Key still wishes we had invaded Iraq

Written By: Steve Pierson - Date published: 6:45 am, September 18th, 2008 - 158 comments
Categories: election 2008, International, john key, same old national - Tags:

Helen Clark made foreign policy judgement a campaign issue today when she told a Grey Power meeting that if New Zealand had invaded Iraq with the US as John Key wanted we would have lost up to 60 soldiers*. Through a spokesman, John Key said “the claim of 60 dead is hysterical and desperate”.

I can’t help noticing that Key isn’t denying that if he had his way we would be in Iraq and soldiers would have died. Instead, he made a misogynist personal attack (yes, it is misogynist, look up hysteria).

Remember, Key is the man who cried we were ‘missing in action in Iraq’. He is the man who said the “war in Iraq is over” a year ago (since then at the very least 7000 people have been killed and tens of thousands maimed). His caucus is stacked with pro-US hardliners like Lockwood Smith and Simon Power, who said we should go to war wherever the US and UK lead and pay our ‘fair share’ in soldiers’ lives. Can we trust Key and this mob not to lead us into the US’s next military disaster?

*[Clark got 60 by calculating our population compared to the US and the US’s losses in Iraq – nearly every nation that helped invade Iraq has lost soldiers, some at much higher rates than the US. Australia got off light with one non-combat death because they didn’t have many combat troops there. Full Iraq causality numbers here]

158 comments on “Key still wishes we had invaded Iraq ”

Comments are now closed

monkey boy 1

18 September 2008 at 6:55 am

I’m confused. Does this fall under ‘negative’ or ‘dirty’ campaigning?
Billy 2

18 September 2008 at 7:07 am

Steve, you’re sounding a bit hysterical yourself. And I do not mean that in a sexist way.
monkey boy 3

18 September 2008 at 7:23 am

At the risk of you coming across all ‘Elaiane Showalter’, I think when the PM can make up a number of dead ‘on the back of an envelope’ as an accusation against the opposition and then you can run a headline supporting that fantasy number, purporting to have an inner knowledge of Key’s ‘wishes’.
That’s just making stuff up as you go along, isn’t it?
Bryan Spondre 4

18 September 2008 at 7:34 am

“I can’t help noticing that Key isn’t denying that if he had his way ”

Reaching Steve, reaching. Clearly the left must really fear the popularity that John Key has in the electorate.

DPF has an excellent repudiation of Helen Clark’s calculation and demonstrates the likely number is 1 death and even less likely if we had been involved only in the invasion. American deaths were very low during the invasion, around 140 I believe.
higherstandard 5

18 September 2008 at 7:36 am

You’ve got to give the PM credit.

She knows WP’s vote base is wavering and she’s working their fears and prejudices hard. I wonder if she’s prepared to go down the “yellow peril” route as well.

By the way your misogynist line’s getting a bit tired.
vto 6

18 September 2008 at 7:40 am

Clark is deceptively clever at deception.

IMO her calculation ‘on the back of the envelope’ and coming up with 60 was dishonest and deceitful. There are many ways in which such a ‘back of the envelope’ calculation could be made. example – her calculation compared to troops employed had NZ then sending 15,000 troops to Iraq. Ha, what a freaking joke. She just knew it would make a good headline.

Just like her deceit over Winston Bjeikle-Peterson and his own deceit, this again paints her as absolutely no different to most any other politician who makes up shit to grab a headline.

Oh well, at least she’s consistent – in under-estimating the smarts of most NZers who would call it for the bullshit it was. Maybe that has something to do with the longish term decline in her fortunes.

She is a deceiver of the most deceptive kind.
Andrew 7

18 September 2008 at 7:41 am

For goodness sake, Labour sent troups to Iraq and there were no deaths. Now before you say that was because it was after the initial invasion force, the inital invasion was the safest time to be there. In the time that NZ was there was one of the most dangerous times to be there.

please stop your hysterical spin campain and get your facts right.

We have had 4 soldiers killed in east teamor, one or which, leonard manning, was a close personal friend of mine from Te Kauwhata!

There are lies, damn lies and statistics. You spin them the way you want without looking at all the facts! grow up!
Ted 8

18 September 2008 at 7:50 am

Is Helen Clark on large doses of psychotropic medications?
max 9

18 September 2008 at 8:00 am

[Tane: We’re not going to host that kind of homophobic bile.]
John 10

18 September 2008 at 8:03 am

The smell of desperation is overwhelming.

“Key still wishes’? where has he said that?- oh, no denial. That proves it then?

“misogynist personal attack’. Well I took you invitation and looked it up. Is this the reference you are referring to in your link?

“The term hysteria was coined by Hippocrates, who thought that suffocation and madness arose in women whose uteri had become too light and dry from lack of sexual intercourse and, as a result, wandered upward, compressing the heart, lungs, and diaphragm.’

“60 dead’? Aussies casuality ratio is .01% -assuming NZ sent 8% of our armed forces (or 770 troops) we may just be treating one of them for a broken arm.

The poor oldies having to hear all that BS, when all they should care about is the 400 deaths per annum on NZ hospital waiting lists
max 11

18 September 2008 at 8:09 am

Nice one Tane: THere was NO homophobic bile there, but if it makes you feel better about censoring a valid point of view buddy.
max 12

18 September 2008 at 8:11 am

You care to replace the post with the ‘homophobic bile’ blanked out so everyone can see the ‘homophobic’ context?

LOL – you people are jokes.
max 13

18 September 2008 at 8:13 am

Bt I forgot, the new anti-key ‘strategy’ (big word for a bully boy tactic) is to brand him a mysoginist homophobe.
Tane 14

18 September 2008 at 8:15 am

Max. Other commenters write dissenting points of view here without being moderated, and there is clearly no shortage of right-wing points of view on this site. Your overstepped the mark with your homophobic filth. Stop acting like you’re a free speech martyr.
max 15

18 September 2008 at 8:20 am

There wasnt one iota of ‘homophobic’ filth in my post – if there was you would have reprinted it.

You just didnt like how close to the bone my analysis was.

[Tane: There will be no more correspondence on this matter. Clean up your act or you will be banned.]
Stephen 16

18 September 2008 at 8:24 am

“Key still wishes we had invaded Iraq”

Where the hell did he say that? Did he even say it?!
vto 17

18 September 2008 at 8:33 am

good bit of biffo there
ak 18

18 September 2008 at 8:40 am

No wonder the frothers are sensitive over this one: there is no doubt whatsoever that if Key had been PM at the time, New Zealand would have become part of the “coalition of the willing” and our country indelibly branded on the lists of various fanatics.

The brutal deaths of family members is remembered for generations: but for Helen Clark’s maturity and principle, our children and their children’s children would have been potential targets of terrorism forever.

In an uncertain world the last person we want in charge is a green, hollow, flip-flopping money trader with the gravitas of a wet tissue.
monkey-boy 19

18 September 2008 at 8:44 am

Oh, I get it now. Thanks ak.
vto 20

18 September 2008 at 8:46 am

but ak how does clark sending our troops to both iraq and afghanistan with consequent risk of becoming a more high profile terrorism target fit in your partisan summation?
Pascal's bookie 21

18 September 2008 at 9:04 am

vto, I think most can see the difference between Iraq and Afghanistan.

Most can also tell the difference between the invasion of Iraq, the UN authorised window that we were in there for, and the later occupation that flared up seriously in 06.

Hope that’s not too partisan.
Andrew 22

18 September 2008 at 9:06 am

ak – according to the United Nations we are on a list of contries that have been fighting the war in Iraq.

What do you have to say to that? … once again, please get your facts right before sprouting off about a subject you know nothing about.

[lprent: Not quite. We are on the list of countries that are doing work in Iraq. In this case after the UN requested help (post-invasion) with critical infrastructure, we sent over EME’s (engineers). I think (from memory) they were repairing water systems.

We did not help invade or occupy Iraq as part of the coalition of the terminal brown noses.

“please get your facts right before sprouting off about a subject you know nothing about.”
Yes well…..]
Brett dale 23

18 September 2008 at 9:07 am

First off it was disgusting that she used fear tactics and an insult to anyone who has fought for their country.

Secondly to make up a number by population is just bad math. The American troops have been doing most of the fighting, thats why their death toll is around 4000.

Taking Aunty Helen’s attempt at math’s, the Australian death toll should be at around 240?

How many Australians have been killed in Iraq?
Scribe 24

18 September 2008 at 9:09 am

The smell of desperation is overwhelming.

‘Nuff said.

captcha: arrested $50,000 (no, it was $100k)
Steve Pierson 25

18 September 2008 at 9:17 am

brett you can haggle over the numbers if you like. the Aussies lost 1 would that be ok with you? The Estonians two, Denmark 7… how many dead is ok by you brett? Because, like Key, you seem fixated on the number, not the idea we should have sent soldiers to die.
Inventory2 26

18 September 2008 at 9:18 am

Ignoring the fact that John Key wouldn’t have been PM had National won in 2005, do you have the actual quote of Key saying this Steve? Or are you using the back of an envelope as well?

Meanwhile, who said “This is an election about trust”? The same person who makes up figures on the hoof.
Felix 27

18 September 2008 at 9:19 am

Are the special needs schools having a day off today or something?

You all know very well Key would have had us join the invasion of Iraq. You all know he’ll have us join the next international disaster too.

It’s not a case of reading between the lines either – he said it and he’s never revised that wish (except to say it’s no longer an issue).

So why don’t you all just come out and say you agree with him that we should have been in Iraq all along?
vto 28

18 September 2008 at 9:20 am

the invasion of iraq sukked. humanity at its worst.
travellerev 29

18 September 2008 at 9:29 am

Good to see all the trollers out in full force and showing their ignorance in its full glory once again.

I would love to know the contents of John Key’s portfolio. I wonder if he has Halliburton, Raetheon or Boeing shares to name a few of the profitable war crime corporations.

Of course little footsoldier to the privatly owned banking elite John Key would have loved to partake in both wars. That’s how bankers make most of their profits.
They financed both sides in WW I and II and it is very much the MO of the international privately owned banking cartel.

Helen Clark’s number of casualties is of course purely speculative but chances are that the number she mentions is actually on the low side.
Helen Clark makes a case for this number but what she does not acknowledge is the contamination with “Depleted” Uranium which is making tens of thousands of US troops ill while their casualties do not appear in the official figures.

Both Iraq and Afghanistan are contaminated with more than 2000 tons each of ceramic DU nanoparticles causing massive increases in cancer, Leukaemia and child deformities. It isn’t just humans but animals and plant life is affected and will be for the next ooh 4.5 billion years. Ooops, that is as long as the earth has existed so that would mean until the end of times. And don’t worry guys it will come home to NZ with our troops. Wait for the first rapports of deformities. I have heard of one already.
Inventory2 30

18 September 2008 at 9:33 am

travellerev said “And don’t worry guys it will come home to NZ with our troops. Wait for the first rapports of deformities. I have heard of one already.”

So it’s true then – Helen Clark did send troops to Iraq?
Tim Ellis 31

18 September 2008 at 9:41 am

Good on you SP. I do like a good wind-up in the morning.

Helen Clark’s claim was silly and preposterous. It was as close to your own definition of dirty campaigning that you can get. The numbers were a bald-faced lie. It’s as credible as John Key saying: “If aliens had invaded New Zealand during Helen Clark’s term of office, then she would have welcomed them, and they would have infected the population with disease and wiped out half of New Zealand. If aliens had arrived, Helen Clark would have the blood of millions on her hands.”

That claim is as credible as Helen Clark’s yesterday. I think it is just filthy to go to a Grey Power meeting and scare-monger elderly like that. Elderly people have an expectation that when the Prime Minister turns up, she is going to put forward the truth. They treat her with respect, as they do all visitors. There isn’t a shred of truth to what Helen Clark said yesterday. Not a single media report gave her credit for it. I suspect if she continues to behave like that, she is going to lose even more credibility with the media.

SP, there is also no evidence that John Key was being mysogynist. That is an hysterical argument from you. It was very, very weak. That John Key didn’t deny it is not confirmation. Plenty of authors of the Standard have been accused of things, which has not been confirmed or denied. I suspect that is because the accusations have been so baseless that they aren’t worthy of the dignity of a response.

Helen Clark’s claim was so baseless, John Key didn’t need to dignify it with a response.
Tim Ellis 32

18 September 2008 at 9:45 am

SP said:

brett you can haggle over the numbers if you like. the Aussies lost 1 would that be ok with you? The Estonians two, Denmark 7 how many dead is ok by you brett? Because, like Key, you seem fixated on the number, not the idea we should have sent soldiers to die.

Are you saying SP that we shouldn’t send soldiers anywhere? It is inevitable that if we send soldiers into conflict, there is a risk of death. We’ve lost soldiers in Timor. Helen Clark willingly committed soldiers to Timor, where we still have troops. Does that mean Helen Clark has blood on her hands SP?

[i’m not arguing all military action is wrong or that it is never worth risking soldiers’ lives, but the vast majority of kiwis didn’t think that iraq was one of those times. SP]
Andrew 33

18 September 2008 at 9:55 am

“Helen Clark willingly committed soldiers to Timor, where we still have troops. Does that mean Helen Clark has blood on her hands SP”

Game, Set …. Match!
vto 34

18 September 2008 at 9:56 am

Tim Ellis, clark and labour have a history of putting fear into the vulnerable. witness the ‘eviction notices’ to tenants last election. Now this to scare the elderly. Disgusting.

Keep the public in fear ay. Keeps them on side. Interesting to see clark following bush’s lead.
travellerev 35

18 September 2008 at 10:00 am

Inventory2,

The US bombed the hell out of Afghanistan with some 2000 tons of DU in October 2001 before going in and has continued to do so during the entire war. The official story is that New Zealand only send troops to Afghanistan but according to Iprent New Zealand also send civilians to Iraq to help with the rebuilding of the country.

I have also been told by an ex-military New Zealander that about three hundred ex military have been send to Iraq to train alongside US marines in the recent dÃ©tente between NZ and the US. He also told me that he knew some 60 of those personally.

I don’t know about the validity of that claim but I referred to the Afghanistan based troops only.

Helen Clark has no real control over that part of the NZ foreign policy though. She gets her orders from London and the crown on that one. At least that’s my take on it.

[lprent: we sent military. The EME’s are the army engineers. Easy enough to lookup I’d guess look around http://army.mil.nz. We sent them in about 2003 ? They were under the protection of the Brits in the south. They were sent afte rthe UN asked for assistance in getting critical infrastructure up and running again after it’d been bombed.]
Steve Pierson 36

18 September 2008 at 10:00 am

Andrew. my argument is not a pacifist one. i don’t believe all military action is wrong by definition and with miitary action comes the liklihod of loss of life. that’s actually what most people think – sometimes sending our boys in is the right thing to do and fingers crossed they all come back but key is happy to lose lives for the US invasion of iraq, and that’s where he parts ways with most kiwis.
Pascal's bookie 37

18 September 2008 at 10:03 am

Tim you seem very defensive.

I understand that you would far rather that this campaign not be fought on issues of judgement, and that the National parties judgemnet with regard to this issue was appalling, but Helen Clark did not lie.

You can’t lie about hypotheticals, you can hypothesise though. Which is all she did

So, not surprisingly, your sophistry once again is dishonest, and it is you that is lying.

Your mad arse counter theory about aliens falls flat because there was, in fact, an invasion of Iraq, and if we had of had a National government we would have been there, and in all likelyhood stayed there throughout the occupation.

We know this, because that is what the National party said.

They said we were ‘missing in action’ and that ‘where America goes, we should go’.

That is not a popular position these days and so you don’t like people talking about it, but untill the National party explain why they have changed their minds and give us reason to trust their judgement, which is what this is about, then your bluster remains just a diversionary tactic that everyone sees through like a in hole a ladder.
bill brown 38

18 September 2008 at 10:15 am

Tim,

I’d be interested to know what your ratio of number of NZ troops killed in Iraq would be to the security of supply of oil into US refineries.

Would 1 NZ soldier dead to no increase in security be OK?

Would 1 NZ soldier “with a broken arm” to no increase in security be OK?
vto 39

18 September 2008 at 10:17 am

P’s B clark deceived those grey power folk (or rather tried to deceive) with her ridiculous assumption. And she knows it. That is as close to lying as you can get without strictly ‘lying’.

dirty. negative. deceptive.
the sprout 40

18 September 2008 at 10:17 am

“Key still wishes we had invaded Iraq’

He must think there’s some short-term profit to be made.
And who said he was more like Bush than Obama?
Brett Dale 41

18 September 2008 at 10:24 am

Steve:

Because Aunty Helen gave a false number as a estimate to shock people and get more votes, it was a sick thing to do just to garner more votes.
Dom 42

18 September 2008 at 10:27 am

Tim, you cannot compare Iraq and Timor. Those of us who have lost relatives in this US led invasion of Iraq find that comparison vile.
RedLogix 43

18 September 2008 at 10:28 am

Again travellerev hits a vital point; the fact that HC’s ‘back of envelope’ calculation uses an artificially low figure for US Iraqi war casualties in the first place. The US have been using a range of dishonest methods to downplay the real number right from the outset; but alongside this is even more wrenching tragedy of those who return home severely crippled and maimed.

