John Key vs the truth

Written By: - Date published: 6:51 am, November 26th, 2014 - 100 comments
Categories: Abuse of power, accountability, john key - Tags: , , ,

A comparison of statements made by John Key with those of others, largely the Gwyn report (Gwyn quotes can all be found there).

Key: “In fact, the report does not show that my office was deeply involved. There were a series of claims made and not a single one of them has stacked up.”

ONE news: “An independent report has confirmed one of the Prime Minister’s staff disclosed Security Intelligence Service information to blogger Cameron Slater for political purposes.”

3 News: “The report goes inside Mr Key’s ninth-floor office and shows how Phil de Joux, his former deputy chief of staff, took information he learned off former spymaster Warren Tucker and worked with Mr Key’s taxpayer-funded dirt-digger Jason Ede to give a tip-off to Slater to ask for specific information …”

Key: “Absolutely it was nothing to do with my office.”

Key: “The basic claim that somehow my office was either pressuring the system, speeding up the process, injecting itself in the process, all of that is flatly incorrect …”

Gwyn: “The then Deputy Chief of Staff in the PMO, Philip de Joux, was the principal point of liaison between the Prime Minister and the Director of the NZSIS and other NZSIS staff. In that role, he was regularly briefed by the Director and by NZSIS staff and had substantial discussions with them, including discussions that bore on the OIA request and the subsequent release of information. At the same time, in his role as a senior political adviser in the PMO, Mrde Joux was involved in the political management of these events. Information which he received from the NZSIS was used by Jason Ede, a senior adviser within PMO, to assist Mr Slater in making the OIA request. In both of these roles, Mr de Joux’s actions had the potential to affect the maintenance or failure of political neutrality by the NZSIS.”

Gwyn: “Under previous administrations, the relationship between the NZSIS and the Prime Minister was conducted almost exclusively between the Prime Minister and the Director, with very little involvement by officials or advisers. After the change of government, the contact between the Service and the Prime Minister’s Office became more diffuse and Service staff engaged directly with political advisers in PMO.”

Gwyn: “Dr Tucker indicated to Mr de Joux that he didn’t know what they would do if Mr Goff did not accept that he had received a briefing, including the March SIR and that it might well be that he, Dr Tucker, would simply have to “wear” the allegation. Mr de Joux told Dr Tucker that because there was a written record of the briefing having occurred and because it was a matter of Dr Tucker’s statutory responsibility, PMO and/or the Prime Minister would not let that happen.”

Gwyn: “I did, however, find that Mr Ede had provided the details of the relevant documents to Mr Slater and was in fact speaking to Mr Slater by phone at the exact time that Mr Slater submitted his OIA request.

Gwyn: “Mr Slater also later provided a series of emails to and from Mr Ede, in which Mr Ede expressed his concern that he “might be in the shit” over his use of the NZSIS information.”

Gwyn: “Mr Ede … advised that the emails had been permanently deleted prior to the commencement of the inquiry and could not be recovered”

Gwyn: “Mr de Joux provided that information to Mr Ede with the suggestion that it might prompt an OIA request for those documents. Mr Ede then provided that information to Mr Slater, discussed the terms of the OIA request with Mr Slater and provided Mr Slater with draft blog posts concerning the issue.”

Key: “they [the SIS] were not used for political purposes”

Gwyn: “The New Zealand Intelligence Security Service information was disclosed by a member of the staff of the Prime Minister’s office to Cameron Slater for political purposes.”

Key: “The report is absolutely crystal clear. It says I played no role.

Gwyn: “The Director, as part of the 22 July briefing, advised the Prime Minister that the Leader of the Opposition had received a briefing on the Israeli allegations. The Prime Minister made a public comment that the Leader of the Opposition had been briefed on the Q&A programme broadcast on 24 July.”

Gwyn: “The Prime Minister later stated in a television interview, broadcast on 24 July, that the Director had told him that the Leader of the Opposition had been briefed and had been “shown the same note and report” as the Prime Minister. … The Director said that he was “taken aback” by the Prime Minister’s statement, but he explained that was not because the information was classified but because he saw the statement as continuing a public controversy over the issue.

Gwyn: “The NZSIS disclosed incomplete, inaccurate and misleading information in response to the Official Information Act requests by Mr Slater and others. It also provided much the same information, along with some further detail, to the Prime Minister and the Prime Minister’s Office.”

Gwyn: “However, the Director asserted to PMO, the Prime Minister, Mr Slater and other requesters that the briefing had been read and discussed.”

Key: “I am very proud of the way this Government operates, and I am very, very confident that the discussions and briefings that political staffers and politicians have on this side of the House are absolutely consistent with the other side of the House.”

