Godwin on Godwin

Written By: - Date published: 6:20 am, August 20th, 2017 - 83 comments
Categories: racism, us politics - Tags: , , , ,

Godwin’s Law asserts that,

“As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.”

In the wake of Charlottesville Mike Godwin was approached for his view on usage of the Godwin’s Law. He was asked,

‘Mr. Godwin, pardon the lack of proper introduction, but I believe you to be the man who created the Internet adage now known as “Godwin’s Law”. Sir, I implore you to post a statement on FB, giving your views on the recent white nationalist rally in Charlottesville Virginia. Your adage is invoked so very often to shut down discussions about politics and social issues as soon as any comparisons to Nazism and 1930’s Germany are made, but now that videos have surfaced showing the Nazi flag being waved in the Charlottesville parade… Sir, would you please make a public statement? I’ve noted before that sometimes sheer irony can pierce to the heart of an argument, to deflate the opposing side.’

To which he replied,

By all means, compare these shitheads to the Nazis. Again and again. I’m with you.

Here we are, 6 months on from whether it’s ok to punch a Nazi. Is it ok yet to talk about fascism rising in the US? (probably not but we’re getting there). There’s been some excellent writing since Charlottesville, including stories from the families of people who survived the Nazis in Europe 70 years ago who are talking about the imperative to recognise what is happening and act early.

I especially liked this twitter thread from Linda Tirado, who talks about how punching Nazis is necessary but not sufficient and the people not on the front lines need to step up now too,

 

83 comments on “Godwin on Godwin”

  1. Saw a nice one the other day – photo from landing craft d-day soldiers jumping out. Entitled – anti fascist fighters attack gathering of fascist white supremists.

  2. joe90 2

    Arnie weighs in.

  3. One Anonymous Bloke 3

    Self-identification with Nazism or any of its synonyms is as Lew says about ACT, fighting talk. Bill linked to an essay over on the Lefties thread – quoting Pastor Neimoller.

    Never forget who Nazis come for first: Socialists. Their other victims come later.

    • CoroDale 3.1

      Ummm, Nazis where the National Socialists in war-time Germany. They didn’t “come for” themselves. They first escaped the liberal-capitalist-impulse from the West using Social Credit, their second concern was Bolshevik Stalin to the East, so they took Poland, which was the defensive bridge to Eastern Prussia (Germany). They defended their Social Credit (which the Anglo-Normans feared as it would crush their liberal-capitalist power) by taking half of France. Just facts here dude, I’m not taking any political position with this.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 3.1.1

        I think Neimoller knew a teeny weeny little bit more about it than you. Perhaps you should check.

        Also, it might be worth you reading the article Bill linked to, for context.

        • CoroDale 3.1.1.1

          The body of knowledge you refer to does come from the neo-liberal and free-market team that “won” the war. It would be intellectually naive to think that National Socialism didn’t TRY to achieve some fair and moral goals. The black and white portrayal of WW2 Germany as pure-evil is too simplistic to serve any positive outcomes in today’s political environment.

          • One Anonymous Bloke 3.1.1.1.1

            The black and white portrayal of WW2 Germany as pure-evil is too simplistic

            Good thing I didn’t do that then, isn’t it. Do you understand why “first, they came for the Socialists” yet?

  4. millsy 4

    Hitler himself, admitted that the only way to stop his fledgling movement was to smash it with mercliless violent brutality.

    • CoroDale 4.1

      Compassion is perhaps our strongest political tool. To be fair, post-WW1 Germany was in an economic crisis much worse than NZ’s housing situation. The “do or die” attitude of National Socialism is understandable. The liberal-capitalists where turning Germany into an unemployed whore-house. Obviously catastrophic that it ended in war, and all that war brings with it (from both sides). Note that a strong portion of the liberal-capitalist controlling class, would have been pleased with this war outcome, as a tool to control population and cultural. The cultural austerity in Germany remains visible, to this day (have you ever listened to Schlager? 😉 The holocaust of fire that fell from allied bombers on German cities was of biblical scale. Occupied Germany was forced into a 180 cultural U-turn in a way that is too traumatic to describe. A little compassion for the Nazis could go a long way to finding common ground and peaceful solutions.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 4.1.1

        Compassion

        In the sense of “know thine enemy”, certainly. In the sense of abhoring the creed and loving the people it ensnares, absolutely.

