Greens: free dental care for all
Written By:
- Date published:
6:10 am, August 7th, 2023 - 75 comments
Categories: election 2023, greens, health -
Tags: dental care, universal services
Press Release from the Greens
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The Green Party is today promising to make dental care free for everyone in Aotearoa.
“The time is now to make dental care free for everyone and to pay for it with a fair tax system,” says Green Party co-leader Marama Davidson.
“Right now, oral health is a luxury few can afford. Every year millions of people put off going to the dentist because it is too damn expensive. The average cost of going to the dentist is around $350, so it’s hardly surprising that with food, rent, mortgage repayments, and power bills going up, so many people are choosing not to go.
“Problems then, of course build up. People spend their lives in agony. It is heartbreaking to think that the situation gets so bad for some that they are taking pliers to their own teeth in a desperate attempt to fix problems that have spiralled out of control.
“Let’s be clear: the current dental care system in Aotearoa is broken and cruel. This hasn’t happened by accident, but is the consequence of political decisions successive governments have made to exclude dental care from the public health system. This has got to change.
“Under our plan, everyone in Aotearoa will be able to visit the dentist when they need to through a new community-based New Zealand Dental Service, which will also provide emergency and complex dental services through local hospitals or specialist sites.
“The Green Party will finally end the indifference successive governments have shown to dental care and guarantee everyone the dental care they need, when they need it,” says Marama Davidson.
Green Party co-leader James Shaw added:
“It should not be the case that in a wealthy country like ours there are hundreds of thousands of people who cannot afford to go to the dentist, even for a basic check up.
“Dental care for adults in Aotearoa is now among the most expensive in the world. Unbelievably, we have a higher rate of unmet dental care in Aotearoa because of cost than even the United States.
“Seventeen years ago, the former Prime Minister Helen Clark expanded dental care from our youngest children to everyone aged 18 and under. The time is now to finish the job.
“Free dental will be fully funded through fair and simple changes to the tax system that will unlock the resources we need. Every dollar will come from those most able to contribute.
“Our fully costed plan will give everyone the peace of mind that no matter what, they can visit the dentist when they need to,” says James Shaw.
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Policy overview and link to full policy.
Policy release speech by Marama Davidson. Transcript is here.
Media coverage
A poll earlier this year found three-quarters of voters back free dental care.
A poll earlier this year found three-quarters of voters back free dental care.
Earlier this year, then-Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern said it would be “enormously expensive”.
The Greens estimated it would cost $1.41 billion in the first year, rising to $1.71b in the 2025 and 2026. Buying a few hundred more dental vans would cost $150 million.
“We anticipate that costs will decrease long-term as a greater focus on preventative care improves oral health outcomes for all New Zealanders,” the party said.
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- Collins leaves for Pacific defence meetingDefence Minister Judith Collins today departed for New Caledonia to attend the 8th annual South Pacific Defence Ministers’ meeting (SPDMM). “This meeting is an excellent opportunity to meet face-to-face with my Pacific counterparts to discuss regional security matters and to demonstrate our ongoing commitment to the Pacific,” Judith Collins says. ...5 days ago
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- Ngāpuhi hapū gather to receive Tribunal report on Treaty grievances
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- Short story: Beautiful Isolation, by Catherine Chidgey1. In the evening and in the night, I sit on the balcony and think of you. I can’t see the water but I know it’s there, soft and slow. We bathed in it that last day, you and I, when the dusk hung heavy as cloth of gold ...18 hours ago
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- The Unity Books bestseller chart for the week ending December 8The only published and available best-selling indie book chart in New Zealand is the top 10 sales list recorded every week at Unity Books’ stores in High St, Auckland, and Willis St, Wellington. AUCKLAND 1 The Bee Sting by Paul Murray (Hamish Hamilton, $37) The runner-up for the 2023 Booker Prize ...1 day ago