Armstrong: “The Key administration has plumbed new depths of arrogance and contempt for the notion of politicians being accountable for their actions in its response to today’s hugely embarrassing report by the independent watchdog who maintains oversight over the Security Intelligence Service. Rather than take the findings of the report by the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security Cheryl Gwyn on the chin, National sought to bury the report.”

RNZ sums up:

Prime Minister John Key is refusing to accept there was a link between his office and right-wing blogger Cameron Slater, despite the Security Intelligence Service (SIS) watchdog finding his official passed on information.

Key thinks he can simple lie and refuse to accept facts. He can’t get away with it. Can he?

100 comments on “John Key vs the truth ”

  • Comments are now closed

  1. les 1
    26 November 2014 at 7:43 am

    still ‘ teflon John’….probably take a recession to wipe it away…or maybe if the AB’s lose the WC!

  2. Tiger Mountain 2
    26 November 2014 at 8:00 am

    In this milk powder republic that passes for a modern democracy of course dear leader can get away with it. But will he? People need to ensure he does not.

    People that do not accept the likes of his puffed up aide de camp Ede cynically using a “burner” phone and private email to conduct Prime Ministerial business involving the NZSIS and then deleting the emails.

    And people in the online and msm and people in the various political parties and movements. ShonKey will not escape his dirty tricks and degradation of NZs political processes if everyone just keeps on keeping on with the enquiries and research and activism. There will eventually be a weak link, unexpected evidence or snitch that will assist.

    • karol 2.1
      26 November 2014 at 8:14 am

      Continue the pressure. Plus, some people need to keep carefully scrutinising the evidence. If they are trying to bury the truth, or out-right lie, there will be some evidence eventually.

      Key (Collins, Slater, et al), spin “no evidence of XXX found” as proof something didn’t happen.

      • RedLogix 2.1.1
        26 November 2014 at 8:54 am

        ome people need to keep carefully scrutinising the evidence.

        Precisely. Key will not fall over because of our outrage or fleckle specked rants.

  3. amiriterawshark 3
    26 November 2014 at 8:00 am

    Short of being proven a murderer, or rapist or child molester…but then he’d blame the victim and the public would believe him.

  4. felix 4
    26 November 2014 at 8:13 am

    Matt Hooton used a lovely turn of phrase on RNZ the other day about Key making “statements which cannot under any circumstances be reconciled with the known facts”.

    Beautiful.

    • Tom Gould 4.1
      26 November 2014 at 9:09 am

      Not as ‘beautiful’ as the new Key tactic, to respond to a ‘fact’ in an independent report by saying it is “contested”. From now on, every ‘fact’ that he doesn’t like is “contested” and therefore is no longer a fact? Even Dick Nixon would tip his hat to that gambit.

      • Tiger Mountain 4.1.1
        26 November 2014 at 9:33 am

        Keys use of this goes back to his “Hard Talk” debacle where he attempted to swat away expert scientific evidence by claiming he could employ his own experts who would have a different view.

        Orwell’s 1984 tome with “doublespeak” and reverse meanings of official words was for beginners compared to the ‘slippery’ PM.

        Whats the old joke; Key says on consecutive days–“white, black, grey, look most New Zillandas don’t care about colours anyway”.

      • Te Reo Putake 4.1.2
        26 November 2014 at 9:36 am

        It’s the bastard son of ” like lawyers, I can provide you with another one that will give you a counterview.” Not a million miles away from the climate change deniers insistence that their ‘alternative viewpoints’ be given equal weight to real science or 9/11 truth deniers rabbitting on about pyroplastic flows.

        In fact, it may well be that what I thought was a dead possum stitched to his head is actually a cunningly coiffured tin foil hat. You gotta flip your wig as Husker Du used to sing.

      • Murray Rawshark 4.1.3
        26 November 2014 at 10:57 pm

        He can always find a new Inspector of Intelligence that will have a different view. After all, they’re just like scientists.

    • Tracey 4.2
      26 November 2014 at 10:14 am

      Perhaps Hooton could turn whistleblower and make his children proud

  5. Tautoko Mangō Mata 5
    26 November 2014 at 8:14 am

    The PM’s behaviour in question time yesterday was appalling. He was like an energiser bunny on speed. His total lack of self discipline and “look at me, I am amazing” smart-arse behaviour, together with his total disrespect for the seriousness of the allegations took his performance into the unhinged category. He is not behaving like a responsible adult and has an embarrassing disregard for the seriousness of the situation. It is pleasing to see some decent reporting by the MSM’s Matt Nippert and Andrea Vance in NZH and Stuff respectively. This matter must not be allowed to disappear.

