Daily review 23/11/2015

28 comments on “Daily review 23/11/2015 ”

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1. The Fairy Godmother 1

   23 November 2015 at 9:29 pm

   So glad you are back. I don’t know what I would do without the information and news I get from the standard.
2. mickysavage 2

   23 November 2015 at 9:32 pm

   I am reliably informed that the computer known as the Standard decided to turn itself off. I am sure we can all relate to this …
   • Jenny Kirk 2.1

     23 November 2015 at 9:50 pm

     Yep – thought it might be something like that ! or even weirder ! Good to see you back on form.
3. Muttonbird 3

   23 November 2015 at 10:08 pm

   Parents of a previous tourism fatality are concerned about the lax oversight of the NZ tourism industry.

   It’s as if the current government places ease of business and dollars ahead of tourists’ safety.

   It’s as if the minister of tourism wants to literally put the ‘adventure’ back into adventure tourism. The ‘adventure’ part being that you might die.

   When will the media ask the relevant questions of the tourism minister?
   • mickysavage 3.1

     23 November 2015 at 10:13 pm

     And what are they? (I’ve been offline a bit today …)
     • Muttonbird 3.1.1

       23 November 2015 at 10:31 pm

       The questions I’d ask if I were a journalist are:

       After the Carterton balloon tragedy you had an opportunity to put safety in the tourism industry at the front of new legislation.

       After criticisms from the parents of Badley Coker and Emily Jordan, and the deaths of the Americans on Lake Wanaka this year, do you think you are going a good job as Minister for Tourism?
       • weka 3.1.1.1

         23 November 2015 at 11:07 pm

         What are the Lake Wanaka deaths? I tried googling but nothing came up.
   • weka 3.2

     23 November 2015 at 10:30 pm

     “The ‘adventure’ part being that you might die.”

     That’s actually true if you get in a helicopter that’s flying in the Southern Alps in shit weather (tourism or no). Fixed wing too. Any weather in fact. Lots of people die in helicopter and small plane accidents in NZ.

     We should probably be more up front about that to tourists. I wonder how many google tourism deaths or aircraft deaths in NZ before they come.

     There is risk in tourism as in say mountain climbing. With climbing we accept levels of fatalities because people are doing what they love in environments that are risky. Tourism in NZ is similar and while I agree there are issues around regulation and practice, there are some fatalities that are simply not preventable because of the type of activity and where it is being done.
     • Muttonbird 3.2.1

       23 November 2015 at 10:40 pm

       Weka. That is disgraceful from you.

       In that post you have socialised and generalised the fault of the continued laissez faire attitude by John Key to safety in NZ businesses and especially in tourism.

       Surely it is New Zealand’s responsibility to train foreigners in the endeavour they might be undertaking and surely it is New Zealand’s responsibility to ensure that tourist safety, above revenue, is at the very forefront of legislative considerations.
       • r0b 3.2.1.1

         23 November 2015 at 10:56 pm

         That is disgraceful from you.

         Really? With respect, you seem to be reading quite a bit into weka’s comment that isn’t there.
         • weka 3.2.1.1.1

           23 November 2015 at 11:00 pm

           thanks r0b, I think they did
       • weka 3.2.1.2

         23 November 2015 at 11:05 pm

         “In that post you have socialised and generalised the fault of the continued laissez faire attitude by John Key to safety in NZ businesses and especially in tourism.”

         I don’t think I did. I said that as well as regulation and practice issues, people will always die because of the type of activity and the terrain. If you think I am wrong, please explain how.

         There were problem with tourism deaths before Key. I’m sure he’s being as inept and uncaring about this as he is about many things, and I’m sure that things are getting worse because of the shift in culture that comes from deregulation.

         “Surely it is New Zealand’s responsibility to train foreigners in the endeavour they might be undertaking and surely it is New Zealand’s responsibility to ensure that tourist safety, above revenue, is at the very forefront of legislative considerations.”

         I really think you should be linking or at least naming what you are talkng about. The deaths I am thinking about are the helicopter crash deaths on the Fox this week. How could tourists have been trained for that scenario? I wasn’t aware that a cause of the accident had been established, so how could legislation have prevented those deaths?
       • Draco T Bastard 3.2.1.3

         24 November 2015 at 2:51 am

         In that post you have socialised and generalised the fault of the continued laissez faire attitude by John Key to safety in NZ businesses and especially in tourism.

         Nope. No matter how good the regulations are when you jump off a bridge, jump in a car or plane or a helicopter there’s a very real chance that you will die from doing so. We can make these things safer but we’re not perfect.
     • Rosemary McDonald 3.2.2

       23 November 2015 at 11:01 pm

       @ Weka “I wonder how many google tourism deaths or aircraft deaths in NZ before they come.”

