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Judith Collins is not John Key

Written By: - Date published: 7:52 am, July 2nd, 2021 - 168 comments
Categories: blogs, internet, Judith Collins, Media, twitter, you couldn't make this shit up - Tags:

I honestly am not sure what Judith’s game plan.  It is sort of evident but it is so bizarre that I question whether she is playing six dimensional chess or a rather bad game of tic tac toe.

Elements within National think it is the latter,  Like Chris Finlayson who said this week about Collins’ reign:

Now I know sometimes, you know, brands go off, but I’ve never seen brand destruction like I’ve seen in the National Party in the last year or two.”

He said National had to go back to its roots of liberal conservatism.  I think he means the sort of party that Todd Muller and not Simon Bridges might lead.

He also said:

“You’re talking to the wrong person if you expect me to express any sympathy for the current plight of the National Party, they deserve everything that’s come to them.

“Put that in your article: they deserve everything they’ve got,” he said.

“Political parties have to feel the cold blast of opposition before they acquire the humility to be in government again. But if you’re asking me to express sympathy for them, forget it.”

In the deepest darkest days of Labour’s civil war I have not seen anything approaching this for acerbic criticism.  Not even from Shane Jones.

Then yesterday Collins chose to publicly support Rachel Stewart.  Don’t get me wrong, I used to think that Rachel was hilarious and I have said this in the past.  A few years ago I described her as a tough uncompromising columnist and not someone to hold back.

I was right about that.  She recently tweeted:

Is it wrong that the leftie progressive in me wanted her gun licence taken off her?

And blow me down but this actually happened.

Instead of treating this as a perfectly appropriate response to a pretty outlandish statement the forces of the right reacted angrily.

According to them this was PC gone mad.

Surely a good old girl should be allowed to keep her weapons even though she not only thought about stripping a complete stranger naked, let him loose in a field, jump in her ute (real lefties don’t own utes) and then hunt him while driving a vehicle under the influence of alcohol and engaging in disorderly behaviour, but publicly stated this for all to see.

Call me old fashioned but I think it best that the authorities should make sure she does not have access to weapons of mass or individual destruction.  Just in case.  After all it is a privilege.

Rachel’s predicament was commented on by Judith Collins.  One suspects that Collins’s press secretary Ani O’Brien may have had something to do with it.

I struggle to understand where Ani is at.  Apart from a complete indifference to anyone struggling with a complex view of their gender identity I discern no other political belief.  Although taking up the job as Judith’s Press Secretary suggest at least an indifference to Judith’s world view.

I presume that Ani tweeted on behalf of Judith something quite vague but intended to express support for Rachel.  Maybe it was Judith herself.

Here it is.

I don’t understand what has happened to Rachel.  In 2015 she said this about John Key:

Call me old-fashioned but the title of Prime Minister should mean something. Jumping in a cage and picking up a bar of soap in a nod to prison rape doesn’t really factor into that.

Nor does three-way handshakes, the “gay red top”, mincing down the catwalk, or planking.

The only consolation I feel is that I’m far from alone in feeling embarrassed to say I’m a New Zealander right now.

The list of shame is so long – climate change inaction, the flag debacle, domestic violence, child poverty – to name a few.

Add to the mix a Prime Minster who thinks it’s a hoot to make fun of rape, is unapologetic, and blames everyone else for not “getting it” and I think you can see why many of us are collectively cringing.

About Rachel’s latest comments I am cringing.  I thought that John Key was pretty bad.  Judith is way worse.  At least Key had a Tony Blair like middle way theme about him.  To support Judith because she is strong is akin to supporting her because she crushes cars.  Dear reader, neither is true.

Bomber Bradbury, champion of the left wing and ridiculer of this Government seems to think that Stewart is being given a hard time.  A while ago he opined that Stewart was being lynched by a twitter mob which given her recent comment and the media it was expressed in is rather funny.  More recently he said that Stewart and O’Brien were going to be criminalised for their beliefs.  My response is that threatening bodily harm on an individual publicly will normally suffice.

Without any irony Bradbury said:

This debate cuts to the very heart of identity and how we perceive ourselves, it requires so much more love and respect than it has attracted and based on the toxic manner it has been waged, I have no doubt it’s petty enough to hunt down women like Ani & Rachel for a wave of vendettas once it passes.

Angry denunciations of the Government by repeated use of the word “woke” is easy.  He should back this up by actual analysis.

Collins wading into the debate and expressing support for Stewart is weird.  Maybe she was playing a sixth dimensional chess move hoping to fracture some feminists away from the left.  Maybe she mucked up her tic tac toe move and was desperately hunting for pro gun anti Government trumpian voters.

Whatever her intent her plan is not working.

I used to be in awe of John Key’s ability to straddle the centre of New Zealand politics and gain and retain support.  I am astounded at Judith’s inability to even hold her party together.

Clearly Judith is not John Key.

168 comments on “Judith Collins is not John Key ”

  1. Drowsy M. Kram 1

    Not sure Collins still has an appetite for 'leading' the National party – but then who does?

  2. Incognito 2

    JC sounds just like any other on SM, a dime in a dozen. You cannot lead by Tweet.

  3. tc 3

    Like blinglish Jude gets her turn to ride up front of team hollowmen as reward for her diligent efforts.

    Jk was the gambler, knew when to fold after his dealing was done. A traders instinct whereas this lot went for that ride and as career polly's no plan B or hedge as they say.

  4. gsays 4

    Without knowing the context they came from, I would have thought Stewart's comments were an example of misandry.

    The 'Leader of the opposition' endorses that stance.

    Or am I missing something? Dark irony?

    • Rosemary McDonald 4.1

      gsays… Dark irony? My thoughts when this first hit the fan…

      I truly believe that Twitter is a vile and sad cesspit, and all those who venture therein should accept that shit spewed will come back manyfold. Eventually.

      I used to enjoy Stewart's Herald pieces. She as cutting insight and refuses to pander to the ever increasing Tribe of the Delicate. Her history speaks of one who is not afraid to change stance should she see another , better way.

      She has herself been the target of some seriously vicious on line attacks…

      "Free speech is important to me but hate speech is unacceptable . . . I don't believe you can say things about rape and death, or using a bull to inseminate you, shagging girlfriends or putting you with the offal, and get away with it," Stewart said.

      That unfortunate flight of fancy she tweeted was in response to a man referring to women fighting to protect the rights of women as 'grubs'. I am pretty sure he's not an entomologist, so he was in all probability wanting to conjour the image of creepy, crawly, slimy, distasteful and ultimately beings to be shunned, rejected and eliminated. Oh. The power of one word.

      I probably wouldn't have posted the offending tweet….but I can see myself writing it with an ironic 'taste of his (and his brothers') medicine' grin for all the times he and his ilk have hunted down women(and turned the spotlight on GCF ) for committing the heinous crime of trying to protect the rights of women and girls.

      • gsays 4.1.1

        I have not had anything to do with Twitter, the only time I see it is when it gets reposted here on TS.

        The sad and vile description sounds apt in relation to Stewart's comments. Twitter seems to be the equivalent of a bar leaner in a '70's public bar. You can say the most vile things to yr group with half a skin full of social lubricant.

        Misandry and misogyny are ok.

    • Rae 4.2

      The person in question is actually a trans woman, she is a woman. I struggle to understand what this mish mash of people who hate on them so much, have against them, but it is bloody awful.

      • Sacha 4.2.1

        The person in question is actually a trans woman

        First time I've heard that – where did you find out?

