End of the Internet Party?

Written By: - Date published: 11:21 am, November 22nd, 2014 - 192 comments
Categories: internet party - Tags: ,

https://twitter.com/fmacskasy/status/535896758979932160

192 comments on “End of the Internet Party? ”

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  1. rados 1
    22 November 2014 at 11:25 am

    Time to delete the IP app off my iPad!

    What about the Dotcom war chest – reappropriated to Mana for 2017? Would it then be a poisoned chalice?

  2. Draco T Bastard 2
    22 November 2014 at 11:55 am

    Not necessarily:

    Laila Harré to step down – member survey still open

    I wanted you to know before the public that I will be stepping down from the leadership of the Internet Party at the completion of our current review.

    As I said after the election, I am committed to guiding the Party through the review so that members have the final say on what the future looks like.

    I thought it was important for you to know my own position before decisions are made. I can see from the survey results so far that you have appreciated me and my leadership – and I can tell you that it’s mutual. I am very proud of what our candidates, staff, active members, and on-line forum participants have created and achieved in just a few months. I really hope that you will all take part in the survey and decision-making process as it’s important to reach into the whole membership for your views.

    The survey will close at midnight this Sunday 23 November.

    Here is the link again: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/InternetPartyFutureMemberEma…

    Thanks to those who have already responded to the survey on the future of the Internet Party.

    If you haven’t please do. Whatever your opinion of the future we want to hear from you.

    This survey is not a vote – it is intended to canvas all the options and engage members. One we have identified those options (nothing ruled in or out yet) members will make the decisions on the future.

    Thanks for participating.

    Laila Harré,
    Internet Party Leader.

    The IP still have active members and candidates. One person isn’t the party.

    • Chooky 2.1
      22 November 2014 at 3:46 pm

      +100 thanks DTB…i am a great fan of Laila Harre and Dotcom and the Internet Party…they are ahead of the political game in NZ

      ….and they could have quite easily have won four seats with Mana…if it hadn’t been for the other parties ganging up on them ….and ‘Dirty politics’ ….a concerted campaign against them by the likes of Slater, Farrar, Hooton, the right wing msm….and Sean Plunket and Paul Henry …it was relentless…which showed how much of a threat they were to the John Key Nact right wing and the USA corporates

  3. Pete George 3
    22 November 2014 at 12:16 pm

    Is ‘Notices and Features’ the name of “The Standard” (aka notices and features). or is it at author’s personal pseudonym?

    [lprent: Is there any content in this post that is an opinion by the author? That is what Notices and Features is for. To quote the policy.

    If the site is reposting material from another site with no opinion or minimal opinion from an author, then it will go up under the name of “The Standard” (aka notices and features).

    I guess your conservative spite blinded you into not reading the post. ]

    • Tiger Mountain 3.1
      22 November 2014 at 12:49 pm

      Laila did well with a very difficult job in an exceedingly short time frame by party political norms.

      Lest we forget;
      –the election result would have been even worse if not for the various “get out and vote” campaigns
      –left disunity in all directions scuppered the ship ultimately, Green vs Labour and everybody vs Internet Mana. It will not be forgotten for a long time by some, that Labour well resourced Kunning Kelvin in the West Auckland end of Te Tai Tokerau (which was where the votes came from that denied Hone and Laila) when some Labour insiders have revealed woeful organisation and lack of resources in several general seat Auckland LECs.

      As for Internet Mana, they dropped the ball in the final few weeks with the changed smart arse bill boards, and other fundamental mistakes, but Mana Movement’s class based approach with community action regardless of parliament lives on.

      I hope the internet party continues too.

      • weka 3.1.1
        22 November 2014 at 1:18 pm

        I’m not sure if they should continue. KDC’s disappearance into videoland is disappointing and has reinforced the perception, mistaken or otherwise, that he is self-serving. If he’s not going to have intergrity at this point, the IP will be hard pressed to live down its beginnings.

        I agree we definitely need a party/parties to the left of the G/LP, and that many of the IP’s policies and strategies are important and worthwhile.

        • dave brown 3.1.1.1
          22 November 2014 at 5:11 pm

          Weka
          Why should KDC have to jump over higher bars than sundry political hacks to prove his political ‘integrity’.
          I wouldn’t say KDC has ‘disappeared into videoland’.
          I would say that he is fighting against being ‘disappeared’ into the bowels of US security state. (Chooky makes this point below).
          I think a lot of us at the time saw exactly what was happening.
          Mana became a big threat to Key only when IP joined forces.
          Mana reaches into the dark side of colonial NZ, and challenges the racist authoritarian mindset that JK is now fatuously displaying openly.
          IP was even more of a threat. The right meme was KDC was getting ‘personal’.
          Yet Key was the one taking its personally because he was the ‘little president’ carrying the can for the US in NZ.
          It was IP (KDC) that exposed the international 5 eye links that almost had Key on the ropes.
          Most of this commentary about Laila Harre is parochial and does not establish the geopolitical context.
          The email sounded genuine to me. That is exactly how Key would relate to a Hollywood bigwig. Keys deniability is hollow.
          Holder, the AG who gunned for KDC is a key figure in Obama’s spy war prosecuting hackers, whistleblowers, and responsible for Aaron Swartz’s death. KDC is also up there as an ‘enemy of the state’.
          But there was more hinging on the election well beyond the internet and 5 eyes. The completion of the TPPA and NZ being locked in as a US client state and like the other TPPA lackeys a backdoor mat to US penetration of China.
          Post APEC and G20 this scenario is already playing out, but that’s another post. http://redrave.blogspot.co.nz/2014/11/chinanew-zealand-win-win-deal.html
          So in the last analysis the NACTs were desperate to win the election at all costs to complete the neoliberal trifecta, and KDC was a big fly in that ointment.
          So IMP got done over by not only the NACTs but by the whimpish L/G/NZF centre as well because their parochial political horizon was limited to the narrow self interest of NZ middle class ‘centre’ voter.
          Rent rorting myopia is the political centres handicap and it defines the centre left politics.
          Those who don’t escape this parochialism have nothing useful to say about NZ politics.
          Mana and IP are two opportunities to break out of this swamp.

          • weka 3.1.1.1.1
            22 November 2014 at 5:46 pm

            Thanks Dave, that’s good analysis.

            “Why should KDC have to jump over higher bars than sundry political hacks to prove his political ‘integrity’.”

            I completely agree and it’s been sad to see so many on the left, even relatively radical lefties, take the view that he should somehow have been exemplary (ffs, he wasn’t even standing for parliament). The great kiwi knocking machine was out in force too.

            “I wouldn’t say KDC has ‘disappeared into videoland’.”

            It’s more the perception I think. His presence on twitter has been largely about the video games he’s been playing. I’m sure he needed to do some major destressing, but unfortunately he’s come across as someone looking after himself rather than staying involved in the things he just spent 6 months working so hard for. This reinforces the meme that the IP was all about his Key vendetta/avoidance of extradition (an incorrect meme IMO).

            (and I agree he has a lot on his plate with the court issues).

          • Tracey 3.1.1.1.2
            22 November 2014 at 5:57 pm

            Well thought through dave. Thanks.

          • marty mars 3.1.1.1.3
            22 November 2014 at 8:55 pm

            Good analysis dave

            “Mana became a big threat to Key only when IP joined forces.”

            I agree, especially with the ‘big’ bit.

          • karol 3.1.1.1.4
            22 November 2014 at 9:12 pm

            Mana became a big threat to Key only when IP joined forces.

            That part kind of negates the rest of your main argument. IMP were ill prepared for the opposing forces that their joint manoeuvre unleashed on them. The hook-up was done too hastily, without a lot of careful planning.

            I think you paint too positive a picture of KDC’s motives.

            Yes, he has been very badly treated by the Key-US campaign against him. And KDC has done us all a big favour by exposing what was happening.

            However, KDC was also driven by as big an ego and as Key. KDC DID as much to make it personal against Key as Key did. Key would always respond aggressively to such personal challenges as KDC made towards him.

            Mana and IP are two opportunities to break out of this swamp.

            I get that many people were so pleased to see someone (IMP) stand up and take on Key, the NACts and their collusion with the US-military industrial complex. I’m not sure how deep KDC’s desire to change the system goes. he still comes across to me as a neoliberal entrepreneur.

            However, IMP was a doomed endeavour because it was done too hastily, had too much of KDC front and centre, and they just weren’t prepared for the attacks unleashed on them.

            And part of the repercussions were that Labour and the Greens were caught on the hop, unprepared for the kind of attacks coming to the left. All they probably saw was their careful preparations for the election being derailed.

            Yes, I’d like to see a stronger left take on the right. But, IMP just wasn’t the way to do it. And it’s not helpful to the left in the future to put most of the blame with the non-IMP left.

            More fruitful to learn from this failure, and to think of a better, stronger, more left-wide inclusive way forward.

            • weka 3.1.1.1.4.1
              23 November 2014 at 12:25 am

              “IMP were ill prepared for the opposing forces that their joint manoeuvre unleashed on them. The hook-up was done too hastily, without a lot of careful planning.”

              Labour and the GP were also ill prepared for the opposing forces, and they’ve been around for a while and done lots of careful planning. What does that tell us?

              • karol …
                23 November 2014 at 7:05 am

                Hmmmm… yessss…. but Labour and the GP did not set the IMP in motion, and had to respond at short notice. It put them in a very difficult position.

