Govt unprepared for transition when Queen dies

Written By: - Date published: 12:30 pm, November 4th, 2021 - 70 comments
Categories: Maori Issues, Politics, republic - Tags: , , ,

Our head of state, Kuini o Aotearoa, aka Queen Elizabeth II of England, looks likely to die relatively soon, yet our government is unprepared as to whether her heir should become our next head of state, one of this country’s highest-ranking former diplomats says.

“We will soon be required to face the question, ‘After Elizabeth — what next?’,” Peter Hamilton, the former Deputy-Secretary of Foreign Affairs and Trade wrote in his just published memoir, New Moons for Sam.

He says it would be completely inappropriate for Elizabeth’s son Charles or his heir, William, to become Aotearoa’s next head of state.

“In my view, Charles and Camilla and the Windsor family generally do not fit the requirements, they never have,” Hamilton wrote.

Hamilton, who campaigns for New Zealand Republic (NZR) said in a recent talk to Wellington’s University of the Third Age (U3A), that it will become obvious when the Queen dies that “Charles and Camilla aren’t really what we need in this day and age”.

“Camilla has only been here twice, so it would be very odd to have her as the wife of our head of state.”

And while next in line, William, and wife Kate were “a nice couple”, they had little connection to Aotearoa. Hamilton finds it peculiar that the person who represents us as head of state “is in fact a non-resident, non-citizen and is a British aristocrat who basically represents a class system”.

Most politicians from David Lange on, with the notable exceptions of NZ First leader Winston Peters and former PM John Key, have expressed the view that Aotearoa becoming a republic is inevitable.

Current Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern said she believes we will make that move in her lifetime although it “is not something this Government is prioritising at all,” she told The Guardian.

She also told the newspaper that “it was a decision for the royal family” and that the relationship between Māori and the Crown had to be resolved before the transition can occur.

But Hamilton thinks Ardern is wrong or confused on both those counts. Firstly, there is zero motivation for the monarchy to alter the status quo. Aotearoa must take agency on the final step in our constitutional path towards becoming a true, independent democracy.

Regarding Te Tiriti o Waitangi, Hamilton says there is much disingenuous myth-making related to Maori signing Te Tiriti with the British Crown suggesting that becoming a republic upends Te Tiriti protections.

“It’s an argument you often hear. The British Crown very early on, effectively washed its hands of the Treaty on the basis that the imperial government was no longer responsible for such matters,” he said.

“Nothing was done to redress grievances the Māori had under the Treaty until a localised New Zealand government began the long process through the establishment of the Treaty of Waitangi Tribunal.”

Hamilton said it would be a straight-forward matter to transfer current protections provided by the Crown to the new head of state.

Dame Patsy Reddy’s comment on her last day in office as Governor General (GG) last month agreed it would be easy to switch the head of state role when Aotearoa becomes a republic. “It’s a dynamic role. When the people want to change it, it can easily be changed,” she told TVNZ.

NZR’s most recent polling shows most age groups strongly favour a Kiwi being our next head of state. In the 18–30-year-old group, 59% supported that view against 37% favouring the monarchy. Only in the over 60s is there a slim majority supporting the monarchy.

Hamilton said much of the opposition is based on the very negative and wrong notion that a head of state, president, would combine the office of head of government with that of head of state.

National Party leader, Judith Collins, is among those who are confused on that front, either mischievously, or by ignorance.

However, NZR envisages the new head of state would have almost identical responsibilities as the current GG.

As well as swearing in new prime ministers and accepting their resignations, the GG’s main power is the ability to dissolve Government and fire the Prime Minister, something never done in Aotearoa, although infamously done in Australia by Governor-General Sir John Kerr in 1975.

NZR believes the process of becoming a republic should be made as simple as possible as recommended by republic advocate, former Prime Minister, Sir Geoffrey Palmer in his book Towards Democratic Renewal.

To avoid election fatigue, NZR advocates the head of state should be appointed by parliament, either by a simple, or a two-thirds, majority, rather than by direct election.