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- Gone By Lunchtime: Do Te Pāti Māori-led protests set the tone for the term ahead?Our award-winning podcast assesses the opening stanza of the Luxon-led government. After the long, serene political gap as coalition talks went on, politics has roared back with plenty of shouting and not so much rizz. Toby Manhire, Ben Thomas and Annabelle Lee-Mather assess the early exchanges, including Winston Peters’ ...1 day ago
- The Amalgamated Workers Union Calls On The Government To Give Fair Pay Agreements A Fair Go
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- Australia’s first mobile cooling hub is ready for searing heat this summer – and people who are ...Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Jane Currie, Professor of Nursing, Queensland University of Technology Shutterstock Heatwaves are a major public health hazard. Socially disadvantaged people are especially exposed to extreme heat and other impacts of climate change. Many people experiencing homelessness – more than 120,000 ...1 day ago
- Free Speech Union Releases Briefing To Incoming Government, Outlining Key Areas Of Policy To Protect...The Free Speech Union has sent 14 Cabinet Ministers a comprehensive Briefing to the Incoming Government, outlining five key areas of policy that the Government must address in order to protect and expand Kiwis’ speech rights. We look forward to ...1 day ago
- Interislander ferry upgrade: Finance Minister warns of cost blowoutFinance Minister Nicola Willis says she has already met twice with KiwiRail bosses over a "major cost blowout" in the project to replace the Interislander ferries. ...1 day ago
- A rangatahi Māori perspective on Cop28With the new government gaining international infamy for its climate policy, for rangatahi Māori like Kaeden Watts, attending climate conferences is more important than ever. Every year world leaders meet for the annual Conference of the Parties (Cop), the world’s most powerful climate crisis conference. Despite Cop being criticised for ...2 days ago
- BBC host denies she was ‘flipping the bird’ after live faux pasAccidental Partridge is one of my favourite Twitter (I am never going to call it X) accounts, and given today is the last day of live updates I think it’s absolutely fair I include a video from it. If you don’t know why it’s called Accidental Partridge, go watch all ...2 days ago
- National Trying To Rewrite History By Removing App Tax Website And Press ReleaseThe Taxpayers’ Union is calling on the National Party to front up to consumers who will face 15% higher prices for some services from the likes of Uber, Airbnb and food delivery apps after their app tax U-turn rather than trying to erase all ...2 days ago
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- PM Luxon visits cyclone-hit parts of Hawke’s BayThe prime minister is spending the day out of Wellington, touring parts of cyclone-damaged Hawke’s Bay and meeting with senior leaders in the community. Christopher Luxon began the day in Wairoa, where he met with mayor Craig Little. Later, he’ll head to Napier for a meeting with regional council members. ...2 days ago
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Note"' The "media" are very carefull to keep to the meme that Greens are about "tax increases" being very careful to avoid any mention of the fact that Green tax policies will result in tax cuts for those with income under 125k, and improved Government services and infrastructure for everyone.
https://thestandard.org.nz/wp-admin/post.php?post=888835&action=edit&classic-editor
“Once upon a time, in a world far away” we had these people called “reporters”.
”An honourable profession, who considered it their job to keep the public accurately and completely informed.”
Lying by ommission, which again highlights the bias and failure of the shock jocks posing as "Journalists", pervading most media.
How many billions are National proposing to spend on paving every inch of farmland in the country for cars, again?
Roughly half of what Labour is intending to spend, just in Auckland…
Attacking National on their RONS spending is almost irrelevant given this governments own recently announced spending plans.
It is understandable why the Greens have hammered Labour on this, when you look at the details.
I had always understood that dentists had never wanted to have capped fees as part of joining a government scheme as G.P's do hence never being part of a scheme.
Hospitals were to provide dental treatment for the disabled and low income people but have gradually wound down their dental services, closed hospitals and shifted the cost from the health budget to welfare grants which of course the dentists love cause it is more profit for them.
Health have been offloading their costs for years – mental health the classic example of which a large amount is now with the prison service.
Most dentists ARE part of the capped fee scheme to provide free dental care to under 18s
“All the dentists who felt that adult dental care should be fully privately funded were from conventional or corporate-owned practices.”