        Just don’t forget that their goal is to exterminate your nice middle-class compassion, along with you if you get in their way. I’ll already have been murdered by then, so I won’t be able to hold your hand.

        • In Vino 4.1.1.1

          The Nazi’s lack of compassion (both at home and in Poland/Russia) rebounded horribly. I think that nowadays, despite minority movements, Germany is the least likely country to repeat the error. People who love to go on about the German Nazis need to look at the less-known history of their own nation.

          • CoroDale 4.1.1.1.1

            Dude, Germany is leading the export war. Turkey released a list of hundreds of German companies directly supporting terror fractions. It’s all smoke and mirrors and Germany is under the capitalist thumb.

            • joe90 4.1.1.1.1.1

              Turkey released a list of hundreds of German companies directly supporting terror fractions

              Do keep up.

              /

              On Friday, Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan denied the existence of the list, saying the reports were “black propaganda” aimed at pressurizing German companies not to invest in Turkey. “You have no power to darken Turkey,” Erdogan said. Turkish Prime Minister Binali Yildirim described media reports as “entirely a lie” and urged Berlin to solve an escalating crisis through dialogue.

              http://www.dw.com/en/turkey-drops-terrorism-claims-against-german-firms/a-39817673

              • CoroDale

                Thanks. But are you sure your source isn’t propaganda 😉 or just the Turkish doing back-flips is more likely. Official or not. The money and weapons used by “terror” soldiers come from the international market sources. Obvious example of German smoke-n-mirrors is being nuclear-weapon-free, but using German companies/money to make atomic weapons in Israel. And American army officially entitled to holds atomic weapons at air-bases in Germany, etc, etc. Nation-state definitions become less meaningful in global market conditions, but the hypocrisy clear.

            • In Vino 4.1.1.1.2.1

              For heaven’s sake, Corodale – all heavily industrialised countries have always been under the capitalist thumb. Russia is not an exception – it is a bloody poor country so big that its industrialised sector was big enough to defeat Hitler’s Germany and rival the USA for some time. But Russia is not heavily industrialised – it is just huge.
              Smoke and mirrors? Keep at it.

              • CoroDale

                Russia have always had an intellectually advanced upper class, capable of non-linear thinking. We have that too, and need to maintain this multi-level thinking here in this political class. Simple geo-political perspectives, twisted by media… At which levels have the US and Soviets militaries always maintained cooperation? Swiss “neutrality”, and the meaning of that power structure? It’s endless bro, and we’ll never really know the detail, but we don’t need to. Official geo-political views lead to “divide and conquer”. We need to take the thinking to a higher level.

                The disillusioned minions-of-the-right need to be involved in finding the exit strategy. They are not the “error”. The system is the “error”. How can the fringes unite? How can we move this discussion to progressive understanding? I gave German export as a clue. Look at the support of the European Central Bank, now being taken to court. Is this the beginning of the end?

                Or, yes the history of NZ’s central bank. Didn’t Labour once have a housing project funded by state-cash? Similar to the Nazis Autobahn right? Awesome!

      • marty mars 4.1.2

        Compassion for nazzis eh – how about fuck off, does that work for you?

      • Ad 4.1.3

        I have plenty of compassion for the German people, especially after World War 2.

        Your request for compassion for German Nazis however is a really silly and misplaced false equivalence.

        • CoroDale 4.1.3.1

          Compassion doesn’t mean we can’t assertively resist. It means stuff like, we won’t torture them after the victory. “Forgive them, for they know not what they do.” Compassionately isolate the narcissistic ruling class, yes, for the greater-good of the masses, to peacefully and compassionately development.

          • Ad 4.1.3.1.1

            So you can already see that you’ve poorly conflated German Nazis with all Germans.

            And by “we won’t torture them after victory”, I’m sure you still think that the post-victory Nureburg trials were a good idea? Or did the judges show insufficient compassion?

            But now you quote Jesus Christ being tortured by the Romans in Herod’s Palestine, as evidence that we should show compassion against Nazis. Is there a Raiders of the Lost Ark reference I’m missing?

            And in terms of “peacefully and compassionately development” – whatever the grammar – did you have specific issues with the Marshall Plan?

          • McFlock 4.1.3.1.2

            The Nazis knew exactly what they were doing.

            “Not torturing people” isn’t compassion, it’s part of not being a Nazi.