                I only partly agree with you on your comment @ 12.25am, weka..

                I do think Labour and the GP have still not really found a way to deal with the Nat smear machine.

                Part of the problem is that, as Lusk explained, attack politics works more for the right. Labour and the GP were trying to run a positive election campaign at the point of the Mana-IP hook-up..

                I can imagine that some of the Labour and GP people, like me, would not be happy being aligned with KDC’s initiative or with his approach to politics. From my position on the margins, I found it a bit difficult writing posts about IMP during the election. I tried to focus mainly on any thing I liked in their policies. But I had many criticisms of KDC’s involvement, and really had to restrained myself from being critical of him online or of the whole IMP endeavour during the election.

                • phillip ure …
                  23 November 2014 at 7:18 am

                  @ karol..

                  ..and you are quite happy about labour/greens parroting the rightwing attack-memes against mana/imp..?

                  ..singing along with the media-douchebags like gower..?

                  .and you are still doing this..parroting their postscript-script..

                  ..labour and the greens lost the election for the left..

                  ..by both refusing to run mmp-campaigns..accomodating each other..

                  (..and they thus cannabilised each other..handed dunne/act their fucken seats..f.f.s..!)

                  ..and by attacking/doing all they could to kill off their allies.. the mana/internet party..

                  ..that is what lost the election…

                  ..that is why you are still sitting in the opposition camp..

                  ..and not in govt…

                  ..not ‘kim dotcom’…

                  • Matthew Whitehead …
                    24 November 2014 at 7:17 pm

                    The Green Party really didn’t say anything negative about IMP until after the campaign, at which point Russell talked about the strategy being frustrating and ill-advised.

                    I’d say attack politics works great for Labour, but only when they aim it at genuine left-wing parties. They continue to be the electorate party of the centre and haven’t yet figured out how to deal with a large Green Party to their left, or the fact that there’s still a significant chunk of New Zealand that thinks they’ve gone too far right.

                    I think there needs to be a solid two-party or three-party strategy on the left, (Labour is now so clearly sitting in the centre ground that there is probably room for three left-wing parties. If IMP showed anything, it showed that) with each of these parties giving principled, positive messages that don’t attack each other, and being able to unite around a leader in a way that makes them look like a solid team.

            • dave brown 3.1.1.1.4.2
              23 November 2014 at 1:03 am

              How does the point that Mana became a threat only when IP joined forces with it negate my argument Karol?

              You seem to have missed the point. Mana was certainly a threat to the NACTS for the reasons I gave. Take Emmerson’s cartoons about Hone Harawira. But it was the alliance with IP that saw the right go really rabid.

              Why, because people were offended with a fat German ego buying his way into parliament? Hardly. No, Mana plus IP was a bomb about to blow comfortable, patronising rich crony pricks off their perch.

              You are buying into the right’s demonisation of IMP by reducing it to KDC’s ego and lack of preparation. Personally I think that IMP was better organised than the Greens or Labour. I think Robertson’s ego is twice as big as Dotcoms, and Key’s three times as big, because they put their ego before their convictions. Nobody with a big ego gets up and makes the sort of mea culpa KDC made on election night. The internal ill discipline in IMP was half that of Labour’s divided caucus and the Greens mixed messages about Labour and National.

              The Greens and Labour only reacted badly to IMP because they saw their centrist politics also under threat from the left. Yes they were thrown by Dirty Politics, but their response was gutless because they allowed themselves to join in Key’s dirty politics rather than making dirty politics the No 1 election issue.

              Your comment makes my point that those who are bogged down in the superficialities of parochial politics have nothing worth saying about NZ politics.

              • Clemgeopin …
                23 November 2014 at 1:30 am

                Yes, you are quite correct.

                To me the biggest mistake of Labour was not giving Davies a high list position if they felt he was indispensable. Had they done that and embraced IMP and supported Hone, today Labour would have been leading the coalition, with some excellent people as MPs.

                True, KDC went a little too overboard and crowded the news, but he was not to know how things would actually pan out in our media which accentuated the negative sensational biased stuff rather than policies and real issues.

                We are all talking after the fact from hind sight.

              • karol …
                23 November 2014 at 7:25 am

                You are buying into the right’s demonisation of IMP by reducing it to KDC’s ego and lack of preparation.

                Oh please, give me some credit for making my own judgement. That’s just a weak ad hominem.

                The lack of preparation is a legitimate criticism. Harre pretty much as admitted it in pointing to the IMP weakness in the face of the right smear machine.

                KDC has an ego as big as, and he put it in the centre of the whole IP and IMP thing. He could not take a back seat. It was there for everyone to see. KDC has a very macho aggressive approach that I do not like, in or out of politics.

                Yes, all politicians have a big ego, and Key has one of the biggest. KDC DID make it personal between him and Key. It’s there in his appearance before the select committee and many press statements he made. He thought he could use a corporate style approach to politics, without any real understanding of the way things can play out in the political arena. His whole MO is riddled with celebrity culture, individualistic, entrepreneurial corporate style capitalism.

                Other politicians are way too political savvy to put their ego out there as the centre-piece of their politics, in the way KDC did.

                KDC and the IMP leaders, if they had any political savvy, would have been able to foresee the kind of opposition they would get. Now some of them and their supporters are blaming everyone else for IMP’s failure.

                They used an approach – the coat-tailing thing – that many of us on the left had been highly critical of in the past. I frequently criticised NACT for “gaming the system”. It was painful to me to see the left resorting to that. That is NACT territory, and they play hard ball. A folly to ditch principles in a win-at-all-cost approach.

                The whole IMP enterprise grated strongly against many aspects of my politics and principles. It’s not surprising that the right smear machine would pick up on that clash of principles within the left.

                The IMP endeavour failed – there are many factors in that. But some of us have been opposed to if on principle, and because it never would have achieved any medium-to-long term success for the left.

                Blaming everyone else for IMPs failure does not magically make considered criticisms somehow weak or irrelevant.

            • Colonial Rawshark 3.1.1.1.4.3
              23 November 2014 at 6:40 am

              1) Saying that IMP was “unprepared” is unfair. How can a tiny political party be any more prepared for a grand coalition of National, Labour, Greens and NZ First voting against you, in their first time running jointly for Parliament. Seriously. Again as I have said previously, Harawira was just 800 votes away in Te Tai Tokerau from both him and Laila Harre getting into Parliament. A 800 vote loss is not a crash and burn from my way of looking at things.

              2) Trying to criticise KDC for having a big ego without looking at the other side of the coin is bullshit. Why? Because it is both a strength and a weakness. You don’t attempt to upset the political applecart of an entire country by being a shrinking violet.

              All in all people criticising Internet Mana for being “too hasty” fail to see both its tactics and its strategy: a surprise maneuver by a political party insurgency on the flanks of the NZ political economic establishment. That establishment, including Labour and Greens, then acted to crush it.

              Again I say, IMP failed to reach its objectives by a mere 800 votes. Trying to use that to characterise and attribute all kinds of personal and fatal flaws to KDC and IMP is ridiculous.

              • phillip ure …
                23 November 2014 at 7:03 am

                williams is pretty puke-inducing on the nation when he fails to even acknowledge that ganging-up on harawira by all the other parties..

                ..he just continues the sneering campaign he has run since day one..

                ..he totally grinds my gears..that williams..

                ..the past godfather of neo-lib trouts..

                ..and now an obedient-tool/mouthpiece for the right..

                ..(disguised/working undercover as a spokesperson for ‘the left’..

                ..i’ve said it before..the only time williams turns/looks to the left..

                ..is at the end of his fucken driveway..)

                ..williams is the walking symbol of the lazy/lost labour party of yore..

              • karol …
                23 November 2014 at 7:35 am

                1)”Unprepared” is a very fair criticism. Throwing together a party so close to the election was never a good idea. I’m pretty sure you are one to say a party needs to start campaigning at the beginning of a term, not at the end.

                2)You just don’t get that I am opposed to that whole style of KDC macho, individualistic approach to politics. The means will infect any ends that are achieved.

                You over state the case about some concerted Labour-Greens effort to crush it. As far as I could see, there was a strong Labour effort to crush Harawira in Te Tai Tokerau. The GP largely held back and refrained from attacking IMP, as far as I recall. They just tried to keep on with their planned election campaign.

                I have seen such late, high profile runs in the US, as kind of anti-establishment, entrepreneurial counter to establishment politics – enabled by someone with a load of money. They never succeed past a brief glare of publicity and short-lived momentum. Where is Ross Perot now?

                There is no quick left wing fix. Any real success will need to mobilise wide sections of the population from above and below, and it will need to be steadily built over time.

                • dave brown …
                  23 November 2014 at 10:33 am

                  “unprepared”

                  How can you isolate that as of any relevance? Quoting US parallels out of context won’t do.
                  That is not a political analysis.
                  I would say better late than never given the context explained above.
                  IMP coming in late did more to challenge the NACTs than Labour and the Greens have done in decades of “preparation”.
                  You obviously don’t share that view because the IMP also challenged Labour and the Greens politics as usual.
                  That is why L/G/NZF joined in Keys demonisation of KDC to smash IMP.
                  If the Greens didn’t exactly hold the knife they looked in the other direction.