NZR proposes two referenda – firstly on whether voters support the concept of a Kiwi as head of state, and, assuming the first referendum is supported, approving the process of appointment, together with entrenching Te Tiriti.

Dr Sean Palmer, Chair of Monarchy NZ, says anyone who thinks creating a constitution and shifting to a republic would be a simple process is being “staggeringly idealistic.”

“The mythology is that it is possible to govern a country in a simple way, that you can find a constitution anywhere in the world that outlines how a country will work in its entirety and that it would be accessible to everyone.”

However, the minimal change route envisaged by NZR doesn’t involve writing a formal constitution and offers little perceptible change other than the symbolism – an important, but underrated aspect, according to Hamilton.

“We still have to take some final steps to create a fully independent and sovereign nation. The head of state of a country embodies the statement about who we are and what we are and what we want to project to the wider world,” he said.

Despite this important symbolism, Hamilton accepts that transiting to mature, independent, nationhood is not burning for Kiwis or the government.

Even on this government’s supposedly burning issues, climate change and poverty alleviation, the fire burns lukewarm as Covid consumes all oxygen, so the chance of it being prepared for Elizabeth’s death and not being caught unprepared for transitioning to a republic, seems next to zero.

A snap poll among the 360 logged for Hamilton’s U3A talk, showed 84% of the 291 who voted, supported having a Kiwi as our head of state. Almost all participants were over 60.

(Simon Louisson reported for The Wall Street Journal, AP Dow Jones Newswires, New Zealand Press Association and Reuters and briefly was a political and media adviser to the Green Party.)

70 comments on “Govt unprepared for transition when Queen dies ”

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  1. Paul Campbell 1
    4 November 2021 at 12:53 pm

    Rather than having charlie on the money I think we should simply switch to the "governor general is elected by 2/3 of parliament" rather than appointed by some foreigner with advice from the govt.

    Probably some additional parliamentary procedure should be added so that not just the current govt/speaker can nominate candidates – perhaps a 10% of MPs required for a nomination and a procedure for what happens if there are multiple nominations are made – the goals IMHO should be that the GG should be elected by a large consensus of the population, not as a partisan hack.

    BTW we can still have someone appointed as “Queen of NZ” – could be Charles – but that could just be a ceremonial/historical thing with no actual power or cost to the public purse – we might elect them every 3 years – could be from the Kingi movement

  2. Phil 2
    4 November 2021 at 12:53 pm

    Camilla has only been here twice, so it would be very odd to have her as the wife of our head of state… And while next in line, William, and wife Kate were “a nice couple”, they had little connection to Aotearoa.

    The QE2 cruise ship visited New Zealand more times than its namesake Queen, so a direct physical connection to the country doesn't seem to be a remotely useful metric for determining someones suitability to be the NZ Head of State.

  3. higherstandard 3
    4 November 2021 at 12:58 pm

    Perhaps ask the NZ public their opinion at the next NZ election.

  4. SPC 4
    4 November 2021 at 1:20 pm

    The PM offers the Treaty as reason not to make any change (the real politic of waiting for boomers to fade away – white nation colonial motherland connection and related aversion to partnership with the indigenous people)(the same people who block CGT and estate taxation).

    The royalty fan boys simply pretend that there is some too hard constitutional issues involved.

    Behind the curtain the appointed GG is in all but name our head of state and has been for decades.

    All we have to do is admit this reality and make it official.

    We could start by giving the GG the new title Crown Governor and having the appointment confirmed by parliament before it was passed onto the Queen for her rubber stamp. Then on her death eliminate that last part.

    • roy cartland 4.1
      4 November 2021 at 1:50 pm

      Would be nice to have an actual Māori language title for the GG as well. Ditto for the PM if that were to change; I know it was intentionally set up to be so, but 'President' is just about the most boring title there is for a head of state.

      • lprent 4.1.1
        4 November 2021 at 3:39 pm

        Whatever the most melodious translation is for "Miserly holder of the reserve powers" is. Because that is a large chunk of what the position of crown's representatives most important role.

