I protest against Gaza offensive

200 comments on “I protest against Gaza offensive ”

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1. Tracey 1

   18 July 2014 at 8:59 am

   Sigh!
   • KJT 1.1

     19 July 2014 at 1:13 pm

     http://www.alternet.org/speakeasy/tikkundaily/jew-living-america-past-week-has-changed-me-forever?paging=off&current_page=1
2. Harriet 2

   18 July 2014 at 9:03 am

   “….I urge all NZ politicians and parties not to support the Israeli invasion…..”

   Are you serious?

   No one will stop them. Israel’s new friends at the UN are all African countries as they too, are being invaded by Muslim terrorists.

   Israel is going to occupy the West Bank like Macarther occupied Japan.

   They’re in for the long haul as no one else can give the place security from Hamas and other terror organisations.
   • greywarbler 2.1

     18 July 2014 at 10:02 am

     @ Harriet
     An unfortunate pseudo/name you have for this subject.

     ‘Harry it’ must have been the decision made long ago by Israeli armed forces, who also are in the political seat, when viewing the Palestinian problem. And Hamas now that it seems the most obdurate against the Israeli state bulldozer. (Remember one of their drivers running over a protester with one?)

     Your use of the words ‘terror organisations’ is macabre. I would be in terror from the Israeli decimation of my neighbours and my house and service infrastructure and my land and crops, and even the sky isn’t clear and free because of drones and other flying armaments.

     And when the Gaza side retaliate to show they still exist defiantly, from their weakness, they have rained on them a deluge in a ratio of damage of 1000 to 1.
     • Chooky 2.1.1

       18 July 2014 at 10:11 am

       +100 GW….and I keep thinking about the four little boys playing on the beach….trying to wrest a normal childhood and some joy despite the terror of the might of Israel threatening and confronting their families …blown to smithereens!….It is a disgrace…and I know Jews who also think this!…we must ALL speak out about these ‘crimes against humanity’!
       • freedom 2.1.1.1

         18 July 2014 at 10:49 am

         images from the scene of the attack on the kids at the port
         http://i.imgur.com/ku28eKa.png

         From local news sources it seems the kids were not playing on the beach but collecting metal to sell as scrap, as they do to help their families survive. But at no time has the IDF claimed the children were mistaken for carrying weapons and how could they, as none are visible.

         These children were shot at from aircraft, not by snipers or local police, but from hi tech jet fighters designed to annihilate their enemy. In what world can this be justified?
         • SPC 2.1.1.1.1

           18 July 2014 at 9:09 pm

           The children on the beach were hit by fire from a ship.
           • freedom 2.1.1.1.1.1

             18 July 2014 at 9:29 pm

             thanks for the correction SPC, I obviously got my wires crossed.
             I wasn’t just relying on info off the image. I heard elsewhere the attack was an airstrike. If memory serves it was a [reputable?] MSM source.
             • Colonial Viper …

               19 July 2014 at 5:39 am

               The Israelis have the best optics and sensors available. Multiple surveillance drones overhead. The kids were kicking ball a couple of hundred metres from a hotel international journalists were staying at, on an open, uncluttered beach.

               Therefore the death of the children can have come about solely from deliberate Israeli malice, or utter Israeli incompetence. Given what you know about the skill level, experience and training of the Israeli Offensive Forces, you can pick one.
     • Vicky32 2.1.2

       18 July 2014 at 4:46 pm

       ” they have rained on them a deluge in a ratio of damage of 1000 to 1.”
       As shown by the casualty figures which as of today are 235 Palestinian dead to 1 Israeli. This is appalling.
   • big bruv 2.2

     18 July 2014 at 11:55 am

     Very well said Harriet.
     • One Anonymous Bloke 2.2.1

       18 July 2014 at 12:28 pm

       Sure, the Palestinians will be safe in Israeli hands 🙄
     • the pigman 2.2.2

       18 July 2014 at 9:21 pm

       You know there are many right-wing nutjobs who will defend National, its incompetent suite of Ministers and governance of New Zealand to the hilt, yet still don’t try to defend the indefensible in terms of Israel’s policy towards Palestine. I have to give them credit for that.

       The ones who extend their belligerence to blindly supporting Israel though, give me the absolute creeps. It takes a special kind of psychopath…
   • North 2.3

     18 July 2014 at 1:23 pm

     So let’s all stand and salute Zionist Apartheid shall we Harriet ?

     And then let’s all go down to the nearest beach with four little boy dolls and plant them in the sand head first. Just in commemoration.

     And then take some child members of your family and imprison them with nearly two million others in the patch of land Titirangi to Glendowie and south about 12 kilometres each end. That is Gaza. All 365 square kilometres of it. Let the US funded high-tech ‘shooting-fish-in-a-barrel’ commence.

     And when they’re rushed to hospital……oh sorry, no hospital.

     Until then……you’re a disgusting Zionist-Nazism Exceptionalist. A baggage squatting in a lounge room somewhere draped in the sinister death cloak of Zionist ‘righteousness’.
     • srylands 2.3.1

       18 July 2014 at 5:00 pm

       That is crap. Israel is the only democracy in the region surrounded by psychopaths. If you have been there you will know that the people have a well founded fear of their neighbours doing them harm. If you have not been there I suggest you do so before you pontificate like a left wing 17 year old in a student newspaper – because that is exactly how you read. Israel will destroy or isolate Gaza and occupy the West Bank by force forever.
       • bad12 2.3.1.1

         18 July 2014 at 5:05 pm

         SSLands, only if you consider ‘forever’ to be the next 10–15 years, i fully expect at some stage that the Palestinians and their supporters will overrun Israel at some point in the not too distant future…
         • Gosman 2.3.1.1.1

           18 July 2014 at 5:37 pm

           Unlikely I would suggest given both history over the past 70 years and the state of the Arab world at the moment. That is unlikely to change much in the next 10 to 15 years.
           • Pascals bookie 2.3.1.1.1.1

             18 July 2014 at 8:12 pm

             well, the whole strategy of ‘stability in the middle east’ has taken a pounding over the last decade, thanks largely to policies you supported. Bets are pretty much off. Whatever arises from the wreakage of Iraq Syria and Lebanon will determine what Israel’s neighborhood looks like.

             One thing is for sure is that there are millions of people growing up now in an environment of radicalised sectarian warfare. When the current 18 year-olds hit their late twenties we might find that AQ looked unambitious, and naively simplistic in it’s methods of 4gw. In the same way that we look back on the PLO and the MB now.
             • Gosman …

               19 July 2014 at 5:26 am

               Whatever emerges from the mess in Iraq, Syria and to a lesser extent Egypt is unlikely to be stronger than what was there before and certainly in no position to challenge the Israeli military.
               • Pascals bookie …

                 19 July 2014 at 11:02 am

                 ” unlikely to be stronger than what was there before”

                 in what sense of ‘strong’?

                 “certainly in no position to challenge the Israeli military.”

                 In what sense of ‘challenge’?

                 The ‘what’ that arises from the neocons great plan to remake the middle east will have it’s largest effects not in arsenals, (which aren’t that important in modern warfare, take a look around), but in identity.

                 ISIS will come and go, just as OBL’s band has pretty much gone. But that’s what they do, it’s the new normal, if you like. Each new movement builds on the last, achieves something different and makes the next thing not just possible, but not far from ‘necessary’.

                 Something must replace the states that have become illegitimate. And given that the borders no longer hold the place in the minds that they once did, (which was never as starong as it was here anyway).

                 There is a big difference, for example, between Palestinian refugees demanding a Palestine rather than moving to Jordan, and announcing that they wish to join, or become, an emirate of the Caliphate.

                 Israels plan hasnpt changed, they still play the game of squeezing the moderate pal authorities, and balaming them for not being able to control the radicals. The next lot may not be Palestinian nationalists, like Hamas are.
                 • Colonial Viper …

                   19 July 2014 at 12:54 pm

                   Gossie is quite right though IMO – Israel is absolutely fine with Syria, Iraq and Egypt having been politically fragmented and thrown into disorder. Some commentators have argued that Israel co-operated with Saudi Arabia in some cases as their aims became co-incident i.e. disrupt Persian influence in the ME.
                   • Pascals bookie …

                     19 July 2014 at 2:48 pm

                     Sure they are. They were happy to support Hamas back in the day as a conservative religious alternative to the secular PLO too. Worked swell right?

                     Doesn’t change the facts. The states that are falling apart were no threat to Israel, and haven’t been for 50 odd years. Look at Saudi Arabia. Well equipped military, islamist, rich, no threat whatsoever to Israel because ‘stability’ enriched the rulers and that’s all they care about. Same went for Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Libya.

                     The coming state(s), in whatever form they take, will not be like that. Look at the demographics. Look at their ‘baby boomer’ cohort (much younger than ours, median age through the ME is under 30), and the politics they have grown up under.

                     Violently sectarian, ‘democracy’ hopes discredited, literally battle hardened in internecine war that the west doesn’t even begin to understand the tactics of. We still blather on about air supremacy and training standing armies in the face of the complete failure of either to effect anything faintly resembling victory over the last decade. Fuck, people still saying the surge worked because it reduced violence for a time. derp.

                     They won’t be put back in a box, there’s no box to put them back into, they all got broken.
                   • greywarbler …

                     19 July 2014 at 3:36 pm

                     Pascals Bookie sounds right on. I am sure that people like David Kelly RIP who had spent time trying to understand and inform themselves on the ME, advised against the sort of action that the west has undertaken with the zest of boys reading war comics.

                     And probably boosted by scenarios in computerised war games at the Pentagon and in other blinkered nation sites. Where the goodies win and the baddies run away screaming.

                     Fighting needs energy. People have energy unless they are starved. Then also energy is used in brain impulses, and the emotions of hate, revenge, disgust, rejection and retaliation at their religion and fellows being disrespected, injured and tortured. Then there is the simple desire for freedom from invaders, and to kill the enemy.

                     Oil may run out but the bank of insults and anger has built up so much that it will be irrelevant. Urgent action to stop it increasing is needed but the fascist neo lib machine rolls on because too many people make their money and good money too, from plying these destructive policies. Why change, when the supine usa government makes over to Defence a budget of :-

                     http://useconomy.about.com/od/usfederalbudget/p/military_budget.htm
                     Apr 5, 2014 – The FY 2015 US Military Budget is $495.6 billion, second only to Social Security. The true cost is $738.8 billion.

                     http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/military-spending-cuts/u-s-military-spending-dwarfs-rest-world-n37461
                     The usa spent more on defence in 2012 than the next 10 high spending
                     countries spent on defence combined.

                     http://www.globalresearch.ca/us-wars-in-afghanistan-iraq-to-cost-6-trillion/5350789
                     US Wars in Afghanistan, Iraq to Cost $6 trillion | Global …
                     http://www.globalresearch.ca/us-wars-in-afghanistan-iraq…trillion/5350789
                     Feb 12, 2014 – It asserts: “Another major share of the long-term costs of the wars comes from paying off trillions of dollars in debt incurred as the US government failed to include …

                     US to Spend $1 Trillion on Nukes | The Diplomat
                     thediplomat.com/2014/01/us-to-spend-1-trillion-on-nukes/
                     by Zachary Keck – Jan 8, 2014 – The U.S. will spend $1 trillion over the next 30 years maintaining and ..
       • freedom 2.3.1.2

         18 July 2014 at 5:53 pm

         Q: what are they like dealing with free speech by Jews inside Israel?
         • freedom 2.3.1.2.1

           19 July 2014 at 10:26 am

           Here is a young American Jewish guy not being violent or aggressive just saying his piece for peace and whammo!
           Arrested and hauled away
           
       • Daveosaurus 2.3.1.3

         18 July 2014 at 6:52 pm

         “Israel is the only democracy in the region”

         False. To name but one country in the region, Turkey is more democratic than Israel.
       • Pascals bookie 2.3.1.4

         18 July 2014 at 9:34 pm

         “Israel is the only democracy in the region surrounded by psychopaths.”

