GCSB cover-up once in a decade

Written By: - Date published: 7:22 am, December 5th, 2012 - 79 comments
Categories: Spying - Tags:

Remember when Bill English signed a Ministerial Warrant on behalf of John Key in a last-ditch attempt to stop the GCSB’s illegal spying on Kim Dotcom from becoming public? Remember how, laughably, GCSB, Key and English said they didn’t know the spying was illegal when they got the warrant, and the warrant was routine? Did you wonder ‘what’s a Ministerial Warrant?’ I did. I’d never heard of one. Well, the Greens investigated. Now, it turns out there’s only been one issued in at least a decade.

So, this wasn’t just some routine thing that Prime Ministers and Acting Prime Ministers routinely sign from time to time.  This was a power that had probably never been invoked in the experience of any of the officials, let alone the experience of the people meant to be controlling them. I imagine it took the GCSB quite a bit of effort to even work out what a Ministerial Warrant should look like because they had no model to draw on (GCSB says they know none have been issued in at least a decade, but don’t mention knowing of any being issued before that either).

Are we meant to believe that this extraordinary action was completed by simply passing a piece of paper under English’s nose and he didn’t so much as raise an eyebrow, let alone inform Key, and that the GCSB staff didn’t feel compelled, in the absence of such pro-activity by English to explain to him and Key what the Warrant was and why it was needed?

And, doesn’t this just make you ask again, what is so special about the Dotcom case? Why the armed raid? Why was GCSB involved at all? Why did everyone choose to ignore the obvious illegality of their involvement? Why did Key display a remarkable lack of interest about the wealthiest person in his electorate? Why did the GCSB dig up a power that no-one can recall being used to try to suppress involvement that they claim they thought was legal at that time? Why did English and Key turn as little attention as possible to all this?

Why?

What’s really going on?

79 comments on “GCSB cover-up once in a decade ”

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  1. Jenny 1
    5 December 2012 at 7:41 am

    It can now be revealed what the mysterious US spy plane’s mission was in Wellington.

    It was to conduct a rendition of David Shearer and Russel Norman and replace them with Texan dopplegangers.

  2. muzza 2
    5 December 2012 at 8:06 am

    http://tvnz.co.nz/politics-news/pm-confirms-spies-met-in-wellington-5259855

    http://wellington.scoop.co.nz/?p=48349

    Wellington has long been a hotbed of spook activity..

    Probably unrelated but….

    Anything to do with the girl who *fell* from the IA building….

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10834384

    • karol 2.1
      5 December 2012 at 8:28 am

      Hmmm… mysterious and weird.  Why is Sir Peter bothering with Hobbit films and the related branding of Wellington as Middle-earth.

      He could do movies much more reflective of the double life of Wellington: maybe one called The Ms Bourne Identity …? 

      Also this statement from the PM is kinda weird:

      “I don’t track every official that comes to New Zealand. People come all the time. Some come on planes, some don’t…I don’t bother going to ask who’s on those particular planes.”

       
      If not by plane, then how….?

      • leftriteleft 2.1.1
        5 December 2012 at 8:43 am

        That sort of statement from Dear Leader just shows that mouth goes into gear before the brain (oops, does he have a brain).

      • muzza 2.1.2
        5 December 2012 at 8:53 am

        Indeed Karol, it has long been suggested that NZ, like many other countries is controlled by the intelligence forces afrom various regions, and I would suggest that is getting harder to argue against all the time.

        JK’s comment is simply that of a man who is so totally befuddled by the orders now, he can’t even have a coherent sentence contructed for him by the PR team to regurgitate.

        So far as Peter Jackson is concerned, and his allegence with Warners, shows that he is now part of the Hollywood/Military?intelligence programme, which is what Hollywood is. PJ just could not have achieved what he has, without crossing some very serious ethical/moral lines, if he ever had them, and I would contest that his earlier movies made in NZ would illustrate that he was on a different path anyway, and one that Hollywood is built on!

        Why did a young woman *fall* from the IA building, and why has there not been any follow to this? Why then in AKL a few weeks later, did a mother and child *fall* from an Auckland apartment building.. http://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/news/national-news/7765055/Dad-returns-after-woman-and-babys-fatal-fall

        The woman’s husband and baby’s father, who was in the country on business, flew to Auckland this morning from elsewhere in New Zealand.

        Doing what sort of business, like in Wellington Perhaps?