These people are directly or indirectly responsible for the financial management of their practices. “As such, cost and profit considerations are more likely to influence their opinions and treatment decisions … since Government-regulated remuneration rates do not match either the level of private fees or the real cost of providing quality care,” the authors wrote.
The percentage of dentists who thought their work should be “fully publicly funded” was 2.6 per cent. Less than 14 per cent though dentistry should be “mostly public funded”.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/124979260/most-dentists-think-a-publiclyfunded-dentistry-system-wont-work
“While adult oral health is not subsidised the poor oral health of children in New Zealand was so bad that the Government introduced the state-funded School Dental Service in 1921. It was a world first and was introduced against strong opposition from some professional dentists.”
“By the early 1970s the health of children’s teeth had improved. There were fewer fillings and extractions and about 60 percent of pre-schoolers and almost 100 percent of primary school aged children were registered with the service.
With such an outstanding record of success it is hard to know why the service was not continued as it was but, in the 1980s, dental nurses became dental therapists with an emphasis on oral health education and prevention rather than direct intervention.
The dental health of school children has been in decline ever since and that dreadful situation continued when they reached adulthood.”
https://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/104693989/dental-subsidy-worth-chewing-over
Many dentists won't accept patients in the under 18 category.
They make more money off fee-paying adults, than a capped government fee.
Recently looking at enrolling my teen at a dentist – out of 22 local dentists (i.e. within a reasonable radius of where we live) – a grand total of 2 were accepting teen patients.
Some also refuse to take people on benefits. No profit and they might not pay their bill. Cosmetic surgery is where it is at. Bright, shiny white and straight teeth.
It takes the Greens to come up with a policy that Labour should have come up with. This is a very worthy policy and would actually SAVE money in the long run because keeping people's teeth healthy has a positive flow on effect on general health. My grandmother always said to me "if you have good teeth, you have good health" and she was right!
The cost of $1.4 billion a year looks pretty cheap compared to National's yuppie highways through the Hibiscus Coast and Labour's dreamtime undersea road tunnels and will benefit a lot of people who can't afford even minimal dental work. Plus it won't take a couple of decades to complete.
This is more like the Greens Party of old, policies for ordinary people – not the privileged or the gender conscious and the most compelling reason to date to vote Greens.
Go the Greens!
Some critics are right that this could be staged.
But the lack of dentists is due to low demand because of cost.
And once there is demand we can bring in foreign trained dentists while there is a local shortage.
what does that mean?
Some in the profession say that there are not enough dentists to enable delivery of the policy in the short to medium term.
so is the staged bit saying that Greens are making it up that their policy will work in the short/medium term?
Staged, because the GP know there are not enough dentists in NZ to deliver on this promise.
From the policy document,
https://assets.nationbuilder.com/beachheroes/pages/18276/attachments/original/1691273205/Health_Full_Policy_Document.pdf?1691273205
why won't that work?
It may work long term (though I don't think the increased number of places in dental school is anything like enough – just think of the current unmet need).
But, it won't work quickly. Promising free dental care is undeliverable right now. It doesn't matter how much money you're prepared to throw at it – you literally cannot deliver.
Where does the GP think these dental hygienists, and other oral health professionals, are magically going to appear from?
We currently have a very significant shortage of dentists – right now – when people are having to pay full price. We also have a huge shortage of dental hygienists – having a major impact on the ability of the current dental service to schools to provide care to primary students. Promising free dental-care is setting up an expectation that can't be delivered on.
Have the left learned nothing from the 100,00 affordable homes debacle?
Did you read the quotes?
I'm assuming some of that means expanding what oral health therapists can do.
But this in particular,
If you think that won't work in the timeframes the Greens are using, please provide an explanation of why not, with reference to the timeframes in the policy document. Some figures would be useful too.
They are in short supply now…..
When people have to pay full price for the service (they're mostly employed in dental practices).
If the floodgate of demand opens up (because suddenly free) – how do you think the supply of these professionals is magically going to increase.
Dentists are already being recruited (heavily) from overseas (although Labour/Greens were unwilling to add them to the Green list of occupations).
