Open mike 03/07/2021

95 comments on “Open mike 03/07/2021 ”

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1. Sabine 1

   3 July 2021 at 7:00 am

   i beg you to read this, share a tear for the girls involved, their resignation to the fact that sexual harrasment and rape, and gang rape is boys being boys, and then maybe write a letter to ask the "lawmakers' of this fair land to make

   sexual harrasment, rape, gang rape (fucking gang rape in a school)

   A fucking HATE CRIME!

   maybe someone who has better vocabulary then I, who can write about such things in nice and polite ways so as to not offed, can do a post about this. About how a whole generation of girls in a School in NZ admitted to being dehumanized , traumatised, physically assaulted and rendered to nothing more then a sexual object by their male peers.

   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/christchurch-girls-high-school-sexual-harassment-survey-rape-claims-parents-react/PVKAA5VZSUHRJGAKNCJYVVTLIM/
   • gsays 1.1

     3 July 2021 at 9:02 am

     The sexual harassment survey is a confronting read.

     I don't think we can legislate our way to a solution.

     Why are our boys and men behaving in such demeaning ways? While schools are going to be part of the answer, surely the family environment and wider society is where solutions need to be implemented.

     Decent males around young men – dads, brothers,uncles, sports coaches, teachers, community/church leaders.

     A boisterous energy common in males needs to be channeled in healthy directions.

     Many moons ago, at a primary school cross country, a group of younger boys who had done their run were goofing around jumping/throwing themselves over a rope tied between two electric fence 'pigtail' standards. A mum told them to stop it. They did for about 90 seconds then started up again. They were told to stop it again told someone might get hurt. I volunteered to supervise said hi-jinks to appease the concerns.

     Later at prize giving, there were categories for fastest boy and girl in the different year groupings. I asked the principal if this was to be repeated at the academic side of things at the end of the year. I was told it would be looked into. They didn't.

     I feel boys can grow up not feeling valued, that what often drives them is wrong or naughty. That drive needs to be channeled to manifest in a healthy way. If you grow up not having regard or love for oneself, you can hardly be expected to have regard for others.

     Celia Lashlie said all of this so much better than me and the message is far more palatable when a woman says it.

     https://www.rnz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=2522572

     A worthwhile 18 minutes.
     • Foreign waka 1.1.1

       3 July 2021 at 11:52 am

       One of the oldest cultures on this planet hasn't come far:

       https://edition.cnn.com/2018/01/30/health/india-unwanted-girls-intl/index.html

       They are not alone:

       https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/11/a-wave-of-women-fighting-rape-across-europe/

       https://scholarworks.calstate.edu/downloads/4f16c375j

       https://voxatl.org/rape-culture-americas-biggest-plague/

       https://www.theguardian.com/society/2011/jul/17/the-rape-of-men

       Worldwide, children, women and man are being subjected to unspeakable acts of violence. Rape and all related abuses are acts of violence. Perpetrated to humiliate the "other" and show superiority. It is an act of abuse of power over others, sadistic in its core a human failure in their upbringing and understanding of respect and honor. This is an issue as old as humanity and the only way, as I see it, is to change this is by changing the upbringing of children. Women are mothers and mothers are the major influence when raising children up to the time they join day care and school, military etc. depending on culture and location. What is changing at that juncture?

       I have experienced children growing up with parents of all walks of life so to speak and found it is not poverty or even neglect due to working 2 jobs etc. but drink, drugs, the culture of "proving" a boy has to "become" a man. Suppression of wishes, feelings and mental illness do come into play. Solders have acute issues because of repression when they have witnessed atrocities. The list is long but essentially, we as a human race have to find a way to overcome this animalistic instinct and need of exercising power over others. I know, its wishful thinking and most likely never going to happen.
     • Pete 1.1.2

       3 July 2021 at 1:32 pm

       Why are our boys and men behaving in such demeaning ways? Why do we have a massive drug problem? Why do we have to have props like alcohol and drugs to get us through life? Why do there have to be drug checks outside concerts where young people are apparently going to have a good time with music?

       Why do we have so many mental health problems? Why almost every day do we hear or see in the media of someone suffering from depression?

       What changes are in there in us from 1821, 1921 till 2021? Is it that the better off and more 'advanced' we are, the less stable we have become?
       • Descendant Of Smith 1.1.2.1

         3 July 2021 at 3:29 pm

         Men and boys have behaved like this in New Zealand for a long time. For most of New Zealand's history it was legal to both beat and rape your wife.

         It was only in the late 1800's early 1900's that a conflation between puritanical evangelists and feminists started to result in questioning male rights to wife-beating, conjugal rights and marital rape.

         Adulterous wives were able to be divorced simply because they created the possibility of the husband's estate being passed on at death to someone else's son. The impact of that thinking for instance meant that all benefits were paid to the male until the mid-1980's. There are lots of stories about women trying to feed their families solely on family benefit payments.

         Marital rape was possible because in getting married a woman gave herself up to her husband. It was seen that marital sex was part of the contract that she had entered into and that you could not deny your husband that part of the contract.

         These attitudes persisted well into the 60's and 70's with the normalised thinking evident even when looking for alternative lifestyles such as James K Baxtter's commune at Jerusalem.

         https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/111980198/ros-lewis-was-sexually-assaulted-by-james-k-baxter-at-jerusalem-she-wasnt-the-only-one

         Those attitudes persist today. I've heard many horrific stories from my grandparents and parents generations about what they had to endure – many over 40-50 years of marriage. Closer to home I remember one of my uncles getting his son aged about four to go and tell "mummy to get on her back cause daddy wants a fuck" – I was seven or eight when this was going on and even then was horrified but not surprised. You grew up hearing similar stuff all around you.

         Marital rape only became a crime in 1985.

         As well as property rights the "boys will be boys" notion was a well established notion.

         It is a matter entirely clear in the physiology which governs nature that adultery in the male is a crime to which the male really is very much more accessible than the female from the force of nature. That is a physiological law, and you cannot upset it. And the reason of the law is quite simple. It is because man is inherently selfish, and nature has put so violent a passion in him in order that he may increase and multiply the people on the earth. In so far, his culpability is lessened. In the eye of legislation of reasonable beings the same onus is not to be laid upon the male as upon the female for committing adultery. Nature cannot be shoved aside and slurred over and overridden … "

         Morgan Stanislaus Grace 1896 during debate on divorce laws.