         “a well founded fear of their neighbours doing them harm”

         “Israel will destroy or isolate Gaza and occupy the West Bank by force forever.”

         Hmmm.

         If they are to occupy the west bank forever, as the current PM claims is necessary, then the claim that they are democracy and not some sort of apartheid state becomes pretty hard to defend.

         Also, it in turn fully justifies Palestinian militancy, does it not? Would not Palestinians also have “a well founded fear of their neighbours doing them harm”?

         Crap indeed.
         • Colonial Viper 2.3.1.4.1

           19 July 2014 at 5:28 am

           Not just a fear that their vastly more powerful neighbour wants to do them harm; its a grim daily reality.
     • SPC 2.3.2

       18 July 2014 at 9:11 pm

       There are hospitals in Gaza.
     • Fear all 2.3.3

       22 July 2014 at 10:34 pm

       In my life time the shock of the 6 day war in 1967 was enough to let me know that we are looking at modern day FASCISM TREAD CAREFULLY
       because our protests are on very dangerous territory that being our own conscience in speaking out against the Zionist rot that has been supported by all the powers that are in our history and how complicent have we been in supporting it thru history ? without damaging ourselves in the eyes of the oppressed in this war
   • Murray Olsen 2.4

     19 July 2014 at 2:34 am

     Does the training to be a Hasbara agent take very long? Is the pay good?

     The worst terror organisations in the area are Mossad, Shin Beth, the IDF, Likud, the even further right parties, and the settlers organisations. No one can give Israelis security from these except themselves. A disease is infecting their society and its name is fascism. I am on the side of the Israelis and other Jews who recognise this, the side of the Palestinians who are being murdered, and the side of humanity.

     I am boycotting Israeli goods. I am still considering a full boycott of Israeli academia. The Zionists running things now are like the AWB in South Africa. Netanyahu is as bad as Terreblanche. South African apartheid was stopped, and Israeli apartheid will be as well.
3. Tiger Mountain 3

   18 July 2014 at 9:05 am

   C’mon Aucklanders, show solidarity with the Palestinians–2pm, tomorrow (Sat 19th) Aotea Square, other centres check your networks.
   http://auckland.scoop.co.nz/2014/07/olive-branch-march-to-protest-israeli-brutality-in-gaza/

   People around the world are saying that Israel’s butchery must stop.
   https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153067675439546&set=gm.171106636392903&type=1&theater
   • karol 3.1

     18 July 2014 at 9:10 am

     Thanks, TM. Will add it to the post.
     • Chooky 3.1.1

       18 July 2014 at 10:12 am

       Great Post karol…thankyou !
   • Hutty 3.2

     18 July 2014 at 5:35 pm

     It will be the same ‘rent a crowd’ protesters who turn up to every protest and that will put the majority of Aucklanders most off. The only thing the police should bring is water hoses to give ‘rent a crowd’ its first shower in months
     • blue leopard 3.2.1

       18 July 2014 at 5:50 pm

       Aww look a wee Key clone how sad there are people in this country that are so devoid of the ability to think for themselves that their only response is to slavishly play ‘copy The Leader’.

       I guess freedom is either misunderstood or considered to be over-rated by some.
     • One Anonymous Bloke 3.2.2

       19 July 2014 at 7:03 am

       Oh look, a right winger labeling people then advocating violence against them 🙄
       • Gosman 3.2.2.1

         19 July 2014 at 7:38 am

         Left wingers are just as capable of the same. Your place on the political spectrum is usually no indicator of whether you are a douchebag or not.
         • One Anonymous Bloke 3.2.2.1.1

           19 July 2014 at 3:33 pm

           Paging Drs. Hodson & Busseri. Paging Dr. Piff.
4. ianmac 4

   18 July 2014 at 9:45 am

   Listening to the effect on the families of the tragic deaths in the Canterbury car crash I thought how this must be for the families in Gaza when they too loose family members to unnecessary violence. Mums. Dads. Kids including babies. Theirs is tragic as well and there is nowhere to run to.
   • Chooky 4.1

     18 July 2014 at 11:47 am

     +100…yes agreed ianmac …but it is worse for the Palestinians and their children because ” there is nowhere to run to”….and the Israelis are doing this deliberately…it is no accident!.

     By Robert Fisk:

     “Israel-Gaza conflict: Medical charity likens work to ‘patching up torture victims in an open-air prison
     Comments by senior Médecins Sans Frontières official expose ethical dilemma of humanitarian work in conflict zones”……..

     http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/israelgaza-conflict-medical-charity-likens-work-to-patching-up-torture-victims-in-an-openair-prison-9613296.html
   • North 4.2

     18 July 2014 at 1:39 pm

     Hah ! Major difference here Ianmac. Palestinians are not actually human, or if minimally so, much much less so. Wipe out 70 times as many in 10 days, injure thousands ?

     “Hmmm…….noted. Though I have to say……when you elect terrorists to govern you……..”

     “Oh did you see all those poor people at that wedding in Tel Aviv scrambling for cover when the sirens started……” Imagine it !
5. Jenny 5

   18 July 2014 at 10:05 am

   The British Conservative Prime Minister David Cameron accurately described Gaza as the world’s largest prison camp.

   In Gaza the racists that run Israel have trapped over a million virtually defenceless Palestinians leaving them no possible escape, Latest reports are of Israeli ground troops targeting the tunnels under the border of Isael’s ally Egypt, to finally closed Gazan’s sole access to the world beyond Israel’s borders.

   If the South Africa Apartheid Regime in a last bid to cling to power, had bombed and invaded and murdered their way through their artificially created Bantustans, as the Israeli Apartheid regime is doing now to the enclosed artificial enclave they have made of Gaza, they would have been condemned by the world. There would have been no sympathetic one sided propaganda about the right of the regime to defend itself from the “terrorists” led by Nelson Mandela.
   • Chooky 5.1

     18 July 2014 at 10:13 am

     +100 Jenny
   • freedom 5.2

     18 July 2014 at 10:37 am

     Here is an excellent CrossTalk episode on Gaza exposing the Israeli talking points for the fundamental lies that they are. Hamas did not start this offensive. Hamas and the people who deal daily with the big International politics of the situation established an environment where peace could be discussed. Israel refused to talk peace. Two days later three Israeli teens died in circumstances Israel still refuses to let anyone investigate the true details of. These are facts.
     http://rt.com/shows/crosstalk/171904-israel-assault-gaza-strip/
     • Rosie 5.2.1

       18 July 2014 at 11:27 am

       One very disturbing aspect of the current military strikes against Palestine is the lack of evidence of who killed the three Jewish boys, Israel’s inability to prove it was Hamas and their reluctance to allow investigation.

       Thats an excellent interview btw. Anyone who missed it last week should view it. Our media should view it.
   • Gosman 5.3

     18 July 2014 at 10:56 am

     Yes and the reason people aren’t treating this the same as apartheid South Africa is because it is a different situation with a differently level of complexity.
     • freedom 5.3.1

       18 July 2014 at 11:33 am

       Maybe you should share your no-apartheid theory with the tens of thousands of Ethiopian Jews living in Israel.
       • Gosman 5.3.1.1

         18 July 2014 at 11:41 am

         The same Ethiopian Jews the State of Israel organised an airlift to get them out of Ethiopia in the 1980’s do you mean? I am sure some Jewish people would treat them appallingly just as I am sure some non Europeans get treated appallingly in places like Australia and New Zealand. However are you suggesting there is official discrimination against them?
         • freedom 5.3.1.1.1

           18 July 2014 at 11:57 am

           Is there an official edict or body of law I can point you to saying these people are denied the same laws that other settlers enjoy, no of course not. That is not how Israel does things. The same way that Indonesia never officially claimed it was legal for its troops to systematically kill anyone they chose to in East Timor when they illegally invaded that country.

           You support Israel, we get it.
           You support the unjust imprisonment and destruction of a sovereign people.
           Your argument’s stake is firmly positioned in a ground filled with the corpses of children.

           But I hope you try to learn about the potential this world is destroying with views like yours.

           Peace be with you.
           • Gosman 5.3.1.1.1.1

             18 July 2014 at 12:34 pm

             Then it isn’t the same as Apartheid as that was the law in South Africa that set up one law for one group and another law for a different group based on race.
             • Jenny …

               18 July 2014 at 2:15 pm

               @Gosman

               Black South Africans who I have met and who had lived the experience of being at sharp end of South African Apartheid, and who also have some knowledge of what is going on in Israel, have told me that from their experience Israeli apartheid is worse.

               Israel has lots of different race based laws for Palestinians, in fact they rarely even use the term Palestinian, referring to the native people of the region as “Arabs”, implying that they are a nomadic people with no roots to the land, (and therefore no citizenship rights). This logic has been used to justify the wholesale house demolitions, olive grove bulldozing, land grabbing, and evictions of Palestinians from their ancestral homelands. This is the same sort of moral (immoral) justification that was used to justify apartheid in South Africa. White South Africans even had to the gall just as the Israelis do to claim that they were the first to ever settle there. And that this gave them the right the treat the blacks as foreigners giving them no legal rights in South Africa itself but corralling them tiny enclosed areas known as Bantustans. Ask yourself Gosman, How different are Gaza and the Westbank to Bantustans?

               If you were honest Gosman you would have to conclude that the Israeli version of Bantustans are worse.

               http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bantustan
               • srylands …

                 18 July 2014 at 2:26 pm

                 I have not been to Gaza, but I understand it is a shit hole.

                 On the other hand I have been to the West Bank, and it was fine.
                 • North …

                   18 July 2014 at 3:55 pm

                   SSLands. Shithead. Section off 365 square kilometres of the Gold Coast (that is Gaza – 365 square kilometres). Increase the population of that sectioned off portion of the Gold Coast to nearly 2 million. Blockade that sectioned off portion of the Gold Coast for six years. Bomb the shit out of it every couple of years.

                   I daresay you’d find that sectioned off portion of the Gold Coast WOULD be a shit hole.

                   It says everything about you that you reduce it all to the level of a travel guide. You truly are insane. Shithead.
                 • Jenny …

                   18 July 2014 at 4:45 pm

                   “I have not been to Gaza, but I understand it is a shit hole.”

                   srylands

                   Well I been to Gaza, and apart from the destruction wrought by the Israelis it is beautiful, the people were welcoming kind and brave. Every single person I met there had at least one member of their family killed or wounded by Israeli violence.

