Dumber

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1. Johnr 1

   18 June 2023 at 10:15 am

   The problem as I see it is that the people now making dumb stuff, dumb decisions, dumb managerial calls and dumb governance. Come from the generation who went to uni.

   I don't think you've nailed the problem.
2. ianmac 2

   18 June 2023 at 10:30 am

   "This week notices were sent out to thousands of polytech employees and many many hundred of them will shortly have no job."

   As I understand it, about 500 middle management jobs will go but about 400 new positions will be advertised. Very few teaching jobs will go. (As heard from the top on Thursday.)
   PS: And the Techs have about 10,000 employees and 80% of them are “lift and shift.” ie Same job but in the new structure.
3. Anker 3

   18 June 2023 at 10:35 am

   https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/professor-grant-schofield-a-falling-out-of-love-letter-to-the-university-we-need-to-talk

   I fully expect a number of people on this site won’t read this article by Professor Grant Schofield, an outstanding academic, because it has come from Brash et als website. If so that is a shame, because Professor Schofield’s take on the situation adds an insightful contribution to this discussion about universities.
   • tWiggle 3.1

     18 June 2023 at 6:41 pm

     Scofield writes : 'We are no longer centrists. We have drifted to the political left, way left. And that leftist view, which has many merits and many downfalls, cannot be debated with impunity. We are strong on virtue signaling. We are strong on stating opinions rather than facts. We are weak on confrontation, but strong on behind-the-scene bullying.'

     Scofield appears to be a long time AUT lecturer, and clearly good at his job. He doesn't seem happy with the new VC appointed in 2021, Damon Salesa, Prof of Pacific Studies, who was the first PI Rhodes scholar. Salesa wants to increase Pacific involvement at AUT. Since 2016, AUT has also been picking up funding from Saudi Arabia, leading to an influx of Saudi students and teaching appointments. Regard in his field doesn't mean Salesa is doing a good as a change manager, admittedly, and sounds like he may not be open to staff opinions. Salesa's vision of AUT's future may explain Scofield's 'way left' comment.

     At Massey, VC Jan Thomas, appointed in 2017, led a classic top down reorganisation – one of those ones where staff are 'consulted' 2 weeks before the final plan comes put. It hit all the marks for how to reorganise while traumatising the maximum number of staff. In a knowledge-based organisation, where everything you produce is created in peoples' heads, this approach is incredibly destructive to workplace culture.

     So, maybe key appointments that look good to the University Boards, but which are a disaster for competent, hard-working staff? Political correctness may not necessarily be the primary driver, as Schofield insinuates. Just the wrong people got the job.
   • newsense 3.2

     18 June 2023 at 9:59 pm

     Yes exactly: judge a book by its cover.

     That’s what academia is, the core of information economics- some things have poor credibility. Much like a few names helpfully giving Labour advice over Michael Wood who certainly had no love for red rosettes, those names have nailed their colours to far right politics and how white blokes are being hard done by.

     If he had something to say to a general audience it wouldn’t be published there.

     And the possibility of there being discontent in academic politics and the fall out of budget cuts, amazing. It happens constantly in every subject, with every generation.
4. ianmac 4

   18 June 2023 at 10:38 am

   AD: Still thinking on about your unit on Luxon in Wanaka. We mortals need to know who and what our enemies are and in Luxon's case it spurs us on to support our leftish team. Thanks.
5. Dennis Frank 5

   18 June 2023 at 11:33 am

   Perhaps we have reached peak student??

   the 2023 decline in enrolments was down to a ‘perfect storm’, with about a dozen factors involved, including poor retention, a drop in University Entrance achievement rates, strong job market, and the rising cost of living. Thomson, in that report to MPs, noted that funding from the Government was not ‘’keeping pace with inflation’’.

   ‘’What was a relative narrow gap up to 2020 has opened into a chasm, as funding rate increases failed to adjust as the inflation rate rocketed.’’