         The notion that men had aggressive sexual urges and women were passive was seen as a simple truism.

         Some urges were however problematic. Given the prevalent attitudes towards masturbation in NZ that were still in vogue when I went to high school in the 70's – I struggle to see how even that recently that New Zealand had normal healthy attitudes.

         "Ailments believed to be associated with masturbation included epilepsy, blindness, headache, impotency, loss of memory, general loss of health and strength, 'nervous debility' and ultimately insanity and death."

         A whole industry developed around how to stop these urges – often moving into the blackmail of those who then purchased the products.

         I think it is weird how people promote this notion of things are getting worse and OMG how did things get so bad? It has been forever bad in New Zealand and we reap the legacy of that today. I think at times we confuse the willingness to be more open about these issues and to talk about them with it is getting worse. There is still a long way to go today but we should recognise that these issues are deeply rooted in our history and will take generations to resolve.
     • Sabine 1.1.3

       3 July 2021 at 6:39 pm

       Why are our boys and men behaving in such demeaning ways? While schools are going to be part of the answer, surely the family environment and wider society is where solutions need to be implemented.

       Decent males around young men – dads, brothers,uncles, sports coaches, teachers, community/church leaders.

       • a coach in the US abused (digitally abused) hundreds of young gymnasts. Simone Biles is one of them.
       • i was raped by my stepfather
       • many a joke have been made about familys creepy uncle, grand dad, just recently a 12 year old foster girl who was killed by her foster father 'had sex' with her 'foster brother'.
       • the roman catholic church, Josh Duggar (Reality TV) from a fundamentalists evangelic quiverfull cult was just arrested or having Child abuse porn on his digital devices, one which depicted teh rape of an 18 month old girl by a guy from OZ who sits there in prison now.
       • teachers? how many scandals involving teachers and children just are there in nz?

       No, we can ONLY legislate us out of there.

       The issue is only coming to the forefront because the girls wanted to demonstrate against hte boys school and were prevented by Police and their school.

       https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/124657314/students-protesting-sexual-harassment-turned-back-from-boys-school-by-police

       February three girls laid complaints

       https://theworldnews.net/nz-news/christchurch-girls-39-high-school-students-report-allegations-of-sexual-offences-to-police

       this post from the Dr. that ran that review

       https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2021/06/29/exclusive-dr-liz-gordon-sexual-harassment-silence-and-power/

       The thing is these girls know the guys who assaulted them, they are their peers, mates of their brothers, trusted boyfriends, and so on. They are not strangers. They are their community.

       These guys knew full well what they did, and they probably expected to get away with is, as it is just rape.

       And i bet you a dollar, it is not a huge of group of boys, its just the predators of the next generation.
       • gsays 1.1.3.1

         3 July 2021 at 8:09 pm

         Ok, all men are bastards. I've got the message loud and clear.

         Just draft the legislation, problem solved.
         • Sabine 1.1.3.1.1

           3 July 2021 at 8:21 pm

           No, not all man are bastards.

           All rapists are bastards. But sadly they don't come with a warning.

           as i have said here

           And i bet you a dollar, it is not a huge of group of boys, its just the predators of the next generation.

           They are predators. And we should see them for what they are. Women rape too, boys get raped. Old women, babies. By predators. So you can only legislate and then enforce it with meaningful sentencing.
           • Incognito 1.1.3.1.1.1

             3 July 2021 at 8:50 pm

             In your opinion, what does “meaningful sentencing” mean? Lock them up and throw away the key? Give them a right bollocking and a long sentence and let them lose again? Or perhaps something more constructive and healing? What do you have in mind?

             And how do you suggest we go about prevention of undetectable predators striking their victims? Train cops to mind-read like in Minority Report and execute preventative arrests with laws allowing preventative sentencing?

             BTW, not all sex offenders are predators, IMO. That’s way too simplistic. Have you looked into this hugely complex topic at all? Many sex offences involve alcohol and drug use and are between acquaintances, i.e. they are or a more opportunistic than pre-meditated nature. Perhaps you can elaborate on your definition of “predator”.
             • Sabine …

               3 July 2021 at 9:19 pm

               Did you see the case that i linked in regards to Wekas comment re the Judiciary?

               The Navy guy that got a two year sentence for sexually assaulting three team mates.

               Do you think that is a reasonable sentence?

               The Roastbusters?

               The guy in the south island that raped teh 5 year old tourist who needed reconstructive surgery is doing very well outside jail now, i wonder how that girl does.

               https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/120234535/trangi-child-rapist-doing-very-well-in-life-outside-of-jail

               How much time do you think should someone get for organizing a "train" on his girlfriend?

               At least i want them to serve their full sentence. At the very least. Because the harm they do is for life.
               • Incognito …

                 3 July 2021 at 9:26 pm

                 At least i want them to serve their full sentence. At the very least. Because the harm they do is for life.[my italics]

                 Thank you for your answer.
         • Descendant Of Smith 1.1.3.1.2

           4 July 2021 at 12:22 am

           "Ok, all men are bastards. I've got the message loud and clear."

           Pffft you haven't got the message at all.

           Violence is deep seated in NZ culture and violence to women is a substantial part of that. Many men are violent. Many men are not.

           Alcohol just lowers inhibitions – men who are happy when drinking alcohol become happier, men who are violent when drinking alcohol oft enact that violence.

           In the past this stuff was barely talked about. I know my wife was raped when she was a teen – she has never, ever told her family and never will. It wasn't the done thing to tell people. You just put up with it.

           Growing up if one of the men in the street got too heavy handed with his wife the other men in the street would get together and give him a hiding and tell him to ease off – not to stop mind you – just to have a bit more self-control. Violence begats violence begats violence.

           That it is now talked about is a positive change. More men/boys will get the message that it isn't OK.

           As Auden put it so eloquently

           “I and the public know
           What all schoolchildren learn,
           Those to whom evil is done
           Do evil in return.”
           • gsays 1.1.3.1.2.1

             4 July 2021 at 5:51 pm

             I was looking to unpack why some boys and men can be violent, why women can inordinately be the victims of that violence, why that violence, too often, manifests in a sexual context.