  5. joe90 5

    Nactional mouthpiece Farrar’s sewer is chest deep in RWNJs casting themselves as the oppressed victims of PC, POC, LGBT folk, SSM, onerous legislation, taxation, women, socialism, immigrants, foreigners etc etc, too.

    There are good reasons why men’s-rights activism has served for so many as a gateway drug to the alt-right: Both movements appeal to men with fantasies of violent, sometimes apocalyptic redemption — and, like Cantwell, a tendency to express these fantasies in bombastic prose. And both movements are based on a bizarro-world ideology in which those with the most power in contemporary society are the true victims of oppression.

    https://www.thecut.com/2017/08/mens-rights-activism-is-the-gateway-drug-for-the-alt-right.html

    • millsy 5.1

      I had to delete an old high school friend of mine from Facebook because was going all MRA/alt-right on me. Every second post of his was all about carrying on about how evil feminists were.

      He was a really nice guy when we were at school together, and we enjoyed hanging out — he was a bit of a nerd like me. Then he rants on facebook about how fat feminist women are threatening western civilisation.

      • adam 5.1.1

        Bill has a good link about the so called alt-right – lets call them what they are.

        White supremacists, loons, and nazi loving dosh-bags.

  6. adam 6

    What worries me, was the deathly quite from the right here in NZ about the terrorism in Charlottesville. Not a peep. Not one line of sympathy.

    Sometimes the obvious answers are the ones we don’t hear.

    • CoroDale 6.1

      Terrorrrrr! (cried In the tone of a Ninja) Anyone here heard of “divide and conquer”? – its basic game-theory. Anyone notice the collapsing neo-liberal paradigm?
      Are our eyes on the ball and the players? Left-right puppet shows aren’t going to change the drivers behind austerity. Austerity imposed by the neoliberals is one thing the left and the minions-of-the-right have in common. There could be a solution hidden in there somewhere.

      The Charlottesville fight was organised like a boxing match at a sports bar. Doesn’t take much money from billionaires to see that someone is brain-washed enough to drive a car through it! Wake up team – we have peace to organise.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 6.1.1

        A peace in our time?

        • In Vino 6.1.1.1

          Inclined to agree with OAB. Chamberlain and Co would have sounded most convincing at the time..

        • CoroDale 6.1.1.2

          Physical peace is just the other side of war. So, agreed, this peace will never fully come. But, yes, peace as individuals we find, developing this inner freedom is the core of any true and positive political movement, and we can grown and share this peace with those who are ready to receive it.

          • One Anonymous Bloke 6.1.1.2.1

            Stillness. Zen. As exemplified by the Book of Five Rings, for example.

            They’ll burn that too, along with your inner freedom. That’s what totalitarians do.

    • In Vino 6.2

      Sorry Adam, but Americans do so many multiple acts of horror: – police shooting innocents; crazed fools shooting students and teachers; guardsmen shooting University students; racial riots etc etc.. We have become inured. One tends to think, “Oh no, not them again!” and write it off. I am sure that most people here sympathise with the correct side – but we also have rednecks who don’t. A minority, I hope.

    • McFlock 6.3

      I dunno – my fb feed has been pretty full of anti-nazi stuff.

  7. North 7

    just delightful to read your post and the comments in this thread Weka. And the article Joe90 linked to @ 5…….bloody marvellous. Its thrust perfectly illustrated by the self-claimed victim-in-chief, Weirdo Trump. And as for Nazi Cantwell, raging meth addict ? It’s that (ground away with bitterness) no-teeth look that’s redolent.

    • CoroDale 7.1

      This “Godwin on Godwin” post comes from prolific writer of high quality. But this post has mostly gone over my head. There seems to be a big gap between my understanding of National Socialism and the concepts being thrown around here to beat the Nazis even further down. All things have good and a bad side. All things can be used positively or for evil. If we only focus on the evil side of “Nazis”, the outcomes will lower us all. If we are fair enough to see the good of what National Socialism tried to achieve, we can find solutions to raise ourselves out of this neo-liberally imposed free-market austerity.

      Lets remember that Social Credit and UBI are solutions that both the left and the National Socialist can share. The “Nazis” seem to have lost their socialist roots. Could we not help them re-find what was once a noble aspect to the National Socialist movement? Who else has a vision of the left and the right working together? How else can free-market neo-liberalism be overcome?