Dental practices are already short of dentists – especially in rural and hard to staff areas.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/dentists-few-and-far-between/Y4CIHCQWLGP4PXB3IWQWVMWNVQ/
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/rotorua-daily-post/news/dentist-says-government-not-doing-enough-calls-for-dental-health-to-be-prioritised/ERFKBLP4A5BZDLGJIANNSZ4MXM/
There is no spare capacity to be utilized in the provision of this free service.
And, indeed, a conservative projection is that the demand is nearly double the current supply (i.e. around 40% of people can't afford dental treatment). I think that's an under-representation – many people forgo routine dental care, and only go to the dentist when there is something wrong. If cost were not a barrier, many more would go for annual checkups.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/478695/dental-care-40-percent-new-zealanders-can-t-afford-it-report
If you can show me where the GP are proposing to double the number of dentists in 2024 – ready for the implementation of this fee-free scheme – then I'll agree that they've got their policy ducks in a row.
From the policy quotes that you've linked, they're talking about increasing training, and maintaining immigration – but not being honest, that they can't implement the fees free scheme for everyone *until* the workforce is in place. So not 2024 – more like 2034.
Over-promising…..
why?
Sorry if I missed it, but how many dentists are we short now? How many oral health therapists?
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA2303/S00168/govt-needs-to-brush-up-on-dentistry-workforce-woes.htm
I can't answer the 'how many short' question – I don't think anyone knows. According the 2019 survey (below) there were 2469 dentists practising and 500 out of the workforce (for a range of reasons).
But, there are 70 positions advertised on this immigration site:
https://www.new-zealand-immigration.com/dentists-wanted-in-new-zealand
The last dental workforce survey I can find is 2019 (obviously Covid got in the way – maybe they're planning on for later this year)
https://dcnz.org.nz/resources-and-publications/publications/workforce-analysis/
So ratio of dentists per thousand population is getting worse. Not to mention the areas which don't have one at all….
Interestingly, looking at the data – we've been staffing around 50% of our dentist need out of overseas immigration for quite some time.
Doubling the dental school places (while it was a ballpark estimate) is looking more and more on target.
It will not work quickly, so the issue is how the resources to deliver are allocated.
The mobility factor is good – available resources to maintain a nationwide system. Then emergency need (hospital resources cannot cope) – so funding for spare private dentist work.
Here it is extraction. Otherwise it's annual checks (age 65 for the oldies and those with CSC and with children) to clean things up and provide advice.
Please explain what you mean by quickly, then why you think it won't work with reference to GP proposals and timeframes.
We could go to the Cubans and fund them to train and deliver 500 extra dentists over 10 years starting in x years time. And fund NZ students who want to be dentists and would make perfectly good dentists train at those Cuban institutions – currently such people are gate-kept out of training by what looks like a deliberately engineered shortage. Frankly, even the threat of it might be enough to loosen the sclerotic grip of the profession over its own remuneration.
So how's that working for GPs then?
There are two issues with this approach:
Belladonna, would you be in favour if they upped the training to 80? Or is that you think there are hidden flaws? What might stop this from happening apart from floods and storms?
I just think that NZ is less attractive to immigration from medical professionals – we're being outbid by countries like Australia and Canada – and our lifestyle isn't counter-balancing that, right now.
I'd like to see the intake into the dental school at Otago double – at the very least. And preferably coupled with a new dental school being set up somewhere in the North Island (I've suggested Waikato – but I'm not wedded to this – if someone has a better option).
student loans are a big problem in terms of training people.
They don't have to be. If Government is serious about investing in the people doing the jobs that NZ needs.
I don't have a problem with fully subsidised education for health allied professionals (not just dental, but a whole host of others) – tied to a bonding scheme – so you have to work in NZ for a reasonable period of time.
It could be done as either an up-front bonding scheme. Or a straight student loan with a credit arrangement (e.g. 1/7 forgiven for every year you work in the health job you qualified for in NZ). In either case, if people really wanted to opt out (and go be an investment banker instead) – then they can just re-pay their student loan at the standard rate.
When looking at some of the less qualified positions – then I think they should be looking at more of an apprenticeship scheme – which means you get paid to work and learn.