    • greywarshark 5.1
      26 November 2014 at 10:49 am

      @ Tautoko MM
      I didn’t see yek so thanks for the review. I can believe it, that behaviour is in line with his previous performances. It seems to me that in many countries in the world, it is not the serious, thinking politician that gets to be leader, it is someone who slips into the role of Clown Prince. (Ford as Mayor of Toronto, Canada fi.)

      Voting in an actor, Ronald Reagan, for President in the USA may not have been the first along this line but is an indication of the poor quality material even one of the biggest countries can get landed with once people hear the siren notes of the hurdy-gurdy and the propaganda and popularity machines start churning out their candy floss.

      (Incidentally, Rob Ford, ex Mayor of Toronto, has a rare form of cancer and dropped out of the mayoral election but stayed in a rep City Council Ward 2 and even in his hospital bed was increasing his votes for that position. His brother, a City Councillor, stood for mayor in his place and only lost by 64,000 votes from the winning 394,775. I noted 67 candidates registered to stand for Mayor and about 47 candidates received less than 500 or 0.05 of votes, 28 of those received 0.02 or less.
      This seems likely to make voting more complex having to choose from large numbers- some sort of screening for a representative of a large and widespread city population seems to be needed.)

      • Draco T Bastard 5.1.1
        26 November 2014 at 2:17 pm

        This seems likely to make voting more complex having to choose from large numbers- some sort of screening for a representative of a large and widespread city population seems to be needed.

        Yep, it does and that’s one of the reasons why political parties flourish. It’s far easier to keep track of each party than it is to keep track of all the individuals. To put it another way, it’s possible for an individual to keep track of the political parties but impossible to keep track of all the individuals going for a position.

        Thinking about it, that may actually be the problem the left faces with it’s many political parties.

        • greywarshark 5.1.1.1
          26 November 2014 at 2:33 pm

          DTB
          Well Labour can help by not pretending that its left. Either it is and takes concern of the real interests of the left, or it isn’t left and can go after Mr and Mrs Smug Middle Class, aspirational for all things good for themselves. Labour can’t be about dedicated individualism, its kaupapa has been for fairer redistribution, and better conditions for those who aren’t well off.

          That’s how to reduce the multiplying parties of the left. Labour is (was) getting left because it isn’t/wasn’t.

    • Draco T Bastard 5.2
      26 November 2014 at 2:11 pm

      His total lack of self discipline and “look at me, I am amazing” smart-arse behaviour, together with his total disrespect for the seriousness of the allegations took his performance into the unhinged category.

      I think this sums up his attitude nicely.

  6. Al 6
    26 November 2014 at 8:21 am

    After the election fiasco where it was evident that Key and his junta had been misbehaving behind the scenes, and where he simply denied (lied) about pretty much all of it, the gullable public still voted his junta back in. What has changed in 3 months? Nothing I suspect.

  7. fisiani 7
    26 November 2014 at 8:37 am

    John Key as demonstrated above is clearly being honest and finds it easy to dismiss the increasingly desperate attempts to smear him. His performance in Question Time yesterday was masterful. A man versus boys.
    I laugh when I read ” This matter must not be allowed to disappear”. Please do not let it disappear. Every time the Prime Minister swats away the insect bites he grows in the public esteem.
    The Opposition have tried and failed for 6 years to portray The Prime Minister as a liar. It has not and will not work. Futility is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome.

    • RedLogix 7.1
      26 November 2014 at 8:59 am

      Yes we understand how the Prime Minister’s Office works fisiani. As yesterday’s performance demonstrates beyond all possible equivocation – it is a world in which truth is only used to add to the confusion. Where the bigger the lie the more effective it is.

      It is the now well understood strategy of simply confusing people into paralysis.

    • halfcrown 7.2
      26 November 2014 at 9:22 am

      fisiani, after reading that shit I can’t make up my mind

      A, Are you for real

      B,This is a wind up

      C, You are trying to insult peoples intelligence.

      I suspect B as anyone with the slightest bit of intelligence would not write such utter crap, so in future I will treat all you rabid rantings as such.

    • irascible 7.3
      26 November 2014 at 9:56 am

      Do you actually live on this earth? You are so far out of touch with reality or rational thought processes you must be permanently in the club-house drinking some mind confounding drug on Planet Key . Key was nmasterful? Not at all just a devious, shrieking and irrational individual exposed for what he really is – untrustworthy.

      • fisiani 7.3.1
        26 November 2014 at 10:10 am

        Ah now you understand what political impotence is. In the real world Key was seen on TV last night as calm and in control and carrying on leading the recovery and delivering the brighter future. In the real world the bleaters were seen as just that, bleaters. Christmas will roll around, barbeques will be fired up and John Key will be the politician most people would love to have a beer with.
        Pathetic attempts to smear him do not work. When will you guys ever learn?