  5. I Feel Love 5

    Heh, Chris Finlayson & humility. But yes, threaten someone with a shootin' & act indignant when the police do their jobs & take your guns away. No sympathy. Sure, the "grubs" comment was crass, but jeez.

  6. GreenBus 6

    Aunty Jude is trying to bring order to National and speaks truthfully with some policy ideas that the centre could go with. I respect her for that. John Key was a political liar who intentionally mislead NZ. Yet John Key was popular and Judith is hated? Both engage in dirty politics and seem immovable from boomer focused policy that repels younger voters. Judiths lack of popularity will probably be the cause of her end, as leader, although she is capable IMHO of fixing the shambles that National are. BTW I do not support National just giving a little credit where I see credit due. Bomber is an angry man that doesn't suffer fools like me questioning all the hyperbole over the hate speech question. His site is overrun with right wing trolls that enthusiastically agree with his anti Govt views and I've been moderated out of it. Fair enough it's his site but so much for free speech?

    • tc 6.1

      JK had qualities that allowed him to woo the centre with the snake oil routine and had no political baggage.

  7. Rosemary McDonald 7

    Apart from a deep seated hatred of anyone struggling with a complex view of their gender identity …

    I missed that.

    Where Ani O'Brien displayed "deep seated hatred" of anyone. Much less transgender people.

    You need to give examples, and let the Court of The Standard judge for ourselves.

    Because one day, under the right conditions, that accusation cold see a person locked up in prison.

    [I disagree with your conclusion but I agree that my language was too strong so I have replaced this with “complete indifference to” – MS]

    • Rosemary McDonald 7.1

      Not good enough MS. Cough up with the examples.

      Any Year nine English student will tell you "complete indifference to" is a fucking long way from "deep seated hatred'.

      • Visubversa 7.1.1

        And "struggling with gender identity" is one thing – "demanding the normalisation and facilitation of their parapyllia" is another. However, I do hope that this establishes the standard and that violent threats to anyone are taken seriously.

      • tracey 7.1.2

        Agree- examples needed

      • mickysavage 7.1.3

        Read comments below.

  8. Anker 8
    • Completely agree that Rachel Stewart should have her gun licence removed and this shows the law is working.
    • RS comments are appalling and completely unacceptable.
  9. I Feel Love 9

    I had no idea about this O'Brien person, here's a Twitter thread, free speech n' all https://mobile.twitter.com/CateSpice/status/1410694473416273920

    • Sacha 9.1

      Follow-up point about editorial commitment:

      • Psycho Milt 9.1.1

        There's a usual explanation for why a news media company won't publish a journalist's story if there's a risk of legal action, that explanation being that the media company has checked the journo's story and realised that it's likely to lose its shirt if it publishes such a defamatory load of old cobblers about an individual.

    • Anker 9.2

      I feel love. This is hearsay about O'Brien. This is someone saying what someone wrote on twitter. In fact not even saying what was written but calling it bigoted.

      That is not evidence

      • I Feel Love 9.2.1

        I agree, but this is out there. It's a mess.

        • weka

          Yes, mess.

          RS had me blocked for a long time, she took time off twitter, she's come back with a new account. Additionally, lots of people either block or have set their accounts to private (I can't see the CateSpice tweets). All of which makes it hard to look for evidence to see what people's assertions might mean.

          Since this thing blew up on twitter in the past week the only tweets I've seen to support the assertions about her and AO are just that, assertions. I saw one thread asking for example tweets of RS' twitter joke/threats, but other than that nada. When I talked about the hunting tweet on twitter, the push back was that I didn't know what I was talking about because everyone knows RS is a transphobe and bigot from reading her TL. But no supporting evidence.

          So it's *really hard to put the assertions in context. People who think that calling a trans woman a man is literally violence and leads to trans deaths have a different perspective on bigotry than others. And those same people are almost completely silent about the violent and sexually violent imagery posted at GCFs all the time. There's something not right here.

  10. Pat 10

    I wonder if Rachel Stewart had made the comment about 'hunting down naked strangers' in her ute no less, in the pub (or at a PTA meeting) whether her gun licence would have been revoked?

    Silence appears the only defence……. and that isnt good.

  11. Sacha 11

    PG gone mad

    Do you know the piano's on my foot?

    [Haha. Oops. Now corrected – MS]

    • Forget now 11.1

      There's also a sentence fragment in the paragraph before the Bradbury quote, if we're doing typos. Pretty clear from context you meant; Stewart (or; She), to be there.

      and Ani were being criminalised for I am not sure what.

      [Right you are. My early morning blogging has gone to pieces since I gave up caffeine. Now corrected – MS]

  12. Pete 12

    Someone says, "The country loving man in me wants to invite my gun-toting mates round, release a posse of South Auckland overstayers in the paddock before dawn, jump on the back of the V8 ute and hunt them down with spotlights while hooting and hollering and downing some bevies…"

    What do you reckon Bomber Bradbury would say about that?

    • weka 12.1

      one difference is that RS's tweet was to an individual not a class of people (and the person afaik isn't trans). People are treating the tweet as if she said a posse of trans people, but she didn't. Do you see the difference? It matters for the hate laws proposal.

  13. Anne 13

    Could it be that Rachel Stewart was expressing her frustration towards a particular person without any intention of acting out her words. It's quite common for people to say… I want to kill so and so because he/she makes me so angry. In days gone by my late older sister informed me she was going to kill me on several occasions. I never turned a hair.

    Granted, to say something like that in a public place was asking for trouble. I doubt she will do it again.

    • Sacha 13.1

      They would have looked at her pattern of public utterances, not a one-off. Also failed to notify a change of address and not keeping firearms secured, which breach that law in any case.

    • weka 13.2

      Here's the tweet she was replying to, a trans ally calling gender critical feminists grubs. There will be history there, as well as the context of gender/sex wars. RS's reaction was disproportionate and the police should be investigating. But imo Micky's post is misleading.

      RS does have a pattern of behaviour of saying stupid shit on twitter. She's brash and inflammatory. This tweet was way over the line, but I don't believe she is dangerous. The police have no way of knowing that and so should investigate in the context of her other tweets. You can follow the link to her tweet and the notice she got from the police.


      • weka 13.2.1

        the twitter thread that kicked this off this week, with screen shots of the police notice.

        • Sabine

          did you follow down the thread where she and another person discuss how it took several days – a month – for the police to show up and confiscate these weapons?

          Good fucking grief. If she really were an evil doer we would be discussing the failure of the police and state again.

          • weka

            I couldn't get the timeline straight tbh, and there may be legitimate reasons for the delay.

            • Sabine

              read through, its quite funny actually. But in saying that, it took them 9 days to come and get the weapons from the point of where the warrant (might not be correct term) issued to do so.

              If this was a terrorist, they then had 9 days to do something. Feel safer yet?

          • Sacha

            Funny how doing something abusive in public might attract the police to your home where they notice other infringements..

        • Sabine

          Maybe a counter claim should be laid as clearly calling women who speak for women 'grub' is dehumanising?

          Anyone who gardens knows that grubs are something that is killed, viciously and without remorse.


          Or is calling women 'grub' now a normal thing? What next? Vermin?

          • weka

            here you go, first row, third image across,


            • Sabine

              I am German, i was put through re-education starting at age 11. Hence my comment. I would consider reporting this as 'hate speech', and i would do so now every single time. Same as if someone were to call me "menstruater' 'incubator' 'breeder'.

