
What do you care about marty mars? What really, really grabs you where you live so deeply that you are almost compelled to speak out about it at every opportunity?
You offer the odd comment with an attached link to a recent mainstream media article, briefly agree or disagree, then nothing…I'm left hanging waiting for you to share your thoughts and reasoning.
But you are so, so quick with the insults and derision.
You too have the option to simply ignore those who you disagree with.
Andre has your number and I agree with him. You let yourself down imo and even though I feel that I still wish you well. If you don't know what I write about it's because you are not reading or listening – I'm a broken record but not for you. I'm okay with that.
can't hide from the truth… it is inevitable one two, already written, and you play your allotted part like a marionette, never knowing how or why you play the role assigned. a jerk here and a jerk there – ha so funny to watch the wee limbs move – that's your lesson for today – can you dig it?
There will be much discussion over the next wee while about what exactly that statement of your means.
Disagreeing with what a particular person or group purports is not necessarily grounds for silencing or excluding those voices.
One might argue that if a person does not agree with another poster then that person has the ability to simply ignore them.
" When you see a fire and don't do anything about it, are you complicit in the destruction it causes? "
The answer, of course, is a loud and resounding Yes!
Some commenters here are desperate to draw attention to issues they see are of utmost importance to the health of our planet and her inhabitants and will cry Fire!!! in order to get the message out there. Because they just might see an existential threat.
Yes Rosemary very thoughtful. But silenced can be good when someone wants to dominate the arena. There are a lot of problems facing us, almost overwhelming. It is brutal to have someone come onto a blog that attempts to promote intelligent thoughtful discussion and take it over with their particular obsession which creates such emotional response that it smothers all other voices and concerns raised and it is of less interest to those who have valuable points and information and experience.
The value of the blog is negated. That should not be allowed to happen. We need perhaps a Friends of Blog to protect it from such bad treatment and protect it. And the concerns I have will increase with the ability to set up computer systems inserting contentious questions such as One Two does.
And I am trying to keep up with the machine culture. How do you know you aren't talking to a Gnat robot, an ACT dancer keeping us on our mental toes, a dreaded Russian bot etc. I thought the link below was pretty amazing.
It is brutal to have someone come onto a blog that attempts to promote intelligent thoughtful discussion
Again you’re ignoring that the initial comments are most often posted by other commentators…go take a look at the track record..
As recently as a few days ago ..an genuine attempt at flame war was started by HS…
Where were you gw?
And you're still seeking to censor and remove anothers ability to
Post comments
Respond to comments of others
Defend ones own position to an onslaught
You are demanding censorship when you should be demanding those who use aggression, insults and bigoted tactics which are harmful…desist..instead you join in…
As for the Russian bots…
Democrats in America are what you're also looking for…
'Bullying' is one word I would choose to describe the cumulative effect of the (later) responses to One Two's OM comments yesterday. It's entirely possible that my threshold for the detection of bullying is set too low, and it's also possible that I'm misidentifying bullying behaviour. Nevertheless, kindly consider rereading yesterday's prolific exchanges focussing on word choices only (redact names and ignore vaccine-specific content).
I loathe bullying behaviour (particularly when I’m the perpetrator), and reflexively (and often against my better judgement) want to support an underdog. Yesterday's exchanges had too much of the 'pack closing in for the kill' flavour for my taste.
Wow…One Two flamed the fuck out.
That was….beautiful…
You may well have been correct to appeal to lprent for the month-long banning of One Two (in order to put out the 'fire'), but that would be the easy way out and rewarding bullying behaviour, IMHO.
I suggest that wasn't bullying to One Two – that was defensive by TS commenters who value the blog provoked to pronounce against him. I think this was done because he has shown himself to be a two-faced, shallow BS artist pretending to discuss, but actually conducting a smart flamewar. And I am not going to say any more about this because if it has to be explained to people commenting here, I am obviously wrong about TS being a blog of continuing value.
By Vangie Beal In online forums and other online discussion spaces, a flame war is a series of flame posts or messages in a thread that are considered derogatory in nature or are completely off-topic. Often these flames are posted for the sole purpose of offending or upsetting other users.
Thanks grey. Agree that one commenter dominating OM is far from ideal, and think that there are other (better?) ways to address that than inciting the individual to reply.
For example, would you be upset and/or tempted to respond if someone posted this description?
Greywarshark has shown himself to be a two-faced, shallow BS artist pretending to discuss, but actually conducting a smart flamewar.
Can help agreeing with the writings of Vangie Beal. Always worth thinking about whether comments will offend/upset before posting.
Often these flames are posted for the sole purpose of offending or upsetting other users.
Yes I would be likely to respond if someone applied my description of the offender to myself. Because I would say that evidence shows it isn't true, though occasionally I might err. Whereupon if someone points that out to me, I will consider it and probably agree and amend my ways. That One Two will not do. One should not be stopped from ever criticising another because they would not like the argument to be reversed, and a reasonable criticism is worthy of a reasonable answer.
Your comment about the description of flamewars. How can one draw attention to one if the result is to be accused of starting a flamewar?
'Always worth thinking about whether comments will offend/upset before posting.'
Your attempt at putting this matter into a framework of it being a spat to be mediated away, with good manners or courtesy, is specious. This matter is serious if there is going to be intelligent and informative discussion over a range of subjects, not just a few. So comments might offend/upset before posting. This isn't a gardening column, not even on Sunday. It is about our life and how it is under attack, that is very upsetting. We are concerned, we note and some of us want change, and talk of how, what is the best way. This discussion won't come if people just slide away from any situation, abandoning any ideas they have to express because someone overwhelmingly displaces them with trolling or flamewar behaviour. It is necessary to insist on limits to behaviour, yes, but the important thing is that they enable continued wide and informed discussion.
"Whereupon if someone points that out to me, I will consider it and probably agree and amend my ways. That One Two will not do."
OK, so you've established that you're better than Two One. Since you clearly believe that One Two will not amend their commenting style or beliefs (and, to be fair, the evidence supports you), would you care to analyse the motives of those commenters ‘piling in’ on One Two in yesterday's OM?
If their comments (particularly the more inflammatory ones) wouldn't/couldn't change the antagonist's behaviour/views, then why? Could it be that some of them at least were deriving a certain "pulling the wings off a fly" satisfaction, or can you discern a more noble purpose?
My take on what happened yesterday – standard 'Lord of the Flies'.
I am interested in what One Two says, even though I don’t enjoy it.
You over analyse everything. Drowsy. As I said before – 'that was defensive by TS commenters who value the blog provoked to pronounce against him.'. I think we care about what we are doing more than you do. You apparently have no strong connection to it and won't understand that it isn't some vicarious academic activity to us. So carry on enjoying with superior intellect.
Gordon McLauchlan wrote about us that we are 'The Passionless People' a brief summary of which said, 'in which he called New Zealanders the living-dead, smiling zombies. It was first published in 1976….Thirty-six years later, things are worse in the Revisited version.’
Thanks grey, that's helpful information – will try to shift the quantum of my analysis into your 'goldilocks zone' in future.
It's a given that you ("we") care more about The Standard than I do. Nevertheless, this site is important to me as a source of information (and, although I’m ashamed to admit it, entertainment), and my occasional commenting here is a mechanism to clarify my ideas on topics that I would otherwise give very little thought. This is the only blog of any kind that I follow (should get out more ).
I remain unconvinced the best Standard defense is a 'good' offense, but that seems to be human nature in this environment.
And apologies for giving the impression of having a superior intellect – that might have been less misleading 20 years ago, but is sadly wide of the mark these days.
Last observation – One Two displays much passion for their causes. If only they cared as deeply for The Standard.
yet another warning alarm that will be ignored….at some not too distant point it will be unable to be ignored so we should enjoy the bliss while we can.
i don't think they can do anything else but deny, ignore, and pretend its not that bad.
panic would otherwise follow and panic ain't good for profit.
i think it was Ben Elton who wrote in the Stark that when the Media, the polititians and the 'influencers' admitted that global warming/weather weirding/weather catastrophe is real its because they could not hide the effects of it anymore and while they pretended that it was just the beginning it was already to late to change anything about it. Thus the protagonist went somewhere bush to join some mates and drink beer in good company. I feel that. I feel that very much.
I recall with wry amusement the automatic announcement on the short underground system in Ekaterinburg; at one point is says, in Russian, "This station children's playground, next station thermonuclear weapons plant".
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Powering up and shutting down your ASUS laptop is an essential task for any laptop user. Locating the power button can sometimes be a hassle, especially if you’re new to ASUS laptops. This article will provide a comprehensive guide on where to find the power button on different ASUS laptop ...
Dell laptops are renowned for their reliability, performance, and versatility. Whether you’re a student, a professional, or just someone who needs a reliable computing device, a Dell laptop can meet your needs. However, if you’re new to Dell laptops, you may be wondering how to get started. In this comprehensive ...
Two-thirds of the country think that “New Zealand’s economy is rigged to advantage the rich and powerful”. They also believe that “New Zealand needs a strong leader to take the country back from the rich and powerful”. These are just two of a handful of stunning new survey results released ...
Te Pāti Māori are demanding the New Zealand Government support an international independent investigation into mass graves that have been uncovered at two hospitals on the Gaza strip, following weeks of assault by Israeli troops. Among the 392 bodies that have been recovered, are children and elderly civilians. Many of ...
Our two-tiered system for veterans’ support is out of step with our closest partners, and all parties in Parliament should work together to fix it, Labour veterans’ affairs spokesperson Greg O’Connor said. ...
Stripping two Ministers of their portfolios just six months into the job shows Christopher Luxon’s management style is lacking, Labour Leader Chris Hipkins said. ...
Tonight’s court decision to overturn the summons of the Children’s Minister has enabled the Crown to continue making decisions about Māori without evidence, says Te Pāti Māori spokesperson for Children, Mariameno Kapa-Kingi. “The judicial system has this evening told the nation that this government can do whatever they want when ...
It appears Nicola Willis is about to pull the rug out from under the feet of local communities still dealing with the aftermath of last year’s severe weather, and local councils relying on funding to build back from these disasters. ...
The Government is making short-sighted changes to the Resource Management Act (RMA) that will take away environmental protection in favour of short-term profits, Labour’s environment spokesperson Rachel Brooking said today. ...
Labour welcomes the release of the report into the North Island weather events and looks forward to working with the Government to ensure that New Zealand is as prepared as it can be for the next natural disaster. ...
The Labour Party has called for the New Zealand Government to recognise Palestine, as a material step towards progressing the two-State solution needed to achieve a lasting peace in the region. ...
Some of our country’s most important work, stopping the sexual exploitation of children and violent extremism could go along with staff on the frontline at ports and airports. ...
The Government’s Fast Track Approvals Bill will give projects such as new coal mines a ‘get out of jail free’ card to wreak havoc on the environment, Labour Leader Chris Hipkins said today. ...
The government's decision to reintroduce Three Strikes is a destructive and ineffective piece of law-making that will only exacerbate an inherently biased and racist criminal justice system, said Te Pāti Māori Justice Spokesperson, Tākuta Ferris, today. During the time Three Strikes was in place in Aotearoa, Māori and Pasifika received ...