One aspect of the Iraq war is that soldiers who would have died on their injuries in WW2 or even Vietnam, are now because of the new body armour, improved evacutation and treatment options, are ‘surviving’ to return home alive, but profoundly brain damaged.

Another astounding aspect has been the suicide rates among returned Iraqi vets. How deeply traumatic must it be to realise that was your tour of service in Iraq was legally and morally wrong; that far from being of any use, you were hated by the Iraqi people.

And again as trav reminds us, the whole DU issue will not go away. There is just far too much evidence that something very evil has happened here, and one day we will no longer be able to deny it.
Pascal's bookie 44

18 September 2008 at 10:28 am

vto, It’s about judgement. I think those “grey power folk ” understand that. Whose judgement was right, whose was wrong, and whose can we trust. The National party has given me no reason to trust theirs.
Andrew 45

18 September 2008 at 10:29 am

“lprent: we sent military. The EME’s are the army engineers”

Yes we did send engineers as well as soldiers. The point i was trying to make to ak, was that Islamic fundamentalists will not see the difference between other troops and our ‘engineers’ as we are foreign soldiers on thier soil. They obviously don’t hate us as much as the americans or brits, but we were still there in their country. So that makes us a target as well … a very, very unlikely target, but a target in the eyes of some all the same.

I know a few soldiers that were in Iraq and as well as engineers, they did in fact engage in direct fighting when the need arose. they were by no means on the front line, but fighting and shooting at people none the less.

So all i was trying to say was it is disgusting that Helen used our brave troops as pawns in her political campaign of fear against John Key.

Negative, or dirty? you decide.
r0b 46

18 September 2008 at 10:34 am

It’s as credible as John Key saying: “If aliens had invaded New Zealand during Helen Clark’s term of office, then she would have welcomed them, and they would have infected the population with disease and wiped out half of New Zealand. If aliens had arrived, Helen Clark would have the blood of millions on her hands.’ That claim is as credible as Helen Clark’s yesterday.

Is it Tim? Perhaps you should buy yourself a tinfoil hat. Those aliens might be out to get you.

Meanwhile back in the real world Iraq is a moral, social, military (and for the US financial) fiasco that NZ did very well to stay out of.

I think it is just filthy to go to a Grey Power meeting and scare-monger elderly like that.

She was very well received Tim, with applause for her comments on Iraq. Nice of you to get all upset on their behalf, but I think Grey Power can make up their own minds, don’t you? Or perhaps your aliens are using their mind control beams on them?
RedLogix 47

18 September 2008 at 10:43 am

So all i was trying to say was it is disgusting that Helen used our brave troops as pawns in her political campaign of fear against John Key.

Why? The simple fact is that if New Zealand had sent a useful sized contingent of combat troops into Iraq… as John Key said he would have done…. we would have had combat deaths. If we had sent say 1000 troops, simple calculations suggest maybe 30 to 60 body bags, depending on the range of assumptions you make. There is no denying this. It was a perfectly reasonable thing to point out, that Mr Key’s stated position on Iraq had a logical consequence.

Or are you merely uncomfortable at having this pointed out to you?
rave 48

18 September 2008 at 10:51 am

Is this statement by Clark ‘negative or dirty’?
Neither. The war is dirty, pointing that out is positive.
The Nats are dirty for wanting to fight in wars for oil for profits. Even Greenspan acknowledged that the war in Iraq was for oil.
That statement is not negative, its positive, because its advancing the position that this is a dirty war and should be stopped.
What’s positive? That US invaders are getting killed. What would be more positive? That the US ruling class that profits from this war should be conscripted to put their lives and their money where their mouths are.
If Key, Power and Co want NZ to get involved in wars for oil for profit, they should be the first to be taxed to pay for them and the first to be drafted.
vto 49

18 September 2008 at 10:55 am

rave for once i agree with one of your points. those who make a decision to go to war must go and fight the war themselves as well.
Tim Ellis 50

18 September 2008 at 10:55 am

RedLogix, we didn’t have a thousand troops available to send to Iraq. It is beyond ludicrous to assume that our troops would have faced monumentally higher risks than Australia. We’ve lost more soldiers in Timor than Australia has in Iraq.
gobsmacked 51

18 September 2008 at 11:01 am

Of course a National government would have had blood on their hands, in an illegal, insane war. Innocent civilian blood.

I know, them Eye-raqis with funny names don’t count as human, but there you go.
r0b 52

18 September 2008 at 11:10 am

It is beyond ludicrous to assume that our troops would have faced monumentally higher risks than Australia.

Tell it to Denmark – they lost 7 times what Australia lost.

Risks depend on where troops are and how they are deployed. In previous wars NZ has had higher per capita death rates than other Commonwealth countries.
travellerev 53

18 September 2008 at 11:15 am

You know my father in law is 82 and completely up and running with politics and 911 etc. He doesn’t scare easily and takes his time researching topics we talk about on the internet and while he has a very respectable age his brain is in excellent shape.

What gets me on this thread is that the obvious Helen haters all claim that she scared witless semi senile oldies for political reasons.

From what I gather the people united in the Grey power group are astute, politically savvy and intend on having something to say on how this country is run and making sure their rights are protected.

To paint them as easily scared senile old sweeties is just disingenuous and patronising.

Andrew,

If what you say is true than Helen Clark and Phil Goff are involved in War crimes and an illegal war of aggression.

Let me make myself clear: Based on the fact that it was scientifically impossible for three steel framed buildings to have collapsed in freefall (11, 10 and 6.5 sec) speed due to the impact of just two Airplanes and based on the fact that the military grade incendiary explosive Nano Thermite has been found in ample amounts in dust of all three buildings that collapse on 911 I am of the opinion that 19 young Arabs (some of whom are still alive and whose “leader” Mohamed Atta loved cocaine, booze and lapdances, in fact he lived with a stripper for two months while “training” in Venice) could not have brought the three buildings down.

And with that the whole reason for being in Afghanistan is moot because it was after all Osama bin Laden we entered Afghanistan for, remember?
Tim Ellis 54

18 September 2008 at 11:30 am

Risks depend on where troops are and how they are deployed. In previous wars NZ has had higher per capita death rates than other Commonwealth countries.

That isn’t true, r0b. Our last major commitment, in Vietnam, saw NZ lose 40 soldiers to Australia’s 436. In the Korean War, NZ lost 43 to Australia’s 339. We lost more people as a proportion to Australia during the First and Second world wars, when we were under British command, but not since.

[come on Tim, you can do better than haggle over numbers. 6, 60, 600, the first question is whether risking anyone’s life would have been worth it – Key says yes and that’s got to be a worry for Kiwis who oppose these kinds of interventions. SP[
Billy 55

18 September 2008 at 11:30 am

Ev,

Can we have one thread where you mention neither 911 nor depleted uranium? Try starting with a thread where you mention only one and work your down from there.
John Stevens 56

18 September 2008 at 11:31 am

How many NZ soldiers have died in non combat areas since 1999? Must be somewhere around the 5-8 mark, remember the Unimog accident etc?
Clark is a liar on this and she knows it. It is more relavant to compare to Australian deaths, not USA deaths.
Lies, lies and statistics.

[the question is not whether soldiers die but whether it would have been worth sending soldiers to kill and die in Iraq. Key still says yes. SP]
lukas 57

18 September 2008 at 11:38 am

Billy- thats like asking HC to hold all her ministers to the same standard… never going to happen
Matthew Pilott 58

18 September 2008 at 11:47 am

Tim obviously forgot Gallipoli. Because there’s clearly no way losses in a war wouldn’t be in exact proportion to the number of troops deployed. Right? It goes like a pretty bell-curve, with perfectly normal distribution.

At least we’ve all moved past the point of disputing whether people would have died because John Key is ambitious for the US and their oil dependency. Sad that we have to haggle on the numbers that would probably have died for Key’s ‘abmition’.

I think Clark’s number was high – instead of basing it upon a NZ comparison of US deaths per-capita, a look at the deaths based upon a probable deployed New Zealand force would have been more appropriate. I.e. US 150,000 troops and 4,000 dead. So if we sent 500 troops, fighting where America fought, an approximation would be 13 dead.

A lot of assumptions there – equal duties, equal risk, and so on. It could easily be far lower, or far higher. Casualties would certainly be well over 60 – as RedLogix pointed out death isn’t the only outcome.

Interestingly, a comment above stated that most deaths occurred after the conflict. Numerically that is true, because the ‘mission’ was ‘accomplished’ a bit prematurely. 4.13 deaths a day during the conflict, and around 2 a day afterwards.

http://icasualties.org/oif/

Ah, found it: Andrew “Now before you say that was because it was after the initial invasion force, the inital invasion was the safest time to be there.”

What was that about facts, buddy? Get ’em right.
gobsmacked 59

18 September 2008 at 11:55 am

What a scary, depressing debate. I suppose this is what happens when people live war through Hollywood and computer games.

Old “pro-war” argument: “We will send our soldiers to fight and kill and die and get maimed, because that’s what happens in wars, so just deal with it”.

Not very nice, but honest.

Modern “pro-war” argument: “We will send our soldiers to war, but nobody will get hurt, at least not in front of the cameras, it will be a nice war, and if anybody does die we’ll have lots of cliched Anzac Day-type coverage and and pretend that it’s all noble and has a great movie soundtrack.”

And then – obscenely – spin doctors will argue about casualty figures, knowing that they are mere bloodless numbers, a world away from the reality of the war.

John Key supported the war. The war is a crime against humanity. And any fucking chicken-hawks who support it should be on the front line. After all, if nobody would have died, they would be perfectly safe, wouldn’t they?

Don’t bother responding unless you’ve got a plane ticket to Baghdad, heroes. The occupation needs you, and you’ve told us how safe it is, so off you go.
Matthew Pilott 60

18 September 2008 at 11:58 am

Clark is a liar on this and she knows it.

Given that you, in making the statement, can’t even beging to attempt to articulate it, I can’t see that being the case.

It is more relavant to compare to Australian deaths, not USA deaths.

Ahh, it’s where America goes, we should go, not Australia.

Or are you telling us that you, John Stevens, would have been responsible for the internal deployment of NZ troops in Iraq, and that you know we’d be fighting where Australia was, and not the hotspots the US and UK were?

Lies, lies, and lies. Not even a statistic. Or an attempt at an argument.
jo zinny 61

18 September 2008 at 12:00 pm

To Bryan Spondre and his readers..

nice to see you confirming that US intervention in Iraq was, as you say, “the invasion”.

Democracies as I am sure you know, can be very vulnerable to popular figures.. indeed New Zealand fell under the Rob Muldoon spell several decades back..
rave 62

18 September 2008 at 12:01 pm

Well if the probability was that “up to…how many?..1,2,3…60” would have been killed had National deployed troops to Iraq, remembering that National would have been brown-nosing to recapture their lost ally, then that would have taken care of at at least Williamson, Key and Power and many of the rightwing warmongers who want NZ bristling with arms so “we pay our way”.

VTO: Of course if the arseholes fought their own wars there would be none.
r0b 63

18 September 2008 at 12:03 pm

That isn’t true, r0b.

I didn’t say all previous was Tim, or recent previous wars, though to be clear yes I should have said some previous wars.

Fact remains, as the case of Denmark shows, the risks of a country with troops in Iraq is difficult to predict. And comparing such risks to the risks of invading aliens from outer space, as you did, is to trivialise a life and death matter.
lprent 64

18 September 2008 at 12:10 pm

Andrew:

Yes we did send engineers as well as soldiers.

What a puzzling statement.

EME’s are soldiers first, engineers second. Just as all army medics like I was are soldiers first and medics second. If attacked then they’d defend. But they would not be doing active campaigning.

So all i was trying to say was it is disgusting that Helen used our brave troops as pawns in her political campaign of fear against John Key.

Negative, or dirty? you decide.

The thing that soldiers fear above all else are idiot politicians who put them in harms way for their own stupid political positions. It doesn’t matter if it is Lange with his idiotic ideas about going into Fiji in the 1980’s, or Key’s position on Iraq. Neither appeared to have a point in terms of NZ strategic position. There were no benefits in terms of the international multilaterism from the UN that we usually support.

I’d say that Helen was making a clear distinction between a politician who looked at the cost-benefits to NZ, and an idiot who wanted to do it because “everyone else was”.

Now people that talk the way you do about “brave troops” probably should do a course on the politicians bullshit compared to the reality in world war one. Using that kind of approach is not just dirty, it is also moronic because it ignores military history. It is the language of idiot aristrocrats and their braying minions. Damn I started to talk about talkback radio again.
Tim Ellis 65

18 September 2008 at 12:18 pm

Matthew said:

“Tim obviously forgot Gallipoli. Because there’s clearly no way losses in a war wouldn’t be in exact proportion to the number of troops deployed. Right? It goes like a pretty bell-curve, with perfectly normal distribution.”

I didn’t forget Gallipoli, Matthew. I conceded that NZ lost more troops in the First World War than other Commonwealth countries. I noted that we were under British command at that stage. We were basically cannon-fodder for the British army, both at Gallipoli and in Flanders.

In error, I did concede that NZ appears to have lost more troops in WW2 than other Commonwealth countries. In fact, as a proportion of troops deployed, we had fewer casualties during WW2 than Britain did.

It is also true that many countries who have deployed troops in Iraq have had no casualties in conflict. South Korea has 600 troops there, without a single casualty. Albania has 240 troops under US command, without a single casualty. Mongolia has 100 under Polish command, without a single casualty. Tonga has 55 without a casualty. Norway had 150 troops, without a single casualty. In fact, of the 40 countries that have deployed troops to Iraq, 32 have lost fewer troops than New Zealand has in Timor.

As for Helen Clark’s claim of 60 New Zealanders returning home in body bags, consider this. Of the the 40 countries deployed to Iraq since the invasion, only two countries have had more than 60 deaths.
bill brown 66

18 September 2008 at 12:20 pm

So Tim, how many NZ soldiers dead in Iraq would be OK for you then?
Pascal's bookie 67

18 September 2008 at 12:28 pm

Tim, stop masticating.

Which party showed better judgement about Iraq?

Why did the stupid party get it so wrong, and how can we trust that their judgement has improved?

Simple questions for a simple sophist.
lprent 68

18 September 2008 at 12:29 pm

Tim: It is hardly the point. Why should have we committed combat troops in an aggressive invasion with no point.

There was no point for NZ apart from brown-nosing George W Bush. All of the origional rationales for going into Iraq were just wrong, and were known to be wrong at the time. We’d have been sending troops into a war with no military point, no political objectives, and basically for no reason. Any deaths or risk of death would have been unacceptable.

I find it hard to understand why anyone rational would support John Key in his insistence that it would have been a good idea to follow the yankee republicians into Iraq
Tim Ellis 69

18 September 2008 at 12:32 pm

None, Bill, and if you had spent any time in the army then you wouldn’t dare use soldiers as political cannon fodder the way Helen Clark has.

There is a real issue about New Zealand’s involvement in Iraq, which Helen Clark is deliberately blurring. New Zealand was involved in reconstruction. New Zealand could have committed further troops, which would have led to an increased risk to those soldiers. Would John Key have done so? Well, he said a few years ago that he might, but he didn’t have any professional military advisers at the time. My instinct is that the advice he would have received, had he been PM, from Foreign Affairs and Defence advisers would have been not to commit troops to Iraq. We were already stretched to capacity in Afghanistan and Timor. Foreign Affairs would have advised him, in response to the US request for troops, to say: “We support you in your efforts. We’re already committed in Afghanistan and Timor. We will send reconstruction troops after the invasion is over.”

We don’t know what decision John Key would have actually made. Would a Labour Prime Minister have committed troops to Korea? Or Vietnam? Or to Bosnia? It’s pointless to speculate on that.

What is likely is that John Key would not have criticised the US publicly the way Helen Clark did. She did that, no doubt, because she believed what she was saying. But there was a considerable domestic cost to criticising the US, in terms of our chances of gaining a free trade agreement with the US.

In my view, the best outcome would have been to make no more military commitment than we did, refuse to criticise the US in the way Helen Clark did, and achieve a free trade agreement. Would John Key have achieved this? Possibly. It wouldn’t have made him the darling of the Left, but the outcomes for New Zealand would have been much better than what we got.

Helen Clark had no basis for making the claim of 60 deaths in Iraq under John Key, except for scare-mongering vulnerable elderly voters. That is dirty campaigning.
gobsmacked 70

18 September 2008 at 12:32 pm

FFS. This isn’t hard.