        Technically, the GG is the Commander-in-Chief.of the military, appoints the Commissioner of Police, and probably has a similar role other active branches of the public service. Is in charge of the cabinet (in that they are the arbiter of who is the prime minister), parliament in that they dissolve parliament, judges in that they appoint them, etc. Not to mention that they are required to approve any legislation.

        Mostly they don't exercise those powers – they take advice from the crowns ministers. But the government of the day still has to go through the motions of gaining assent by the GG to use any of these powers. There is often means that there is a separate path to opposing blind governmental stupidity (I'm thinking of the purported stupid proposal to deploy SAS to Fiji during the first coup).

        "Miserly holder of the reserve powers" sounds like a good job description and title to me for the role.

    • observer 4.2
      4 November 2021 at 1:55 pm

      Our MPs currently swear "true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of New Zealand, her heirs and successors".

      This is obviously absurd, since they are only there because of votes by the people, and they are the ones who deserve MPs' "allegiance".

      It would be easy to change the oath ("allegiance to the people of NZ") but still too hard to have been done yet. Instead Parliament muddies the waters by saying in effect "We'll keep the nonsense but say a bit in Te Reo and then we'll do the prayer in different languages instead of scrapping it".

      If Parliament can't grasp this very small nettle, I don't have much hope that they will grasp a much bigger one.

      • SPC 4.2.1
        4 November 2021 at 2:12 pm

        Sure, we are the sovereign people and the “Crown” should be seen as a term for our collective and the role of government in public service.

        We still have a residue of the UK parliaments practices – despite the fact that the New Zealand Crown office person is not head of our state church (we do not have one).

        • Gezza 4.2.1.1
          5 November 2021 at 9:56 am

          You raise some interesting points there. Should we transition away from the current monarchial HOS there is probably a bit of ceremonial parliamentary process, involving such matters as the sceptre, for example, which would possibly need to be changed.

          Depending how much we wanted to be reminded of the origins of our current legislative body.

          There is scope for Māori tikanga & kaupapa to be incorporated in a new process. If there can be a new process which is agreed and endorsed by those of both Māori & Pākehā, Descent, I kind of like that idea.

  5. Dennis Frank 5
    4 November 2021 at 1:29 pm

    I move we invite Trump to become the totem of the Republican movement here. His performance as leader of the Republicans shows what is possible when you take the brand seriously. Republics are an excellent way to promote narcissism in leaders!

  6. Tiger Mountain 6
    4 November 2021 at 1:30 pm

    What about a combined referendum in 2026?
    –Aotearoa NZ be the official country title
    –Form a “Republic”, with Head of State elected
    –Leave 5 Eyes and join non aligned movement, with an independent foreign policy based on mutually beneficial bilateral trade and cultural agreements

    • roy cartland 6.1
      4 November 2021 at 1:53 pm

      Being Aotearoa would have us up near the head of the line in the Olympics, before Australia, so that's value right away.

      • SPC 6.1.1
        4 November 2021 at 2:15 pm

        Sold. The indigenous language name before the colonial language name is also appropriate.

        • Gezza 6.1.1.1
          5 November 2021 at 9:59 am

          Though I didn’t originally like the idea of naming us Aotearoa New Zealand (I prefer Kiwiland, a combo of Māori & English, which also trades on our national symbol,mthe beautiful, cute flightless bird & also the name we commonly get called overseas) I am now warming to the idea.

          • roy cartland 6.1.1.1.1
            5 November 2021 at 11:58 am

            Yeah, we used to be referred to as Maoriland! The Maoriland film festival still uses this name.

    • mary_a 6.2
      4 November 2021 at 2:38 pm

      @ Tiger Mountain (6) … Agree 100%

  7. observer 7
    4 November 2021 at 1:42 pm

    The issue is not whether we should become a republic (we should) but how we can stuff up the transition.

    Given the levels of mistrust in politicians (not confined to present gov't) and the idiocy of social media there will inevitably be loud if incoherent complaints about "feathering their own nest" etc. You only have to look at the debate about a 4 year term: logically there are reasonable pros and cons, illogically "I hate jacinda no way extra year!!11!".