I'm a fan of bonding and apprenticeships. We've had user pays education long enough now to know that it creates problems. Including people graduating needing to chase high paying jobs which drives up dental treatment costs. We're so fucking stupid at times.
And this is why I am a fan of no repayments of any TL while working in the medical sector in Enzed.
the debt still affects people though eg if they want to get a mortgage.
Sure, but not as a consideration as to mortgage affordability.
Being required to work in the industry for 7 years (just my ballpark figure – don't take it as gospel) – for complete student loan forgiveness – isn't going to greatly impact on the ability of most people to qualify for a mortgage. The vast majority would be working for at least that to build up a deposit.
That applies to every area where we have local skills shortages, but we recruit now where and when we can.
It's that really all it costs? A pathetic billion dollars?
Something people want vs something no one asked for (a new tunnel) at a 20B cost is outrageously obvious.
WTF labour, seriously.
That is infrastructure for Auckland as a package and resilient and able to cater for non carbon vehicles of the future. It is for one third of our population. Nearly 2 million.
I am awaiting further Policies, and I don't think they will be a few cents off vegetables. The mandate to include partner Policies will be in the vote imo.
The Green's Dental looks better than Act's destructive "Stop all work" sack half the MBIE employees. The next poll may reflect some of that.
Hell yes!!!
This, the under 130 K tax cut and the housing policy are the exact policies you'd expect from a centre left Labour govt.
Universalist, social democratic policies that would have made people take a second look at labour had labour announced them and used their resources and party and media machine to get the word out.
I hope the greens are able to get the word out as much as possible because every kiwi I've ever met, right across the political spectrum wants universal dental.
I still think Chloe as temporary sole leader on these policies would get the party to 15% and inject massive energy into the campaign like Ardern in 2017 but regardless…
Brilliant to see the Greens filling the social democratic void in NZ that has been Left by Labour who seem to be having a major identity crisis about wtf they even are "let's offer nothing that'll excite the voters"
It's also interesting strategy that the Greens are rolling out social security policy before climate. I'm looking forward to seeing what they do with specific climate/environmental policies, but they're getting this the right way around. Reassure people that we can take care of humans needs along with the big changes coming with the climate/eco crisis.
Bravo greens. The only party offering true social reform IMO, shaws launch speech nailed it with the view that there is no better time than now for reform.
Calling out the lack of policy and use of fear by nact was something a half decent media should be doing so go greens !
Again the Greens are using wealth taxes to pay for another one of their policies.
Please tell me how they achieve this, given the following statement from PM Hipkins.
"I'm confirming today that under a government I lead there will be no wealth or capital gains tax after the election. End of story," Hipkins said in a statement.
Either the Greens are planning to govern alone or Hipkins is going to have to step down. You cannot negotiate on Hipkins position, it is categorical.
please link to the quote. You've been here long enough to know this is a requirement.
Good point Weka!
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/493596/hipkins-rules-out-capital-gains-tax-wealth-tax-if-labour-re-elected#:~:text=Chris%20Hipkins%20has%20ruled%20out,gains%20tax%20after%20the%20election.
Or this could be framed another way: is Hipkins prepared to allow a NACT government if Labour doesn't have an outright majority and needs the Greens and TPM? Is he using the threat of a NACT government to discipline the electorate into maintaining low expectations?
As the Greens have said; it is up to the electorate what form the next government will take. The Greens are putting out popular policy, Labour seem deadset on ruling any of it out.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/300348036/jacinda-ardern-is-a-truly-transformational-leader
Transformational government? Yeah right.
I've asked you before. How does Labour form government without the Greens? They can't. The Greens have said that they cannot be taken for granted and that the cross benches are an option this year. So Labour will have to negotiate policy with the Greens if they want to be government again.
I completely understand that. Labour and the Greens do need each other and will have to negotiate.
My point is, given Hipkins has categorically ruled out implementing wealth and capital gains taxes whilst he is PM. How can he possibly change that position after we have all voted?