                  “macho”

                  You too share that demonisation by reducing IMP to your dislike of KDCs ‘macho’ style. I won’t even go to ‘individualism’. Even if that was true of KDC, or by a stretch the IP under Harre, was it also true of the Mana component in IMP?

                  I think that “macho” is more of a personal slander than a political analysis.

                  I don’t think we have time to indulge in platitudes about “steadily building over time” in the face of global recession and climate change. That is why I said earlier that Mana and IP pointed the way forward. At least these parties share the view that to survive in a system that is engaging in endless war, destroying nature, and removing our freedoms to resist, demands some urgent new political initiatives, now!

                  • weka …
                    23 November 2014 at 12:00 pm

                    While I agree that KDC has a substantial ego, I don’t see his style as macho. In fact, what I’ve seen of his personal way of interacting with people is that he comes across as respectful and thoughtful, and appears to learn from his mistakes when they are pointed out to him. His apology on election night was not the style of someone embedded in macho politics. Have another look at it (below). This is the genuine, thoughtful apology of someone who is willing to take responsibility for his actions and who regrets how his actions have impacted on others. That’s not macho.

                    His submission to the select committee on the GCSB bill was also not macho. It was a sublime piece of political action from a powerful man who knows how to use his personal and institutional power to speak truth to the rotten power of John Key. Yes, he engaged in humiliating Key but I didn’t see that as vendetta, I saw it as a considered, targeted action of power meeting power and KDC standing up and saying “you cannot get away with this”.

                    It wasn’t macho, and for me personally it was the point at which I started to trust KDC and put aside the celebrity stuff and really look at the political.

                    I think calling his actions in that process macho misunderstands power, and perhaps that is what is really at issue here. People don’t like someone with a lot of power supporting the left. Karol, I think there is an important, ongoing conversation here about power and its place on the left, but for me power itself isn’t macho, macho is a specific kind of relationship with power.

                    I think the tendancies for KDC’s power to negatively affect the left (and his ego, celebrity etc) were balanced by who he was working with. The IMP candidates were an amazing bunch of people, including Harre, and I have only seen respect amongst them.

                    I think that KDC went through a learning curve in his engagement with Mana, and it is clear from the election night speech that he received a lot of support from them too. I think Annette Sykes spoke early on in the campaign about KDC having to front up to meetings at Marae and that he would have been challenged on any bullshit at that point. I seriously doubt that Māori would have been glamoured by him and let his personality/celebrity override their own politics and perspectives.

                    The thing about individualism infecting process and the party, well all I can say is that the only way that would happen is if the party didn’t have its kaupapa sorted to begin with. I don’t see that failure, but would be interested in some examples.

                    I think it’s fine for you to dislike KDC and his influence. However I find some of your arguments illogical eg the idea that if IP had taken time to build a party they would have been prepared for Dirty Politics is belied by the two main left wing, long established parties not being prepared for DP.

                    http://www.3news.co.nz/politics/dotcom-to-mana-im-deeply-sorry-2014092023

                  • weka …
                    23 November 2014 at 12:29 pm

                    “I don’t think we have time to indulge in platitudes about “steadily building over time” in the face of global recession and climate change. That is why I said earlier that Mana and IP pointed the way forward. At least these parties share the view that to survive in a system that is engaging in endless war, destroying nature, and removing our freedoms to resist, demands some urgent new political initiatives, now!”

                    Completely agree with this. There is nothing inherently wrong with moving fast, and it’s not like half of IMP wasn’t an established party anyway. We don’t have ten years for the IP to build itself, establish a reputation with the mainstream and establishment and then work towards getting into parliament. We needed something radical and they just about pulled it off.

                    I like what KDC says in that election night speech about having woken people up irrespective of not winning seats in parliament. Even with the failure, they did something mighty.

              • weka …
                23 November 2014 at 12:03 pm

                “Again I say, IMP failed to reach its objectives by a mere 800 votes. Trying to use that to characterise and attribute all kinds of personal and fatal flaws to KDC and IMP is ridiculous.”

                Spot on analysis CV.

              • Chooky …
                23 November 2014 at 12:17 pm

                +100 CR…”IMP failed to reach its objectives by a mere 800 votes. Trying to use that to characterise and attribute all kinds of personal and fatal flaws to KDC and IMP is ridiculous”.

              • David Hallimore …
                23 November 2014 at 7:01 pm

                The problem with KDC he let his ego get in the way. It is one thing to fund IMP but that is where his involvement should have ended. He didn’t need to be on stage for any of the events took place.

                Average NZer got sick of seeing him.

                • greywarshark …
                  23 November 2014 at 9:08 pm

                  @ Dave Hallimore
                  Speak for yourself and mates. Others were interested, concerned, fascinated, to see the guy and hear more – straight from the horses mouth. Much about him was fed to us by the media, and they work out their line of attack each morning while they are putting on their socks and shoes.

                  • Clemgeopin …
                    23 November 2014 at 9:51 pm

                    It is astonishing that there are strong groups of quite unfair and nasty people and strangely unbalanced prejudiced media around on the RW side of politics, when most ordinary people themselves are quite fair minded, caring and decent! A puzzle!

          • Chooky 3.1.1.1.5
            23 November 2014 at 8:50 am

            +100 dave brown ..well said

      • karol 3.1.2
        22 November 2014 at 3:36 pm

        I was never happy with the IMP arrangement. It confused the issue with respect to the identity Mana had developed and the values/policies it most strongly favoured. I’d prefer Laila to go with Mana directly.

      • Chooky 3.1.3
        22 November 2014 at 3:47 pm

        TM…+100

      • Murray Rawshark 3.1.4
        23 November 2014 at 12:11 am

        I wouldn’t miss the Internet Party, but I’ll do my bit to see Mana lives on. We need it now more than ever.

        • Molly 3.1.4.1
          23 November 2014 at 9:51 am

          The development of the tools for policy discussions and press releases by the Internet Party, would be valuable for Mana to use as a small party.

          • phillip ure 3.1.4.1.1
            23 November 2014 at 10:02 am

            @ molly..+ 1..

            ..i was particularly impressed by their policy-making process..

            ..it was a seachange for the better in democracy..i felt..

            ..and much better than the current method used by most parties..

            ..where a small group of people (policy-wonks?) draw up the policy..

            ..under the direction/approval-regime of the party leadership..

            ..i will be arguing for mana to adopt that..

            ..’cos the fact is..as just one example..that had the party members drawn up ..say..the pot policy..in a free and open forum..

            ..the mana policy pot wd have been in step with the internet party policy..

            ..which wouldn’t have hurt..

            ..and/but mainly..wd have been more an example of democracy in action..

      • Salsy 3.1.5
        23 November 2014 at 7:11 pm

        +1 Lest we forget, Labour 2014. Wiped out the entire left.

    • Draco T Bastard 3.2
      22 November 2014 at 12:54 pm

      You trolling already PG?

    • karol 3.3
      22 November 2014 at 12:58 pm

      It’s a notification of tweets without an additional comment, appropriate to Notices and Features.

      • Draco T Bastard 3.3.1
        22 November 2014 at 1:16 pm

        Pretty sure that PG has had that explained to him before.

        • weka 3.3.1.1
          22 November 2014 at 1:37 pm

          +1

          and if he hasn’t he’d have to be pretty thick to not have figured it out himself, given how much time he’s spent here.

          I see the trole is back then.

      • Pete George 3.3.2
        22 November 2014 at 2:44 pm

        It’s a collection of Tweets fairly obviously selected to target, Patrick Gower despite the title. You could pick a few tweets to say anything, as has been done here. It’s a bit of a stretch calling that “notification” but it’s your call.

        • weka 3.3.2.1
          22 November 2014 at 2:52 pm

          the person who put up the notice picked the tweets they wanted. What’s the problem with that? You really still don’t get how the standard works do you Pete.

          • Tracey 3.3.2.1.1
            22 November 2014 at 5:58 pm

            It is all about pete. Isnt it?!?

          • Pete George 3.3.2.1.2
            22 November 2014 at 7:15 pm

            Who was “the person who put up the notice”?

            In referring to “how the standard works” do you mean technically? Bits and bytes sort of stuff? From what Lyn says I understand that is all there is to “how the standard works”. Or is supposed to be.

            [lprent: Read the about and the policy. You don’t have to invent complicated conspiracy theories. We make that as transparent as we can. Where we cannot, as in the privacy policy and why we use and encourage the use of pseudonyms, we explain why we do it a particular way. That you don’t like it just makes me wonder about why you don’t like the policies and feel compelled to question them with the inevitable results. ]

            • weka 3.3.2.1.2.1
              22 November 2014 at 7:35 pm

              “Who was “the person who put up the notice”?”

              Do you mean what is their name? Why would anyone tell you that?

              “In referring to “how the standard works” do you mean technically?”

              Yes, we are all bots, and pretty clever ones at that because we can fake community and make decisions about content and moderation and organisation.

            • r0b 3.3.2.1.2.2
              22 November 2014 at 9:47 pm

              I put up this post Pete. Does it matter? Your obsession with The Standard is unhealthy, and frankly creepy.

              • Pete George …
                23 November 2014 at 5:55 am

                Why didn’t you put it up under your own ID the r0b? I thought you were usually upfront, but thanks for letting me know.

                I’m not obsessed with The Standard, far from it. I comment on a number of blog issues and blogs, The Standard being just one.