        • Tracey 7.3.1.1
          26 November 2014 at 11:11 am

          Did you read the reports?
          If you did you know he lied yesterday. If you didnt you don’t know if he lied or not so cannot claim he is honest.

          Either way you just look foolish.

    • TeWhareWhero 7.4
      26 November 2014 at 10:11 am

      Tell me Fisiani – how does Key swat away insect bites? Does he wave his wand and -just like that – they disappear?

      Key might continue to grow in your esteem but 57% of the respondents on the unfailingly right wing Yahoo NZ news poll yesterday said they do not believe him.

    • Tracey 7.5
      26 November 2014 at 10:16 am

      It is proof that many, like you cannot read, comprehend or god forbid analyse, that he gets away with it. It is becoming increasingly clear that Key’s success is in no small part due to a worrying illiteracy amongst right wing voters. Given the introduction of NS against the wishes of the teaching profession I am led to conclude that NS will hinder not help literacy.

      • fisiani 7.5.1
        26 November 2014 at 11:30 am

        Let me quote the Press editorial to prove how deluded the Left are and how John Key as always was honest.

        [lprent: The link is here, and I have added the quotes to distinguish from it from F’s commentary at the end. ]

        Gwyn found, however, that Tucker, in defending himself, had provided an account of the briefing that was “objectively” misleading, by omissions and failure to provide context. The Prime Minister was also misled by the information Tucker provided. When public discussion about the matter blew up, Tucker failed to correct the situation.

        Tucker’s errors were undoubtedly serious. He was not as measured and objective as he was required to be. These failures compromised the service’s obligation to appear politically neutral and the service has formally apologised for them, both to Goff and to the Prime Minister.

        But contrary to much of the public debate on the matter, Gwyn found no partisan political motive on the part of the SIS or its director. Tucker’s faults were errors of judgment, no more. She also found that no SIS member had improperly leaked information to the blogger Cameron Slater or colluded with him.

        Most importantly for the Prime Minister, Gwyn emphatically rejected any allegation of political collusion or direction of the SIS in its disclosure of information. The so-called “Dirty Politics” conspiracy did not exist.

        [lprent: I can see why you didn’t provide a link or display it quoted. The rest of that last paragraph continues…

        She did find that information was provided by an employee in the Prime Minister’s Office to Slater for political purposes, but that employee was a political one who was not expected to be politically neutral and the information was not classified. Gwyn found that at the time there was a lack of understanding by the SIS of the nature of political appointees in the Prime Minister’s Office. That has now been repaired.

        ]

        In other words, Tucker stuffed up and John Key had no part in his stuff up nor did any of his staff. No matter how much you guys try to smear John Key you cannot succeed.

        [lprent: In other words you are banned for a month. That comment appears to me to be a deliberate attempt to make it hard to determine source, had a carefully abbreviated quotation, and didn’t distinguish between what you were writing and what The Press editorial said. In my view you were deliberately trying to screw debate. Alternatively you need some time to learn how to quote better. Neither are acceptable. ]

    • David H 7.6
      27 November 2014 at 7:15 am

      Fisi Fisi Fisi. Are you mentally deficient? Or do you just blindly follow believing any shit that’s spouted?

      TricKey has acted like a spoilt child in the House for the last 2 days. And Lying to NZ. Unfortunately Carter is his Tame Poodle and lets him get away with all sorts of crap in the house.
      Andrew Little got it right yesterday, when he said that TricKey should just Cut the crap and tell NZ the truth!

  8. Rosie 8
    26 November 2014 at 8:38 am

    Good breakdown thanks r0b. A handy resource.

    Yesterday was stunning. Was that Key’s most hard out spin so far, of the last six years? He spun so hard that Planet Key’s axis must be out of alignment.

    Even John Campbell finished his piece last night by saying what a strange day it was was, where black is white and white is black.

    • Jenny Kirk 8.1
      26 November 2014 at 8:46 am

      And maybe that’s what Key is trying to do, Rosie. Spin the black is white, and white is black line often enough, long enough, and people will start to believe Key – and nothing else.

      • Jones 8.1.1
        26 November 2014 at 10:55 am

        An outrageously Orwellian tactic… cause so much confusion in muddle Nu Zilanders minds that they achieve the mental equivalent of gridlock.

  9. travellerev 9
    26 November 2014 at 8:54 am

    But people in government conspiring? No never. Our government would not do that, ever!!! Our government loves us and people like John Key made their millions with helping old ladies cross the road safely. Oh, and he gives his earnings away to the poor!