1) You support the invasion and are prepared to inflict and accept casualties – even be one yourself.

or

2) You don’t support the invasion.

Those are the two positions on this issue. Not:

You support the invasion, but just as long as nobody on your side dies, because that would be like, all gross and icky, and if it did happen you would bring everybody home.
higherstandard 71

18 September 2008 at 12:35 pm

Rather bizarre thread… the PM was just understandably doing some politicing and it all seems to have caused a bit of a storm in a teacup.

All the theorising and second guessing is as useful as trying to imagine what would have happened if the USA hadn’t gone into Iraq – honestly who really knows ?
higherstandard 72

18 September 2008 at 12:37 pm

Lynn

Hasn’t the government just “brown-nosed” W over the nuclear issue with India ?

[just because Farrar said it doesn’t make it so. NZ, Ireland, and Austria formed a core group that would have blocked the US-India nuke deal without getting a list of measures as safeguards to insure the nuke material wouldn’t go to the military program. We got most of our conditions met and dropped our opposition to the deal – politics, especially diplomacy, is the art of the possible, and we did damn well in this instance. SP]
r0b 73

18 September 2008 at 12:39 pm

None, Bill

Good. Labour achieved this, National would probably not.

and if you had spent any time in the army then you wouldn’t dare use soldiers as political cannon fodder the way Helen Clark has.

Because it’s better to use them as real cannon fodder? Oh Please. As Lynn commented above “The thing that soldiers fear above all else are idiot politicians who put them in harms way for their own stupid political positions”.
travellerev 74

18 September 2008 at 12:42 pm

Billy,

50.000 first responders (you know the heroes who went to that pile everyday) are dying as a result of the buildings collapsing into dust and them breathing the dust in 20.000 New Yorkers are dying because of the same. The survivors and widows and families of people who died in those towers want a new and independent investigation.

1.2 million or more Iraqis have died as a result of the events and we don’t even know how many Afghanis have died. New Zealand has troops in Afghanistan who probably would much rather be home because we were going in to “catch” Osama bin Laden whose family has profiteered hugely from the wars byt the way. Around the world including NZ laws have been implemented that curb our freedoms in the name of fighting terror. So if it is all the same to you I will keep on talking about it and to get back to the thread and it’s relevance: According to the US we need to send many more soldiers to Afghanistan. Not to help build up the country but to kill more “Taliban” and “al Qaeda”.

By the way did you know that the CIA paid Mujahedeen to train as guerrilla’s and that it was the CIA who paid for the Afghani and Pakistani Madrassas (Islamic fundamentalist schools) and that from those Mujahedeen a data base was compiled (Al Qaeda means “the base”) of no more than some 500 names who provoked the Russians to attack Afghanistan in order to get the Russians embroiled in a long protracted unwinnable war. A bit like the US and the Coalition of the w(k)illing is involved in now.

If we have been lied to in order to get us to go to war than I want to know about it.

Oh one last titillating little nugget: the bin Laden family is part of the Carlyle group George W. Bush is very good friends with the bin Laden family. In fact he was in the white house while his son was in Florida on the night preceding the events of 911. it is the annual Carlyle investors meeting. Guess who he had dinner with the night before 911; With none other than the guest off honour Safiq bin Laden. Osama’s brother. The Carlyle group is one of the biggest profiteers of both the Afghan and Iraq war.

Billy do you still think that ordinary New Zealanders should be risking their lives in Afghanistan for big oil and the military industrial complex?
travellerev 75

18 September 2008 at 12:46 pm

Lucas,

yawn
Steve Pierson 76

18 September 2008 at 12:50 pm

hs. there will be decisions like the decision whether to join the invasion of Iraq to be made in the future as well.. Key’s position on Iraq indicates how we can expect him to behave in the future, just as Clark’s opposition to the Vietnam war presaged her opposition to Iraq.
lprent 77

18 September 2008 at 12:51 pm

hs: I’m still not sure exactly what went on, indeed I’m having problems understanding exactly what are the issues (lack of time).

The best stuff I’ve read has been at http://addingnoughts.blogspot.com/ and I’m planning to go back there for a closer look.

So far it looks to me like the US was going to get its way anyway, and we and the other countries agreed on the basis that there were better safeguards (but I could be wrong). I’d point out that I’m highly pragmatic – not green or act supporter (too doctrinaire) or a talkbacker (too ignorant). I don’t make opinions without getting some feel about the facts.

BTW: the hire car I’m driving seems to only have talkback radio stations. It is like diving into a world of make-believe where people make up ‘facts’ on the fly based on how good they sound. Urgghhhh…
higherstandard 78

18 September 2008 at 12:56 pm

“BTW: the hire car I’m driving seems to only have talkback radio stations. It is like diving into a world of make-believe where people make up â€˜facts’ on the fly based on how good they sound. Urgghhhh ”

Yeech .. sounds like a combination of parliamentary question time and a Privileges committee hearing !
vto 79

18 September 2008 at 1:00 pm

like clark making up her number of 60 dead. maybe she has been spending too much time listening to talkback herself.
higherstandard 80

18 September 2008 at 1:06 pm

SP

Spin it any way you like – there is nothing to stop India from utilising the Uranium to make more nuclear weapons.

According to the NY Times we along with a few other countries were leaned on quite heavily.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/07/world/asia/07india.html?_r=1&em&oref=slogin

I suspect the NZ Greens have a very different viewpoint to you and Labour and National on this one.
travellerev 81

18 September 2008 at 1:09 pm

Oh and Billy,

I forgot all those patriotic American kids that joined after 911 and died and got hurt and are now killing themselves at a rate of some 18 a day because they can’t live with themselves any more after three, four or five gruelling tours, killing Iraqis and getting killed by road side bombs.

And the hundreds of thousands of those men and women who came back with debilitating diseases caused by DEPLETED URANIUM.

All because of 911

In fact one of the brave young men who worked on “Loose chance” had done tours in Afghanistan and two in Iraq. I reckon he felt pretty pissed off when he started looking properly at all the video material.

You should try it yourself one time.
Matthew Pilott 82

18 September 2008 at 1:41 pm

Tim, those nice warm fuzzy guesses of yours are completely worthless, I’m afraid. Here’s an equally (more in my books) likely scenario:

My instinct is that the advice he would have received, had he been PM, from Foreign Affairs and Defence advisers would have been not to commit troops to Iraq. We were already stretched to capacity in Afghanistan and Timor. Foreign Affairs would have advised him, in response to the US request for troops, to say: “We support you in your efforts. We’re already committed in Afghanistan and Timor. We will send reconstruction troops after the invasion is over.’

Key would have replied that where America goes, we go, and that we aren’t about to be MIA in Iraq. He would have withdrawn our peacekeeping forces from East Timor, and our PRT from Afghanistan, and sent them, plus everyone else he could muster, to Iraq.

“As for Helen Clark’s claim of 60 New Zealanders returning home in body bags, consider this. Of the the 40 countries deployed to Iraq since the invasion, only two countries have had more than 60 deaths.”

Yes, Tim, and it’s because we were not fighting there that we didn’t have the chance to be one of them. I already said this:

“I think Clark’s number was high – instead of basing it upon a NZ comparison of US deaths per-capita, a look at the deaths based upon a probable deployed New Zealand force would have been more appropriate. I.e. US 150,000 troops and 4,000 dead. So if we sent 500 troops, fighting where America fought, an approximation would be 13 dead.”

Nice of you to reiterate Clark’s claim, after I had also disputed it. Does 13 dead sound like enough to support Key being ambitious to support US depencence on oil? I’ve already stated it’s sad we’re haggling over the numbers.

“None, Bill, and if you had spent any time in the army then you wouldn’t dare use soldiers as political cannon fodder the way Helen Clark has.”

How so? Looks to me like she’s refrained from doing so, unlike Key, whou would have done so in order to suck up to the US. You’ve got it right backwards.
higherstandard 83

18 September 2008 at 1:57 pm

MP

In the what if games that are being played why do you think Key would have ignored the advice from foreign affairs and defense ?
lprent 84

18 September 2008 at 2:01 pm

vto: Granny herald in one of the political columns checked her numbers. They said on the basis that she was using (relative to the US troops casualties) that she was wrong. It should have been 55 rather than 60.

Still far too high for a war that has no point.

captcha: SAILS Siberia
JK could do with a little tour… He likes his holidays
Pascal's bookie 85

18 September 2008 at 2:02 pm

HS, do you remember that article a while back with Brash having a wee cry to a journo? He said one of his biggest regrets was not standing up enough for his pacifist beliefs and opposing the Iraq war?

Why didn’t he? There’s your answer.
Matthew Pilott 86

18 September 2008 at 2:02 pm

It wasn’t ignoring it – according to Tim’s hypothetical advice he would realise that we can’t be in all three theatres (Iraq, East Timor and Afghanistan) and Iraq is the more important one. Can’t be MIA, remember. Where America goes, we’d go.

What do you think caused the regression in Afghanistan?
lprent 87

18 September 2008 at 2:08 pm

hs: I miss the national programme. It often seems inane when you’re listening to some obscure author waffling about their latest book. But when you hear the alternatives.

Oh well I stop driving for 2 weeks after friday, and my car will be back at the end.
vto 88

18 September 2008 at 2:15 pm

Iprent, I agree that the Iraq war is wrong on many many fronts, but Clark has just acted like exactly the typical politician – you know, the type that the people know is just making bullshit up to grab a headline. Does nix for the rep of her or any politician.

Anyways, the Press did a comparison based on US troops employed and said on the basis og 60 dead we would have to have sent 15,000 troops! ha ha, we dont even have anything like that number in total.

Why do politicians keep taking the public for fools? Is it because the public take the politicians for fools?

[that’s a totally dishonest comparison that Espiner makes.. The US has cycled a million people through Iraq (actually far fewer, but most of them more than once), it has never had a million there at any one time, most of the time it has had about 100,000. Likewise any NZ deployment would have cycled thousands of troops through but only a smaller number there at any one time. And once again, implicit in what you’re saying vto is that you believe casualties would have been lower and that would have been ok,.. how many dead would have been ok by you? SP]
higherstandard 89

18 September 2008 at 2:15 pm

MP

That’s one alternative – the other alternative is that after receiving that advice from foreign affairs and defence he would have taken it.
Matthew Pilott 90

18 September 2008 at 2:21 pm

Yes HS, that is a possilibility. I was more pointing out that the nice warm fuzzy picture Tim was trying to paint of Key could very well be a figment of his imagination, and that I could paint a nasty picture that is equally plausible. Which makes his comment that there was no basis for Helen’s comment wrong – you can’t say someone else is lying when you’ve made the number of warm fuzzy suppositions Tim had.

And what about the next time the US launches an immoral war for oil supply?

I hope we’re MIA again, but can’t see in under National.
Nomad 91

18 September 2008 at 2:47 pm

Anyways, the Press did a comparison based on US troops employed and said on the basis og 60 dead we would have to have sent 15,000 troops!

How did they get to that?

Total Foreign Troop levels in Iraq = about 180,000

Total casualties = about 5,000

Gives a casualty rate = about 3%

3% of 15,000 is 450.

Someone cannot do some basic arithmetic here.
vto 92

18 September 2008 at 3:00 pm

oh nomad, don’t ask me. i just mindlessly believe and repeat everything i read and hear.
Matthew Pilott 93

18 September 2008 at 3:01 pm

Nomad – Clark’s estimates were based upon a per capita sum. The main flaw being that we don’t have the same number, per capita, in the armed forces as the US. The sums from The Press were based upon the US casualty rate I believe – 4,000 from about 150,000.

Those sums you’ve put forward are interesting though. It would mean NZ would have to deploy 2000 troops to make Clark’s observation accurate. Still pretty high, but not as wildly inaccurate as some would believe.
Tim Ellis 94

18 September 2008 at 3:32 pm

Nomad, those numbers are the total deployed at any one time. Far more than 180,000 people have been deployed to Iraq over that time.

Matthew, let’s break it down. The reality is that when the PM has these requests, they then look at their military options. Let’s say that John Key is the Prime Minister, it is 2003, and George Bush rings him up asking if he can commit troops to Iraq.

He then goes to his Defence Chiefs, and says: “George W wants us to make a contribution. Give me some options.”

His Defence advisors put forward several options:

1. Do nothing. Refuse to commit assistance of any kind, either as part of the coalition of the willing, or the later multinational force.

2. Do nothing now. Remain open to the possibility of committing engineers at a later point as part of a multinational force. Point out our current commitments under UN mandate in Afghanistan and Timor.

3. Commit to deploying committing engineers at a later point as part of a multinational force. Point out our current commitments under UN mandate in Afghanistan and Timor. (The Clark option).

4. Commit to removing the special forces unit from Afghanistan, and redeploying it in Iraq, as well as engineers for reconstruction later. Moving special forces from one theatre to another, doesn’t create greater risk for those soldiers. It just moves the geography. A clear commitment of NZ support to the US on the Iraqi front, but removes its commitment in Afghanistan, to no net benefit to the US. I very much doubt Key would have taken this option. Had he done so, there was a possible risk of an extra five soldiers killed in action, at the absolute maximum. Given they were deployed in a similar threat situation in Afghanistan throughout this time, I think to say even five body bags is stretching credibility.

5. Redeploy an infantry batallion from Timor to Iraq. 400 soldiers. An enormous gesture of support to the US. Yet that leaves Timor abandoned. You say John Key could have done that. I agree, it was possible. Yet Timor has been the biggest commitment New Zealand defence forces have made to any conflict since Vietnam. It is in our sphere of influence. Not even Australia pared back its Timor commitment to put forces into Iraq. Had John Key chosen this option, then maybe ten of them might have been at risk, at the absolute maximum, although even this would have been a far greater fatality rate than any of the other forces deployed by other nations in Iraq.

6. Commit far more than an infantry batallion to Iraq. Make it our single defence policy goal. Send the entire army and the air force. Put our frigates in the Persian Gulf to support them. If Key had done that, then we might see thirty fatalities.

Next, separate from the deployment options, had Key been Prime Minister, he would have had several foreign policy options:

a: Condemn US military action in Iraq. Insult George Bush, and pledge support to Saddam Hussein.

b: Criticise US military action. Refuse to pledge support to Hussein. Express concern on post-invasion reconstruction (The Clark option).

c: Remain neutral on US military action. Express concern about post-invasion reconstruction.

d: Publicly support the US invasion (the Blair/Howard option).

That latter set of foreign policy options are about gestures and signals. There is little doubt that Australia’s free trade agreement with the US was significantly advanced by taking option (d). There’s also little doubt that New Zealand’s free trade prospects with the US were hindered because Helen Clark took option (b).

If John Key had been Prime Minister, it is clear he would have taken foreign policy options (c) or (d). If he had taken the former, then New Zealand would have been in a neutral position on free trade negotiations. If he had taken option (d), then we would have been in a positive position.

Neither of those options involved a threat to New Zealand soldiers in Iraq. They could have been made totally independently of troop commitments.

Helen Clark pulled her numbers out of nowhere. She chose to do it through scare-mongering. Her much-lauded judgement, in my view, was not flawless over the Iraq War. It cost us a free trade agreement. It meant no loss of soldiers’ lives, but I think there was a perfectly feasible approach to limit risks to New Zealand servicemen, as well as achieving foreign policy and trade outcomes.
Matthew Pilott 95

18 September 2008 at 4:43 pm

So you have to ask yourself, Tim, what would Key have done, what would his preferred option be? I’d say somewhere between 5 and 6. Missing in Action is a very strong statement. It’s virtually saying we’re abandoning our allies, and has implications of desertion.

b: Criticise US military action. Refuse to pledge support to Hussein. Express concern on post-invasion reconstruction (The Clark option).

What’s this about Clark refusing to pledge support to Hussein? I’m not aware that she, or New Zealand was asked to do so.

Your further analysis of this completely ignores the negative consequences of (c) or (d). We are not considered part of the ‘coalition of the willing’. We all know what that means. Australia recently arrested an ‘Islamic terror cell’. Over-hyped perhaps, I don’t know the details, but there were also the Kuta Beach bombings, even though they were prior to Iraq. I bet a lot of people sleep a little bit easier knowing that we’re not considered a target, here or abroad.

You’re over-stating the effect of Clark’s single comment that the war wouldn’t have happened if Gore won the election. Is there something else to which you refer when you mention that Clark criticised US action in Iraq? It was not a major gaffe (refreshingly honest to some, here and abroad). Our relations with the US have significantly improved over the last 9 years; it is fatuous to claim one comment cost us an FTA with the US.

An FTA isn’t based upon who said what and to whom, it’s pretty far-fetched to think it would have had any real effect.