      • In Vino 7.1.1

        From my reading of history, the socialist side of Hitler’s ‘Nazi’ (short for National Sozialismus) was pretty much a façade: the Nazis were redneck racists driven by forces of history (Treaty of Versailles, Great Depression) and they never seriously entertained really putting into practice the pretended socialism in their creed. It was a ploy to con the ignorant workers/unemployed into siding with them. Is Mein Kampf a creed for Socialism?
        In fact, the Nazis threw Socialists into concentration camps. 6 million Jews died in those camps – so did 7 million Germans, including a lot of Socialists and Communists.
        Where do you get all this fluffy nice stuff from, Corodale?

      • One Anonymous Bloke 7.1.2

        The purveyors of neoliberalism will adjust just fine to the new future they founded.

  8. xanthe 8

    calling people “nazi” is dumb! just like calling “racist: is

    ask the greens how thats working out!

    • Union city greens 8.1

      Come again?

      • CoroDale 8.1.1

        Calling racist isn’t positive politics, I agree. Compassionately respecting that there are drivers behind their ignorance, this is the Green style.

        • Union city greens 8.1.1.1

          Well nobodies perfect.
          I’m okay with calling out and branding nazis and racists for what they are.
          For me, It’s every good persons moral duty.

          • In Vino 8.1.1.1.1

            ‘Drivers behind their ignorance’ ??? The Green style? You presume a lot, Corodale. My concern troll alert bell is ringing. I hope you can prove your sincerity. So far, epic fail.

    • McFlock 8.2

      if they’re doing stiff arm salutes and chanting against the jews by torchlight parade, it’s not “dumb”. It’s descriptive.

  9. Ad 9

    Let me just try something out.

    I think of Nazis as something more than racists, which makes me still prefer some other term than Nazi for the Charlotteville variety.

    I think of Nazis as characterized by:
    – military uniforms and consistent flags
    – the desire for a super-strong state
    – the orchestration of a single movement around a single totalitarian leader
    – merging the public sector state and the state’s military into a single command
    – revocation of judicial independence
    – state ruling the media
    – revocation of all democracy and opposition
    – no ability to form or belong to civil society or NGO groups without state permission

    I’m not sure I hear any of that from the Charlotteville protesters.
    I see them doing the standard atavistic swan-dive for common origins, purity drives, and special unique mythologies.

    If I had a tick-box, I don’t think the current US lot are near the above.

    • In Vino 9.1

      So you mean the protestors rather than the counter-protestors? (We need to be clear.) Maybe so – America today is not the Weimar Republic, so there will certainly be differences. But Racism may be an unfortunately common feature.

      • Ad 9.1.1

        Protesters who wanted the Confederate statues kept there.

        Racism as a common feature is not enough to label them Nazis.

        • In Vino 9.1.1.1

          True. I feel conflicted about it. It is part of USA’s history. Maybe not destroy the monument, but add a modernising plaque that rejects slavery etc?
          But we are so far away. We have our own problems of this nature.

          • Ad 9.1.1.1.1

            Maybe after the election I’ll do a post on “Why We Should Keep Memorials We Hate”. We have a few here.

    • AB 9.2

      Agreed – despite adopting the paraphernalia they don’t look to me like fully evolved Nazis. What they do have is a strong notion of a pure, beleaguered ‘volk’ and dangerous threatening ‘others’.
      That they seem to lack a coherent programme like you outline isn’t too surprising. Given sufficient power they might well evolve a similar programme over time, but they are not primarily political theorists so you wouldn’t expect them to have worked it all out in advance.

    • McFlock 9.3

      I think your list is incomplete.

      I’d add:
      A desire to make the nation conform to rewritten or invented historical ideals;
      A desire for ethnic and social homogeneity in their image;
      Assuming a victim status and blaming those groups that do not conform to their homogeneity.
      A willingness to use extreme violence and consider extermination to achieve those goals.

      The Charlotteville crowd have that in spades.

  10. In Vino 10

    To Poster: this was meant to be for lefties only. I think we have a concern troll.

  11. CoroDale 11

    Positive politics is a real challenge in these situations. I was personally impressed with the Greens lately, and the way James handled the attacks on MT from the media. Rather than calling the media “biased and aggressive” (which I think they clearly where), he just said, “The media are doing their job”. In that same sense, i would like to think a Green who truly knows his Charter, could also understand the conclusion that the “Nazis” are in that same sense also, “just doing their job”.