                   Many spoke English and were well educated, they told me that this is important to them to try and get their message out to the world. There were few jobs due to the Israeli blockade which not only stops imports into the territory but also bans exports. But I did see municipal workers, in white overalls cleaning and tidying the streets. I saw smashed and bombed factories and farms. (Infrastructure being a particular target of the Israelis). Water bores and pumping stations for irrigation were particularly hard hit. I met a chicken farmer whose thousands of chickens and all the buildings housing them had been destroyed, all he could show me was the long concrete pads on which his chicken houses had once stood, now swept clean. Livestock had been another target of the Israelis. I met a beef farmer whose herd had been targetted by Israeli tank fire and wiped out. (though some replacement livestock had been smuggled in through the tunnels). I toured a new waste water treatment facility rebuilt by the UN after the original one was destroyed in operation cast lead. I lifted my camera to take a photo, which caused a bit of panic as this particular water treatment plant was near the border and my guides told me that the Israeli soldiers on the border regularly shoot people who take photos that near the border. I saw a ground up graveyard that had been used as a parking lot for the invading Israeli tanks.

                   When I was in Gaza it was relatively peaceful apart from the Israeli jets that regularly buzzed the city. Though there was a bombing run on the tunnels on the Egyptian border which I was told was a regular occurrance as the Israelis tried to close the Palestinians only lifeline to the outside world.

                   I stayed in a high rise hotel on the waterfront, the lifts didn’t work and the stairwell was full of bullet holes, having once been stormed by invading Israeli. soldiers. Only salt water came out of the taps and shower heads. Next to my hotel there were these large bare concrete pads where other high rise buildings had once stood before being blasted to the ground by the Israelis. One very notable thing was the way that the Palestinians tried to clean up the ruins and rebuild their city, I saw groups of Palestinians in the mounds of rubble, breaking up the concrete with sledge hammers and while others carefully straightened the recovered reinforcing steel with little hand held pipe benders. I saw people in the street with donkey carts loading up their carts with bits of concrete and steel which I was told the “municipality” gave them a small recovery fee. (The democratically elected government Gaza of course being Hamas, but I never heard them being referred to as that, they were just referred to as the “Municipality”). A lot of the rubble cleaned from the damaged buildings and factories was taken to a huge central site, which I can only describe as an enormous almost medieval looking hive of human activity, that is, apart from some big dump trucks delivering even more rubble and a few furiously industrious hydraulic diggers busy breaking up the bigger concrete blocks. My guides told me that everything had to be recycled because of the Israeli blockade which prevented any building materials entering the city.

                   The efforts of the Palestinians labouring to rebuild their city amidst war and destruction and loss is a testimony to the human spirit.

                   Resistance can take many forms, and though sryland’s racist mates are trying to murder and starve the citizens of Gaza in an attempt to turn their city into a “shit hole”, as he puts it. One day it again will be one of the greatest cities on the Mediterranean. And in fact it is now, one of the representatives of the “Municipality” told me that we that through what we do here we could lead the world in sustainability and recycling.
                 • Murray Olsen …

                   19 July 2014 at 2:47 am

                   Did they let you bulldoze olive trees, SSlands? Did you get to fondle an Uzi? You really are beneath contempt, you piece of shit.
               • Gosman …

                 18 July 2014 at 3:55 pm

                 We aren’t discussing Palestinians. We were discussing Ethiopian Jews. As for the Palestinians (non Israeli Arabs), of course they will be treated differently given they are not Israeli citizens and live in areas largely outside Israeli civilian control . You would have a case for discrimination against Israeli Arabs but they aren’t treated anywhere near as badly as South African non Europeans were during Apartheid.
                 • Jenny …

                   18 July 2014 at 5:03 pm

                   As for the Palestinians (non Israeli Arabs), of course they will be treated differently given they are not Israeli citizens and live in areas largely outside Israeli civilian control .

                   Gosman

                   But that’s just it Gosman, they are under illegal occupation by the Israeli military aided and abbetted by paramilitary racist settler groups. The illegal settlements in the occupied zones are inhabited by Zionist extremists and directly funded by the Israeli government and indirectly by the US.
                   • Gosman …

                     18 July 2014 at 5:40 pm

                     Yes. Congratulations on identifying one of the major problems. The difficult part is trying to get a solution acceptable to both sides. You are unlikely to force Israelis in to accepting a solution they deem a threat to their existence.
                 • Daveosaurus …

                   18 July 2014 at 6:53 pm

                   “We aren’t discussing Palestinians.”

                   Read the headline again. Gaza is in Palestine.
     • North 5.3.2

       18 July 2014 at 2:07 pm

       No Grossman. Talking for the world again. That is you treating this as distinguishable. Nelson Mandela certainly did not. You have taken hook line and sinker the propaganda of the Israeli Foreign Ministry……a more excellent Goebbels undertaking than money could buy.

       As if money were a problem. The US continues to pay to Zionist Israel more than THREE THOUSAND MILLION US DOLLARS A YEAR in military aid. And turns a blind eye to its application, including nuclear. Until the application betrays a blood lust. Upon which the US routinely reproaches the ‘disproportionate’ behaviour of its psychopathic child, helpfully urges restraint, and offers mediation services. Until next time when again they turn a blind eye. Wipe the blood from your hands America. So as to piously maintain the charade.

       Simple fact is Zionist Israeli is a Nazi state led by Neo-Nazi Bejamin NatziYahoo, backed up by Obama as the latest in a succession of US presidents similarly engaged. The Oppressed turned Oppressors. And a disgrace to the memory of their oppressed. Were their roots not Zionist they’d have fallen right into line 75 years ago.
     • Morrissey 5.3.3

       18 July 2014 at 8:15 pm

       Yes and the reason people aren’t treating this the same as apartheid South Africa is because it is a different situation with a differently level of complexity.

       It’s unfair to compare Israel to apartheid South Africa. Israel is a far harsher, far more merciless regime.
       • SPC 5.3.3.1

         18 July 2014 at 9:47 pm

         All Arabs have the vote in Israel – it’s just that they are a minority and powerless. Palestinians have a different territory for their own state, it’s just that they have yet to effect it.
         • Puddleglum 5.3.3.1.1

           18 July 2014 at 11:32 pm

           Hi SPC,

           It’s a bit more complicated than that, as Nadia Ben-Youssef explains here:

           “Even a brief look at the history of Palestinian citizens of Israel, who make up 20 percent of the population, exposes Israel’s entrenched system of privilege, exclusion and inequality. After the Nakba in 1948, although the overwhelming majority of Palestinians became refugees, some 150,000 Palestinians remained in their homeland, becoming a minority in Israel. From 1948 until 1966, these Palestinians lived under a military regime, subject to permits and curfews, and witnessed the legalized confiscation of the vast majority of their land; this despite the fact they were granted Israeli citizenship in 1952. Significantly, this Citizenship Law created the unique bifurcation between citizenship and nationality whereby one’s citizenship is Israeli, but one’s nationality is either Jewish, Arab, Druze or “Other.” As there is no guaranteed right to equality enshrined in Israeli law (nothing like the US Constitution’s “equal protection clause”), the government often applies different policies and standards to citizens on the basis of ethnic or national belonging. To date, more than fifty laws have been passed that restrict Palestinian citizens’ rights in all areas of life.

           The discrimination is not only severe, as Chomsky describes, but institutional and ideologically prescribed. Thus, when the Arab political leadership in Israel calls for a “state for all of its citizens,” they and their parties face attempts to disqualify them from participating in the Knesset under the argument that such demands contradict the constitutional values of Israel as a “Jewish and democratic” state. Just as in the OPT, the Israeli regime within the Green Line is predicated on inequality and permeated with racism. It is this reality that Palestinians and their allies are aiming to change, and it is this that demands our attention.“
6. greywarbler 6

   18 July 2014 at 10:11 am

   Listening to the news this morning about the awful damage and loss of the Malaysian flight connected with rockets from the Ukraine area, supposedly sourced from Russia.

   Then thinking about the awful damage and loss in Palestine connected with armaments from the Israeli area, supposedly sourced from USA or companies connected with the USA.

   There seems a parallel between the two examples.
   • Gosman 6.1

     18 July 2014 at 11:01 am

     Most Israeli armaments and munitions are most likely sourced within Israel. It is is usually the higher end of the armament spectrum that the US provides equipment (e.g. fighter planes).
     • freedom 6.1.1

       18 July 2014 at 11:29 am

       Gosman, you seem to be suggesting Israel is some sort of low level arms manufacturer barely able to build a potato gun. Are you aware that Israel designs and manufactures many of the world’s most widely used targeting, guidance and detonation technologies? Not to mention their leadership in military Drone technologies. Technologies that the US and many other Governments willingly purchase.
       • Gosman 6.1.1.1

         18 July 2014 at 11:35 am

         Actually I’m suggesting the opposite. The majority of the munitions and armaments being used in Gaza is likely being sourced from Israeli arms manufacturers rather than US. It is one of the reasons why an arms boycott of Israel is unlikely to be very effective.
         • One Anonymous Bloke 6.1.1.1.1

           19 July 2014 at 2:39 pm

           Over the period 2008-19, the US is set to provide military aid to Israel worth $30bn, while Israeli annual military exports to the world have reached billions of dollars.

           Reality check.

           Israel has no iron deposits. Just saying.
       • greywarbler 6.1.1.2

         18 July 2014 at 8:47 pm

         @freedom
         Thanks for that info. I wasn’t aware that Israel was such a big armaments pusher.
         Seems usa and Israel are pretty synergistic.
         • freedom 6.1.1.2.1

           18 July 2014 at 9:37 pm

           You know the gun that shoots around corners ?
           That’s one of theirs.
       • Morrissey 6.1.1.3

         19 July 2014 at 7:51 am

         Israel tests its arms on live targets. Live human targets.
     • North 6.1.2

       18 July 2014 at 3:36 pm

       Oh I am sorry. I stand corrected Grossman…….it’s ONLY the high-tech fighter jets that IDF Nazis deploy in the righteous ‘shooting fish in a barrel’ in Gaza that the US gifts/pays for. And there’s no change out of Washington’s annual $US three billion military aid/encouragement I take it ?

       Excellent ! I must henceforth coach myself to honour your psychopathic cognitive dissonance. And to be moved, and won over, and not despise your splendid rationalisations of Naziism in action.

       And I’ll try to be won over too when you come back weirdly explaining that these fighter jets aren’t actually all that high-tech and they’re ex-USAir Force……and you know…….second hand. I might be tested bad me but I hope I can find within myself the decency to manfully apologise to the psychopath. Again.
       • Gosman 6.1.2.1

         18 July 2014 at 5:42 pm

         Equating the situation in Palestine and Israel with Nazism is not going to be very productive in my view. It is also not accurate.
         • Colonial Viper 6.1.2.1.1

           18 July 2014 at 8:08 pm

           It seems to me the Israeli power elite have learnt quite the wrong lessons from the Nazis. So it’s actually a pretty accurate and useful discussion to have. Especially with regards to the visceral political hate Israelis have of Palestinians that they are willing to ghettoize an entire people, crush attempts at free movement and economic activity, half starve half of the population within the ghetto, then apply collective punishment to the entire population using full military force.

           Even more interesting is Israel’s creation of an apartheid state where Palestinians are persecuted second class citizens limited in rights and employment, and certainly unable to marry any Jew.
           • SPC 6.1.2.1.1.1

             18 July 2014 at 9:39 pm

             There is no ban on Palestinians and Israeli Jews marrying.