             Males must be part of the solution.

             That means gym coaches, teachers and church men that don't rape.

             Legislation as a deterrent is only messing about at the bottom of the family harm cliff.

             I couldn't agree more, violence begets violence. The bully is the first victim.
             • Descendant Of Smith …

               5 July 2021 at 9:48 am

               "I was looking to unpack why some boys and men can be violent"

               Learned behaviour.
             • Sabine …

               5 July 2021 at 10:00 am

               It is Societal and institutionally accepted behavior

               Most of the laws that we still apply to these crimes were written often at a time where men made the rules, about just what was and was not an acceptable level of violence directed at women by men. The ownership principle comes to mind, to be given from the father to the husband. Chattel.

               This is not to villify men, i firmly believe that the predators are a small minority and that men by and large are not violent. But they do not speak up when they should. And i think often they are too frightened by the violence coming from men.

               Sometimes the bully is just someone who gets away with it. Not all sexual predators are victims. Some just like to hurt people. Some might be opportunists. Some might have been violated themselves.

               But all get better treatment in prison then the victim gets outside. We will go to length to find out what turned men/women into this predator behavior to stop them from doing it again in the future, in the meantime the victim is told to suck it up by ACC when asking for help, maybe even appeal if a request for counseling or further counceling is denied.

               It is accepted behavior on an institutional level. The first instinct of the police was to cancel the protest march of these girls – so even when they try to do something, they just get cancelled by those that should keep them safe.
       • RedbaronCV 1.1.3.2

         3 July 2021 at 10:43 pm

         I read the stuff story about the police turning back the girls protest. Must have missed it at the time. I found it didn't leave a good taste – feeling that it delivered a very authoritarian message to the female protest. along the lines "you are only allowed to protest in some way or form that suits the powers in charge" and "us authority figures have got the boys back's here".

         The cop excuses didn't sit well either. Putting aside truancy there is a right to peaceful protest that should be respected and citing "potential traffic problems" rather than a caused harm just doesn't cut it. But yeah I guess the girls got the message of "your needs don't matter" about even having a say.
         • Sabine 1.1.3.2.1

           4 July 2021 at 10:35 am

           The sign of one of the girls

           "my assaulter got a second chance". She did not. And the police is worried about truancy. Priorities.
   • Treetop 1.2

     3 July 2021 at 10:44 am

     There needs to be specialised police units like the AOS to clean up and investigate sexual harassment and sexual assault.

     The current system is not working.
     • weka 1.2.1

       3 July 2021 at 10:49 am

       Judiciary too apparently.

       https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/125633069/not-convicting-man-who-recording-woman-in-change-room-neglects-true-harm-caused

       A judge who let a man making a covert recording in a changing room off the hook – saying women are “probably more sensitive” than men about being filmed without their knowledge – is not fit to preside over sexual assault trials, a leading victims’ advocate says.
       • weka 1.2.1.1

         3 July 2021 at 10:50 am

         to be fair, the full sentence from the judge was,

         “[W]omen are probably more sensitive about that than men are, and that is something any mature male should appreciate,” he said.

         Nevertheless, he misses women's perspectives multiple times. This is classic institutional sexism.
       • Treetop 1.2.1.2

         3 July 2021 at 4:53 pm

         In the case you mentioned police did their job and judiciary did not.

         The judiciary needs to be cleaned up as well.

         This applies to historical cases for both the police and judicary as well. Innocent children were not believed or they could not do anything due to not realising that a criminal offence had taken place.
       • Sabine 1.2.1.3

         3 July 2021 at 7:04 pm

         A Navy sailor who sexually assaulted three of his shipmates while on duty in Canada has been sentenced to two years’ military detention.

         The 27-year-old sailor, who has interim name suppression, was convicted for sexually violating and indecently assaulting three of his female colleagues at a court martial held at Devonport Naval Base on Auckland’s North Shore this week.

         why would anyone really worry about consequences, when these are the consequences?

         Just read whole article and then try to figure out how they came up with two years for three different sexual assaults on team mates.

         Boys will be boys vs Team mates 1 – 0

         https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/300348799/navy-sailor-sentenced-to-two-years-of-military-detention-for-sexual-assaults

         In essence, we MUST legislate us out of this.
   • KSaysHi 1.3

     3 July 2021 at 10:53 am

     I found this quote very telling

     "Busing home today," she says, "I was still cautious – men were still sitting next to me – like what they were saying to their friends, what they were doing, how they were acting – I made sure they didn't get off at the same bus stop as me because if they followed me I don't know what I would do."

     She once called her dad and asked him to meet her at a bus stop.

     Instead of taking the quickest bus home she now catches an alternate route and travels via the bus exchange that takes an hour longer.

     "It takes an hour and a half to get from school to home."

     It would normally take half an hour.

     "It's for their own self-protection, because of the kind of intimidation on the bus was so uncomfortable," her mother says.

     It is assumed throughout the article that the girls surveyed were telling the truth and I guess some would argue that just because 20 girls say they have been raped, nobody has been convicted and they would probably ask why those alledged crimes weren't reported earlier. This quote to be reinforces that there is a major issue regardless of the police not being involved and it brings home the overall vibe that young women are getting via their gut ….that it isn't safe to be a young woman on her own when there is nobody around to protect you.
     • Sabine 1.3.1

       3 July 2021 at 6:05 pm

       Yep, the girl learned it well. She like so many women will never leave the house again without making sure that she is able to 'protect herself' from the boys and men in her community, because she has learned that the boys and men in her community are predators and she is pray!