              Maybe really that is what needs to be done by women. Turn their own rhetoric against them, and ask how is this OK? And that question should be asked by all who have women in their life’s. Because at the end of the day, it is again Men deciding what a women is or is not. And it appears dear Weka, that you, me, Rachel etc and all those that want women’s places protected are not quite women enough to pass the muster.

              • weka

                heh, that's it. All women are equal, but some women are more equal than others. And the boys get to decide which ones.

              • weka

                what was the re-education?

                • Sabine

                  Sister Gisela on our first class of history “Germany” took us on a whirlwind from the first world war to the second, and she had a big box of stuff from that time. A lot of propaganda tools, pictures, sticker books, post cards etc. Etc.

                  And we watched approved clips of the Germans discussing Jewish Germans or other Jewish Europeans as 'vermin' 'cockroaches' 'grub' that needed to be exterminated, cleansed etc.

                  And then we went further and further. And by the age of 12 i prayed that my Grandfathers who both died in a ditch somewhere in Russia died fast enough to not have participated in this war. Innocence of children ey?

                  But this was a mandated 're-education' part of the last remnants of 'de-nazification' in Germany.

                  I always joked that the Niemoeller Poem ‘when they came for …” was not actually an act of understanding what he was partially guilty of by voting for that regime, but rather a Lament of someone who never thought it could be him.

                  So yes, the comment about 'Grub' should have rung some Alarm bells. If that is considered ok, then women the world over are in big trouble.

                  • Nic the NZer

                    I find it interesting that the German approach to this involves actually showing you the propaganda material. Does this have any interface with the hate speech laws as the educators must be in possession of it?

                    • Sabine

                      At the time and still i was surprised how ordinary it was.

                      You know the collection items books with stickers? That, but all with the images of the Nazi Establishment, of the Ralleys, flag draped windows. Etc. Coloring books. Post Cards. And of course the parents then would have bought that stuff like they do today.

                      The money from the Weimarer Republic that had extra 00 stamped on to increase the value of the bank note. Pictures of people burning money to keep warm.

                      The films and the visits of the concentration camps that was all part of the education of 'never forget'.

                      All these items were highly restricted for teaching purposes only, were held in a locked box, and then were shared with the class. All of these items are accounted for after every term. They are purely a teaching Material and i would assume that many or most schools in germany had some of these materials.

                    • Nic the NZer []

                      I think I have some idea of the reaction having watched Schindlers list and read Night at school. I think the hyper-inflation elements do seem connected with some modern elements of the German economic phyche. On the other hand my understanding of the causes of political discontent were that the Austrian (school) economic policy (which lead to a depression in Austria), the Versai Treaty reparations and the confiscation of German industrial output were drivers of the hyper-inflation itself and the political discontent which elevated the Nazi party.

                    • Sabine

                      It does not matter what lead to it, what matters who paid the price for the ideas of a few, and that is always so in the end.

                      When you have clips before movies (and these clips were run as advertising before evening screenings) in which you explain with vivid imagery and self righteous tone that people are vermin, unrestrained in their reproduction, dirty, disease carrying etc, after a while it becomes normal. And the Germans did nothing, and paid a huge price together with those that they killed in their camps and during the war.

                      So, to go back to the thread, while Rachel was certainly wrong to write that tweet, so were the people that for years have been abusing her online simply for writing about stuff – this was discussed here, and now with having the same coming from overzealous trans – activists. At some stage one has enough.

                      And her response is to a man who on various occasions called a group of women 'grub'. And insect/larvae that generally is eradicated so as to protect ones lawn and garden.

                      And yet, that is no where discussed. Actions and Consequences.

            • Anker

              Yes Weka this is despicable abuse.

              I can't support Rachel S for what she said and I think it is appropriate she lost her gun licence. But if she has been harrassed and intimidated and threatened with rape, that is truly vile and those people need some action taken against them.

              I first started to read about trans gender ideology because cause I started hearing stories of women being called bigots, transphobic and worse if they didn't repeat the statement trans women are real women. And I also heard how they were being excluded from Rainbow and Pride (Lesbian women). One who I have posted about before has terminal cancer and was legimately inside at Pride then when outside to where the protesters who were being excluded were, as her partner was there. When she went to enter the MF centre, security guards manhandled her and then the police were called. I found this despicable.

              Then I read about Maya Farater who lost her job for stating GC views. Academics in the UK being harassed and intimidated for speaking GC views. These views are usually around the belief that biological sex is a material reality and that gender ideology doesn't trump it. Then I read about a student in Scotland who said women have vaginas and are generally weaker than men. And how other students complained about this and her university investigated the complaint. The more I read, the more I thought wtf is going on here? Then I read the science on transwomen in sport. They have a significant biological advantage over women. The fastest women can be outrun by the 10,000 fastest men. Then I read about how the evidence for puberty blockers decreasing gender dysphoria improving body image and mental health was very weak and should only be prescribed as a part of a well controlled research study with high levels of informed consent. Then I read about 16 year olds getting double masectomies at 16 years and hysterectomies at 18 years and I felt ill.

              I then I read about Stonewall and how a whistle blower at the Tavistock Clinic in the UK spoke out about how these activists had infiltrated TC and were influencing clinical decisions.

              And so it goes. So I have a great deal of concern about gender ideology and its impact particularly on women and their human rights.

              I think anyone who thinks they may want to transition to the opposite sex needs a great deal of support to explore that decision and work out what is best for them. Ideally done with the support of clinicians who involve family and don't rush the decision, attempt to understand what is going on. Then with this support they should be free to transition if that is what they decide to do. And they should be supported with that decision and be afforded basic human rights.

          • Drowsy M. Kram

            Fawlty Towers 'Don't mention the war' episode removed from UKTV
            But they’re vermin, Fawlty!smiley

        • Anne

          Grateful to you weka.

          Tweet from Stewart:

          Despite the many death, rape, "die TERF" threats I've received from trans activists over the years, I've never gone to the Police about them. I'm a country girl, not a sook. For the record, I'm not a member of Speak Up For Women and never have been. I fully support what they do.

          I've not followed the debate but the reaction by "her enemies" looks like vindictiveness. As for the police… their ability to see through a mesh of spiteful actions and reporting is sometimes lacking – something I can attest to.

          I went through a similar experience 30 years ago when a jealous and insane person reported me on the grounds… I was supposedly arranging a contract killing of a former American with whom I was associated through my work-place. He was a tyrant and a bully.

          What followed was unbelievable especially as no-one bothered to tell me why it was happening. I was under constant observation both at my place of work as well as in the vicinity of my home. There were acts of vandalism and intimidation which I believe now were being conducted by the individual who made the false claim. Not a finger was lifted against that person but my reputation was left in tatters.

          Therefore my sympathy lies with Rachel Stewart even if she is inclined to be brash and inflammatory. She’s got grounds by the looks of it.

          • Anker

            Thanks Anne. This does provide a context re Rachel Stewart/. What appalling behaviour towards her. Disgusting.

            And you have mentioned what you went through some years back before and I always get the feeling that it must have been horrific for you, so I am very sorry you went through it.

            I have never seen anything that I would consider as hate speech by Gender Critical feminists (barring this example from RS).

            I have seen countless vile things written about "terfs" as Weka posted. Even someone referring to SUFW as a hate group, is completely wrong and now a high court judge has said that.

            I have to say I think gender ideologists often present very weak arguments eg someone on The Daily Blog saying if you have to go to court to prove you are not a hate group, then you probably are a hate group. Or get very pedantic about language, which I know is important, but not everyone can be expected to know what the current usage is. And even as language evolves, I think we have the right to reject some changes, eg I refuse to call women menstruators, birthing units, chest feeders or any of these terms that rob biological women of their true identities.