  10. Chooky 10
    26 November 2014 at 9:00 am

    …. imo the Left should unite calling for a Royal Commission to explore in detail what the Gwyn Report did not examine ie John key’s role..what he knew ( Winston Peters wants answers to this!) …what evidence Jason Ede destroyed etc…there needs to be accountability at the highest levels of New Zealand government

    …after all Labour probably lost the 2011 Election because of this smearing of Goff ( Mike Williams suggested it had an influence on the outcome 2011 Election and Labour’s loss)….which goes right to the top of the John Key Nact government and the SIS…..and involves a black ops PR spinner operator Slater , who won an award for his work in Israel!!!!….(.and this whole issue blew up over Israeli spies in Christchurch during the Earthquake)….There are BIG questions here yet to be answered

    …imo the SIS must not be given warrantless powers to intrude into New Zealanders’ lives…this is an invitation to more lack of accountability, privatisation of surveillance contracts, blackops and abuse of power such as New Zealanders have just witnessed

  11. TheContrarian 11
    26 November 2014 at 9:00 am

    John Key on Firstline this morning was priceless.

    • RedLogix 11.1
      26 November 2014 at 9:06 am

      I have not heard it – but ask yourself this.

      If you were listening to it as a National voter, or even your typical low-information voter, would you have agreed with Key or not?

      I’m betting that in the absence of critical analysis or the relevant facts, most people would have found him very convincing. Then they listen to other people saying the exact opposite and they simply do not know what to believe.

      • TheContrarian 11.1.1
        26 November 2014 at 9:08 am

        I dunno dude, even a National voter would have found his attempt at explaining himself ham-fisted.

        • RedLogix 11.1.1.1
          26 November 2014 at 9:12 am

          Fair enough. Having not listened to it I’m really just going by Key’s track record.

          But do you think your evaluation of ‘ham fisted’ is the result of your filters (nothing wrong with them) – or is it worth examining very closely how this man has been so very successful for so very long now?

          • TheContrarian 11.1.1.1.1
            26 November 2014 at 9:17 am

            No doubt he has been successful but this morning was particularly bad – he compared politicians talking to bloggers as the inside of the sausage.

            When it comes online make sure to have a gander

            • Tracey 11.1.1.1.1.1
              26 November 2014 at 10:30 am

              have you also noticed his constant references to Slater’s blog as “the media”. It may well be that Slater is media but it’s as if he is seeking to legitimise his behaviour by a mere comparisson to journliasts

              • lprent …
                26 November 2014 at 10:50 am

                If I was a journalist voluntarily, I’d be be pissed with being compared to Slater’s arsewipes that he puts on the site. I guess that is why he refers to it as “media”.

                Then he is implicitly comparing it with people who are doing pure entertainment. The block, Henry, Hoskings, talkback radio, and all of the other toilet paper that is around.

          • Clemgeopin 11.1.1.1.2
            27 November 2014 at 12:36 pm

            This may be the item from TV3 being referenced here.

            http://www.3news.co.nz/nznews/slater-speaks-out-over-texts-to-pm-2014112709?ref=video

      • BM 11.1.2
        26 November 2014 at 9:23 am

        Yep.

        The only thing this bore fest has done is increase the public’s disrespect for politicians and the political process.

        People switched off long ago, all this is just background noise.

        • RedLogix 11.1.2.1
          26 November 2014 at 9:28 am

          Ah yes – the “I’m not interested” defense.

          It is well known that one of the core components of right wing strategy is to switch voters off the political process because it selectively decreases support for the left.

          Yes we do understand and we are interested.

          • BM 11.1.2.1.1
            26 November 2014 at 9:39 am

            Sure, the political train spotters are interested, there’s no denying that.

            But, the average voter?, politics is boring, dirty politics is even more boring.

            ALL Politicians lie, exaggerate and partake in shifty behavior, that’s the public’s perception of politics, true or not.

            Dirty politics isn’t going to bring down John Key.

            • RedLogix 11.1.2.1.1.1
              26 November 2014 at 9:47 am

              Yes – that’s the line Slater has repeatedly used.

              No-one has ever said politics was going to be something pure-white and driven by nothing but selfless principle at all times. On the other hand you can conceive politics to be nothing but dirty, cynical, unprincipled treachery at every bloody, brutal step of the way.

              In reality it exists on a continuum somewhere between these two endpoints. Some of our actions move it one way, other actions the opposite. Which direction are you advocating for BM?

              Because – to repeat the old line – while you may feign indifference to politics, politics will have no hesitation in taking an interest in you. Sooner or later.

              • BM …
                26 November 2014 at 9:58 am

                I’m just trying to see it from the angle of the average voter.

                Most people don’t read past the headlines or even read the news at all.

                All people hear is “blah blah blah, politician X has called politician Y a bastard, politician Z is shocked and has called for politicians A,B,C.D to resign etc….zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

                Honestly, most people just think what a load of bollocks, jeez those politicians are wankers, I wish they’d just all sod off.

                Which too be honest isn’t good for the country, but until all politicians realize this, nothing will change.