       Women 0

       Rapeculture 1
       • Sabine 1.3.1.1

         3 July 2021 at 6:20 pm

         prey.

         phonetic writing. 🙂
2. Anker 2

   3 July 2021 at 9:26 am

   • I am no expert in this, but my hunch is on-line porn has a lot to do with this, especially the brutal stuff. Boys can access it, see women being objectified and treated with cruelty.
   • not that I think this is necessary relevant, but books such as 50 shades of grey and the film. I never read it, but read feminist critiques of it, that point out it was about a controlling man who engaged in B and D with a young woman. It was a very popular book and normalised men controlling women and engaging in that sort of sex. Personally I find it terrifying rather than erotic on any level.
   • so sex where women are brutalised has become normalised.
   • I phones haven’t helped with sexting etc not only happening frequently, but being expected
   • I feel tremendously sorry for young women today. No wonder there are so many kids with mental health problems

   And I don’t think it’s a healthy world for boys either.
   • Cricklewood 2.1

     3 July 2021 at 10:31 am

     Nah similar shit went on 20+ years ago… take a group of young men add alcohol and this shit is inevitable.

     Very hard to fix its a societal problem, our booze culture isnt helping.
     • KSaysHi 2.1.1

       3 July 2021 at 10:36 am

       None of that was filmed, released globally and then never prosecuted because the police can't prove intent to harm.

       Strangulation during sex wasn't common until recently (read an article somewhere…sorry can't recall where).
       • weka 2.1.1.1

         3 July 2021 at 10:44 am

         Yep. Listening to women who have partners who are addicted to internet porn is a real eye opener.
     • weka 2.1.2

       3 July 2021 at 10:43 am

       difference is, we've had twenty years of addressing rape culture. This should have been more successful than it is. Online porn is a massive issue in terms of what it is teaching young men and women about sex and not teaching about consent and boundaries. Porn isn't the only factor, but it's a core one. Sex positivity, overall a positive social movement, has dropped the ball too. As with the sexual revolution in the 60s which affirmed male sexuality but ignored women, sex positivity has been coopted by neoliberalism and again women's needs are ignored. This isn't an argument for returning to the 1950s, it's pointing out that we're making progressive liberal gains but losing class ones, and we're just not very honest about it.
       • millsy 2.1.2.1

         3 July 2021 at 1:08 pm

         Rape culture was around way before the sexual revolution.

         [G’day millsy, you have a Moderation note still waiting for a response from you here: https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-28-06-2021/#comment-1800423.

         You may want to stick to your usual e-mail address if you want to go forward and I’ve changed it this time – Incognito]
         • Incognito 2.1.2.1.1

           3 July 2021 at 1:17 pm

           See my Moderation note @ 1:08 pm.
         • weka 2.1.2.1.2

           3 July 2021 at 1:33 pm

           Yes it was Millsy we just weren’t allowed to talk about it. Eg use of the term rape culture is relatively recent and it enabled feminists in particular to name problems and solutions to the extent the term and concept is used in msm and understood in public. This should have been more successful than it has been. Other forces in the culture work against that.
     • Anker 2.1.3

       3 July 2021 at 12:23 pm

       Agree 100 %about the alcohol.
     • Anne 2.1.4

       3 July 2021 at 4:03 pm

       … take a group of young men add alcohol and this shit is inevitable.

       Glad someone has mentioned it.

       40 plus years ago the law said it was illegal for anyone under 20 years to buy alcohol. That meant in practice if you were 18 years you could get away with buying alcohol.

       20 plus years ago (or thereabouts) the law said it was illegal for anyone under 18 years to buy alcohol. That means in practice if you are 16 years you can get away with buying alcohol.

       And therein lies a large part of the problem and most of us saw it coming 20 plus years ago but – as always – we were ignored.
       • Sabine 2.1.4.1

         3 July 2021 at 6:53 pm

         these children are high schoolers and are below the legal age.

         You can put the age limit to 40 and people will still rape. With or without alcohol.

         It is so easy for predators to hide behind societal excuse of 'I was drunk'. Heck all a predator has to do is drink and then go out on the prowl.

         Blame the booze Not the drinker.

         Rapeculture 1
         Vicitms 0
   • KSaysHi 2.2

     3 July 2021 at 10:34 am

     All true. I worry about the world that is being created with the level of violence in porn.
   • Sabine 2.3

     3 July 2021 at 6:16 pm

     The Rape of the Sabines comes to mind.

     Essentially part of the creation myth of Rome.

     The boys, Romulus and Remus on the other side of river had no girls, got bored and decided to cross the river and get some girls from a tribe called the Sabines.

     The called their mate, told em : Mate, its a good day for some lootn, pillaging, n'rapin, you game? And the mates went : Yeah, nah, Yeah!

     And so they went and killed all the men and stole all the girls and made them theirs.

     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rape_of_the_Sabine_Women#:~:text=The%20Rape%20of%20the%20Sabine%20Women%20(Latin%3A%20Sabinae%20raptae),other%20cities%20in%20the%20region.

     for the life of me i could never understand why anyone would name their daughter Sabine.

     What i am trying to say is that sometimes teh booze comes after making the decision to raping. For courage, nshit.

     Porn has been around since ever, in Pompei, paintings of erected Phallus was a good omen/fertility sign and affixed above doors.

     Sex were women are brutalised is norm, always was norm, until the 80's in many countries in the western world a women could not say no to her husband.

     Women 0

     Rapeculture 1

     We must stop to make excuses for these shits. If Rachel Steward can loose her guns for a 'word crime' cause 'hate crime' then the Men / boys (and also women but not in this particular case ) who rape, assault, harass, sexually batter others (yes, men boys too get raped) should be charged fully, and sentenced. And that is were we Fail, collectively as a society. We actually put the rapists wellbeing above that of his victim.

     Roastbusters come to mind.

     The cops did not even charge these Shits for 'supplying alcohol to a minor'. Nothing. They got away. “Charges are still being laid” (lol), yet after all these years they are still out there living their life.

     https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/roast-busters-new-charges-to-be-presented-after-another-complainant-comes-forward/T5RDUH2RLJTVSWDNUAZSHNTXUQ/

     Cause at the end, OUR society does not give a fuck.

     The girls got a life sentence and considering the state of mental health and access to treatment, they are on their fucking own with their issues resulting from rape.