        He is being supported by Auckland-based Mexican Consulate staff

        Supported – Like the israelis after Chch, in other words, he was being kept out of the limelight

        It all stinks very badly, and why are people *falling* out of buildings all over the place!

        In old language, falling off a building was the old classic for….being waxed!

        • McFlock 2.1.2.1
          5 December 2012 at 12:42 pm

          Muzz, these are real people you’re talking about.
                 
          We don’t know the circumstances of either case, but statistically speaking suicide or accident are more likely than homicide. And multifloor buildings provide an efficient mechanism for the first option, but still don’t quite cover up the third.
               
           

          • muzza 2.1.2.1.1
            5 December 2012 at 4:35 pm

            these are real people you’re talking about.

            Yes they are, which is why I have raised it!

            What we do know McFlock is that these both happened some months back now, with SFA additional information.

            Why is a woman *falling* from the Internal Affairs building , and why is she still as yet not publically identified, same goes AFAIK for the Auckland situation!

            Ill check both these out again further later on..

            • GregJ 2.1.2.1.1.1
              5 December 2012 at 6:27 pm

              Muzza – I think McFlock has made a valid point which you should perhaps reflect on. Her name is known to her family, friends and colleagues (both current and former of whom I am one). As there is deemed to be no suspicious circumstances (i.e. not a matter of interest to the police) the death has been referred to the coroner (which was reported in the media). I believe it is not uncommon for the names of people subject to a coroner’s inquiry to not be “publically identified” unless or until an inquest is undertaken. The media may have chosen not to name her for a number of reasons e.g. sensitivity to the family.

              New Zealand is a small country and the degree of separation quite small and there may well be people who read this website who also know who this person was and the circumstances. I know your idle (?) speculation was not malicious (and I don’t think of myself as overly sensitive) but I was surpised to find I was actually a little distressed by your post. Perhaps we should all remember to just pause a second or two before we hit submit?

      • PlanetOrphan 2.1.3
        5 December 2012 at 9:02 am

        Mainly Submarines Karol.

        They are here to check out the specs on those Chinese routers would be my guess.

        No one else had the brains to ask for them when evaluating the encrypted logging features.

      • Rich 2.1.4
        5 December 2012 at 12:45 pm

        I wondered that and assumed that the more low-key US spy uses a submarine as transport.

    • karol 2.2
      5 December 2012 at 12:42 pm

      Maybe the Wellington meet is part of the latest CIA international recruitment drive, as reported in the Guardian at the weekend.  

  3. Bill 3
    5 December 2012 at 9:12 am

    What’s a Ministerial Warrant? Dead easy. One minister scribbles on a piece of paper – ‘it warrant me!’ And another minister signs it. This then provides adequate grounds for cast iron denials.

    • mike 3.1
      5 December 2012 at 1:18 pm

      Is it anything like a ‘Oh fuck no one was supposed to find out about this’ Warrant?

    • Treetop 3.2
      5 December 2012 at 3:23 pm

      Orchestrated distancing does require careful planning and more so when you are head of the GCSB.

  4. BLiP 4
    5 December 2012 at 9:38 am

    .

    Where was John Key at the time this was signed? Off on some hastily-scheduled excuse to scarper at the right time to protect the brand, I’ll bet.

    • deuto 4.1
      5 December 2012 at 9:45 am

      The ministerial certificate was signed by Bill English as acting prime minister in August while Key was in the USA watching his son play baseball.

      • BLiP 4.1.1
        5 December 2012 at 9:57 am

        .

        Ahhh . . . that’s right. It seemed a bit off at the time when John Key said watching sport was more important than attending a commemorative service for Kiwi soldiers killed in action. Now we know why. Watta guy.

      • felix 4.1.2
        5 December 2012 at 10:05 am

        Oh dear, I do hope it was signed on the Monday that Key’s son was playing, or at the very earliest on the preceding Sunday.

        If it were on the extra Thursday, Friday or Saturday that he inexplicably had to leave the country for, causing him to miss the memorial service for the soldiers killed in Afghanistan, then people might start asking awkward questions about why he had to leave the country on a Thursday to catch a Monday baseball game.

    • Peter Martin 4.2
      5 December 2012 at 9:57 am

      Wasn’t it in the US to both do some bizzo and watch his son play sport?…

      • BLiP 4.2.1
        5 December 2012 at 5:27 pm

        .

        Which reminds me, judging from a local media report at the time, looks like John Key just can’t help himself:

        . . . “I’ve been prime minister for four years, and it’s really 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year” . . . [and] . . . “Baseball also is attracting more government support” he said.. . .