    Obvious to me (and James) that the media bosses should be giving their journalists better instructions on ethical code of conduct. Obvious to me also the “the state” should offer everyone, including “Nazis”, a chance to live meaningful lives in their community. (Yes, yes, takes time for their wounds to heel and recover from their ignorance, but we need a vision, and what is the other option, more division?)

    From the Green Charter, I read compassion as a guiding principle relating to non-violence, social and ecological wisdom. I respect the right of other Greens to label the “Nazis” racist, but if we can’t also respect them as victims of a broken system, then where is our positive and progressive leadership?

    • McFlock 11.1

      They’re not “Nazis”. They’re chanting “the Jews will not replace us” in torchlight marches and giving stiff arm salutes. They’re Nazis.

      Are they victims of a broken system? Are they like paedophiles who were themselves abused as children? Maybe some are. But maybe some are also privileged but small people who can’t handle the idea that a broken system that gave them privilege is slowly being fixed. Those guys are in no way victims.

      I find your reference to non-violence funny: years ago I sat through a talk about the difference between “nonviolence” (i.e. no violent action), and “non-violence”, violent actions designed to negate greater violence, such as attacking B52s with a hammer of slashing satellite dish shrouds. In those days there weren’t Nazi rallies happening, so violence against incredibly violent people didn’t come up.

      • CoroDale 11.1.1

        Nazis or “Nazis”, yeah, same thing, sorry for my grammar, you’re correct McF. But there is no point extending this term to include KKK style cults and child eating bankers. And yes, the list of war-time evils is endless, on both-side, but there is no value in prolonging the propaganda that National Socialism as dependent on anti-semitism. Using the term “Nazi” as a derogatory has no positive value. The word comes from a genuine political movement, National Socialism. National Socialism does have positive political ideals, some of which fit with the leftist views here at The Standard. Just as Jacinda helps to fix a National billboard, we should except the right of other political views, despite our history of NZ being on the other side of the Nazis back in the early 40’s. We need to rise about 80 year old war-time propaganda that labels other political views as derogatory.

        (There are many miss-understandings to be had here, with people talking on different levels, for different reasons. We need to focus on what is most broken, and as far as the list of problems goes, stuff like anti-semitism is very low on that list. Stuff like “Where the “Nazi” is Social Credit?”, and “Why the “Nazi” can’t we feed our kids with UBI?”, these questions are very high on the list.)

        • McFlock 11.1.1.1

          Dude, these guys are actual fucking Nazis. They model themselves after the original nazis. They use the slogans of the original nazis. They use the symbols and pr tools of the original nazis.

          I’m not using the word as a derogatory term. I literally mean that these fuckwits are in the same bunch of people that ran Germany in the 1930s and had branches throughout Europe, in the UK, and in the USA prior to WW2. They might or might not have been started by folks with authentic NSDAP membership cards, but it’s the same bunch of folks with the same brand of hate and the same tools of the trade. Yes, the KKK is there too, but actual nazis had their wee parade.

          You want to talk about the positive ideals of national socialism?

          Fuck learning anything “good” from the Nazis. Everything you brought up, other people have learned more about without killing millions of people. So the only thing that we can really learn from the Nazis is “don’t ever, ever let those fuckwits come anywhere close to respectability, let alone power, because they will fucking kill everybody.

          “Fuckwit” is derogatory. “Nazi”, in this case, is descriptive. They own that term, they have the flags, that’s how they see themselves. Fuck those guys.

          • CoroDale 11.1.1.1.1

            Such war and politics isn’t a subject that can be spoken and understood in this blog format. I’m a foul to engage here now as I do. It does me deep and wounding sorrow to say these following things. Most will miss-understand, and the few here will grasp the insight I offer, these few who do grasp this insight, for the first time will potentially be overwhelmed by the magnitude of this political dilemma we face. May we find support from friends and loved ones, or if you are alone, simply know that you are not alone.

            To Germany’s east was Stalin. Let us not go over the history of Stalin, it darkens me to the soul. To German’s west was the same narcissistic banking paradigm which you may recognise in Auckland’s house prices. The intellectual culture of the German people was a threat to the paradigms expanding from both sides. Their leader had some very difficult decisions to make. All politicians are human. We all make mistakes and can only govern by making political trade-offs. Sorry if your history books paint the story different. I have been organic farming in Germany for much of the last decade, and have only very slowly come to these logical conclusions, slowly cross referencing my views by examining the German culture itself. The official history of the war in this country is not open for debate, and independent views are legally punishable with long jail sentences. Technically Germany is still constitutionally occupied, and in practical terms the govt is run but the capital market anyway, who hold us all to ransom with the threat of global economic depression. So let us not get too carried away with the democratic political freedom mantra… Please, this is just the dark side. We all know of positive examples in our community that give hope for a bright future. Please focus on there positive examples after you have finished reading.