It's not credible to categorically rule something out pre election and then change that position after voters have had their say.
The only way I can see this working is if Hipkins steps down as PM. Any other scenario is frankly untenable for the Prime Minister.
Hipkins should've said that wealth and capital gains taxes will not be Labour party policy whilst he is PM. That then gives him flexibility moving forward if another party wants to take that route.
He certainly backed himself into a corner. I have no problem if Labour want to replace him after the election.
If he is standing in the way of a lab/grn/tmp coalition govt…
He can go…
No one is irreplaceable…
So Labour will have to negotiate policy with the Greens if they want to be government again.
@weka 7 August 2023 at 3:21 pm
The converse also applies. The Greens will have to negotiate policy with Labour as well.
What worries me is that with electors being beguiled by various election policies they may forget that unless Labour gets a decent showing all the innovative creative policies in the world are not going to get some of the policies of the minor parties brought into practice particularly as the minor parties may have limited themselves now to only one partner. The Greens have ruled out working with Nats etc. Which seems a bit premature to be honest in my view. But nothing to be done now as we cannot force the genie back into the bottle.
PS All the formatting that is usual on the posting function has gone. I cannot do a reply to a poster. I have restarted. I have also got a strange statement about copying & pasting a code. I ignored the code and it said i was pasting spam. I put it in and my post appeared. Is this some thing new? My virus checker reports no problems.
This is such a fundamental issue within green pol and NZ pol, if you don't understand why then I am doubtful you will be able to understand GP policy, election strategy and post-election negotiations.
Essentially, to support National becoming government, the Greens would have to stop being a left wing party and a green party. The party would also collapse as its membership base deserts it. The GP is its members, so this would mean the end of the Greens.
Everyone knows its MMP. Labour don't actually need a decent showing in order for them to form government. What needs to happen is L/G/TPM need more votes/seats than N/ACT/NZF.
That could theoretically be L 26%, GP 20%, TPM 5%. Even with more realistic numbers, this is still true.
The issue here isn't how many votes Labour gets, it's where those votes are coming from, or where they are going if people aren't voting Labour. If people vote Green or TPM instead, it's still a vote for a centre left government. The problem is if too many people shift from Labour to NZF or Nat.
Essentially, to support National becoming government, the Greens would have to stop being a left wing party and a green party. The party would also collapse as its membership base deserts it. The GP is its members, so this would mean the end of the Greens.
Partly true. They would have to stop being partisan (left-wing) and return to the political position of authentic representation of the Green movement – the basis upon which the GP was originally formed.
There are two feasible bases for supporting a Nat govt, neither of which are currently realitistic. The first is that the Nats would have to cease being braindead and use their BlueGreen brand as the basis for developing collaboration for the common good. The second is old-fashioned deal-making (in which parties with nothing much in common negotiate deals on policies for mutual benefit).
Your delusion about the membership base leaving the party is most peculiar. When I rejoined the GP, I attended the party conference where Russel Norman conducted a straw poll of members who self-identified as left-wingers and those who still believed the Greens are `neither right nor left but in front' as per the 1980s formula. The latter were counted as about 2/3 of the whole – which I saw with my own eyes and have reported onsite here around half a dozen times since.
The left-wingers within the GP have proven their ineffectual political skills several times since, such as running a candidate who got little more than the margin of error and attempting to de-select James as co-leader without securing an alternative to run instead of him. Both hopeless & pathetic, the so-called Green Left…
In the 80s we didn't have decades of neoliberalism, nor the kinds of wealth disparity we have now. We also didn't have MMP.
Besides, if we're doing anecdata, I was raised by a Values Party voter. Here's the VP manifesto for those that want to understand the genesis of the NZ Greens
https://web.archive.org/web/20181202112714/https://www.globalgreens.org/green-party-platforms-programs-and-manifestos/nz_values_1975
Being orthogonal to the traditional left/right spectrum =/= being able to support the formation of a right wing government. The main reason the GP will never support National is because National's ethos and thus policies are antithetical to green politics.