                It’s up to you whether it matters. Talking about it seems to matter to some here, a willingness to debate issues raised rather than revert to the same old is not a strong point.

                [lprent: Because it was merely a set of tweets on a topic. r0b didn’t write them. He didn’t even comment on them. Only a dumbarse like you could have considered that they were anything that should have been put into a post apart from “Notices and Features”.

                I haven’t noticed you actually dealing with anything that was actually in the tweets. You appear to have only considered that there was some kind of odd conspiracy. Perhaps you should take your own advice, deal with the content of the post, and stop wasting my time. ]

            • McFlock 3.3.2.1.2.3
              22 November 2014 at 10:21 pm

              Now he starts fact-checking. 🙄

    • Lanthanide 3.4
      22 November 2014 at 1:21 pm

      Really PG?

      These things used to be posted under “The Standard”, I (and a few others) pointed out that it would be better if “The Standard” didn’t publish anything, since it’s simply a piece of computer hardware. Lynn changed it to Notices and Features approx 12 months ago.

      Anything under Notices and Features is generally posted verbatim from a 3rd party source with links to that source, and very occasionally might have a clarifying / additional comment from an author, but otherwise contains no opinion or analysis.

    • Clean_power 3.5
      22 November 2014 at 4:14 pm

      Welcome back, Mr George.

  4. chris73 4
    22 November 2014 at 12:21 pm

    Oh dear, how sad, never mind

  5. Glen Jacobs 5
    22 November 2014 at 12:38 pm

    When and why did Pete George get his ban lifted?

    Whilst I find his pathetic ways somewhat entertaining, I hope whoever was behind the amnesty does realise he’s just going to fuck the forum again

    [lprent: He doesn’t have one at present. They are generally time limited. His last one expired quite a while ago.

    PG tends to ban himself to the great delight of most readers. I guess it helps with his usual senile victim routine as he routinely lies about why he got banned. But I believe he has recently been getting banned from other sites recently. So he is back to get his jollies here. ]

    • Pete George 5.1
      22 November 2014 at 5:47 pm

      lprent – I don’t believe I lie about bans. You keep claiming this, incorrectly. Perhaps it’s you who is getting senile.

      Glen Jacobs – you can try and talk up a ban but I think but lprent decides for himself when he does it. I don’t intend to “fuck the forum again”, that’s usually orchestrated by regulars well practised at it. But hey, that’s what some people seem to think makes a good blog here.

      [lprent: You routinely do. I always give the reason why I ban someone based on what is in the policy. That could be anything from questioning the site rules, to diverting off a posts topic, to simply appearing to waste moderators time by initiating boring flamewars that are invariably about you and your behaviour.

      Rather than deal with that and just modifying your own behavior, you invariably choose to interpret that as some kind of hidden agenda or conspiracy rather than dealing with what is said. What you appear to not accept is that it is your own behaviour on our site that triggers the warnings and bans. Your behaviour in this post is absolutely characteristic. Your interpretation of our clear rules about the use of notices and features was just outright wrong and quite indefensible. But you managed to divert a large portion of the comments on the post completely off topic.

      You also appear to be oblivious to your usual behaviour after you get a ban which is the basis of why I say that you routinely lie about it. Felix in a comment in this marathon comment scan (I’m currently on page 12 of 50 comments heading back to about 2pm yesterday) gave a pretty concise description of your usual behaviour.

      If you’d just content yourself with actually addressing the topics of the post or the derived debate, and not making whole swathes of commentary being about you, it’d save me a whole lot of time. It’d take a while before the automatic responses by other commenters die down, but just ignore them or confine your responses to your own blog and stick to topics raised, and eventually you’d wind up commenting without the collective “FFS it is PG self-indulgently wanking again” response that you currently get.

      Commenters automatically respond to you going off topic because they have seen you use your usual tactics far too many times. Instead of writing when you have something relevant to say, you seem to have an obsession with simply typing crap and asserting it is fact – because you think so. That isn’t debate. Then you complain that people don’t like it, disagree with you, and tell you why. That is the behaviour of someone who has a narcissistic need to be the centre of attention – not someone who is actually interested in discussion and debate.

      BTW: If I have to ban you again, I have already decided that the date will be November 21 2017. I really don’t have time for this type of shit again. ]

      • weka 5.1.1
        22 November 2014 at 6:08 pm

        “I don’t believe I lie about bans”

        lolz at the senility of that statement.

        Shall we start a book on how long it takes for Pete to either get a ban, or self-ban? His comments seem to be mostly about criticising ts, so I’m guessing he either goes quickly, or he’s trying out a new strategy for how long he can do this and stay just under the bannable level of offense.

        • felix 5.1.1.1
          22 November 2014 at 6:16 pm

          We all know how it ends.

          Can’t someone just ban him in advance and be done with the stupid prick?

        • Pete George 5.1.1.2
          22 November 2014 at 6:19 pm

          I’ve no idea what ” just under the bannable level of offense” is weka. But I do know that when the usual suspects start to swarm it raises the prospects.

          Thanks. And to you too felix. We know how it’s done, don’t we.

          • felix 5.1.1.2.1
            22 November 2014 at 7:00 pm

            Yes we do. It starts with you raising stupid irrelevant points that no-one gives a fuck about (“omfg someone reposted a tweet”),

            then you blow it out out of all proportion (have you written an OUTRAGED STANDARD DISGRACE post on your website about it yet?),

            then you use this pretend issue to shoehorn your big issue (“why doesn’t the world take more notice of Pete George?”) into every thread on this site until one after another everyone here gets sick of you and, in one way or another tells you to fuck off,

            and then you have a tanty because the web isn’t recognising your god-given right to post whatever you want on every site you stumble across as if you owned it,

            and eventually a mod decides they’ve had enough of your passive-aggressive bullshit and bans you for something that, on its own, probably doesn’t rate as much of an offense without the context of the months of trooling that led to it,

            and then you fuck off back to your site to write a martyrdom post that no-one except Lynn will ever read and spend the next three weeks reposting it at kiwiblog and whaleoil and having a big cry about the unfairness of it all.

            Yes Pete, we know exactly how it works. And we know it’s going to work exactly the same this time too. Seriously, it would save everyone so much trouble if you just fucked off and started working on your martyrdom post now.

            • Pete George 5.1.1.2.1.1
              22 November 2014 at 7:11 pm

              You’re as funny as ever felix.

              Wouldn’t the logical approach to comments or commenters “that no-one gives a fuck about” be to ignore them? /rhetorical

              • felix …
                22 November 2014 at 7:50 pm

                Yes Pete, the logical approach to things no-one gives a fuck about is to ignore them.

                Your approach, however, is to take those things that no-one gives a fuck about, and mix them in a blender with your dog-shit of a personality, and spray the resulting filth all over this site,

                and you’ll be doing it all day, every day, until someone bans you,

                because that’s how it works.

                • Pete George …
                  22 November 2014 at 8:08 pm

                  I don’t intend to comment here anywhere near all day every day. I have a lot of other things I usually prefer to do, unlike you it seems, destined it seems to grump it out here trying to chase anyone away you don’t approve of.

                  • Tracey …
                    22 November 2014 at 8:14 pm

                    How about that laila harre leaving the internet party. I wonder if the party will end now.

                    Sorry pete for diverting your thread. It was just on my mind for some reason.

                    • Pete George …
                      22 November 2014 at 8:18 pm

                      I’m not surprised she is leaving. She had severely compromised her integrity, she might be hoping that dropping out for a while will mean others will forget about it.

                      And there’s little the Internet Party can achieve over the next three years, especially with Dotcom distracted by his legal issues that seem to be deteriorating for him.

                      I think it’s unlikely IP will survive this – which is a bit of a shame, some of their ideas where worthwhile.

                      [lprent: Ah – a comment from you that is finally on topic (rather than some odd conspiracy theory about this site). See I knew you could if you only tried…. *encouragement* ]

                    • karol …
                      22 November 2014 at 9:24 pm

                      I hardly think Harre is “dropping out”. She seems to be already launching into a new, and very left, initiative – maybe one that has benefited from her experience of the IMP roadshows.

                  • felix …
                    22 November 2014 at 9:19 pm

                    “I don’t intend to comment here anywhere near all day every day.”

                    No-one intends that you do. But that hasn’t stopped you yet.

                    Why don’t you comment on whaleoil instead? Cameron’s getting desperate for attention, he could do with the page views.

            • Tracey 5.1.1.2.1.2
              22 November 2014 at 7:18 pm

              You mean the title of the thread wasnt

              What is pete george thinking about today?

            • Stephanie Rodgers 5.1.1.2.1.3
              22 November 2014 at 8:14 pm

              have you written an OUTRAGED STANDARD DISGRACE post on your website about it yet?

              Spoiler alert: he totally did, complete with pearl-clutching about the ~misuse~ of the “notices and features” handle.

              [lprent: Two so far (midday sunday). He is a complete fool. And you have to wonder about someone who seems to find delight only in inventing motivations for others that are so strange. He must have a hell of lot more spare time than I do. ]

        • Tracey 5.1.1.3
          22 November 2014 at 7:16 pm

          And the thread has deteriorated to be about pg, not the topic of the post.