     Roastbusters/Rapeculture 1

     Women/Girls/Victims 0
3. Incognito 3

   3 July 2021 at 11:24 am

   I find it sad that these battles tend to be fought with arguments about economic costs and negative impacts on health before people’s personal self-worth (in the broadest sense) comes into it. It can be soul-destroying to be overlooked, ignored, denied, marginalised, or even mocked and ridiculed. A one-off is not nice but when it is reoccurring and becomes a pattern, at least a perceived one in one’s mind, it changes expectations and behaviour into a somewhat self-fulfilling paranoia. This not only costs the victim dollars and may shorten their life expectancy; it also definitely leads to loss of quality of life. It sucks!

   https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-03/racism-costing-the-australian-economy-billions/100252786
   • greywarshark 3.1

     3 July 2021 at 3:31 pm

     Absolutely incognito.
     • greywarshark 3.1.1

       3 July 2021 at 3:48 pm

       Respect between parents and children with little talks about why it is important, and some sorrys from the two ages, is a good start. Then extend that to having self-respect so that it is hard to find a weak spot for a bully – when someone calls you 'Fatty' or some other descriptive term, if you just acknowledge that and go on, it takes the punch out of it. Some handy rejoinders that mock the bullyer will save a lot of angst too.

       Instead of weak unhappy people trying to pull someone down to their level, if bullyers have to go through a workshop of setting future goals and identifying their own strengths, really thinking about their approach to life and what life has got to offer them, stopping putting others down can be part of building their personal make-up.
4. Jenny How to get there 4

   3 July 2021 at 11:38 am

   '

   When will New Zealand start cutting its green house gas emissions?

   Cancel that.

   When will New Zealand stop increasing its greenhouse gas emissions?

   New Zealand's greenhouse gas emissions are increasing | Stuff.co.nz
   • Ad 4.1

     3 July 2021 at 2:25 pm

     When there are massive increases in wind farms and hydro dams to shut Huntly coal thermal power down.

     Not before.
     • Sabine 4.1.1

       3 July 2021 at 6:56 pm

       All is good then. 🙂
   • weka 4.2

     3 July 2021 at 3:20 pm

     article is from 2019.
     • Jenny how to get there 4.2.1

       3 July 2021 at 7:49 pm

       ‘
       Hi Weka,
       As I am sure you are aware, 2020 was an anomalous year for carbon emissions due to the measures taken to combat the global pandemic.

       If we applied the same measures we applied to beating covid-19, the climate disaster and global biosphere collapse could be averted.

       NZ’s greenhouse gas emissions drastically rise and fall

       Expert Reactions | Published: 13 April 2021

       …….recent Stats NZ figures show that in 2020 emissions fell by 4.8 per cent from the previous year, mainly due to Covid-19 restrictions causing a fall in transport emissions.

       https://www.sciencemediacentre.co.nz/2021/04/13/nzs-greenhouse-gas-emissions-drastically-rise-and-fall-expert-reaction/

       CLIMATE EMERGENCY

       New report charts NZ’s rising emissions

       The country's annual official record of emissions has found that in 2019 our tally rose in "one of the larger annual increases this century"

       …..Sara Mikaloff-Fletcher, an atmospheric-ocean scientist at NIWA, said figures from Statistics New Zealand also indicate emissions are likely to have fallen in 2020. This was a "glimmer of hope" and underscored our ability to reduce emissions from transport in particular.
       "This remains an enduring lesson about how much we can accomplish by reducing emissions from traffic. The Global Carbon Project estimated that during Level 4 lockdown, Aotearoa New Zealand’s carbon dioxide emissions dropped by more than any other country in the world except Luxembourg, a small European nation," she said.

       "This is in part due to the stringent lockdown measures we took, but it is also in part due to the fact that 82 percent of our electricity generation is already from renewable sources. Low emissions transportation systems have the potential to take us a long way towards our Carbon Zero goals, without the devastating humanitarian and economic impacts of Covid."

       https://www.newsroom.co.nz/new-report-charts-nzs-rising-emissions
     • Jenny how to get there 4.2.2

       4 July 2021 at 4:03 am

       weka

       3 July 2021 at 3:20 pm

       article is from 2019.

       video is from 2020

       https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/fuo5zf/due_to_decrease_in_pollution_himalayan_mountains/

       It's heartbreaking really, it's like nature showed us how to save ourselves, but we decided to keep on destroying the biosphere anyway.

       Because y'know, the economy.
       • Jenny How to get there 4.2.2.1

         4 July 2021 at 10:33 am

         Videos like this prove that we could have saved the biosphere, if we chose to.

         For wilfully ignoring the unique insight and opportunity to change our ways, afforded to us by the pandemic, our generation will be loathed and despised for the rest of recorded history.

         We should all be deeply ashamed.
5. Scud 5

   3 July 2021 at 11:41 am

   Morning all,

   Finally relived that the Nth’ern NT is no longer in locking, but in the same token I managed to knock out a couple of more model ships.

   Anyway I see the UKLP won the recent By-election, but it’s not out of the woods yet and to be quite honest I don’t think they will never get a chance to serous threaten BoJo atm unless there is some serious changes within the UKLP

   Found this on the Tribune Website. An interesting read, I must say.

   https://tribunemag.co.uk/2021/07/how-the-fall-of-mining-unions-eroded-the-foundations-of-the-red-wall

   Finally I must say watching the Nat’s slowly eat it’s self is very refreshing given the various NeoCon Lib BS of last 30ys from the National, but I must also confess this is bad for NZ Democracy as we must have an effective opposition to make the Government accountable. But since the National Party is now run by the Moriarty’s with all those negative waves they are producing atm, then it’s going to be a long time before they are back in Government or do anything meaningful in opposition.
   • greywarshark 5.1

     3 July 2021 at 3:33 pm

     Yes some are thinking of supporting Winston back – just so that there is an alert person awake in the Opposition benches.
6. Incognito 6

   3 July 2021 at 11:50 am

   As a site Moderator, I can and do highly appreciate this opinion piece by Jenny Nicholls.

   And ideally, nobody should feel gagged. But every forum has rules of engagement. A letter to the editor is a submission, not a right to cause pain.

   Some argue these missiles are ‘opinion,’ and don’t need checking.

   Indeed, this is a misconception that seems to have taken root with a few lazy thinkers who don’t want to do the mahi and check let alone support their own opinion unless it is from a doubtful source, usually on social media.

   “The stronger the opinion, the better the letter [to the Editor] – but all that strength is undercut when opinion is based on error and falsehood.”