            • Anne

              The sooner people stop slagging off one another the better for everyone. There is always the prospect of serious consequences for innocent people who find themselves caught up in the web of deceit. That is what happened to me.

              I have lost all faith in the authorities of this country who have swept my story under a carpet in the hope it will never see the light of day. I'm looking for a reputable and trustworthy journalist who is interested in learning about what was going on behind the scenes in the 1970s and 1980s. Whether I'm able to find such a person only time will tell.

      • Patricia Bremner 13.2.2

        Perhaps triggered by too many bevies?

  14. Jenny how to get there 14

    Who are these people?

  15. Anker 15

    Always a context to things, but Rachel Stewart (whether she is a good person or not) over stepped the line. Gun licence gone yes. Three years in jail no.

    The Listener has an interesting article on hate speech and uses the Isreal Folou example re his comments on gay people (which is from his religious perspective).

    I personally rather see people called out and ridiculed that put in prison for these views. The best response was of course when some genius played YMCA (loud) at a game of football he was playing in the interval.

    John Richardson’s comments unpleasant. Not worthy of a visit from the police though or a fine. Again SUFW used lawful means (the high court to establish they are not a hate group and they have democratic right to hold meetings at public libraries.
    People do say hurtful offensive things, but best to ignore or call out. Send up if your as clever as the person in charge of the music at interval at a footie game. This way it keeps these views in the public domain for people to debate and if needs be send up as in the case of Israel Falou.
    I personally don’t want a situation like in the UK re the Harry Miller case. I thought what Harry said on twitter was distasteful, but getting the police involved is Orwelian

  16. weka 16

    A while ago he opined that Stewart was being lynched by a twitter mob which given her recent comment and the media it was expressed in is rather funny.

    This is disappointing to see written. Some context.

    RS used to write for a provincial newspaper in hard farmer country. She routinely got the kind of nasty shit directed at her, including sexual violence threats, that is common for feminists online. Something I'm pretty sure you've not had directed at yourself in a sustained way micky.

    When she started writing about the sex/gender wars she used the same brash and inflammatory language that she uses for everything else, but was then subjected to social media attacks from the left.

    To put this in further context, this is the kind of stuff that gets routinely posted towards GCFs online.


    Take your time looking through that and think about the milieu that RS has been tweeting in. Think about what happens to women’s sense of wellbeing, their politics, what they have to do to stay in the debate. Think about how much violence against women has been normalised online when talking about how trans rights impacts on women. Think about why that might be.

    Left wing and progressive men have stood by and let that happen. It took GCF MPs in the UK calling twitter to appear before parliament to get a change in policy whereby twitter will now remove "die terfs" if someone makes a complaint. Women's voices weren't enough.

    Ani's context: she's been getting pile ons, abuse, and organised twitter attacks for maybe seven years, including during times when she was dealing with hefty personal health issues. I watched a couple of years ago and liberals on twitter organised to stop her getting housing when she shifted cities. I've watched her radicalising to the right all through that time – she used to be left wing. I disagree with her a fair amount, and I think SUFW have some serious tactical and strategic approach problems. But, they are the only people willing to put their heads above the parapet in NZ and insist on talking about women's rights being eroded. So I get why she has done what she has done.

    The left still has to learn that if you beat your allies with a stick, no matter how sure you are of your entitlement to do so, they stop being allies.

    Mischaracterising gender critical beliefs as trans hatred is part of that. It also means that the women who would be debating in more evenhanded ways aren't heard, because they are too afraid to speak up. If the goal is to get all women to STFU, then this is only partially successful, and is increasingly looking like a LW own goal.

    I too have concerns about GC beliefs becoming criminalised. The police cite 'anti-trans' in their suspension of RS' licence. In the UK people are being arrested for tweeting things like trans women are men. Women lose their jobs. Some UK police forces keep a hate speech register of people who have said such things on twitter even where no law has been broken.

    (edited a few times).

    • The left still has to learn that if you beat your allies with a stick, no matter how sure you are of your entitlement to do so, they stop being allies.

      So fucking true. It's difficult to keep calling yourself part of the left when most of the left is actively hostile to you and behaving like nobody you'd want to be associated with.

      • Forget now 16.1.1

        Allies? Trans people and their allies make up a fairly small part of the left; most people don't give much of a damn about us one way or another (Twitter may be different – I avoid it myself). Actually been talking about this with some of the cis women in my life, and they had an issue with Stand Up For Women claiming to represent them (even if you don't accept trans-women as women to have a voice in this conversation).

        Your ally is the National party's leader's press secretary! SUFW – is there a direct connection to the UK's organisation; Standing For Women BTW? (The merch looks similar) SUFW recycles lines honed in the cauldron of; USA Republican, & UK Conservative, imperial politics. To the point where Ani O’Brien refuses to participate in a; "national day of action" for abortion law reform, because it uses language inclusive of; trans men and (AFAB) NBs.


        • Psycho Milt

          I'm not a member of SUFW for obvious reasons, but there is a kind of connection between them and the UK GC groups, in that both were formed in response to attempts to introduce sex self-ID, something that's clearly in conflict with women's rights.

          O'Brien's refusal to participate in pomo attempts to render the word 'woman' meaningless has nothing to do with conservatism or imperialism and everything to with materialism. I believe it's the same with Stewart. Materialism is neither left nor right, but many leftists are materialists, including me.

          • Forget now

            Pomo? Native American tribe, or Spanish for doorhandle are what come up on google search (and p is a fair way from h on a qwerty keyboard).

            Anyway; better to take the topic of imperialism and colonialism in regard to Takatāpui to OM rather than get too far offtopic here.

    • Anker 16.2

      Hear hear Weka. I didn't realise about the harrasment Ani had suffered. Its all being shut down.

      I have never felt so afraid to voice my views, except anonnomsly on sites like the Standard. Even during the Springbox tour, no one tried to shut the other side up or told them they had to repeat the mantra, "sport and politics don't mix" and if you don't say that you are a bigot.

      I so value your voice Weka and the voice of other women on this site who raise what is really going on.

      • Mika 16.2.1

        I agree Anker.

        I am also anonymous because I can't afford to be harrassed out of my job by "the Twitter left" because of my feminist beliefs.

        I am a Marxist, with decades of left wing activism, yet I feel driven out of socialist activity by the viciousness with which gender identity theory activists attack women who speak about the reality of our lives as female people in a patriarchal capitalist society.

        Gender identity theory is an own goal for the left. It seems to consume and destroy every progressive movement it touches, and I can't see it acheiving anything other than the destruction of solidarity between left wing men and women. It is no surprise that some of the women driven out of left wing campaigns and political parties, will find a political home elsewhere.

        • Anker

          Good to get some solidarity with other women (or men) on the Standard. Mika

          • Mika

            Yes, it has been heartening to find a left forum where women (and some men) are talking openly about the problems with gender identity theory.

  17. Anker 17

    Just a thought Judith might be going for the aggrieved gun voting lobby who are worried their guns will be confiscated.

    • weka 17.1

      yes. And trumpian politics.

      Not many rural, gun owning folk will feel comfortable with the tweet though, so I think it's a dog whistle to the hard core ones.

      • Sabine 17.1.1

        Judith does what Judith does,

        But the comment from Rachel can not be separated from the comment who called women Grub. That in itself is hate speech and dehumanising.

        And i don't see one person on the 'prominent' left to state such.

