Democracy an expensive waste of time – Key

152 comments on “Democracy an expensive waste of time – Key ”

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1. tc 1

   26 June 2011 at 10:37 pm

   So’s consultation NACT styles…..waste everyones time to do what they damm well please anyway.
2. Dion 2

   26 June 2011 at 10:58 pm

   The most bizarre part of the quote was when he complained that we’ve spent the money only “to end up in the same position”. As if an election is only worthwhile when it results in a change. Hopefully he doesn’t decide that National is polling well enough for him to justify skipping another costly election in November, after all, we’ll probably just end up in the same position.
3. jackal 3

   26 June 2011 at 11:04 pm

   I’m still guessing about what drugs Shonkey’s on… Must be something pretty powerful to be that far removed from reality. The bit about Hone not being victorious was particularly stupid! Horse tranquilizer anyone?
   • the sprout 3.1

     27 June 2011 at 11:45 am

     PCP, no question

     good post btw jackal about the wildly unbalanced coverage of HH
     http://thejackalman.blogspot.com/2011/06/sour-grapes.html
   • the pink postman 3.2

     27 June 2011 at 3:15 pm

     Strange you should wonder what drug Key is on Jackal . Because a few months back I pointed out on the Standard that I thought he is slightly under the influence of alcohol. I dont think he gets pissed but has a drop to much. The signs are there ,plus he is often photographed with a drink in his hand.
     • Colonial Viper 3.2.1

       27 June 2011 at 3:17 pm

       Stresses of holding down an unexpectedly tough job that he doesn’t really want any more.
       • ianupnorth 3.2.1.1

         27 June 2011 at 4:29 pm

         Is there a good bottle shop in Maui?
4. ZeeBop 4

   26 June 2011 at 11:27 pm

   I am very pleased we now have another party to add to diversity of parliament and make John Key’s job harder if he gets the opportunity to build a coalition. Oh, wait, John Key and Mana will never meet. Will Maori Party survive?
5. Colonial Viper 5

   26 June 2011 at 11:57 pm

   Democracy is a waste of time and money, just like having jury trials and access to a lawyer of your choice is a waste of time and money.

   Now, what other parts of our society can we downgrade while we are at it.
6. Frank Macskasy 6

   27 June 2011 at 12:30 am

   I think that addressing John Key as “Dear Leader” is becoming more appropriate each day…

   Considering that we were ORDERED* to stand when Dear Leader entered a Hall where a public Grey Power meeting in Lower Hutt, was held on 24 May, it seems that day is not too far away…

   (* By the Grey Power organisor – forget her name.)
   • the pink postman 6.1

     27 June 2011 at 3:29 pm

     Do tell me where that was Frank M. because our local Grey Power is mainly made up of old blue rinse Tories. One reason I will not join ,plus I dont think Im old enough yet. I went just once with my wife and we came out doubled up with laughter at all those dear old National Ladies moaning about the young and working people . Not for us Im afraid. However we do belong to the Rufus Rogers branch NZLP Hamilton. Full of young at heart and spirit, old wrinklies.!
     • travellerev 6.1.1

       27 June 2011 at 3:49 pm

       I did a presentation on John Key and his conflict of interest because most of his money is still tied up in the banking system for the Rate payers association in Hamilton this Saturday. Talk about old and wrinkly but what a bunch of with it people. Awesome.

       It was my second presentation but they’re already talking about how to get more audience to do another one. Give me old and wrinkly and smart any day.
     • Mac1 6.1.2

       27 June 2011 at 3:50 pm

       Grey Power is for 50+, the pink postman, so you might just sneak in on age. The kaupapa of GP is anti any further privatisation of state assets, and for tax-funded super at 65, a strong public health system, equal opportunity in social services, affordable energy, and a fair justice system. We also take on issues with local authorities and government departments at a cooperative and sub-radar level. A good organisation IMO and worth joining, even if to claim it back from the DONLs.

       This election GP will concentrate on things like cost of living, income inequality and health, and these together with the kaupapa above which should make for some interesting questions of candidates and parties, in the papers and at the hall meetings.

       Yep, there are some people in GP who have problems with other generations, who are grumpy and red-necked etc but nationally 75,000 people belong to GP with a wide range of backgrounds. I’m quite comfortable locally- my GP association has over 6000 members, quite a bit of political clout, there, and certainly they ain’t all grey-rinse grand old dowager Nats and their consorts.
       • travellerev 6.1.2.1

         27 June 2011 at 3:56 pm

         I also did a grey power presentation in Hamilton a while ago and while they were a bit more conservative than the Rate payers group they were still very open minded and curious about what I had to tell them.
         In fact the rate payers group was willing to listen to the 911 issue and the grey power was very open minded about what I had to tell about derivatives and John Key’s banking career.

         Any time you want to organise something a little out of the ordinary for a presentation I’m happy to come over to Hamilton. I do ask for a little koha for gas as I’m on a budget and have to drive in from Raglan but I can guarantee a very informative and entertaining presentation.
       • lprent 6.1.2.2

         27 June 2011 at 3:57 pm

         Yeah. I think think that TPP could maybe just sneak in. After all I do. My parents have been threatening to give me a membership to Grey Power as a birthday/xmas present ever since I turned 50.

         All I can say is that it would be a dreadful thing to do to anyone…
         • Mac1 6.1.2.2.1

           27 June 2011 at 4:40 pm

           I joined Grey Power at 50, willingly. I quite enjoy being around old heads at times. Our local Grey Power association produces a booklet for members full of discounts- one of the reasons we have six thousand members. You can save the membership fee easily in one transaction at 10% discount.

           There are worse things can happen to you than join Grey Power, lprent. You could be put into a Home and then have people like me come and sing to you…
           • lprent 6.1.2.2.1.1

             27 June 2011 at 5:01 pm

             Threatening your sysop? With singing? 🙂 It is a interesting way to get members.
   • Monty 6.2

     27 June 2011 at 9:08 pm

     No Frank you have it wrong Dear Leader is now in New York. we on the right have anointed her Dear Leader back in 1999. You are 12 years too late and very unoriginal.
7. tsmithfield 7

   27 June 2011 at 6:28 am

   “According to our Prime Minister democracy is simply an expensive waste of time…”

   Going from Key’s view on this specific situation to make an assumption about Key’s more general views about democracy breaches the rules of deductive logic. If Key had made a general statement along the lines that all expressions of democracy are an expensive waste of time, you could logically draw the conclusion that he held that view about the Te Tai Tokerau by-election. However, the logic doesn’t flow in the reverse direction. I suggest Philosophy 101 might be a good course for you.

   I agree with Key. This was an expensive waste of time. Democracy could have been delayed for several months without any adverse consequences, for democracy that is.
   • Deadly_NZ 7.1

     27 June 2011 at 7:08 am

     No I think its more about the integrity of the Mana Party. Hone was dumped from the Maori Party he didn’t leave, he then set up Mana and as was his right he went back to the electorate to ask not only for him, but for his new party as well. It nearly blew up in his face (What would keys opinion been then? Democracy has been served.) It would have been a quite different, to the line he used.
     • Hanswurst 7.1.1

       27 June 2011 at 7:20 am

       How did it nearly blow up in his face? The result wasn’t actually very close, you know.
       • Deadly_NZ 7.1.1.1

         27 June 2011 at 7:26 am

         A majority of under a thousand and the fact that 2/3rds of the electorate could not even be bothered to vote, now what does that say?
         • Hanswurst 7.1.1.1.1

           27 June 2011 at 1:05 pm

           Well, the former is directly connected to the latter, which in turn is most likely due to many assuming that the result was a foregone conclusion. I still have no idea why you are suggesting that it nearly blew up in his face. That, as far as I can see, would require his having come close to losing, which definitely wasn’t the case.
       • The Voice of Reason 7.1.1.2

         27 June 2011 at 7:40 am

         First time candidate Kris Faa’foi won Mana with a larger majority than Hone has achieved and at the time we were treated to the MSM and both right and left wing blogs claiming it was somehow a loss for Labour.
          