Cuts to frontline hospital staff are not only a broken election promise, it shows the reckless tax cuts have well and truly hit the frontline of the health system, says Labour Health spokesperson Ayesha Verrall. ...
The Green Party has joined the call for public submissions on the fast-track legislation to be extended after the Ombudsman forced the Government to release the list of organisations invited to apply just hours before submissions close. ...
New Zealand’s good work at reducing climate emissions for three years in a row will be undone by the National government’s lack of ambition and scrapping programmes that were making a difference, Labour Party climate spokesperson Megan Woods said today. ...
More essential jobs could be on the chopping block, this time Ministry of Education staff on the school lunches team are set to find out whether they're in line to lose their jobs. ...
Te Pāti Māori is disgusted at the confirmation that hundreds are set to lose their jobs at Oranga Tamariki, and the disestablishment of the Treaty Response Unit. “This act of absolute carelessness and out of touch decision making is committing tamariki to state abuse.” Said Te Pāti Māori Oranga Tamariki ...
The Government is trying to bring in a law that will allow Ministers to cut corners and kill off native species, Labour environment spokesperson Rachel Brooking said. ...
Cancelling urgently needed new Cook Strait ferries and hiking the cost of public transport for many Kiwis so that National can announce the prospect of another tunnel for Wellington is not making good choices, Labour Transport Spokesperson Tangi Utikere said. ...
A laundry list of additional costs for Tāmaki Makarau Auckland shows the Minister for the city is not delivering for the people who live there, says Labour Auckland Issues spokesperson Shanan Halbert. ...
Te Pāti Māori co-leader Rawiri Waititi, and Mema Paremata mō Tāmaki-Makaurau, Takutai Tarsh Kemp, will travel to the Gold Coast to strengthen ties with Māori in Australia next week (15-21 April). The visit, in the lead-up to the 9th Australian National Kapa haka Festival, will be an opportunity for both ...
The Green Party has today launched a step-by-step guide to help New Zealanders make their voice heard on the Government’s democracy dodging and anti-environment fast track legislation. ...
The National Government’s proposed changes to the Residential Tenancies Act will mean tenants can be turfed from their homes by landlords with little notice, Labour housing spokesperson Kieran McAnulty said. ...
Green Party co-leader Marama Davidson is calling on all parties to support a common-sense change that’s great for the planet and great for consumers after her member’s bill was drawn from the ballot today. ...
A significant milestone has been reached in the fight to strike an anti-Pasifika and unfair law from the country’s books after Teanau Tuiono’s members’ bill passed its first reading. ...
New Zealand has today missed the opportunity to uphold the right to a clean, healthy, and sustainable environment, says James Shaw after his member’s bill was voted down in its first reading. ...
Today’s advice from the Climate Change Commission paints a sobering reality of the challenge we face in combating climate change, especially in light of recent Government policy announcements. ...
Minister for Disability Issues Penny Simmonds appears to have delayed a report back to Cabinet on the progress New Zealand is making against international obligations for disabled New Zealanders. ...
Ambassador Millar, Burgemeester, Vandepitte, Excellencies, military representatives, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen – good morning and welcome to this sacred Anzac Day dawn service. It is an honour to be here on behalf of the Government and people of New Zealand at Buttes New British Cemetery, Polygon Wood – a deeply ...
Distinguished guests - It is an honour to return once again to this site which, as the resting place for so many of our war-dead, has become a sacred place for generations of New Zealanders. Our presence here and at the other special spaces of Gallipoli is made ...
Mai ia tawhiti pamamao, te moana nui a Kiwa, kua tae whakaiti mai matou, ki to koutou papa whenua. No koutou te tapuwae, no matou te tapuwae, kua honoa pumautia. Ko nga toa kua hinga nei, o te Waipounamu, o te Ika a Maui, he okioki tahi me o ...
Paul Goldsmith will take on responsibility for the Media and Communications portfolio, while Louise Upston will pick up the Disability Issues portfolio, Prime Minister Christopher Luxon announced today. “Our Government is relentlessly focused on getting New Zealand back on track. As issues change in prominence, I plan to adjust Ministerial ...
Recreational catch limits will be reduced in areas of Fiordland and the Chatham Islands to help keep those fisheries healthy and sustainable, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones says. The lower recreational daily catch limits for a range of finfish and shellfish species caught in the Fiordland Marine Area and ...
Energy Minister Simeon Brown has welcomed an important milestone in New Zealand’s hydrogen future, with the opening of the country’s first network of hydrogen refuelling stations in Wiri. “I want to congratulate the team at Hiringa Energy and its partners K one W one (K1W1), Mitsui & Co New Zealand ...
The coalition Government is delivering on its commitment to improve resource management laws and give greater certainty to consent applicants, with a Bill to amend the Resource Management Act (RMA) expected to be introduced to Parliament next month. RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop has today outlined the first RMA Amendment ...
Overseas models for regulating the oil and gas sector, including their decommissioning regimes, are being carefully scrutinised as a potential template for New Zealand’s own sector, Resources Minister Shane Jones says. The Coalition Government is focused on rebuilding investor confidence in New Zealand’s energy sector as it looks to strengthen ...
Emergency Management and Recovery Minister Mark Mitchell has today released the Report of the Government Inquiry into the response to the North Island Severe Weather Events. “The report shows that New Zealand’s emergency management system is not fit-for-purpose and there are some significant gaps we need to address,” Mr Mitchell ...
Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith is today travelling to Europe where he’ll update the United Nations Human Rights Council on the Government’s work to restore law and order. “Attending the Universal Periodic Review in Geneva provides us with an opportunity to present New Zealand’s human rights progress, priorities, and challenges, while ...
Associate Agriculture Minister, Mark Patterson, formally reopened the world’s largest wool processing facility today in Awatoto, Napier, following a $50 million rebuild and refurbishment project. “The reopening of this facility will significantly lift the economic opportunities available to New Zealand’s wool sector, which already accounts for 20 per cent of ...
Hon Andrew Bayly, Minister for Small Business and Manufacturing At the Southland Otago Regional Engineering Collective (SOREC) Summit, 18 April, Dunedin Ngā mihi nui, Ko Andrew Bayly aho, Ko Whanganui aho Good Afternoon and thank you for inviting me to open your summit today. I am delighted ...
The Government is delivering on its commitment to bring back the Three Strikes legislation, Associate Justice Minister Nicole McKee announced today. “Our Government is committed to restoring law and order and enforcing appropriate consequences on criminals. We are making it clear that repeat serious violent or sexual offending is not ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters has today announced four new diplomatic appointments for New Zealand’s overseas missions. “Our diplomats have a vital role in maintaining and protecting New Zealand’s interests around the world,” Mr Peters says. “I am pleased to announce the appointment of these senior diplomats from the ...
New Zealand is contributing NZ$7 million to support communities affected by severe food insecurity and other urgent humanitarian needs in Ethiopia and Somalia, Foreign Minister Rt Hon Winston Peters announced today. “Over 21 million people are in need of humanitarian assistance across Ethiopia, with a further 6.9 million people ...
Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage Paul Goldsmith is congratulating Mataaho Collective for winning the Golden Lion for best participant in the main exhibition at the Venice Biennale. "Congratulations to the Mataaho Collective for winning one of the world's most prestigious art prizes at the Venice Biennale. “It is good ...
The Government is reforming financial services to improve access to home loans and other lending, and strengthen customer protections, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly and Housing Minister Chris Bishop announced today. “Our coalition Government is committed to rebuilding the economy and making life simpler by cutting red tape. We are ...
“China remains a strong commercial opportunity for Kiwi exporters as Chinese businesses and consumers continue to value our high-quality safe produce,” Trade and Agriculture Minister Todd McClay says. Mr McClay has returned to New Zealand following visits to Beijing, Harbin and Shanghai where he met ministers, governors and mayors and engaged in trade and agricultural events with the New ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has completed a successful trip to Singapore, Thailand and the Philippines, deepening relationships and capitalising on opportunities. Mr Luxon was accompanied by a business delegation and says the choice of countries represents the priority the New Zealand Government places on South East Asia, and our relationships in ...
New Zealand is demonstrating its commitment to reducing global greenhouse emissions, and supporting clean energy transition in South East Asia, through a contribution of NZ$41 million (US$25 million) in climate finance to the Asian Development Bank (ADB)-led Energy Transition Mechanism (ETM). Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and Climate Change Minister Simon Watts announced ...
The Government is today releasing a list of organisations who received letters about the Fast-track applications process, says RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop. “Recently Ministers and agencies have received a series of OIA requests for a list of organisations to whom I wrote with information on applying to have a ...
Attorney-General Judith Collins today announced the appointment of Wellington Barrister David Jonathan Boldt as a Judge of the High Court, and the Honourable Justice Matthew Palmer as a Judge of the Court of Appeal. Justice Boldt graduated with an LLB from Victoria University of Wellington in 1990, and also holds ...
Education Minister Erica Stanford will lead the New Zealand delegation at the 2024 International Summit on the Teaching Profession (ISTP) held in Singapore. The delegation includes representatives from the Post Primary Teachers’ Association (PPTA) Te Wehengarua and the New Zealand Educational Institute (NZEI) Te Riu Roa. The summit is co-hosted ...
A stopbank upgrade project in Tairawhiti partly funded by the Government has increased flood resilience for around 7000ha of residential and horticultural land so far, Regional Development Minister Shane Jones says. Mr Jones today attended a dawn service in Gisborne to mark the end of the first stage of the ...
Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters will represent the Government at Anzac Day commemorations on the Gallipoli Peninsula next week and engage with senior representatives of the Turkish government in Istanbul. “The Gallipoli campaign is a defining event in our history. It will be a privilege to share the occasion ...
Science, Innovation and Technology and Defence Minister Judith Collins will next week attend the OECD Science and Technology Ministerial conference in Paris and Anzac Day commemorations in Belgium. “Science, innovation and technology have a major role to play in rebuilding our economy and achieving better health, environmental and social outcomes ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon held a bilateral meeting today with the President of the Philippines, Ferdinand Marcos Jr. The Prime Minister was accompanied by MP Paulo Garcia, the first Filipino to be elected to a legislature outside the Philippines. During today’s meeting, Prime Minister Luxon and President Marcos Jr discussed opportunities to ...
The Government has announced that $20 million in funding will be made available to Westport to fund much needed flood protection around the town. This measure will significantly improve the resilience of the community, says Local Government Minister Simeon Brown. “The Westport community has already been allocated almost $3 million ...
The Government is proud to support the first ever Repco Supercars Championship event in Taupō as up to 70,000 motorsport fans attend the Taupō International Motorsport Park this weekend, says Economic Development Minister Melissa Lee. “Anticipation for the ITM Taupō Super400 is huge, with tickets and accommodation selling out weeks ...
Local Government Minister Simeon Brown has announced an increase to the Rates Rebate Scheme, putting money back into the pockets of low-income homeowners. “The coalition Government is committed to bringing down the cost of living for New Zealanders. That includes targeted support for those Kiwis who are doing things tough, such ...