    I'd suggest a referendum (NOT a postal ballot, but a proper one by the Electoral Commission). "Should NZ's head of state be a NZer?". A more accessible question than "republic", which is a sedative.

    Anyway, the headline is successfully provocative but wrong: if the Queen drops dead tomorrow nothing changes. And politically, the worst time to be anti-monarchist is a funeral (if anyone wants the media quotes post-Diana, just ask, or remember. It was treason not to feel devastated).

  8. Patricia Bremner 8
    4 November 2021 at 1:44 pm

    Ignoring Charles relationship muck ups, he has been the most regenerative farmer and is not the fool he is painted to be.
    Cutting ties with Britain has been put in the "Too hard Basket" for a while.
    There are enough real issues to deal with without worrying about symbols akin to deck chairs on the climate Titanic.

    • tc 8.1
      4 November 2021 at 1:59 pm

      +100 such a low priority item given the pandemic, climate, scarcity, water quality, housing etc.

      • SPC 8.1.1
        4 November 2021 at 2:16 pm

        Except that it can be done simply and quickly – especially if National and Labour do a deal like over the property consents.

        • Michael 8.1.1.1
          4 November 2021 at 2:56 pm

          That lasted less than 24 hours before they were bickering over the details. I disagree with the main point of the article, that it is "inappropriate" for Prince Charles to become our next head of state on the death of the current sovereign. As a matter of law, Part I of the Constitution Act 1986 provides for it. I think what the learned diplomat actually means is that he doesn't like Prince Charles (and his wife), and doesn't want them as our Head of State (and consort). While many people probably agree with that opinion, it is only an opinion and not entitled to any particular weight. There are, equally, many people quite happy for New Zealand to remain a constitutional monarchy and for Prince Charles to become our next monarch.

          • SPC 8.1.1.1.1
            4 November 2021 at 3:05 pm

            One option is to have our MPs swear allegiance to Charles when he becomes King … but not to his heirs.

            Which then informs the need to make a change to the Constitution Act (coming into effect when he becomes King).

            • In Vino 8.1.1.1.1.1
              4 November 2021 at 9:30 pm

              This is a matter of such obvious simplicity that I think we should have a poll on changing our flag at the same time.

              State figureheads, that is all they are. We have enough other things to worry about now, and can change our figureheads in the future when the public actually care more about it.

              • Gezza …
                5 November 2021 at 11:34 am

                We need to change the flag.

                But for heaven’s sake, can we do a better job of how we go about selecting the designs & choosing a new one than that last very tribal utter fiasco that saw us basically voting on whether or not to adopt an All Blacks flavoured tea towel as our blimmin national symbol.

                My greatest regret is that the Tino Rangatiratanga flag has become so strongly associated with Māori separatism & a hopefull small but vocal coterie of perennial Pākehā-bashers

                To me, it’s an iconic, stupendously visually attractive design that I would otherwise vote for in a heartbeat.

  9. Patricia Bremner 9
    4 November 2021 at 2:49 pm

    I still want to know Who would benefit from knowing that in advance?

    What other issue is being covered by "Look what happens when the Queen dies?"

    Further, I feel Government Ministers have battled hard and need a break. This seems like "make work".

  10. PHB 10
    4 November 2021 at 2:51 pm

    Charles will be an excellent King. And it will be timely. He is very climate change aware and environmentally on point just when the world, including New Zealand, needs leadership in this area. But I still hope that the Queen lives long enough to send herself a letter!

    • miravox 10.1
      4 November 2021 at 5:14 pm

      He is very climate change aware and environmentally on point just when the world

      So he wants everyone else to do something about it. He needs to give up the grouse, rewild the estates, and stop with the helicopters before I'd find him credible.

      Don't get me wrong – he's saying all the right stuff, it's just that it's for his future subjects and other billionaires. The royal family seems to exempt itself from making significant lifestyle changes to lessen the impact of climate change.