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/132253612/a-perfect-storm-inside-the-decline-in-student-numbers-at-the-university-of-otago

   Morphing unis into the growth model seemed a good idea at the time, huh? The resilience test is whether the model can ride out a trough. Neolibs unite! Hold hands!
6. ianmac 6

   18 June 2023 at 11:40 am

   Andrea Vance says in her column today that in the preferred PM stakes, Hitchens up 6 points to 38% and Luxon down 2 to 22%. And repeats the Labour up 3 to 36% National down 1 to 35%.
   • Drowsy M. Kram 6.1

     18 June 2023 at 3:53 pm

     Ardern became leader of the opposition <8 weeks before the 2017 GE, so there's still time for Willis to make her move, taking a leaf out of the perfumed steamroller's book.
     • bwaghorn 6.1.1

       18 June 2023 at 4:10 pm

       Willis has caught luxons wet whiny disease, she isn’t going to sweep national to power
       • Drowsy M. Kram 6.1.1.1

         18 June 2023 at 4:19 pm

         Agreed, but it wouldn't be the first dodgy leadership decision by Nat MPs – former leader Collins is currently responsible for Science Innovation and Technology.
     • tWiggle 6.1.2

       18 June 2023 at 7:27 pm

       Big problem: Willis is a girl.
7. DS 7

   18 June 2023 at 11:41 am

   In Dunedin the university and polytech employ directly or indirectly about 1 in every 5 people in a total of 130,000, and there is no industry to replace it. Previously the university itself had 19,000 students and contributed $1.79 billion to our economy. It was also the reason Dunedin was our most left-leaning city.

   Dunedin has actually been trending Right over the last 15 years or so, even as economic reliance on the University has increased. A city that is as reliant on the Educational and Healthcare sectors as Dunedin, which is well-educated (albeit not wealthy), and in prolonged economic and population decline, really ought to be trending Left… but it isn't. The exact reason remains a mystery.

   It would also be more accurate to note that North Dunedin, seat of the University, is the politically Greenest place in the South Island – though until comparatively recently, students tended to vote more right-wing than the city, since they were following their often middle-class parents. North Dunedin is middle-income, not wealthy, which makes it an oddity among the five Green strongholds (compare Wellington Central, Auckland Central, et al). It was also the last hold-out of old Alliance types.

   And South Dunedin? Home of the working class? No love for the Greens there, but lots and lots of Labour voters. The Taieri electorate is notable as basically the only place in the country (outside possibly migrant-heavy Botany) that takes a dim view of both the Greens and the various wacky anti-vax parties. South Dunedin might be summarised as the sort of place that likes old-school leftist economics, but really could not care less about culture war or social liberalism.
   • Corey 7.1

     19 June 2023 at 6:40 pm

     This is an accurate description.

     Working class electorates like south Dunedin are very anti green and very anti social liberalism but massively support left wing economics.

     There really ought to be a party that appeals to that segment of the electorate, least they just stop voting.

     Plus it could force the social liberals to occasionally be economically liberal too.
8. roy cartland 8

   18 June 2023 at 12:20 pm

   I'd supplement this excellent summary with an emphasis on defunding of arts. In my day, "hip hop" courses were seen as a waste of taxpayer money, now of course we're still playing catch-up to that $multi-billion industry. Same with indigenous arts.

   Now industrial design – I made a comment a few days back about ugly green designs putting people off and holding back green innovation. Fields of solar-panels and wind towers? Gross. But other countries are investing in green tech that fits with the aesthetic, like terracotta solar tiles in Italy for eg. We could be the same, but as the article indicates, we're yet too dumb.
9. barry 9

   18 June 2023 at 12:35 pm

   Universities are not (never have been) hotbeds of radical thought. They are degree mills, where most students are interested only in a piece of paper that will get them a well paid job. It may be good for young people to spend 3 years away from their family living in a squalid, cold, mouldy flat – experimenting with drugs and sex and learning to get on with people they would not otherwise have anything in common with. At the end they come out with their prejudices confirmed, equally unenlightened.