The Coalition Government is investing in a project to boost survival rates of New Zealand mussels and grow the industry, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones has announced. “This project seeks to increase the resilience of our mussels and significantly boost the sector’s productivity,” Mr Jones says. “The project - ...
Benefit figures released today underscore the importance of the Government’s plan to rebuild the economy and have 50,000 fewer people on Jobseeker Support, Social Development and Employment Minister Louise Upston says. “Benefit numbers are still significantly higher than when National was last in government, when there was about 70,000 fewer ...
The Government’s commitment to doubling New Zealand’s renewable energy capacity is backed by new data showing that clean energy has helped the country reach its lowest annual gross emissions since 1999, Climate Change Minister Simon Watts says. New Zealand’s latest Greenhouse Gas Inventory (1990-2022) published today, shows gross emissions fell ...
The Government is bringing the earthquake-prone building review forward, with work to start immediately, and extending the deadline for remediations by four years, Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk says. “Our Government is focused on rebuilding the economy. A key part of our plan is to cut red tape that ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and his Thai counterpart, Prime Minister Srettha Thavisin, have today agreed that New Zealand and the Kingdom of Thailand will upgrade the bilateral relationship to a Strategic Partnership by 2026. “New Zealand and Thailand have a lot to offer each other. We have a strong mutual desire to build ...
RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop and Transport Minister Simeon Brown have today announced the Coalition Government’s intention to extend port coastal permits for a further 20 years, providing port operators with certainty to continue their operations. “The introduction of the Resource Management Act in 1991 required ports to obtain coastal ...
Today’s announcement that inflation is down to 4 per cent is encouraging news for Kiwis, but there is more work to be done - underlining the importance of the Government’s plan to get the economy back on track, acting Finance Minister Chris Bishop says. “Inflation is now at 4 per ...
Refreshed health guidance released today will help parents and schools make informed decisions about whether their child needs to be in school, addressing one of the key issues affecting school attendance, says Associate Education Minister David Seymour. In recent years, consistently across all school terms, short-term illness or medical reasons ...
Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones is streamlining high-level oceans management while maintaining a focus on supporting the sector’s role in the export-led recovery of the economy. “I am working to realise the untapped potential of our fishing and aquaculture sector. To achieve that we need to be smarter with ...
I was initially resistant to the idea often suggested to me that the Government should deliver an arts strategy. The whole point of the arts and creativity is that people should do whatever the hell they want, unbound by the dictates of politicians in Wellington. Peter Jackson, Kiri Te Kanawa, Eleanor ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Adrian Beaumont, Election Analyst (Psephologist) at The Conversation; and Honorary Associate, School of Mathematics and Statistics, The University of Melbourne The Queensland state election will be held in October. A YouGov poll for The Courier Mail, conducted April 9–17 from a sample ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Amin Naeni, PhD candidate at Alfred Deakin Institute for Citizenship and Globalisation, Deakin University There’s been much talk in recent months about what a possible second Donald Trump presidency in the United States could mean for Europe, Russia’s war in Ukraine, the ...
A brief round-up of submissions on the controversial proposed law. This is an excerpt from our weekly environmental newsletter Future Proof. Sign up here. Last week, submissions on the controversial Fast-track Approvals Bill closed just hours after the government released a list of stakeholder organisations who were sent letters advising how they could ...
A poem from Robin Peace’s new collection Detritus of Empire: feather / grass / rock. Cereal giving I see a woman’s hands, see her curious hands break a stalk as she walks through the tall prairie, the savannah, the steppe, wherever it was. See her idly bite the grass that ...
The only published and available best-selling indie book chart in New Zealand is the top 10 sales list recorded every week at Unity Books’ stores in High St, Auckland, and Willis St, Wellington.AUCKLAND1 Hemingway’s Goblet by Dermot Ross (Mary Egan Publishing, $38)A handsomely produced (debossed cover, lovely ...
The Commissioner's decision validates the longstanding efforts of the local community and ensures that Awataha Marae will be managed to serve the needs of the local community, particularly for hosting tangihanga. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Tristan Salles, Associate professor, University of Sydney Examples of Australian landscapes.Unsplash Seventy thousand years ago, the sea level was much lower than today. Australia, along with New Guinea and Tasmania, formed a connected landmass known as Sahul. Around this time – ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Felicity Castagna, Lecturer, Creative Writing, Western Sydney University Day Day Market, ParramattaPhoto: Garry Trinh I live on the edge of Parramatta, Australia’s fastest-growing city, on the kind of old-fashioned suburban street that has 1950s fibros constructed in the post-war housing boom, ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michael Ryan, Teaching Fellow in Economics, University of Waikato GettyImagesfatido/Getty Images There is an ongoing global debate over whether the high inflation seen in the aftermath of the COVID-19 pandemic can be lowered without a recession. New Zealand is not ...
The ‘Wicked Game’ heartthrob is in his late 60s now. That didn’t stop him putting on a lively, goofy and very sparkly show. Apart from ‘Wicked Game’, which graces a sultry playlist of mine simply called 💋, my last sustained Chris Isaak listening session took place when I was about ...
Analysis - Two ministers were stripped of portfolios in a warning to Cabinet, drama broke out at the Waitangi Tribunal, and the gang patch ban bill ran into opposition. ...
Tara Ward makes an impassioned plea for some vital pop culture merch. In April 1999, I became obsessed with a new reality television show called Popstars. Every Tuesday night, five strangers transformed into music royalty before my very eyes as Joe, Keri, Carly, Erika and Megan were chosen to form ...
PNG Post-Courier In the early hours of ANZAC Day, aerial photographs captured an impressive gathering of Australians and Papua New Guineans at Isurava in the Northern (Oro) Province. The solemn dawn service yesterday was held at a site steeped in history, where some of the fiercest battles of World War ...
The PSA is shocked that Oranga Tamariki has used the cost cutting drive to downgrade its commitment to Te Ao Māori and remove many specialist Māori roles. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Ian Kemish, Adjunct Professor, School of Historical and Philosophical Inquiry, The University of Queensland There can be no more powerful symbol of the relationship between Australia and Papua New Guinea than the prime ministers of these neighbouring countries walking together on the ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Sharon Robinson, Distinguished Professor and Deputy Director of ARC Securing Antarctica’s Environmental Future (SAEF), University of Wollongong, University of Wollongong Andrew Netherwood Over the last 25 years, the ozone hole which forming over Antarctica each spring has started to shrink. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Viktoria Kahui, Senior Lecturer in Environmental Economics, University of Otago Getty Images/Amy Toensing Biodiversity is declining at rates unprecedented in human history. This suggests the ways we currently use to manage our natural environment are failing. One emerging concept focuses on ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Timothy Colin Bednall, Associate Professor in Management, Swinburne University of Technology marvent/Shutterstock Finding the best person to fill a position can be tough, from drafting a job ad to producing a shortlist of top interview candidates. Employers typically consider information from ...
Wondering where to host your next BYO? Whether its a small gathering or a massive party, we’ve got some recommendations. I was first introduced to the concept of BYOs at Dunedin’s India Gardens, a legendary but sadly defunct establishment, which purveyed enormous quantities of mango chicken to Aotearoa’s drunkest future ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Julien Cooper, Honorary Lecturer, Department of History and Archaeology, Macquarie University Julien Cooper The hyper-arid desert of Eastern Sudan, the Atbai Desert, seems like an unlikely place to find evidence of ancient cattle herders. But in this dry environment, my new ...
The sector says it’s hopeful her replacement Paul Goldsmith will be able to throw it a lifeline, after six months with a minister deemed missing in action, writes Catherine McGregor in this excerpt from The Bulletin, The Spinoff’s morning news round-up. To receive The Bulletin in full each weekday, sign ...
The government can't just rely on axing public sector jobs and has to do more to cut spending, says the chief economist at a free market think tank. ...
Rock The Vote NZ, known for its advocacy for minor party unity and its role within the Freedoms NZ Coalition during the 2023 General Election, celebrates this merger as a strategic enhancement of its operational strength and outreach. ...
Nearly everyone has experienced the frustration of something you use breaking and being difficult or expensive to fix. Proposed legislation could change that. It’s been raining on and off all Sunday afternoon but people are lining up outside a building in a corner of Gribblehirst Park in Sandringham, Auckland. In ...
What does a forever relationship look like when you don’t believe in marriage? And how do you celebrate it? This essay is part of our Sunday Essay series, made possible thanks to the support of Creative New Zealand.I’m going to do it, right now. I’m going to say ...
The Prime Minister has committed to resuming direct flights to Thailand. But it’s not a promise he will be able to deliver on anytime soon. The post Prime Minister jumps the gun in Thailand appeared first on Newsroom. ...
It’s not that long ago Eliza McCartney was seriously wondering if the Paris Olympics would be her pole vaulting swansong. After years of being hounded by injury after injury, the Rio Olympics bronze medallist was still confident she would compete at her second Olympics in Paris in July, unless something ...
FICTION 1 Take Two by Danielle Hawkins (Allen & Unwin, $36.99) There’s commercial fiction, like this book, and then there’s quality fiction, quality writers, quality literature; the forthcoming Auckland Writers Festival is full of quality, and ReadingRoom has two tickets to give away to the following events: Paul Lynch (Dublin ...
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You can’t have missed the Gallipoli story as the movies, documentaries, essays and books capture what it was like for New Zealand troops in their eight-month campaign on the Peninsula. But this Anzac Day the Auckland War Memorial Museum has published a book that sheds light on a little-known aspect of the ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michelle Grattan, Professorial Fellow, University of Canberra In the free-for-all between the Australian government and Big Tech boss Elon Musk this week, the government had to be on a winner. Most people would have little sympathy with Musk’s vociferous opposition to ...
Asia Pacific Report Chief Mandla Mandela, a member of the National Assembly of South Africa and Nelson Mandela’s grandson, has joined the Freedom Flotilla in istanbul as the ships prepare to sail for Gaza, reports Kia Ora Gaza. Mandela is also the ambassador for the Global Campaign to Return to ...
Pacific Media Watch Journalists who report on environmental issues are encountering growing difficulties in many parts of the world, reports Reporters Without Borders. According to the tally kept by RSF, 200 journalists have been subjected to threats and physical violence, including murder, in the past 10 years because they were ...
Analysis by Dr Bryce Edwards, Democracy Project (https://democracyproject.nz)Political scientist, Dr Bryce Edwards. Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has surprised everyone with his ruthlessness in sacking two of his ministers from their crucial portfolios. Removing ministers for poor performance after only five months in the job just doesn’t normally happen in ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By John Hawkins, Senior Lecturer, Canberra School of Politics, Economics and Society, University of Canberra BagzhanSadvakassov/Upsplash, CC BY-SA Australia’s inflation rate has fallen for the fifth successive quarter, and it’s now less than half of what it was back in late 2022. ...
ACT's Rural Communities and Veterans spokesman Mark Cameron responds to cancellations and protests of ANZAC Day commemorations in Wellington. He says, "These pitiful attempts to detract from ANZAC Day are not at all indicative of the feelings of mainstream ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Meighen McCrae, Associate Professor of Strategic & Defence Studies, Australian National University American and Australian stretcher bearers working together near the front line during the Battle of Hamel in 1918.Australian War Memorial While the AUKUS alliance is new, the Australian-American partnership ...