        Never mind the fact that John Key is the Minister of Overseas Holidays, Baseball New Zealand has never received government funding. Still, two more items for the list:

        – I’m Jewish/Christian/Agnostic

        – 1981

        – Tranzrail shares

        – Lord Ashcroft

        – National Ltd™ would have sent troops into Iraq

        – Standard & Poors

        – “I didn’t say I want wages to drop”

        – “I won’t raise GST:

        – Capping, not cutting the public service,

        – “North of $50 a week”

        – Privatisation won’t significantly help the economy

        – Wave goodbye to higher taxes, not your loved ones

        – “I never offered Brash a diplomatic job in London”

        – Kiwisaver

        – National Ltd™ is not going to radically reorganise the structure of the public sector

        – Tax cuts won’t require additional borrowing

        – National Ltd™ will tender out the government banking contract

        – “We [NZ] have grown for eight of the last nine quarters”

        – “…we will be back in surplus by 2014-15…”

        – “…unemployment is starting to fall…”

        – “…we have created 45,000 jobs…”

        – “…we are likely to create 170,000 jobs in the next 4 years…”

        – “I don’t own a vineyard”

        – The Isreali spy killed in the Christchurch quake had “only one” passport

        – The Police will not need to make savings by losing jobs

        – GCSB x 3 (that we know about)

        – “I voted to keep the drinking age at 20″

        – New Zealand is 100% Pure

        – “I’ve been prime minister for four years, and it’s really 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year”

        – Baseball in New Zealand is attracting more government support

  5. robertguyton 5
    5 December 2012 at 9:51 am

    This is sooo stinky.

  6. deuto 6
    5 December 2012 at 10:12 am

    A good post, Eddie – the questions you ask are all the ones that have been bugging me for months. And good on the Greens for their proactive investigation into how rare these ministerial certificates are/

    I seem to recall that at the time the ministerial certificate became public, both Key and English attempted to brush it off as something very routine and of no particular interest. If my memory is correct, I remember an interview with English where he shrugged his shoulders and stated this precisely but cannot find that interview on a quick search.

    However, I did find this Stuff article which gives the flavour of both Key and English’s spin at the time (and the fact that Key was in the USA watching his son play baseball when English signed the certificate).

    https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/politics/7723279/Police-asked-spies-to-snoop-on-Dotcom&sa=U&ei=Rly-UPqzDavqmAWa9IGQDg&ved=0CBAQFjAD&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNFA6rIww-vBM8Tepti9_W8NeyLjig – I must learn how to short these links!


    …

    The blunder became public yesterday once documents were lodged at the High Court.

    But Key admitted today English was alerted to the involvement of spooks in August, while acting prime minister. Key was in the US watching teenage son Max compete in a baseball tournament.

    The role of the secretive GCSB began to unravel when Dotcom’s lawyer Paul Davison asked for the identity of mystery individuals at a meeting before police and FBI agents raided the entrepreneur’s Coatesville mansion in January.

    After the court hearing English signed a ‘ministerial certificate’ – an administrative document – relating to the court case.

    Neither Key nor English can recall the exact date. But Key left for a ten-day trip on on August 9 – the same day the mysterious group was first revealed in court.

    ”There was a ministerial certificate that was signed. That’s another technical issue, I haven’t actually seen the paper work on that, that would have indicated that the bureau was involved,” Key said this morning.

    ”A ministerial certificate is in relation to information about whether the bureau has acted, because a court, or someone might ask, for that information. So, it’s essentially a suppression order.”
    …

    English said he had signed the certificate but couldn’t recall the detail. He is ”not all concerned” about what the report might uncover.

    ”The issue is being dealt with pro-actively both by the agencies and by the Prime Minister.”

    Asked today if he had signed the indemnity order English said he needed to check documents before he could comment.

    “I’ve been involved in the adminstrative processes related to this thing; but I wouldn’t comment till I’ve had the opportuntiy to go and have a good look, what was involved, what advice was given.”

    • Johan 6.1
      5 December 2012 at 3:00 pm

      English and Key both have faulty memories when it comes to recalling important events. In my opinion I wouldn’t trust either one to run this country. One look at mister double dipper and mister Flannel then you know the NZ citizens are in deep trouble. We need reliable leadership at the helm, especially now with the yanks pushing the TPP.
      Honestly, where are our opposition members in the House, journalists etc. who should be working for our interest, keeping an eye on our democratic way of life.