             The state of Israel has no civil marriage – thus there are only Jewish, Christian and Moslem marriages. Many Israelis are forced to marry outside Israel.

             There is a problem when Israeli Arabs marry Palestinians as the Palestinian may not be allowed to live in Israel.
             • Colonial Viper …

               18 July 2014 at 9:53 pm

               Ok that is a much more informed and correct description of the situation. Thank you.
           • Gosman 6.1.2.1.1.2

             19 July 2014 at 5:21 am

             Have you ever tried to understand why the Israelis have an issue with the Arabs? I’m not meaning the rabid Zionist settler bloc either but your average Israeli citizen. Remember a lot of Israelis are as left wing as you are.
             • Colonial Viper …

               19 July 2014 at 5:44 am

               Except they keep voting in hard line right wing militarist political parties into power, as well as war criminal former military offices.
             • One Anonymous Bloke …

               19 July 2014 at 2:50 pm

               Left wing Israeli parties are calling for peace and land concessions. Right wing parties, not so much.
   • BLiP 6.2

     18 July 2014 at 7:48 pm

     ‘

     I’m not sure there’s a parallel as much as there is a glaring dichotomy in the way the two tragedies are being portrayed and dealt with. When it comes to the slow-motion massacre of Palestinian innocents, where is the wall-to-wall media coverage, where is the earnest quest to find facts and speak truth, where are the world’s politicians united in their condemnation of the killers and the resolve to sort things out? Sure, more and more people are starting to “get” that Israel is a terrorist state, but its no thanks to those who should know better, can teach the rest of us, and can actually do something about it. Palestine is no threat to the international airline industry, doesn’t provide politicians with an opportunity for trite sound-bites, requires more intellectual fire-power than the MSM is able to deliver, and, alas, doesn’t generate sufficient outrage to merit the application of international justice and the enforcement of the stated will of the United Nations.
7. freedom 7

   18 July 2014 at 10:12 am

   even if you put a machine gun into the hand of the child and had him wearing a grenade belt whilst strapped up as a suicide bomber it still shows what Palestine faces more clearly than a thousand press releases ever could
   https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BsXH6vvCUAAsdKM.jpg:large
8. Rosie 8

   18 July 2014 at 10:26 am

   I hope Aucklanders turn out en masse to stand with Palestine in solidarity tomorrow. It’s good too that the march will take in the Herald offices and TVNZ to protest against bias in the reporting of the conflict.

   I think Morrissey mentioned a few days ago there was an action in the UK, supported by John Pilger, Ken Loach and another well known person (sorry, I forget the name of the third person) against the BBC for the same reasons.

   Some of you may feel cynical about signing petitions and see it as nothing more that clicktivism but for those willing to give it a go there is an AVAAZ petition calling on certain companies and banks to stop supplying and trading with Israel. The link is from the net, the one in my inbox was far more detailed and goes into how those companies eg, hewlett packard and caterpillar are working with Israel to support their military action against Palestine. I couldn’t copy and paste from my email because my name is in the content, so heres the condensed version:

   https://secure.avaaz.org/en/gaza_this_is_how_it_ends_slold_imnew1/?wjowhcb
   • freedom 8.1

     18 July 2014 at 10:31 am

     Of course neither TVNZ or the Herald will likely mention it.
     Like the BBC forgot to cover this London story about a protest against their bias.
     http://rt.com/uk/173044-bbc-protest-gaza-uk/
     • Rosie 8.1.1

       18 July 2014 at 11:13 am

       Thats right freedom, no point holdings one’s breath to see if our media will cover the criticism directed at them.

       The protests in the link you provided were large, loud and energetic. Kinda hard to ignore you’d think. I liked the comment “British Brainwashing Corporation”
       • Gosman 8.1.1.1

         18 July 2014 at 11:46 am

         And yet the BBC is the State controlled media organisation that many leftists seem to want to emulate in NZ.
         • Colonial Viper 8.1.1.1.1

           18 July 2014 at 9:55 pm

           “State control” an irrelevancy. Its in the control of the power elite and parrots their chosen narratives.
           • Gosman 8.1.1.1.1.1

             19 July 2014 at 5:29 am

             I would suggest you are unlikely to change that very easily without massively inferring with its independence. Of course I suspect that you are happy with doing that as you don’t really want a free and independent media. You just want a media you can control.
             • Colonial Viper …

               19 July 2014 at 5:41 am

               Yep. Control with enforcement of actual standards of journalism and editing.
               • Gosman …

                 19 July 2014 at 7:42 am

                 Every despot I have seen controls the media for that same reason – to control standards.
                 • One Anonymous Bloke …

                   19 July 2014 at 2:57 pm

                   Despots throw professional journalistic standards out of the window, on Planet Gosman standards are despotism.

                   Or is despotism a typical red herring introduced in bad faith?
   • Tiger Mountain 8.2

     18 July 2014 at 11:34 am

     AVAAZ is large enough and consistent enough to be taken seriously imo, am a regular clicker of AVAAZ campaigns.

     For the previous Apartheid state a combination of internal action and international solidarity support built up unstoppable momentum for change, but it was economic pressure that was crucial in the end. Smart Boycotts as advocated will likely work on Israel too.
9. Chooky 9

   18 July 2014 at 11:37 am

   ‘Today – we are all Palestinians’

   By John Minto / July 18, 2014

   For 66 years the Palestinian people have been brutalised by an apartheid Israeli government. The ground offensive begun this morning is just a continuation of murder and mayhem Israel has visited upon Palestinians every day since 1948.

   For example on average every three days over the past 13 years a Palestinian child had been murdered by Israel. You’d never know that reading our mainstream media which are little more than propaganda mouthpieces for Israel just as the media were once propaganda outlets for the racist white South African government.

   The firing of rockets from Gaza into Israel has never been the issue. They are a symptom of the real problem which is Israel’s brutal military occupation of the West Bank; its medieval siege of Gaza; its on-going theft of Palestinian land; its apartheid wall; its murder of Palestinians on a daily basis…

   The only thing for humanity to celebrate from all this is the heroism of the Palestinian people. Their spirit ofindomitable determination and resistance will win through in the end.

   Our job in New Zealand is to stand squarely with the Palestinian people and isolate the apartheid Israeli government and its vile and inhuman policies and practices.

   Let’s show the brutal bullies that we stand with Palestinians.

   We are all Palestinians!

   • See more at: http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/07/18/today-we-are-all-palestinians/#sthash.whjvvB3y.dpuf
10. Mainlander 10

    18 July 2014 at 11:49 am

    If the Palestines/Hamas know this will be the outcome of firing missiles into Israel day after day wouldnt logic dictate that if they stopped, then surely Israel would as well, i just dont get continuing to poke the bear when the consequences end up the same as always
    • karol 10.1

      18 July 2014 at 11:58 am

      You make it sound as if the Hamas rockets started the protest. The Israelis say, any country would retaliate against something like the Hamas rockets.

      Palestinians put up with the harsh treatment, persecution and stealth of land, homes etc, along with various kinds of personal destruction and brutality, often resulting in death/murder. Using the above Israeli logic, wouldn’t any country retaliate (against such brutality as dished out by the Israeli regime) with rockets or anything they can muster?
    • One Anonymous Bloke 10.2

      18 July 2014 at 12:12 pm

      There are peaceful voices on both sides being drowned out by an outpouring of right wing dogma and bigotry.
    • emergency mike 10.3

      18 July 2014 at 12:23 pm

      So you’d advise them to just roll over and accept whatever brutal oppression and injustice that Israel hands out to them? Do us all a favour and educate yourself before making such vapid comments. Here you go – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRMTeYdGnvw
    • framu 10.4

      18 July 2014 at 12:34 pm

      If the Israelies know that ineffective rocket attacks that kill virtually no-one will be the outcome of launching air strikes and bombing orphanages, schools and homes for the disabled day after day wouldnt logic dictate that if they stopped, then surely Hamas would as well, i just dont get continuing to poke the bear when the consequences end up the same as always

      yes its bad that hamas launch rockets into civillian populations – i think we can all agree that its not a good thing, but these pro israeli arguments are staggering in their one sided and hateful attitude towards other humans
11. One Anonymous Bloke 11

    18 July 2014 at 12:16 pm

    Anyone who supports National Party policy towards drone strikes has no business judging Hamas or Israel.
12. alex 12

    18 July 2014 at 12:18 pm

    And of course the rockets sent from Hamas mostly are fired from Hospitals and Schools, they wonder why the return Rockets land in exactly the same places.I see fault on both sides but I get tired of the Palestinians on the news every night parading the wounded and crying in only the way they can. Hamas stop firing back and show you can be peaceful or are you just another terrorist organisation fronting as a Government.
    • One Anonymous Bloke 12.1

      18 July 2014 at 1:08 pm

      Take a look at the way the map of Palestine (what’s left of it) has changed over the last forty years. What do governments normally do when neighbouring countries invade their land?

      We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender…
      • Gosmen 12.1.1

        18 July 2014 at 2:21 pm

        Weird you mention that because the UK land mass was largely untouched by the Germans during WWII beyond the air attacks and occupation of the Channel Islands. Yet they responded in kind with a massive sustained bombing campaign against German cities.
        • One Anonymous Bloke 12.1.1.1

          18 July 2014 at 2:56 pm

          Whereas it’s the similarity between Churchill’s rhetoric and Hamas’ actions I’m calling attention to, and the double standards of people who approve of bombing a wedding to kill one “high profile target” but then condemn Hamas rocket fire as beyond the pale.

          Armchair ghouls.
    • Colonial Viper 12.2

      18 July 2014 at 1:23 pm

      And of course the rockets sent from Hamas mostly are fired from Hospitals and Schools, they wonder why the return Rockets land in exactly the same places.

      Nope. Hamas is smarter than that – they know how to keep the local populace on their side and avoid locating their arms in this way where possible – especially as they know that the Israelis have no compunction against hitting civilian targets like schools and hospitals anyway.

      I see fault on both sides but I get tired of the Palestinians on the news every night parading the wounded and crying in only the way they can.

      There are dozens of Palestinian dead and wounded every day. Of course they are crying.

      There has been only 1 Israeli death so far.

      This is not “war” this is a massacre.
      • Chooky 12.2.1

        18 July 2014 at 2:12 pm

        +100 ..”This is not “war” this is a massacre”..or genocide
        • Gosmen 12.2.1.1

          18 July 2014 at 2:23 pm

          Genocide suggests an organised campaign fron one group to reduce the numbers of another group significantly so as to eventually wipe them out. How has the Palestinian population in the Gaza stip fallen significantly?
          • One Anonymous Bloke 12.2.1.1.1

            18 July 2014 at 2:44 pm

            How about you look up the definition of genocide rather than poisoning the water, Gosman?

            Hint: it doesn’t have to be successful to qualify.
            • Gosman 12.2.1.1.1.1

              18 July 2014 at 4:04 pm

              It is an organised effort to wipe out a particular group. I am arguing that the Israelis could quite easily wipe out the Palestinians if they so desired. They cleared out large sections from the State of Israel when it was founded and they are much stronger militarily now than they were then. The fact that there hasn’t been a significant reduction in the Arab population of both the Occupied territories AND in Israel proper (in fact the opposit has occured) would suggest to me that there can’t be an organised effort to wipe them out because the Israelis tend to follow through on any plan they implement.
              • One Anonymous Bloke …

                18 July 2014 at 4:13 pm

                And yet the practical effect of Israeli-Palestinian hostility has been the virtual ethnic cleansing of large swathes of Palestine, whether you count from 1948, 1967, 2000 or today. Meanwhile Israeli politicians openly promote full scale genocide.