Pōneke based peace activists staged a silent protest at the ANZAC day service to highlight New Zealand’s complicity in war and genocide, and urge the government to take concrete steps to stop the genocide in Palestine. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Magdalena M.E. Bunbury, Postdoctoral Researcher, James Cook University Burial with a horse at the Rákóczifalva site, Hungary (8th century AD).Sándor Hegedűs, Hungarian National Museum, CC BY How do we understand past societies? For centuries, our main sources of information have been ...
Amanda Thompson doesn’t really do Anzac Day. But what she does do is remember the people she knew who had a lifetime to remember stuff they didn’t really want to, because of a war they didn’t ask for. And she does make Anzac biscuits.First published in 2021.All my ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Kathryn Willis, Postdoctoral Researcher, CSIRO Xavier Boulenger/Shutterstock In the two decades to 2019, global plastic production doubled. By 2040, plastic manufacturing and processing could consume as much as 20% of global oil production and use up 15% of the annual carbon ...
With our collective remembrance, and steadfast belief in our common humanity, we strengthen our hope and resolve to do what we can to foster dialogue and understanding, and to heal divisions in our pursuit of peace. ...
Principal reasons for the opposition is the loss of the public’s democratic right to have “a fair say” and the vital need for a government free from corruption, said Casey Cravens of Dunedin, president of the New Zealand Federation of Freshwater ...
Never mind the scoreboard – in the 2000 Bledisloe Cup decider, the real trans-Tasman battle was won before kickoff.First published in 2016. The dawn of the new millennium was a dark time for the All Blacks. Their final game pre-Y2K was a 22-18 loss to South Africa in the ...
I’m on the wrong side of 40, I never pursued creative work and now my job is killing my soul. Help! Want Hera’s help? Email your problem to helpme@thespinoff.co.nzDear Hera,May I start with the least original conversation opener you’re likely to hear around the motu at the moment, particularly in Wellington: ...
“Never again - No AUKUS” was the message of the wreath laid at this morning’s national ANZAC Day commemorative service at Pukeahu National War Memorial Park this morning by the Stop AUKUS group. ...
Until this month, Auckland swimmer Hazel Ouwehand had never met a qualifying time in an Olympic event for a New Zealand team, even as a junior. Now she’s very likely off to the Paris Olympics after swimming well under the qualifying standard in the 100m butterfly twice – both in ...
While Anzac Day has experienced a resurgence in recent years, our other day of remembrance has slowly faded from view.The Sunday Essay is made possible thanks to the support of Creative New Zealand. Original illustrations by Hope McConnell.First published in 2022.The high school’s head girl and ...
Australian and New Zealand volunteers fought together in the Waikato War, yet still its place in the Anzac tradition is unacknowledged by our defence forces or Returned Services Association.First published in 2018.When I was a boy cub I attended Anzac Day services in the South Auckland suburb of ...
A poem by Wellington writer Tayi Tibble.Hoki Mai She kisses him goodbye with her eyes still wet and alight from their last swim in the Awatere river. At the train station celebration, she leads the Kapa Haka but her voice keeps breaking under and over itself like waves. ...
A poem from Bill Manhire’s 2017 book of verse Some Things to Place in a Coffin.My World War I Poem Inside each trench, the sound of prayer. Inside each prayer, the sound of digging. Image courtesy of Auckland War Memorial Museum. ...
There are three books I have wolfed down in one sitting over the last two years. Colleen Maria Lenihan’s gorgeous and sad debut Kōhine, Noelle McCarthy’s memoir Grand about becoming her mother and then unbecoming her, and now Hine Toa, a staunch yet gentle self-portrait by living legend Ngāhuia te ...
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Just listened to RNZ's coverage of MSD's systemic breach of privacy.
Particularly the disabled woman saying that she couldn't have a relationship unless her partner supported her. This increases risk of abuse in the relationship. She thought that that this might be a breach of her human rights…because every person deserves a loving relationship… good point. Surely a caring government would change this?
Why the fuck dont the just give people the same benefit whether they are single or not .
It would cost fuck all more and save huge amounts of time and lower stress levels .
Because the government always needs an arse to kick.
It's just so sad nobody with the clout to stop this is listening
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ch7lmZmUkg
Wow….we had anti-vax all over Open Mike today and now HAARP (or at least HAARP related) and chemtrails….
The Standard is on a roll!
(No Lprent – I wasn’t suggesting “The Standard” is a thing that posts or whatever your warning about it is supposed to mean)
Obligatory.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIYZvr3ueGw
I see your crazy and raise you….
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsdeAF_Prfo
Ignorance is bliss. Maybe she really believes that there is a pot of gold….
So, I've been reading "The Health of the People" by David Skegg. Basically arguing that public health has been neglected by NZ governments for decades, being sidelined by the MoH focus on personal health services.
An interesting case study is Skegg's recollections of the creation (and quick elimination) of the Public Health Commission in the 1990s. When it started looking at alcohol and tobacco and food, nat ministers started opposing the PHC. Bill Birch telling Skegg "The Dairy Board and the Wine Institute are friends of ours; we work very closely with them." Maurice Williamson yelled expletives at Skegg. Then the nats closed down the PHC before repealing the legislation requiring the PHC to exist.
Tory corruption is next level.
During the 90s when National was in control, the Health system was steadily underfunded. A partial charge was introduced for patients undergoing treatment. As the Hospitals began to seriously fail, talks were underway to get USA private medical providers to take over. The idea was that clearly the Public Health System was broken so we need Private Providers.
It nearly worked then surprise surprise during the recent reign of National, they tried again with serious underfunding. In Britain that is exactly what is happening now. Lucrative areas are now privately run to profit USA providers.
To be fair, if I were a cabinet minister and some quango wanted to fuck with my alcohol and dairy intake, I'd yell expletives at them too.
Seemed to be more the election donation intake that was the cause of the agitation.
Oh, right, of course. For a Tory, cash flow counts for more than… well, everything, really.
There are some full-on descriptions in the book. The PHC CEO gave a speech in one of the regions. The PHC chair was summoned to a minister's office after the minister had been supplied a transcript of the speech by a liquor company in Auckland and the PM had received a phone call from the liquor industry.
Ok, there may be a few inconsistenses in this but I have to get it out of my system.
I am going to link bullying (in bullying free week of all times), mens behaviour and the willing lack of entertaining an idea from left field.
I got part way Open Mike then a good old fashioned TS pile on broke out.
" With pinkies and a full tub of lube, of course "
" What a tit. " " vacuous twerp "
"take a day off fuckwit"
" same stupid fucktard decision "
etc etc.
then someone who should now better, you will remember them from the school ground, chipping in with wry observations, stoking the flames in case they were to die down.
This is NOT (there you go, the beloved bold, underlined and italisized) a desire to revisit the vacination/abortion issues, it is a plea to reflect on what went on.
No matter how you view it there was misogynist behaviour albeit perhaps unintended, there was bullying and there was a total lack of willingness to consider an idea, perhaps challenging but by no means illegitimate.
" there was misogynist behaviour albeit perhaps unintended "
Can you quote this supposed misogynist behaviour?
And if by anti-vaccination you mean “perhaps challenging but by no means illegitimate” then no, it isn’t challenging and is illegitimate.
gsays
Please list your concerns. No-one was getting bullyed. Any appearance of standover tactics were just countering stand-over tactics.
Who do you think was the winner and why?
… there was a total lack of willingness to consider an idea, perhaps challenging but by no means illegitimate.
Do you mean illegitimate as in Alabama? The whole thread was out of skew, so I don't know how you could consider anything of value in it after having received the knockout blow by the loudmouth, of whatever gender.
" No-one was getting bullyed." Sorry mate, cant agree with you there.
The abusive emotive language was from one side of the exchange.
My concerns were outlined above.
As to a 'winner', from my view, a lot of people looked like losers.
The idea that was refused to be considered was of pro choice ONLY applying to womens reproductive rights.
You actually initiated the pile on.
Excuses and an apologist.
Are you ok?
Re read the thread for the mysogyny.
Sabine telling mothers to fuck off, The Al1en's dumb twats, both are: " Further reports from Psychology Today cite that a true misogynist has disdain for women who defy their "rules." from Psychology Today.
"And if by anti-vaccination you mean “perhaps challenging but by no means illegitimate” then no, it isn’t challenging and is illegitimate."
No, it is not what I mean
I don't think Sabine was specifically telling mothers to fuck off and only mothers.
You're really reaching here.
quite clear then, reread the thread.
" ( i had to kick out a women with her daughter covered in pustules – but she is no longer contagious – fuck you women i don't give a shit take your kid home and stay there until she is clear or you produce a doctors certificate that she is clear now) "
I don't think you can call mysogyny on a single post that uses a woman as the example. Does Sabine have a history of this because using a single example wherein a woman is used does not a mysoginist make
Awesome, some head pin dancing.
Sorry, I just don't think that is enough to claim the whole thread is an example of misogynist behaviour.
I would kick out a women with her daughter covered in pustules – but she is no longer contagious – fuck you women i don't give a shit take your kid home and stay there until she is clear or you produce a doctors certificate that she is clear now.
And I'd kick her dumb shit husband out too
" Sorry, I just don't think that is enough to claim the whole thread is an example of misogynist behaviour"
I made no such claim.
Apologise for not what understanding what I wrote if you feel remorseful.
You asked for the mysogynist behaviour, I gave you two examples.
Perhaps in this non bullying week it would be better to ask the husband (who, by the way, doesn’t exisit in the example) to please leave. No need to double down on the violence.
Edit: run out of reply buttons:
“I’m not sure what I should feel remorseful about…?”
You used the word sorry, did you not mean it?
I'm not sure what I should feel remorseful about…?
no Sabine has her own mind, speaks it and some people take offence at that.
Sabine also does have very little use for group think.
And Sabine has told some of the posters here that she does not believe that their poo smells nice and will continue to do so.
And is also a wildly unlikely target for accusations of misogyny or bullying. I always enjoy your comments (in full awareness that the feeling may not be mutual).
Parents who don't vaccinate their kids are, in my opinion, dumb twats, male and female, and both make the same fucktard decision. If it’s disdain, it’s for those pro disease parents.
There's not an ounce of misogyny anywhere in that if it applies equally to both sexes.
I have learnt on TS that to use female genitalia as a term of derision is a no-no.
More pin head dancing to come perhaps?
Use dumb cocks, dicks, tools, love pumps, meat axes or penises, if you like. I won’t be offended.
Careful you don’t fall off that pin head.
Mate you are the only one on the dancefloor.
I've done none of the things you've said I've done. It's all in your imagination.
I'm quite happy with my conduct and foresee no blow back coming my way.
Is this really the hill you want to die on?
Why are you lying gsprays?
Sabine telling mothers to fuck off
That was truly unbelievable.
The rest of it gsays…yes they pile on…like the bully gangs, and none of them actually bother to read or watch fully the information provided to support a point of view. Back in the day it was considered manners to at least read what the other person has provided if one was going to argue against it.