New Zealand’s positive contribution to stability in the Pacific, willingness to work with the US where our goals are mutual (i.e. reconstruction in Iraq), improved defence ties and usefully independent foreign policy under Labour will have had a far greater bearing that a single comment from Clark, or a refusal to send in front-line combat troops.

“Helen Clark pulled her numbers out of nowhere. She chose to do it through scare-mongering. ”

Totally false. She used a per-capita calculation. You must know that, must have read that. As I have said above, it was not the best way to work out the cost of defending the US’ access to foreign oil. Nor is it impossible, with a large contribution.

That you think this is primarily about foreign policy and trade outcomes says much. I disagree even on that though. Our foreign policy has not been affected negatively, and our various contributions have been welcomed over the last 5 years. It will take a lot more to get an FTA with the US, that much is clear. Let’s not forget Australia is still part of ANZUS…
Draco T Bastard 96

18 September 2008 at 4:51 pm

Her much-lauded judgement, in my view, was not flawless over the Iraq War. It cost us a free trade agreement.

I prefer it having cost us a FTA with the US than having cost our morality for a FTA with the US. Some things shouldn’t be up for sale to the highest bidder.
randal 97

18 September 2008 at 4:58 pm

somehow johhny boy doesnt look like the type to volunteer himself!
Billy 98

18 September 2008 at 5:39 pm

Billy do you still think that ordinary New Zealanders should be risking their lives in Afghanistan for big oil and the military industrial complex?

I just asked you to stop banging on quite so much about your pet kooky theories. They do not have universal application to any topic we may want to discuss.

I did not say anything about New Zealanders risking their lives. You have made an assumption about me based on your prejudices. Now that’s not very lefty of you, is it?
Tim Ellis 99

18 September 2008 at 5:54 pm

Matthew said:

What’s this about Clark refusing to pledge support to Hussein? I’m not aware that she, or New Zealand was asked to do so.

No, perhaps I wasn’t as clear as I could have been. I used that point to differentiate between options (1) and (2). My point is that there was a scale of options for the Prime Minister to take. Helen Clark did not take the most extreme option. There are a range of measures Helen Clark could have taken, which are probably still in option (1), such as expelling the US ambassador, recalling the New Zealand ambassador, putting in place trade embargoes, ceasing diplomatic relations, declaring war on the US.

I don’t like to make assumptions about what other people think, Matthew, but I think we’ve agreed that there were a range of military options available to the Prime Minister in 2003. We can assume that the advice John Key would have received from officials would have been the same that Helen Clark did receive.

Even if there was a strong political will for New Zealand involvement in Iraq, the viable military options were few: we were already deployed heavily in Timor, our largest involvement in 35 years, and in Afghanistan. We simply couldn’t send a batallion to Iraq. Would John Key have changed military priorities so drastically to do so? I don’t think so.

Could we have sent special forces to Iraq, by redeploying them from Afghanistan? Possibly, but that wouldn’t have been a net benefit to the US. Would John Key have done that? Possibly, as a gesture, but it would not have increased the risk of New Zealand forces, because it simply would have moved their activities from one place to another. I believe John Key’s real military options remained somewhere between points (3) and (4).

Next, when John Key made those statements, he was not the leader of the National Party. He didn’t have the advisers that Helen Clark had. From memory he was the associate Finance spokesman. You can get away with a lot more hyperbole as a backbench opposition MP about what the country should be doing, than you can as Prime Minister when you’re actually in a position to do it. In the mid-90s Phil Goff was calling on New Zealand to cease diplomatic relations with both Indonesia and France. He was the Foreign Affairs spokesperson at the time. The diplomatic consequences of saying those things as an opposition MP are far less serious than if you’re the PM.

In retrospect, I think John Key was wrong to say that we should have committed substantially more troops to Iraq than we did. We just didn’t have the military capacity to do it without drastically changing our military priorities. Had John Key been the Prime Minister at the time, with the advisers around him, and the ability to actually carry things out, I very much doubt he would have made the same claim.

Key’s criticism of Helen Clark’s decision to criticise the US for the invasion was a valid point. You say you don’t think it cost us a trade deal with the US. Maybe it didn’t. It certainly didn’t help improve relations with Washington. In my view, it had a negative impact on those prospects.

I also disagree that Helen Clark did not criticise the US-led invasion. From memory, it was not just a one-off statement about Al Gore’s decision, had he been President. It was quite consistent. For example, in 2003, on the eve of the invasion, Clark said to Parliament

It is a matter of profound regret to us that some of our closest friends have chosen to stand outside the Security Council at this point.

A new and dangerous precedent is being set. It may be possible to justify one’s friends taking such action, but where then is our moral authority when other nations use the precedent which is being set?
randal 100

18 September 2008 at 5:59 pm

is keys still getting hysterical about it. I suppose the thought of actually standing up for your beliefs has unhinged the man?
the sprout 101

18 September 2008 at 6:07 pm

well randal, it would be a lot for a man of his character to deal with.
vto 102

18 September 2008 at 6:26 pm

Mr Pierson, way back up there you asked me how many dead would be a suitable number. I never said or even intimated any such number would be acceptable. All of my points in this thread have been about Clark’s deceiving nature in this matter over numbers. Not about the actual war.

She was right not to go in with the US. She is not right to deceive in her comment yesterday to Grey Power.

[lprent: Chris Trotter popped up the calc http://www.policy.net.nz/blog/?p=808

(The calculation is very simple BTW: US population of 305,149,000 divided by 4,159 US soldiers KIA = 1 fatality for every 73,371 Americans; NZ population of 4,276,100 divided by 73,371= 58 NZ soldiers KIA.)

So she didn’t. You can argue with the factors in the calculation but there was a basis for the value. I wouldn’t called that deceitful. ]
travellerev 103

18 September 2008 at 6:29 pm

Billy,

you are speaking in the royal “we”.
Every day my blog grows in unique visitors. Apparently there are a lot of people who do want to learn more about what happened on that day.

The fact that you call scientific evidence kooky theories without informing yourself says more about you than about me.

I’m sure you don’t go to the links that discredit John Key as a liar and an opportunist either.

This thread is about war and about whether we should be involved or not. Based on my reality I would have to say both wars are illegal, based on lies and to stay in them is a war crime. In fact it is the ultimate war crime; An unprovoked war of aggression.

You may not like what I’m writing but it is pertinent to the topic. My reality is what it is. I personally think you are a dimwit with a very poor grasp of reality but I don’t tell you to shut up with your trolling comments and your typical pakeha middle class bloke remarks. Irritating, ignorant and stupid though they may seem to me.
Billy 104

18 September 2008 at 6:36 pm

My reality is what it is.

Apparently so.
gobsmacked 105

18 September 2008 at 6:41 pm

This was the view of the National Party, as expressed in the Parliamentary debate on Iraq, on the eve of war (March 18, 2003). No National MP dissented, in Parliament or outside.

Defence spokesman Wayne Mapp:

“Today I say this: to support the action led by the United States and Britain is the right course for New Zealand. We do so in National because, in the first instance, that ensures that international law is upheld, even when the United Nations fails to act. But in the second instance, our own interests should tell us to support our traditional friends and allies. Those relationships matter most on the tough issues, and this is assuredly one of the toughest of them all. Our position as a nation will be remembered long after Iraq has a new Government, and we will be judged accordingly.

I conclude by saying that there are times in politics and in the life of a nation when clear decisions have to be made. This is one of those times. Our Government did have the opportunity â€” which it did not take â€” to make the right decision, in which enforcing international law would have coincided with defending our national interests. That is the path of failure.” (Hansard)

(emphasis added)

National supported the invasion. John Key supported the invasion. The real falsehood is not Clark’s hypothetical numbers, but National’s blatant rewriting of history.
Tim Ellis 106

18 September 2008 at 6:46 pm

Gobsmacked, you have highlighted exactly what I’ve said. National did support the US. I haven’t read the Hansard, but there’s nothing in the quote you’ve given us that says National formally committed large numbers of troops to Iraq. They were simply responding to Helen Clark’s opposition to the invasion.

This debate is about how accurate Helen Clark’s claim yesterday, of 60 soldiers returning to New Zealand in body bags. There is nothing I have seen that remotely justifies such an hysterical claim.
travellerev 107

18 September 2008 at 7:09 pm

Billy,

Yep, your typical pakeha middle class male ignoramus.
vto 108

18 September 2008 at 7:30 pm

travellerev, your last comment exposes you as a complete and utter bigot.

i am pakeha (mostly), middle class, male, and proud. so get fucked.
Pascal's bookie 109

18 September 2008 at 8:46 pm

No Tim, The debate remains around judgment, and none of your sophistry changes that.

It’s kind of hilarious though, that you think that our not joining in, and our mild criticisms, were a lost opportunity on the trade front. The war wasn’t about us Tim, and it wasn’t a negotiating tactic on the US’ part. There were other issues involved.

The fact that the whole WMD thing and the international law business, and the Bush doctrine of preventative war, the neocon theories about transforming the ME through democratic reform via enhanced interrogation and high explosive, and a myriad of other considerations pay absolutely no role in your analysis, not a skerrick, nary a sentence, tells me all I need to know about your judgment on the matter.

Jesus wept mate. Helen got it wrong because we didn’t get a trade deal, which you admit anyway was unlikely. Is that it?

You say that the National party wouldn’t have said what they said if they knew better. It wasn’t a bloody secret that we had troops in those other places Tim. It’s not hard to work out what we would have needed to do to fill the promises the Nat’s were making. But they made them anyway. So unless you are saying that they were just politicising the situation for domestic reasons, and that they didn’t really mean it, then that dog won’t hunt.

You quote Clark thus:

It is a matter of profound regret to us that some of our closest friends have chosen to stand outside the Security Council at this point.

A new and dangerous precedent is being set. It may be possible to justify one’s friends taking such action, but where then is our moral authority when other nations use the precedent which is being set?

It’s a good quote. Where do you stand on it’s content Tim? Not the sophistry. Not the domestic politics of it. Not the bloody meagre effect on our non existent free trade negotiations with the US. The content of what Clark said. Agree or disagree?
Steve Withers 110

18 September 2008 at 9:51 pm

This is my primary reason for being utterly unable to vote for the National party.

1. They swallowed Bush’s lies whole.

2. They kept them down.

3. They wanted to whore the lives of Kiwis in Iraq for a possible FTA with the USA….as Wayne Mapp and Simon Power made VERY clear when the PM said we weren’t going to join Bush’s crony capitalist Mid-east gang-bang.

Those two are still on National’s front bench.

They are still the same party. They haven’t changed. Your kids could die so they can better trade arrangements.

Against all the petty smears National throws at Labour, nothing comes close to being as monstrous as the National Party’s actions with respect to Iraq.

It’s laughable watching National try to play the victim in the “dirty campaign” pantomime. They have been smearing Clark about her sexuality, her marriage and every other thing since 2002 non-stop.
dave 111

19 September 2008 at 4:16 am

[lprent: dave (previously known as max) we dislike trolling behavior, attempts to incite flamewars and attacks on the site – you have just done all three. Apart from that people take their chances with other commentators.

This is an attempt to run a re-litigation style flame. It is a classic flamewar starter technique and it wastes my bandwidth. Oh we are not ‘labour’, we support the general labour movement (read the About). That is just a smear that Whale and other fools like to put around because they are incapable of participating in discussion here. It is a excuse and a figleaf for their lack of debating abilities.

You are now banned for a week. Argue and I’ll happily increase it and I like increasing it rapidly.

For the benefit of anyone who’d like to know, the moron repeated his entire previous comment stream. Obviously couldn’t find anything new in that tiny mind to write about. ]
T-rex 112

19 September 2008 at 6:23 am

Dear. Sweet. Christ.

1) Clarks numbers: It is beyond contestation that the METHODOLOGY was sh*t. No one with a vague grasp of… well… anything really, can debate that. Calling her desperately misleading and disingenious is just basic mudslinging though – do you really think she came up with them herself? Late at night in the office calculating away? Don’t be ridiculous.

You can take it as a given that someone, quite rightly, decided it would be good to draw attention to the fact that Key supported the iraq invasion (as distinct from the subsequent UN sanctioned intervention) on account of how it provides damning evidence of his total failure to grasp the important elements of the situation. In highlighting the numerous follies of Keys would-have-been decision, someone (may well even have been Clark) said “hey, how many soliders might we have lost if we HAD gone for it?”. So someone who should never have been left anywhere near a calculator went away and performed some fundamentally flawed maths, and came up with 60 or whatever.

Who the F*CK cares? Some people probably would have died, and whether it is 60 or 6 or ZERO makes no damn difference to the folly of the decision. It just helps give an immediately personal sense of the possible tragedy, which DOES help when trying to gauge the magnitude of something that happened on the other side of the earth.

All of the debate over how best to calculate the number of likely deaths is essentially just a distraction from the fact that…

2) KEY SUPPORTED THE WAR, AND BY IMPLICATION THE INTENT OF THE WAR, AND WANTED NZ TROOPS IN THE THICK OF IT.

Unless someone wants to argue that he didn’t support the intent of the war, but was supporting the war anyway because he has no scruples or standards and didn’t really care whether it was right or wrong because he just wanted in on the old boys club.

If being involved in the war was right, it would have been right even if we’d lost 100 soldiers (as was illustrated in WW2). If it was wrong, it would be wrong even if we’d lost no soldiers.

It is safe to say it’s wrong considering it was:
1) Not sanctioned by the UN
2) Based on flaky evidence that later proved to be complete fabrication
3) Undertaken against the advice of even top ranking US generals.
4) Lead to hundreds of thousands of deaths, expected to total in the millions by the time externalities are completed

—

The wannabe sidekick who would be our Prime Minister thought it was a good idea anyway.
Not because of moral imperatives, global security, likelyhood of a net benefit for the countries involved, or ANY of the REAL reasons a country should go to war.
Just because he wanted to be best-friends-forever with the USA and, to a lesser extent, the UK. He would effectively have sacrificed our autonomy on the basis of THAT.
I can just imagine him in the principals office after school.

Principal: Ok John, beating up Danny Parker doesn’t seem like the kind of thing a smiling young man such as yourself would be into – what’s going on? What’d he do to make you jump in with the other guys like that?

JK: His name was Danny? Interesting. Well anyway, he bought some lollies at the canteen and wouldn’t give any to Barry Whitmore, because Barry Whitmore beat him up LAST week, so Barry Whitmore and Andrew Lowell decided to beat him up to teach him a lesson, and Andrew Lowell’s dad has a REALLY nice boat and so I thought maybe if I helped then Andrew would invite me on it at Christmas. So, you see, I didn’t want to but really I had to!

—

That’s all that matters.
Key would have got in a fight for no real reason other than he wanted to be friends with the instigator. That makes him a morally bankrupt coward.

I IMPLORE you to stop debating Clarks numbers. Lets accept the methodology that delivered them sucked and move on.
Considering the flawed reasoning in some of the above “corrections” I don’t think it’s a good thing to dwell on. It’s what happens when you give a calculator and some basic data to someone who understands neither the problem nor statistical analysis and demand that they produce an answer. I see it at least twice a week in mainstream news and have just got over it.
T-rex 113

19 September 2008 at 6:28 am

Matt: “An FTA isn’t based upon who said what and to whom,”

Ironically, however, that’s basically how National hope to get one. “Please pretty please give us an FTA, it won’t cost you very much and we’ll be your best friends and it’ll make everyone else think you’re easy going and cool”.

Tim: You’re presenting the fact that it might have cost us an FTA as an argument against. I’d say;
1) So what? If that’s the case, it’s a price I’ll gladly pay – anything else is bloody money (or blood deferred-expense if you prefer).
2) You really think so? We weren’t going to get an FTA before the end of 2008 anyway, and it’s very possible Obama will be the next president. Black guy, talks well… opposed the Iraq War.

Frankly, it makes me sad that you don’t feel pride when you read Clarks comments to parliament on the eve of the invasion. I think she was spot on.
T-rex 114

19 September 2008 at 6:37 am

Oh, and finally (again – Tim)
“My instinct is that the advice he would have received, had he been PM, from Foreign Affairs and Defence advisers would have been not to commit troops to Iraq. We were already stretched to capacity in Afghanistan and Timor.”

That is, again, totally irrelevant. Desire to go to war and ability to go to war may lead to totally different outcomes, but the only one that’s relevant in the context of assessing fitness to govern is desire.

Surely it doesn’t bring you any comfort that we might not have gone anyway because we were committed elsewhere? I mean is that what you’re banking on – that we’ll be so heavily committed elsewhere that the ambitions (heheh) resulting from Keys incompetence and bad judgement will go unrealised? Maybe Labour should commit to UN sanctioned missions throughout Africa over the next 3 years in advance just in case…

And FINALLY – Vto. With you 100%.
travellerev 115

19 September 2008 at 7:47 am

vto and T-rex,

I count you among the same typical pakeha middle class blokes as Billy so like wise with the “get fucked” (you wish probably) and as far as bigoted is concerned I think you guys and Billy of course invented it. Close minded, ignorant and firmly embedded in the white male supremacy paradigm. LOL.