                The longer two enemies fight, the closer they resemble one another.

                What you ‘would’ think about that is of little concern to me, let alone them.
              • Psycho Milt …

                18 July 2014 at 4:19 pm

                I suspect that would be an irony too far even for the Netanjahu government…
13. srylands 13

    18 July 2014 at 12:49 pm

    There was a welcome rally for peace in Midland Park at lunchtime. Pity about the weather which resulted in a small turn out.

    http://www.nzfoi.org/ai1ec_event/peace-rally-midland-park-wellington/
    • One Anonymous Bloke 13.1

      18 July 2014 at 1:12 pm

      Were there any calls for Israel to stop illegally occupying land?
    • Murray Olsen 13.2

      19 July 2014 at 3:16 am

      That’s not a rally for peace. That’s a rally in support of whatever Netanyahu feels like doing. Peace would not be the result of Gaza surrendering. The Zionists will not stop until they have everything. They need to be stopped.
14. infused 14

    18 July 2014 at 2:01 pm

    Well Hamas fired after the truce… What do you expect…

    They rejected the truce.
    • Chooky 14.1

      18 July 2014 at 2:18 pm

      “They rejected the truce”….Meaning?….

      …from a brutalised downtrodden subjugated people alienated and barred from their original homelands, a sling shot act of defiance ( David)

      …against an armed-to-the teeth, nuclear power, aggressor and homeland invader and usurper ( Goliath)
      • Gosmen 14.1.1

        18 July 2014 at 2:26 pm

        Are you suggesting that the Palestinians should be able to return to the lands they had pre 1948? Do you also think the Germans should be allowed to return to the lands they lived in for centuries pre the end of WWII?
        • One Anonymous Bloke 14.1.1.1

          18 July 2014 at 2:49 pm

          Why 1948? Why not 1967? cf. Ismail Haniyeh.

          As usual, the answer is: because Gosman consistently argues in bad faith.
          • Gosman 14.1.1.1.1

            18 July 2014 at 3:10 pm

            Why do you use 1967 instead of 1948 as your basis point?
            • One Anonymous Bloke 14.1.1.1.1.1

              18 July 2014 at 3:37 pm

              I didn’t suggest it as a basis point any more than Chooky suggested 1948.
        • Chooky 14.1.1.2

          18 July 2014 at 3:48 pm

          @ Gosman “Are you suggesting that the Palestinians should be able to return to the lands they had pre 1948?”

          ….Yes ( although I did not suggest this and 1967 would be a good starting point)

          …and seems like Einstein would agree on 1948! ( really the Israeli government has let Jews down very badly!)

          http://www.newdemocracyworld.org/old/Einstein.htm

          http://www.indypendent.org/2009/05/14/reclaiming-einstein/

          Your equating Palestinians with Nazisim is a false and mischievous equivalence
          • One Anonymous Bloke 14.1.1.2.1

            18 July 2014 at 3:57 pm

            Hamas leaders have suggested 1967 as recently as 2008.
            • Chooky 14.1.1.2.1.1

              18 July 2014 at 4:03 pm

              so they are reasonable and moderates
              • One Anonymous Bloke …

                18 July 2014 at 4:06 pm

                Erm no. I don’t think right-wing Semitic murderous animosity towards fellow Semites is the sole fault of the Palestinians though: too many hate schools preaching the Protocols.
          • One Anonymous Bloke 14.1.1.2.2

            18 July 2014 at 4:04 pm

            The link between right wing Palestinian groups and Nazism is not just a historical artifact but stains Hamas’ Charter to this day, a major roadblock to peace.
            • Chooky 14.1.1.2.2.1

              18 July 2014 at 5:21 pm

              …a major trumped up “roadblock to peace” !

              ‘Dumping blame for the Holocaust on the Grand Mufti is an insult to its six million victims
              A highly incriminating story, if true – but “possible” is hardly the stuff of history’

              By Robert Fisk:

              http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/dumping-blame-for-the-holocaust-on-the-grand-mufti-is-an-insult-to-its-six-million-victims-9587755.html

              ….”The Grand Mufti, let’s face it, was a pretty horrible man, immoral and racist, but he was a puny figure in the history of Nazism’s epic evil. Dumping the Holocaust on this wretched figure is ultimately an insult to history as well as to the six million victims of an evil regime. It also provides another means of denigrating the entire Palestinian people – whose lands are still being gobbled up by the Israeli government – when the real criminals were neither Muslim nor Arab but Europeans, that cultured, largely Christian race who have inflicted more suffering on the people of this world than any other in recent history.”
              • Gosman …

                18 July 2014 at 5:49 pm

                I agree the Grand Mufti was inconsequential in the global sense a d certainly did not drive the Holocaust. However he was influential in Palestine especially in the post WWII situation leading up to the creation of the State of Israel. A lot of the blame for the Palestinian’s situation can be laid at his feet.
                • Colonial Viper …

                  18 July 2014 at 9:24 pm

                  It’s Israel who learnt from the operation of the Warsaw Ghetto, and applied it in the 21st century on another disempowered marginalised peoples who have no secure homeland of their own.
              • One Anonymous Bloke …

                18 July 2014 at 6:20 pm

                There’s nothing trumped up about Hamas’ denial of Israel’s right to exist. Fisk’s argument amounts to ‘they did it too’, but nobody’s hands are clean.
                • Chooky …

                  18 July 2014 at 8:02 pm

                  the Palestinians were driven out of their homes and their homeland of Palestine at the point of guns by the Israelis… and it continues….are you trying to justify this?
                  • One Anonymous Bloke …

                    18 July 2014 at 8:50 pm

                    The Israelis use similar rhetoric to justify their aggression; nothing justifies it.
                    • Colonial Viper …

                      18 July 2014 at 9:28 pm

                      Meh, sticks and stones. Hamas leaders may say whatever, but in terms of actually murdering dozens of civilians a week including women and children, only the leadership of Israel has proven that they are both capable and willing.
                    • One Anonymous Bloke …

                      19 July 2014 at 7:46 am

                      The list of Palestinian suicide attacks doesn’t undermine your confidence at all?
          • Gosman 14.1.1.2.3

            18 July 2014 at 5:51 pm

            I never mentioned Nazism. I did mention Germans. Germans and Nazism are not the same.
            • Chooky 14.1.1.2.3.1

              18 July 2014 at 8:22 pm

              You state: “Are you suggesting that the Palestinians should be able to return to the lands they had pre 1948? Do you also think the Germans should be allowed to return to the lands they lived in for centuries pre the end of WWII?”

              …what is your point? …. WWII atrocities against the Jews and Gypsies and Gays and disabled and handicapped and women who had abortions and Communists and any German who defied and resisted the fascist Nazis were committed by the fascist Nazis and their Government

              …just as the atrocities against the Palestinians are committed by the fascist Israeli Government and fascist Israelis …and not Jews in general or around the world

              You are making a false equivalence between Palestinians and Germans…very convenient argument for the persecution of Palestinians….but a nonsensical argument for more reasons than one…because initially the Palestinians did not mind sharing their Palestinian homeland with the dispossessed European Jews…and they had far outnumbered Jews living in their homeland Palestine for centuries and had lived with them in peace.
              • Gosman …

                19 July 2014 at 7:44 am

                Ummmm… Where did you get the view that the Arabs didn’t mind sharing their homeland with the Jews?
                • Chooky …

                  20 July 2014 at 7:06 pm

                  http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html
    • One Anonymous Bloke 14.2

      18 July 2014 at 2:24 pm

      Well Israel is still illegally occupying all that land and treating Palestinians like untermensch…what do you “expect”?

      Trying to find justification for killing is a fool’s errand – there isn’t any. Hamas try to justify it, so do right wing Israelis, and so, apparently, do you.

      I’m not daft enough to “expect” that UN resolutions will be enforced any time soon, and they’re still a good place to start.

      Do you approve of US drone strikes too? Weddings and so-forth.
    • North 14.3

      18 July 2014 at 2:51 pm

      What truce are you speaking of Infused ?

      Apartheid is still advanced daily. The Wall continues to be built. Palestinians still find villages and land arbitrarily and illegally appropriated into Israel by its inexorable construction. The West Bank is still occupied. Fanatical zionist ‘outposters’ still beat, maim and execute the ‘sub-human’ Palestinians and steal their land at gunpoint, indeed they are paid by Tel Aviv to do so. Terrified twelve and thirteen year olds still stand in the docks of Nazi IDF kangaroo courts in Israel for throwing stones at the IDF savagely beating their schoolmates. Stones for fuck sake ??? IDF bulldozers still mow down villages and houses to make way for illegal settlements and Israeli-only roads in the West Bank, the map of which is polka-dotted with illegal settlements. The six year blockade/seige of Gaza continues from land, sea and air.

      What truce are you speaking of arsehole ?

      For your infantile and woefully ignorant comment to mean anything at all it would have to be read thus – “The Palestinians continue to resist the above……” Oh my ! How ‘terroristic’ of them !

      Picture the western world ‘giving’ New Zealand to Australia. That’s what happened to Palestine in 1948. Since which time Zionist Israel has ‘appropriated’ over 80% of what was left to the Palestinians in 1948. You wouldn’t resist ? No. I understand that. You’d be ‘kapo’. Though I daresay not from your lounge room as in the instant. You’d be hard out to impress. By denouncing your fellows for doing so.
      • Gosman 14.3.1

        18 July 2014 at 3:07 pm

        The Western world did not give Palestine to the Jews. The United Nations, (which included Communist nations in Eastern Europe and non Western independent nations in places such as South America and Asia voted to split the UN mandate territory between two people. The land was being administed for the UN and the UN had the right to do so.
        • One Anonymous Bloke 14.3.1.1

          18 July 2014 at 3:38 pm

          UN resolutions are a good place to start.
        • Colonial Viper 14.3.1.2

          18 July 2014 at 3:51 pm

          Meh, the Israelis have taken far far more than was ever approved in that UN decision.
15. Bill 15

    18 July 2014 at 2:13 pm

    Like it or lump it, the demand for a ‘right to return’ has to be dumped. No state, let alone a small one the size of Israel, could survive a sudden influx of millions.

    That aside, I’m curious what direct involvement the NZ government has with Israel. If there are no connections, then there is no leverage to use in order to alter our own government’s behaviour/attitude to Palestinians and Israel. If there are connections, they need to be identified and novel ways found to politically exploit those connections.

    Meanwhile, the NZ government simply isn’t ever going to condemn Israeli actions unless the US and/or (maybe) Europe has led some chorus of condemnation.

    And so, bearing the above in mind, what are the protests for or what do they hope to achieve? Is the idea to raise awareness? Well, I’d suggest there is little room left for raising awareness much beyond the levels it already sits at. Maybe – sadly – then, what lies at the heart of the protests is a desire among protesters to stoke their own sense of self righteousness of an afternoon…and maybe a desire on the part of various political cults that have their fingers in this pie to sign up a few fee paying members.