        So the void will always be filled by those that are opportunists. And that is what Judith is, she is a classic turn coat who will be what ever she needs to be in order to stay on top of the pecking order. After all she too is 'grub'.

        • solkta

          My mum used to call me a grub.

          • Sacha

            Yet I'll bet you resisted the urge to publicly declare your intent to take her life in revenge.

          • Sabine

            And did she also tell you that she was 'uncomfortable ' around you and possibly did not want to work/live/ share a space with you cause 'grub'? Or did she say something like, oh you are the cutest little grub? Nuance, or is that not something you do?

          • Psycho Milt

            Did your mum call a group of women she hated 'grubs?' I'm picking she didn't, because naming groups of people you're hostile to as insect larvae is pretty obviously fucked up.

            • solkta

              I suspect you wouldn't look sideways if someone described a group of politicians involved in dirty politics as grubs.

              • Sabine

                I am certainly not to hold back when it comes to our esteemed suits but there is a certain space to were you go to when you call a group of people out as an insect/animal that generally is considered a pest and people try very hard to eradicate.

                I have however called both, John Key and Jacinda Ardern 'dear Leader' much to the upset of the left and the right.

              • What Sabine said.

                Along similar lines: my dad heard me listening to 'Piggies' by The Beatles upwards of 40 years ago and told me that calling people animals, insects etc is something for fascists or other variants of scumbag only. He made a good point.

                • Drowsy M. Kram

                  "I am the Walrus" – pitting men who have gender disphoria against (biological) women – will take some time to get my head around it. Anything on the horizon re gender dysphoric women vs (biological) men?

                  The Walrus and the Carpenter (selected verses)

                  The moon was shining sulkily,
                  Because she thought the sun
                  Had got no business to be there
                  After the day was done —
                  "It's very rude of him," she said,
                  "To come and spoil the fun."

                  If seven maids with seven mops
                  Swept it for half a year,
                  Do you suppose,
                  ' the Walrus said,
                  That they could get it clear?'
                  I doubt it,' said the Carpenter,
                  And shed a bitter tear.

                  But four young Oysters hurried up,
                  All eager for the treat:
                  Their coats were brushed, their faces washed,
                  Their shoes were clean and neat —
                  And this was odd, because, you know,
                  They hadn't any feet.

                  It seems a shame,' the Walrus said,
                  To play them such a trick,
                  After we've brought them out so far,
                  And made them trot so quick!
                  The Carpenter said nothing but
                  The butter's spread too thick!'

                  I weep for you,' the Walrus said:
                  I deeply sympathize.'
                  With sobs and tears he sorted out
                  Those of the largest size,
                  Holding his pocket-handkerchief
                  Before his streaming eyes.

                  O Oysters,' said the Carpenter,
                  You've had a pleasant run!
                  Shall we be trotting home again?'
                  But answer came there none —
                  And this was scarcely odd, because
                  They'd eaten every one.

  18. Collins wading into the debate and expressing support for Stewart is weird.

    I don't believe so. The vilification of non-conforming women by gender identity enthusiasts is pissing off people on the right as well as the left. Collins may be approaching this from a conservative angle, but she'll have widespread sympathy for it among non-Nat voters, especially among women.

  19. Robert Guyton 19

    The Right look for converts, the Left look for traitors, or something along those lines sighs

  20. I struggle to understand where Ani is at.

    I don't, and if you'd followed how she's been abused and victimised by gender enthusiasts for thought crimes like believing women have rights or that lesbians don't have cocks, you wouldn't either. If 'indifference' is all she feels for the people involved, she must have the patience of a saint.

  21. Incognito 21

    A moron shoots off their mouth and doesn’t like the consequences of their freedom of expression, goes for dog-moan, and it good old Pavlovian tradition other moaners join the chorus of howls of outrage in a futile free speech frenzy. Nobody has been deplatformed. Nobody has been cancelled. This got nothing to do with fucking free speech but everything with stupid morons blaming others, preferably the otorities, for their own idiocies [plural].

  22. lprent 22

    Personally I don't care what the conversation or the debate was originally about, or even who Rachel Stewart is.

    The quoted tweet section would be sufficient to me and the relevant laws to pull her gun licence. Somewhere else she said that … Ummmm here in 2019

    Rachel Stewart: Owning firearms a privilege not a right

    What I do know is this. I've held a firearms licence since my teens. Guns are a big part of a hunting/pest eradication in rural NZ life. I welcome new gun laws and more hoops to jump through. That is as it should be.

    To think otherwise is to think like many an American. And, trust me, we don't want to go down that particular rabbit hole. It is a privilege to own firearms, NOT a right. Otherwise, New Zealand, who are we?

    I completely agree with that.

    Clearly Rachel Stewart needs to go through the process of gaining a firearms license again because in her teens she clearly either didn't read the rules and laws about gun ownership or didn't understand them.

    You don't treat firearms as a joke. You don't make threats involving the use of firearms. You don't use firearms when your judgement is impaired by intoxication. You don't lynch people with or without firearms and you don't threaten to do so. You don't ever be irresponsible with firearms. It is just too damn dangerous.

    And you really shouldn't legally hold firearms if you do anything as stupid as that tweet.

    People who make threats like that are notorious for eventually thinking that it is ok to for their self-entitled self to do any of those things. Typically they are really sorry afterwards, but their victims don't get up and laugh about it if they're severely injured or dead.

    I also don’t like people like Rachel Stewart being such complete hypocrites in public. The variation between what she was saying about her responsible use of firearms in 2019 and what was in that tweet is flabbergasting.

    • Forget now 22.1

      You shouldn't use firearms when your judgement is impaired by intoxication.

      It's not that long since duck hunting season (actually still going, but I haven't heard much about it since it began in May) which is clear evidence that people do in fact regularly shoot guns while drunk in NZ.

      • lprent 22.1.1

        Probably. Irresponsible idiots from the acclimatisation societies who seem to think that using weapons is fun. The type of people who gave us paddocks of gorse (great for hedges!), possums and eroding watersheds (we can start a fur industry!), and dead or dying streams (trout fisheries).

        Most of my shooting has been either military or pest reduction on a farm. I have a jaundiced view on idiots who think that introducing foxes (as they did in aussie) or perch into our rivers would do anything to enhance a different ecosystem.

      • Incognito 22.1.2

        You shouldn’t do most things when your judgement is impaired by intoxication, e.g., driving, tweeting, e-mailing, frying, fornicating, or internalising a really complex situation in your head.

        • Andre

          Ahh, but some of life's most interesting and educational experiences come when you do something you wouldn't have done if you weren't intoxicated.

          That's the way it was for me, anyway.

          • Incognito

            One cannot overestimate the value of education and life experience, as they build character.

          • McFlock

            lol trouble is that about half of mine involved educational visits to hospital. And sober-me already knew it was a bloody stupid thing to do.

  23. Tracey 23

    Chris Finlayson? The guy who our judiciary found deliberately flouted OIA rules for political purposes but stayed on as our Attorney general? Who is no ally of females? Being told by him that you are off brand, is merely a white wealthy male hankering for the old days from 2002 onwards when being racist and sexists and homophobobic (I know he is gay) was business as usual. I bet he struggles with the idea of a woman as leader. The self righteousness with which he hisses about poor candidate choice as though the selection of Worth, Sabin etc all happened while he slept. With a colleague who so pandered to China that he described the Yuigur anihilation as 'vocational training' cos his leader is friends with the Chinese President and sure he kills people who he doesnt like, but he's always been nice to John. All these liberal progressives giddy with glee that Stewart had her gun removed, while advocating for a bunch of men to take precedence over women and girls… Looking for your actual deeds to stop the kind of appalling behaviour we have to endure from boys/men as outlined by CGHS survey. Not words, not hand wringing but actual deeds to change male behaviour that makes it so hard being a female. But yeah, go after the woman who was nasty and take her gun. Do the easy stuff Greg. I'm sure many will applaud you.