Oh, and as far as the FTA is concerned, why would you want a FTA with a bankrupt country?

Perhaps Helen Clark knew something when she decided to go with China.

And hey T-rex,

did you know that thermal expansion of one beam in a building reinforced twice to withstand a nuclear blast can bring it down into its own footprint in 6.5 seconds according to NIST?

Yep, a little office fire, a little thermal expansion of one big fat steel beam and gabamba gone, 47 floors of steel reinforced concrete turns into powder in just 6.5 seconds.

Completely new phenomenon. NIST just found it; thermal expansion. Awesome eh?

This is of course the same NIST involved in the development of a military demolition explosive called Nano-thermite prior to 2001.

But no, no, no don’t tell me there might be a slight conflict of interest there.

NIST is a sacred, all good institute which will always deliver an impartial scientific judgement even though they are a government institute and that government by your own standards is a corrupt, lying, warmongering bunch of thugs, hell bent on getting control over the oil fields in the middle east.

NIST would never give in to their thuggish murdering scum bosses.

Mate, you believe that you’ll believe anything and I have a couple of bridges you might want to buy.
travellerev 116

19 September 2008 at 7:51 am

LOL
higherstandard 117

19 September 2008 at 8:27 am

Eve if there’s someone who’ll believe anything it’s your fine self tulip.

Too many of those cakes in Amsterdam methinks.
travellerev 118

19 September 2008 at 8:48 am

HS,

Yep. Another pakeha middle class closed minded bloke firmly embedded in the white supremacy paradigm. Sleep on mate. Oh no, make that dream on and let’s hope it doesn’t turn into a nightmare, what with the Western worlds Finance collapsing around your tender sunburn prone ears, eh?

I wear the name Tulip with immense pride coming from thicko’s like you and just about the only people who smoke dope or eat funny cakes are tourists didn’t you know?
higherstandard 119

19 September 2008 at 9:07 am

Yes we’re all white middle class supremacists quite right.

Have a nice day dear.
travellerev 120

19 September 2008 at 9:23 am

HS,

Let me narrow that down to Anglo-Saxon supremacist.
Like in the Anglo-Saxon western world were the white male descendants of the mongrel nation England think that a world ruled by them is the only world worth living in and everybody else is there to serve the big Anglo-Saxon empire and if they don’t you just bomb the shit out of them and call it “democratising” and “liberating”. Moron.
randal 121

19 September 2008 at 9:23 am

tell me hs if you would be the first to go?
Matthew Pilott 122

19 September 2008 at 9:25 am

Trav, at risk of being another bigoted white middle class idiot with my head in the sand, I’m also getting mighty sick of your threadjacking and abuse.

What you are doing is basically rude – insisting that the debate be on your terms. Guess what – this debate isn’t about thermite, 9/11, the collapse of the US’ financial system or DU. Please have the decency to leave us to it; if it’s not what you want to talk about, talk elsewhere.

For the record I find some of what you say interesting, and the first few times I was willing to read it, we even had a chat about DU at one stage. But the 40th time…
Vanilla Eis 123

19 September 2008 at 9:26 am

Eve: Thermite is hardly new to the world of science (For military purposes, perhaps you’re thinking of Thermate?) Neither is thermal expansion. In fact… no, I can’t be bothered.

Did you even read T-Rex’s last couple of posts before telling him so eloquently to fuck off? He made an excellent and, importantly, on-topic point about why we shouldn’t go to war, but you’re so mired in the fact that he disagrees with you about 9/11 that you don’t even take the time to address his post.

You’re showing Rex considerably less respect than he gave you when he took the time to debate (at great length) the 9/11 collapses.

Stop trying to drag threads off topic, it’s frustating to watch and doesn’t get you anywhere either.

p.s: As a lower-class pakeha, I’m also offended when you start labelling us broadly. vto is right – just because it’s aimed at white people doesn’t mean it isn’t bigotry.
higherstandard 124

19 September 2008 at 9:27 am

Randal

In Eve’s delightful little world ……. Yes Randal I would be happy to be the first to go.

The poor dear is nuttier than squirrel poo !

[lprent: I’ve never seen a squirrel, let alone their crap – relevance?]
Vanilla Eis 125

19 September 2008 at 9:34 am

And MP beat me to it…
higherstandard 126

19 September 2008 at 9:41 am

Lynn

Nuttier …… than squirrel poo.

Feck I give up and Tane accused righties of not having a sense of humour !
coge 127

19 September 2008 at 9:57 am

Hey Trav, (to quote Owen Glenn), what time is your flight leaving?
travellerev 128

19 September 2008 at 10:51 am

Matthew Pilot,

It takes a long time for me to call someone a bigot or an idiot. It usually happens when people like Billy or HS troll without actually adding to the debate. I am white myself and I don’t judge every pakeha. In fact most of my friends are pakeha while as a maori friend of mine explained to me in fine detail pakeha’s are part of the NZ human landscape I am just a toa iwi. (foreigner) LOL.

So please, don’t feel offended if I single out a small group of bigoted commentators here whom I feel are patronising and act as if they have the right to decide who engages here and how.

This thread is about war; should we be involved and with how many and whether John Key would have us taken to Iraq.
While I have no doubt about the fact that John Key would have done exactly that, what bothers me is that for some reason most of you seem to think that the Iraq war is bad and the Afghanistan war is good.

I just happen to have a different outlook on both wars.

I think they are both bad, illegal and genocidal.

I do so because after three long years of 8 hours a day study I have come to the conclusion that it would have been impossible for three buildings to have come down in freefall speed into their own footprint just because they were hit by two planes in the two towers designed to take the impact of just such a hit.

Which means that perhaps we have been conned into an illegal war of aggression.

I don’t want to force a 911 discussion as such but I am entitled to that opinion and if someone challenges me I think that within reason I’m entitled to meet that challenge because if I’m correct than Afghanistan is also an illegal war of aggression and New Zealand should not be involved in that one either. In fact it would make Helen Clark and Phil Goff eligible for their day in court in the Haque.

Added to that I have questions about the use of DU in both countries.
For example if we are in Afghanistan to catch Osama bin Laden (the big baddy in the 911 myth after all) or to help the country rebuild or to free the poor oppressed women then why is New Zealand (fervently anti nuclear if I remember correctly) involved in this war while our coalition partner the US is bombing the country back to the stone age with more than 2000 tons of DU.

What is so liberating or good about that and why are you guys not asking those same questions?
Why is nobody asking what the heck we are still in Afghanistan for. Osama only shows up when the US government needs to scare the shit out of its citizens. Nobody is looking for him and in fact he is not even on the FBI most wanted list because there is not enough evidence.
The plight of women is even worse than under the Taliban and in fact the Taliban is resurging and stronger than ever.

I am all for putting the Iraq war on the election agenda but while we’re at it let’s have a second look at the Afghan war as well, eh.

Matthew, I think I am entitled to engage in the discussion from this point of view. To tell me not to engage in a discussion based on the fact that my world view is different to yours because I introduce elements in the discussion you don’t like to look at is, excuse me, insisting the debate is on your terms.

Now most of the people debating or commenting here are from Anglo- Saxon descent. You probably all have a strong sense of bonding with the US, Australia and the UK. You share your ancestry with these countries after all but I don’t.

My history books were different from yours. Where I grew up I was taught that while archduke Franz Ferdinand was indeed shot in Sarajevo this was not the real reason for the beginning of the second world war. One of the real reasons was the fact that Germany was building an oil pipeline to the middle east and that had to be stopped.
We were also taught that Germany instigated “False flag” incidents to get into war with Poland and to get the German people ready for war.
So the Dutch having lived through the second WW are very aware of the deviousness of governments. You see the difference?

We learned to take a step back from our rulers and became a lot more distrustful of them.

Now let’s take another step back; The Bush family financed Hitler and made money from the slave labour in Auschwitz
In fact Prescott Bush Georges grandfather actively sought to perpetrate a fascist coup on the USA in 1933.

I’m sure that was not in your history books either.

So to get back to the thread; Helen Clark upset a great many people by suggesting that John Key would have taken NZ to Iraq because the NZ population thinks that Iraq is a bad war.

Knowing what I know and assuming people want to learn all there is to learn to make a sound judgement I inserted my point of view based on that knowledge into the debate.

The debate about Iraq is good but Helen can not debate Iraq only because it gives her political advantage over John Key without some people (like me) saying, “Hang on Helen while we are discussing Iraq what about the other one “the forgotten one” the one we are officially involved in, the one were our coalition partners are shooting the crap out civilians with more than 2000 tonnes of DU contaminating that country for the next 4.5 billion years while we the NZ punters are told that we are good little partners of our big brother who just happen to be ruled by a family of Nazi sympathisers.”

You see were I’m coming from?
travellerev 129

19 September 2008 at 11:24 am

Vanilla Eis,

Did you check the link about NIST and their connection to Nanothermite?

Yes, thermate is old news but with the development of Nano technology NIST scientists have come up with incendiaries that are so volatile, hot and explosive that even mixed in a gel and sprayed on steel it can cause the steel to melt instantly when ignited.
And that was developed prior to 911 by them and they did not even entertain the notion that an explosion might be the cause of the collapse. Why? because nobody witnessed explosions loud enough. How is that for a scientific approach? The fact of the matter is there was ample evidence of explosions just before the collapse nd even before the first tower collapsed. Check out my blog if your interested.

Yes, thermal expansion is as old as the world. In fact I use it to open jam jars etc. by holding the jar under the hot tap. What is new about it though is that a relatively small office fire was able to heat up one massive beam in a structure reinforced to withstand a nuclear blast and to cause it’s collapse in 6.5 seconds into a pyroclastic flow of dust into it’s own footprint.

And yes, I read T-rex’s complete post and I agree with him on this topic. But I did not tell him to get fucked. I just returned the pleasure because he agreed with vto about me getting fucked.

T-rex claims he’s a Physicist which means he should understand the laws of Newton and should be able to distinguish when they are violated. Buildings don’t collapse in freefall speed into their own footprint due to thermal expansion after a relatively cold office fire. The fires burned in different places all day warming some places up and cooling in other places never heating up the steel more than a couple of hundred degrees not enough to cause the collapse but making it impossible to place explosives to be placed that Larry Silverstein claimed they “pulled” the with.

So, if 19 young Arabs could not have done this no matter how crazed they were than why are we attacking oil rich Arab countries?

Why is it easier for us to believe 19 young Arabs were able to do the impossible and it is OK for us to destroy their countries than take the time and ask for a new and independent investigation?

Why do I write here? I want to debate with the people here because this is a political site with people trying to make sense out of the political landscape they live in. We are heading for one of the most important elections this country has ever seen and I want to get things on the political agenda.
For example I want this country out of Afghanistan. I want the NZ troops save and home.
I don’t want politicians like Helen Clark or John Key making political hay out of the destruction of any country and I want to have the Afghanistan debacle and monstrosity of DU on the political agenda and if you have any decency you should too.
lukas 130

19 September 2008 at 11:33 am

for those of you wanting a readers digest version of the above two comments… Bush blew up the towers then dumped uranium on his own troops.

John Key is to blame for all of this as he has a holiday home in a small island in the Pacific.
Vanilla Eis 131

19 September 2008 at 11:48 am

Eve: no, I didn’t check out the NIST site, because I came to this thread looking for a discussion about NZ’s political motivations for entering or avoiding the Iraq war. I’m not terribly interested in 9/11, and I’m certain that many do not share your unbridled enthusiasm. This is why they do not appreciate your thread-jacking as much as you might like, and leads to frayed tempers and name calling.

Please, leave the 9/11 stuff to threads about 9/11 (Amazingly, I don’t think I’ve seen a single one, but I know I’ve read maybe close to 100 posts from you on the topic) and post relevant political things in the relevant political threads.

Lynn appears to be far more tolerant than many of the other posters here.
travellerev 132

19 September 2008 at 12:08 pm

OK VE,

We’ll just take a few minor events like two bloody great big wars totally out of context and discuss them shall we.

In blissful ignorance about the historical context and firmly believing that all Arabs are our enemies and deserve what they get because Oh, wait a minute yeah, they attacked us on 911. So it’s ok to use 911 as an excuse to destroy ancient countries and their peoples under the guise of bringing freedom and democracy while bombing the fuck out off them with DU but we will not examine that day to make sure that what we are doing is actually justified.

Sounds like a plan mate.

And while you lot do that a little under 1300 people visited my site yesterday and what did they want to learn most about? Ooh oops, New Zealand’s role in Afghanistan and the events of 911. And many of them came via this site. So perhaps you don’t give a fuck but there are plenty who actually do. On sites like this only a handful of people actually bother to comment but trust me this site has plenty of lurkers and they are curious and it seems pretty open minded.

And who knows VE (your name always conjures up that bland white rapper from way back) perhaps Lynn is one of them.

And thank you for reading all my posts who knows something might actually stick one day.
lukas 133

19 September 2008 at 12:11 pm

Eve- how did VE’s comment say that at all? Way to read something into it thats not there
higherstandard 134

19 September 2008 at 12:12 pm

Danger danger don’t engage don’t engage !
travellerev 135

19 September 2008 at 12:22 pm

Neh, HS

Can’t be bothered. He’s such a runt. Just like I won’t bother with you.
lukas 136

19 September 2008 at 12:28 pm

….how do you know that? Are they watching me and feeding you information? Maybe I should head to the cafe downstairs and borrow their stash of tin foil and wrap the walls of my office in it?

sigh.
Vanilla Eis 137

19 September 2008 at 1:01 pm

Eve: … and you totally missed my point.

If you want people to read your site, then link to it in your name (which you do) and make partial posts here, with a link to the rest of the post. It’s still threadjacking, but it’s a bit less intrusive.

This post was not about 9/11, or even related. It was about whether or not it is right for NZ to follow the US into a war to strengthen our relationship. The justification for Iraq was never that Saddam supported the 9/11 bombers, so there’s no need for you to bring it up.

Instead, you could perhaps write a post about how the US continually fuck over any country they sign a FTA with, and why the hell would we want one anyway?

vto, HS and Rex told you to ‘fuck off’ because you’re distracting from the debate. They’re frustrated that we cannot even broach a topic like this without a barrage from you. You might notice that they don’t manage to agree with each other on anything other than the fact that your 9/11 conspiracy posts are annoying.

So, please, just stop ramming this stuff down our throats. Fine, make small posts occasionally to get your site some traffic, but I don’t even want to count the number of words you’ve left behind on this page that most people will skip as soon as they see your name.
rave 138

19 September 2008 at 1:01 pm

Trav:
Yeah I bet Key would have used the same arguments, that war with Iraq in the last analysis was necessary as part of the war on terror. 9/11 gave them the moral high ground to get into genocide. Hypocrites.
And Key would have been in like Saakashvili with thousands of troops to suck up to Bush. That historical scenario precedes any debate about how many body bags might have eventuated.

The righties here while backing Key know that the body count is what turns people against wars. They don’t ask questions when a few almost accidental deaths occur (like the Aussie who shot himself) or about wars authorised by the UN, but 60 body bags, that’s embarrassing, that has to be explained.

OK so let’s work back in history from today cause that’s when the election is. Key’s now ambivalent on the war, he even thinks its over. Therefore, he probably wouldve been advised not to go (he might have listened to Rodney). Anyway, if he did go, it would have been proportional to Aust, therefore our body count would have to be proportional, i.e. none.

So thanks for the history lesson. Especially Franz Ferdinand. They were wars for oil even then.
travellerev 139

19 September 2008 at 2:05 pm

Lucas,

What a strange thing to be contemplating, I use tinfoil for BBQ’s and covering food etc.

VE

VE, HS, Lucas, vto and to a somewhat lesser extend T-rex, yeah you really represent the Standard and it’s readers. A bunch of self-righteous pendantic twits who can barely manage one sentence and who slam on anyone with a different point of view. Not.

Read my answer to Matthew Pilot as to why I write here and it’s not because I want people to read my blogs. That is just a bonus.

I find the energy you put in trying to shut me up equally annoying but since some readers here actually think that my research and links count for something I hope that you don’t mind that for the time being I’ll just continue what I’m doing and ignore your bullying.

vto and T-rex told me to get fucked because I dared to call Billy a typical pakeha middle class bloke and vto took offence to that and so did T-rex.

What is it with guys like you and Billy that keeps you talking in the royal “we” anyway. I don’t know anybody on this site so I won’t presume there is many of “we” on my side. I just write and sometimes I get good feedback and sometimes bad but you guys always make it about we the many and you the lone nut to shut people up.