   QFT

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/125624319/letters-to-the-editor–why-are-so-many-bigoted-mad-or-just-plain-wrong
   • Matiri 6.1

     3 July 2021 at 1:51 pm

     QFT indeed.
   • greywarshark 6.2

     3 July 2021 at 8:33 pm

     This one from Dom Post good as well – was in the handy additional links that stuff often includes.

     https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/comment/300323411/letter-from-the-dompost-editor-are-letters-still-relevant-in-the-digital-age?rm=a
7. Jenny How to get there 7

   3 July 2021 at 11:53 am

   '

   [banner removed]

   'Nowhere is safe': Devastating 'heat dome' sparks warning from scientists

   James Fyfe 19 hrs ago

   "The risks have been understood and known for so long and we have not acted, now we have a very narrow timeline for us to manage the problem."

   Sir David King, the former UK chief scientific advisor.

   'Nowhere is safe': Devastating 'heat dome' sparks warning from scientists (msn.com)
8. Forget now 8

   3 July 2021 at 11:55 am

   This is pretty unpleasant, but hard to argue against (Sex-trafficing/ abuse of minors content warning). The age restrictions in the prostitution laws really do have to be enforced!

   I know people who have been through that and they are really not keen on having anything to do with the police, and who can blame them? But without prosecutions there is no incentive to change. Just so long as the victims are protected during the process.

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/446092/new-zealand-not-doing-enough-to-stop-trafficking-us-report-says
9. joe90 9

   3 July 2021 at 12:48 pm

   Pro-plague code is a thing.

   https://twitter.com/VaxxersAnti/status/1410682117336363010
   • weka 9.1

     3 July 2021 at 12:57 pm

     Purity pirouette
   • Incognito 9.2

     3 July 2021 at 1:01 pm

     I’ve always believed that it takes two to tango. At least.
     • Sabine 9.2.1

       3 July 2021 at 6:56 pm

       Two Step.
   • greywarshark 9.3

     3 July 2021 at 3:37 pm

     Dancers with wolves?
10. Adrian 10

    3 July 2021 at 2:07 pm

    Janet Wilson trying to make up for rubbishing The Nat’s the other day and realising she had closed off her last possible employer for a P R job so accuses Labour of lying over vac rollout in today’s Stuff. It is bullshit that UK has vaccinated 60% of their population, less than that have had a single dose with about 33% coverage for the nastiest variant. My daughter got her Phizer stab in London the same day as me here in NZ, I get my second in a week, she has to wait another 10 weeks for her second. That’s not vaccination that’s politically ball juggling and explains why the UK is about to move into a seriously big spike in cases. And as for Australia, Scotty -from Marketing’s ScoMoJo has deserted him, they are in deep shit over there with their first Phizer s months away because he backed the wrong horse.
    • Incognito 10.1

      3 July 2021 at 2:18 pm

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/125626002/covid19-honest-conversations-absent-on-vaccine-supply-and-rollout

      Please add the link yourself, next time, thanks.
    • Sabine 10.2

      3 July 2021 at 6:02 pm

      you find that no she did not lie about the levels of english vaccinations.

      https://www.bbc.com/news/health-55274833

      just scroll down to see the vaccination rates accross English Regions.

      Again, the vaccines do not prevent the catching of covid, but so far they prevent a whole lot of death and hospitalization.

      The delta variant for now will most like become the most prominent / strongest variant, however that will change in due time and it will be replaced by another variant. As posted below, maybe it is now Indonesia’s time to breed one.

      It is lovely that you had your vaccinations, ditto for your daughter, however there are many in this country that have yet to receive even just the invite that they have been waiting for a longtime now.

      It actually does not matter atm really, could the Government be more forthcoming with the truth, rather then couch it in platitudes that are utterly meaningless – ditto we are ahead of what?

      What matters is that hopefully the Government will abandon its 'one fits all' approach, and has the health department approve the other options, Astra Zeneca being one.

      Fwiw, we have friends from NZ in the UK and not only have the bought a house there recently they also got their jabs.

      And fwiw, not knowing anything about this Journalists, i am happy to note that she can write stuff about both N and L and call them out on their 'issues'
11. Jenny how to get there 11

    3 July 2021 at 2:32 pm

    Is New Zealand a leader in climate change or a follower?

    David Hall, Newshub, 06/10/2020

    ….John Key, often described [New Zealand] as being "a fast follower, not a leader".

    He had lifted this language from the New Zealand Institute's 2007 report, which argued against "lofty rhetoric about saving the planet or being a world leader". Instead, it counselled New Zealand to respond without "investing unnecessarily in leading the way".

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/10/opinion-is-new-zealand-a-leader-in-climate-change-or-a-follower.html

    We now know the answer to David Hall's question.

    John Key must be laughing up his sleeve.

    Wow! Canada will not just a ban the importation of internal combustion vehicles, but will even ban the sale of ice vehicles.

    New Zealand can't even agree on a ban on importing them.

    So much for fast follower.

    Not even.

    Canada to ban sale of new fuel-powered cars and light trucks from 2035
    Steve Scherer, Reuters, June 30, 2021

    OTTAWA, June 29 (Reuters) – Canada will ban the sale of fuel-burning new cars and light-duty trucks from 2035 in an effort to reach net-zero emissions across the country by 2050, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's government said on Tuesday.

    Only zero-emissions cars and trucks can be sold from 2035, according to a statement, adding that a mixture of investments and regulations will help industry transition toward that goal. The government also said it will set interim targets for 2025 and 2030.