   What is wrong with apprenticeships, and vocational training?

   Creating a degree structure for nursing has just led to student debts and a shortage of nurses. The plus side is that hospitals no longer pay for training, but there is still not enough money to pay the extra wages nurses expect for their investment in education.

   We still need tradies, IT people don't need degrees, it is just an entry gate put in place to keep up wages. There are any number of jobs ion NZ, with shortages of talent where a degree is unnecessary, but required.

   Universities should be properly funded, and basic research should be encouraged. It is not the government that is stifling education it is the model of universities/polytechs having to make a profit. The further problem is polytechs trying to be universities, while universities are trying to be polytechs.
10. tsmithfield 10

    18 June 2023 at 12:46 pm

    I am not sure universities have recovered from the "bums on seats model" from over a decade ago. This approach seemed to treat university education as some sort of Nirvana for success in life, and watered down the quality of our universities with all sorts of inane courses.

    In reality, a lot of students simply weren't suited to the style of thinking required for university. Many are much better suited to practical type occupations such as trades. And there is nothing to be ashamed about so far as a trades career is concerned.

    I was marking first year assignments during my Masters years, and from my experience, there were a lot of students who shouldn't have been at university.

    And, I am not so sure the system teaches students to think and debate these days. Rather, it seems to be more about shouting people down, and excluding people with opposing views.

    I think we need less university, not more. And that it should be for those who have the style of thinking that suit university. And, university needs to return to being a place of academic debate where diverse views are tolerated and encouraged, rather than excluded or shouted down.
    • Patricia Bremner 10.1

      18 June 2023 at 1:29 pm

      We agree here TSmithfield.

      I think as Training Colleges were a huge success to meet the need for Teachers after the war, and that perhaps a preparation model would help students choose their field of endeavours.

      A course which is a foundation for study skills, (so poorly taught in the tick box all jump through these hoops age.)

      I believe we will benefit from the Governments support for Trades, and their targeted money towards medical places.

      The free study should be increased, and money for meaningful scholarships for NZ citizens should be provided, especially where the degree has a social good.

      We saw Education sold off to Private Providers, or become hugely reliant on people from other countries paying to study some questionable courses in years past.

      So we have a downturn world wide, restructuring and the value of everything is being measured against the buyer's wants and needs, even Education sadly.

      Perhaps a model for Universities should be more public and social good, cultural and intellectual endeavours, and less of a business model.
      • Tiger Mountain 10.1.1

        19 June 2023 at 7:08 am

        Rare is the day when I agree with tsmithfield and lprent, but do on this occasion.

        Some of this we did to our selves–bums on seats model, user pay dogma student loans, Vice Chancellors essentially being neo liberal overlords, international rankings, business subjugating humanities…–and some is just change due to birth rates being near below replacement level, technological development, and what type of human intellectual and physical labour is actually required now.
    • Hunter Thompson II 10.2

      18 June 2023 at 2:43 pm

      I agree that NZ universities seem to see education as a numbers game. I suppose the need to get fee income dominates their thinking. There have also been some weird activities, such as the spending controversy on the Otago Uni logo.

      A young friend of mine is very good at motor cycle repairs and has a business doing that. Only later in life did he decide to take up tertiary education, when his kids were older.

      He got a scholarship in his chosen area of study. I think his maturity and obvious commitment were key factors.
11. UncookedSelachimorpha 11

    18 June 2023 at 12:58 pm

    The idea that tertiary education and institutions are (and should be) just a business instead of a public good service and cultural / intellectual endeavour is a big problem. Combined with chronic underfunding from the neoliberal model.

    I thought this article from 2016 about CSIRO cuts captured some of the problems and love the "panel beating for industry" comment.

    Hugh Tyndale-Biscoe of Hackett, one of Australia's most famous wildlife scientists, says in CSIRO's first 50 years, its discoveries were worth many times more to Australia than the money invested in it.