            Yes, you describe a stage-show theater style of war-time propaganda. I can accept you assurances that it still is being played to this day. But what is your point? Did you understand my point, towards a peaceful and compassionate solution?

            Dear McF, as I fail to recognise the peace process in your debate, it does me the greatest pain to suggest the following paradoxical conclusion. You yourself are making the same miss-take Hitler made, by thinking you can fight your way out of such a dilemma.

            If you think I may have exaggerated, well I hope you’re right. But this song from the 1972 Eurovision might clear things up for you, very popular in Germany, right to this day. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bDcVJygqOw

            • McFlock 11.1.1.1.1.1

              I’m sorry, did the Nazis not send millions to gas chambers? How the fuck is that a “mistake”!?

              At some point you might wander how putting people in cattle-trucks to be murdered is a rational or even effective response to the supposed threats from Stalin and Western “bankers”.

              Whatever, blame Stalin and “bankers” for Hitler’s decisions. There’s a reason Germany locks up Nazi apologists, and it’s a lesson that you’re ignoring.

  12. joe90 12

    Elle Reeve, – who produced and fronted the Vice doco about the Charlottesville violence:

    “Once they started marching, they didn’t talk about Robert E. Lee being a brilliant military tactician. They chanted about Jews. Like, they wanted to be menacing. It’s not an accident,”

    http://www.rawstory.com/2017/08/vice-reporter-says-charlottesville-marchers-barely-mentioned-lee-monument-they-chanted-about-jews/

    (1:18 into the vid)

    https://www.cbsnews.com/videos/what-really-motivated-the-protests-in-charlottesville/

  13. Sabine 13

    I was stopped yesterday by a copper. My partner and I just travelling late with a trailer.
    copper pokes his head in the car and goes ” oh you look like genuine people”. I asked what do ‘non genuine people look like’. He mumbled something about a thief driving at night in a “company” car with a trailer attached to it.

    The mindset that would allow someone to consider us white people ‘genuine’ and others not is what paves the way. Causal racism, not even recognized as such that allows us to ‘other’ someone on their skin tone, their name, their religion, their creed,

    My partner, being the good Kiwi bloke that he is, was having a bit of a time following the events in charlottesville with me the German. I showed him the picture that i have of my Grandpa, all young, blond, aryan, in his wehrmacht uniform and told him that when a Nazi raises its head the only right thing to do is to punch that Nazi.
    So my partner looks at me and says’ This is white privilege?’, and I says yes. When, for the first time really you see it, you just can’t unsee. And you need to call it out. Every single time. No matter if they call it ‘white pride’, ‘white nationalism’ or “Nazi’ism’.

    The first antifa where the Russians, followed by the English, followed by the US, lead by the resistance in France, Poland, Italy, Slovenia, Hungary, Norway, Holland, Belgium, Northern Africa, and all the other countries that sacrificed their young ones on the altar to Hitlers ego.
    And they rightly punched the Nazis again and again and again and again until they capitulated. AS there is no other way to treat people that would kill you and me simply because they would consider us “Untermenschen”.

    Fucking never forget.

    • CoroDale 13.1

      Yeah, Sabine. Coppers generally have a little bit of experience and intuition with petty crime. Though, you’ll be right if you consider their blindness to the number white-collar tax-dodges they have pulled over, and not thought to good though the books of their businesses 😉

      You touch on the deep emotional damage done by the holocaust. I was surprised that Holocaust still plays in the German media weekly, even today some 75 years later. However, much less is said about the end of the war. Guess that is partially Germans “taking it on the chin” so to say. But sometimes we need to dig deep, look beneath and take things to a higher level, so these things don’t happen again. Can we, the common people keep ourselves in a peace process? Because it’s easy for the ruling class to draw us into a conflict process.