          ITS ALL ABOUT PETE

          And when its not

          ITS ALL ABOUT JOSIE

  6. Draco T Bastard 6
    22 November 2014 at 1:00 pm

    Laila has a post up on TDB: Campaign reflection, Laila Harré reaching out for radical minds

    To a person, the Internet Party and MANA crews were uncompromisingly focused on a change of government.
    To achieve that, there were always at least three things every “change of government party” had to do to be a credible alternative: (a) supporting Cunliffe; (b) building acceptance that a Parliamentary majority did not have to look like a single sun (National) with a few planets rotating around it; and (c) demonstrating respect for each other and sharing constructive feedback.
    The spin that Labour and Green leaders have put on the impact of Internet MANA needs to be critically analysed. It was only the momentum created by the deal and then the growth of support during the road show that put Labour and the Greens within winning distance of government. We took the fight to Key in a way that they were not prepared to do, and for a while it paid off.
    Later in the campaign our momentum fell off dramatically. Our own political mismanagement weakened our ability to respond to a full attack by the right, and the capitulation of other change the government parties to that narrative.

  7. millsy 7
    22 November 2014 at 1:10 pm

    It would be sad if the internet party did fold up. Imagine if Social Credit folded after it first came on the scene in 1954, or Values shut up shop in 1972?

    It had a genuine vision for the transformation of this country, placing an emphasis on technology to make people people’s lives better.

    Looking back, the 2 mistakes the party made were not kicking Dotcom upstairs, and hooking up with Mana. The alliance with Mana probably turned off a lot of voters who would have voted for the Internet Party, (and probably turned a lot of people off Mana as well).

    It may suprise some people on here, but it was the first political party I joined, and from the looks of it, probably the only.

    RIP Internet Party — the greatest “what might have been” of NZ politics.

    • ghostwhowalksnz 7.1
      22 November 2014 at 1:27 pm

      KDC treated it like a startup business, which he was good at, but at politics he was atrocious.
      Didnt do any basic reaserch on what voters would think of a ‘internet party’.

      Would have been better to fund just Mana

    • Chooky 7.2
      22 November 2014 at 3:54 pm

      @ millsy…+100…”It had a genuine vision for the transformation of this country, placing an emphasis on technology to make people people’s lives better.”

      i also voted for Mana/Int and the combination of Mana and Internet Party did not put me off….or I suspect many others…..it was a brilliant conception!

      …but the right wing media forces unleashed and railed against it were just too much! ( and Labour and Nactional and NZF actively worked to oust Hone)

      • srylands 7.2.1
        22 November 2014 at 9:38 pm

        “it was a brilliant conception!”

        No it was batshit crazy. If it was a brilliant conception they would not have crashed and burned, would they?

        and there are no “right wing media forces” in New Zealand. At all. In any shape or form.

        The Economist put it like this:

        “.. securing an increased majority over its first and second terms, as National did on Saturday, is astounding.”

        That was no small part due to Internet-Mana.

        Internet-Mana will go down in history as the cluster fuck of the decade. That you see it as “brilliant” says a lot.

        • felix 7.2.1.1
          22 November 2014 at 9:54 pm

          “and there are no “right wing media forces” in New Zealand. At all. In any shape or form.”

          Except all of the newspapers, and all of the radio stations, and all of the tv news, and most of the blogs.

        • Chooky 7.2.1.2
          23 November 2014 at 8:55 am

          @ srylands -100 …..well you would say that wouldn’t you ? …doesnt make your right wing spin true though!

  8. Cave Johnson 8
    22 November 2014 at 1:16 pm

    And the winner is… Sue Bradford : )
    .
    To re-post my post from when IMP was originally announced…
    “Laila has a vehicle. KDC has a weapon. Hone has funding. Sue has principles.”
    .
    I wanted to see Laila in parliament but they lost three votes in our household when it looked like Hone would lose his electorate, and also DC worked hard to earn my vote as well and I was pleased to be able to give it to him.

    • weka 8.1
      22 November 2014 at 1:39 pm

      “And the winner is… Sue Bradford”

      Which makes her just another ego in politics.

      • karol 8.1.1
        22 November 2014 at 3:45 pm

        Really? She stated her position and dissatisfaction when Mana linked with the IP. Then she withdrew, and as far as I’m aware, didn’t comment further during the election. She was not in any contest, so she won nothing.

        It just seems to me that some of us will never be forgiven for having a different view on IMP than that of its supporters. Hardly very democratic.

        • weka 8.1.1.1
          22 November 2014 at 3:50 pm

          my comment was a response to Cave thinking it was about winners and losers and that Bradford was a winner. That’s ego (irony alert re criticisms of KDC). But it was more in reference to Cave than Sue.

          • Cave Johnson 8.1.1.1.1
            22 November 2014 at 3:58 pm

            Some folks have trouble detecting light-hearted comments even when emoticons are used…

            • weka 8.1.1.1.1.1
              22 November 2014 at 4:02 pm

              some people like to pass off their highly politicised comments as a joke as if that somehow makes a difference.

        • Mark 8.1.1.2
          22 November 2014 at 7:25 pm

          That was incredibly helpful to the left wasn’t it. All we got after that was the smear machine from Slater saying what an intelligent and insightful person Sue was and how she had seen through the farce that was the Internet /Mana party.
          Really helpful to the left, especially when Key was slowing sliding to 45% and lower at the time. If high profile people on the left can’t say anything positive about their fellow travellers on the left then they should shut the fuck up.

          • karol 8.1.1.2.1
            22 November 2014 at 8:53 pm

            Slater will do what Slater does. It seems, from many IMP supporters, no-one on the left was allowed to criticise the hook up. it seemed like Harawira made the decision, and he pushed on to get everyone else on board.

            The damage was more from the mixed messages about values and principles sent by the hook-up. The right would have targeted that, without without Bradford’s distension.

            Once Bradford left the Mana Party, she refrained from further public comment (as far as I’m aware).

            According to Laila Harre, the IMP increased support after that, and it was their failure to predict the kinds of repercussions that would come from the hook-up, and KDC’s high profile involvement with it. Harre pretty much says that. I am surprised that political experienced people like Harawira & Harre, had not thought through all the kinds of attacks they would get from the right.

            The whole hook-up was done too hastily, without a enough planning, careful thinking and preparation.

            Bradford was just a bit player in it all – and still many IMP people are scapegoating her for taking a principled stand.

            • marty mars 8.1.1.2.1.1
              22 November 2014 at 9:06 pm

              I thought a lot of people including lefties and Mana supporters criticised it. I did initially then decided to give it a go because of the potential upside for the left. I don’t think any additional planning, thinking or preparation would have helped much – at least for the last election. The fact is it didn’t work, it didn’t galvanise the disaffected to vote for it and it did give opponents from every part of the political spectrum a bone to gnaw away at. I admire Sue but her principled stand was equivalent to others principled stands to support IMP – no more or less imo.

              • karol …
                22 November 2014 at 9:19 pm

                Pretty much agree with that, mm.

                I admire Sue but her principled stand was equivalent to others principled stands to support IMP – no more or less imo.

                Yep. I’m just responding to the continued demonisation of Bradford.

                • marty mars …
                  22 November 2014 at 9:38 pm

                  “Yep. I’m just responding to the continued demonisation of Bradford.”

                  Yes and I support you in combating that.

                  I do think we differ in the – should have taken more time/thought etc re IMP. It imo had to be a quick fizz up to generate interest, capture imaginations and inspire actions to make change – such a pity it didn’t work but I’d say it had more potential to work that way.

                  For me KDC was the least trustworthy of IMP but I do think he was positively influenced by hanging around with Mana for a while. It is a fair point that I am sympathetic with that if he had shut up and taken a back seat more traction would have build – we’ll never really know now.

          • greywarshark 8.1.1.2.2
            23 November 2014 at 9:20 pm

            @ Mark
            I felt that Sue would have been better to be less mouthy about her wonderful ideals. We don’t need saints in politics, we do need principled and pragmatic people. Sue holds herself up as an ‘untouchable girl’ and there is only one way to go, her way.

        • alwyn 8.1.1.3
          23 November 2014 at 4:48 pm

          Why should you be forgiven for holding views about a party that disagree with its supporters?
          You aren’t, apparently a member so why should you care?
          Perhaps I should propose that members of the Labour Party should accept my views about the party, without complaining about them.
          Green Party supporters should say “hear hear” when I am rude about the actions or words of Green Party MPs.
          Well I don’t see why they should and I don’t see why you should be forgiven either. I think that politeness, and a willingness to debate are desirable but forgiving a different view of a party to its members doesn’t need or deserve “forgiveness”

          • lprent 8.1.1.3.1
            23 November 2014 at 5:25 pm

            I’m not much into the politeness myself. But I just finished saying essentially the same thing elsewhere.

            Critical examination of everything is something that needs to be done for all parties and not just by their members.

    • Tracey 8.2
      22 November 2014 at 1:49 pm

      what did she win again… 3 more years of nact mp and the hairdo.

  9. Tracey 9
    22 November 2014 at 1:48 pm

    i hope she stays around politics.

    gower is grating

    of all things to write thats what PG thought of?

    🙄

  10. Clemgeopin 10
    22 November 2014 at 1:58 pm

    I think the internet party and the Mana party should continue either as IMP or separately. I prefer it as IMP…a left wing pro poor party for social justice and pro technology party for advancement of modern technology and thus the country.

    Labour should be centre and centre left in social and economic issues. Support bulk of the pragmatic environmental policies of the Greens and conservative policies of NZF…..and say so publicly, indicating which ones.