    [removed surname from user name as this was not the approved version]

  24. Pat 24

    If hyperbolic statements on social media are the measure of evidence required for 'conviction' of whatever then we all should take stock.

    • weka 24.1

      They’re not, in NZ, yet. We need caution here though.

      the rules around firearms licensing and ownership are different. Her licence has been suspended while police investigate. This is appropriate given her tweets, but because she is a threat but because we need a very low bar for removing permissions. This protects NZ from the kind of problematic gun culture other places have.

      I’m also mindful that the police were told about shit people were saying at the gun club the mosque murderer went on to train at, and police ignored the warning.

      You can’t own firearms and joke very publicly about using those firearms to harm someone.

      • weka 24.1.1

        Thing that concerns me is if the police are taking a view about RS’ political opinions in their suspension of her licence. That we should be worried about.

      • tracey 24.1.2

        Well said Weka- yet again, women are easy to make examples of it seems

      • Pat 24.1.3

        Like many on here , Rachel Stewart has a history of hyperbolic statements on a variety of topics…the Police should indeed look into her firearms licence, whether that requires (public) suspension while that occurs I would suggest not.

        There should be no comparison with the Mosque murderer but sadly too many will seek to draw that long bow.

        As indicated, trial by social media dosnt serve anybody well and the boot can (and will ) change foot.

        • weka

          I'm not comparing RS's tweet with the mosque murderer. I'm pointing out that the current social context is one where we're not that far after a mass murder where the police and state had ignored warning signs.

          • Pat

            And im saying that Rachel Stewarts social media musings are not , and cannot seriously be considered a 'warning sign' of anything and reason has been lost.

            • weka

              How would the police know if they were or weren't?

              • Pat

                History…as yourself noted they are being swayed by the perceived political climate…that makes for poor decision making.

    • tracey 24.2


  25. McFlock 25

    Interesting and somewhat poetic idea that JC's tweet might have been sent by an "emotional junior staffer".

    Stewart posted the police correspondence on twitter. Maybe firearms owners shouldn't repeatedly fantasise online about killing people ("you have also previously stated on Twitter that if you were going to kill someone, you would not warn them").

    Massive difference between calling someone "grubs" and going into detail about how you'd like to kill them, imo.

    The delay in service might have been because she didn't tell them about her change of address, a requirement under the Arms Act.

    • Sabine 25.1

      This guy has called women he don't like 'grub' on more on one occasion, and he was called out by Rachel Stewart in a way that was non threatening. So this tweet was not something that came out of the blue and a desire to kill, this tweet seems came out of place of 'fucking hell i am so over this shit'.

      Did she overdue it, yes – and she has her bills to pay, but then tell me, at what stage is a women allowed to actually get angry at the abuse hurled at her just for the audacity to have her own mind and her own understanding of what a women is/are and what her needs are. When? Or are we really to simply just bend over and they thank you and swallow that bullshit?

      • McFlock 25.1.1

        It wasn't just the one tweet that did it though, was it.

        If you want to keep your guns, don't repeatedly and publicly dream about killing people. And obey the bureaucratic requirements of the Arms Act 1963.

        • Sabine

          The point that i am trying to make is as such

          that long before she lashed out (stupidly so imo) she was harassed, threatened with explicit sexual violence (something that happens routinely to women on the net) etc.

          She did not wake up one day and tweet this tweet for the heck of it or because she don’t like transpeople.

          And that guy and his comments and those of many others on her tweets are dehumanising women.

          I have asked you that before so i ask again:
          How good will be your inclusion of trans women in the world of women be when you have to do a way with the women in the first place? Inclusion by exclusion? did that ever work?

          • McFlock

            Your question is based on a false condition.

            As to the specific example, if someone irks one online, then sure, an option is to retaliate and escalate out of frustration. But if that escalation amounts to murder fantasies, then one's firearms should be confiscated. This has nothing to do with gender debates, it's basic public safety: people who publicly fantacise about killing other people, no matter the provoction, should not own firearms.

            No idea if "grubs" commenter reached the same threshold, but then I don't know if they own firearms, either.

            • Sabine

              and again you are not answering.

              At what stage is a women entitled to lash out after constantly being harrassed, threatened with sexual violence and treated with dehumanizing language.

              And can you consider the fact that her tweet is not born out of transphobia but rather out of frustration, and that if we discuss the tweet as a result of that harrasment, threats etc we must also discuss those that incited the tweet as a response.

              If she had posted the tweet as a singular thing, i could understand your position. But stuff was said before….and that stuff was not nice, not friendly, not inclusive to natural born women.

              • McFlock

                Hey, I never said her hunting tweet was transphobic. It was specifically around one particular individual. It's probably quite seperate from her opinions about trans people (unless the target of her fantasy is trans? Even then, maybe not?).

                If that was the only time she'd mentioned killing people, you'd have more of a point. But even in that case the question would remain about whether firearms should be in the possession of people who lash out under stress.

                I'm not stopping anyone in particular from lashing out. Heck, I barely restrain myself from doing it, sometimes (although I don't own any firearms).

                But excuse me for a little bit of schadenfreude if some jerk faces the proper but unexpected consequences for being a jerk in some unexpected way.

                • Sabine

                  again, i am not condoning her tweet, in fact no one here is.

                  What i am however pointing out that us women live through a lot of abuse online, worse than that tweet to be honest. And again, that tweet is intimitaly related to trans issues, as the Man is calling gender critical women 'grub' and that is what she called him out on, as i said, her tweet does not stand alone, it was provoked. Incited even. 🙂 and the funny thing here is that we are not talking about that.

                  So , care to tell us what women are to do – politely say 'hush, you, that is sooo rude'? And how many times should we say t his before we loose it? Seriously?

                  Maybe the thing that women need to understand – biological women need to understand – is that they don't have allies. They never did.

                  • McFlock

                    Are you asking if there is some way someone can deal with publicly being called a grub (other than to publicly fantasise about stripping the person naked and hunting them)?

                    Let's have a think. Um: blocking? Reporting tweets for harrassment? Making harrassment complaints? Restraining orders? Going to the gym or for a long walk? Saying it to a good friend over a cup of tea rather than to 1200 twitter followers?

                    She didn't have her guns taken because she is a woman. She had her guns taken because her behaviour put into question her fitness as a firearms owner.

                    • weka

                      And if the post had just been about that, it might make sense to talk about just that. But it wasn’t, it was about three women and their bad behaviour. Some women here would like to talk about the wider political context, not just the logistics and boundaries of having a gun licence.

                      As for the alternatives you suggest, did you miss the bit where I pointed out it took UK feminist MPs requiring Twitter to appear before parliament and account for why they allowed so much violence against women in their platform. Women reporting to Twitter was ignored. Women organising as a feminist movement enabled the MP to also act. So maybe don’t tell feminists what our options are, eh? RS’s tweet was way over the line *and the context still remains.

                    • McFlock

                      I wasn't aware I had been asked a rhetorical question, rather than a genuine question.

                    • Sabine

                      no i am asking when enough of abuse is enough.