      In our NZ schooling we are told how Japan entered the war by bombing Pearl Harbour. We where never told that US had blocked Japans oil resources that came from Indonesia, or that the Australian Navy had told the Americans before-hand that the Japanese will attack Pearl Harbour. History books from the victor, ah. Once Pearl harbour was hit, the Americans could enter the war, and carpet boom every significant German city, in the dark of night.

      Some feel morally obliged to call out the double standard of “not calling Charlstenville a terror attack”. Then they should also call-out the double-standard of, the Biblical scale of fire that rained on the German civilians at the end of the war. And the unspeakable period of transition as allied solders took “control”. We must be strong enough to call a holocaust a holocaust. The allied bombing strategy was a Holocaust in both Germany and Japan. Where does this “eye-for-eye” blindness come from? Yeah, deep pain, I feel it too. So, why am I typing? We see the path that conflict can escalate to. So we need to remain on that path of peace. Are we strong enough to work though our pain and find the peace that is there within? And remain within this peace process, rather than enter the games of divide-n-conquer.

      As the economy collapses, (you have see the house prices right? – the dead bird in the mine shaft) what games will the ruling-rich use this time? Be vigilant of racism, this is good. But be vigilant also of our traumatised selves. This is something the Nazis and we have in common, a level where we are certainly one. That trauma is in us all. If we can find compassion, maybe some day, we can also share that compassion with them too.

      • weka 13.1.1

        Anyone new to the thread, McFlock above has addressed CoroDale’s position very well above and drawn a conclusion about Nazi apologists. Start here,

        Godwin on Godwin

      • lprent 13.1.2

        In our NZ schooling we are told how Japan entered the war by bombing Pearl Harbour. We where never told that US had blocked Japans oil resources that came from Indonesia…

        I guess you were being particularly inattentive, stupid or are simply lying.

        When I did 5th form history, the text book that they inflicted upon me explained in detail. Along with that being in accordance with the sanctions agreed at the League of Nations to deal Japanese aggression and targeting of civilians in their invasion of China. It was also imposed by the Dutch government in exile who ran the Dutch East Indies at the time.

        I had a number of objections to what they taught – but they were mainly due to the simplicity (I’d been swallowing the contents of the War Memorial Museum Library for a few years by then).

        But I can see it now that the writers were simply trying to make it simple for completely lazy and gullible simpletons like you. But I guess they failed.

        • CoroDale 13.1.2.1

          Sorry Bro, at school I studied science. 4th form Social Studies really was that simplistic. (Though you guess right that I didn’t pay much attention.) Hey, what is your more educated view on Pearl Harbour?

          Have I swallowed propaganda? Really did look to me like USA let Japan hit Pearl Harbour as a false flag excuse to enter the war, especially in Europe. What is your more educated take on the run-up to that revengeful nuclear holocaust? Sorry for that emotional expression, am I being inaccurate?

          And Dear McF,
          sorry, but my faith in the history books has truly been pushed so low. If the truth is so clear and horrible as you say, then why the need for a law against having independent political views on war-time events? I don’t see what I’m ignoring, I don’t see your connection to justify political repression? Why push Socialist views into extremism? I don’t see the democratic gain, I see more division, polarisation and less intellectual exchange as the result. Oh, it was like 75 years ago, and we move on with some democratic aims? What have I missed?

          (Yeah, I know. The German constitutional issues are a hornets nest, even if the wall-fall has seen water under the bridge – it’s not easy being leader of the free world, ah.)

          While I respect that your last response was fair and well written, the general tones here fall quickly into emotional and personality politics. Sad to see the mostly brilliant Weka taking this same tone with Gareth M over a sarcastic twitter exchange. It’s a change to restrain when talking about Central Bankers. But with his back ground we should give him credit for not sounding much worse. Wander when his views on Social Credit will surface? Too close to election to be showing the Nazi card? Winnie’s Nazi colours are already clear, bless-his-little-cotton-socks. But I think Gareth shares policy with the Greens on this one. Leave it for a high-level Commission, post election. This lowers the chance of (character) assassination.

          Yeah, there seem to be some overly simplistic views on National Socialism and Fascism floating around here.

          Hey, I’m honestly no friend of Jewish Bankers, but I’ll defend them if they look innocent. I wouldn’t suggest J Key racistly assassinated 20 Afghan women and children when he approved operation Burnham. I would assume he made a mistake. No doubt we can send him to jail for some reason or another, but not for having the wrong political perspectives. Lets not fall to that low level of grand coalition Germany, world export war 2017.