    ……Britain said last year it would ban fuel-powered vehicles from 2030,…

    https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/canada-ban-sale-new-fuel-powered-cars-light-trucks-2035-2021-06-29/?fbclid=IwAR2cfzFZMl6Shbyyd0NWW5jjPTNH9f4zn0Xe9CpbFJ-jG2XktWfXNBDr66U
    • Matiri 11.1

      3 July 2021 at 3:32 pm

      Norway is on track to end the sale of petrol and diesel cars by 2025.
      https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jan/05/electric-cars-record-market-share-norway
      • Sabine 11.1.1

        3 July 2021 at 6:45 pm

        i wonder what we are going to do with all these cars?

        https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0910970/plotsummary

        In a distant, but not so unrealistic, future where mankind has abandoned earth because it has become covered with trash from products sold by the powerful multi-national Buy N Large corporation, WALL-E, a garbage collecting robot has been left to clean up the mess.
        • Jenny how to get there 11.1.1.1

          3 July 2021 at 8:10 pm

          And would you have it, on TV2 tonight, WALL-E is busy saving the world (what's left of it anyway)
12. Incognito 12

    3 July 2021 at 3:05 pm

    Yup, retracted, but at considerable cost already.

    https://sciblogs.co.nz/diplomaticimmunity/2021/07/03/fundamentally-flawed-study-on-covid-19-vaccine-safety-is-rapidly-retracted/
    • Matiri 12.1

      3 July 2021 at 3:41 pm

      Even without going into the depth that our eminently qualified Dr Helen Petousis-Harris goes into, it was obvious from a simple google search on the study authors that this was a deeply flawed study.
      • Incognito 12.1.1

        3 July 2021 at 5:34 pm

        It didn’t take much time, but a fair bit of effort, for the system to self-correct and go though the due process. However, anything on the Web can spread far & wide within minutes, i.e. go viral [sorry for the pun]. The seed has been planted in many because the seed & soil approach works wonders online.
    • Anne 12.2

      3 July 2021 at 6:43 pm

      From the link:

      The damage to vaccine confidence and trust that can occur through the distribution of pseudoscience in good quality academic journals cannot be underestimated.

      I was in a waiting room of a specialist in skin care recently when some woman started rabbiting on about the Covid 19 vaccine causing sterility in young women. It transpired her daughter worked for a medical outfit and they had all been vaccinated. It happened without her knowledge and she was furious because she is convinced her daughter can no longer have kids.

      I managed to contain my fury until after the woman had left……
    • Jenny How to get there 12.3

      4 July 2021 at 11:24 am

      Incognito

      3 July 2021 at 3:05 pm

      Yup, retracted, but at considerable cost already…..

      Not a new problem…

      Not by a long shot.

      'A lie can travel halfway around the world before the truth can get its boots on'

      Metaphorical maxims about the speedy dissemination of lies and the much slower propagation of corrective truths have a very long history. The major literary figure Jonathan Swift wrote on this topic in “The Examiner” in 1710 although he did not mention shoes or boots. Boldface has been added to excerpts: 1

      Besides, as the vilest Writer has his Readers, so the greatest Liar has his Believers; and it often happens, that if a Lie be believ’d only for an Hour, it has done its Work, and there is no farther occasion for it. Falsehood flies, and the Truth comes limping after it; so that when Men come to be undeceiv’d, it is too late; the Jest is over, and the Tale has had its Effect…

      The phrasing and figurative language used in these sayings have been evolving for more than three hundred years……

      …….In 1808 an adage matching Swift’s was printed without ascription in a Boston, Massachusetts newspaper column titled “Thoughts”: 4

      “Falsehood,” says one, “flies, and truth comes limping after it.” If a lie be believed sometimes only for an hour, it has accomplished its purpose, and there is no further occasion for it.

      A Lie Can Travel Halfway Around the World While the Truth Is Putting On Its Shoes – Quote Investigator

      Later, more modern variations on Johnathon Swift’s observation on the dissemination of lies and falsehoods, have been attributed to Mark Twain and Winston Churchill, (among others).
13. Drowsy M. Kram 13

    3 July 2021 at 5:10 pm

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/indonesia/
    Tragic epidemic in the world's 4th most populous country set to get worse, and increase the potential for selection of new COVID-19 variants on Australasia's 'doorstep'.

    Indonesia to get US vaccine donations amid COVID emergency
    Since the pandemic last year, Indonesia has reported a total of 2,228,938 cases and 59,534 deaths.

    The surge in new cases and deaths has prompted President Joko Widodo to declare emergency restrictions on movement starting on Saturday in the island of Java and Bali. The lockdown is effective until July 20.

    Indonesia caught between surge and slow vaccine rollout
    Last year, Indonesia’s highest Islamic clerical body issued a decree that mass graves – which are normally forbidden in Islam – would be permitted during the crisis.
    …
    He [Dicky Budiman, an epidemiologist at Griffith University in Australia] said the government needs to make “good and strong decisions based on science …. or I fear we will find ourselves in a similar situation to what happened in India.”
14. joe90 14

    3 July 2021 at 6:30 pm

    If we've learnt anything at all over the past eighteen months.

    The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function.

    ― Albert A. Bartlett

    https://twitter.com/WMO/status/1410223888412381193

    https://twitter.com/weatherdak/status/1410429592213413889

    https://twitter.com/weatherdak/status/1411191134357901313
    • arkie 14.1

      3 July 2021 at 6:44 pm

      And then there’s this:

      https://twitter.com/blkahn/status/1411073985765314560
      • Sabine 14.1.1

        3 July 2021 at 6:46 pm

        lets buy electric cars and pave more roads.
        • The Al1en 14.1.1.1

          3 July 2021 at 7:05 pm

          And stop eating chocolate
          • joe90 14.1.1.1.1

            3 July 2021 at 7:10 pm

            Steady on there, sport…
            • The Al1en 14.1.1.1.1.1

              3 July 2021 at 7:27 pm

              I hear you, but if we're going to knock the uptake of evs for personal transportation, we may as well take the hit to immediately reduce the deforestation, high water use and increased pesticide use that comes with growing cocoa, and that's before we even mention the emissions involved in world wide distribution from tropical growing areas to everywhere else on the planet.
              • Sabine …

                3 July 2021 at 7:31 pm

                ah, but you can get good beans from samoa, java, heck, even Australia. and i know of a few people here in NZ that are wondering if you could grow the plant.

                The thing is that everything we do involves the issues that you just listed. Was your computer or phone made here? Every car is imported. Every single car. I dont' have one, and can't see myself getting one. See, i am offsetting my chocolate already.

                my option is as always, provide free and or very cheap public transport to first get all the cars of the road that are unsafe, unrego'd and mainly there because it is the only meas of transport. The tax incentives for E-bikes and hanger (Germany does this quite successfully). The rich are rich enough to buy themselves a 50.000 + new vehicle – electric or gasoline, its the poor that don't have a choice its a crappy cheap old 500+ car or nothing.
                • The Al1en …

                  3 July 2021 at 7:35 pm

                  Excuses and diversions not accepted. You're either preaching on the climate change train or you're not really on it at all.