    "Science is about understanding the unknown; business is about exploiting the known," he says.

    ….

    "Since the business model for CSIRO has so comprehensively failed, the government should seriously consider restoring the structure that worked so well for so long."

    ….

    "Clearly that's what the chief executive of CSIRO wants now is to transform the organisation from being a public good institution which is what its act proclaims it is, into really something that just does panel beating for industry.
12. Gordon 12

    18 June 2023 at 1:58 pm

    The research, critique and wider thinking functions of the universities are no longer valued, as they have become glorified vocational training establishments.

    The expectation of a lucrative job immediately on graduation has been fostered by the universities to get students into courses which have high fees and low costs. For example, accountancy, law business administration, communications all have much lower costs than physics, chemistry or medicine. But I doubt that any B. Com. or BDI (I had to look it up too) will cure cancer, solve the ecological emergency, or improve the mobile phone.

    Employers too have dismissed general education – specifically the B.A. Anyone with the skills to have complted a B.A. in history or philosophy can surely handle entry-level jobs in virtually any sphere.

    I no longer employ people. But if I did I would still greatly prefer to find a B.A. who was able and willing to learn, and already had the skills to write a coherent report, summarise submissions, do reseearch and formulate conclusions.

    And when I was training people I found that employers resented training junior staff in the specifics of their business to an astonishing degree.
    • Craig H 12.1

      19 June 2023 at 11:07 am

      Another problem is credentialism where a degree is required for jobs that don't actually need them as a way to reduce job application numbers. I have sympathy for that having been on recruitment panels with 500 applications, but in that world (mostly corporate and public sector), BAs are fine.
13. tWiggle 13

    18 June 2023 at 3:30 pm

    Simon Upton moved DSIR into CRIs following an model encouraging research targetted to economic good for NZ as a whole (eg, GNS) or for key and emerging industries (eg AgResearch). Even in DSIR, most researchers were already servicing economic sectors with targeted projects, but at 100% government subsidy.

    Industry sectors now had to contribute significant research cash too; while government acknowledged that most of NZ's industries are just too small to fund researchers in a given area without subsidies.

    You can only do the great part of blue skies research by thoroughly knowing the field you support, including real-world implementation.

    The cautionary tale I was told is of DSIR scientists who developed a method to take cholesterol out of butter. Unfortunately NZ's dairy industry didn't see it as a wonderful new product. Instead it was a message to consumers that butter contains heaps of cholesterol, ie negative publicity for their primary, cheaply-made product.

    CSIRO's problem in 2016 and 2021 was largely with the government of the day, which stepped in to censor research it found problematic to its fossil fuel position.
14. Drowsy M. Kram 14

    18 June 2023 at 4:06 pm

    When downsizing means destroying our universities [31 May 2023]
    So if the government remains unwilling to fill the current funding hole I would argue they need to be asked directly: which one of our universities would you like to cut?

    Time to reconsider the case for a 'University of Aotearoa New Zealand', or perhaps a lesser merger? But would our competitive 'bums on seats' Uni business sector wear it?

    Te Pūkenga issues new style guide advising against using words like 'merger' and 'student' [15 March 2023]
15. lprent 15

    18 June 2023 at 11:10 pm

    I think that you have hit the nail on the head about the underlying problem which is/was…

    But we have very little other than skiing, surfing and safety to attract people to fly and qualify here for several years.

    Why should NZ education be dependent on overseas students? All industries and sectors have to have a sustainable long-term operational model, especially if they have to invest in capital as the tertiary sector has been madly doing for the last few decades. For the the last ~30 years of

    Higher education’s seven-decade run of unbroken good fortune – always more students, more money, more economic demand, more social prestige – is ending.

    that sustainable operational model simply hasn't been there.

    The growth of the tertiary sector has been from importing overseas students. The pandemic simply exposed that model as being unsustainable.