    • karol 6.3
      5 December 2012 at 5:44 pm

      The warrant was signed by English on August 16 – I reckon that was a  Thursday.

    • PlanetOrphan 6.4
      5 December 2012 at 5:49 pm

      Hi dueto,

      Wrap the links in an <A tag to shorten them
      href=”[actual link]” etc the text you see is in between the a and the /a

  7. RJLC 7
    5 December 2012 at 10:22 am

    What’s really going on?

    Liars telling lies.

    • kea 7.1
      5 December 2012 at 10:47 am

      .. more likely just the wheels of government turning and being subjected to unfamiliar scrutiny by citizen bloggers.

  8. Saarbo 8
    5 December 2012 at 1:23 pm

    This is just un – faaaarken – blievable.

    The Greens are certainly leading the way at the moment. Just about every move that they make is a winner.

    • geoff 8.1
      5 December 2012 at 1:57 pm

      Yep, I’m starting to think it would be best if the Greens wins a majority of the seats in any green/labour alliance.

    • Mary 8.2
      5 December 2012 at 10:18 pm

      Except Metiria’s this morning on RNZ about beneficiaries being helped into jobs. She’s usually pretty good but boy, she sounded like someone from ACT today.

  9. Name (Optional) 9
    5 December 2012 at 2:45 pm

    Once again the Greens show themselves to be the real party of opposition while Labour slumbers waiting for what goes around to come around.

  10. karol 10
    5 December 2012 at 4:11 pm

    NRT on a an OIA, that shows there’s no procedure or checklist for briefing the PM when he returns from overseas – all ad hoc.

  11. AmaKiwi 11
    5 December 2012 at 8:37 pm

    “I imagine it took the GCSB quite a bit of effort to even work out what a Ministerial Warrant should look like because they had no model to draw on.”

    I think you have the process backwards. GCSB was trying to solve a serious problem. Someone said, “I once heard about something called a Ministerial Warrant. Let’s see if we can use that to solve our problem.”

    Next question: What was the problem GCSB was trying to solve? You and I speculate it was about Dotcom’s residency. It might have been something more sinister. Only the people who drew up the warrant know what it was they had to hide.

    The longer they cover it up, the fouler this rotten mess smells.

    I recommend the main stream media ignore this issue because it goes to the question of who is running the country and how illegal are their methods. We wouldn’t that answered honestly, would we?

  12. xtasy 12
    5 December 2012 at 8:40 pm

    The powers at the helm have their way of misleading the public in the most cunning manner.

    Nobody can tell me and convince me that the signing off that English did was done so “routinely” and only, because Key did not happen to be in the country.

    You would have to be an IDIOT to believe that.

    Sadly the situation in NZ is one, where we have a mass brainwashing mainstream media, distracting beyond tolerance, being full with petty occupations, being dishonest and also full of career minded, self serving “journalists”, who do not care about the traditional “4th estate” role anymore.

    It is ME, ME and ME, how can I get attention, hit a nerve, “create” a story and put MYSELF in the focus, what drives most modern reporters and journalists.

    So we get NO news, NO substantial info, we get drivel, distraction and worse.

    In light of this, it is so convenient and easy for a dishonest, highly manipulative government, to take advantage of the status quo and do what they do, and what they are pleased to do.

    The GCSB scandal is treated by media in the same way as the ACC “scandal”, the WINZ “privacy scandal”, the “John Banks scandal”, and so forth.

    Do you not get it? It is only in the news a few days, if that, then it is subsiding, suffocated, distraction happens, and the government is in full gear to deliver other stories, especially about suspected internal goings on in the opposition and so forth, so that the dumb and “corrupt” MSM instantly forget, conveniently forget, what their role should actually be.

    Commerce comes into play, so advertisers who pay the bill, they do NOT want to upset the government, viewers and others, they want it to stay as it is, to get easier for themselves and to sell, sell and sell, so they make BUCKS.

    So re ACC, what happened re the “cheque-book doctors”? Re WINZ, what happened to the “kiosk issues” and also “cheque-book doctor allegations”? Re Banks, what happened to the so convincing and revealing report from police obtained under the O.I.A.? NADA. It all gets swept under the carpet too quickly, and we are all back to square one.

    THE DICTATORSHIP OF BUSINESS AND GOVERNMENT DOMINANT INTERESTS IN NZ IS WORKING!

    • AmaKiwi 12.1
      5 December 2012 at 9:25 pm

      I share you anger about the MSM, but investigative journalism is very expensive. The Washington Post employed Woodward and Bernstein for six months before they got their FIRST story in print and then it was not a blockbuster story, only a strong hint of impropriety.