                • framu …
                  26 November 2014 at 10:07 am

                  considering that the message is resoundingly “the PMs office used the sis to smear an opponent” can you point to where the public have heard this before?

                  and frankly – shove your concern for democracy and the country – youve spent years sticking up for key and the nats on here – i dont think you get to be all concerned for what hes done to our democracy that easily

                  • BM …
                    26 November 2014 at 10:15 am

                    John Key, STILL NZ’s most popular and trusted politician.
                    That must really chaff your balls.

                    • framu …
                      26 November 2014 at 12:22 pm

                      oh look – you didnt answer the question

                      my balls are quite unchaffed by your feeble goal post shifting

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      27 November 2014 at 12:38 pm

                      John Key, STILL NZ’s most popular and trusted politician.
                      That must really chaff your balls.

                      You’re a fool to not see that Key is also becoming known as NZ’s most untrustworthy and deceitful foreign politician.

                • RedLogix …
                  26 November 2014 at 10:14 am

                  So in your argument the Opposition should be just snoozing their way along – filling seats in the House so as the tele coverage isn’t too embarrassing, politely clapping when required and waiting until the voters decide it’s “their turn” again.

                  And it’s quite ok for the government of the day to indulge in any old shit without anyone paying any attention?

                  On the other hand if I recall the endless stream of attacks on the Helen Clark government from the right – I think you’ve fallen back into mendacious bullshit when under pressure.

                  • Tracey …
                    26 November 2014 at 10:26 am

                    Do you ever wonder, if we accept people like BM believe the words they right, what their children are going to be like as members of our communities? Their personal and professional ethics around honesty and integrity?

                  • BM …
                    26 November 2014 at 10:30 am

                    Truth be told, if I could I’d do away with the current political system all together.

                    I’d just have it that you vote for a PM/President to represent NZ on the world stage.

                    and then have a group of individuals consisting of NZ’s top talent in business, arts, the unions, health, social etc form a board in conjunction with the elected PM to hire the best people to run the various governmental departments.

                    If I had my way there’d be no political parties.

                  • lprent …
                    26 November 2014 at 12:16 pm

                    It probably wasn’t what he said when “Hulun” and Labour were on the treasury benches.

                    and then have a group of individuals consisting of NZ’s top talent in business, arts, the unions, health, social etc form a board in conjunction with the elected PM to hire the best people to run the various governmental departments.

                    It is called a monarchy. The typical way you get to overturn their divine rule is to use a guillotine.

                    Haven’t you been around corporates at all? They are classic for that approach. It invariably takes a shareholder revolt before the entrenched great leader gets removed.

                    • b waghorn …
                      26 November 2014 at 12:19 pm

                      You might want to check the wording in your banning of fisi

                      [lprent: Fixed – the joys of editing in short bursts while waiting for a debugging run. You lose your train of thought. ]

            • minarch 11.1.2.1.1.3
              26 November 2014 at 2:33 pm

              “Dirty politics isn’t going to bring down John Key”

              no hes going to do it to himself

              just watch , its coming

        • tc 11.1.2.2
          26 November 2014 at 9:31 am

          Voter disconnect = Job done by the MSM.

  12. sabine 12
    26 November 2014 at 9:28 am

    Yes he can.

    in saying that, it is going to be very lonely on Planet Key. Eventually the turd blossom everyone is ignoring will loose its luster and peeps will realize the stench that comes from the pretty pretty flower. As Mrs. Collins has just learned, loyalty is not a virtue that dear leader puts any value on.

    What will get him is the economy. The disappearing surplus, the new deficit, the slow down of Growth, the increasing cost of living, the diminishing salaries etc etc etc.

    As the saying goes it is the economy. National Voters don’t vote for the well being of the society, they don’t vote for the hungry kids and their unemployed and homeless parents. They vote for their own pockets and check books, and when the balance looks crap they will vote for a change. This might not last long, but eventually Dear Leader will go.

    Or the other option is of course to become a Police State, and a totalitarian regime, and than it will be Dear Leader for ever. 🙂

  13. Blue 13
    26 November 2014 at 9:35 am

    Yes, he can get away with it. He can get away with anything. The media is bored already, judging by the lack of effort and the positioning of articles on this matter. They will have moved on completely by tomorrow.

    The Herald editorial sums up their position:

    Three years on, it seems a trifling issue

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11364401

    You get that? The clearest evidence yet of absolutely unacceptable behaviour from the Prime Minister and his government and the media don’t give a shit.

    • Tracey 13.1
      26 November 2014 at 10:24 am

      Their faux outrage is over. They stood with their mouths open and recorded the Pms appalling framing of the reports and then promptly regurgitated it for their papers.