I approach our involvement in the Afghan and Iraq war from the point of view that 911 wasn’t committed by 19 Arabs because it was scientifically impossible and therefore both wars are illegal and genocidal and all who partake are committing the ultimate war crime; Both wars are illegal first strike wars of aggression and the perpetrators should therefore be send to the Hague and tried accordingly. That was what the Nuremberg trials were all about.

Since according to my point of view the responsible ones probably were part of the Pentagon and criminal factions within the US government, cooperation with them is criminal and whether we do so for personal gain in free trade agreements (with a bankrupt country?) or idealism is neither here nor there.

The wars play out as for profit and we should therefore pull back our troops. To continue to cooperate with parties who destroy and kill for personal gain is criminal in it self and for Helen Clark to use the war in Iraq to gain political points on John Key is disingenuous and dishonest but she can only do so because Kiwi’s generally still believe that we are the good guys in Afghanistan.

You may or may not like my point of view but to tell me to not speak from that point of view just because you don’t believe it or because you don’t care or you don’t want to be confronted by the fact that millions of people everyday wake up to the inconsistencies in the official version because their governments allow documentaries to be shown on TV or their media are more independent than ours(20 million Russians saw Zero 911, and Italian documentary on the 11th of this month for example Italians have produced many 911 documentaries but than they had the CIA organise Gladio and bomb attacks in their country to content with) and are given information about the deceit on that day world wide via their TV’s and media except in the Anglo-Saxon countries, is asking me to censor myself.

It’s like saying you can only talk if you talk in my paradigm and that means you are behaving like a little boy with fingers in his ears and yelling at the top of his voice, “I can’t hear you” when told something you don’t want to hear.
Nobody is forcing you to read what I write so just get over yourself OK and stop behaving like a child.

Thanks Rave,

McCain and that creepy Palin were chosen to run with a video of the towers burning in the background. Sick, absolutely sick.
And John Key’s remark about the Iraq war being over just shows what a political debacle his foreign policy would be. Yuk.
T-Rex 140

19 September 2008 at 8:32 pm

“I do so because after three long years of 8 hours a day study”

I can’t decide if that’s more hillarious or depressing. I think it’s depressing.

—

To others above – thanks for the support. HS is on the mark though, refusal to engage is the only thing that works, ALL attempts to reason have, thus far, been TOTALLY ignored. I could make a list as long as my arm of insults and denial of established facts. And that’s if I used some sort of microfiche – in #8 font it would stretch the length of a street.

Don’t play with the tantrum child! It will bring no good to your soul or sanity! Learn from my incredibly ill-advised sacrifice of time and energy! Follow the teachings of the great and wise Bill Brown who did say unto me “T-Rex : Zip it”.

Bill: I’m a-zippin’. One day I may acheive Zen 🙂
travellerev 141

20 September 2008 at 2:11 am

T-rex,

Buildings reinforced to withstand a nuclear blast do not collapse in 6.5 sec due to an office fire, it is that simple.

Established facts my ass. deuh, Thermal expansion?

You claim to be a physicist do the math, do your job, you dimwit.
higherstandard 142

20 September 2008 at 8:30 am

Dear Tulip

Very few office fires have been started by airliners flying into buildings while loaded with fuel.

Have you ever heard of gravity apparently it exists.

Danger danger don’t engage.
Go The Right 143

20 September 2008 at 8:58 am

Great work done here by The Kiwiblog crew just showing how low Helen will go to remain in Power. We all expect her to dredge some of these up next.
Why is Key so silent on that day in Dallas on the grassy knoll and what was he up to in Sarajevo in 1914?
John Key disabled the warning signal at Tangiwai.
John Key has been known to mix formula milk at home,
Financing Osama BinLaden whilst at Merrill Lynch
Members of the Manson cult are also known to have celebrated John Key’s 8th birthday by slaughtering Sharon Tate and others
John Key was also seen leaving Cape Canaveral prior to the launch of Challenger, with an o-ring hanging out of his briefcase.
He was smoking a cigar on the Hindenburg too.
I understand he was seen near a hill outside Jerusalem one Easter over 2000 years ago carrying a hammer and three nails as well. However,
He was also seen fiddling with the hatch of Apollo 1
It was JK that gave Greg Chappell the idea
Add up the Ascii values of the characters “John KEY’ and you get 664. makes John Key the neighbour of the Beast
John Key shot Bambi’s mum
Does he have an alibi for September 10 2001? Has anyone in the MSM thought to check?
At the 1995 Rugby World Cup, dressed as a waitress called Suzie, John Key
it was not the Grinch who stole Christmas. Indeed it was John Key.
John Key is actually Elvis. He faked his own death to join the National Party.
John Key dumped all his shares in Union Carbide in November 1984
John Key framed Roger Rabbit. And Winston.
A JohnKey stole my baby!’ not a dingo

[lprent: Tell me – do you understand how to link? Read the FAQ. There is really no need to copy and paste except to illustrate a point. ]
T-Rex 144

20 September 2008 at 9:13 am

“John Key shot Bambi’s mum”

That one’s true – the rifling on the bullet matches the one pulled from JFK.
travellerev 145

20 September 2008 at 9:49 am

HS,

WTC 7 was not hit by an airplane you fuckwit.
Gravity is actually a very weak force and can easily be withstood by a light weight bird.
It does not collapse reinforced to withstand nuclear blasts buildings after an office fire. Oh, and these are the exlosions preceding the collapse and funny enough firemen apparently knowing that the building was being pulled.

T-rex you’re a smart man, look at it and show me were you think I’m going wrong. You’re a physicist do your job.

And guess what pathetically called “gotheright” your John Key was managing “debt” in 1999 when the subprime crisis was born and prepared and he was happily advising Alan Greenspan as a rep for Merrill Lynch together with guys from Citigroup, UBSWarburg, Lehman Bros, Ooh oops, the four banks most affected so far by the financial collapse of the western world.
travellerev 146

20 September 2008 at 10:12 am

Oh HS,

The planes were not fully loaded with Kerosene and most off it burned of in the first few seconds. HS I don’t expect you to understand you simply don’t possess enough brains but T-rex, black smoke, you physicist you, black smoke coming from a fire?

Ever tried to cook on LPG on a LNG (Liqued natural gas) stove? Soot baby soot. Lots of soot.
Black yukky stuff in the dish washing machine. A Cold fire. An inefficient fuel to air ratio, you numbskull.

Office fires, even badly burning ones started by Kerosene, do not bring down steel reinforced skyscrapers in freefall (10 and 11 seconds) clouds of pyroclastic flows.

And to get back to the thread: We should not be involved in the wars that were started as a result of 911 because it was an inside job. It was a false flag operation that killed two New Zealanders amongst others.

Out fishing and whitebaiting today dear baiters, hope you can wait until sundown for more real world info. LOL.
RedLogix 147

20 September 2008 at 11:32 am

Even when the 911 Commissioners themselves repudiated the very investigation they had presided over as “set up to fail”…. most people still could not bring themselves to admit to even the tiniest bit of doubt about the report and still refer to it as authoritative. Still to this day refuse to examine or even debate the hundreds of questions and contradictions in the official story.

The hard, weird reality is that no matter what evidence comes to light, most people have too much psychologically invested in the official story to ever abandon it now.
higherstandard 148

20 September 2008 at 12:04 pm

Tulip

I think you must have been smoking your own dung again.

WTC7 was not hit by any airplanes but there does tend to be considerable damage caused when two of the worlds largest skyscrapers collapse next door – it’s a bugger that gravity !

Add to that the fires that were going on and you get a recipe for a collapse.

Black smoke is likely to have been caused by combustible material inside the buildings, including rugs, curtains, furniture and paper.

Red Logix I think you mistake healthy scepticism with over paranoia !

In any situation one needs to ask what’s the more likely answer. A group of nuts who decided to hijack jet liners and fly them into buildings or a conspiracy which involved the US government being complicit in hijacking jet liners and murdering their own citizens.

Eve has embedded herself in her own belief set which is fine but she should keep it to her own blog where people actually want to discuss it …. or not.
randal 149

20 September 2008 at 12:25 pm

hs is there any possibility that you could refrain from insulting everybody you disagree with?
higherstandard 150

20 September 2008 at 1:29 pm

Randal are you HS ?
Felix 151

20 September 2008 at 4:08 pm

We’re all pretty much accustomed to your condescending attitude Dr higherstandard, but why the racist slur “Tulip”?

Bit off even for you isn’t it?
travellerev 152

20 September 2008 at 4:46 pm

HS,

Your ignorance is truly staggering.

According to NIST there was no damage to speak of and no steel framed building has ever before or after 911 collapsed due to fire even though there have been fires much hotter. According to NIST it was the thermal expansion of one beam which caused the building to collapse in freefall speed into pulverised concrete into it’s own footprint in 6.5 seconds. They usually pay millions to have this done with controlled demolition but I guess all we need is a little fossil fuel and a BIC lighter from now on.

The Twin towers also collapsed into pulverised dust and WTC 7 was in the outer debris field with many other buildings which did not collapse. Some of these buildings are still standing and are to toxic to be taken down. Three years after the attacks bone fragments were found on the roof of Deutsche bank 60 meters away from were the towers had stood. Gravity does not blow bone fragments everywhere.

A building twice reinforced to withstand a nuclear blast (Giuliani’s bunker was housed in the building) does not collapse into fine dust because some file cabinets caught on fire.
Listen to Barry Jennings who died mysteriously two days before the NIST rapport was made public and who told the world of the explosions inside the WTC 7 before the either of the Towers collapsed. He was not alone that day. He was with Michael Hess on his way to Giuliani’s bunker who confirmed the story that Jennings told.
travellerev 153

20 September 2008 at 4:47 pm

RedLogic

You know what is so surprising is the fact that most people now more than ever seem to wake up from the fear induced that day.

Around the world there are huge groups going out the 11th of every month to give information and 80% of Americans now want a new and independent investigation.

In New York activists have collected 30.000 signatures to get a new investigation going and they did so with the help of celebrities such a Governor Jesse Ventura, Willie Nelson, Green presidential candidate Cynthia McKinney, Christine Ebersole, Sen. Mike Gravel, Daniel Sunjata(rescue me), State Senator Karen Johnson to name a few.

We have been told by journalists that 911 is officially taboo on NZTV 1 and 2 and may not be discussed even though the journalists we spoke to want to put some of the documentaries on.

On the 11th of September 20 million Russians watched a mainstream Italian documentary called Zero 911. this film has been shown to Italians on mainstream TV and a lot of European senders.

It is just that in New Zealand all the major media is either foreign owned or state controlled and you have dimwits like HS who thinks he knows it all.

By the way if you want to know how most of the families of those who perished in the towers feel about the 911 (all of whom had ties to the military industrial complex) commission you could watch 911 Press for truth about four republican Bush voting 911 widows and their heart wrenching quest to find out what happened on that day and how they had to fight to even get the 911 commission formed.
T-Rex 154

20 September 2008 at 6:33 pm

To clarify my position – I’m not claiming that no element or affiliate of the US government was involved in orchestrating the 9/11 attacks. It’s possible, motive and opportunity both exist, and it’s quite possible we’ll never know for sure.

Trav, I’m not arguing with you, I’ve done so at great length before and got nowhere because you are completely close minded and have spent (as you say above) 3 years at 8 hours a day entrenching yourself in the mindset you’ve picked. In that time you could have done an engineering degree and would actually understand the arguments you are making (and their flaws) but instead you mindlessly recite mantras such as “6.4 seconds” and “pyroclastic flow” as though they somehow lend credibility to your argument – all the while ignoring the obvious (such as, especially in the case of wtc 1 and 2, video evidence). So, there’s nothing to be gained by arguing the point with you.

So far, the only thing I agree on you about is DU, which is nasty shit (but that’s nothing unusual in war). However, the US has not “bombed the sh*t” out of anyone with it – DU is used for kinetic penetrators, rarely present in bombs. Just to be clear on the cause of gulf war syndrome though – it’s heavy metal toxicity, not radioactivity. I’m only mentioning this because radioactivity is what people usually associate with uranium.

“Gravity does not blow bone fragments everywhere.”

Please please just stop. You honestly have no idea what you’re talking about at all and it’s painful. Go back and read all that stuff I wrote so long ago about energy dissipated in the tower falling that far and dispute it if you can ON THAT THREAD. And with REASONING, not buzzwords and emotive rants.

For what it’s worth, I think the lifestyle you’ve chosen sounds great and is probably good for the world, I just hope you stop spending so much time on a pointless web crusade one day. Especially in consideration of the fact that:
1) Your car still doesn’t run on water,
2) You’re becoming that which you claim to hate (you’re rude, you ignore facts, and you try to shout down and insult anyone who disagrees with you while using “oppressed persons” language to defend your actions).

So far every single time I raise a valid point you just completely ignore the implications (and it’s happened often enough to be statistical certainty), so you must be able to understand my reluctance to try again.

Especially since there are mountains to be explored.

Adios
higherstandard 155

21 September 2008 at 9:16 am

Felix can you tell me what other flowers are racist slurs so I can avoid hurting your delicate sensibilities.
travellerev 156

21 September 2008 at 1:10 pm

T-rex,

About our fuel cell: On the 10th of September I drove with a full tank of gas from somewhere near Hamilton to Wellington. I arrived at Wellington with 620 km on the clock and still above the empty line.
My car used to have a maximum range of 450km. That makes for a 170 km increase and I could have driven a lot longer. On the 12th I drove back and arrived at my home with 580 km on the clock and the day after we drove an additional 70 km before we filled her up again. The gauge had only just touched the empty mark. I don’t know about you but that is good mileage in my book and all that with the help of a little bit of water.

About the closed mind thing on 911. I did not choose a mindset. it took me about a year and a half to accept that 19 young men could not have done what the US government claimed they had done and another 1.5 years to read watch whatever material I could find to be sure I had come to the right conclusion.

About the you don’t know what your talking about bit the following. Whatever, you physicist you, the man who doesn’t comprehend Newtons laws of motion and believes that the amount of energy needed to pulverise three huge steel framed buildings in freefall speed of 6.5, 10 and 11 sec could come from two not fully fuelled planes.

Regardless of what you think it is very important; the time it takes to pulverise buildings into their own footprint.
People used to pay millions to have buildings blown up with that kind of precision. I guess they must feel pretty ripped off knowing now that all it really takes is a couple of office fires and and the thermal expansion of just one beam to collapse a 47 floor skyscraper reinforced twice to withstand a nuclear blast into a pile of dust into its own footprint in just 6.5 seconds. LOL.

Any way you may think I’m stupid but I’m in bloody good company with scholars, architects and engineers, Fire fighters, pilots, militaryand other US patriots all wanting a new and independent investigation whereas you have to do with losers like HS and Billy, oh and that other nitwit, Lucas which is sad really because you are not entirely stupid and I like a lot of what you write.

By the way DU is not just nasty stuff now but will be for the next 4.5 billion year. It used to be that the effects of war would wear of over a few decennia, but these wars will never, ever stop, and not just for the Iraqis and Afghans, but for the US soldiers and the soldiers of every country that has troops stationed in both countries and that includes the New Zealand troops. That is a huge difference.

For the person still believing that DU is only used as a an armour piercing weapon: DU is now used in every form of projectile. from bullet to grenade to bomb.

Hi Felix,

The term Tulip, coming from a thoroughly pathetic character with the moniker Higherstandard (whatever) is a batch of honour to me but thanks for calling him on his condescending pratty behaviour.
travellerev 157

21 September 2008 at 1:11 pm

Bugger, in purgatory again. Help, Heeeelp.

Links to post

The Standard 2.01: The Standard Week: 12-19 September: posted on 19 September 2008 at 12:51 pm

Comments are now closed

Articles RSS

CommentsOpinions

FeedsPartyGovtMedia

Dance Magic

Well, I've been there, sitting in that same chairWhispering that same prayer half a million timesIt's a lie, though buried in disciplesOne page of the Bible isn't worth a lifeThere's nothing wrong with youIt's true, it's trueThere's something wrong with the villageWith the villageSomething wrong with the villageSongwriters: Andrew Jackson ...

Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel

4 hours ago
Government Forces Universities to Enforce “Free Speech” While Limiting Universities&#821...

ACT would like to dictate what universities can and can’t say. We knew it was coming. It was outlined in the coalition agreement and has become part of Seymour’s strategy of “emphasising public funding” to prevent people from opposing him and his views—something he also uses to try and de-platform ...

Sapphi’s SubstackBy Sapphi

4 hours ago
Fact brief – Are we heading into an ‘ice age’?

Skeptical Science is partnering with Gigafact to produce fact briefs — bite-sized fact checks of trending claims. This fact brief was written by Sue Bin Park from the Gigafact team in collaboration with members from our team. You can submit claims you think need checking via the tipline. Are we heading ...