                  I suspect, like many business people, your green credentials come second to your bank balances.

                  Maybe you should think of the planet now and jump over to a more eco friendly 'trade'.

                  Or are you waiting for your own tax payer funded government grant before you stop wrecking the world?
                  • Sabine …

                    3 July 2021 at 7:47 pm

                    at the moment i am doing what is preached – i have no single serve private vehicle i use public transport, my product is collectively imported by all the chocolatiers in nz – literally, and all other products used are produced and made local. I keep my own carbon footprint as small as i can, ditto in my private living. As for chocolate, eat it now, because we might run out within the next few years and it will become an object of luxury and rarety.

                    I however understand that what i do has very little effect on the outcome of the future, as per above images, never mind i shall carry on.

                    I made an obviously failed attempt at gallows humor at some dire imagery posted and for this I humbly off my apologies.

                    I shall now return to my prayer closet.
                    • The Al1en …

                      3 July 2021 at 7:53 pm

                      Sounds like a v8 driver on the school run who puts out the recycling bin every Thursday. Well done you.
                    • greywarshark …

                      3 July 2021 at 8:12 pm

                      Sabine very elegant retreat and interesting what you are doing.
                • Jenny how to get there …

                  4 July 2021 at 7:59 am

                  Sabine

                  3 July 2021 at 7:31 pm

                  ….. The rich are rich enough to buy themselves a 50.000 + new vehicle – electric or gasoline, its the poor that don't have a choice its a crappy cheap old 500+ car or nothing.

                  A 1999 Toyota Corolla in good condition with a warrant and registration, can be bought for the same price as an entry level E-bike.

                  Apart from their cost, currently one of the big disincentives for owning an E-bike in a low decile area at the moment is that they are a hot ticket item for thieves. I suppose it's a form of primitive redistribution to the lowest of the low. But unfortunately the thieves don't ride them. They break them down and sell them for parts. Especially the battery.

                  Subsidising EVs for the middle class consumer is fine. but it is not going to do anything for the people of Manurewa or Otara who need to commute to their factory in Penrose or East Tamaki. Or our cleaning job in the hospitals and CBD.

                  How about this?

                  If the government can't bring themselves to subsidise E-bikes so the blue collar masses can own one, at least think of subsidising the insurance of the things.
                  • Sabine …

                    4 July 2021 at 10:31 am

                    The government could subsidize public transport so as to make it free or near free. That would be one of the easiest things to do. While the public transport net is still not optimal, it is there but expensive. I used to bus / walk to work in Auckland, and a monthly bus ticket is not cheap. I ended up walking Arch Hill / Grey Lynn to New market. I also lived closer to town where i worked simply so as to not need a car for commuting. I may have paid more in rent (yes, times have changed since then) but that was offset by not having a car.

                    And yes, it should subsidize other forms of transport if only to appear fair. But we are now helping well to do people by cars that are more expensive than what some people (nurses) earn in a whole year. Priorities.

                    https://twitter.com/GretaThunberg/status/1411017496212168706
              • joe90 …

                3 July 2021 at 7:49 pm

                Indeed. But of course, nothing much will change until the dams burst and suddenly the tucker we love is off the menu, supplanted by an entirely plant based diet and assorted ground up beastie proteins.
                • The Al1en …

                  3 July 2021 at 7:56 pm

                  Only eating local will be a good thing, and I'm sure the ground up beastie proteins will still taste okay with tomato sauce all over them.
                • joe90 …

                  3 July 2021 at 8:05 pm

                  Anyhoo, while there's still chocolate to eat, I thoroughly enjoyed this in the early hours.

                  Natalie Haynes and Moy McGowan savour some chocolate podcasts. They discover how music can alter the taste of chocolate… and why the humble midge plays a vital part in the growing the bean that becomes your favourite bar! And they hear from Dame Cacao herself, the podcaster Max Gandy who is dedicated to crafting a sustainable and delicious world by changing the way we eat & understand chocolate.

                  https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000xfp0
              • Sacha …

                3 July 2021 at 10:35 pm

                Tea drinkers first 🙂
                • The Al1en …

                  3 July 2021 at 10:57 pm

                  Thank goodness for Hawke's bay and Nelson cider apples
          • Sabine 14.1.1.1.2

            3 July 2021 at 7:15 pm

            We are all planning for that day.

            In the meantime this will 'bridge' and be chocolate of the future.

            https://www.barry-callebaut.com/en/manufacturers/wholefruit-chocolate-barry-callebaut

            To be honest, can't wait to get that stuff in my melter.
15. Pat 15

    3 July 2021 at 10:30 pm

    "The UK has been wedded for decades to a household debt-led growth model, whereby ever-rising house prices driven by evermore bank credit support consumption via wealth effects and home equity withdrawal. Real estate is also the key form of collateral for the banking system, meaning house prices also impact directly on the ability of businesses to access credit."

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jul/02/housing-bubble-birst-uk-gdp-house-prices-interest-rates-economy

    "For a while, this form of “residential capitalism” can support consumption even when incomes stagnate. But it is economically inefficient and drives inequality and financial instability. Those who already own property gain the most while non-owners see their wealth decline and have to take on ever larger and longer mortgages to get on the housing ladder, suppressing their consumption. Since lower-income groups spend more of every additional pound of income, this can have deleterious economy-wide impacts.

    High levels of household debt coupled with house price crashes are associated with deep and long recessions. This model also drives highly damaging boom-bust cycles and mediates against long-term business investment and productivity growth. Why invest in new products or services when you can get a higher return on property?"

    Sound familiar?
16. Sacha 16

    3 July 2021 at 11:25 pm

    The important questions

    https://twitter.com/pookleblinky/status/1411142403629752321
    • Sabine 16.1

      4 July 2021 at 11:39 am

      https://twitter.com/rkbarney/status/1411122964016160768

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