      It took another six months before Watergate was a national obsession and the Washington Post could reap the rewards by selling tons more advertising. News media only make money selling ads. Facts don’t pay the bills.

      Paying two reporters for 6 months with no results is very expensive. Our media don’t have that kind of money.

      • xtasy 12.1.1
        5 December 2012 at 9:55 pm

        Ha, ha, ha, that is why I am doing it free of charge, so to say.

        You are sadly playing into the hands of the commercial industry, that everything anyone does has to be PAID and thus COSTS.

        This forum, like a few cherished other ones, proves you a bit wrong.

        Ok, most here is not that deeply researched, but some is, more can be done, and I would totally strongly recommend any writer in this forum to invest the time to research, analyse and write stories, that are of substance and can inform, and by the way also CHANGE things!

      • xtasy 12.1.2
        5 December 2012 at 9:58 pm

        I sent heaps of stuff on MSD to the email address of the Standard before, but for some reason, it was not “noticed” (unbelievable), not considered “worth” reading, and/or not worth publishing.

        So that was all totally well researched stuff, but it was NOT picked up.

        Somewhere, somehow, one gives up trying!

        It has now been sent to others, and maybe some of them will take it further. Really “dumb”, I must say.

        • Descendant Of Smith 12.1.2.1
          6 December 2012 at 6:08 am

          Likely it wasn’t picked up because it was focussed seemingly on mainly your own issues and didn’t appear to be well researched.

          A good example would be your continually stating that Health and Disability advisors were there to get people off benefit when I recall at the time people were complaining that they were finding it difficult to get on an Invalids Benefit.

          Then after they were put in place Invalids Benefit numbers went up.

          So the question that occurs to me is how many people did they help get their entitlements versus how many did they remove entitlements for?

          What would an OIA asking about their recommendations show?

          Has that changed over time?

          Are they now saying no to more people than they said yes to?

          A bit of research would be helpful.

          Yep I get it’s part of the government’s big picture to focus strongly on employment as the solution to everything (without creating jobs) and you can see that across areas like education as well – courses must be related to jobs – me personally I’m happy to have art and philosophy and humanities, etc.

          In the end your long postings get about as much of a glance at as Penny’s. Your short ones I still read.

          It’s also evident that sometimes posts I do that I think are worthy of notice don’t get noticed but that’s just the nature of blogging and no different to the nature of normal conversation.

          My profundities are just sometimes others inanities and it’s never all about me. That’s life.

          I’d add however that overall I do enjoy your input here as at times you do make me sit up and challenge my own thinking and look at things from a different perspective. You also often remind us that elsewhere things are much more tougher and the resistance is as well.

          • xtasy 12.1.2.1.1
            6 December 2012 at 7:58 pm

            Sorry you are not informed. I have done extensive research, it was ALL documented, so some of you did fail to realise the worth of it, which is not giving any credit to you ability to research, substantiate and write stories that you do write here on the TS.

            I am having second thoughts now to even bother posting on TS.

            I feel you are not up to the skills needed to dig up stories and dirt, and that is why this government gets away with it does, and also previous Labour covers up the crap they got themselves into. Responses I have (in writing) from Ardern totally prove the dishonesty and lies by Labour.

            So live with that, dear “DSM”!

            Cover your “mates” of the corrupt Labour Party for sure, I have NO trust in you or them!

            They committed enough of lies and other legal breaches I can well document!!!

          • xtasy 12.1.2.1.2
            6 December 2012 at 8:05 pm

            Like I and others have experienced too, O.I.A. requests are increasingly treated with contempt. They are not at all answering questions and try to find every cop out possible, and if they reply it is usually late and vague.

            You are doing your party a disservice to defend the crap we get all the time.

            If you are really there for the poor and working people you would not be so bloody arrogant.

            We are treated like SHIT, that is beneficiaries, and most do not raise anything, because they are too bloody scared to bite the hand that feeds them. That went on under Labour too, and I had first hand experience. You are an arrogant shit person to come across with your know it all attitude!!!

            • Descendant Of Smith 12.1.2.1.2.1
              6 December 2012 at 9:26 pm

              Directly or indirectly you asked for some feedback. I tried to give you some.

              If you’ve followed my postings over the last few years you’ll note that I have kids with disabilities, I’ve been a benefit advocate, a union delegate and had a long involvement in the disability sector either directly or via my wife.