    Having already had this conversation in the real world, I’m aware some people might be pissed off by the line of reasoning. And sure, maybe I am being overly cynical. But if there is no opportunity or likely prospect of your particular plan of action affecting something, then why execute it?
    • Gosmen 15.1

      18 July 2014 at 2:30 pm

      The right of return is not possible or practical. The best that can be hoped for is some compensation for lost property and maybe a land swap between the State of Israel and some future Palestinian state.
      • Bill 15.1.1

        18 July 2014 at 2:34 pm

        Yup. A two state solution that no-one will be overly happy with but that everyone could live with.
      • North 15.1.2

        18 July 2014 at 4:26 pm

        Bullshit ! Your ignorance has excluded knowledge of the essential spirit of the Balfour Declaration of 1919. 1948 was final delivery (in circumstances of an overwhelming sense of guilt) of the 1919 promise. And Palestine was raped with millions then and since sent into exile and still not allowed to return, in order to honour the promise.

        Did your bullshit ‘cloak of legtimacy’ training at the Foreign Ministry in Tel Aviv did you ?

        Strange how the Nazis in Tel Aviv and their sympathisers here are right up the UN for 1948 yet they’re all “Fuck You !” to the UN ever since. Subsequently taking more than 80% of what the ‘mandated” UN did not ‘mandate’ to them in 1948. I guess it’s all down to this – “It’s OK. Palestinians are not human like us”.
        • SPC 15.1.2.1

          18 July 2014 at 9:30 pm

          The Balfour Declaration was in 1917.

          Fulfilment of this promise did not require the displacement of any Arab or any Jew. It stated a Jewish homeland without prejudice towards local Arab inhabitants.

          Displacement occurred because Arab nations would not accept partition into two states and there was a war on Israel.

          During that war Israeli held territory grew. Since 1949 the UN no longer recognises acquisition of territory taken in war – which is why the remnant Palestinian land taken in 1967 was called occupied.

          During the war Arab armies ethnically cleansed the West Bank of Jews – the settlements under occupation since 1967 are the Jewish revenge. Yet paradoxically the state of Israel did not and does not allow Arab refugees right to return to their homes in a now enlarged Israel.
        • Gosman 15.1.2.2

          19 July 2014 at 3:10 pm

          What is your solution then given there is over 5 million Israeli Jews living in the area you think belong to Arabs?
    • Colonial Viper 15.2

      18 July 2014 at 2:41 pm

      You don’t protest because you think you are going to achieve some practical solution. You protest because you wish to show that you’re fucked off, aren’t going to mope at home, and are going to be counted. But you know this Bill.
      • Bill 15.2.1

        18 July 2014 at 2:59 pm

        Well no CV. The reason for engaging in a protest has to be that it will achieve something. If whatever is being proposed achieves nothing (or will have a negative impact), then other propositions have to be found, formulated and/or considered.

        Far too many people at protests are like geese in a train. Their presence, therefore, amounts to nothing regardless of their overall numbers.

        Now tell me, who it is that I’m meant to display my ‘fucked offness’ to and why? Because I’m trying to anticipate likely answers and thinking – “I don’t think so”. But maybe I’ve missed something, and my thinking on that front is wrong.
        • karol 15.2.1.1

          18 July 2014 at 3:10 pm

          See the quote from the protest press release in my post – they march is proposing an international boycott, plus a protest at NZ Herald and TVNZ to protest biased reporting.
          • Gosman 15.2.1.1.1

            18 July 2014 at 3:13 pm

            Why is the reporting biased? Seems to me that they are reporting the Israeli attacks and the civilian casualties. Did you want them to make out this is purely the fault of the Israelis? If so then isn’t that in itself biased?
            • karol 15.2.1.1.1.1

              18 July 2014 at 3:47 pm

              Did you read the post and the linked press release?

              It has a lot to do with HOW it’s reported, the choice of language etc.
              • infused …

                18 July 2014 at 3:58 pm

                Most people aren’t dumb enough to read one source for their news.
                • karol …

                  18 July 2014 at 4:00 pm

                  It’s a pity we often need to look overseas to get more diversity of reporting.
                • Colonial Viper …

                  18 July 2014 at 4:05 pm

                  Most people aren’t dumb enough to read one source for their news.

                  Wrong. “Dumb” has nothing to do with it. Instead, most people are not pro-active in sourcing their news but rather are time strapped, passive consumers who trust the major mainstream sources.
          • srylands 15.2.1.1.2

            18 July 2014 at 3:28 pm

            How are you going to get an international boycott? The USA would veto it in the security council.
            • freedom 15.2.1.1.2.1

              19 July 2014 at 4:21 pm

              Bless your sweet bombastic brain srylands.
              Burroughs would applaud you for being such a poster boy for soldiers’ pay.

              All countries can boycott something if they so choose. Sure it helps to have UN approval and co-operation, but the US stormed off and invaded two countries and is Drone bombing the crap out of another without your Vogon stamp of authorization and you have repeatedly defended their actions. What’s a few boycotts compared to the deaths of a million civilians?

              NZ for example. Even if solely within the civilian populace. NZrs could immediately choose to boycott all trade, travel and other relationships with Israel and refuse to re-instate them until Israel leaves Gaza, returns all lands confiscated or illegally settled since say 1967, then guess what – hey presto, the world still spins and a non-violent response to violence gains attention even importance in the grand bazaar of the conflict. Then we tell two countries and they tell two countries and so on and so on and so on.

              Yes, boycotts lead to broken contracts then commercial pressures which create product restrictions, putting jobs at risk and before you know it we have crazy eyed politicians filling the airwaves putting us all into stupors of various depths so I make no bones, there would be a gargantuan pile of crap to deal with. But we, like any other country on earth, can actually do it if we choose to.

              We need not one word of permission. Even as part of the Commonwealth we are still able to navigate and chart the course of International relations as we so choose. It is called self-determination, sovereignty, independence. It is the basis of our own country’s democracy. I know you struggle with those terms but goddam it man, we don’t need the permission of Uncle Sam to tell us when we are allowed to stand up.
          • Tiger Mountain 15.2.1.1.3

            18 July 2014 at 3:41 pm

            The subtext of this protest linked to a specific event–the ground attack on Gaza, provides the valuable service for participants of confirming that others do care apart from you individually, and more importantly as the photos filter through to Palestine that the people there are not forgotten by so many around the world as these international images portray.
            https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153067675439546&set=gm.171106636392903&type=1&theater

            The ‘official’ text is to
            • present a different view to the public than that in the Herald or TV news (while hopefully appearing in the msm as well as activist blogs and fb)
            • symbolically scold Israel’s greatest friend the USA at the US Embassy
            • seriously begin to encourage a ‘smart’ consumer boycott to pressure Israel economically
        • Colonial Viper 15.2.1.2

          18 July 2014 at 3:42 pm

          Well no CV. The reason for engaging in a protest has to be that it will achieve something.

          Nah disagree, that’s not how protests have worked in the history of protests, you can never be sure what any individual protest has achieved or how it has influenced the minds of ordinary people or the power elite; what did any single protest against the Springbok tour accomplish, were any games even called off? But the cumulative effect is important and sometimes society changing.

          No issue with what you said about lemmings going to protests and not having any idea of what is going on though, that happens too much.
          • Tiger Mountain 15.2.1.2.1

            18 July 2014 at 3:52 pm

            Not you too CV with brain fade today, first Gosman multiplied into Gosmen, then Bill forgets what protests are for, now you appear to disremember that the Hamilton game was called off due to a ground invasion by ’81 Stop the Tour protestors.

            Lemmings? If the 50,000 Queen St No Mining march was populated by them, all power to Lemmings against Mining.
            • Colonial Viper 15.2.1.2.1.1

              18 July 2014 at 4:09 pm

              now you appear to disremember that the Hamilton game was called off due to a ground invasion by ’81 Stop the Tour protestors.

              Please forgive, I was still learning the ABCs those days 😀

              (nice fact tho I’ll file away for future use)
            • Bill 15.2.1.2.1.2

              18 July 2014 at 4:31 pm

              What’s this bit about me forgetting what protests are for? You think some bar of effectiveness is a bar too high that should never be set?

              I note Karol pointing out that a part of the reasoning is to with bias reporting which, apart from implying that people need to be outside various media outlets every day to protest their presentation of various dominant paradigms as objective, well…it might achieve something in this instance if it was more than a ‘one off’…ie, one day outside a couple of media outlets as opposed to something that could generate a head of steam.

              Meanwhile, even allowing for a presence at media outlets, where does that leave people protesting in Hamilton or Wellington or Christchurch or wherever else?

              As pointed out by others, even though there are there plenty of people who already boycott Israeli products, there will, and for a number of reasons, be no officially sanctioned boycott of Israel or Israeli goods. And, putting aside the problem of goods manufactured in occupied territories, dodgy labeling and so on, I’m just reflecting on the efficacy of the decades long and ongoing boycott of Nestle… Consumer power simply….isn’t power.

              So what’s left? Find the connections between the NZ government and Israel’s government….between NZ companies and Israel. And apply a building pressure at those points. But maybe that’s too hard a row to hoe when compared to a nice simple venting of ire off the back of a 2,4,6,8 march and rally with simplified sloganeering?
              • Colonial Viper …

                18 July 2014 at 9:33 pm

                So what’s left? Find the connections between the NZ government and Israel’s government….between NZ companies and Israel. And apply a building pressure at those points. But maybe that’s too hard a row to hoe when compared to a nice simple venting of ire off the back of a 2,4,6,8 march and rally with simplified sloganeering?

                the question always is, how do you effectively leverage the insiders who can apply these pressure points into acting. Building mass movements which make it clear that the current position does not have popular legitimacy is simply one of those ways, crude as it is.

                I am very much for your concepts of applying smart pressure though, Bill.
16. adam 16

    18 July 2014 at 2:28 pm

    Now this was interesting https://www.tytnetwork.com/2014/07/16/jon-stewart-enrages-right-winger-first-over-gaza-then-it-gets-personal/
17. Penny Bright 17

    18 July 2014 at 3:32 pm

    FYI

    FYI

    18 July 2014

    ‘Open Letter’ /OIA request to NZ Prime Minister John Key :

    “Upon which International Human Rights Law are you relying to NOT publicly condemn the Israeli State bombing and invasion of Gaza?”

    New Zealand Prime Minister John Key,

    Please be reminded of the following, stated on the NZ Government Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade (MFAT) website, regarding New Zealand’s commitment to the ‘Rule of Law’ – nationally and internationally:

    http://www.mfat.govt.nz/Foreign-Relations/1-Global-Issues/Human-Rights/index.php

    Human Rights

    New Zealand is strongly committed to the protection and promotion of international human rights, as embodied in the Universal Declaration on Human Rights and in the seven core human rights treaties.
    New Zealand seeks to defend and advance international human rights in multilateral human rights fora, focussing on the meetings of the United Nations Human Rights Council in Geneva and in the Third Committee of the United Nations General Assembly in New York and negotiations of new international human rights instruments.

    New Zealand also focuses on the promotion of human rights in our region and in countries with which we have bilateral relationships, through exchanging views about human rights and providing practical assistance.