      • Gezza 10.1.1
        5 November 2021 at 11:41 am

        True. But the pressure will be going on the Royals to lead by example & I like to think they might soon start to. They have to start somewhere. Their quandary is how to balance their historical & their future lifestyles & their people’s expectations.

        Their people now cover a broad spectrum of socioeconomic, historical & now ethnic backgrounds. It’s probably far easier for us to tell them what is right than for them to get that balance correct or harmonious in transitioning to a modern, relevant monarchy.

  11. Gypsy 11
    4 November 2021 at 3:13 pm

    "yet our government is unprepared as to whether her heir should become our next head of state, one of this country’s highest-ranking former diplomats says."

    Nonsense. The government has made it's current position clear, and the PM is taking an entirely sensible line with this.

  12. Stuart Munro 12
    4 November 2021 at 3:51 pm

    The UK royals have a bit of class, and though Liz was a far from stellar performer, they're a better bet than some of the ambulant dog tucker that rise to the top of NZ political parties.

    I like Charles, he writes intelligently. We could do much worse, and likely would. And they may cost Britain plenty, but they don’t cost us.

    • SPC 12.1
      4 November 2021 at 3:57 pm

      How many people who have led political parties have ever become GG?

      • Stuart Munro 12.1.1
        4 November 2021 at 5:13 pm

        Maybe not many – but were the title President that might change. Even a gradual shift to an inappropriately powered executive like that of the US (or Russia) is to be avoided like Covid.

      • Barfly 12.1.2
        4 November 2021 at 5:51 pm

        Holyoake is the only one that springs to mind

    • Anne 12.2
      4 November 2021 at 6:52 pm

      @ Stuart Munro 12

      yes

    • Gezza 12.3
      5 November 2021 at 11:57 am

      👍🏼

      Although not originally a great fan of the Royals because ☘, I’ve got more & more fond of HM QEII as I’ve got older.

      Despite their privileges, & estates, & wealth, it’s a job that comes with massive responsibilities & expectations & intense scrutiny. It’s not a life I’d willingly choose to lead.

      She’s had no end of trouble with the kids but has soldiered on bravely thru all of Britain’s many challenges ever since she was born. I now just like & respect her.

      And to my surprise I’ve even warmed to Charlie & Camilla in recent years. They should always have been together, those two.

  13. Ad 13
    4 November 2021 at 4:44 pm

    Wait until the 2040 bicentenary.

    Then federate into Australasia.

    This world is no place to be a small state in this emerging world.

      • roy cartland 13.1.1
        5 November 2021 at 9:29 am

        I read that as 'Australia' first time, too. Australasia wouldn't be so bad.

        • Gezza 13.1.1.1
          5 November 2021 at 12:00 pm

          Biggest problem will be getting the Ozzers to accept a New Zealand PM or Head Of State. Which they would have to do if they want sensible leadership. 😉

    • SPC 13.2
      5 November 2021 at 12:46 pm

      Some bi-centennial

      If the USA China confrontation has been resolved …

      If ti tiriti indigenous do not have the right of veto .. or a list of demands for consent Oz would choke on …

      A lot of teachers and nurses might like the better pay and conditions while still living here.

      And all of those working class Kiwis in Oz would then get to access the full rights of citizenship.

  14. garibaldi 14
    4 November 2021 at 5:03 pm

    The sooner we part company with Slack Britain (you gotta be joking to call it Great) the better.

    All the fawning we've done over the mother country all these years gave us what? The Morris Marina , that's about all. Look at what they did in all their conquests (colonies ). A proud record in India ? NO.A proud record in the Middle East? NO A wonderful story in Australia ? NO. How did they get on in Africa? Not so good huh. How did we get treated by them in WW1? Gallipoli was their monumental cock-up, let alone all the unnecessary trench warfare in Europe. Gross incompetence in just about everything they did . More examples? How about the slave trade to America or the opium war with China? Lovely Empire eh what? Ok ,so they had a role in helping to win WW2, but it was minimal. Russia and the USA won that war.