And actually familiarize oneself with the entire discussion before parachuting in with the derision and abuse.
Case in point was lprent with me the other day…https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-14-05-2019/#comment-1616570 when he said…
That is just complete daft bullshit. Lying like that really doesn’t help your argument – to me it associated you with word “nutter”.
I have no idea which disease you’re talking about. However you’re dead wrong about getting lifelong immunity from catching any disease.
..and even when I responded with supporting evidence about the disease which was the topic of the discussion….he offered no apology, or no hint of retraction.
It was at that point that I realised that it was futile expecting to have anything approaching a reasoned and evidenced- based discussion about contentious issues when the Top Man sets such a standard.
Good on you gsays for raising the issue….
Yep gotta say yr exchange with lprent disappointed me too.
I thought it got totally debunked from a cursive look at the Immunisation Advisory Centre.
Reeked of bullying too, the power imbalance thing.
He found my Achilles heel…I hate it when I am accused of lying.
stop right here,
i did not 'tell mothers to fuck right off'
i made it clear that i respected the choice of people to not vaccinate their children.
and then i made it clear that i would tell – in fact told a women (who may or may not be the actual mother of that child) to take the sick child – who was covered in pustules as if she was sick with mesels or chicken pox and take her out of my business and take her home – after said mother / women said "oh surely you won't mind she is not longer contagious'.
this is not quite 'tells mothers fuck of'
However i do reserve the right to tell pepole to leave my business if i believe that their actions might endanger myself, my staff or my customers.
but then maybe you are not interested in polite conversation, maybe you are literally just interested in creating a shit storm for shits n giggles yourself.
so please go find a tree, sit under it and enjoy the full moon.
Sabine. Go back and read what you wrote. Maybe, since English is not your first language, you did not intend to sound as… horrible… as you did.
Yes, you can choose who you have in your shop…it happens all the time…https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/105363920/residents-weigh-in-on-auckland-cakers-refusal-to-create-cake-for-samesex-couple but you'd better be damn sure you have all the facts because, well, discrimination.
English is not my first languae its my third. correct. Now that you got that bit out of you – do you feel better?
Nope, a child covered in pustules might be contagious. I actually put that think up about Mumps to simply show that you or any other non vaccinated person can be contagious without knowing, and that you don't need a lot to get a many people ill in what can be a devastating illness to some.
Your right to be against vaccines and to refuse them does not give you the right to endanger others.
I made it clear that i do not have an issue with people not vaccinating their children, but that i do not approve of them parading their sick children about town.
This women – if you must know, after all you seem curious and seem to read a lot that is neither said nor typed between the lines, came in to my shop – a food business that is heavily regulated – a costly thing too if you care at all, with a child covered in pustules. Poor thing might actually will have to live with facial scars for the rest of her life, but who cares , she has no rights – only her parents have right? The women says we are bored at home so i am taking her 'window shopping', and surely you don't mind she is no longer contagious. Like , wow , Lady stop right here…….
At that point i told that women ' that i do mind indeed, take your child and leave, now. go home. – and she did.
cause Fuck right there lady, you do not get to parade your sick child about town, endangering others who might don't want to get sick or have their babies – that are yet to young to get vaccinated get sick, or the people have chemo therapy (my shop is next to a clinic that offers these type of treatments and i have quite a few that come for a moment of escape and to just breathe).
and that is something i feel strongly about. Maybe because i have had many illnesses throughout my life, maybe because i have had friends that died of aids, have hepatitis C because past lovers did not state that they were ill, maybe just simply because i believe taht your right to choose does not over ride my right to choose.
and i am done with you Rosemary. Literally done. You are looking for a fight and i can't be bothered with you.
As before, please kindly find a tree, sit under it, and enjoy what ever you might enjoy.
Yes, people forget that before vaccinations sick kids were kept away from everyone – I was home with Rubella (German Measles) for 2-3 weeks as a kid some time in the 60s, why? because women in the community were having kids with birth defects if they were exposed, it wasn't an academic exercise, it was mums and kids at Plunket who were dealing with the fallout.
So if you have unvaccinated kids yes you do take on the responsibility of your actions, that includes staying home with the kids for 2-3 weeks when they get ill, like my Mum had to
And since we need a bit of light relief, I will see Martys Cockneys and raise him these Teesiders.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLxLmFhROqY
I agree Gsays
Far too much aggresssive language .It's a real turn off and totally detracts from whatever the writer is trying to express.
That's the bit that is really disappointing.
For everyone that writes on this site there are _____ many folk reading.
I saw a lot of willy waving on OM, from a couple of folk I thought higher of.
'Anti Vaxxer' there you are, get in that box.
My nephew is a paranoid freak railing on FB against vaccinations, still citing the debunked Wakefield autism/mmr theory.
There are a myriad of reasons to not want to vaccinate without going near that discreddited crock.
I was at the GPs yesty, near the end he offered me a 'flu vaccine, I told him I would rather chew tinfoil, he laughed at left it at that.
I was at the GPs yesty, near the end he offered me a 'flu vaccine, I told him I would rather chew tinfoil, he laughed at left it at that.
My man is in the group that has always been eligible for the free flu jab…significant physical disability, older, has undergone treatment for leukaemia etc….yet not once has he ever been offered the flu shot. And it's not that he lives in a cage and doesn't get out much…and even after an emergency hospital visit and a trip to the GP with sinus in the last couple of weeks…he still hasn't been offered the flu jab.
They had to threaten the medical staff at Waikato Hospital to make them have flu shots…so many refused the free ones. Nurses, and doctors….funny that.
Is this what you're referring to with respect to Waikato Hospital staff getting flu vaccinations? In which case it's the kind of misrepresentation a committed anti-vaxer would make.
If it's something else, please link.
No, that will be it.
The threats and bullying were rebuffed by staff….but the bullying tactics can still be seen in the article you linked to.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/news/article.cfm?c_id=6&objectid=11490970
Does this help?
Does this make me an anti vaxer? Pro plaguer?
Yes, that's the kind of link Rosemary should have provided.
Providing this link doesn't make you an anti-vaxer. Some of your other comments suggest you might be leaning that way, though.
gsays: some people speak English as she is fucking spoke by good cunts. Rather than being offended by plain English words, instead be offended by irrationalism – that's a far worse purpose for the English language to be directed to.
Can you do that again but pretend I'm a 6 yr old?
I kinda missed yr point.
Sure – it's upwards of a decade since I've had to phrase things for a six-year-old, but why the hell not:
Grandma doesn't like to hear you say fuck and cunt, so please don't use those words around her. Also your teachers. Otherwise it's all good. More important: some people claim things are true when they aren't, that's much worse than swearing and don't let them get away with it.
Ta, I had the gist of it.
The true bit is a discussion for another day.
As an aside: I took my then 6yr old with me to stay at a mates place in Northland in his bush block. A week later we are at my mums for dinner and the young fella excused himself with " I am going for a piss', a bit taken aback I replied 'A wee son, at Nanas we go for a wee'.
“take a day off fuckwit” is an invitation for a fuckwit to take a day off.
Thats not bullying. If it is I’ll ask all the fuckwits round here to to stop calling that fuckwit a fuckwit
Probably the best tweet this year. Funny, poignant, and did I say funny…
https://twitter.com/susie_meister/status/1104141497476104192
Save me tom cruise..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJ8-eiHLg-M&ab_channel=oucalot
ON a more serious note.
Ever thought you were being played?
Here the wonderful Matt Taibbi with "THE TEN RULES OF HATE"
https://taibbi.substack.com/p/chapter-1-part-ii-the-ten-rules-of
https://taibbi.substack.com/p/the-ten-rules-of-hate-rules-710-the
How do I delete a duplicate statement?
Hmmm, by editing with another statement, there must be another way
Seriously good link Adam, maybe the best I’ve ever got off this site
Taibbi is always worth reading
Yes. Good link and worth thinking about. The first six rules not behind the subscribe wall are:
1. There are only two ideas … binary thinking.
2. The two ideas are in permanent conflict … confrontation as the default
3. Hate the people, not the systems … reduce everything to personalities
4. Everything is someone else's fault … abdication of personal responsibility
5. Nothing is everyone's fault … abdication of collective responsibility
6. Root, don't think … erase the nuances and complexities with primal emotions
We see these game rules being played out here all the time. Personally I don't mind what part of the political spectrum you occupy, what ideas you promote … what really matters is how you argue for them. Because this is the best indicator of how you would implement them if you were ever given the opportunity and power to do so.
Or to put it another way, if you cannot argue for your position respectfully, you cannot be trusted with the power to put it into action.
lprent
Could you give One Two a month's dropout time? This pernicious person is destroying our ability to discuss anything without it coming back to his/her obsession. The freedom of expression of one+ is killing off discussion amongst others. I note so many don't come here now. However If you think it is because of my gloomy approach, then you can let me go for a while. Just ban me. then I can stop trying.
By the way did any thoughts arise as to the item I wrote?
Steady on grey, I have read the links that have been cited by 1 2. There is a truck load more science than has been offered up by the nay-sayers, particularly today on OM.
If anything was being destroyed it was the position of not wanting to vacinate.
Y'all may not agree with 1 2's position, but I am not chipper about euthanasia. I do however gain a bit of insight from reading a counter opinion.
I felt 1 2 showed a lot of restraint today.
Should we kick Rosemary to touch too?
Dunno what thread you were reading, but One Two didn't put up a single link or piece of evidence on OM today that I found on a scroll-through.
However, One Two's first comment looks very finely calculated to start a flame war, which indeed ensued.
Yep, fair call Andre, about links on OM today, I was thinking of yesty's Daily Review.
I am responding to a few different folk.
As to starting a flame war, the language I quoted is far more inflammatory than what I read from 1 2 today.
Joe and John in particular.
All I asked for was evidence and support for the argument. That's it.
Here are your comments from a wee chunk of the discussion….
"It could be applied to problematic users or trolls and allowed them to only make one edit every 30mins until the troll either got bored or stopped trolling.
Would be handy to apply to someone like One Two"
" Starting to get the feeling One Two is as high as he/she can count"
" Wha wha wha. Same shit different day "
"The bigotry and misogyny is all in your head. The insults come because you spout such nonsense before accusing other of bigotry and misogyny.
No one has incited harm to others.
It's all down to your mammoth persecution complex"
Why have you extracted my comments in isolation?
The entire thread was a dumpster fire and this “”The bigotry and misogyny is all in your head. The insults come because you spout such nonsense before accusing other of bigotry and misogyny.” was in response to One Two specifically and repeatedly calling everyone misogynists and bigots without ever providing any reason for those claims.
Yesterday Muttonbird, out of fucking nowhere, abused me in a thread that was over a day old for no reason and continued it while telling me to “be a big boy” and “not run to the mods”. So why me in isolation when it seems an endemic problem site wide?
“No one has incited harm to others.” No one had yet One Two claimed people had – how is this abusive?
“It’s all down to your mammoth persecution complex” he kept shouting at everyone else, calling them bigots when all any one wanted was him to back his fucking claims up. So it’s pretty much a persecution complex.