       You may or may not have seen this site…..

       https://newzeelend.wordpress.com/killed-in-nz/

       or….http://e2nz.org/new-zealand-warnings-and-dangers/

       Is Muttonbird is referring to this?….http://i.stuff.co.nz/travel/news/74299941/fox-glacier-crash-killed-tourists-parents-express-anger-sorrow

       We chat with lots of visitors from overseas…they really do make one take a long hard look at how lackadaisical we are about safety.
       • weka 3.2.2.1

         23 November 2015 at 11:15 pm

         Sorry but both those links make my brain hurt for their illogic and general chaotic nature.
         • Rosemary McDonald 3.2.2.1.1

           24 November 2015 at 8:28 am

           Hah! I stumbled across those sites a few years ago while trying to find a path to make my family safe from irresponsible agricultural aviators.

           NZ does have laws, regulations and standards…and guidelines, but when it comes to actual enforcement and prosecution….forget it.

           Overseas visitors, the people Our Leader wants us to welcome with open arms, do not take very kindly to having 1080 dumped on them from a passing helicopter when they are doing one of our Great Walks, neither are they happy about helicopters swooping over the area they are camping and spraying pesticides. They see pesticides being sprayed in public areas and around children.

           They also see polluted waterways, and way too many signs saying not to even paddle in this river…

           When they inquire or complain about these activities they are fobbed off or treated like nutbars.

           They are told that is how ‘we’ do things here….but when they look deeper they realise that there ARE rules and conditions of use…but no bugger is following them and no authority is enforcing them.

           On a more public scale….the adventure tourism industry’s high accident rate is causing more of a furore overseas than it does here. Silly tourists and their families back home assume that we …here we go again… have rules and regulations designed to keep people safe.

           When shit happens, surviving family assume There Will Be A Thorough Investigation and that Someone Will Be Held Responsible and that Heads Will Roll. (Not literally, a prosecution would do)

           Because that’s what they would expect to happen in their own country.

           Someone’s ass would be sued….

           But here…ACC prevents that, and it’s down to our regulators and their investigators to do the work.

           Which doesn’t happen.

           Try googling “parents of overseas workers killed in NZ”….
           • weka 3.2.2.1.1.1

             24 November 2015 at 12:00 pm

             I suppose one of the things about those links is that they’re a dog’s breakfast of issues, confusing tourism with immigrant with resident issues. Their referencing system is appalling, which makes me not trust then.

             Small aircraft safety isn’t just a tourism issue. Spray drift and 1080, bugger the tourists, I’m more concerned about how this affects NZ. The tourists might be offended, I don’t care, but NZers are being exposed to this in ways that tourists never are.

             Tourism itself causes damage, let’s not forget that.

             I think NZ does have some cultural issues around casualness of risk. We’ve also had some shitty post-neoliberal issues around OSH being taken to ridiculous lengths at the same time and private enterprise being allowed to ignore OSH. Which confuses everything.

             I also like that we’re not yet a culture that pretends that death and accident are completely avoidable. People go into the wilderness in part because it’s the wilderness. You are never going to be able to protect everyone, nor prevent stupidity or control nature. So, yet let’s look at regulation and practice, but within that context.
             • Bob …

               24 November 2015 at 1:58 pm

               “I also like that we’re not yet a culture that pretends that death and accident are completely avoidable. People go into the wilderness in part because it’s the wilderness. You are never going to be able to protect everyone, nor prevent stupidity or control nature. So, yet let’s look at regulation and practice, but within that context.”

               +100, well said Weka.
             • Rosemary McDonald …

               24 November 2015 at 4:13 pm

               “Spray drift and 1080, bugger the tourists, I’m more concerned about how this affects NZ. The tourists might be offended, I don’t care, but NZers are being exposed to this in ways that tourists never are.”

               I prefer the term “Agrichemical Trespass”…

               http://www.mfe.govt.nz/publications/hazards/agrichemical-trespass-mac-report-nov02

               You know, that a Bill was to be presented to the House back then that aimed to make agrichemical trespass illegal.

               They wanted to ensure that agrichemicals were confined to the property they were being applied to.

               The Bill was killed. I would LOVE to hear from someone who was in or close to the House at the time who could shed some light on what happened there.

               Tourists come here with the promise of clean and green and rivers of cheap milk and shops full of lovely Kiwi produce at lower prices than what they would pay in Sheffield or Munich.

               What they get is higher prices for NZ grown food, filthy rivers and lakes, a tourism sector that when it is not trying to screw every last dollar out of them is casual about their safety.

               Tourism operators charge them a fortune for the thrill of skydiving or glacier viewing or jetboat cruises…then fail to follow their own safety guidelines. When shit happens and people die…investigations…if they actually happen…often show that red flags were being raised about that operator prior to the incident.

               Helen Kelly has done awesome work on trying to improve workplace safety. Again, the grieving parents of foreign youth who have come here to work have been horrified at our casualness and disgusted by so called investigations and subsequent prosecutions.

               You’d think Key, Minister for Screwing Visitors from Overseas, would be all over this…because those websites, chaotic as they may be, is where the young people go to a) get information about us, and b) have a justifiable bitch session when their visit turns to nightmare.

               We need to clean up our act….for ourselves, and our visitors.

               I really have little sympathy for folk who go waltzing off into the hinterland without checking in at DOC and taking the right gear. If taking risks is what turns them on….
               • weka …

                 24 November 2015 at 6:18 pm

                 Tourists come here with the promise of clean and green and rivers of cheap milk and shops full of lovely Kiwi produce at lower prices than what they would pay in Sheffield or Munich.