      I wonder how many actually bothered to read the reports? Like the Pm I guess they don’t need to, they let others frame it for them.

    • Tracey 13.2
      26 November 2014 at 11:06 am

      seems what they consider trifling has changed over the years

      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10436738

      • RedLogix 13.2.1
        26 November 2014 at 1:58 pm

        To be fair the whole paragraph reads:

        Three years on, it seems a trifling issue, but non-partisanship in the intelligence agencies is important. The Prime Minister should have shown better judgment and been discreet. His office should hold higher standards. Shabby politicisation of security information must be avoided.

        Not exactly a thundering denouncement, not the “Democracy Under Attack” hysteria when it threatened their advertising income – but yes even this writer knows it stinks.

  14. northshoreguynz 14
    26 November 2014 at 10:03 am

    Life for the right is sure going to be tough after 2017.

  15. ianmac 15
    26 November 2014 at 10:17 am

    Thanks Rob. I guess that Key has no choice but to bluster and deny as to admit anything at all would be suicidal. So we expect more of the same from Key.
    Until we the people turn off from “overload.”

    • Tracey 15.1
      26 November 2014 at 10:25 am

      It is obvious from his statements yesterday that the PM didnt actually read the reports. If he did, he didnt understand the words.

  16. Tracey 16
    26 November 2014 at 10:19 am

    I see some of our regular apologists are back today… Read up the Farrar and WO blogs overnight so they know what to think today? I use the word “read” loosely (see comment above about reading comprehension)

  17. Tracey 17
    26 November 2014 at 10:28 am

    “Gwyn: “Under previous administrations, the relationship between the NZSIS and the Prime Minister was conducted almost exclusively between the Prime Minister and the Director, with very little involvement by officials or advisers. After the change of government, the contact between the Service and the Prime Minister’s Office became more diffuse and Service staff engaged directly with political advisers in PMO.”

    Inotherwords despite the squeals of Labour did it too, this government deliberately devised a strategy to loosen the lips, as it were, by letting more people into the secret loop, making leaks more likely and accountability harder to pin down. Under Labour it was Clark, and ANY leaks could only have come from her and condemn her accordingly.

    i would like to hear Goff publicly deny leaking the Gwyn report.

  18. ianmac 18
    26 November 2014 at 10:54 am

    Jane Clifton has a nice touch. Ironic?
    Key faced bombardment for much of the afternoon. It was just as well, then, that he had read a completely different report. According to him, it exonerated him and his office, failing to uphold a single Opposition allegation.

    Opposition MPs spluttered and frowned. The allegations had been upheld with knobs on. The PM’s office had been caught using the SIS for political purposes. …..

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/63539066/Planet-Key-where-realitys-contested

    • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark 19.1
      26 November 2014 at 12:36 pm

      Thanks, Brigid.
      Important to do this.
      Also, need to translate that critical mass of people signing up on to the next bit of action.
      Suggestions, anyone?
      As part of documenting serious public concerns about the matter, people should also email JK and copy to many/all MPs.

  20. Karen 20
    26 November 2014 at 12:22 pm

    Listening to parliamentary question time isn’t possible for me because of work commitments, but the responses to questions 2 and 4 today should be interesting after that gobsmacking interview of John Key with Mary Wilson last night on Checkpoint.
    http://www.parliament.nz/en-nz/pb/business/qoa/00HOH_OralQuestions/list-of-questions-for-oral-answer

  21. Tel 21
    26 November 2014 at 1:07 pm

    Can he get away with?

    Today perhaps. Tomorrow possibly, but a week, a month, a year from now the inevitable contradictions he’s currently offering up will make for cringe worthy media moments. I’m actually enjoying watching this psycopath stutter nervous responses to current media questions, and they like me must be trying to hold back the laughter as the poorly placed adjectives pour out as he flails about in a bid to buy time, hoping this nightmare of his own making goes away… ding ding ding.

  22. Bob 22
    26 November 2014 at 2:13 pm

    I find this quote interesting “Mr Slater also later provided a series of emails to and from Mr Ede, in which Mr Ede expressed his concern that he “might be in the shit” over his use of the NZSIS information”
    If he was doing this under direction from John Key (as continually gets assumed with no facts to back it up) then why would he think he is in the shit?
    Is it possible John Key had absolutely no idea what he was doing (like he has been saying for months)?

    Also, Anthony, did you even read what you wrote under: “Key: “The report is absolutely crystal clear. It says I played no role. “?
    It just goes to back up the fact that Key played no role! That is why he was also issued an apology, he was incorrectly briefed by Tucker and your quotes back this up!

    • lprent 22.1
      26 November 2014 at 2:25 pm

      Ah no. The PMs office wasn’t part of the terms of reference, except that is was clear that was where the impetus to abruptly declassify and pass the information to Slater came from.