         Experienced MP Hone Harawira has turned Te Tai Tokerau into a marginal seat and Labour will be looking forward to taking it back in November. Mana, on the other hand, will be easily won by Faafoi with a much bigger majority.
         • The Baron 7.1.1.2.1

           27 June 2011 at 11:37 am

           Delusional. A by-election had the focus of the entire north island labour machine – and they still lost by 7 points.
           Having their resources spread around on general election day will just entrench Hone’s leadership – and rightly so. Labour doesn’t deserve TTT or any Maori sears after the frankly despicable way Helen confiscated land and called them haters and wreckers when they had the gall to ask her why.
           Truth hurts, fanbois.
           • Colonial Viper 7.1.1.2.1.1

             27 June 2011 at 11:42 am

             Will enjoy watching the Maori Party crumble over the next few months as Right Wing spin desperados get louder 🙂

             Hey Baron, did you notice the many votes Labour took from the Maori Party in TTT?

             I am sure it hasn’t escaped the notice of your Money Masters 🙂
             • The Baron …

               27 June 2011 at 12:01 pm

               Yes – I also noted how much Hone carried of the Maori vote. The Maori party weren’t a factor here – Hone was. And the cardboard man Kelvin couldn’t win with all the help in the world.

               You really think that Labour will do better when the general comes around, and resources are not able to be focussed like they were here? If so, I think you’re gonna be disappointed.

               Mind you, the anti-midas Greg P will be busy ruining Jeremy Greenbrook-Held’s chances in Helensville, so maybe you’ll be in with a shot after all.
   • lprent 7.2

     27 June 2011 at 8:08 am

     The point about these things is that if you want a different law, then lobby to get it changed. John Key didn’t and won’t and neither will you. It is just pointless waffle in both cases because of your sheer joy in being pointless wafflers.

     The electoral act is quite specific about when elections can be called. The time that an electorate can be left without a MP is somewhere between the last election, and the next. Explain when you think it should be set and why.

     I think that the framers of the current law got it correct. To date I haven’t heard either you or Key say why you think it is wrong apart from making pointless aspirations aspersions against Hone. Those I suspect are more motivated by politics than any rational reason.

     In my observation, but this is the mark of a National supporter – they are for bugger all. What they stand for is their right to criticize without taking responsibility
     • Lanthanide 7.2.1

       27 June 2011 at 9:37 am

       I’d be in favour of amending the law so that the actual election itself has to take place 6 months out, not simply the resignation/vacancy as the current clause has it. There’d need to be a clarification that the current and normal timeframes for all the steps that take place must be completed without undue haste; eg we can’t have an announcement followed by the election 2 weeks later, just to squish within the 6 month time frame.

       Actually it’d probably make sense to require the entire process to occur 6 months out, not just the election day itself; eg return of the writ, official results and all the rest of it that actually takes place after the day itself.
       • Lanthanide 7.2.1.1

         27 June 2011 at 10:58 am

         Another, perhaps better, rule would be based on the number of sitting days that the elected person would appear in parliament for.

         The 6 month mark is quite arbitrary, but a sitting days rule would sort of speak specifically to the amount of ‘work’ that the member could do.
         • lprent 7.2.1.1.1

           27 June 2011 at 11:27 am

           That (sitting days) might be difficult to figure out. From memory it largely driven by the legislative program and a few rules made by parliament itself (but not set in legislation).

           But also only part of an electorate MP’s job is in parliament. Most back-bench MP’s will be happy to tell you that they do as much work dealing with their electorate as they do in the house. They also do as much in select committees if they are on them.

           Sitting days is a pretty arbitrary measure of the performance of a MP’s job that isn’t particularly related to their actual workloads.
         • Colonial Viper 7.2.1.1.2

           27 June 2011 at 11:36 am

           However, sitting days don’t consider the constituency work that an electorate MP does.

           I just don’t think there’s a great improvement to be had here if what we are interested in is making sure an electorate is properly represented in Wellington at all times, moving dates in a month or out a month.

           ah, beat me to it lprent.
       • lprent 7.2.1.2

         27 June 2011 at 11:34 am

         Effectively at something like 9 months from the last possible day for the election (most of the other times are already in legislation). 

         However that is still arbitrary – what is the rationale for 9 months that does not also apply to 6 months or 12 months.
         • Lanthanide 7.2.1.2.1

           27 June 2011 at 12:30 pm

           Hence attempting the “sitting days” requirement.
     • aoze 7.2.2

       27 June 2011 at 11:10 am

       1prent, you refer to “…making pointless aspirations against Hone…”; this may be here a typo for aspersions, but does seem to fit the Key mould precisely: Pointless aspirations.
       • lprent 7.2.2.1

         27 June 2011 at 11:24 am

         Thanks, you’re right it was the wrong word… (and does seem somewhat appropiate)
   • bbfloyd 7.3

     27 June 2011 at 9:25 am

     ts… You don’t need to restrict yourself to just one specific example. you only have to look at the actions his govt have taken since being in office.. once you stop missing the wood for the trees ‘ it has been obvious since before the election that national are not a democratic party.

     In fact, it has been obvious for decades that national don’t espouse democracy at a fundamental level.
     you only have to look at their history. Since inception, they have been the party who has consistently removed civil, and legal rights from minorities and workers.

     they are the party that is pushing to reintroduce an unrepresentative system of voting for no more reason than wanting to go back to dictatorial governance. a system that allows unfettered power without the need for a true majority of the vote. it doesn’t get more anti democratic than that…

     what else have you got to bleat with? any other meaningless side issues you care to push to the front in order to obfuscate?
     • Peter 7.3.1

       27 June 2011 at 5:31 pm

       Yes time to start promoting the biggest virtue MMP has over FPP. “Every vote counts” under MMP, that’s why it was changed last time. It’s a far better system than white men in suits ruling under a FPP clone.
   • jackal 7.4

     27 June 2011 at 1:19 pm

     tsmithfield

     Going from Key’s view on this specific situation to make an assumption about Key’s more general views about democracy breaches the rules of deductive logic.

     One must judge a person by what they say and do and utilize logic to make a judgement call. The fact that John Key did not utilize similar deductive logic in other cases makes his claims that the Te Tai Tokerau by-election was a waste of money even more incongruous. Is democracy a waste of time? For fascists it must seem so, but for the rest of us it is most worthwhile. The hypocrisy of the Prime Ministers position has been summed up well by Bomber when he wrote:

     Why is it a waste of money when Hone does it, yet it wasn’t a waste of money when Botany by-election was called?

     Voter turnout in the Te Tai Tokerau 2011 by-election was 41.36% and John Key says that is a waste. In Botany it was only 36.44%, yet John didn’t say that was a waste. The difference between the 2008 election and the by-election turn out in Te Tai Tokerau was 22% less voters voting and John Key says that is a waste. Yet the difference between the 2008 Botany election and the by-election was 40% less voters voting and yet John Key didn’t say that was a waste.
   • Bazar 7.5

     27 June 2011 at 1:35 pm

     I don’t really think it’s a waste of time, so much as it’s been a waste of money.
     The time wasted has been from people who actually wanted to waste it, the candidates and voters.