                      And please don't pretend now that women online are not tone moderated, threatened with sexual violence, rape until death or bodily harm, have their children threatend with sexual violence and death etc.

                      And for what its worth, i personally am of the opinion that every time this happens it should be called out. Loudly. But then some might consider that as moaning, bitter women being noisy, etc. Cause women are to be all things nice, and complaining ain't nice.

                      But you know all of that. Don't you? You just don't want to actually admit that this tweet did not happen on its own but was itself incited by hatred against biological women who advocate for biological women and their need for their own save spaces that are not defined by men, and by men who are identify as women.

                    • McFlock

                      How much of that did the "grub" commenter do? Enough for RS to keep her firearms, in your opinion?

                    • weka []

                      You mean should it be a mitigating factor in her getting her licence back?

                    • McFlock

                      Not just should she get them back: should her firearms have been confiscated at all?

                    • Sabine

                      No i dont' think she should get her weapons back without having to sit again a license and pass due diligence. As i said, i don't condone what she said. And again, no one here has condoned what she said.

                      But i would like to also have the person who incited her held to account on his idea that he identifies some women as 'grub' and others not.

                      And i also hope that the police will look at this matter from a standpoint of how much danger is she to the public. as she stated herself, she has no record of nothing other then maybe parking tickets. In her writings over the years she has never advocated violence, nor proposed it – that too should be considered.

                      And i would like to make it quite clear, that verbal violence directed at women who speak up for women should be shouted down by the so called "Allies" of women, in real life and online.

                      If women have any rights today it is due to women who have fought for their rights. Men have not ever given women rights, Men have for century withheld rights from women and it seems that men are now quite happy to remove some of these rights from women for men who identify as women.

                      And funnily enough it is again men who tone police women in their refusal to be all things nice, sugar and spice.

                    • McFlock

                      Then what the hell are we arguing about.

                    • Sabine

                      I don’t see myself arguing. Not at all, personally i think this has been one of the best discussion on this board in the longest of time.

                      The discussion essentially resolves around the tenet that women should simply aquiese to the intruduction of men identifying as women in womens spaces.

                      And i don't see anyone here discussing the tweets of the others that led to her particular bad taste tweet, but she she did not forcibly start this brouhaha, that she was egged on, pestered, harrased, called unplesant things and lost her patience for once.

                      Again, This tweet is not a stand alone tweet, it is the push back part of a whole book of abuse hurled at women rights activists – in this case a women named Rachel.

                      Her answer was in bad taste. She paid the price. But the reason as to how she got there needs to be discussed, cause it is getting tiresome how women are told to shut the fuck up and simply be ok with having men who identify as women in womens spaces.

                    • weka

                      what the hell are we arguing about?

                      This I think,

                      Massive difference between calling someone "grubs" and going into detail about how you'd like to kill them, imo.

                      There is a massive difference, but not as much as you think perhaps once the wider context is taken into account.

                      I understood that RS's licence had been suspended temporarily while they investigated. This seems appropriate given the hunting tweet and the one about not giving people notice if going to kill them. Both jokes, but not ones to make in public when talking about one's guns. There's a tempering process that gives signals to the public which seems important.

                      I'd like to know what the process is next though.

                    • McFlock

                      Yes, some politicians are indeed supporting a woman's tweet that provided grounds to temporarily remove her access to firearms.

                      She didn't lose her access to firearms because she is a woman who lost her patience. She lost her firearms because she is a firearms owner who lost her patience. That responsibility applies to all firearms owners, regardless of any other factor.

                      If some politicians think she should be an exception because she is an activist for rights for some/all women (obviously we differ on that description), then those politicians have a worrying attitude to gun control. But we probably knew that about them, anyway.

                      As for the basic gender critical / trans debate, as far as I can see it's largely become a rote-like restatement of mutually contradictory positions.

                      @weka: Fair point. If the grub commenter is also a firearms owner, they could do with being looked at by the local arms officer, as well.

                  • Incognito

                    Maybe the thing that women need to understand – biological women need to understand – is that they don't have allies. They never did.


                    • miravox


                      Hard to argue with this, Incognito. Maybe some general, idealised support, but when it comes to the crunch, females are on their own.

                    • weka

                      If I've learnt anything in the last five years, it's that left wing men's support for feminism is generally conditional on being aligned with men's politics.

            • weka

              Women: we’ve had years of sexualised violence directed at us on social media especially when we talk about our politics.

              Left wing men: how irksome but really the important thing is this other bit over here.

              • Sabine

                t'was ever thus.

              • McFlock

                Sure, "irks" was a poor choice of words. Fair call.

                But public murder fantasies expressed by a licensed firearms owner are a pretty bit "other bit", even if someone thinks it had to be seen in its context.

                Why should she keep her guns?

                • weka

                  I’d like to see how police assess this especially compared to other cases. Just because I like to know how things work, but also how much her politics are a factor.

                  I’m not convinced she should lose her licence permanently but I have no other cases to compare to. She broke other aspects too eg change of address.

                  • McFlock

                    According to the letter she posted online, the cops got a referral about one tweet. So they read her twitter history.

                    It might have been reasonable political discourse, but they read it as seeming to demonstrate a tendency to exhibit hatred against a community – their conclusion. I am not sure someone with that tendency would be a fit and proper person to have guns.

                    So she's got a month to write a submission as to why her twitter feed is reasonable political discourse rather than a demonstration of a tendency towards hatred directed at a specific group.

                    • Graeme

                      The attitudes and sentiments in RS's tweet are rather common with young rural people and some that think they are rural. When I read it I saw many people I know, predominately male, but a few women as well. Generally these fantasies stay as fantasies, but occasionally they are acted out, usually the victim sees it coming and gets out of there. There's also an awful lot of suicides by firearm in that group.

                      Hopefully Rachel Stewart will reflect and understand what she's turned up, and directs her dissertation into something that helps people who think like this understand that firearm ownership is a privilege that requires calm maturity, along with life in general. I think the New Zealand Police will be more than co-operative, along with most of the more measured rural leaders.

                    • weka

                      Is 'reasonable political discourse' your wording McFlock, or something you've seen officially?

                      I don't think it's reasonable political discourse. It certainly would have gotten her a ban on TS. But I think it is unlikely she is a physical threat to trans people and allies. Unacceptability of the tweets is one thing, what interests me is if the gun licence would be withheld on the basis of her politics if she is deemed no physical threat. Am mindful of what Lynn said about people escalating over time, so there is the issue of what she might do in the future even if she's not a risk currently.

                      The argument was made on twitter that it's not her politics that are the issue but her behaviour. I haven't seen the tweets the police looked at, but I do remember seeing the one about how if she was going to kill someone there’d be no notice. Again, I don’t think she is a danger, but she obviously has poor judgement about what to say in public and that tweet and the hunting down one came across with menace that she seems unaware of (or doesn’t care about).

                      Meanwhile, this popped up on my TL this morning.

                      This is actual incitement to hatred and is the example I’ve been asking for all week by which we can judge the proposed hate law changes in NZ. Freedman is a UK law professor and is being targeted for her political views (GCF), but imo and the opinion of many women, she is also being targeted because she is a woman. Women in this debate get far worse attacks than men. It’s misogyny. Women who work in UK universities have to have security now. Not theoretical, will Stewart actually harm trans people, but hate escalated to the point of constant vigilance.