              One of the thing that annoys me is the fear created by some people for others in the disability sector by extreme portrayals of what is going on.

              Individual experience does not make for everyone’s experience.

              There isn’t a single person that my wife or others working with her across a range of physical, intellectual and psychiatric disabilities from severe to moderate that have had any attempt to have their entitlement to an Invalids Benefit removed.

              What has had to be managed is the distress and worry that fear-mongering causes them. It’s bad enough managing the right-wing media attacks on them, abuse thrown at them in the streets, the discrimination they feel on a daily basis and advocate and argue against all that stuff without also having to manage the fears generated by people who purport to support them. Maybe if you had to deal with that on a day to day basis you might have a degree of caution about what you say.

              Yeah it’s a more conservative approach than you would take but it’s just as valid.

              You’ll also note if you read my posts that I’m highly critical of Labour and it’s treatment of beneficiaries and that they lost my support during Helen Clark’s time (after previously having lost my support during the Rogernomics period) in particular for putting the $20-00 power week back on NZS and not on benefits.

              So it’s not my Labour Party at all.

              I’m cool with information – dis-information just pisses me off cause it distracts.

              And yeah my experience isn’t yours and that may simply be the fact that I may be in a different part of the country where things may be done differently – who knows.

              It’s not arrogance it’s just different.

              • xtasy …
                6 December 2012 at 9:39 pm

                Thank you DSS:

                Maybe you gathered your experiences before 2007 or 2008.

                I have reports AND own experiences since then that tell me and them a totally different story.

                WINZ is NOT fair, reasonable and broke the law in many cases.

                Not only did I experience this I got records from others..

                A guy in Southland now gets “special treatment” after issues werre raised.

                You are living in lala land to believe all is fine, it is anything but! But I get it, Labour and Nats work along the same lines. Fuck that!

              • xtasy …
                6 December 2012 at 9:49 pm

                By the way I got first hand info from my GP about a WINZ “designated doctor”, and if I would reveal this here, it would send shivers down the spine of sick and disabled sent to him (who was one of the top doctors used by WINZ)!

                Do not try to intimidate me, I know bloody well what I am talking about, it is also before the Health an d Disability Commissioner now, dumbo!

              • xtasy …
                6 December 2012 at 10:15 pm

                I do authorise Lynn Prentice to disclose my email address to you, and then we can hopefully commmunicate, sort details out and get clear on this.

                I look forward to provide you and others with information that will be over-whelming to prove my argument.

                Sadly so far, you are accommodating the position of Labour and the Nat government!

                • Descendant Of Smith …
                  6 December 2012 at 10:43 pm

                  “Do not try to intimidate me”

                  I don’t even know where that comes from. I was genuinely trying to give some constructive feedback.

                  I seem to get myself occasionally into an argumentative position when I engage with people at a personal level and try and present my own perspective.

                  It’s never my intent to upset and be argumentative.

                  I think I’m learning that that level of engagement isn’t suited to blogs and that I should pull back from doing so.

                  I tend to think conversationally and it doesn’t quite work in in this format. It’s a bit of a learning curve for me.

                  Xtasy if I ever come across you in my normal job and in any of the community roles I’d be more than happy to help you out where I could.

                  In this role I won’t be engaging with anyone via e-mail or otherwise much as I might wish to. As stated I totally respect the wishes of my wife as they stand. Things may change once the kids have all left home.

                  I do genuinely wish you well and I did mean what I said, when I said earlier, that you do stretch my thinking at times as do many others. My fight might be more conservative but I do also fight against many of the same things you are fighting against. There’s more than one way to skin a cat.

              • xtasy …
                6 December 2012 at 11:49 pm

                Sorry, I contemplate suicide every day I wake up, that is where I come from! I do not want to live like I have to, and WINZ have made my life hell over the last couple of years, that is the simple truth. I am sorry, you have your challenges, so it seems they treat you a bit better. Good on you for that.

                • Descendant Of Smith …
                  7 December 2012 at 12:03 am

                  Never think life’s not worth it.

                  My wife has directly prevented two people committing suicide in the last few months and both indirectly and directly we’ve had plenty of experience with suicide over the years.

                  I detest the criticism of governments and predominantly right wing bloggers and commentators of this countries own citizens as bludgers and breeders and the impact that very commentary has on peoples self-esteem and mental state.

                  Governments have a duty of care for all it’s citizens – not just those it decides to like.

                  I posted some time ago the principles behind welfare out of the 1970’s yearbook and quite clearly there is no party at present in NZ of even articulating the inclusiveness and compassion shown in that yearbook description.