     It’s just the tax payer money that has been squandered for little more than a publicity stunt.

     For those who can’t understand why it’s been such a waste of time, feel free to explain what has changed, and how it couldn’t wait just a couple of months longer.

     Hone is still a PM
     His party wasn’t elected, or even advertised because of his fuck up.
     Representation hasn’t changed.

     An estimated half a million dollars from the tax-payer, and goodness knows how much from the other parties, and for what a decision based on just 13 thousands votes, for half a year?

     Run the maths on that.
     This has been a huge pissing away of money, and what do we have to show for it that couldn’t have waited a few months?

     Finally I’ll add: what a fucking useless post.
     This is the quality of the standard, or at least zetetic’s posts?
     To deliberately misinterpret what the PM says into something else, and then lambast him for it?

     This could have been a post about the value of democracy, and the costs and practicalities of it, and indeed the comments have taken a look at that aspect, but with posts like this, we might as well call this place “The Strawman”, it’d be a lot more accurate description when there are no standards.
     • Colonial Viper 7.5.1

       27 June 2011 at 1:42 pm

       It’s just the tax payer money that has been squandered for little more than a publicity stunt.

       This is the attack line which will be repeated in many different forms now.

       The Right Wingers are running scared that people can now vote for Mana in November and know that their vote will not be wasted.

       Remember: National consider all public spending a waste unless it benefits them and their mates, in which case it is a necessity.

       Like bailing out a $4M uninsured sports field, helping MediaWorks with a cheap loan or buying 34 new well optioned BMW limos.
       • Bazar 7.5.1.1

         27 June 2011 at 2:03 pm

         “This is the attack line which will be repeated in many different forms now.”

         Thank you for rebutting, it’s nice how you proved how the money was well..
         Oh wait, you just glazed over it without actually disputing it, then went into an off-topic rant… colour me unsurprised.

         Half a million dollars, and what did we, as a nation, get, that couldn’t wait 5 months? Nothing (That’s an open question btw).

         “The Right Wingers are running scared that people can now vote for Mana in November and know that their vote will not be wasted.”

         To be honest, having the Mana party exist is something i consider a boon to the right, because people will vote national to keep the mana party from having any power.

         This blog was only just recently going on about how the Act party take over was a boon to the left, because of the racist MP that is Brash.
         But I’m finding it surprising how the most racist of all MP’s gets a party and the right are in a “panic”…
         If it wasn’t for all the racist headaches Hone is likely to create, I expect that national would be having a small celebration.

         “Like bailing out a $4M uninsured sports field, helping MediaWorks with a cheap loan or buying 34 new well optioned BMW limos.”

         Questionable spending yes, but the sports field was insured, as are all properties in new zealand, it’s what the EQC does. Over prioritized, most likely, but i suspect world cup fever had most to do with it.

         Mediaworks didn’t get a loan, they just got a better structured payment package

         “buying 34 new well optioned BMW limo”
         I’d like you to keep in mind, it’s a service agreement that labour created, and national failed to cancel. So yes that’s a failing of our national government.
         • Colonial Viper 7.5.1.1.1

           27 June 2011 at 3:07 pm

           I’d like you to keep in mind, it’s a service agreement that labour created, and national failed to cancel. So yes that’s a failing of our national government.

           I’d like you to keep in mind that National CHOSE to exercise the contracted OPTION of buying the new Beamers 🙂

           Questionable spending yes, but the sports field was insured, as are all properties in new zealand, it’s what the EQC does. Over prioritized, most likely, but i suspect world cup fever had most to do with it.

           Horse shit, the playing field was not ensured and the EQC does not cover uninsured playing fields.

           BTW what is this “Wold Cup Fever” you speak of, some kind of financial disease which leaves countries millions of dollars worse off? 😛

           Mediaworks didn’t get a loan, they just got a better structured payment package

           ??????? I guess your Money Masters would know, since that meant that MediaWorks gets to keep the money that the Government should have collected by now.
           • Bazar 7.5.1.1.1.1

             27 June 2011 at 3:46 pm

             “I’d like you to keep in mind that National CHOSE to exercise the contracted OPTION of buying the new Beamers”

             I think you mean, National had the option of breaking the contract Labour signed, and only paying the exit penalty (which would likely be significant).

             “Horse shit, the playing field was not ensured and the EQC does not cover uninsured playing fields.”
             My god, i’m actually going to record this day, as the day you provided (even corrected me with information)

             Yes i was mistaken, the government did grant $4 million to a private institution (although it’s one that that serves the public).

             “??????? I guess your Money Masters would know, since that meant that MediaWorks gets to keep the money that the Government should have collected by now.”

             Not at all, deferred payment is a deferred payment. They still pay for the right to broadcast on that frequency, and they still pay in advance. They just don’t pay for it in a lump sum, and they pay interest on it as well.

             They certainly aren’t “keeping” the money.
             • Bazar …

               27 June 2011 at 3:52 pm

               Looks like i’m wrong again, no penality to end the contract.
         • Draco T Bastard 7.5.1.1.2

           27 June 2011 at 3:21 pm

           Half a million dollars, and what did we, as a nation, get, that couldn’t wait 5 months? Nothing

           We held up our democracy but I’m not surprised that a RWNJ thinks that maintaining our democracy is too expensive and it should be done away with. They are, after all, Authoritarians.

           Mediaworks didn’t get a loan, they just got a better structured payment package

           They had X amount due on a particular date. They were allowed to pay that amount over an extended period of time with interest. They effectively borrowed the amount due from the government to pay back over time and paid more for the privilege. Sounds like a loan to me.

           I’d like you to keep in mind, it’s a service agreement that labour created, and national failed to cancel.

           It was an agreement which had a 5 or 6 year sunset clause (The deal would null after a certain time) and they didn’t have to purchase the extra cars at all. Blaming Labour for National then choosing to spend money that they didn’t have to spend is pure dishonesty.
     • Draco T Bastard 7.5.2

       27 June 2011 at 3:02 pm

       …and how it couldn’t wait just a couple of months longer.

       Because the law said it couldn’t or are you saying that we shouldn’t follow the law if it’s inconvenient?
       • Bazar 7.5.2.1

         29 June 2011 at 3:21 pm

         Just because it’s written in the law doesn’t mean it’s not a huge waste of money.

         It had to happen because an MP caused a by-election, not just because of the law.
         And it happened because Harawira knew full well that he’d cause a by-election. In fact I believe that was he goal.

         Why did that happen?
         For no good reason other than to jump start the Mana party. And it was done in such a fucked up way that he couldn’t even do that right.

         Harawira isn’t even going to represent his constituents in parliament either, deciding to focus the next few remaining months campaigning for the Mana party.

         So again, and I’ve asked this 3 times, and no one has stepped up to answer it.
         What do we have to show for it that couldn’t have waited a few months?

         I guess I’ll answer it myself: its half a million dollars tax payers’ expense because of 1 MPs political jousting.
         • felix 7.5.2.1.1

           29 June 2011 at 4:23 pm

           “So again, and I’ve asked this 3 times, and no one has stepped up to answer it.
           What do we have to show for it that couldn’t have waited a few months?”

           Actually that’s been answered repeatedly: We had an election. A fairly close one too btw.

           Now you might not think elections are important, but many disagree.

           You’re really just running Key’s line of “nothing changed so what’s the point?” which, if it were a valid argument would mean no more elections in a whole lot of seats much safer than Te Tai Tokerau.