    “Whereas it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human rights should be protected by the rule of law ”

    http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/

    http://www.mfat.govt.nz/Treaties-and-International-Law/05-International-Humanitarian-Law/index.php

    International Humanitarian Law

    International humanitarian law is also sometimes described as the “law of armed conflict” or the “laws of war”. It is a framework of rules that restricts the means and methods of warfare and protects people who are not participating in the fighting, in order to limit the effects of armed conflict for humanitarian reasons. International humanitarian law does not regulate when or why a State may use force, or determine whether an armed conflict is legal or illegal, and the rules of international humanitarian law apply equally to all sides regardless of who started the conflict.

    International humanitarian law is made up of a body of treaties. Many of the rules set down in these treaties have become so widely accepted that they are now regarded as customary international law and binding on all States.

    The core international humanitarian law treaties are the four 1949 Geneva Conventions, concluded after World War II, which cover:

    wounded soldiers on the battlefield;
    wounded and shipwrecked at sea;
    prisoners of war;
    civilians under enemy control.

    These four treaties have been universally adopted by all States.
    The Geneva Conventions have been supplemented by two Additional Protocols adopted in 1977 relating to the protection of victims of armed conflicts, and a third Additional Protocol adopted in 2005 specifying an additional emblem that may be used by organisations of the Red Cross. Other important international humanitarian law treaties regulate the types of weapons that can be used in armed conflict, including the 1972 Biological Weapons Convention, the 1980 Conventional Weapons Convention and its five protocols, the 1993 Chemical Weapons Convention, the 1997 Ottawa Convention on anti-personnel mines.

    http://www.mfat.govt.nz/Foreign-Relations/1-Global-Issues/Human-Rights/0-overview.php
    Human Rights

    New Zealand and Human Rights

    International Obligations and Treaties
    New Zealand is strongly committed to the protection and promotion of international human rights, as embodied in the Universal Declaration on Human Rights, and in the key human rights treaties.

    ………

    International Obligations

    As a member of the United Nations, New Zealand supports the human rights provisions of the United Nations Charter and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. We are also a party to the seven core international human rights instruments which follow. Links to the following can be found in the Related Resources section of this page.

    International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR)
    International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights (ICESCR)
    International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination (CERD)
    Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women (CEDAW)
    Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (CAT)
    UN Convention on the Rights of the Child (UNCRC)
    UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities
    These instruments impose obligations upon parties, including requirements for regular reporting on implementation of the treaties.

    …………………………..

    http://gaza.scoop.ps/2014/07/ministry-of-health-gaza-update-170714/

    Ministry of Health Gaza Update 17/07/14
    July 17, 20140 comments
    Important (400 x 255)

    The Ministry of Health in Gaza reports the following statistics as at 1800 hours on Thursday July 16, 2014:

    Deaths: 235 – 52 children, 24 women 18-60 years, 16 persons over 60 years
    Injuries: 1,764 – 521 children, 323 women 18-60 years, 67 over 60 years.
    ICU: 23 patients

    Gaza Under Attack English (400 x 571)

    Israeli Aggression Against Medical Staff
    Dr. Anas Abu Alkkas – Killed by Israeli airstrike
    Mohammed Al Najjar – nurse, injured
    Nader Al Buhasay – ambulance officer, injured
    Husam Radi – Lab Technician Injured on the way home from work at Kamal Odwan Hospital

    Damages to Primary Health Care centers
    Six centres damaged:
    Al Fakhari
    Beach
    Al Attatrah
    Ashi clinic
    Medical Relief for Chronic Diseases
    Beit Hanoun Center for Medical Relief

    13 Centers closed

    Hospitals Attacked
    European Gaza
    Al Wafa

    Ambulances
    Three ambulances destroyed and damaged in Ambulance Center

    Massacres Against Families
    a. Hamd Family in Beit Hanoun – 6 martyrs.
    b. Kaware’ Family in Khan Yunis – 8 martyrs.
    c. Al Manasra Family in Central Gaza – 4 martyrs.
    d. Al Hajj Family in Khan Yunis – 8 martyrs.
    e. Abu Jame’ Family in Khan Yunis – 2 martyrs.
    f. Abd Al Ghafour Family in Khan Yunis – 2 martyrs.
    g. Ghanaam Family in Rafah – 4 martyrs.
    h. Al Arja Family in Rafah – 2 martyrs.
    i. Al Astal Family in Khan Yunis – 3 martyrs.
    j. Al Sawali Family in Khan Yunis – 2 martyrs.
    k. Al Batsh Family in Gaza – 17 martyrs.
    l. Sheikh El-Eid Family in Rafah – 3 martyrs
    m. Abu Daqqa Family in Khan Younes – 3 martyrs
    n. Bakr Family in Gaza City – 4 martyrs, all children
    o. Zo’rob Family in Khan Younes – 3 martyrs
    p. Al Astal Family in Khan Younes – 4 martyrs
    q. Shehaibar Family in Sabra, Gaza City – 3 martyrs, all children

    Medical Treatment Abroad
    10/07/2014 – 11 medical cases permitted to enter Egypt
    11/07/2014 – 0 – borders closed.
    12/07/2014 – Four medical cases permitted to enter Egypt
    13/07/2014 – Six medical cases sent to Jordan, three permitted to enter Egypt
    14/07/2014 – Four medical cases permitted to enter Egypt
    15/07/2014 – One medical case permitted to enter Egypt
    16/07/2014 – Six medical cases sent to Jordan

    OIA REQUEST:

    Please provide the following information which confirms:

    Upon which International Human Rights Law, you, as Prime Minister of New Zealand, are relying, to NOT publicly condemn the Israeli State bombing and invasion of Gaza, and call for the immediate cessation thereof.

    Yours sincerely,

    Penny Bright

    2014 Independent candidate for the Helensville electorate

    Jacquelyne Taylor

    Peace Advocate
    • Gosman 17.1

      18 July 2014 at 3:46 pm

      Why do you assume that a Govenment has to reference human rights law every time a country does some action which might require a censure?
      • One Anonymous Bloke 17.1.1

        18 July 2014 at 3:53 pm

        The meaning of the word ‘obligation’. The meaning of the word ‘treaty’.
        • Colonial Viper 17.1.1.1

          18 July 2014 at 4:12 pm

          Gossie will be all keen to recite letter and verse our “obligations” under the TPPA if that passes.
    • Chooky 17.2

      18 July 2014 at 8:32 pm

      +100 Penny
    • greywarbler 17.3

      18 July 2014 at 8:36 pm

      Thank you Penny Bright for a thorough summary of the Gaza disaster. Much appreciated.
    • SPC 17.4

      18 July 2014 at 9:19 pm

      Penny when the IDF withdrew from Gaza, the area was no longer one of civilians under enemy/Israeli control.

      That would only apply on IDF incursion and occupation.
      • Murray Olsen 17.4.1

        19 July 2014 at 3:28 am

        Gaza remained surrounded, blockaded, and under a large degree of IDF control, backed up by the threat of bombings at any time. How can that not be a situation of civilians under foreign control?
18. Sable 18

    18 July 2014 at 3:39 pm

    Disgusting but predictable behaviour from yet another US stooge state like the “new” Ukraine.
    • Gosman 18.1

      18 July 2014 at 3:49 pm

      If you think Israel does US bidding I would suggest you are seriously mistaken and naive.
      • One Anonymous Bloke 18.1.1

        18 July 2014 at 3:54 pm

        Yet more information on what Gosman ‘would’ ‘suggest’. Is there no end to the vacuity?
        • Colonial Viper 18.1.1.1

          18 July 2014 at 4:14 pm

          Gosman is right though. It’s the US which does Israel’s bidding, not the other way around.
          • Chooky 18.1.1.1.1

            18 July 2014 at 5:42 pm

            …unfortunately for the USA and Americans
          • Chooky 18.1.1.1.2

            18 July 2014 at 6:24 pm

            on Israeli lobbying in the USA…James Petras

            http://cosmos.ucc.ie/cs1064/jabowen/IPSC/articles/article0036373.html

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Petras
          • Puddleglum 18.1.1.1.3

            19 July 2014 at 9:01 pm

            I tend to Chomsky’s analysis on this point – that Israeli actions are largely joint US/Israeli actions and that the US has repeatedly drawn the line for how far Israel can go.

            In essence, Israel is a kept state. It will receive patronage only so long as it does useful things for the U.S.. The history of the start of massive U.S. ‘aid’ to Israel closely reflects that patronage relationship – the first large instalments coming after the 1967 war which weakened Nasser.

            Nasser – a secular nationalist – was of course a threat, potentially, to the power base of the Saudi Crown that ruled, and still rules, the oil resources largely in the interests of the west (and the elite itself) rather than for the people of the region.

            If you track U.S. aid to Israel (see this April 2014, Congressional Summary – especially table B2), you’ll see that aid did an uptick post-1967 and, more decisively, post-1970 when Israel mobilised in order to threaten Syria which was intervening against the Jordanian attacks on Palestinians (the month called ‘Black September‘). [Edit: and the aid changed dramatically from a mix of economic and military loans to significant military and economic grants.]

            Prior to the late 1960s aid was very modest. Geopolitical events essentially changed that because they changed U.S. interests.

            Strangely, that Israeli mobilisation in Black September was not mentioned in the Wikipedia link on Black September that I just linked to. But, as this very recent ‘Jewish Chronicle’ analysis of the current situation reveals, Israel has, since Black September, acted as Jordan’s on-the-ground, ‘silent guarantor’ of Jordan – with the full support of the U.S. as indicated, in part, by the aid up-tick:

            “Since the early 1970s, long before the two countries signed a peace treaty in 1994, Israel has acted as a silent guarantor of the Kingdom’s security, along with its traditional allies Britain and the United States. Back in the days of the Black September Palestinian terrorist organisation, the IDF mobilised forces to prevent a possible takeover of the country by the PLO and Syria.”

            Pro-Israel lobbies within the United States are certainly significant but not decisive – probably only effectual at the margins. It suits U.S. geopolitical interests in the Middle East to have Israel as a ‘marshall’ (along with Jordan, Pakistan and, to an extent, Turkey – what the Nixon doctrine called “cops on the beat”) on the ground as an enforcer of those interests.

            Even if there were no pro-Israeli lobbyists the U.S. government would continue to make its own calculations in relation to Israel and act on those. There would be little difference in U.S. support, or otherwise, for Israeli actions.

            There’s a particularly happy confluence of interests between the U.S. and Israel – at least for the past forty-odd years and, of course, for the moment.

            A two state solution is currently not calculated to be in those interests and so is unlikely to eventuate.
            • Colonial Viper 18.1.1.1.3.1

              19 July 2014 at 9:50 pm

              Pro-Israel lobbies within the United States are certainly significant but not decisive – probably only effectual at the margins

              I understand that they can muster significant amounts of campaign money. As well as indirectly control the level of corporate contributions to both parties. So while the ‘explicit’ Israel lobby may hang about the margins, the ‘Israel network’ is far more pervasive.

              One other point. If the US is convinced to give Israel say $1B in military aid money, just think about where large chunks of that money finally gets spent. Yep. Raytheon, Boeing, Lockheed Martin. Hence the MIC push Congress in that direction as well.
            • swordfish 18.1.1.1.3.2

              19 July 2014 at 10:44 pm

              I broadly agree, Puddleglum. But I think the argument made by both Noam Chomsky and Norman Finkelstein is a little more nuanced than that. Yep, the US is very much in the driving seat vis-à-vis Middle East policy in general, and, yes, Israel always needs a (tacit) green light from the US before it embarks on any significant action. (thus critiquing the Walt and Mearsheimer thesis).