Gsays – with all due respect, I have never had any reason to not give you any respect, I don’t think you are A) applying you judgement fairly and B) Idenitifying the actual issues in the thread.
Because I caught you in a lie.
Sorry, which lie was this? Really keen to hear this lie I made
Really?
OK once more for those up the back.
Responding to Andre about todays OM and Andre's position of 1 2 starting a flame war, I opined that Joe and you were more inflammatory.
Then you @ 7.1.1.1.1
I quote you, not one of the bunch is looking for evidence or support.
Sorry I am failing to see the lie
What was there on yesterday's Daily Review? Didn't spot anything on a scroll through.
Nor was there anything significant on yesterday's OM. Sure there were a bunch of unsubstantiated assertions around holistic dentistry, but that's only going to harm suckers and their wallets. It's not going to spread harm and disease throughout the community, so it's not going to get serious pushback, just a bit of snark.
What is it that you are seeking to prove / disprove, Andre ?
That the day/date makes any difference to the nature of conduct from the same group of guys ?
I'm really interested in this ' holistic dentistry ' thing
links you asked for:
https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.0020138
https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/135/6/1130
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/protection-from-the-tdap-vaccine-doesnt-last-very-long-201602099202
https://www.nature.com/news/1-500-scientists-lift-the-lid-on-reproducibility-1.19970
https://vaers.hhs.gov/data/datasets.html
http://www.immune.org.nz/hot-topic/measles-overseas-and-new-zealand
A few issues turn into arguments rather than debates, for a number of reasons.
It's usually the topics that have already been debated ad nauseum, and nothing new has been added from the start.
Then they also tend to either directly or indirectly concern really serious, traumatic, and life -or-death matters. When each side considers the other as killing children or invoting draconian dictatorship, passions run high. So that's why people get worked up.
But as for "bullying", I think a lot of what people call bullying is a frank reaction to abuse and cowardly implications that were delivered without expletives.
The sort of individual who constantly accuses other commenters of not thinking very well, not understanding basic issues, or even having a guilty conscience that makes them particularly vocal about sexual assault.
Some people regard the patois of the street as being significantly less insulting than that sort of nice-language condescension and aspersion. Regardless of how intelligent or catastrophically stupid the condescending person happens to be.
Some commenters I genuinely try to respond to and understand, even though we disagree. The type above, though, I will happily call a "piece of shit".
Passions running high is merely excusing weak unnecessarily abusive behaviour.
It was a good old fashioned pile on with a fair swag of willy waving.
Thanks though for not invoking the currently popular moniker anti vaxer or pro plague.
It's not just vax that we're really talking about, is it?
Assange, 9/11, vax, abortion, all of that stuff. Same shit, different day (sometimes the same day).
Now, on any of those topics you'll get someone like Rosemary or Weka or Milt who does actually present interesting points, and on occasion have helped me change some of my perspectives.
But there's also always some… fucking tool who links to bullshit youtube videos, barely anything at all, or random sources they don't read or understand but has a sentence they like the sound of, reiterates the same bullshit myths every time the subject is raised, and show a basic incompetence in the area of the discussion and a failure to understand the terms they throw around with an air of authority (e.g. "free fall speed" when the debris falling into the street [i.e. outside the "footprint", which is another one] is falling more quickly than the building is collapsing).
True it ain't the vax thing that ground my gears.
One persons tool is anothers passionate one.
Getting beyond 'MY' (loving the toolbar up top) view, to a commonly held consensus is what so often holds the left back.
Passion is fine.
Passion mixed with stupidity grinds everything to a halt.
If i hear anymore on anti vaccines I will scream. I am so bloody sick of the endless backbiting about this. Totally ineffective at coming to a conclusion. If people come here and want to destroy the effectiveness of this blog for intelligent political discussion over a wide range of subjects that cast light on problems that will affect our future, then they should be banned.
Soppy kindness isn't practical. Taking the line of 'Oh-well-ism' ie oh well he is making some good points, oh well it is unfair because it is…………..(put your favourite label about unfairness in here – suggested choices are 'racist, misogynist' sexist, ageist, mental wellnessist, disablist etc) doesn't enable discussion about important points.
Kindness on the blog should be between people who actually care about others as well as themselves, and want to achieve real better outcomes about the things they care about. It should not be extended to those who just grandstand and fill up the posts with provocative questions and denials and confrontations – they are just filling in their time, the useless buggers. When we respond we fill up our time, which is limited, and don't get onto the things we ourselves know need to be attended to if things are to improve, or just coped with better.
There is so much to think about, to advocate for, and such little movement from authorities, and so little time. It is such an important and short time before climate change and /or rogue countries, trying to abandon the humane rules of integrity we have painfully built up over centuries, succeed in wiping them away by devious means.
That saying that John Lennon used but which apparently was initiated by an illustrator and writer Allen Saunders in 1957:
"Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans".
Can't argue with much of that Grey, only to add that kindness is most effective when extended to all, especially those who hold an opposing view to yours.
Dunno what thread you were reading, but One Two didn't put up a single link or piece of evidence on OM today that I found on a scroll-through.
I've noticed that One Two isn't providing as many links Andre, but then again they have provided all the necessary links in the past ,if you recall…oh, that's right, you're one of the commenters that flies off the keyboard with derision and abuse without actually reading the entire article.
I think you are scared. You are frightened that if you pay too much mind to the papers and articles One Two and I have provided links to it might just poke a few holes in that safe and comfy wee shell you live in.
Rosemary, when One Two (or anyone for that matter) makes a claim, say "Drinking beer makes you blind" and you ask for a citation for that and they say "I already did last week/yesterday/in another thread" it is more than fair to ask "Can you give me that link again" and not be told "Fuck you, go find it yourself".
That is a crude example but that is pretty much One Two's MO.
One Two hasn’t provided anything in the way of citations for his claims so as long as he makes claims that I believe are untrue I’ll ask for evidence. That goes for anyone that makes a claim that makes me go “that sounds like bullshit, please back it up”. If you have the courage of your convictions then provide evidence for it. Just shouting about how you already have isn’t helpful to your cause
And when you ask for an example and get a couple you dance on a pin, or worse, plead innocence:
" All I asked for was evidence and support for the argument. That's it. "
"It could be applied to problematic users or trolls and allowed them to only make one edit every 30mins until the troll either got bored or stopped trolling.
Would be handy to apply to someone like One Two"
" Starting to get the feeling One Two is as high as he/she can count"
" Wha wha wha. Same shit different day "
"The bigotry and misogyny is all in your head. The insults come because you spout such nonsense before accusing other of bigotry and misogyny.
No one has incited harm to others.
It's all down to your mammoth persecution complex"
I answered this one above… see my comment in response to yours.
Hmmm…some folks are simply not that good at reading people are they? There used to be an excellent wee search facility here on TS…and if one was not quite sure where a person was coming from one could go back and try to find out.
Before launching into print.
It might be that One Two just enjoys a good old fashioned barney and knows what will set you bully boys off.
Or it might be that they are truly committed to the issue and is intensely frustrated at being dismissed.
Rosemary – if someone makes a claim it isn't my job to go search out the answer. The claimant holds full responsibility to back their claims up.
"Go find it yourself/I answered this elsewhere" is not an answer. If you made the claim and someone asks for evidence you pony up with the evidence.
Those are the basic rules of debate, argument, logical discourse, whatever you want to call it.
Rosemary..
The conduct of that same group of guys speaks for itself…
I'm in no way intimidated by such actions online or in real life…but they are clearly intimidated or threatened by the links which I have been been using in response to those who trigger the vaccine threads…
I've openly stated that I would not start the threads off…but once there is comment made , most often with a derogatory and bigoted incitement to aggression of mothers and parents, I will call it out…
In recent times, there are links and comments which I did post, such as that around the medical journals being extensions of the pharmaceutical industry etc…
I am committed to not having additional harm and damage pushed on those who are already discriminated against, which ever side of any discussion they are on…I would equally speak up against such conduct as seen repeatedly on here, if it were aimed at the so called pro side if harm were being incited against that group…
" but they are clearly intimidated or threatened by the links which I have been been using "
Errr, this whole thing was about you NOT providing links. This whole fucking day I have been asking you for citations and you haven't provided one.
I don't answer to your demands…you need to get that through your head selway…
What is it that you believe you're achieving in keeping up the position that you should not have to search for links which I have already posted on multiple occasions…they are on this site…
What do you believe you are achieving in maintaining such a transparently insincere position…
Are you hoping that no-one else will notice how insincere and untenable your tactic is…doesn’t really matter…I saw it the day you arrived at this site and made a comment…
Let's see how many more times you can keep this going…
We can begin on the holistic dental discussion another time..as I can see how interested you are in that subject…
so no links or citations then
Especially when the same commenter gets pissy when they demand "examples and citations" and you dare to only give an example.
No you're using pissy as a way to make an excuse for your own, and the conduct of the other guys here.. and you continue to do it…
I've provided countless links, including the FDA, CDC, WHO , NVIP, VAERS et al….
None of you are interested in the data…and simply continue to demand more evidence…
You even managed to concede when evidence showed that the varicella vaccine leads to shingles…
As a single example…
You lost all credibility with that whole "100% of vaccines failed because my sample size of 1 failed" gibberish.
Nah…
You just can't understand the simple concept, that the link Joe posted to was an advertisement for vaccine failure…
One vaccinated patient cohort – One patient with the mumps who was properly vaccinated
Perfect failure rate from the evidence J90 provided.
That is what is called a clue…but you don't care…that is not what you're about …. you're not interested or genuine..you're looking for an online outlet to heap your issues onto others who you see as a threat…
The same way you don't want to read any of the ample evidence available…
Your actions and comments speak to how disingenuous you are.
Same argument as “One plane crashed, therefor no planes can fly”
A useless vaccine which 100% vaccinated cohorts have still contacted mumps.
Citation needed.
“You’ve been explained to that the mumps vaccine is failing. “
Citation still needed
One patient who was vaccinated properly, but was taking medications that are also immunosuppressive. The immunosuppressive effects of her medication rendered her vaccination status moot.
And yes, the quoted effectiveness of the mumps vaccinations is 88%. But even for those 12% whom the vaccine isn't fully effective, it still reduces the severity of the symptoms. So it's still a massive benefit.
Its why immuno compromised should not be vaccinated…poor decision making..
Why are you still quoting stats which are flawed and faulty..
And you're still describing vaccine failure..
Even if that was true..which you will have a hard time providing actual evidence for…which I already have…and the counter research..
once again One Two – your whole argument is the same as “one cars brakes failed therefore all cars are failures”
your argument is flawed and invalid
But I’d really like to see your research. Can you show me the research that says the mumps vaccine is a 100% failure?
Therefore.. the vaccine failure in the cohort evidence by J90..thanks Joe…
100% failure based on provided evidenced…
Indisputable.
She would have been vaccinated long before developing the condition that required her to take the medication that was immunosuppressive. She didn't get a yellow fever jab for travel because of her immunosuppressed condition. It's there in the thread. Not poor decision making on her and her doctor's part.
Continually saying you have already provided the research and evidence doesn't mean you actually have. It's just an unsubstantiated assertion.