    Did you notice the way they treated their best buddy NZ when they joined the EU?

    Now they still puff out their bloated chest and put a warship in a joint exercise in the South China Sea as if they still rule the waves. What a joke . They are now simply a toady of the American Empire pretending they still mean something.

    So let's stand alone now, and be Aotearoa New Zealand, non aligned and with a truly independent Foreign Policy.

    .

    • Dennis Frank 14.1
      4 November 2021 at 5:57 pm

      let's stand alone now, and be Aotearoa New Zealand, non aligned and with a truly independent Foreign Policy

      I like the sentiment (have expressed it onsite here several times in the past). To pick a few nits: I'd subtract New Zealand for a start. Dumb name, meaningless drivel, ain't worth a dime.

      Second, in a globalised world, we network via relations. So geopolitical relations are a game we must play. With expertise!

      So although nonalignment & independent foreign policy are essential principles – to me – realpolitik tells me a pragmatic compromise will also be requisite in the various international relationships we have as a nation. So both/and logic applies; praxis ought to be situationally-driven. Context will determine foreign policy.

      • Phil 14.1.1
        5 November 2021 at 9:46 am

        I'd subtract New Zealand for a start. Dumb name, meaningless drivel, ain't worth a dime.

        Absolute nonsense. Much like the people of New York, or New Orleans, or various other 'New' name locations, New Zealanders have established a cultural presence and reputation on the global map that stands entirely apart from the original European location, to the point where the original location is of no importance at all to understanding who we are or what we stand for.

    • RosieLee 14.2
      4 November 2021 at 6:31 pm

      Tautoko.

    • In Vino 14.3
      4 November 2021 at 9:35 pm

      Ahem! you may find that Britain was actually the first major power to ban slavery throughout its empire.

      Just saying..

      • ghostwhowalksnz 14.3.1
        5 November 2021 at 3:59 pm

        1811 – Spain abolishes slavery, including in its colonies, though Cuba rejects ban and continues to deal in slaves.

        Britain initially banned the slave trade in Atlantic in 1807, but slavery in its colonies continued till 1833

    • RedLogix 14.4
      5 November 2021 at 12:39 am

      No peoples have a morally perfect history – none. Yet for some reason if it's of European origin, especially Anglo, we're being trained to despise it. The selective self-loathing from garibaldi above is typical.

      I wonder what purpose it's meant to serve?

      • garibaldi 14.4.1
        5 November 2021 at 8:28 am

        We are still tied to the Empire and that is what is wrong with the direction of this Country. The 'loathing' you refer to is aimed at the dominance of "middle of the road" centrist Capitalists who pretend that we are doing something about Climate Change and making millions of excuses for our lack of collective action.

    • ghostwhowalksnz 14.5
      5 November 2021 at 4:13 pm

      Its only called 'Great' Britain for geographic reasons.

      'Little' or lessor Britain is the part of France known also as Brittany.

  15. DMS 15
    4 November 2021 at 8:10 pm

    I get mad/sad every time I see our NZ flag flying with the union jack on it. Royalty after the Queen is irrelevant. John Key stuffed up the flag referendum. Four red stars or Matariki will do me fine!

  16. peter sim 16
    4 November 2021 at 9:26 pm

    "yet our government is unprepared "

    What evidence has the poster have that any government thinks that humans (royal or not) immortal?

    Gimme a break.

    Discussion about constitutional matters are are fine.

    Suggesting that governments are unaware that people die is ridiculous.

    This is very careless sloppy posting.

  17. vto 17
    5 November 2021 at 8:02 am

    In this world of turmoil I suspect you will find that most people will prefer stability, and not want change at all…

    And switching to Charles or his offspring wont be an issue at all. The Hamilton bloke mentioned offers no good reason for his statement that Charles and offsrping are inappropriate. In fact I suspect crown-lovers will be absolutely 100% fine with the transition.

    In addition there is no evidence that the current system doesn't work – it does work. The Hamilton bloke mentioned offers big round statements that support his personal beliefs but nothing concrete..