      How much other security information has been abused in the same way? And passed to the arseholes of politics like Ede and Slater?

      We need a new enquiry looking at what other information has been abused in the same way. And if John Key or his senior staff deliberately set the system up to facilitiate such abuses of sensitive information for political purposes.

    • framu 22.2
      26 November 2014 at 3:13 pm

      so your saying key has no fucking idea what his office staff, and his damn chief of staff, are up to?

      pull the other one bob – for a man who has a reputation as being very focused and over a lot of detail it doesnt add up that key doesnt know whats being done in his office.
      Never mind that – even if he didnt know he still responsible – they are his staff!

      there are only two options – key is either complicit or incompetent – pick one

      • Bob 22.2.1
        26 November 2014 at 4:28 pm

        C: His staff member went outside of the scope of their role without permission, hence “Mr Ede expressed his concern that he “might be in the shit” over his use of the NZSIS information”.

        • McFlock 22.2.1.1
          26 November 2014 at 4:45 pm

          So key is able to run the country but he can’t even keep his own office in line?

          • Bob 22.2.1.1.1
            26 November 2014 at 5:12 pm

            Are you saying no-one on the left has ever stepped outside their remit to release information to the media against the wishes of the leader of the time? Come on.
            There are 12 managers in the Prime Ministers department and they all have staff, there is no way in hell anyone could be completely across what every one of those staff are up too every day for 7 years! He would rely on his 12 managers being across everything that is going on, and when one of those staff members says that he “might be in the shit”, that is a clear indication he has not been working to his remit!

            • One Anonymous Bloke 22.2.1.1.1.1
              26 November 2014 at 6:45 pm

              Or that he realises that “plausible deniability” means he’s the one up for the $5k per email fines. Or that he deleted the emails so who knows what the context of that conversation was.

              Or that he’s traded on his time as a National Party bagman for a lucrative career in business, as per the system they’ve established.

            • McFlock 22.2.1.1.1.2
              26 November 2014 at 11:00 pm

              Stop trying to make it sound like Ede was a janitor or an intern.

              He was receiving direct instruction and information from the guy who answers to key. He was feeding information to a guy key was in regular contact with – that was his job. If he wasn’t told exactly what the SIS had, he couldn’t have held slater’s hand in writing the OIA request. They told the guy who photographs cigarette butts and sends the picks to WO. Just because he’s the guy to throw under the bus, it doesn’t mean he’s the end of it.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 22.2.1.2
          26 November 2014 at 5:01 pm

          Which is worse, a conniving corrupt Prime Minister, or the incompetent failure you describe, who gives people who burgle databases senior and sensitive roles in their office, and then acts all surprised when they break the law again?

          Hole, meet spade.

        • framu 22.2.1.3
          27 November 2014 at 7:47 am

          so you think “in the shit” means in the shit from JK?! Nothing to do with using state secrets to smear an opponent during an election?

          pull the other one – your beginning to sound as hopelessly deluded as fisti

          but – even you pathetic attempts at explaining away the indefensible doesnt escape the fact that key is responsible – they are his staff

          really pathetic bob

  23. greywarshark 23
    26 November 2014 at 6:07 pm

    John Key is too clever to care about truth to win a point or argument. So it may be necessary to learn other methods of winning disputations with or about him.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_Being_Right

    Schopenhauer
    http://www.coolhaus.de/art-of-controversy/
    There are 38 methods of doing your opponent in verbally.
    Impudence in an arguer seems to be a winning card.

    One way is to bewilder by mere bombast. If the opponent is secretly concerned about some personal failing then by stating something with confidence and quickly, he can be diverted thinking that he has missed some important point and made to look uncertain.

    Another is to find one instance to the contrary. I think that must be along the lines of finding a fault and then making out that the whole of the other’s reasoning is wrong.

    Then when you know you are losing the argument, you may start to become rude and take an ad hominem spoiler approach. If done to you, the response should be to say calmly ‘That has no bearing on the point in dispute.’ That is likely to deflect the behaviour!

  24. NZJester 24
    27 November 2014 at 12:49 am

    Truth 0 – John Key #ERROR. Oh darn the character limit on this comment box is to small to record his score against the Truth.

  25. les 25
    27 November 2014 at 8:04 am

    when Slater was involved the Truth went down the toilet!

  26. Liminal 26
    27 November 2014 at 11:00 am

    I’m a bit late in following all these threads and comments but nobody seems have pointed out that it is the very odd ambiguity of the Gywn report that has allowed JK to have wriggle-room about political interference/manipulation with the SIS. In detailed sections it stated that politics were involved yet the summary says no. Why has there been no criticism of the report content-structure itself? But then I’m no lawyer and unfamiliar with subtleties of this kind.

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