People being neither left nor right but out in front still have functioning brains when it comes to political positioning and policy. Exactly what deals could the Greens do with National that would be worth the policy losses in other areas? They get a climate ministry but are hampered on real climate action and meanwhile Nact dismantle environmental and social security protections.
Supporting National into government would in fact remove the Greens orthogonal position and enmesh them in L/R politics.
The main reason the GP will never support National is because National's ethos and thus policies are antithetical to green politics.
Never is quite a long time in politics! However it's true that I used your reasoning 30 years ago to persuade them to head left in parliament. Pre-MMP there was only the old binary choice there, so it seemed sensible then.
It's also true that National haven't learnt anything new since. Your hostility to them is therefore pragmatic enough to seem reasonable. I actually feel the same but don't discount the principle of leverage. Centrists deserve a more radical progressive option than Nat/Lab mediocrity ad nauseum: I'm okay with the Greens taking a hard left position on a policy basis (wealth tax & free dentistry.
I'd just prefer such levers to operate in both directions rather than just to the left – optionality is the concept. If the Greens trend upward in the polls toward the election their policy stance will be vindicated & if the election returns them at a higher leverage position those levers will be potentially effective in govt.
The Greens are already enmeshed in L/R politics.
I think DF has pointed out the view that many of us who have been around for a while had thought The Greens started out from. I know through working in the environmental sector that many of the NGO groups working there were able to work and push through gains with whatever Govt was in power. Some of these groups NFAC/Maruia, RFBPS etc were some of the rump ideas of original Green thinking eg Guy Salmon. .
Thus I am always a bit surprised that The Greens have latched themselves so firmly to the Left.
I am not sure about the impact of MMP or the neo-lib types govt we have had, especially the neo-lib angle.
My point is though that MMP actually means it is or should be easier for a green type party to work across govts, doing deals with whoever is willing to talk to them. I think the environment is actually suffering if this ability is limited to talking to just those on the left.
In the last few years The Greens has repositioned itself from an environmentally focussed party to a bog standard political party concerned about taxes, roads etc. That is fine but in doing so they have taken with them the ability to rove.
Who is actually going to outgreen The Greens? It should not be too difficult I would have thought for a party to come in and do this. If one of the main parties were to do this it would seem to indicate that while there is room for many players in things like potholes, houses etc we desparately need a clear focus on the environment from somewhere.
I don't think is is just the trending upwards that is important though DF. If they have ruled out negotiating with anyone other than Labour and Labour does not make the cut in an accumulation of left-ish, left centrist parties then the Greens have lost any ability to do deals, particularly on the environment. An upward trend in those circumstances would seem to be a bit of a pyrrhic victory.
This is a view from working with green type people, even after the neo-lib stuff. In fact I was working with green type environmental people up until I took early retirement 15 odd years ago ie in the 2000s.
I am always a bit surprised that The Greens have latched themselves so firmly to the Left.
No mystery whatsoever.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Party_of_Aotearoa_New_Zealand
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Values_Party#:~:text=The%20Values%20Party%20was%20a,at%20Victoria%20University%20of%20Wellington.
I was attracted to politics by chance in 1972 and tossed up whether to join the new Values Party or Labour. Labour won due to its charismatic leader, Norman Kirk. The Values Party was more than just an environmentalist party. It also advocated social change which favoured left wing ideals as it still does today.
Yes I do note that Anne. The point I was trying to make was that the more The Greens position themselves as a standard political party the further away we get from a force for the environment…..
We in NZ miss and need a focussed party being a force for the environment, in its widest sense.
"We in NZ miss and need a focussed party being a force for the environment, in its widest sense."
Concur.
Environmentalism without class struggle is gardening – Chico Mendes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chico_Mendes
Of course but there is no rule that says the environment and people cannot be dealt with separately. My point is that the people side is being dealt with by all the other parties, in their own ways from Act through to TPM.
No-one seems to be dealing with the world, the country we live in……if we don't get that right then all our people foci? focuses is for naught.
There is no rule, but as outlined by Chico Mendes to separate the environment from people renders the environmentalism hollow and ineffective. The costs of climate inaction are already more heavily felt by those side-lined by our current economic system and without fundamental change will continue to be.