    Personally I didn't go to university to become person of "a progressive-leaning middle class". My immediate family was a progressive middle class well before my mother was the first in our family went to uni as a adult student after being a nurse. They were in the trades. You didn't need to have gone to university to be progressive or middle class. Many of my relatives, young and old, are both – having never gone to university.

    Personally I think that you have your cause and effect completely screwed.

    I was the second to go to uni. I went because I'd already had jobs in factories, farms, the army, and simply wasn't sure what I wanted to do or what I was interested in. So I did a BSc, worked in a pub, and did weekend army to continue figuring out what I didn't want to do or what I did. In effect it did because I found programming, but didn't want to do it as a job until after PC's showed and got integrated into companies a decade later.

    That uncertainty oabout what I wanted to do was what I had in common with almost everyone other student I have ever known at uni – outside of the professions. That includes my current niece who is doing her degree in Auckland at present.

    It is pretty clear that the combination of chronic long term under-funding, economic headwinds, demographic shrinkage, and massive accelerated restructuring, is turning into something that the entire tertiary sector has not seen in living memory. Only a few of our universities and polytech centres are in reality going to survive it.

    This isn't exactly news. All of these factors were quite obviously present when I advised my partner to stop working in academia more than 12 years ago.

    She stopped 5 years ago and seems to have never regretted it. I'm mostly surprised that the people in the tertiary sector didn't realise that they were working in a fools dream, and that a massive readjustment was inevitable. In my opinion, there isn't a lot of difference between the tertiary sector in 2020 and the farming sector addicted to SMP subsidies back in 1982.

    Just another unsustainable industry full of misguided fools going to have a inevitable painful adjustment. It was obvious to me when I was on farms in 1977 that it wasn't sustainable without adjustment. Which was why I didn't try to become a farmer.

    The "chronic long term under-funding" was an issue because the tertiary sector got addicted to overseas students and ignored everything else. So they kept expanding well after when they should have been adjusting to demographic shrinkage. That meant that rather than pushing for something sustainable with the actual demographics, we got stupidities like tertiary institutions wasting effort and resources on marketing campaigns for overseas students.

    Rather than something more sustainable like providing space for adult students. Just look at the silence from tertiary institutions when programs like night-school got terminated. That was the essential leg-up for adult students to go to tertiary.

    At this point there isn't a point in trying to prop up the tertiary sector to carry on what it has been doing. It is better to let it fall back to something that is more sustainable. There are some areas that probably need some support to retain capabilities, especially in the arts and humanities areas. The 'hard' areas like science, technology, or professions should pretty much stand on their own. Some of the softer courses in areas like business and management will probably suffer a lot because they were so exposed to a dependence on overseas students.
    • mpledger 15.1

      19 June 2023 at 11:38 am

      Universities were never in a position to make themselves sustainable. There are all sorts of crazy rules about how much loss or profit they can make (~3% per year) that means that every year is a scrape to get into the margin. There is no ability to build up a nest egg to innovate or be resilient when circumstances change.

      There are very few levers for them to fill financial gaps except by getting bums on seats.
      • lprent 15.1.1

        21 June 2023 at 12:29 pm

        They do have a sort of a nest egg. Depending on the details of the transactions and property can be leveraged against, rented out, brought and sold. Especially if the property was a result of a donation of some kind. Similarly with the ways used for depreciation on property, and the deferral or inclusion of maintenance.

        This shows up in university accounts when you dig down a little. It makes realising the profit accounting targets on a P&L easier than you'd expect based on the +/- 3% banding. It gets leveraged against a balance sheet.

        In the end it doesn't matter when basic demographics or market shifts are happening. But universities (and businesses) often overuse it when times are bad and don't make required changes early enough. Which usually results in a nasty crunch later and excessive slicing out of useful and productive areas.

        I just think of the daft optimism of Holyoake and Muldoon and the post-UK into the EEC policies of National whenever I write this point.
16. tsmithfield 16

    19 June 2023 at 7:25 am

    A thing that is really important to me is to see we have a well educated society.