           What you (and Key) are not willing to admit is that your objections are case-specific i.e. you’re not raising any concern about any particular principle that can be applied to any other electoral situation.

           Your stated objections are to do with whether this particular seat changed hands in this particular election, and what are the motivations of this particular candidate, and what this particular victor intends to spend the next few months doing.

           These matters are relevant to the people of Te Tai Tokerau but not to a discussion on electoral policy.

           If you have some other, as yet unstated objection (and I suspect both you and Key do) then you should probably come out with it.
   • ianupnorth 7.6

     27 June 2011 at 4:31 pm

     Had it been Rodney throwing a wobbly and forming a new party in Epsom would Key have been so direct with his criticism – I think not!
   • Reality Bytes 7.7

     27 June 2011 at 7:09 pm

     Personally I think sponsoring a yachting team that fails to find it’s own sponsorship, for the cost 80+ by-elections to be a far worse misappropriation of public money.

     I think purchasing a fleet of overpriced BMW’s during hard times, for some VIP wannabes for the cost of 20+ by-elections to be an inexcusable waste of our hard earned taxes.

     I think a Prime Minister wasting (what should be his valuable time) to comment and opine on this very issue (considering he should have far more pressing things to do) to be a far worse waste of resources and opportunities.

     I think a Prime Minister dicking around on photo-ops and prioritizing electioneering over doing the job he was voted to do, to be a far more terrible waste.

     I think a Minister of Tourism neglecting the critical issues of his portfolio and performing poorly and not vehemently defending the real issues, to be a failure far worse than the costs of democracy. Just a LITTLE bit more effort, a LITTLE less apathy, a little less pissing around electioneering, a bit less trying to bs his way out of the important issues, and he should EASILY be able bring in at least 500k, infact he could even bring in an amount that would dwarf more than we could ever dream of making through wholesale mining.

     Remember it’s not just this particular Public servant’s wage that is being wasted, think of all the cumulative costs of support staff and lost opportunities whilst electioneering.

     I have no problem whatsoever with 500k for a by-election, this is pocket change compared to the amount of crap that money gets pissed away on daily. The value of democracy far exceeds the value of the superficial pointless crap that gets spent on an daily basis. Besides they should expect a few by-elections each year and have some money earmarked for this anyway.

     Whether you support Mana or not, even if nothing has changed at least it gets people thinking about democratic issues. That is priceless, 500k is a bargain for that.
     • marsman 7.7.1

       27 June 2011 at 7:19 pm

       Good on ya RB, very well put!
     • R 7.7.2

       27 June 2011 at 7:39 pm

       ++
8. Deadly_NZ 8

   27 June 2011 at 7:02 am

   When really the only expensive waste of time, is Key himself.
   • Jim Nald 8.1

     27 June 2011 at 3:31 pm

     If the position were reversed
     and TTT had been a National stronghold
     Key would be arguing on the principle of democracy and how it should not be stolen from them.
9. higherstandard 9

   27 June 2011 at 7:54 am

   He should’ve practiced truthspeak and said that politicians are an expensive waste of time.
   • Colonial Viper 9.1

     27 June 2011 at 8:43 am

     Mate you know that a democracy doesn’t work well without a strong public service and good representative politics.

     Oh I guess that’s what Key wants then, thanks for helping me figure that out.
10. ghostwhowalksnz 10

    27 June 2011 at 8:15 am

    The ‘expense’ has been more than paid for by the reduction of Ministers and MPs expenses since the details started to be made public.
    less junkets and taxpayer funded meals ( including Keys trip to burger king paid for on his credit card) has paid for Hones exercise in democracy
11. queenstfarmer 11

    27 June 2011 at 9:05 am

    How was it not a waste of time and money? I haven’t heard any arguments to the contrary.
    • lprent 11.1

      27 June 2011 at 9:40 am

      It is what the law provided. I suggest that you look back at Hansard to find out what the intention was when the law was framed. That would seem more appropriate than querying the people who did not make that law.

      But the short answer is that you could make a argument that any date/time is the wrong one – at some point you have to draw a line in the sand.

      When would you put the line, and how would you justify it? Put that up and then lets pull it to pieces. That seems like a more constructive procedure to follow…
      • queenstfarmer 11.1.1

        27 June 2011 at 10:15 am

        There’s no question it’s what the law provided. I just haven’t seen anything to counter the view (expressed by the PM and others) that it was simply a publicitly stunt, albeit a minor / unsuccesful one at best, that entailed wasted time and money.
        • Colonial Viper 11.1.1.1

          27 June 2011 at 10:42 am

          Yeah tell those citizens in TTT that they should have just lumped it.

          Or when it is clear that a National favoured candidate will get in, like in Botany, then its ok too.

          Perhaps only rich land owners should be allowed to vote, just like the old days.
          • queenstfarmer 11.1.1.1.1

            27 June 2011 at 11:35 am

            Lumped what? Hone was still, and would have remained, their MP. The by-election changed nothing.

            Botany was the result of the incumbent resigning (rightly so) – are you saying Wong shouldn’t have resigned?
            • Colonial Viper 11.1.1.1.1.1

              27 June 2011 at 11:40 am

              The by-election changed nothing.

              Keep repeating Key’s lines. In fact, the by-election has ensured that people up and down the country know that a party vote for Mana is going to count in November.

              are you saying Wong shouldn’t have resigned?

              I’m saying that she should have resigned 3 months before she did, instead of being shielded by John Key.
              • higherstandard …

                27 June 2011 at 11:42 am

                Is Kelvin not standing in November ?
            • Draco T Bastard 11.1.1.1.1.2

              27 June 2011 at 3:27 pm

              Hone was still, and would have remained, their MP.

              But we didn’t actually know that did we? That’s what the voting was for.

              …are you saying Wong shouldn’t have resigned?

              Wong should have been fired and, after an exhaustive investigation, probably jailed.
        • ghostwhowalksnz 11.1.1.2

          27 June 2011 at 2:01 pm

          Are you saying national and Key dont pull publicity stunts ?

          His trip to India would pay for this weekends exercise in democracy
    • bbfloyd 11.2

      27 June 2011 at 9:42 am

      well done. your blue slip is showing… what is a waste of money is john key using dps officers as an honour guard everywhere he goes.(probably the toilet too). what is a waste of money is gifting millions of dollars to buy a plastic canoe for no better reason than patronising the maori vote. what is a waste is having motor homes relocated and not using them, and hammering contractors to rush building temporary homes and then leaving them empty.

      That one blunder alone(temp acc) cost more than the opportunity given for us to exorcise our democratic rights to have representation that is supported by the majority of the electorate.

      whining about the money is no more than exposing yourself to be anti democratic. which, if you are a national supporter makes you a card carrying fascist. your kind of approach to politics shows why it was so important to have an exercise in democracy.. at least now, the issue of representation has been clarified, and the people of the north can have certainty on the choice of, and the philosophies of their chosen advocate.

      What price true democracy? priceless compared to what the alternatives are.
      • queenstfarmer 11.2.1

        27 June 2011 at 10:17 am

        I hardly think that pointing to another (alleged) waste of money justifies another. Wasting money is what all Govts excel at.
        • Colonial Viper 11.2.1.1

          27 June 2011 at 10:38 am

          Yes because spending money on the poor for healthcare and education is money wasted, as is spending on Conservation staff and teh Defence Forces.