              But, they do argue that the Israel lobby within the US is, indeed, very powerful when it comes to ensuring continued support (in the White House and Congress) specifically for Israel’s on-going illegal Occupation. So I think it’s a little more than simply being effectual at the margins. A few years ago, an independent monitoring group calculated that the US Israel Lobby (and I can’t quite remember now whether it was the full spectrum of pro-Israeli groups or just AIPAC) comprised the second most powerful Lobby-Group in the US (after the Gun Lobby). As CV has alluded to.
              • Puddleglum …

                20 July 2014 at 7:31 pm

                Hi swordfish,

                That’s fair enough and I don’t claim to have any insight over and above what I read and a general framework I have for understanding how power operates.

                For example, I view he influence of lobbyists as first and foremost dependent upon a filter based on the primary interests of power. Some sources of lobbying are acceptable, others less so.

                If a pro-Palestinian lobby group arose that was extremely well-funded and sought a one-state solution I don’t think they’d get very far pushing for their policy preference, no matter how much money and how many lobbyists they had. Any congressional candidate who took campaign funding or bowed to such a lobby group would not have a stellar career – and not just because of public reaction. Their party – whichever one it was – would ensure that person never got to a position where they could enact such a policy.

                The reason would be that such a position would endanger what are called by the U.S. elite the ‘national interest’ or ‘national security’. Serving those interests is the necessary and sufficient condtion for a lobby group gaining any measure of influence over policy in these sorts of issues.

                Well, at least that would be what I’d assume given my understanding of how power exercises itself. But there’s a lot of variability and different calculations that can fit within that broad imperative. I just think that imperative remains the foundation of U.S. support for Israel and Israeli actions.

                I may be wrong of course.
19. Chooky 19

    18 July 2014 at 5:37 pm

    More on ‘Einstein on Palestine and Zionism’

    http://www.thecanadiancharger.com/page.php?id=5&a=275

    http://www.newdemocracyworld.org/old/Einstein%20on%20Zionism.htm
20. Paul 20

    18 July 2014 at 5:51 pm

    This is what happens when you tell a different story to the one the MSM want you to hear?
    

    We are being fed propaganda on Gaza
    • Bill 20.1

      18 July 2014 at 7:40 pm

      Good link Paul. Particularly nice that he broadens the critique towards the end and gives illustrative examples of other journalists in other areas getting axed…having their careers ended…. for not echoing establishment thought.

      Which kind of feeds into any protests at media outlets. I wonder if people are content to give individual (yes, they probably are playing ball) journalists a hard time or whether they can be bothered to find and target shareholders/execs etc?

      To wind up this comment and to add an illustrative example from closer to home. I remember having a fairly lengthy conversation with Janet McIntyre some years back when she was working for 60 Minutes. Her degree of ignorance on world affairs was astonishing. Yet she gets nominated for and wins awards for ‘Current Affairs Reporting’…
      • Colonial Viper 20.1.1

        18 July 2014 at 8:14 pm

        Her degree of ignorance on world affairs was astonishing. Yet she gets nominated for and wins awards for ‘Current Affairs Reporting’…

        “Journalists” who aren’t the least bit curious about truth or context. Oxymoronic.
21. OnceWasPete 21

    19 July 2014 at 8:00 am

    I would feel more comfortable with your comments if you also denounced the terrorist acts by Hammas in launching rockets against Israeli civilian targets and in conducting their terrorist operations from civilian areas. Or do you not feel that is important?
    What response do you think Israel should take?
    • One Anonymous Bloke 21.1

      19 July 2014 at 3:06 pm

      Ask the Israeli/Palestinian Left:

      Two states for two peoples.
      Borders based upon the June 4, 1967 lines.
      Jerusalem will be an open city, the capital of two states.
      Palestinian refugees will return only to the Palestinian state.
      Palestine will be demilitarized.

      Or how about Ometz LeSarev?
22. North 22

    19 July 2014 at 11:13 am

    OnceWasPete @ 21 above – re Hamas – “and in conducting their terrorist operations from civilian areas.” Auckland urban area 1086 square kilometres with a population of 1.4 million therein. The ENTIRE Gaza Strip one-third of that area at 365 square kilometres. With a population close to 2 million.

    Picture Titirangi to Glendowie and go 12 kilometres south at each end. You’ll stop before Manukau City. There are virtually no areas of the Gaza Strip which are NOT “civilian areas” you dick. Yeah there must be kids’ playgrounds, parks and postage stamps of undeveloped land but in real terms there are no non-civilian areas. The Gaza Strip is one of the most densely populated areas in the world. Zionist Israel planned it that way. It is essentially a refugee camp with a sitting-duck population. Consult a map before you spout your risible self-talking, self-pleasing false equivalency bullshit.

    And while you’re at it have a look at a map of the West Bank. Positively polka-dotted with illegal settlements. Like measles.

    Laughable how to fact-free fuckwits like you literally thousands of IDF deployed with serious US supplied/paid for armaments, which in this latest round of ‘shooting fish in a barrel’ has delivered 250:1 consequences, well no they’re NOT terrorists. While a fraction of that number resisting an historic/instant/future daily life of occupation, apartheid, oppression and pointed brutality, deploying in that resistance relative slingshots, ARE terrorists.

    Get real sweetie ! This ain’t about your moral ‘comfort’.

    .
    • Once was Pete 22.1

      19 July 2014 at 2:39 pm

      My, what an angry hostile fellow you are. Whats the matter – didn’t mummy love you? Your arrogant, condescending and one eyed outburst is immaterial to me. I don’t need a geography lesson, from someone as partisan as you. I see you know how to look up wikipedia, pity you didn’t brush up on english expression.
      What a poster child for the anti-semites! This hatred really has blinded you hasn’t it?
      Maybe some anger management might help you, then you could really talk with the adults.
      So it is not terrorism and rocket attacks are ok – well thats good to know! Says it all really.
      • North 22.1.1

        19 July 2014 at 3:35 pm

        OnceWasPeteAndStillIsCrazy @ 22.1 – already in the past, and to no productive end really, you’ve sprayed this sour framing of my being, including I think my childhood. Crude and as per usual completely off the point.

        Frankly I rank your anti-semite screech – your one albeit fallacious point – I rank it alongside your fantastical Dr Phil shit about my early life. Get a grip !

        I will ask this of you: please……..please do not wish upon me the ‘elan’ (chuckle chuckle facepalm) of YOUR English expression. What passes for your paragraphing could do with a bit of work too.

        It’s not generally known and I hope he doesn’t mind the disclosure but I trained under Morrissey. Mate. Ever Breen done like a dog’s dinner ? Mate. Wanna try ? Again ? M-m-m-maaa…..Oh no I can’t.
      • Colonial Viper 22.1.2

        19 July 2014 at 6:45 pm

        Israel chose to turn Gaza into a ghettoized community. The shame falls on a so-called religious nation armed to the teeth with advanced cruise missiles, drones, LGBs and guided missile destroyers killing civilians and children on a daily basis.
23. freedom 23

    19 July 2014 at 12:27 pm

    NBC doing their bit for truth justice and the Israeli way.
    There are numerous reports coming out about this story and all say the same thing.
    NBC pulled out an Arab speaking journalist who knew his stuff and replaced him with a talking head.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/17/ayman-mohyeldin-pulled-gaza-nbc_n_5595989.html
    http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Middle-East/2014/Jul-18/264312-nbc-pulls-gaza-reporter-after-massacre-report.ashx

    and Israel’s expanding use of experimental weapons is also coming to light
    http://mirelamonte.tumblr.com/post/91991843448/doctors-spooked-by-israels-mystery-weapon
    http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/rania-khalek/israel-firing-experimental-weapons-gazas-civilians-say-doctors
24. freedom 24

    19 July 2014 at 2:13 pm

    Perspective, it’s a wonderful thing

    I know I bleat on how humans need to grow up and stop hitting each other to solve their problems
    this cartoon exemplifies exactly what I mean
    • karol 24.1

      19 July 2014 at 3:41 pm

      The menz are fighting.
      • Colonial Viper 24.1.1

        19 July 2014 at 6:48 pm

        The 0.1% is doing the commanding and it is the proles who are dying. As usual.
25. Once was Pete 25

    19 July 2014 at 4:46 pm

    To North above. My statement to Karol was that I would ‘have been more comfortable with her comments if she had also…..etc. From this you should be able to infer that I don’t support either side in this conflict. But then reasoning doesn’t appear to be your strong suit. You seem to be ok with Jewish civilians including kids being killed, but not Palestinians. Not a very high humanitarian standard is it?
    You say that I was off topic. If I was you took us there with your personal abuse. Personal abuse is the refuge of the intellectually challenged. By your abuse you invited me to speculate on your character and upbringing.
    Not content with your ad hominem attack you now resort to argument from authority. Who cares if you were trained by Morrissey. He clearly didn’t do a very good job of training you to think! Perhaps you were his pa.
    Done Like a dinner? Not on your life, but then you would not be able to see the inconsistencies in your own reasoning.
26. North 26

    19 July 2014 at 8:07 pm

    Still sore aye OWP ? – I infer from “I don’t support either side……” an incapacity to formulate in other than corporate media construct and watery false equivalency. It’s easy. Know nothing but sound like you do. They don’t want us to ‘think’. Why oblige them by buying their manipulative shit ? Doing so in the face of 250:1…..well words fail.

    Every aspect of my political sense of things is lit up by the cruelty on cruelty of laying blame on the essential victim. Dishonesty deployed to rationalise and sanitise the victimiser’s victimisation of the victim. Particularly enraging when the victimiser’s ‘entitlement’ is grossly apparent. As I believe is the reflexive Zionist pose. Yes yes yes no more rockets no more death. OK. But that’s surrender to an ever encroaching evil. Nelson Mandela ? The ANC ? There’s your answer.

    We see the entitled victmiser number in the fatuous Paula Bennett – entitlement to ravage the poor and disadvantaged for the gain of TheGodKey, herself, and the over-rich for whom they are proxies. While falsely expressing ‘care’. The Wellington equivalent of the Tel Aviv “No civilian deaths intended.” Fuck off ! Constructively at the very least every one of those deaths is intended. Zionist Exceptionalism ‘licenses’ Zionists to do whatever apparently. And determinedly unknowledgable fools buy it.

    I do take issue with your insistence that it was me who propelled you into off-topic conjectural abuse of me as a child. “See what YOU made ME do.” No. You lost your rag and bashed up your keyboard. Your estimate of my intelligence does not disturb my more or less accord with myself on that score.

    The Morrissey bit was just a bit of fun man. Fuck ! Never met the guy but admit I like his style. No prisoners. A mean old tongue. Good on him ! My social/political ethos and the ability to express in the oral and written word were taught me not by Morrissey but by my good old (deprived Depression kids) Ma and Pa, the ones who never loved me OWP. The word in both forms is the primary tool in my 38 years in the one calling and I’m very grateful to them.

    Truce if you like. My dinner’s ready. The spoiled dog’s already had his.
27. Once was Pete 27

    19 July 2014 at 8:36 pm

    Truce is fine. Enjoy your dinner.
28. North 28

    19 July 2014 at 9:30 pm

    Kia Ora OWP. Bad12……P.Ure……hope you jokers watching.

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