    I find it really concerning, and quite disturbing, actually, that our society seems to be becoming increasingly illiterate and reactionary.

    So far as tertiary education is concerned, I actually think we need to be looking at models to fully fund fees to encourage people to invest in their education. Being burdened with a hefty student loan for a good period of a working life is a serious impediment I think.

    But, I am also concerned about the likelihood that making it too easy could result in people not taking their education seriously because someone else is picking up the tab.

    So, I would like to see a model where fees are rebated upon successful completion of a course for a given year. That would encourage people to work hard to ensure they didn't end up with a student loan at the end of their course. And, wouldn't wouldn't require successful completion of the whole course. Rather, just success at the end of each year. So, it is more achievable, and the goals are not too far out in the future.
    • tsmithfield 16.1

      19 June 2023 at 7:56 am

      This idea could even be more granular. Perhaps a rebate on a paper by paper basis for instance, to make the target more immediate and achievable.
17. Thinker 17

    19 June 2023 at 7:43 am

    Here's an idea, totally without evidence or foundation…

    Suppose the sector had a few bad years, due to covid and a lack of international students.

    Following a statistical trend, it cuts back, albeit just about the time when the cycle is going to turn.

    Re TSmithfield comment above, I have a voluntary role that puts me in sight of a lot of fees free applications. Many, I wonder, are going to find it hard to cope with the basic study skills and the prognosis looks dire, but I do see some people who might not otherwise have considered tertiary study but with some application might make it through.
18. Corey 18

    19 June 2023 at 7:21 pm

    1. University is becoming less attractive every year to young people, why take on enormous debt to get a qualification that probably won't even help you get a job in the industry you're qualified to work in.

    Take a look at the legions of university grads working at Starbucks, Maccas or bartending, these days most of them aren't even arts grads!

    Also unlike older generations, Gen Z and Gen Y know damn well, within 15 years most jobs will have been taken by automation and ai, and this includes medical professional jobs. So why bother with that debt?

    2. Universities like Otago and VU have benefited since 2011 from getting thousands of students a year who would have gone to UC, but because of the quakes destroying the cbd of chch decided to go to OU or VU, this year UC is killing it, enrollments are back at prequake levels and the campus is popping. Vu and ou don't seem to have planned for the inevitable change in enrollment levels for when the second largest city went fully back on line.

    3. Universities shouldn't be run like corporations. In fact they should go back to pre 1996 operations. Young people might not be willing to pay to go anymore…

    4. A lot of those jobs at universities that are going…. seem to be more admin and student support roles rather than teaching roles, which is fantastic if you ask us students (I'm in my final year) because those student support and admin roles provide nothing of value and simply make our student loans more expensive. Good riddance.

    The polytechnic merger however, was an utter failure motivated purely by ideology, just like all the government nationwide mergers (as a nurse or doctor about TWO)

    As for Dunedin, as much as I love that city, in the last 15 years Dunedin has turned down every opportunity offered to it from hotels, to waterfronts to redevelopment all which would have created jobs and economic benefits Dunedin has said no time and time again.
    • Muttonbird 18.1

      19 June 2023 at 7:33 pm

      1. A degree is a smart investment:

      Students recognise that earning a degree creates great benefits for them and their families, and that’s why they are willing to take on an average of $15,000 debt as they know they’ll earn $1.3-$4 million more over their working lives than a non-graduate, says Chris Whelan, Executive Director of Universities New Zealand.

      Median hourly earnings are 65% higher for New Zealanders with a degree or higher qualification compared with those with no qualifications – this is more than twice the earnings premium of those with lower level tertiary qualifications.”
19. Philstar 19

    22 June 2023 at 9:32 am

    This is a result of not increasing funding in an inflationary environment. The govt has effectively defunded our tertiary education while amalgamating our polytechs in an organization which is proving to be an expensive disaster!

    Excellent work!

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