                  If anything I’m fortunate for whatever reason to have strong resilience – that’s luck and genetics maybe. Not all my family is as resilient.

            • Bill 12.1.2.1.2.2
              6 December 2012 at 9:42 pm

              xtasy. A wee while back you provided a number of links to WINZ related stuff in comments. I didn’t go through them all, but saw enough to suggest that something quite comprehensive could be made of it all. And I remember suggesting you compile a post around the info you had.

              I’m curious as to whether you wrote anything up or not or, if you did, whether it wasn’t posted as a guest post for some reason or other.

              • xtasy …
                6 December 2012 at 9:52 pm

                It has been “spread” by a few, but given your ignorance, I am fighting an uphill battle, but that is nothing new. I am and so are other right onto it. it was a battle for Gandhi, Martin Luther King and others, so I will NOT give up!!!
                Thanks for taking note though!

              • xtasy …
                6 December 2012 at 10:18 pm

                The fact that you did not go through it proves enough to me to disregard your position.

              • xtasy …
                6 December 2012 at 10:30 pm

                I want YOU to lose your job and income, to LEARN what it is all about to be down the shit hole that many of us are in!
                That is, I fear the lecture needed, that most “middle mellow socialists” need to learn.

                Come and join us, do NOT preach to us, and then we will sit down and talk, matey!

                I had the gutsfull of this “matey” talk by fake NZers. I had the fucking guts full of false pretences and hollow promises.

                Wake UP, mate!

                • karol …
                  6 December 2012 at 10:38 pm

                  Are you talking about Bill losing his job, xtasy?  What makes you think he has one?

                  • xtasy …
                    6 December 2012 at 11:23 pm

                    .
                    Good question! That may qualify him to argue! I suspect he still has, and losing a job is not what I am usually wanting to happen to anyone, but for some it may be a good learning experience, to understand where others are at. Hate to say this!

                    • Descendant Of Smith …
                      6 December 2012 at 11:28 pm

                      You might be interested in a much stronger view of the welfare changes by the greens that Labour under it’s current guise can ever show.

                      http://blog.greens.org.nz/2012/12/06/is-it-all-in-their-heads/

                    • just saying …
                      6 December 2012 at 11:37 pm

                      I can’t be arsed linking, but you may wish to refer (via the search engine) to read Bill’s post on his own experiences as a beneficiary in the process of painting his house. It was written in response to Shearer’s famous “anecdote”.

                      You do yourself no favours when you run off at the mouth xtasy.

                    • xtasy …
                      6 December 2012 at 11:41 pm

                      Descendant of “Smith: What do you bloody mean?

                      Jan Logie is definitely more sympathetic for the needs of disabled and sick than anyone else. I have corresponded with her and Ardern. Ardern is quck to respond, but that is where it is left, no further responses after initial contacts.

                      Logie has worked in the sector and is quite involved. Sadly she has too many other responsibilities in her party, so she can only do so much.

                      She will also be at the WINZ office in Onehunga, Auckland on 11 Dec. 2012.

                      There is more I can say. You should not run down the Greens, as they are quite solid on welfare issues.

                      And for “guest post” writings, I have never been assured that TS is going to write and publish it, given the fact that some have ulterior motives too. It was definitely made availabe, and it was, I presume for political diligence, NOT ever published.

                      So tell me more, I am anything but convinced.

                    • lprent []
                      7 December 2012 at 2:10 am

                      I think you just fail to realize how little time we actually have. I try to scan the incoming contributions at least once every few days. But I have absolutely no time to deal with guest posts that aren’t ready to put up immediately. Those take about 20-30 minutes each to read and setup with graphics, excerpts, categories, tags, and checked links.

                      But I usually work at least 9 (and often closer to 11) hours a day on my paid work both at work which is a solid day of computer programming followed with prep at home. Then I spend a lot of time moderating, read other blogs and news, and sometimes manage to do a few posts. Somewhere in there usually on the weekends I try to stay on top of my profession with it’s rather insane learning curves. Good thing that I don’t have kids. As far as I am aware all of the people handling the contributions queue are all tied up with family or work. Right now I have slightly more time than usual because I don’t have to cook for Lyn – she is off shooting a doco in India.

                      I woke up the other day at 0530 worrying about my project at work, so i cleared the guest posts. By 0800, I’d managed to read 6 guest posts, put two up, and unusually written a email to one person explaining why their posts didn’t make the cut and why. But this was my first opportunity to do it for a week. It isn’t good enough, but it will have to do until my two and a half year project at work ships it’s second product. I can’t live on that little sleep.