    A monarchy (or similar unelected hereditary leadership) has been a hallmark of humanity for eons… It works… and there is plenty of evidence that their replacements, republics, don't… Trump and the US anyone?

  18. Sanctuary 18
    5 November 2021 at 11:33 am

    I have suspicion – based on the nature of the news stories relating to the Queen coming out of the UK that all seem to have a meta of preparing the world for her death – that her health might have begun to decline. At 95, that decline can be very rapid.

  19. DS 19
    5 November 2021 at 12:03 pm

    I'm actually pro-republic myself, but honestly the entire premise of this article is peculiar. The Government knows that when Liz dies, Charlie-boy becomes the new King. That's really it… and in the absence of any particular public groundswell on the matter (hint – there isn't), we leave it at that.

    • ghostwhowalksnz 19.1
      5 November 2021 at 4:07 pm

      Yes. The proclamation of Charles as the new king will come very quickly…and its done.

      Even that is only a formality as under the Act of Settlement 1701 a new monarch succeeds automatically.

      There never was a problem as suggested by the author here. I cant see any action taken before Queen Liz dies to do anything at all, and would cause a rukus to even discuss openly at top levels.

      And we have our own Constitution Act which says

      S5 Demise of the Crown

      (1)The death of the Sovereign shall have the effect of transferring all the functions, duties, powers, authorities, rights, privileges, and dignities belonging to the Crown to the Sovereign's successor, as determined in accordance with the enactment of the Parliament of England intituled The Act of Settlement (12 & 13 Will 3, c 2) and any other law relating to the succession to the Throne, but shall otherwise have no effect in law for any purpose.

      (2)Every reference to the Sovereign in any document or instrument in force on or after the commencement of this Act shall, unless the context otherwise requires, be deemed to include a reference to the Sovereign's heirs and successors.

      • SPC 19.1.1
        5 November 2021 at 4:20 pm

        Is it consistent with our law that succession be limited to heirs who are members of the Church of England?

        The idea that a person is sovereign and not the people is authoritarian quaint. And the idea that a democratic national people are subjects of a foreign born national person is at its root both imperialist and colonialist.

        See History of the UK 1603-1707. Then post 1714 having someone from Hanover as King over Scotland.

        Remember Bannockburn. Free the King in the Tower.

        • ghostwhowalksnz 19.1.1.1
          5 November 2021 at 5:45 pm

          Hardly an example for good sovereigns…The Stuart family.

          Yes the Hanovers were uniformly a complete loss right up to their most recent branch.

          Electress Sophia was the only worthwhile one but she just predeceased the last of the Stuarts, Anne.

          • SPC 19.1.1.1.1
            5 November 2021 at 5:55 pm

            The King in the Tower was David Bruce.

            A Hanoverian ruling over Scots and earlier a Scot ruling over the English – that only made sense if the island could unite and become one "British" people. But that idea was inconsistent with rule in Eire over the Irish.

            Elisabeth of Bohemia, Palatine and the abbey, was before sophia and ahead of her time in the realm of the meta verse (in both the physical realm and in love of the concept).

            Saying – the duality of concept confuses the effort at visual mathematical display.

            • ghostwhowalksnz 19.1.1.1.1.1
              7 November 2021 at 10:05 am

              The Act of Settlement specifically mentioned Electress Sophia and her descendants

              Recent changes removed male primogeniture and the restrictions on catholics

        • DS 19.1.1.2
          5 November 2021 at 7:52 pm

          More Scots fought against BPC than fought for him in '45.

  20. greywarshark 20
    5 November 2021 at 2:20 pm

    Why shouldn't Charles become our prime leader? He seems a person with strength, stickability and capability and despite problems has residual integrity. Who says he is unsuitable or William if reason and the general public decide that one of them is satisfactory? Nothing is completely satisfactory at present anyway. I don't think much of alternative possibilities who show above the parapet.

  21. Maurice 21
    5 November 2021 at 4:59 pm

    England's dabble with a Republic did not do much good. It led to (un)civil war and there are still quite a few Cavaliers about who may well take unkindly to modern regicide.