Wild mumps requires lengthy expensive hospital treatment in a substantial number of cases, and even causes some deaths. If you're calling a vaccine that prevents this nasty disease in 88% and greatly reduces the symptoms in the remaining 12% a vaccine failure, then the word failure clearly means something different to you then it does to the general public.
https://www.cdc.gov/mumps/hcp.html
You're seriously sending more links to the CDC (who are the vaccine industry.. you don't seem to know that)…
Yet you denied and refused to make use of the DHHS CDC FDA VAERS reporting system data you were provided…
You refused to use it and provided linked excuses to the CDC no less…it’s the official CDC reporting system…
You begged for law suits..I gave you the DHHS NVICP data…and you dismissed it…
Saying that legal rulings don’t ‘prove stuff’..or some lame ass nonsense…
No, Andre…You're continually showing yourself as disingenuous…with every comment you post on this subject…
It's ok Andre…your extreme bias is necessary to support decisions that you've made…and you act accordingly…
It changes nothing..You're still at name caller level…and the vaccine damage and death is still out there…growing in numbers every day…
As are the number of those who are rejecting the industry orthodoxy…
[Andre made a few points and provided one link. Please stick to addressing the points made and leave out all the innuendo and baggage from previous encounters here on TS as it starts to sound like a broken record. If you don’t want to address the points made by others then please refrain from making references to previous exchanges as this not helpful in any way and only starts flame wars – Incognito]
See my Moderator Edit in your comment @ 10:47 pm. Thanks.
After days and weeks of bigoted comments (not only Andre..not Andre today) and abuse…and that's the moderated comment…
Incognito I see the note…but I do not agree with your comment…I do respect it though..
Andre has done nothing but dismiss all provided links and given farcical excuses for why he can't make use of them. ..for weeks and months…excuses and name calling…
The previous and ample links I’ve provided to Andre…are absolutely relevant…
Background and context is also important…appreciate there is no way you can cover that amount of ground…
I could have hardly written that response to Andre any more nicely than I did..
[I’m not asking for your agreement, only that you respect it. However, you’re again playing the same old record here, which suggests that you either don’t understand my Moderation note or that you simply choose to ignore it thinking that you can get away with it. As I said, address the points and if you can’t or don’t want to, please stay quiet. Context is indeed very important. So, when you address the points, please include an appropriate reference (e.g. a link; that includes links to previous comments, as you have made many here), preferably with a simple explanation as to what is in the link and how that supports your point(s). Referring to ‘bad behaviour’ by another commenter(s) is not addressing the point! – Incognito]
See my Moderator Edit in your comment @ 11:22 pm. Thanks.
I have been addressing the same points raised by Andre, for weeks now…
Which is why the top half of my response to him is factually relevant and context…
Is it ok for the same disproven and refuted comments to keep being asked…should they go unresponded to…there was nothing out of place in the top half…IMO.
If linking to Andres nonsense will help..ok I’ll do that to…just apply the same to others best you can.
You know what…I'll say the bottom half could have been left off…
If you're going to moderate this way…while the bigotry and outright abuse goes unchecked…that would be unfortunate…
As said…mods are scarce these days and lots of ground to cover…but its been feral..
And I'm not referring to any of my comments…
No games. I said I respected your first note.
[Now you are arguing with me and trying to negotiate what you think you can get away with whilst that awful record is still playing. You are disrespecting my Moderation notes and testing my patience. Address the points and only the points when responding to comments. Last word – Incognito]
See my Moderator Edit in your comment @ 11:47 pm. Thanks.
That's part of the issue right there: you regard an opponent admitting being wrong on a few points as some sort of victory for you on all points. Which is probably why you refuse to acknowledge any imperfection, be it as trivial as ironised or plaguerised.
So any ancillary point that could be corrected in any normal conversation ends up being grasped as some sort of proof that you're operating at a "higher level", while you waste time and effort making shit up to defend your catastrophic ignorance.
No. You have once again misinterpreted my comment and intention. The number of times I provide corrections to yourself and others here…you then simply discard it to apply twists on what is happening or said…
I actually appreciate that you did concede…albeit the concession was swiftly followed with more contortions…which I quite likely pointed out …again…
You see, I do not view anyone as an opponent that is not how I see the world…and I certainly do not need what you refer to as victory to believe in my own assertions or perspective…
And you're still making excuses mate…the same way you won't even back off from calling me a rape enabling shit heel.
Keep excusing yourself McFlock…as I have previously said…you're too invested in the decisions that you make and are blinded by completed prejudice to those decisions..
That is fine…but then perhaps you should consider not involving yourself..or at least stop making excuses for your own..or the conduct of those guys…
" The number of times I provide corrections to yourself and others here… "
No you say you do but you don't actually.
Still waiting….shouldn't this be easy for you?
A useless vaccine which 100% vaccinated cohorts have still contacted mumps.
Citation needed.
“You’ve been explained to that the mumps vaccine is failing. “
Citation still needed
Yeah, I won't apologise for calling you a rape enabling shit heel because I still feel that in that argument you were being a rape enabling shit heel.
But on the shingles thing, look at what you did to actually make a fair point:
You made a simple, clear, explicit claim; and
You provided a link that actually supported that claim (and linked to the primary source for that claim). Let's contrast that with:
That's pure invention reagrding my motivations, and is frankly quite condescending and insulting. So, in the interests of responding in kind but with brevity, go fuck yourself.
Yeah that you won't retract was all you needed to repeat…
How can you back down now…you can't you won't...
That illustrates your motives loud and clear through our engagements regardless the topic..
And even with your motivation exposed…you still have said 'para phrase'…
'So what.. flu vax doesn't work…50/50… whatever..ill.keep getting them'…no harm no foul…you said…
That is your bias mate…the motivation flows from bias..
And again as you say…from being a dick…your words…
I'd suggest that you're not particularly healthy of mind or body…and that feeds your motivation…
Either way it is clear to me.
You're unhealthy.
And yet as you pointed out, when I'm demonstrably incorrect, I "concede" (your word).
Given that my impression of you being a rape enabling shit heel was the result of you guessing at the motives of other commenters, and me telling you to go fuck yourself was also the result of you pretending that you know anything about my motivations or prejudices, maybe you should stick to claims you can support rather than diagnosing folks.
You called me that because you didn't like having your motives being questioned…and you decided ‘I’d never been trusted’…which you can’t possibly know…
Nothing I said in that exchange warranted your insult…and yes I still have it…
Calling me what you did should not ever be something which happens…thats how bad an insult of that severity is…
Even if you had unequivocal evidence thats what I am or was doing..which you didn't…that is an abhorrent insult…if you actually knew anything about me…
Which you don't..and you shouldn't assume anything…that's something I say alot here…
No need to diagnose your or anyone of those guys…
The comments leave little room for debate about what sits behind them…
[For how long are you two intending to bring up this single event? Please let it go and stick to the points in comments, not attacking each other. No more warnings – Incognito]
See my Moderator Edit in One Two’s comment @ 11:35 pm. Thanks.
[edit – argh shit, took me ages to find the thread and see where 1-2’s reading comprehension failed yet again, then post it to find a mod note lol. deleted.]
See my Moderator Edit in One Two’s comment @ 11:35 pm. Thanks.
and your flawed data sources have been refuted time and time again in previous threads. Your argument has been demolished so many times yet you stick your head in the sand on the facts. Open your mind
Ed used to do exactly the same thing.
It's you all responding which is the problem. Particularly John Selway who thinks he's the big man on campus.
It was the same with Ed.
Hey! Muttonbird! Dropping nuggets of wisdom again I see.
P.S. I AM a big man on campus.
Hugs..
Overweight and grumpy about it. Makes sense.
6' 3" and skinny but your guess was good though.
Never give up
You never tire of presenting yourself as a massive success. I think there's a word for that.
I’m not sure how my body shape is measure of success. I didn’t do anything to make it. It just is
Can't stand those popular Survivor reality TV shows ("Season 38, Survivor: Edge of Extinction, premiered on February 20, 2019."), and an appeal (by grey @7) to lprent to boot One Two off for a month is too close to Survivor: Lowering the Standard, for my liking.
I have very little time for One Two's views on vaccination, and their 'You're incapable of appreciating the evidence" is irritating (deliberately, IMHO). Were it not for the unnecessarily confrontational 'pile-on'/'pile-up' responses, however, they might comment here maybe two or three times a day. Guilty of letting things get too personal myself – still learning when it's best to back off.
Also, were it not for One Two's crusade (that's a deliberate perjorative on my part – still can't resist having a go even as I pretend to be the voice of reason), Rosemary might not have posted the link to Prof. Benn's remarkable TEDx talk, and personally I'm prepared to sluice through a lot of gravel for the occasional nugget.
Everyone will have different thresholds of tolerance for (various) alternative views, but I'm with gsays – One Two stays. Now where did I put that immunity idol?
Chur..
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5868131/
One of the many research papers arising from the work Benn speaks about in her TED talk.
This paper describes the tragedy that Benn speaks about with barely controlled emotion.
Although lower mortality was expected for DTP-vaccinated children compared with the frail unvaccinated children, DTP vaccination was associated with higher mortality, particularly in girls.
They gave a vaccine thinking to do good and many babies, especially girls, died.
The lead on this paper is not the engaging Prof. Benn, it is this guy ( One Two linked to this yesterday)…who carries so much more gravitas than his choice of shirt might suggest.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jifp1BdmKsw
Almost an hour long.
Data manipulation by regulators and federal agencies.
Misadventures with the Chickenpox Vaccine
Well both Daily Review and OM turned into dumpster fires today.
What will tomorrow bring? Flat Earth perhaps? Moon Landing? The Kennedy Assassination? Dogs and Cats living together in harmony?
The mind boggles
stranger still..perhaps courtesy?
I love you.
Does that work?
Didn't work for Muldoon
https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/tv-radio/70029451/null
Nice.
gsays I thought that you were an older person with commonsense. We don't come here to swap courtesies or curtsies, we come here for robust discussion, and not robust obsessions. One Two is more obsessed than is good for wide discussion, we have reacted, and there appears to be a majority of intelligent commenters who don't find One Two helpful for informed discussion. Are you sure gsays that you really want intelligent discussion or are just here for some time-filling as a new hobby?
I am old enough with enough common sense to know that what you put your attention to feds it. So these "intelligent commenters who don't find One Two helpful for informed discussion." decided conciously to throw derision and abuse (yourself included) at 1 2, thereby feeding the discussion. Rather than scrolling past.
I reckon I have a long enough history here and you have enough nous to get a handle on my motivations.
We can disagree and still be courteous.
One Two might have started the dumpster fires, but they've commented 3 times on Daily Review (whoops, 8 times now – tai ho!), whereas you've made 19 comments.
Granted, today's OM was a different story. One Two made ~34 comments, and garnered ~57 responses in the 'back and forth’ – 23 were yours; the remainder were shared among 10 others.
'Pile ons', even when 'justified', ring alarm bells for me.