          You better look at how much wealth the Private Sector has destroyed buddy, and how much they had to go cap in hand to the Government for corporate hand outs.
        • bbfloyd 11.2.1.2

          27 June 2011 at 7:40 pm

          don’t be foolish. exercising the democratic rights of the people of tai tokerau is far more important, and relevant to good governance than buying support using public money without a shred of consultation.. if you can’t see that then you truly are wasting the space you take up here.

          playing silly word games makes statements more about your own shortcomings rather than any kind of relevant contribution.using words like “alleged”, when it is actually happening(the facts are out in print)makes a mockery of reality. do you need me to assume that you live in a fantasy world where reality is what you want it to be?

          or am i just to assume your intellect is an “alleged” one?
12. Alex 12

    27 June 2011 at 9:22 am

    To be honest, I’m disappointed with the Standard here, the by-election was simply a stunt for Hone to get media attention and it was ridiculous to be held so close to the general election. Us on the left really need to think and ask the question what if that money was spent towards rebuilding Christchurch or not making cuts in Women’s refuge?(Not that this government would do those things anyway but at least it would be less debt on the books for the 6th Labour Government)

    [lprent: Read the policy. Address your plaint to the people who wrote whatever piece you are whining about. Do not address it to the site because it does not think or write posts. As a programmer I view people who think that a dumb machine has a mind as being malfunctioning automata* themselves and act accordingly – I treat them as viruses.

    * plus of course it is a well known troll trait to address the machine – because then no-one can be offended – right? Around here that will get you my personal attention. ]
    • Alex 12.1

      27 June 2011 at 2:37 pm

      OK I’m sorry but Zetetic, is hardly a fantastic alias and in my view the article was addressed to the standard because in my view it did not reflect well on the journalistic integrity of the website. I understand the reasoning behind the policy and I apologize for directing my comment towards ‘the standard’ as a whole, I understand that there are far too many Tory trolls out there and your reasoning for it. However I stand by my comments that the by-election so close to the general election was a publicity stunt for Hone Hariwara and was not a good use of tax payers money.

      I consider the role of government to be focused on helping the least among us not consider a publicity stunt for an controversial divisive MP. I don’t understand why this blogger Zetetic and many other left-wing bloggers are supporting Hone. let’s not forget this is a man who supported the NACT government for 2 years during which he supported the rise in GST, tax cuts for the wealthiest New Zealanders and absurd ideas like national standards.

      [lprent: Read the about. We are not a journalist site and have never claimed to be so. We are a blog site that gives political opinions and whatever else the authors happen to find to be of interest to them. The general rules about posts and comments tend to follow the net’s fuzzy standards rather than those of the journalists rather antique rules. Our rules are in the policy.

      Whatever the meaning is of Zet’s handle is their quirk. I have never bothered to look it up. It is a handle..

      Whatever they choose to write is likely to be contradicted by the next author to write on the topic. In my experience, people who think that the ‘left’ should have a monolithic position are the idiot trolls on the right. If they were involved in the left then they’d know better. For the moment, I’ll mark you down as just another idiot concern troll / astroturfer who is too stupid to realize that particular tactic lost its usefulness years ago. ]
      • Maynard J 12.1.1

        27 June 2011 at 9:37 pm

        Lynn – the only time I have encountered the word Zetetic is in a sci fi novel by Ian M. Banks, one of the Culture novels. The Zetetic Elench are an offshot of the Culture and have a more ‘direct’ approact to other societies. can’t remember the name of the book – Excessions pehaps.

        Whether that’s what this chap’s named after, I’m not sure…
        • Lanthanide 12.1.1.1

          27 June 2011 at 9:43 pm

          zetetic (zəˈtɛtɪk)

          — adj
          proceeding by inquiry; investigating

          [C17: from New Latin, from Greek zētētikos, from zēteō to seek]
          • lprent 12.1.1.1.1

            28 June 2011 at 8:41 am

            Ah. It probably isn’t that appropriate for Zet, who usually seems to exist to stir. But I notice that recent posts by Zet are getting more serious recently.
        • lprent 12.1.1.2

          28 June 2011 at 8:50 am

          It was Excession (good book – I have read it a number of times). That is my only real exposure to use of the word as well. As Lath above points out it means broadly investigating. Which is why Banks used it for that offshoot of the Culture. Their technique was to hunt everywhere for new cultures and then to be assimilated by that culture to see it from the inside out.
      • Alex 12.1.2

        28 June 2011 at 12:49 am

        Wow, glad to see you’re really into civil discourse and rather then personal attacks. I don’t know what justification I can give you that I’m not a troll and hold left-wing values dear to my heart. It is rather hard to hold on high accord my Micky Savage photo on one arm while holding my original labour membership card from when I was 18 up to the sky via the constraints of the internet, I’d be more then happy to oblige.

        Yes, you are also correct that it is not a traditional journalistic source, however it is still blurring the lines of partisan bias and news media regardless. (Not that I’m complaining I enjoy people being honest about their political positions rather then hide behind the facade of neutrality.
        I still stand by my point that I don’t see the Mana party as a source for some sort of left revival and that this was a man that supported this NACT government for two years and many neo-liberal measures that will have serious repercussions for New Zealand in the long-term.
        • Colonial Viper 12.1.2.1

          28 June 2011 at 1:14 am

          I have to love all these people who turn up and say, really I am a Left Winger, I’m a life long Labour voter, you can’t get more proletarian than me, really I am!

          And then to say sweeping things like us in Labour, us in the Left, etc.

          It’s all really too much

          I still stand by my point that I don’t see the Mana party as a source for some sort of left revival and that this was a man that supported this NACT government for two years

          You seem to spend a lot of time nailing Hone while repeating Key’s “it was a waste of money and time” spin lines, while never whispering a word about the fact that Hone divorced himself from the Government while the rest of the Maori Party are still suckling up to the soft warm bosom of the sell NZ out neoliberal “Once Were Farmer” tories.
        • felix 12.1.2.2

          28 June 2011 at 2:53 am

          Thing is, Alex, your comments follow the exact patterns and phrases of literally hundreds of commenters exposed as concern trolls here before you.

          The hilarious bit is that you don’t realise how utterly insulting that is to anyone with a little intelligence who has spent any time on this site.
13. Oleolebiscuitbarrell 13

    27 June 2011 at 9:22 am

    If Hone were really concerned about democracy, surely the time to have sought a new mandate was when he resigned from the MP, not weeks later when (coincidentally) he was seeking to launch his new party.
    • lprent 13.1

      27 June 2011 at 9:36 am

      Ummm. So what you’re implying is that Hone left the Maori Party in a well-organized fashion so that he would have had all of his next moves planned out (and therefore not required weeks to figure out what to do next).

      While I’m sure that some might (the formation of the United party in the 90’s comes to mind). However in Hone’s case I suspect that he might have done everything without that level of planning.

      But got ahead – perhaps you should elucidate on your pet conspiracy theory about how he should have acted if he’d planned the break with the Maori party. I haven’t had a good laugh yet today.
      • Lanthanide 13.1.1

        27 June 2011 at 9:42 am

        “Ummm. So what you’re implying is that Hone left the Maori Party in a well-organized fashion so that he would have had all of his next moves planned out (and therefore not required weeks to figure out what to do next).”

        Clearly he didn’t leave in a well-organised fashion. He should have. I don’t see that that’s an unreasonable thing to expect of our elected representatives.
        • Colonial Viper 13.1.1.1

          27 June 2011 at 9:45 am

          Clearly he didn’t leave in a well-organised fashion. He should have. I don’t see that that’s an unreasonable thing to expect of our elected representatives.