People cannot actually be separated from the environment, it is where we all live.
This is a fundamental misunderstanding about green politics. You are arguing for an environmental party withing its narrowest sense.
The reason the GP have policy on roading, is because roading is an environmental issue. Roading impacts on the nature where it is built in multiple ways, it creates pollution in multiple ways, and it’s intrinsically linked to climate change.
One of the orgs you mentioned as holding the rump ideas of original Green thinking, Forest and Bird, are part of an NGO group going hard on climate. Because climate collapse will destroy native species and ecosystems.
https://forestandbird.org.nz/climateshift/
Climate Shift understands the links between social justice and the environment. If you don’t address poverty, poor people are more adversely affected by climate change, but even if one doesn’t care about that, we need the working and underclass on board with transition, mitigation and adaptation, because they are large in number. We need them to shift to PT, walking and biking for instance, and if we want that to happen we have to make that accessible.
You also seem to be unaware of what the Greens do on the things you would consider environmental. Or maybe it’s that you don’t approve of those things when the party is also working more broadly? But even a cursory look at their press releases shows consistent and meaningful work on those things.
https://www.greens.org.nz/media
btw, Guy Salmon is right wing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Green_Party_(New_Zealand)
Perhaps you are wanting a conservation party? But even there, it was National that ripped funding out of DOC, so it’s hard to see how that works.
Love it, it might take time it ,might need a different funding source, ut shouldn't involve cosmetic stuff unless needed for employment.
This is much more preferable than handing out money
I think you will find the New Zealand dental council is very protective of NZ trained Dentists and make it almost impossible for overseas train Dentist to gain employment.
They can't just prove their degree is legitimate and do a exam both theory and practical and start work.
They must pass exams in Australia taking at least 18 months and then a small number are able to pass via a grading sysem that only allows the top 15% at most to pass and then the successful few are swallowed up by the Australian Dental Council.
New Zealand could still use migrants with the skills in hospitals for extractions and the mobile vans to the provinces/rural areas without services (cleaning, fillings annual checks).
The stats from 2019 – the most recent ones available, show that 1/3 of the dentists practising in NZ qualified overseas.
https://dcnz.org.nz/assets/Uploads/Publications/workforce-analysis/Workforce-Analysis-2018-2019.pdf
The NZ Dental council doesn't seem to require additional exams – so long as you have one of the qualifications on the prescribed list.
https://dcnz.org.nz/i-want-to-practise-in-new-zealand/dentists-and-dental-specialists/
Is The Standard now a GP election advertisement?
It seems so.
Or perhaps they/we have not the people doing post/threads on the stuff that Labour is coming out with.
Darien has an author login and can put up posts about Labour Party policy.
There was a Notices and Features post with the Labour Party list last week.
Please read this explanation
https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-07-08-2023/#comment-1963185
My point was not about the placement but about the plethora of Greens policies and I posited that this may be because we don't have the people/posts about Labour matters.
Hopefully that will be rectified once more Labour policy starts coming out.
It is a bit unbalanced at the moment but I am sure that this is timing rather than takeover (to coin a phrase)
Yes I can put up posts, but not so inclined because the Standard is not my go to – used to be. I prefer blogs – there are some beauties with great writing. And I am a bit busy still working for low paid workers to get involved in “my party is better than your party”. Twitter is bad enough.
Always good to get blog recommendations, if you feel like sharing your favourites Darien.
Is it an advertisement when it’s a Labour policy release?
please read this explanation
https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-07-08-2023/#comment-1963185
And the full policy document reveals the depressingly familiar racist lens:
https://assets.nationbuilder.com/beachheroes/pages/18276/attachments/original/1691273205/Health_Full_Policy_Document.pdf?1691273205
Kaupapa Māori Dental Services: $400 million (or $600 Costings columns on Page 16 ambiguous)
Given the recent performance report on Te Aka Whai Ora, this additional funding seems wasteful:
https://www.health.govt.nz/system/files/documents/pages/230505i-hmac-report-final.pdf