    Greens concentrate on environmental issues, left, right and centre. Get out of social issues. Leave that to IMP and Labour. Greens should support the social policies of IMP and Labour.

    NZF concentrate on conservative policies independently as they do now.

    There needs to be electorate seat arrangements in a few crucial/marginal electorates between these four parties, or at least between Labour, Greens and IMP.

    This way, Internet-Mana, Labour, the Greens and NZF will cover most of the bell curve of voters in the left half of the curve (IMP and Labour) as well as a proportion of the right of centre area (Greens and NZF).

    There you have it!:
    Labour led coalition under Little as PM : 55% (or 60%) plus
    National, ACT, Maori, Cons, Dunne under Key or Bennett=45% (or 40%) minus.

    • weka 10.1
      22 November 2014 at 2:11 pm

      The GP will never get out of social justice issues, because the links between social justice and the environment are inseparable. Unless you can get to grips with this, your vision of how the left can work is redundant.

      All left wing parties should be addressing social and environmental issues.

      • Clemgeopin 10.1.1
        22 November 2014 at 2:30 pm

        If the Greens are too thick to understand the damage they do to Labour and possibly IMP (and thus the left’s success by scaring away potential centrist/centre right voters) by their overlapping of left/far leftist social policies, they and the left will be confined to remain under 50% of the vote against National, ACT, Maori and Conservatives. The Greens have their 6 to 10% traditional left vote in the bag anyway. They should try to grow that from the centre and right of centre voters, rather than cannibalise the Labour and IMP votes which is just stupid.

        • weka 10.1.1.1
          22 November 2014 at 2:54 pm

          What does it matter if votes move between Labour and the GP? It won’t affect the outcome of an election.

          Why is it ok for IMP to take votes from L or the GP, but not for the GP?

          • Clemgeopin 10.1.1.1.1
            22 November 2014 at 3:26 pm

            That is not my worry or my point. You have misinterpreted or misunderstood my post.

            • weka 10.1.1.1.1.1
              22 November 2014 at 3:42 pm

              ok, so you want the GP to give up some of the left vote so Labour can have it?

              • Clemgeopin …
                22 November 2014 at 6:04 pm

                No. They HAVE the 6% to 10% traditional (30 years?) vote already, most, if not all of it is left vote anyway. They need to grow further from the blue side, rather than just rearrange the deck chairs from the left further and end up sinking the entire left as usual.

                • weka …
                  22 November 2014 at 6:11 pm

                  This has been explained to you ad nauseum Clem. If the GP goes blue they die.

                  re their %

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Party_of_Aotearoa_New_Zealand#Parliament

                  • Clemgeopin …
                    22 November 2014 at 8:45 pm

                    I am not saying they should go blue, but they should attract more of the blue green votes through their environmental policies which are dear to most people and most of New Zealand, including the blue voters.

                    The Greens should refocus primarily on environmental issues and a few other non overlapping social/economic issues: [from your link]

                    Mining of national parks,
                    Fresh water,
                    Climate change,
                    Peak oil
                    The release of genetically engineered organisms.
                    Sustainability.
                    support of human rights,
                    Against military operations.
                    Warn homes etc

                    Modify their tax, income tax and carbon tax policies (or better still, endorse Labour’s moderate taxes, housing and economic policies)

                    Leave far left issues such as for example, feeding the children, free tertiary education, excess taxes etc for Mana (or IMP).

                    It is smarter to be able to form a government to collectively implement various policies rather than stupidly feel happy and smug stealing each others policies and remain in opposition.

                    • weka …
                      22 November 2014 at 10:37 pm

                      The GP is inherently left. It’s environmental polices won’t appeal to blue voters unless they make them more right wing. If they do that, they will lose their core values.

                      The GP want change not power for its own sake. They’ve developed their own policies, haven’t been stealing anything from Labour. Labour should be going after the non-vote, not chasing GP votes or expecting the GP to suppress its growth.

            • karol 10.1.1.1.1.2
              22 November 2014 at 3:50 pm

              Still on your anti-GP campaign?

              How many times do we need to point out what the GP’s founding principles are?

              I’m quite happy for Mana and IP to continue separately. if IMP continue in a linkage, I’d prefer if KDC took a back seat. IMO, it was his presence that doomed the whole enterprise, and the result is Mana with no MP this term. IMP stimulated a lot of resistance to Hone, which I doubt would have been as intense if Mana had not joined with the IP.

              • weka …
                22 November 2014 at 3:53 pm

                “IMO, it was his presence that doomed the whole enterprise,”

                Did you see Harre on the Nation? Summary of a bit here http://thestandard.org.nz/end-of-the-internet-party/#comment-929110

                ie KDC’s presence coincided with an increase in party support.

                • karol …
                  22 November 2014 at 4:11 pm

                  Thanks. But your link just comes to your comment here.

                  I read the Daily Blog post by Harre. I asked by how much did that support rise, and would it ever have been maintained in the election vote?

                  KDC’s presence coincided with an increase in party support.

                  But how long would that ever have been maintained – more than a sugar hit of infotainment style attention-getting?

                  In her TDB post, Harre then went on to say:

                  Later in the campaign our momentum fell off dramatically. Our own political mismanagement weakened our ability to respond to a full attack by the right, and the capitulation of other change the government parties to that narrative.

                  This was always likely to have happened given the role KDC played – and the way he took his fight personally to Key.

                  I think that KDC jumpred into the whole IP thing with enthusiasms, which seems to have been infectious for some. But it was all done too hastily, and with little thought for the likely repercussions.

                  I much prefer the original Mana approach, which was to build flaxroots support over time. It has more potential for sustained and growing momentum.

                  • weka …
                    22 November 2014 at 4:18 pm

                    So let’s say that KDC has stayed in the background.

                    No road shows would have meant no or less mobilising of the core people they wanted to reach.

                    But had IMP reached people and gotten support, do you really think the full force of the right’s trash machine wouldn’t have targeted them?

                    What’s the choice there? Relative obscurity, or making headway and getting taken to with a stick?

                    I’m in two minds about the flax roots thing (I think both approaches are valid), but I think it’s highly likely that had the IP not existed that the attack on Mana would still have happened and Harawira would still have lost his seat.

                    (yes, my link was to my summary below of Harre’s interview with Gower)

                    • karol …
                      22 November 2014 at 4:24 pm

                      Thanks. re the link.

                      Small parties always do have difficulty sustaining their support in the long term.

                      You choices really show that the last minute IMP initiative really was not that much more likely to have achieved either way.

                      A better option would for KDC to have out his money behind Mana, gave them his blessing, and left them to it. Or to have jst stayed out of politics altogether.

                      The road shows are always a good idea. But they need to happen well before an election.

                      I am more positive about the Harre sister’s road initiative – good time to start building at the start of an electoral term.

                    • weka …
                      22 November 2014 at 5:28 pm

                      Why would KDC give his money to Mana? He wanted an internet party, and Mana were never going to appeal to the people he wanted to reach.

                      “You choices really show that the last minute IMP initiative really was not that much more likely to have achieved either way.”

                      I don’t think so. Mana are a flax roots, time taken to build, party.

                      The big issues I see were Labour and to a lesser extent the GP not being open to working with them (why bother voting for a left wing govt that wasn’t going to happen?).

                      The bungling of the big event the week before the election. Even if Greenwald didn’t want to be associated with the Warners letter thing, the IP should have front footed this and given everyone notice that there’d been a change of plan for the event. That they didn’t signaled an appalling misjudgement on their part.

                      Some, but not all, of KDC’s actions. I thought the road shows were great. How amazing to see the range of people turning up to those (and it belies what conservative lefties, including Little this morning, say when they claim that ‘NZ’ didn’t want or trust KDC. The IP wasn’t trying to convince NZ, they were speaking to a small, unrepresented part of the population. It’s ridiculous for middle class commentators to claim KDC was wrong for NZ just because they didn’t like or understand him. I don’t mean you btw, am thinking of Little, Norman, some of the bloggers).

                      Most of what people were anti was what they saw in the MSM, with all the spin that entails. Conservative lefties I talked to could see past the MSM projection to the actual policies and strategies of IP (these were people who get almost all their political news from the MSM). I guess there was poor judgement there from Harre, KDC, and Corkery in not pre-empting this.

                      The thing that stands out from all of that for me is how many people actually believe that the people that the IP was reaching out to don’t deserve represenation. Or Mana for that matter. I’m not surprised to see that attitude from the likes of Winston Peters, or the neoliberal Labourites like Josie Pagani, but have been surprised to see just now many more left wing people believe it too (again, not referring to you).

                      tl;dr, I think that the failure of the left this year was a mix of complex reasons, and like Labour and the GP, IMP weren’t prepared for the full effect of the attack machine. I would rate the unwillingness of L/GP to work co-operatively as one of the most crucial factors.

                    • Clemgeopin …
                      22 November 2014 at 5:43 pm

                      @weka.
                      Very good points. I agree!

                    • weka …
                      22 November 2014 at 5:56 pm

                      @ Clem 🙂

                    • Clemgeopin …
                      22 November 2014 at 7:42 pm

                      @weka. Not all, but with most of what you said.

                      For example, I don’t agree with your view, ‘I would rate the unwillingness of L/GP to work co-operatively as one of the most crucial factors’. Labour gave enough indication of post election coalition, including cabinet positions. I think even that was too much of a give away before the election. Any greater embrace than that would have diminished Labour vote still more.