    A distant head of state with few if any local political entanglements and no need for local partisan appointment of Head of State has quite a lot to recommend it.

    When all said and done the Governors General is largely a symbolic rubber stamp for a majority Government's legislation.

    • SPC 21.1
      5 November 2021 at 5:07 pm

      The Crown person as sovereign is a fig leaf for the unbridled power of the parliamentary government – or democratic majority (the same one that took Maori land).

      Some Maori want to use Crown accountability to honour the Treaty to restore mana. Whether a foreigner as sovereign over us, or a local person as Crown Governor on behalf of our peoples sovereignty, that will continue.

      • Gezza 21.1.1
        5 November 2021 at 5:29 pm

        "The Crown person as sovereign is a fig leaf for the unbridled power of the parliamentary government – or democratic majority (the same one that took Maori land)."

        That is true. In fact a letter from Queen Victoria to James Busby ( I think) on display in Busby's House at Waitangi indicates that British Sovereign, Queen Victoria, had more regard for tino rangatiratanga Māori than her subsequent appointees or the abominable settler governments, who all started abrogating Te Tiriti in various places within, I believe, the year after it was first signed at Waitangi.

  22. coreyjhumm 22
    5 November 2021 at 7:14 pm

    It would be absolutely easy to transfer the role of the monarchy to an elected head of state in nz without changing the status quo.

    I wanted an nz republic for years… Right up until Trump. Trump made me quite comfortable with a constitutional monarchy.

    Also if you're electing a head of state it becomes a political position, if you're electing a head of state they will now have some sort of executive power because what's the point in electing a figure head we might as well keep the current system and just do away with the monarchy but then the governor general would be elected by the pm so the gg would be a puppet of the pm so they'd have to be elected and thus have power.

    I guarantee that we'd almost always have the opposite party's candidate be president to the party with a majority in the legislature thus constant friction.

    While we're at it if we're create a president and becoming a republic nzs extremely centralized govt would need to be depowered so an upper house would eventually be created and that upper house is also going to want power otherwise what is their point

    So you'll have all these different branches of govt stopping the legislatures agenda in a country where despite extremely centralized power a govts face uphill battles to get minor reforms passed even if they have a sole majority.

    We'll just end up in dead lock

    Either a puppet head of state or an elected head of state who rail roads the legislature.

    And nz despite the hype is a corrupt country. We hide it well but we are so much corruption and underhanded and loop holey crap goes on in this country as is

    Any it Wont happen not anytime soon . Nz wouldn't even change the flag five years ago. (hilarious that labour who wanted to change the flag since the days of Kirk and even in 2014 opposed it just cos of John key, even more hilarious that anti colonial people voted to keep a colonial symbol, we spent 27 million and didn't even get a new flag)

    If will and Kate take over it's game over. People like them.

    The flag referendum set back the republican movement decades ….

    There's not even a republican party in our country we haven't even had a Paul Keating the closest we got Bolger and Clark saying it'll happen one day. But it's not on their agenda

    What will happen is Australia will become a republic and we'll turn our noses up at republicanism much like Canada does …. If ain't broke why fix it is kiwis attitude to this…

    Like Canada we don't have a national identity our identity is basically us differentiating ourselves from Australia

    I'm not totally opposed to a republic it used to be my number one issue and now I look at the state of the worlds republics…. If it ain't broke why fix it our govt can barely even pass legislation with a sole majority in a unicameral legislature god help us if we add more branches.

    One day… Maybe but I'm 28 and I don't see it happening in my life time.

    A LOT of labours base are out and out monarchists and they are my age.

    Bugger this. Fix housing. Charles is better on the environment than our government anyway.

  23. Castro 23
    5 November 2021 at 10:15 pm

    I thought No Zealand was a rogue province of the PRC, to be reintegrated by any means necessary, even if they just buy it back acre by acre? It'll be an emperor, won't it? And not a sissy boy emperor… a proper iron-fisted one.

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