Drowsy M Kram
When you see a fire and don't do anything about it, are you complicit in the destruction it causes? One should at least sound an alarm. If the health and vitality of the blog is of interest to you, don't throw labels like 'pile ons' at someone trying to do something about misuse of freedom of speech. One Two is someone who might like to argue about that and that would be a perfect example of how complete freedom gives the option of complete tyranny and anarchy. This comment is good for another 200 comments I think.
After which the consensus would be that I should shut up, finishing with the quote from Macbeth and Shakespeare (the bold arose from the quote in https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/1896522-the-tragedie-of-macbeth
It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.”
How are you not holding the matches?
It was indeed a pile on..again..a venomous insult and abuse filled and potentially harmful pile on …by a group of men ..numbering, however many…against myself…
Including yourself in the group of many…
Where was your restraint…where did you call out the others on their abuse…not once in recent weeks have you taken any such stance…
Joe wanted to misuse FOS…I raised a valid question..you didn't like it..so what..no more excuses for yourself or the others…
Should I not be able to respond to the aggression through my own controlled responses?
…you have continued to seek to have my comments censored in many ways…
Asking I be banned..then even martyring yourself (which has seen folk banned in the past)…
And you're still doubling down making excuses for the part you played in the insults and abuse…
That is hardly the conduct of someone with a moral position…which is exactly what you are seeking to attain through this comment I am responding to…
Your comments have actively targeted my own..just as you are doing once again..today.
oh stfu you bullshit artist. You are one sick puppy fella. Don't try and make people feel guilty to appease your twisted fantasies. The words are all there for people to read and draw their own conclusions. There is no misunderstanding or weasel words in what people think. Move on dim – put some 5g shit up or some more dentistry – that is more your level.
What do you care about marty mars? What really, really grabs you where you live so deeply that you are almost compelled to speak out about it at every opportunity?
You offer the odd comment with an attached link to a recent mainstream media article, briefly agree or disagree, then nothing…I'm left hanging waiting for you to share your thoughts and reasoning.
But you are so, so quick with the insults and derision.
You too have the option to simply ignore those who you disagree with.
Andre has your number and I agree with him. You let yourself down imo and even though I feel that I still wish you well. If you don't know what I write about it's because you are not reading or listening – I'm a broken record but not for you. I'm okay with that.
Andre has your number
He has?
You have unequivocally and aggressively endorsed the assertion of my comment…
Indeed…you have illustrated the root cause.
can't hide from the truth… it is inevitable one two, already written, and you play your allotted part like a marionette, never knowing how or why you play the role assigned. a jerk here and a jerk there – ha so funny to watch the wee limbs move – that's your lesson for today – can you dig it?
"…misuse of freedom of speech."
There will be much discussion over the next wee while about what exactly that statement of your means.
Disagreeing with what a particular person or group purports is not necessarily grounds for silencing or excluding those voices.
One might argue that if a person does not agree with another poster then that person has the ability to simply ignore them.
" When you see a fire and don't do anything about it, are you complicit in the destruction it causes? "
The answer, of course, is a loud and resounding Yes!
Some commenters here are desperate to draw attention to issues they see are of utmost importance to the health of our planet and her inhabitants and will cry Fire!!! in order to get the message out there. Because they just might see an existential threat.
We can all choose to hear, or ignore.
But silence because we disagree?
No.
Yes Rosemary very thoughtful. But silenced can be good when someone wants to dominate the arena. There are a lot of problems facing us, almost overwhelming. It is brutal to have someone come onto a blog that attempts to promote intelligent thoughtful discussion and take it over with their particular obsession which creates such emotional response that it smothers all other voices and concerns raised and it is of less interest to those who have valuable points and information and experience.
The value of the blog is negated. That should not be allowed to happen. We need perhaps a Friends of Blog to protect it from such bad treatment and protect it. And the concerns I have will increase with the ability to set up computer systems inserting contentious questions such as One Two does.
And I am trying to keep up with the machine culture. How do you know you aren't talking to a Gnat robot, an ACT dancer keeping us on our mental toes, a dreaded Russian bot etc. I thought the link below was pretty amazing.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-17/voice-kids-talent-show-russian-bots-result-rigged/11122496
https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/spot-russian-bot-social-media/
Again you’re ignoring that the initial comments are most often posted by other commentators…go take a look at the track record..
As recently as a few days ago ..an genuine attempt at flame war was started by HS…
Where were you gw?
And you're still seeking to censor and remove anothers ability to
You are demanding censorship when you should be demanding those who use aggression, insults and bigoted tactics which are harmful…desist..instead you join in…
As for the Russian bots…
Democrats in America are what you're also looking for…
Democrats fake Russian Bots
I'm not a fox news reader..but it's a mainstream link for you.
greywarshark
'Bullying' is one word I would choose to describe the cumulative effect of the (later) responses to One Two's OM comments yesterday. It's entirely possible that my threshold for the detection of bullying is set too low, and it's also possible that I'm misidentifying bullying behaviour. Nevertheless, kindly consider rereading yesterday's prolific exchanges focussing on word choices only (redact names and ignore vaccine-specific content).
I loathe bullying behaviour (particularly when I’m the perpetrator), and reflexively (and often against my better judgement) want to support an underdog. Yesterday's exchanges had too much of the 'pack closing in for the kill' flavour for my taste.
You may well have been correct to appeal to lprent for the month-long banning of One Two (in order to put out the 'fire'), but that would be the easy way out and rewarding bullying behaviour, IMHO.
I suggest that wasn't bullying to One Two – that was defensive by TS commenters who value the blog provoked to pronounce against him. I think this was done because he has shown himself to be a two-faced, shallow BS artist pretending to discuss, but actually conducting a smart flamewar. And I am not going to say any more about this because if it has to be explained to people commenting here, I am obviously wrong about TS being a blog of continuing value.
By Vangie Beal In online forums and other online discussion spaces, a flame war is a series of flame posts or messages in a thread that are considered derogatory in nature or are completely off-topic. Often these flames are posted for the sole purpose of offending or upsetting other users.
https://www.webopedia.com/TERM/F/flame_war.html
Thanks grey. Agree that one commenter dominating OM is far from ideal, and think that there are other (better?) ways to address that than inciting the individual to reply.
For example, would you be upset and/or tempted to respond if someone posted this description?
Can help agreeing with the writings of Vangie Beal. Always worth thinking about whether comments will offend/upset before posting.
Yes I would be likely to respond if someone applied my description of the offender to myself. Because I would say that evidence shows it isn't true, though occasionally I might err. Whereupon if someone points that out to me, I will consider it and probably agree and amend my ways. That One Two will not do. One should not be stopped from ever criticising another because they would not like the argument to be reversed, and a reasonable criticism is worthy of a reasonable answer.
Your comment about the description of flamewars. How can one draw attention to one if the result is to be accused of starting a flamewar?
'Always worth thinking about whether comments will offend/upset before posting.'
Your attempt at putting this matter into a framework of it being a spat to be mediated away, with good manners or courtesy, is specious. This matter is serious if there is going to be intelligent and informative discussion over a range of subjects, not just a few. So comments might offend/upset before posting. This isn't a gardening column, not even on Sunday. It is about our life and how it is under attack, that is very upsetting. We are concerned, we note and some of us want change, and talk of how, what is the best way. This discussion won't come if people just slide away from any situation, abandoning any ideas they have to express because someone overwhelmingly displaces them with trolling or flamewar behaviour. It is necessary to insist on limits to behaviour, yes, but the important thing is that they enable continued wide and informed discussion.
OK, so you've established that you're better than Two One. Since you clearly believe that One Two will not amend their commenting style or beliefs (and, to be fair, the evidence supports you), would you care to analyse the motives of those commenters ‘piling in’ on One Two in yesterday's OM?
If their comments (particularly the more inflammatory ones) wouldn't/couldn't change the antagonist's behaviour/views, then why? Could it be that some of them at least were deriving a certain "pulling the wings off a fly" satisfaction, or can you discern a more noble purpose?
My take on what happened yesterday – standard 'Lord of the Flies'.
I am interested in what One Two says, even though I don’t enjoy it.
You over analyse everything. Drowsy. As I said before – 'that was defensive by TS commenters who value the blog provoked to pronounce against him.'. I think we care about what we are doing more than you do. You apparently have no strong connection to it and won't understand that it isn't some vicarious academic activity to us. So carry on enjoying with superior intellect.
Gordon McLauchlan wrote about us that we are 'The Passionless People' a brief summary of which said, 'in which he called New Zealanders the living-dead, smiling zombies. It was first published in 1976….Thirty-six years later, things are worse in the Revisited version.’
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/news/article.cfm?c_id=6&objectid=10797098
Another kick in the pants for New Zealand's 'smiling zombies' 2012
Thanks grey, that's helpful information – will try to shift the quantum of my analysis into your 'goldilocks zone' in future.
It's a given that you ("we") care more about The Standard than I do. Nevertheless, this site is important to me as a source of information (and, although I’m ashamed to admit it, entertainment), and my occasional commenting here is a mechanism to clarify my ideas on topics that I would otherwise give very little thought. This is the only blog of any kind that I follow (should get out more ).
I remain unconvinced the best Standard defense is a 'good' offense, but that seems to be human nature in this environment.
And apologies for giving the impression of having a superior intellect – that might have been less misleading 20 years ago, but is sadly wide of the mark these days.
Last observation – One Two displays much passion for their causes. If only they cared as deeply for The Standard.
Bob Hawke just died, if anyone wants to know. Tributes on the usual sites.
yet another warning alarm that will be ignored….at some not too distant point it will be unable to be ignored so we should enjoy the bliss while we can.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/may/16/thinning-of-antarctic-ice-sheets-spreading-inland-rapidly-study
i don't think they can do anything else but deny, ignore, and pretend its not that bad.
panic would otherwise follow and panic ain't good for profit.
i think it was Ben Elton who wrote in the Stark that when the Media, the polititians and the 'influencers' admitted that global warming/weather weirding/weather catastrophe is real its because they could not hide the effects of it anymore and while they pretended that it was just the beginning it was already to late to change anything about it. Thus the protagonist went somewhere bush to join some mates and drink beer in good company. I feel that. I feel that very much.
a lot of what this guy here writes about goes over my head but the gist is the next week some real weird weather is gonna come the US.
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/5/15/1857911/-Atmospheric-Convulsion-Will-Cause-Historic-Disasters-of-Arctic-Melt-U-S-Storms-Next-Week?utm_campaign=trending
In the meant time Siberia is super hot, South of France / Italy / Greece are quite cold for the season, and i am still harvesting Tomatoes and Zuchinis and i live no where near AKL or Northland.
Fancy some beer?
always
Prost then. Nothing much i fear we can do anymore but ride it out and plant trees. Lots and lots of trees.
yes lots of trees…and hopefully some time to go with them
gonna put in four this weekend, two for the birds two for humans.
lets hope they get enough time to floursih and provide food for the critters and humans.
Enriched Uranium levels force school closure next to former weapons plant.
https://twitter.com/jatara_/status/1128126030231810048
I recall with wry amusement the automatic announcement on the short underground system in Ekaterinburg; at one point is says, in Russian, "This station children's playground, next station thermonuclear weapons plant".
Where is that school Poission? I don't want to look through tweets or whatever just to get that info.
ohio
Oho.. Ta.