                      If you want to see your guest posts up, then write them so they are ready to just publish. that means that they should be less than a 1000 words, have a coherent and argued opinion, and supporting facts and links. Graphics, titles, excerpts, suggested categories and tags would be nice time savers.

                      And please stop moaning about it so I don’t stay up to 0200 explaining the same thing again. Don’t moan – just write the damn things in a form that we can use.

                    • Descendant Of Smith …
                      6 December 2012 at 11:51 pm

                      I was pointing out the greens are taking a much stronger position against the welfare changes.

                      PS The quality of the submissions in making those points is good as well.

                      Labour don’t even raise a whimper against them.

                    • karol …
                      7 December 2012 at 8:14 am

                      xtasy, you are so wrong about, Bill.  He is an unemployed beneficiary and you have criticised him of being in paid work with no understanding of beneficiaries.  See his post here.  

                      You also criticised Descendant of Smith for supporting the Labour Party’s anti-beneficiary line, when if you look at what he said @9.26pm above, he says the opposite.

                      I always think the old Nettiquette idea is the best one to try to follow as much as possible: attack the ideas not the person expressing them. 

                • rosy …
                  6 December 2012 at 11:51 pm

                  Your comments show you’re fed-up xtasy, but you really shouldn’t assume you know a person’s circumstances e.g. http://thestandard.org.nz/to-the-back-teeth-and-beyond/

              • lprent …
                7 December 2012 at 2:20 am

                Bill if you are interested in doing something with it, I will bump it through. It wasn’t suitable as a guest post as it was (mostly length and a lack of focused opinion) from my recollection, and we don’t edit. None of us picked it up as a guest post.

              • xtasy …
                7 December 2012 at 8:32 pm

                Bill:
                May I apologise for wrongfully confusing you with someone else and not remembering your post about living on a benefit some time ago.

                I admit, I lost it last night and should not have thrown around accusations and labeling other commenters unjustifiably.

                Otherwise I am tired of trying and raising issues. I may in future leave it to others to make some efforts, rather than drain my own energy.

          • xtasy 12.1.2.1.3
            6 December 2012 at 8:07 pm

            Let me guess: Your are an arrogant public servant living off our monies!?

            • Descendant Of Smith 12.1.2.1.3.1
              6 December 2012 at 9:38 pm

              I use an alias at my wife’s request.

              Her and the family have enough flack when I’m pushing local issues.

              When I talked to her about commenting on wider more national issues she asked that I do so in this way.

              Selfish maybe but I value my wife and family more than I value commenting on blogs.

              She shouldn’t have to deal with shit cause of me and nor should my kids.

              • xtasy …
                6 December 2012 at 9:41 pm

                I have no issues with your alias. I take issue with what you said before, defending Labour re beneficiaries. I have not understanding and time for that!

              • xtasy …
                7 December 2012 at 1:37 pm

                DOS – I apologise. I had a bad night yesterday and have more on my plate than I sometimes can deal with. So my criticism of you and excessive rant was over the top and in part not justified.

                It just dismays me that some fail to realise what goes on at WINZ and certainly at ACC. It affects people’s lives, and it appears they treated you and your kids better than some others.

                So you can appreciate this, I understand. Yet there are also some appalling stories I have come across.

  13. xtasy 13
    6 December 2012 at 12:20 am

    This is not so “revolutionary” as I had thought TS was!

  14. burt 14
    6 December 2012 at 12:28 am

    So how does Key hang on through this? Didn’t Key once say if he was caught lying he’d resign ? During the campaign trail in 2008, it might have been in a leaders debate ????

    • tracey 14.1
      6 December 2012 at 2:11 pm

      “Didn’t Key once say if he was caught lying he’d resign?”

      It doesn’t count if you were lying when you said it and crossing your fingers.

    • Te Reo Putake 14.2
      6 December 2012 at 2:18 pm

      I think it was “caught not lying”.

  15. karol 15
    6 December 2012 at 11:14 am

    Dotcom has won the right for the GCSB to be considered a defendant, meaning they get access to some GCSB documents.

    …  the Government Communications Security Bureau be officially made a “defendant” in a judicial review of the botched police raid on his mansion in January.

    Forcing the GCSB to be tied to the court action opens it up to court ordered “discovery” – meaning Dotcom’s lawyers can go fishing for documents as they continue to fight extradition to the US to face copyright charges.