          • marty mars 13.1.2.1.1

            Your type of spin is flowery and wordy and still basic – I doubt many are fooled.

            • CoroDale 13.1.2.1.1.1

              Thanks for feed-back Marty. Fingers crossed that I’m the fool in all this. I once raised some of this with Gareth H. And I respect his politically wise and I think genuine answer, basically “I tend to believe in the simplest answer as usually the most probable”. Hoping someone can find where my complexity went off-track. I can’t see it. My questions above are all genuine, not rhetorical. It’s solution based positivism I seek, but I’m not the politician to take things forward, I’m just a damaged-goods farmer. Trusting the real political folk in this blog arena can move things forward, but only if the insight is understood.

              Basic as Universal Basic Income backed with Social Credit. That’s where the true Harbour of HoloKost and Pearls will be found. (Holo-kost being rough ironical German for whole-food)

              • I’m not sure what you want to happen.

                • CoroDale

                  Oh, what is social credit ya mean? Well yeah, public education around the banking system is core.

                  Greens understand Social Credit , but will never talk about it, as it would cost them votes. It is quietly in policy “to be investigated”.

                  You can learn more from the Democrates for Social Credit. Or even NZF! Their leader was brave enough to publicly hint that he would support Peoples Public Credit as he calls it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoUN_Y2h9o8
                  “But we wouldn’t use it like the Nazis…” The Nazi card is a powerful trick for blocking central-bank-reform.

                  Its unfortunate that the Greens can’t work better together with NZF, and sad that Social Credit was assassinated by the media years ago. I support the Greens for their solid Charter, and amazing individuals especially in Te Roopu Paunamu and the top 20. Hey, James S has what it takes for Deputy Prime Minister, the way he talks the language of the business class!

                  Perhaps the core dilemma is; if Labour was to announce respectable economic detail, they would lose votes from media attack. Perhaps there is a secret plan from Labour to fix the country, but they have to keep that plan top-secret til after the election. Or perhaps Labour needs to stop making new economic policy weekly based on what they read in The Economist. At least the Greens have some solid go-to Economists who will give support once in Greens are in Govt, the Greens will organise some solid Commissions, so Labour shouldn’t get tooooo far off-track. Does any-one have positive insight into the economic world of Labour?

                  But money-reform is also blocked by the anti-Semitic card. Some of the powerful bankers call themselves Jewish as part of a self defense mechanism for the banking system. They are probably less that a few hundred people, in a narcissistic network of a few thousand or more. But their economic power is an extreme challenge to democratic money reform. There are obviously nice normal bankers who are Jewish, but there are also Satanic/Narcissistic “jewish” bankers.

                  Perhaps the ruling class genuinely believe that the world is so complex that their governance is superior to our vision of democracy from the lower class. But I would rather we democratically work on educating the lower class.

                  Actually the Jewish religion isn’t as narcissistic as it’s easily sold. Although the Jews may consider themselves the chosen people of God (sounds narcissistic). This is from a very old and mystical perspective which modern materialists will fully miss-understand. They may believe that the True God will only show through when all the other false Images of God have been destroyed, etc, etc (sounds horrible!) But this is also miss-understood even from a Semitic-Christian perspective. I believe they are actually talking about not being ruled by the Arch Angels, (well maybe the Catholics don’t like this perspective, which is another layer of complexity). Jewish mysticism suggests that we should all be finding the common Light-of-the-Ego, that which we all share in communal consciousness, so something like that! Oh, yes, an intellectual and mystical labyrinth and great material for propaganda! And the evil of the Israeli State continues holocaust in Palestine, certainly not as Jewish values. And many (very brave) Jewish leaders have been clear to distance themselves from the actions of the Israeli State. Sad how the evil of the Israeli State plays the holocaust card to justify their evils. This is another reason why the anti-Nazis movement is so dangerous.

                  Any Jews or scholars are welcome to correct me on detail, but I think I got all that fairly close to the general Jewish perspective.

                  Yeah, gentle education on banking, with a defensive eye on the media. And develop and two economic plans, a public plan for elections, and a secret plan to be enacted after the election. Sounds horribly deceptive, but we have plenty of intellectuals politicians capable of ethically playing such games of smoke-n-mirrors.

          • McFlock 13.1.2.1.2

            lol, you just completely let yourself go there, didn’t ya.

            Which bits about the Nazis from the history books don’t you believe?

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