                      I am OK with electoral seat adjustments between Labour, IMP and the Greens, and perhaps even NZF, in order not to waste the opposition votes stupidly and thus indirectly benefiting the RW rouges.

                      I am also OK with advance notification prior to election by Labour broadly indicating which of the policies/principles of the other parties (The Greens, IMP and NZF) it will support (with or without some modifications) and which it will definitely not support. That seems to be the thinking of Andrew Little going by a recent statement he made. That will clearly differentiate the parties and indicate to the public how to cast their own party votes.

                • Chooky …
                  22 November 2014 at 4:12 pm

                  +100..”KDC’s presence coincided with an increase in party support.”

                  …personally i like Dotcom, ( although I dont know him personally)…he has great guts (lol) and courage ….he is generous, he puts on great political parties, especially for for youth….and great political education shows (eg Grenwald, Snowden, Assange, Amsterdam … NZ has never seen a show like this before !!!)

                  ….and he is brilliant and he has defied the USA Hollywood corporates

                  …most important he also supported Mana with much needed funding

                  Dotcom has bowed out to fight his battles with the Hollywood moguls and monopolists …he is not a quitter

                  …..GO Dotcom! ….and come back and support Mana /Int….again in the future…NZ is the better for having you as a citizen

                  • Chooky …
                    22 November 2014 at 4:52 pm

                    What Kim Dotcom’s international lawyer has to say about the importance of Kim Dotcom’s fight for internet freedom and copyright implications

                    …really Dotcom’s fight is all NZers fight against corporate monopolies control and for intellectual and economic and creative freedom

                    http://www.lawfuel.co.nz/news/1547/kim-dotcoms-guest-star-lawyer

                    “1) Megaupload had an excellent record of compliance with takedown requests, and even went one step further to provide direct access to many content companies for instant takedowns on demand.

                    “2) The U.S. prosecutors are trying out a new legal theory in which civil charges are transposed into criminal charges, including mass seizure of private property without hearings, and the deployment of violence and surveillance despite the absence of any threat. It cannot be repeated enough: there exists no federal criminal statute for secondary copyright infringement.

                    “3)Additionally, it must be recognized that the outcome of this case will play a definitive role in the ongoing struggle between regulation, innovation, and the politics of the Internet.Considering how so many other online services companies work, what, exactly, had Megaupload done differently than other market leaders, such as RapidShare, Dropbox, Google Drive, or even YouTube?

                  • srylands …
                    22 November 2014 at 5:07 pm

                    “NZ is the better for having you as a citizen”

                    Can you provide any evidence that he is a NZ Citizen?

                    He is not a citizen and is most unlikely to ever be granted citizenship.

                    Why a left wing woman like you goes for KDC I have no idea. Is he a vaccine denier?

                    • adam …
                      22 November 2014 at 5:41 pm

                      Need a napkin srylinds?

                      You seem to be dribbling again.

                      That desire to be right, really undermines you as a human being.

                    • Chooky …
                      22 November 2014 at 7:11 pm

                      @srylands ….ok not a “NZ citizen”…but a “permanent resident”…(my mistake…will some NZ woman please fall in love and marry the man!…and make it “NZ citizen” …lol)

                      …but i fail to see what “vaccine denier”…has to do with anything in your argument ….except that you must be getting quite desperate and nasty srylands …maybe you dont like his international lawyer Robert Amsterdam’s arguments ?…i wonder why?….where are your loyalties exactly? … certainly NOT with New Zealanders and their freedoms!

                      “Why a left wing woman like you goes for KDC I have no idea….”…well sorry srylands …i am not the only New Zealand admirer of Kim Dotcom..(.male or female )

                      ….i think Dotcom has a lot to offer New Zealand and New Zealanders by way of entrpreneurship , standing up for your rights against USA Hollywood corporate monopolies and bullies . standing up for the internet freedom…and all the other issues Robert Amsterdam has so eloquently argued for and laid out.

                  • Clemgeopin …
                    22 November 2014 at 5:45 pm

                    Well said! (Note: KDC is not a citizen but a permanent resident)

                  • nadis …
                    22 November 2014 at 7:21 pm

                    i don’t think dotcom wanted an internet party, he wanted a “no extradition” party.

                    Leila Harre was also a problem for the internet party. Not a natural fit – the IP would have been more successful with less focus on hard social justice issues and more on technology/surveillance/innovation/education/R&d. Mana, Greens and labour make sense for HArre, but turning the IP into a hard left social justice party was only ever going to redistribute already left voters without attracting non-left technology minded people.

                    • Chooky …
                      22 November 2014 at 7:34 pm

                      ..actually you are wrong…a lot of young people voted Mana/Internet and they are interested both in computing, internet freedom …and social justice!

                      ….and many of them come from the new under 30s underclass …weighed down with tertiary loans, no prospect of owning a house in artificially inflated house prices by foreign investors , and no security of work thanks to draconian Labour laws under John key Nactional ….interested in social justice issues YES!!!

                      …and how many “non-left technology minded people” are there really?!…maybe you are thinking of David Farrar?…and his ilk…lol

                      Laila Harre was a brilliant leader of the Internet Party …savvy , cool , highly intelligent , a trained lawyer, experienced in political, union and social justice issues.

              • Clemgeopin …
                22 November 2014 at 5:52 pm

                No, not on a anti GP campaign. I like and support many of the Green party environmental issues. I am just trying to put some ‘political’ sense into their narrow counter productive thinking which deprives them of fruitfully growing their vote from the blue corner rather than simply rearranging some votes from the left corner and scare away the blue votes at the same time.

                • nadis …
                  22 November 2014 at 7:49 pm

                  Chooky – if you define “a lot of people” as 1.2% then you have very low standards. I believe there are enough homes on the left for all of those you refer to – the problem is that none of the left parties are successful enough at engaging them. Harre had no credibility as leader of an Internet party when she made cringeworthy statements that showed she was a technological dunce. She would have had plenty of credibility as leader of Mana or even Labour but not a tech party.

                  The only real difference between the Labour party and the IP party was branding. On every policy they were mostly the same.

                • karol …
                  22 November 2014 at 8:11 pm

                  The scare tactics come from the right. It’s calculated to destabalise any left coalition.

                  There has been some slippage to the Greens from Labour as Labour moved away from it’s core commitment to the elast well off. It’s up to Labour to regain the confidence of many of us left voters.

                  Labour and the Greens come to their policies and values from different positions.

                  Labour tends to put economic issues central, and there is a tendency for many to regard other social justice issues (gender, ethnicity, etc) as secondary and “nice to haves”. The Greens have a more holistic approach. They focus on all social justice issues as necessary to an environmentally sustainable society – so issues of ethnicity, gender, sexuality etc, are as important as those based in labour relations.

                  Labour has a strong historical affiliation with unions, which the Greens don’t have. So I think Little as leader does mark a core difference from the Greens.

                  Mana has a lot of the same core values, approaches and policies as Labour historically, with more of an emphasis on social and economic justice for Maori and Pacific people.

                  One of the things for me that slightly differentiates the Greens from Mana and the internet Party, and Labour, is that the GP has less of a conventionally masculine/macho approach – less combative, more focused on a co-operative approach.

            • The Al1en 10.1.1.1.1.3
              22 November 2014 at 5:24 pm

              The greens may well turn some idiot centrist voters away from supporting labour in government, but, in my opinion, way less than mip or solo mana ever would, hence the distancing from them by DC and the successful predicted nat attack line throughout the last election campaign.

              The issue clem clearly has, and for a while, is the greens don’t fit into his little boxes of how politics should be working. Personally I have no issues with MT and RN taking as many labour votes as it possibly can, I mean, which party looks unstable and full of flakes? It’s probably an easier sell for the green party than it is for labour with it’s baggage and splits, so expect that poll reversal to come in the years ahead, then his only worry will be can GR stave off JA for the party top job.

  11. weka 11
    22 November 2014 at 3:38 pm

    Harre to Gower,

    – in the first part of the election campaign where KDC was very active, ie the time of the IP roadshow, support for IMP increased.

    – at that point, the right went into full attack mode on KDC, and used the IMP agreement as the basis for an attack on the left

    – at that point, L and the GP had a choice: join John Key’s narrative, or accept that for the left to form govt it would mean working contructively with other parties.

    – L/GP weren’t responsible for IMP’s downfall, but they played into the right’s narrative and made it more of a problem.

    • karol 11.1
      22 November 2014 at 3:59 pm

      I agree with some of this, but I think it was KDC taking a highly public and visible role with the IP that really was the problem, and ultimately IMP’s downfall.

      Did the IMP support increase by that much?

      KDC always made the IP about him and his desire to bring down John key – he made it seem personal. That set KDC up as a target for the right.

      The Labour and Green Parties were put in a difficult position at short notice. As far as I’m aware, the GP kept some distance from the IMP, but didn’t spend time actively bagging them.

      The Labour Party should never have gone all out for Davis in Te Tai Tokerau – that involved a collusion with the right.

      • Lanthanide 11.1.1
        22 November 2014 at 5:02 pm

        “KDC always made the IP about him and his desire to bring down John key – he made it seem personal. That set KDC up as a target for the right.”

        Which was strange, considering he kept saying he had nothing to do with the day to day running of the party, was just the “visionary” and after donating the money he had nothing to do with it.