          Breakups are only well organised in fairy tales. And sometimes, not even.
      • Oleolebiscuitbarrell 13.1.2

        27 June 2011 at 9:44 am

        I do not have a conspiracy theory, pet or otherwise.

        I am just saying that, when Hone says that democracy compels him to seek a new mandate, what he actually means is, I can get a good publicity boost at the taxpayers’ expense. We can discount democracy as the basis because, were that the case, he would have sought the mandate when he left the MP.

        He was guided not by a cherished love of the principles of democracy but by doing what was best for Hone.

        I think this is what we expect from politicians. I am just a bit surprised he seems to have gotten away with it to the degree he has.

        But, go ahead, perhaps you should elucidate your pet theory that Hone is the one true protector of democracy. Now, that would be good for a laugh.
        • Colonial Viper 13.1.2.1

          27 June 2011 at 9:47 am

          1) Attack Hone specifically

          2) Try to sound more balanced by generally mentioning politicians in broad terms.

          3) Attack Hone again

          (thought I’d write an S.O.P. for you just so you had it to hand).
          • Oleolebiscuitbarrell 13.1.2.1.1

            27 June 2011 at 9:57 am

            OK. But nothing to say about why Hone did not seek his mandate on leaving the Maori Party, I see.
            • Puddleglum 13.1.2.1.1.1

              27 June 2011 at 10:16 am

              Perhaps by waiting until he was clear about the possibility of forming a party, the by-election actually ended up creating a more substantive consequence than simply trying to get re-elected as an independent.

              So taxpayers’ money (and time) would then be spent contesting a potentially far more substantive issue for our representative democracy and for the coming election.

              That is, it ended up providing more bang for the taxpayers’ buck (through discussion and debate over issues and scenarios of far more import for New Zealand’s future governance than if he had simply stood as an independent).

              Edit: Sorry about the repetitiveness
        • lprent 13.1.2.2

          27 June 2011 at 11:01 am

          Over the last 20 or so years the successful formation of new political parties based around existing electorate MP’s who left their party has pretty much started with a by-election. The only case I can think of where that did not happen was the United party back in the early 90’s. Umm – I can’t remember what Anderton did when he left Labour.

          If he hadn’t done it, then I’d imagine that you’d have been here complaining about him hanging off the public teat without a mandate. In fact so would I. Since he wound up forming a new party, then I’d expect that he would have sought a new mandate. The law about elections told him when that was possible.

          But basically, you still haven’t managed to say how you’d change the law. I guess you just enjoy being a gormless drone without ideas – it does seem to be your forte to have opinions without solutions. Operating off instinct is probably fine for drones, but it hardly makes humans to think that you are worth arguing with…..
          • Oleolebiscuitbarrell 13.1.2.2.1

            27 June 2011 at 11:34 am

            I presume that last diatribe was directed at me.

            But basically, you still haven’t managed to say how you’d change the law.

            No, I haven’t. I also have not shown you my plans for my time machine. Nor have I demonstrated my skill on the ukelele.

            None of which, so far as I am aware, I stated anywhere I was setting out to do.

            I guess you just enjoy being a gormless drone without ideas – it does seem to be your forte to have opinions without solutions.

            My opinion was that Hone did not instigate the by-election out of his love of democracy, which is what is being asserted by his supporters. He did it for political reasons. We know this because, had he done so because of his concern for democracy, he would have gone to the people when he left the MP, not when he started a new party.

            I do have a solution to the problem of politicians behaving like politicians. It is for you not to be sucked in when one says he is instigating a by-election for a love of democracy, when he is plainly not.

            Happy now?
            • lprent 13.1.2.2.1.1

              27 June 2011 at 11:44 am

              I don’t particularly care about Hone’s motivations (or that of his supporters) – they are pretty irrelevant.

              The relevant part of what you said was.. 
              … surely the time to have sought a new mandate was when he resigned from the MP, not weeks later…

              To which I said
              … perhaps you should elucidate on your pet conspiracy theory about how he should have acted if he’d planned the break with the Maori party.

              In fact you haven’t said anything that indicates you have any intelligence or knowledge about electoral law or politics.

              So yeah. I am always happy to see (and expose) people as they really are. You really are a gormless fool with pretensions of being a political critic….
              • Oleolebiscuitbarrell …

                27 June 2011 at 12:07 pm

                Well, there’s no need to be nasty.
                • Colonial Viper …

                  27 June 2011 at 12:14 pm

                  I think Mums on DPB should be forced to work once their youngest child is 14 weeks. But I guess a Government who commissions such a report from a panel that it hand picked cannot be said to be “nasty”.
                  • Oleolebiscuitbarrell …

                    27 June 2011 at 12:21 pm

                    Oh, no, you’re confused, Colonial Viper. lprent didn’t write that report.
                  • ianupnorth …

                    27 June 2011 at 6:50 pm

                    The irony is you have the Ministry of health encouraging mothers to stay home and breast feed their babies till they are one and WINZ demanding they go find a job as soon as the child can be placed in day care!
                • lprent …

                  27 June 2011 at 3:18 pm

                  It is in my nature to call things as I see them. I prefer a unambiguous blunt clarity as a simplifying technique. It is pretty effective at reducing the amount of waffle I wind up enduring.
                  • Oleolebiscuitbarrell …

                    27 June 2011 at 3:46 pm

                    Your efforts in this regard should not go unacknowledged. If you have access to both a printer and a pair of scissors, can I suggest that you use them in combination to make yourself an handsome badge proclaiming your rare inclination to call things as you see them? I will leave it to you, but perhaps something like “bluntness monitor”.

                    I have already made one up warning people that I am a “gormless fool” and have received already many compliments about it.
                • bbfloyd …

                  27 June 2011 at 7:49 pm

                  so stop being a nasty small minded troll yourself o,b,b. do you not grasp the fact that your assumption of the worst motivation for calling a bi-election shows a nasty, bigoted approach to your worldview.

                  whining about getting called on that shows a childish streak that is best left to actual children. not apparent adults with perception issues.
                  • Oleolebiscuitbarrell …

                    28 June 2011 at 8:56 am

                    do you not grasp the fact that your assumption of the worst motivation for calling a bi-election shows a nasty, bigoted approach to your worldview.

                    K. I look forward to you pursuing with equal vigour those on the left who assume the worst motivation for any course of action undertaken by this government. You could start with Travellerev, who seems to think that John Key is setting out to ruin New Zealand for the benefit of a secretive cabal of international moneymen, who have him in their pay.
                    • KJT …

                      29 June 2011 at 4:49 pm

                      The international cabel is true. The song sheet all around the world is eerily similar. More likely Merril Lynch and Goldman Sachs giving the nod that Key will be liberally rewarded when he delivers New Zealand, than some mysterious conspiracy.

                      It is hard to see any motivation for their actions, against the best interests of those they pretend to represent, other than greed or stupidity.

                      Now the Northern European media are singing the same Neo-Liberal script.
                      Obviously the thieves are planning to move on countries where the locals have some wealth left. When they have finished stealing from the Anglo Saxon countries, Greece and Ireland.
    • Colonial Viper 13.2

      27 June 2011 at 9:43 am

      If John Key was really concerned about democracy, he wouldn’t have been undermining activities taken in line with the electoral act.
14. Jum 14

    27 June 2011 at 9:32 am

    The photo of Key is of a ageing man, rapidly ageing as fast as their bills are going through without any consultation with the real government – us.