                 What they get is higher prices for NZ grown food, filthy rivers and lakes, a tourism sector that when it is not trying to screw every last dollar out of them is casual about their safety.

                 I really don’t give a shit. Industrial tourism in the age of Climate Change is obscene. Unfortunately it’s not as bad as you suggest (in the South Island most of the tourism lakes and rivers are clean) and by far the marjority of tourists love their trips here.
4. Pasupial 4

   23 November 2015 at 10:36 pm

   I’ve been AFK a fair bit lately, so may have missed discussion about this impromptu referendum. It seems a good twist on the usual routine of petitions and marches. NRT seems in favour:

   The obvious criticism is that a DIY effort has no legal effect. But neither does a referendum under the Citizens Initiated Referenda Act 1993. What it can do is send a message, and help focus public anger if the government ignores that message.

   http://norightturn.blogspot.co.nz/2015/11/vote-on-tppa.html#links

   We never had a chance to see what was being negotiated in our name until it was finalised and now the TPPA is approaching ratification without any meaningful public consultation. The government is refusing to do democracy, so we’re doing it for them. We are giving Kiwis the chance to show the government we want a say on the TPPA.

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDZ0Y3q4OLM

   From Monday 23rd till Monday the 30th of November, we’ll be holding our own referendum asking Do you support the ratification (signing) of the the Trans-Pacific Partnership? We will set up a secure online voting platform and will be looking for volunteers to set up polling stations around the country to collect votes during polling week.

   http://www.realchoice.nz/

   And the online voting form:

   http://vote.tppa.nz/tppa_referendum

   Does anyone have any background info on this RealChoice group? They might have a facebook or twitter presence that would have passed me by. There’s no physical polling booth listed for Dunedin as yet:

   http://vote.tppa.nz/voting_booths_locations

   I might be inclined to pitch in for a few hours if some one else was planning to arrange a booth somewhere in the town this week. Even if the government doesn’t pay any attention, there’s a chance that the opposition will.
   • Potato 4.1

     23 November 2015 at 11:44 pm

     You could try this email and see if anyone knows.
     tppaactiondunedin@gmail.com
   • Potato 4.2

     23 November 2015 at 11:48 pm

     Meant to add that RealChoice is the group previously known as ShowUsYaText.

     http://www.showusyatext.org/
   • Bob 4.3

     24 November 2015 at 2:00 pm

     Are you sure that this isn’t just a scam to collect personal data for re-sale?
     Or are they not collecting personal data? In which case it is so open to rigging that it is meaningless.
     • Pasupial 4.3.1

       25 November 2015 at 12:37 pm

       Bob

       They are certainly collecting personal info, if you look at the voting voting form it slots for everything from name and address, to phone & email. That’s why I’m a bit wary of the whole thing. That said, it does seem to be a neat twist on a petition/ citizen’s initiated referendum by cutting out the middle man.

       Thanks to Potato for the links.
5. Ergo Robertina 5

   24 November 2015 at 12:13 am

   Watched Campaign tonight, a fly on the wall about the 1996 Wellington Central election race. It was mentioned on Nine to Noon’s politics slot as it shows Mark Thomas being excruciatingly done over by his own party as it tried out strategic voting in the first MMP election. It’s had a pale echo with Key’s semi-endorsement of Goff (Thomas is a candidate for Auckland mayor).
   It is kind of brilliant, funny, and sad – you’d struggle to get the access now (from all the main campaigns).
   Hard to imagine a candidates’ meeting being held in an occupied student registry now, too (Prebble was the only one who refused to show up).

   http://www.nzonscreen.com/title/campaign
   • mickysavage 5.1

     24 November 2015 at 6:54 am

     I agree it is a must watch and offers a real insight into the stresses of campaigning.

     The last scene when the losing candidates all have a beer together is bitter sweet.
6. Pat 6

   24 November 2015 at 5:28 am

   it is early and there is no open mike for today as yet so i shall post here (move if appropriate)

   It seems to me that where Labour could begin to offer a viable alternative to current dogma is the personal and societal benefits of taxation.

   Yes that word that all modern politicians fear to speak unless announcing there is too much of or they wish to reduce.

   After 30 years of being told that tax is bad and all means to reduce (and privately avoid) should be sought we have created generations who now completely misunderstand its role and believe the dogma with unthinking religious fervor….unfortunately many of these are our political leaders , including finance spokespeople.

   Labour need to begin to reeducate the electorate in the purposes and benefits of taxation (and firstly themselves) so as to remove themselves from the trap of appearing (or being) neolib lite….this is essentially the fundamental point of difference between the so called left and right… the redistribution of the benefits of belonging to a society that creates wealth due to the structural nature of ever increasing inequity due to the market.

   It seems to me that Labour has lost its understanding of this simple truth and is afraid to stand up and speak loudly and unequivocally of its purpose….EVERYTHING ELSE FLOWS FROM THIS.

   If Labour are unable or unwilling to relaunch this platform then I would suggest they have no role as a political force of the left

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