        Actions really did not gel with his words, at all.

      • nadis 11.1.2
        22 November 2014 at 7:25 pm

        if labour had given Davis a high list ranking I suspect he would have been less strident in attacking Mana. Classic example of individual incentives outweighing what is best for the team.

  12. Clean_power 12
    22 November 2014 at 4:12 pm

    It was inevitable once the largesse of the German tycoon came to an end.
    Miss Harre can now chalk another failed political party to her long, long list

    • Chooky 12.1
      22 November 2014 at 4:24 pm

      why dont you stick your head in a bucket of iced water?

      [lprent: Why would he want to do that? I can’t see the point in your comment. ]

  13. dale 13
    22 November 2014 at 4:13 pm

    Im still waiting for that email thats gonna take Key down. Some say that it was fake but Harre and Kim wouldn’t take the voters as fools, would they?

    • Tracey 13.1
      22 November 2014 at 4:30 pm

      Warners say it was fake… And why wouldnt they in the two hours it took them to research and reach that conclusion.

      Turns out greenwald and Snowden were right and nsa has people based here. Key said that was wrong, but it wasnt.

      You probably think keys declassified documents proved the point he said they did too. And if you do think that it shows you never actually read them.

      • nadis 13.1.1
        22 November 2014 at 6:11 pm

        There are CIA people based here too, as well as representatives of the British intelligence community, Australians and probably a bunch of others. I think what Key said is that there are no NSA bases here which I am sure is technically true. I would be surprised if there are not NSA staff attached to the US embassy and or seconded to GCSB. But is there an american owned or operated NSA base here – no.

        • Tracey 13.1.1.1
          22 November 2014 at 7:23 pm

          Yeah, cos he had no idea what the crux of the issue was. He could have just clarified

          ” if he means are their nsa operatives working out of nz, then the answer is yes.” but he didnt. Dance on that pin carefully lest you fall and crack an ankle.

          • nadis 13.1.1.1.1
            22 November 2014 at 7:32 pm

            Not justifying it, just explaining how it works. You can bleat on all you like from your “I hate John Key” perspective, but if you want to understand how he gets away with what he does, you should take a step back and at least try to be objective in viewing his modus operandi

    • Jim 13.2
      22 November 2014 at 5:03 pm

      Anyone with half a brain knows it was fake.

      • Tracey 13.2.1
        22 November 2014 at 6:01 pm

        Proof?

        • srylands 13.2.1.1
          22 November 2014 at 6:10 pm

          Of course there is no proof. But it appeared laughable. Turn the question around – are you confident it was genuine? You didn’t cringe with embarrassment on that long awaited day? Anyway it sank without trace, and the voters didn’t buy it. That says a lot.

          • Tracey 13.2.1.1.1
            22 November 2014 at 7:27 pm

            Nope and never said i was sly. Thats the difference, no brain and half a brain above are 100% sure. Thats why you had to answer not them. They ran out of lines.

            Nope didnt cringe. Not a ip voter. I definitely didnt enjoy the prying ministers lying about what HIS documents proved. But you probably only read Div Farrars version rather than the source documents so you are probably lost right now.

          • Clemgeopin 13.2.1.1.2
            22 November 2014 at 8:15 pm

            My understanding of it was that KDC was advised not to reveal it at that stage, but to use it later in his defense in court. But, who knows, may be there is no proof that it is genuine. We can only guess.

        • Murray Rawshark 13.2.1.2
          23 November 2014 at 12:46 am

          The proof is that Jim and SSlands have half a brain between them and they know it’s fake.

      • Tracey 13.2.2
        22 November 2014 at 6:04 pm

        And given you have no brain…?

      • Mark 13.2.3
        22 November 2014 at 7:42 pm

        You then.

      • Clemgeopin 13.2.4
        22 November 2014 at 7:57 pm

        So, all those that say it is fake have half a brain?

      • Shrubbery 13.2.5
        22 November 2014 at 9:38 pm

        Anyone with half a brain knows it is genuine. It simply wasn’t enough of a bombshell to be worth faking.

    • Mark 13.3
      22 November 2014 at 7:40 pm

      No just tossers like you.

  14. Tracey 14
    22 November 2014 at 6:02 pm

    which of pg comments in this thread was on topic? Perhaps his general queries about how the site runs could go to open mike?

  15. nadis 15
    22 November 2014 at 6:07 pm

    Internet party has unpaid bills to a bunch of small contractors – claiming that they will get paid but there is a “funding difficulty” at present. We’ll see.

    • Tracey 15.1
      22 November 2014 at 7:28 pm

      WO or KB?

    • weka 15.2
      22 November 2014 at 7:31 pm

      link please.

      • nadis 15.2.1
        22 November 2014 at 7:34 pm

        Brother in law has a small business that is owed money. Very simple, just ask IP staff to confirm all bills are paid.

        • nadis 15.2.1.1
          22 November 2014 at 7:35 pm

          You must know somebody who works there. I don’t. And I can tell you that if these aren’t paid by 20 Dec you’ll see an application to wind up the IP. IF the money gets paid I’ll be sure to come on here and say so. But its really simple – ask someone who works for the IP to comment.

          • Tracey 15.2.1.1.1
            22 November 2014 at 7:49 pm

            Why would weka know someone who works there? Do all people who vote left know each other?

            Did your brother in law miss all of the rights doomsday warnings about the evil german?

            I genuinely hope they get paid soon. Tell him to go to bay corp if he needs the mobey quickly. Loses a chunk if tgey succeed but jumps him over those just waiting for the bill to be paid. A wind up application will cost several thousand bucks

        • weka 15.2.1.2
          22 November 2014 at 7:39 pm

          Ok, so that’s one small business. How much is owed? How overdue is the bill?

  16. nadis 16
    22 November 2014 at 7:59 pm

    I’m not going to specifically identify. But low 10s of thousands and overdue since before the election. Plus there are several others – i dont know how many but I’d guess low single digits – who are coordinating with each other to maximize pressure.

  17. nadis 17
    22 November 2014 at 8:03 pm

    And Tracey u wasn’t specifically meaning weka. It was a general “you” So far the up has the benefit of the doubt as they say they will pay but bear in mind these invoices are from pre election when the ip was rolling in dough plus previous bills had been settled promptly.

  18. Ecosse_Maidy 18
    22 November 2014 at 9:21 pm

    One party down…Who is next????

  19. The lost sheep 19
    22 November 2014 at 9:33 pm

    So if the National Party bedded up with a rich uber-capitalist donor, that would be a RW 1% conspiracy wouldn’t it?

    But Mana thought their supporters would see it differently.

    FFS. Biggest miscalculation in NZ political history?

  20. Murray Rawshark 20
    23 November 2014 at 12:53 am

    Mana and the IP weren’t responsible for Key being PM again. Labour have to take full responsibility. The way they presented as a disorganised selfish backstabbing rabble was enough to put anyone off. Realising that their unattractiveness would leak votes to the left, they went into attack mode against IMP. They did NAct’s dirty work in the end.

    Yeah, Dotcom should have taken a back seat, but he wasn’t the problem. Even though I never liked the idea of IMP, I never did anything to keep them out of parliament. Labour did that. Oh, I know NAct did too, but that’s their role. Labour didn’t have a clue what its role was.

    • Chooky 20.1
      23 November 2014 at 9:27 am

      MR…+100…Labour was their own undoing and Mana/Ints as well …unfortunately Labour let the entire Left down …including the Greens and NZF

      • tinfoilhat 20.1.1
        23 November 2014 at 3:53 pm

        You are certifiable chooky…………. Labour was the undoing of Mana/Ints.. what rubbish, Mana was doomed from the day that they decided to join forces with Kim dotcoms vanity project.

  21. Clean_power 21
    23 November 2014 at 2:42 pm

    Will Miss Harre return to her roots, the red Greens? Time will tell.

    • tinfoilhat 21.1
      23 November 2014 at 3:54 pm

      I can confidently say she will never be invited back to any position with the green party while any of the current members or organisation is present.

  22. Ad 22
    23 November 2014 at 2:43 pm

    I think some commentators could step back for a second and review Laila’s achievements for more than the last year.

    Her record under the Clark administration was strong despite a narrow portfolio.

    Her contribution to the Green Party’s policy coherence and professionalisation was excellent.

    Her part in the Auckland Transition Authority enabled a groundbreaking and successful organization to emerge out of seven legacy councils undergoing a forced merger.

    (I don’t have sufficient information about her term at the ILO to evaluate it – help).

    And she still had the will and whit to drive a new political party for a change of government (I was no fan of IMP I admit, but that’s not the point).

    There’s plenty of counterfactuals to the last election, which are futile. What she has done is live a full and productive activists’ life, and there’s no sign she’s stopping yet.

    There are too few Laila Harre’s in this world or in New Zealand, so I’m hoping for a good sized comeback.

  23. Jules 23
    23 November 2014 at 7:13 pm

    Feel a bit sorry for Laila Harre. But personally I hope this is the beginning of the end of the Internet Party. KDC is as repugnant as Key. He’s damaged the left and has buried Mana. I knew the minute Hone took the deal he was sunk. How can anyone on the left trust a billionaire who courted ACT first?

  24. Jules 24
    23 November 2014 at 10:03 pm

    Rarely. But not from right-right libertarianism to left wing socialism. And not overnight.

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