                      Thing is though, in NZ, would this be recognised given so many people, including in the government and on the left, believe that GCF are evil terfs, and that if you get cancelled you must deserve it? Freedman is the exemplar of GCF most likely to work on sex/genders issues collaboratively so that trans people and women get their rights upheld and respected. She’s not at the RS, dismissive, negating and rude about trans people end of the spectrum, and not even close to active transphobes who want trans people harmed or disappeared. So why is she being attacked?

                      This by the way should be a post, a follow up from mickey’s. Do you understand why it’s not?

                    • weka

                      @ Graeme, this is why I think she is dismissive of concerns about the tweet (country girl stuff). I do hope she has people close to her that can give her good advice about how to turn this around.

                    • McFlock

                      Reasonable political discourse was my term for something other than demonstrating a tendency towards hatred for a group of people.

                      Laurel Hubbard seems to be an olympic athlete without a twitter account. I wonder why that might be.

                    • weka

                      Reasonable political discourse was my term for something other than demonstrating a tendency towards hatred for a group of people.

                      Yes, the issue remains whether RS' tweeting history (and articles) count as demonstrating hatred for a group of people

                      Laurel Hubbard seems to be an olympic athlete without a twitter account. I wonder why that might be.

                      Would you mind explaining what your point is there? (presumably it was in response to what I said about Rosa Freedman and not writing about it on TS).

                    • McFlock


                      it was an agreement that women are harrassed online in some pretty vile ways.

                  • Rosemary McDonald

                    Re; your twitter post this morning from Rosa Freeman.

                    I followed the reply from Dennis Noel Kavanagh who in turn was responding to statements made by MP Mhairi Black (remember her?).

                    I’ve watched Mhairi Black MP tonight contribute the pride debate with mounting ennui and despair. Her analysis of the gender war is simply this: a vast right wing army have drawn their forces against reason and righteousness and seduced fools to their cause.

                    I get this, though I don't think it is a simple as what we think counts as left/right.

                    • weka

                      Am sorely disappointed in Black. The inability to even listen blows my mind. In the UK more than anywhere else is is blatantly obvious that there is a whole grass roots movement being run by left wing women around women's rights in sex/gender. That Black characterises this as right wing or calls them fools is a kind of blindness that I really struggle to understand.

                  • Sabine

                    this thread

                    • Incognito

                      Wrong country

                    • weka

                      yes, that. Let's not hold our breath waiting for leftist men to condemn or god forbid take action. Witches deserve their ducking.

                    • Sabine

                      As Incognito said, that thread indeed is from a 'different' country, from the very different to us- a country called “UK”.
                      However it is in regards to the same issue, and that some weaponised words are more important then other weaponised words.

                      Namely that sexual violence directed at women (and girls) is so normalised that the police don't even go into action even if there is ample evidence of 'weaponised speach'.

                      Same as the Police in NZ tried to stop some girls and other youth in Christchurch from protesting against sexual violence directed at them to the point were a subsequent review revealed that over 60% of the school girls have lived – some daily – with sexual violence in the very least verbal violence to assault, alleged rape and gang rape.

                      But then, let me again state how important it is that the Tweet that i linked to is NOT NZ but is in so many ways.

                      I repeat my question to you Incognito: Do you think that rape should be a hate crime?

                    • Incognito []

                      I don’t answer quizzes from people who don’t engage in genuine debate and/or avoid/refuse answering questions themselves (https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-03-07-2021/#comment-1801511) and only want to regurgitate their own pet topics.

                      Have a nice day.

                    • weka

                      or terrorism.

                    • Sabine

                      yes, domestic terrorism. indeed. Thanks for pointing it out.

                    • Sabine

                      Sometimes one says more by just being politely condescending.

  26. ianmac 26

    (Judith Collin's quoted stance has this origin:)

    Upon this a question arises:

    whether it is better to be loved or feared, feared than loved. One should wish to be both but, because it is difficult to unite them in one person, it is much safer to be feared than loved.

    Niccol Machiavelli.

  27. weka 27

    btw, if you're still trying to understand what is going on politically (eg why someone on the left ends up working for Judith Collins), I can say that there are increasing numbers of politicised left wing women who have ended up politically homeless over women's rights, especially lesbians who are bearing the brunt of 'sexual orientation and genital preferences are transphobic' rhetoric. The left has long misunderstood how Māori have their own politics independent of left/right. Women do too. The Labour Party in the UK is now split along GCF/TA lines, women leaving the party and/or refusing to vote for them. The left can try and write that off as transphobia, but the point is being missed majorly.

  28. Sabine 28


    No one can be watching the Free Speech vs Hate Speech culture war and not be scared shitless by the most recent woke lynching of Rachel Stewart.

    Award winning Herald columnist, avid falconer, hunter, climate crisis activist, well known lesbian, staunchly feminist, firearms safety advocate, policy researcher, then treasurer, then president of the Whanganui chapter of Federated Farmers – THAT Rachel Stewart had the cops bust into her house and seize her guns because of this supposed threat to kill some white male who was lecturing her on feminism…

    Fwiw, i do agree with him.

    • Incognito 28.1

      When you use words as weapons about weapons chances are that they’ll remove your weapons.

      • Sabine 28.1.1

        i don't disagree with you.

        . Not sure if you have read that far.

        Note the police did not look into Award winning Herald columnist, avid falconer, hunter, climate crisis activist, well known lesbian, staunchly feminist, firearms safety advocate, policy researcher, then treasurer, then president of the Whanganui chapter of Federated Farmers Rachel Stewart’s background and

        see that this was a malicious complaint, nor did they err on the side of caution and send over an older wiser Police Officer to ascertain Rachel’s threat level,

        oh no, the Police chose to defame Rachel by claiming she was a physical danger to the transsexual community and seize her guns.

        And maybe if you are so worried about words as weapon, please lay a complaint with the police about the dude that called Women like her and those that think like her 'grub' as that too is a dehumanizing term.

        The point is, that this is not a woman who has ever advocated for anything else but fairness, and I would like to remember you that many here were busy hailing her and cheering her on when she parsed her weaponised words against John Key, Nick Smith etc.

        I agree with Bomber that the Police has had a choice how to handle this – and again, no one disputes that her tweet was ill tempered and over the top – and the police choose to over police.

        You know a bit like under Helen Clark and the new terrorism laws that came about in 2006 – 2007 and then suddenly the Te Uruwera Raids. Just another case were the Police was 'used' to make a point.

        Personally i shall have a bucket of popcorn ready, as I don't believe that Rachel Steward will let that go by, and in the end it could make the Police and the Government look very very bad. And that all without Judith Collins having to do anything at all.

        Popcorn, Incognito, get a big bucket. Question, do you think rape should be listed as on that list of hate crimes?

        (bolded by me)

  29. Mika 29

    I've read the entire comments thread above, and one thing has struck me: there is a well defined sex-based split amongst the commenters. Women commenters are talking about the political environment we exist within where gender theory is lauded and the resultant hostility to the interests of women and girls, and the male commenters are poo-pooing our concerns.*

    As Sabine said above:

    Maybe the thing that women need to understand – biological women need to understand – is that they don't have allies. They never did.

    I'd ask the men on this site if they ever have any ambition to be allies to their female comrades?

    *the exception of Milt Psych is noted. Thanks for your solidarity, comrade.

  30. Anker 30

    Brilliant Sabine.

    Muttonbird, I most often like your contributions.

    But I think many have been asleep at the wheel with what is happening with gender ideology. Particulary men because they are not effected so much and they want to be good progressive people and support transgender rights. (which I do too).

    But take a look at Wekas posts where you get to see the comments being made about "terfs". There is a disgraceful shut down of women going on.

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