    I hope he spares a thought or two about what his backers and MPs put Helen Clark through with their lies and their inuendoes. Yet he’s supposedly popular with most of New Zealanders.
    • Colonial Viper 14.1

      27 June 2011 at 11:47 am

      +1

      I hope Key is happy when he reclines on his hard cold bed made of gold, though blue he could have done much for the many in this country, not simply enrich the few.
15. weka 15

    27 June 2011 at 10:13 am

     

    Leaving aside Harawira’s personal reasons for wanting the byelection, I think he’s done the country a favour and served democracy well.

    Given that Mana needs an electorate MP to get anyone into parliament, it makes sense that he established now that they can do that rather than waiting until the GE when there will be people wanting to vote for Mana but worried that their party vote would be wasted.

    Had he waited then we would also have seen a whole lot more of negative dynamics between the MP and Mana. That doesnt’ serve democracy, unless you believe that democracy works best when people throw shit at each other. Personally I think it’s much better for voters to be given clarity and Harawira has done that. He could still lose his seat at the next election, but there is time now for people to see his seat in the context of an overall party.

    It would have been much more of waste of tax dollars had Mana gone to the trouble of standing in multiple electorates and failed to get in because voters weren’t given the clarity of this byelection result.

    The byelection wasn’t about the nation, it was about making clear what *that* electorate wanted to do with the MP/Harawira split. They’ve had the chance to say and now Mana can work towards that at a national level as well as working for the left in general.

    I do have to wonder how the people of TTT are feeling hearing the PM tell them that their votes were a waste of time.
    • Frank Macskasy 15.1

      27 June 2011 at 10:18 am

      I do have to wonder how the people of TTT are feeling hearing the PM tell them that their votes were a waste of time.

      I know I’d be more than a little ‘toey’ if Dear Leader told the world that my vote in a local by-election was a waste of time…
      • Colonial Viper 15.1.1

        27 June 2011 at 10:29 am

        Usual story, National know that they have nothing to lose in TTT. I wouldn’t interpret anything he said from the standpoint of a TTT voter. When Key said what he did he was addressing his Tory constituency in the rest of the country, no one else. Any remarks of his should always be interpreted at least once in that light.

        When he said it was an “expensive waste” he meant that it was an expensive waste of public money which could have gone into Tory pockets via tax cuts; it was also a dog whistle since the “born to rule” know that democracy isn’t a necessity for the society that they envisage.

        When he said it was a “waste of time” he meant that National and his Cabinet had wasted time keeping an eye on Hone, and now had to waste time to keep an eye on Mana.

        When he said that things were still “in the same position” he was reassuring his Tory constituency that the TTT result meant nothing in the larger scheme of things.
        • weka 15.1.1.1

          27 June 2011 at 11:02 am

          I would have thought being PM meant one was taking care of the whole country not just one’s personal constituents.
          • Draco T Bastard 15.1.1.1.1

            27 June 2011 at 3:48 pm

            For a left-leaning PM that would probably be true but not a right-leaning PM. They really are there only for themselves and the rich mates/masters.
16. randal 16

    27 June 2011 at 11:06 am

    go Hone. if there is a price on democracy then it must be paid.
    so how many leaf blowers and imported plastic replica hotrods and chainsaws did the by election cost?
    and keep up the good work on undiagnosed tobacco addictions in low socio economic classes.
    focus on that and the prison numbers will go down.
    whats the price on that deal?
    • Colonial Viper 16.1

      27 June 2011 at 11:11 am

      Maximising literacy and numeracy in children leaving Primary School as well, also maximising the emotional intelligence of those children and ensuring that they are not living in poverty.

      That’ll sort out prison numbers (and numbers of prisons) good.
      • ianupnorth 16.1.1

        27 June 2011 at 4:36 pm

        Where’s the like button -absolutely correct!!
17. the sprout 17

    27 June 2011 at 11:41 am

    National have demonstrated an ongoing disdain and disregard for democratic process throughout their rule. (AK Supercity, CHCH Recovery, gross abuse of the urgency process to pass legislation without discussion, etc etc etc).
    No surprise at all then that Key should consider seeking a legitimate mandate from the people as an expensive waste of time.
    • queenstfarmer 17.1

      27 June 2011 at 12:29 pm

      Name one Govt that hasn’t expressed disdain and disregard for democratic processes. There are plenty from this Govt, the previous Govt, and every one going back decades.

      The problem, as Geoffrey Palmer put it, is the “unbridled power” of our form of Govt. MMP was supposedly going to alleviate some of that, but it hasn’t. My preferred solution: an upper house on a different cycle to the lower house. (Note this is not a call for more MPs. Simply allocate 30-40 to an upper house).
      • KJT 17.1.1

        27 June 2011 at 2:37 pm

        You are still labouring under the delusion that we have democracy.

        http://kjt-kt.blogspot.com/2010/09/representative-democracy.html

        In 1941, the editor Edward Dowling wrote: “The two greatest obstacles to democracy in the United States are, first, the widespread delusion among the poor that we have a democracy, and second, the chronic terror among the rich, lest we get it.

        Politicians should not be able to make law without first being able to convince most people that it is necessary.
        • Colonial Viper 17.1.1.1

          27 June 2011 at 2:58 pm

          You are still labouring under the delusion that we have democracy.

          Since qstf is representing the voice of the Money Masters here, he is actually perpetrating the myth that there is democracy, when he knows otherwise.
        • queenstfarmer 17.1.1.2

          27 June 2011 at 5:14 pm

          +1 for binding referenda.
          • Colonial Viper 17.1.1.2.1

            27 June 2011 at 5:22 pm

            You can’t have binding referenda without a thorough system of civics education, and a comprehensive way of discussing and debating the the issue in focus.

            Democracy is much more than the ballot box.
          • Jum 17.1.1.2.2

            27 June 2011 at 10:52 pm

            queenstfarmer

            (transferred my comment to this thread)

            Binding referenda are far too dangerous in the hands of the New Zealanders who are proven to be greedy and selfish, misogynist and red-necked.

            We can’t handle our drink and we still think women take time off for their periods – rest assured there are many more cretins like Alasdair Thompson galumphing about.

            The Norm Withers referendum question was not actually one question; it was 4. Apparently, the clerk that okays these questions allowed it through just to shut Withers up, the clerk being safe in the knowledge it would be ignored by government. It should not have been allowed as one question and the clerk should have been sacked.

            I remember putting a giant cross on the question paper and shoving it angrily into the voting box, thinking New Zealand hadn’t progressed very far at all in its evolution.

            The S59 Bill was a ridiculous exercise in misleading and manipulating the public, which is incredibly easy it seems given Key, in spite of his lies and betrayals, is still so popular. The question should never have been allowed.

            Binding referenda should never be allowed in this country; the foreign media and corporates that control our communications and everything else, just about, don’t deserve our trust that they would observe objective rules in explaining both sides of the issue to the voter.
18. travellerev 18

    27 June 2011 at 12:09 pm

    I don’t know why anybody is in the least surprised?

    John Key is a Wall street banker. Michael Moore is the US ambassador, member of the Bilderberg group, member of the trilateral group and a hardened globalist. Don Brash with his new toy the Act party is also a finance guy (ex governor of the reserve bank) and had as one of his very personal friends Milton Friedman and members of the new American century.

    This is what David Rockefeller who runs all these groups has to say about Democracy and National sovereignty:

    We are grateful to the Washington Post, The New York Times, Time Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost 40 years. It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subjected to the lights of publicity during those years. But the world is more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national auto-determination practised in past centuries.

    So you see it should not surprise you if and when John Key supported by his other finance guys follows the diktats of their masters.
19. Rodel 19

    27 June 2011 at 1:34 pm

    What did people expect Labour to do in the recent bye election …Roll over, don’t compete and just leave it to Mana?
    National did just that, which is an insult to Nat supporters who may, just may, have wanted to express their political preferences by voting for a person of their choice.

    At least Labour had the fortitude to stand up and be counted.. and if a lot of people want to go out and canvas for what they believe in….I believe its called democracy….
    • bbfloyd 19.1

      27 June 2011 at 7:54 pm

      good point
20. randal 20

    27 June 2011 at 2:09 pm

    so do you think the bill for imported stainless steel fat mufflers would cover the cost of the by-election.
    • Oleolebiscuitbarrell 20.1

      27 June 2011 at 2:22 pm

      Yet I get called a “gormless fool”.
      • Draco T Bastard 20.1.1

        27 June 2011 at 3:54 pm

        That’s because you are a gormless fool. The question that randal asked is actually a very good question as the economy is a zero sum game.
        • Oleolebiscuitbarrell 20.1.1.1

          27 June 2011 at 4:07 pm

          If it is a question, why did it not end with a question mark?
          • Draco T Bastard 20.1.1.1.1

            27 June 2011 at 6:15 pm

            And a grammar naz1

            The structure of the sentence, specifically the do you think shows that it’s a question, ergo, a question mark isn’t really needed.
      • bbfloyd 20.1.2

        27 June 2011 at 7:58 pm

        if the cap fits, wear it….
21. felix 21

    27 June 2011 at 3:21 pm

    Lot of comments supporting Key, but no-one except Lanth has proposed an alternative timeframe for by-elections.

    If you think it was too close to the general then please state your preferred time limit.

    And please say why.
    • Lanthanide 21.1

      27 June 2011 at 4:27 pm

      For the record, I don’t support Key or what he says 😛
      • Oleolebiscuitbarrell 21.1.1

        27 June 2011 at 5:05 pm

        I think it was an expensive waste of time, but one which Hone was entitled to incur. Unlike my friends on the left, I consider it impossible for there to be rules stopping absolutely everything I don’t like.
        • Colonial Viper 21.1.1.1

          27 June 2011 at 5:58 pm

          I consider it impossible for there to be rules stopping absolutely everything I don’t like.

          Stopping the poor, the vulnerable and the disenfranchised by being screwed over by the wealthy, the strong and the influential is all I ask for 🙂
      • Tanz 21.1.2

        27 June 2011 at 9:01 pm

        Ditto.
        The man is there for the cheesy limelight, not for other reasons.
        So, what of the smacking referendum.
        He laughed that one off, didn’t he.
        Lies and more lies.
        But sadly, he’ll probably get another long three years…
22. Treetop 22

    27 June 2011 at 5:40 pm

    Does Key want a coup like in Fiji to replace democracy?
    • Colonial Viper 22.1

      27 June 2011 at 5:56 pm

      Not like Fiji. Many kinds of coup.

      For example, a quiet coup where identified opposition and potential trouble makers are quietly shown the door or starved of funding and good press, and every important institution in the country run by hand picked weak willed and easily swayed loyalists.
      • Treetop 22.1.1

        27 June 2011 at 6:13 pm

        Covert is sneaky indeed.
      • rosy 22.1.2

        27 June 2011 at 6:13 pm

        Or a little bit at a time coup, so as we don’t really notice – like Ecan.
        • Treetop 22.1.2.1

          27 June 2011 at 6:31 pm

          LOL. “Many kinds of coup”
23. RedLogix 23

    27 June 2011 at 6:40 pm

    Just mulling this over, it occurs to me that of all the blog waffle said about this by-election, I can’t think of anyone whose seriously put forward the line that it was all a ‘waste of money’. Consider how many divergent, opposing opinions there are, yet at the bottom of it all, no-one as suggested that the people of TTT should have been denied their right to vote for the MP of their choice.

    No-one that is other than our PM. Peculiar really.
    • Pascal's bookie 23.1

      27 June 2011 at 6:55 pm

      There’s a bunch of Tories in this thread saying red, but yeah. basically their argument seems to come from sour grapes that it didn’t turn out they way they wanted it too. Had Davis won, I suspect we would be seeing a very different line. Democracy would have been served.
    • Lanthanide 23.2

      27 June 2011 at 9:46 pm

      While I don’t think the by-election was a waste of time or worthless, I don’t think it was a good use of public money either and would have preferred if the by-election didn’t happen due to the time limit – he only barely squeaked under the deadline.
24. Oleolebiscuitbarrell 24

    27 June 2011 at 6:53 pm

    No-one that is other than our PM.

    He said that? He said: “the people of TTT should have been denied their right to vote for the MP.”? That’s outrageous.

    Oh. Got a link?
    • RedLogix 24.1

      27 June 2011 at 7:10 pm

      So why did Key say anything at all? Why demean the entire by-election by characterising it as an “expensive waste of time”…

      Because the only way to save wasting on that money would have been NOT to have held the by-election, which was entirely HH’s choice. If he had not then he would have been accused of not having a mandate… now he has the mandate he’s been called out for ‘wasting money’.

      Key’s damming Hone if did or didn’t hold a by-election, which is cheap, sneering and cowardly. By contrast Hone made the brave call to take it to the people, fight a tough by election with barely a Party to back him and no funding to speak of. And got a result.

      Only one of these two enhanced his mana here … and it wasn’t the PM.
      • Oleolebiscuitbarrel 24.1.1

        27 June 2011 at 10:19 pm

        So, no link, then?
        • Colonial Viper 24.1.1.1

          28 June 2011 at 1:27 am

          http://www.thefreedictionary.com/gormless

          Well, you asked.
          • Oleolebiscuitbarrell 24.1.1.1.1

            28 June 2011 at 8:48 am

            Oh, zing! Your really got me there. Clearly, compared to you, with the rapier wit and the keen intellect, any mere mortal is going to seem just a bit gormless.
25. ianmac 25

    27 June 2011 at 7:01 pm

    Now that the PM has declared that a by-election this close to a General Election is wrong in spite of the Law set by Parliament, he will create a new Law. This will be that anyone he doesn’t like can only have a by election if 75% of Parliament agrees to let him. Or no by-election within 6 months, 9months, 12 months, 15 or 18 months? Mmmmm.
26. MrSmith 26

    27 June 2011 at 7:10 pm

    Our Leader decrying the cost of democracy just makes him look weak. Is this the best he could come up with, you have to wonder if his spin machine is on holiday or I would suggest they can’t talk into his ear while flying at 30.000 feet, so he did a George Bush and just winged it, I bet his minders are cringing.
    • Lanthanide 26.1

      27 June 2011 at 9:49 pm

      He’s stirring up the red-night/right-wing base, that’s all.

      All the people who are like “bluddy maaries wasting money!”, you know the type.

      Here’s his latest photo op: http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/5198459/John-Key-and-wife-visit-Taj-Mahal
27. burt 27

    27 June 2011 at 10:55 pm

    Also, apparently out last PM through democracy was an expensive waste of time – do you think we need an upper house to place some real constraint on the fastest law makers in the west?
    • Frank Macskasy 27.1

      27 June 2011 at 11:14 pm

      That would make more sense…
    • Draco T Bastard 27.2

      27 June 2011 at 11:20 pm

      What makes you say that burt?

      And, no, we don’t want an upper house. They’re make things more difficult and expensive without actually achieving anything.
28. John W 28

    5 July 2011 at 1:16 am

    Since Keys globalist mates are having a go at destroying Libya because it has a state bank and oil, we may well be warned.

    The Green Book could work well here.

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