Skeptical Science

16 hours ago
As Our Power Lessens: Published

So the Solstice has arrived – Summer in this part of the world, Winter for the Northern Hemisphere. And with it, the publication my new Norse dark-fantasy piece, As Our Power Lessens at Eternal Haunted Summer: https://eternalhauntedsummer.com/issues/winter-solstice-2024/as-our-power-lessens/ As previously noted, this one is very ‘wyrd’, and Northern Theory of Courage. ...

A Phuulish FellowBy strda221

21 hours ago
By Any Other Name.

The Natural Choice: As a starter for ten percent of the Party Vote, “saving the planet” is a very respectable objective. Young voters, in particular, raised on the dire (if unheeded) warnings of climate scientists, and the irrefutable evidence of devastating weather events linked to global warming, vote Green. After ...

Bowalley Road

1 day ago
Bernard’s last Saturday Soliloquy for 2024

The Government cancelled 60% of Kāinga Ora’s new builds next year, even though the land for them was already bought, the consents were consented and there are builders unemployed all over the place. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāMōrena. Long stories short, the six things that mattered in Aotearoa’s political ...

The KakaBy Bernard Hickey

1 day ago
Bernard’s Picks ‘n’ Mixes for Saturday, December 21

Photo by CHUTTERSNAP on UnsplashEvery morning I get up at 3am to go around the traps of news sites in Aotearoa and globally. I pick out the top ones from my point of view and have been putting them into my Dawn Chorus email, which goes out with a podcast. ...

The KakaBy Bernard Hickey

1 day ago
2024 OIA stats

Over on Kikorangi Newsroom's Marc Daalder has published his annual OIA stats. So I thought I'd do mine: 82 OIA requests sent in 2024 7 posts based on those requests 20 average working days to receive a response Ministry of Justice was my most-requested entity, ...

No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant

2 days ago
Climate Change: A perverse incentive

The government published its first Biennial Transparency Report under the Paris Agreement yesterday, and the media has correctly noted that it is missing any plan to actually meet our target. While it hypes domestic emissions reductions so far - which have been good, but will likely get worse thanks to ...

No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant

2 days ago
Economic Bulletin December 2024

Welcome to the December 2024 Economic Bulletin. We have two monthly features in this edition. In the first, we discuss what the Half Year Economic and Fiscal Update from Treasury and the Budget Policy Statement from the Minister of Finance tell us about the fiscal position and what to ...

NZCTUBy Jack McDonald

2 days ago
NZCTU make submission in opposition to Treaty Principles Bill

The NZCTU Te Kauae Kaimahi have submitted against the controversial Treaty Principles Bill, slamming the Bill as a breach of Te Tiriti o Waitangi and an attack on tino rangatiratanga and the collective rights of Tangata Whenua. “This Bill seeks to legislate for Te Tiriti o Waitangi principles that are ...

NZCTUBy Jack McDonald

2 days ago
ZB’s Power Couple

I don't knowHow to say what's got to be saidI don't know if it's black or whiteThere's others see it redI don't get the answers rightI'll leave that to youIs this love out of fashionOr is it the time of yearAre these words distraction?To the words you want to hearSongwriters: ...

Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel

2 days ago
Austerity thumps GDP most since 1991

Our economy has experienced its worst recession since 1991. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāMōrena. Long stories short, the six things that matter in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate and poverty on Friday, December 20 in The Kākā’s Dawn Chorus podcast above and the daily Pick ‘n’ Mix below ...

The KakaBy Bernard Hickey

2 days ago
Weekly Roundup 20-December-2024

Twas the Friday before Christmas and all through the week we’ve been collecting stories for our final roundup of the year. As we start to wind down for the year we hope you all have a safe and happy Christmas and new year. If you’re travelling please be safe on ...

Greater AucklandBy Greater Auckland

2 days ago
The Hoon around the year to December 20, 2024

The podcast above of the weekly ‘Hoon’ webinar for paying subscribers on Thursday night features co-hosts & talking about the year’s news with: on climate. Her book of the year was Tim Winton’s cli-fi novel Juice and she also mentioned Mike Joy’s memoir The Fight for Fresh Water. ...

The KakaBy Bernard Hickey

2 days ago
The baby-boomers’ last gasp

The Government can head off to the holidays, entitled to assure itself that it has done more or less what it said it would do. The campaign last year promised to “get New Zealand back on track.” When you look at the basic promises—to trim back Government expenditure, toughen up ...

PolitikBy Richard Harman

2 days ago
Skeptical Science New Research for Week #51 2024

Open access notables An intensification of surface Earth’s energy imbalance since the late 20th century, Li et al., Communications Earth & Environment: Tracking the energy balance of the Earth system is a key method for studying the contribution of human activities to climate change. However, accurately estimating the surface energy balance ...

Skeptical Science

3 days ago
Join us at 5pm for 2024’s last Hoon

Photo by Mauricio Fanfa on UnsplashKia oraCome and join us for our weekly ‘Hoon’ webinar with paying subscribers to The Kākā for an hour at 5 pm today.Jump on this link on YouTube Livestream for our chat about the week’s news with myself , plus regular guests and , ...

The KakaBy Bernard Hickey

3 days ago
Christmas Gifts: Ageing Boomers, Laurie & Les, Talk Politics.

“Like you said, I’m an unreconstructed socialist. Everybody deserves to get something for Christmas.”“ONE OF THOSE had better be for me!” Hannah grinned, fascinated, as Laurie made his way, gingerly, to the bar, his arms full of gift-wrapped packages.“Of course!”, beamed Laurie. Depositing his armful on the bar-top and selecting ...

Bowalley Road

3 days ago
GDP Figures No Christmas Present for New Zealand

Data released by Statistics New Zealand today showed a significant slowdown in the economy over the past six months, with GDP falling by 1% in September, and 1.1% in June said CTU Economist Craig Renney. “The data shows that the size of the economy in GDP terms is now smaller ...

NZCTUBy Stella Whitfield

3 days ago
Cheeseburgers and Stunt Monkeys

One last thing before I quitI never wanted any moreThan I could fit into my headI still remember every single word you saidAnd all the shit that somehow came along with itStill, there's one thing that comforts meSince I was always caged and now I'm freeSongwriters: David Grohl / Georg ...

Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel

3 days ago
MSD rejecting 220 pleas for food grants each day

Sparse offerings outside a Te Kauwhata church. Meanwhile, the Government is cutting spending in ways that make thousands of hungry children even hungrier, while also cutting funding for the charities that help them. It’s also doing that while winding back new building of affordable housing that would allow parents to ...

The KakaBy Bernard Hickey

3 days ago
The Wing Parties’ Economic Policies.

It is difficult to make sense of the Luxon Coalition Government’s economic management.This end-of-year review about the state of economic management – the state of the economy was last week – is not going to cover the National Party contribution. Frankly, like every other careful observer, I cannot make up ...

PunditBy Brian Easton

3 days ago
Back on Track

This morning I awoke to the lovely news that we are firmly back on track, that is if the scale was reversed.NZ ranks low in global economic comparisonsNew Zealand's economy has been ranked 33rd out of 37 in an international comparison of which have done best in 2024.Economies were ranked ...

Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tūī

3 days ago
Book Review: How Big Things Get Done

This is a guest post by George Weeks, reviewing a book called How Big Things Get Done by Bent Flyvbjerg and Dan Gardner Want to know how to do something big? Ask someone who has done it before! Professor Bent Flyvbjerg has spent his career studying megaprojects. In 2023, ...

Greater AucklandBy Guest Post

3 days ago
Gordon Campbell On Why We Can’t Survive Two More Years Of This

Remember those silent movies where the heroine is tied to the railway tracks or going over the waterfall in a barrel? Finance Minister Nicola Willis seems intent on portraying herself as that damsel in distress. According to Willis, this country’s current economic problems have all been caused by the spending ...

WerewolfBy ScoopEditor

4 days ago
Dragging our way towards the finish line, the end of this year can’t come soon enough for many…

Similar to the cuts and the austerity drive imposed by Ruth Richardson in the 1990’s, an era which to all intents and purposes we’ve largely fiddled around the edges with fixing in the time since – over, to be fair, several administrations – whilst trying our best it seems to ...

exhALANtBy exhalantblog

4 days ago
Handling Democracy.

String-Pulling in the Dark: For the democratic process to be meaningful it must also be public. WITH TRUST AND CONFIDENCE in New Zealand’s politicians and journalists steadily declining, restoring those virtues poses a daunting challenge. Just how daunting is made clear by comparing the way politicians and journalists treated New Zealanders ...

Bowalley Road

4 days ago
Open letter to the Minister of Dwindling Finances

Dear Nicola Willis, thank you for letting us know in so many words that the swingeing austerity hasn't worked.By in so many words I mean the bit where you said, Here is a sea of red ink in which we are drowning after twelve months of savage cost cutting and ...

More Than A FeildingBy David Slack

4 days ago
Open Government: The joke ends

The Open Government Partnership is a multilateral organisation committed to advancing open government. Countries which join are supposed to co-create regular action plans with civil society, committing to making verifiable improvements in transparency, accountability, participation, or technology and innovation for the above. And they're held to account through an Independent ...

No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant

4 days ago
An unusual sort of press conference

Today I tuned into something strange: a press conference that didn’t make my stomach churn or the hairs on the back of my neck stand on end. Which was strange, because it was about the torture of children. It was the announcement by Erica Stanford — on her own, unusually ...

Sapphi’s SubstackBy Sapphi

4 days ago
This substack has talked about this government’s seeming corruption & pro-corporate issues...

This is a must watch, and puts on brilliant and practical display the implications and mechanics of fast-track law corruption and weakness.CLICK HERE: LINK TO WATCH VIDEO Our news media as it is set up is simply not equipped to deal with the brazen disinformation and corruption under this right wing ...

Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tūī

4 days ago
NZCTU: Minister needs to listen to the evidence on engineered stone ban

NZCTU Te Kauae Kaimahi Acting Secretary Erin Polaczuk is welcoming the announcement from Minister of Workplace Relations and Safety Brooke van Velden that she is opening consultation on engineered stone and is calling on her to listen to the evidence and implement a total ban of the product. “We need ...

NZCTUBy Stella Whitfield

4 days ago
Wednesday 18 December

The Government has announced a 1.5% increase in the minimum wage from 1 April 2025, well below forecast inflation of 2.5%. Unions have reacted strongly and denounced it as a real terms cut. PSA and the CTU are opposing a new round of staff cuts at WorkSafe, which they say ...

NZCTUBy Jack McDonald

4 days ago
Can the government change its mind on the ferries?

The decision to unilaterally repudiate the contract for new Cook Strait ferries is beginning to look like one of the stupidest decisions a New Zealand government ever made. While cancelling the ferries and their associated port infrastructure may have made this year's books look good, it means higher costs later, ...

No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant

4 days ago
Notes from Afar: Will Luxon Attend Waitangi Day? And Opposition Calls Out Nicola Willis for “C...

Hi there! I’ve been overseas recently, looking after a situation with a family member. So apologies if there any less than focused posts! Vanuatu has just had a significant 7.3 earthquake. Two MFAT staff are unaccounted for with local fatalities.It’s always sad to hear of such things happening.I think of ...

Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tūī

4 days ago
Member’s morning

Today is a special member's morning, scheduled to make up for the government's theft of member's days throughout the year. First up was the first reading of Greg Fleming's Crimes (Increased Penalties for Slavery Offences) Amendment Bill, which was passed unanimously. Currently the House is debating the third reading of ...

No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant

4 days ago
Going Backwards

We're going backwardsIgnoring the realitiesGoing backwardsAre you counting all the casualties?We are not there yetWhere we need to beWe are still in debtTo our insanitiesSongwriter: Martin Gore Read more ...

Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel

4 days ago
Blaming Treasury & Labour, Willis looks for even more Austerity

Willis blamed Treasury for changing its productivity assumptions and Labour’s spending increases since Covid for the worsening Budget outlook. Photo: Getty ImagesMōrena. Long stories short, the six things that matter in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate and poverty on Wednesday, December 18 in The Kākā’s Dawn Chorus podcast above ...

The KakaBy Bernard Hickey

4 days ago
December-24 AT Board Meeting

Today the Auckland Transport board meet for the last time this year. For those interested (and with time to spare), you can follow along via this MS Teams link from 10am. I’ve taken a quick look through the agenda items to see what I think the most interesting aspects are. ...

Greater AucklandBy Matt L

4 days ago
The Making of a Mental Health Rockstar

Hi,If you’re a New Zealander — you know who Mike King is. He is the face of New Zealand’s battle against mental health problems. He can be loud and brash. He raises, and is entrusted with, a lot of cash. Last year his “I Am Hope” charity reported a revenue ...

David FarrierBy David Farrier

4 days ago
It could have been worse

Probably about the only consolation available from yesterday’s unveiling of the Half-Yearly Economic and Fiscal Update (HYEFU) is that it could have been worse. Though Finance Minister Nicola Willis has tightened the screws on future government spending, she has resisted the calls from hard-line academics, fiscal purists and fiscal hawks ...

PolitikBy Richard Harman

4 days ago
The Deep Divisions of Local Government

The right have a stupid saying that is only occasionally true:When is democracy not democracy? When it hasn’t been voted on.While not true in regards to branches of government such as the judiciary, it’s a philosophy that probably should apply to recently-elected local government councillors. Nevertheless, this concept seemed to ...

Sapphi’s SubstackBy Sapphi

4 days ago
Willis’ austerity strategy just isn’t working

Long story short: the Government’s austerity policy has driven the economy into a deeper and longer recession that means it will have to borrow $20 billion more over the next four years than it expected just six months ago. Treasury’s latest forecasts show the National-ACT-NZ First Government’s fiscal strategy of ...

The KakaBy Bernard Hickey

5 days ago
Sabin 33 #7 – Are solar projects hurting farmers and rural communities?

On November 1, 2024 we announced the publication of 33 rebuttals based on the report "Rebutting 33 False Claims About Solar, Wind, and Electric Vehicles" written by Matthew Eisenson, Jacob Elkin, Andy Fitch, Matthew Ard, Kaya Sittinger & Samuel Lavine and published by the Sabin Center for Climate Change Law at Columbia ...

Skeptical Science

5 days ago
Join us for a pop-up Hoon at 5pm on HYEFU

Come and join myself and CTU Chief Economist for a pop-up ‘Hoon’ webinar on the Government’s Half Yearly Economic and Fiscal Update (HYEFU) with paying subscribers to The Kākā for 30 minutes at 5 pm today.Jump on this link on YouTube Livestream to watch our chat. Don’t worry if ...

The KakaBy Bernard Hickey

5 days ago
‘Ideas Worth Saving’: A Call for Papers

Some years ago, I found myself pondering the power of literature to endure. Or at least the power of some of it to endure, while the rest vanishes in mere decades: https://phuulishfellow.wordpress.com/2019/08/07/look-on-my-works-ye-mighty-and-despair-the-literary-future/. I have similarly had fun with the subject in some of my short stories, such as Another Alexandria ...

A Phuulish FellowBy strda221

5 days ago
Corrections is torturing prisoners again

In 1998, in the wake of the Paremoremo Prison riot, the Department of Corrections established the "Behaviour Management Regime". Prisoners were locked in their cells for 22 or 23 hours a day, with no fresh air, no exercise, no social contact, no entertainment, and in some cases no clothes and ...

No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant

5 days ago
HYEFU and BPS data shows New Zealand is way off track

New data released by the Treasury shows that the economic policies of this Government have made things worse in the year since they took office, said NZCTU Economist Craig Renney. “Our fiscal indicators are all heading in the wrong direction – with higher levels of debt, a higher deficit, and ...

NZCTUBy Jack McDonald

5 days ago
“Better economic management”

At the 2023 election, National basically ran on a platform of being better economic managers. So how'd that turn out for us? In just one year, they've fucked us for two full political terms: The government's books are set to remain deeply in the red for the near term ...

No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant

5 days ago
Shameless, clueless

AUSTERITYText within this block will maintain its original spacing when publishedMy spreadsheet insists This pain leads straight to glory (File not found) Read more ...

More Than A FeildingBy David Slack

5 days ago
Minimum wage ‘increase’ is an effective cut

The NZCTU Te Kauae Kaimahi are saying that the Government should do the right thing and deliver minimum wage increases that don’t see workers fall further behind, in response to today’s announcement that the minimum wage will only be increased by 1.5%, well short of forecast inflation. “With inflation forecast ...

NZCTUBy Jack McDonald

5 days ago
Crazy ’bout a Sharp-dressed Man

Oh, I weptFor daysFilled my eyesWith silly tearsOh, yeaBut I don'tCare no moreI don't care ifMy eyes get soreSongwriters: Paul Rodgers / Paul Kossoff. Read more ...

Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel

5 days ago
How much should you worry about a collapse of the Atlantic conveyor belt?

This is a re-post from Yale Climate Connections by Bob Henson In this aerial view, fingers of meltwater flow from the melting Isunnguata Sermia glacier descending from the Greenland Ice Sheet on July 11, 2024, near Kangerlussuaq, Greenland. According to the Programme for Monitoring of the Greenland Ice Sheet (PROMICE), the ...

Skeptical Science

5 days ago
8% ACT Party Creates One Ring To Rule Them All

In August, I wrote an article about David Seymour 1 with a video of his testimony, to warn that there were grave dangers to his Ministry of Regulation:David Seymour's Ministry of Slush Hides Far Greater RisksWhy Seymour's exorbitant waste of taxpayers' money could be the least of concernThe money for Seymour ...

Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tūī

5 days ago
When austerity worsens public debt & cuts GDP

Willis is expected to have to reveal the bitter fiscal fruits of her austerity strategy in the HYEFU later today. Photo: Lynn Grieveson/TheKakaMōrena. Long stories short, the six things that matter in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate and poverty on Tuesday, December 17 in The Kākā’s Dawn Chorus podcast ...

The KakaBy Bernard Hickey

5 days ago
Govt to double number of toll roads

On Friday the government announced it would double the number of toll roads in New Zealand as well as make a few other changes to how toll roads are used in the country. The real issue though is not that tolling is being used but the suggestion it will make ...

Greater AucklandBy Matt L

5 days ago
Luxon’s pre-emptive strike

The Prime Minister yesterday engaged in what looked like a pre-emptive strike designed to counter what is likely to be a series of depressing economic statistics expected before the end of the week. He opened his weekly post-Cabinet press conference with a recitation of the Government’s achievements. “It certainly has ...

PolitikBy Richard Harman

5 days ago
Gordon Campbell On The Coalition’s Empty Gestures, And Abortion Refusal As The New Slavery

This whooping cough story from south Auckland is a good example of the coalition government’s approach to social need – spend money on urging people to get vaccinated but only after you’ve cut the funding to where they could get vaccinated. This has been the case all year with public ...

WerewolfBy ScoopEditor

6 days ago
More public service contempt of parliament

Back in 2023 the New Zealand Council for Civil Liberties raised concerns about the inherent conflict of interest involved in public service agencies supporting parliamentary select committees. Our parliament is run on a shoestring, so depends on the public service for advice. But public service agencies work for Ministers, not ...

No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant

6 days ago
If There Is A God

And if there is a GodI know he likes to rockHe likes his loud guitarsHis spiders from MarsAnd if there is a GodI know he's watching meHe likes what he seesBut there's trouble on the breezeSongwriter: William Patrick Corgan Read more ...

Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel

6 days ago
A Lipstick Government

Here’s a quick round up of today’s political news:1. MORE FOOD BANKS, CHARITIES, DOMESTIC VIOLENCE SHELTERS AND YOUTH SOCIAL SERVICES SET TO CLOSE OR SCALE BACK AROUND THE COUNTRY AS GOVT CUTS FUNDINGSome of Auckland's largest foodbanks are warning they may need to close or significantly reduce food parcels after ...

Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tūī

6 days ago
NZCTU open letter to Treasury on undue restrictions on restricted briefings

Iain Rennie, CNZMSecretary and Chief Executive to the TreasuryDear Secretary, Undue restrictions on restricted briefings This week, the Treasury barred representatives from four organisations, including the New Zealand Council of Trade Unions Te Kauae Kaimahi, from attending the restricted briefing for the Half-Year Economic and Fiscal Update. We had been ...

NZCTUBy Jack McDonald

6 days ago
Why you won’t hear me advocate for electric cars

This is a guest post by Tim Adriaansen, a community, climate, and accessibility advocate. I won’t shut up about climate breakdown, and whenever possible I try to shift the focus of a climate conversation towards solutions. But you’ll almost never hear me give more than a passing nod to ...

Greater AucklandBy Guest Post

6 days ago
Coalition forced to back down on tolling Pahiatua track

A grassroots backlash has forced a backdown from Brown, but he is still eyeing up plenty of tolls for other new roads. And the pressure is on Willis to ramp up the Government’s austerity strategy. Photo: Getty ImagesMōrena. Long stories short, the six things that matter in Aotearoa’s political economy ...

The KakaBy Bernard Hickey

6 days ago
Thank You

Hi all,I'm pretty overwhelmed by all your messages and emails today; thank you so very much.As much as my newsletter this morning was about money, and we all need to earn money, it was mostly about world domination if I'm honest. 😉I really hate what’s happening to our country, and ...

Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel

7 days ago
2024 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #50

A listing of 23 news and opinion articles we found interesting and shared on social media during the past week: Sun, December 8, 2024 thru Sat, December 14, 2024. Listing by Category Like last week's summary this one contains the list of articles twice: based on categories and based on ...

Skeptical Science

7 days ago
Making Gravy

I started writing this morning about Hobson’s Pledge, examining the claims they and their supporters make, basically ripping into them. But I kept getting notifications coming through, and not good ones.Each time I looked up, there was another un-subscription message, and I felt a bit sicker at the thought of ...

Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel

1 week ago
Nothing here but the shadows

Once, long before there was Harry and Meghan and Dodi and all those episodes of The Crown, they came to spend some time with us, Charles and Diana. Was there anyone in the world more glamorous than the Princess of Wales?Dazzled as everyone was by their company, the leader of ...

More Than A FeildingBy David Slack

1 week ago
The United Right: the FSU’s Continued Efforts to Undermine Academia

The collective right have a problem.The entire foundation for their world view is antiscientific. Their preferred economic strategies have been disproven. Their whole neoliberal model faces accusations of corporate corruption and worsening inequality. Climate change not only definitely exists, its rapid progression demands an immediate and expensive response in order ...

Sapphi’s SubstackBy Sapphi

1 week ago
Showing the Americans how to do it

Just ten days ago, South Korea's president attempted a self-coup, declaring martial law and attempting to have opposition MPs murdered or arrested in an effort to seize unconstrained power. The attempt was rapidly defeated by the national assembly voting it down and the people flooding the streets to defend democracy. ...

No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant

1 week ago
2 Men, 1 Haircut

Hi,“What I love about New Zealanders is that sometimes you use these expressions that as Americans we have no idea what those things mean!"I am watching a 30-something year old American ramble on about how different New Zealanders are to Americans. It’s his podcast, and this man is doing a ...

David FarrierBy David Farrier

1 week ago
Chris Penk’s Hate Parade

What Chris Penk has granted holocaust-denier and equal-opportunity-bigot Candace Owens is not “freedom of speech”. It’s not even really freedom of movement, though that technically is the right she has been granted. What he has given her is permission to perform. Freedom of SpeechIn New Zealand, the right to freedom ...

Sapphi’s SubstackBy Sapphi

1 week ago
Tell me a story

All those tears on your cheeksJust like deja vu flow nowWhen grandmother speaksSo tell me a story (I'll tell you a story)Spell it out, I can't hear (What do you want to hear?)Why you wear black in the morning?Why there's smoke in the air? Songwriter: Greg Johnson.Mōrena all ☀️Something a ...

Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel

1 week ago
As Our Power Lessens: Accepted

2024 is now officially my best-ever year for short stories. My 1,850-word dark fantasy piece, As Our Power Lessens, has been accepted for the upcoming solstice edition of Eternal Haunted Summer (https://eternalhauntedsummer.com/), thereby making that six published short stories for the calendar year. As always, see the Bibliography page for ...

A Phuulish FellowBy strda221

1 week ago

National’s Greatest Misses 2023-4

National has only been in power for a year, but everywhere you look, its choices are taking New Zealand a long way backwards. In no particular order, here are the National Government's Top 50 Greatest Misses of its first year in power. ...

Labour Blog

2 days ago
Release: Minister’s plan for tertiary sector a backwards step

Returning to the model that was failing for most polytechnics and Institutes of Technology is not the answer. ...

Labour Blog

2 days ago
Release: National buries 1019 planned homes

It’s been revealed that National has cancelled 60 percent of its housing projects planned before mid-2025 amidst housing woes. ...

Labour Blog

2 days ago
Release: Rule-Czar bill a right-wing power grab

The Government is quietly undertaking consultation on the dangerous Regulatory Standards Bill over the Christmas period to avoid too much attention. ...

Labour Blog

2 days ago
Release: Why not both? Luxon shuns Waitangi celebrations

Prime Minister Christopher Luxon is running away from problems of his own creation, with his decision not to go to Waitangi. ...

Labour Blog

3 days ago
Govt’s ‘free speech’ legislation stokes fear, not freedom

The Government’s planned changes to the freedom of speech obligations of universities is little more than a front for stoking the political fires of disinformation and fear, placing teachers and students in the crosshairs. ...

Greens

3 days ago
Release: Nicola Willis spirals country deeper into recession

The economy shrank 1% this quarter and New Zealand has tumbled into the depths of a recession of Nicola Willis’ making. ...

Labour Blog

3 days ago
Release: Hikes for company directors but not ordinary Kiwis

Working people are going backwards while company directors are being given huge pay hikes. ...

Labour Blog

4 days ago
ECE no place to cut corners

The Ministry of Regulation’s report into Early Childhood Education (ECE) in Aotearoa raises serious concerns about the possibility of lowering qualification requirements, undermining quality and risking worse outcomes for tamariki, whānau, and kaiako. ...

Greens

4 days ago
Release: Strengthening Justice Services for New Zealanders

A Bill to modernise the role of Justices of the Peace (JP), ensuring they remain active in their communities and connected with other JPs, has been put into the ballot. ...

Labour Blog

4 days ago
Release: Labour will continue fight against destructive projects

Labour will continue to fight unsustainable and destructive projects that are able to leap-frog environment protection under National’s Fast-track Approvals Bill. ...

Labour Blog

5 days ago
Green Government will revoke dodgy fast-track projects

The Green Party has warned that a Green Government will revoke the consents of companies who override environmental protections as part of Fast-Track legislation being passed today. ...

Greens

5 days ago
Government for the wealthy keeps pushing austerity

The Green Party says the Half Year Economic and Fiscal Update shows how the Government is failing to address the massive social and infrastructure deficits our country faces. ...

Greens

5 days ago
Release: Visa changes let migrant workers be paid less

The Government’s latest move to reduce the earnings of migrant workers will not only hurt migrants but it will drive down the wages of Kiwi workers. ...

Labour Blog

5 days ago
Release: Nightmare before Christmas for Nicola Willis

With more debt and a larger deficit, Nicola Willis’ reputation is in tatters after her failure to return the Government’s books to surplus. ...

Labour Blog

5 days ago
Warning to Fast-Track Applicants – ‘Exploit the Whenua, Face the Consequences’

Te Pāti Māori has this morning issued a stern warning to Fast-Track applicants with interests in mining, pledging to hold them accountable through retrospective liability and to immediately revoke Fast-Track consents under a future Te Pāti Māori government. This warning comes ahead of today’s third reading of the Fast-Track Approvals ...

Māori Party

5 days ago
Release: Govt cuts wages for lowest paid NZers… again

For the second year running, the government has effectively cut wages for the lowest paid workers in New Zealand. ...

Labour Blog

5 days ago
Govt’s miserly 1.5% minimum wage will take workers backwards

The Government’s announcement today of a 1.5 per cent increase to minimum wage is another blow for workers, with inflation projected to exceed the increase, meaning it’s a real terms pay reduction for many. ...

Greens

5 days ago
Release: Govt shirking responsibility for rate hikes

All the Government has achieved from its announcement today is to continue to push responsibility back on councils for its own lack of action to help bring down skyrocketing rates. ...

Labour Blog

5 days ago
Luxon’s ‘localism’ strikes again

The Government has used its final post-Cabinet press conference of the year to punch down on local government without offering any credible solutions to the issues our councils are facing. ...

Greens

6 days ago
Release: Govt breaks promise on EV chargers

The Government has failed to keep its promise to ‘super charge’ the EV network, delivering just 292 chargers - less than half of the 670 chargers needed to meet its target. ...

Labour Blog

6 days ago
Greens call for end to subsidies for Methanex

The Green Party is calling for the Government to stop subsidising the largest user of the country’s gas supplies, Methanex, following a report highlighting the multi-national’s disproportionate influence on energy prices in Aotearoa. ...

Greens

6 days ago
Govt child poverty targets allow for increase in poverty

The Green Party is appalled with the Government’s new child poverty targets that are based on a new ‘persistent poverty’ measure that could be met even with an increase in child poverty. ...

Greens

1 week ago
Release: Four weeks annual leave under threat

The Government’s attack on workers continues with news it is scrapping work on the Holidays Act. ...

Labour Blog

1 week ago
Govt’s emissions plan for measly 1% reduction

New independent analysis has revealed that the Government’s Emissions Reduction Plan (ERP) will reduce emissions by a measly 1 per cent by 2030, failing to set us up for the future and meeting upcoming targets. ...

Greens

1 week ago
Greens stand in solidarity with Whakaata Māori on sad day

The loss of 27 kaimahi at Whakaata Māori and the end of its daily news bulletin is a sad day for Māori media and another step backwards for Te Tiriti o Waitangi justice. ...

Greens

1 week ago
Sanctions regime to create more hardship for families

Yesterday the Government passed cruel legislation through first reading to establish a new beneficiary sanction regime that will ultimately mean more households cannot afford the basic essentials. ...

Greens

1 week ago
Govt gifts renters housing anxiety for Christmas

Today's passing of the Government's Residential Tenancies Amendment Bill–which allows landlords to end tenancies with no reason–ignores the voice of the people and leaves renters in limbo ahead of the festive season. ...

Greens

1 week ago
Release: National Party urged to support modern slavery legislation

Labour is urging the Prime Minister to walk the talk and support legislation combating modern slavery. ...

Labour Blog

1 week ago
Release: Labour has lost confidence in the Speaker

The Speaker of the New Zealand Parliament made an unprecedented decision on the government amendment to the Fast Track Approvals Bill last night. ...

Labour Blog

1 week ago
One year on, still no progress on new ferries

Today’s announcement from the Government on its plan for new ferries throws more uncertainty on the future of the country’s rail network. ...

Greens

2 weeks ago
Release: Nicola Willis’ smaller ferries will cost more

After wasting a year, Nicola Willis has delivered a worse deal for the Cook Strait ferries that will end up being more expensive and take longer to arrive. ...

Labour Blog

2 weeks ago
Bill to sanction unlawful occupation of Palestine

Green Party co-leader Chlöe Swarbrick has today launched a Member’s Bill to sanction Israel for its unlawful presence in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, as the All Out For Gaza rally reaches Parliament. ...

Greens

2 weeks ago
Release: Labour fully supports greyhound racing ban

The Government has done the right thing in moving to ban greyhound racing. ...

Labour Blog

2 weeks ago
Greyhound racing industry ban marks new era for animal welfare

After years of advocacy, the Green Party is very happy to hear the Government has listened to our collective voices and announced the closure of the greyhound racing industry, by 1 August 2026. ...

Greens

2 weeks ago
Rangatahi voices must be centred in Government’s Relationship and Sexuality Education refresh

In response to a new report from ERO, the Government has acknowledged the urgent need for consistency across the curriculum for Relationship and Sexuality Education (RSE) in schools. ...

Greens

2 weeks ago
Govt introduces archaic anti-worker legislation

The Green Party is appalled at the Government introducing legislation that will make it easier to penalise workers fighting for better pay and conditions. ...

Greens

2 weeks ago
Winston Peters – Kinleith Mill Speech

Thank you for the invitation to speak with you tonight on behalf of the political party I belong to - which is New Zealand First. As we have heard before this evening the Kinleith Mill is proposing to reduce operations by focusing on pulp and discontinuing “lossmaking paper production”. They say that they are currently consulting on the plan to permanently shut ...

NZ First Press Release

2 weeks ago
Swarbrick calls on Auckland Mayor to end delay of revival of St James Theatre

Auckland Central MP, Chlöe Swarbrick, has written to Mayor Wayne Brown requesting he stop the unnecessary delays on St James Theatre’s restoration. ...

Greens

2 weeks ago
He Ara Anamata: Greens launch Emissions Reduction Plan

Today, the Green Party of Aotearoa proudly unveils its new Emissions Reduction Plan–He Ara Anamata–a blueprint reimagining our collective future. ...

Greens

2 weeks ago

Internationally-trained doctors jump at chance to boost health workforce

Health Minister Dr Shane Reti says Health New Zealand will move swiftly to support dozens of internationally-trained doctors already in New Zealand on their journey to employment here, after a tripling of sought-after examination places. “The Medical Council has delivered great news for hardworking overseas doctors who want to contribute ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 hours ago
PM appoints business leader to APEC Business Advisory Council

Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has appointed Sarah Ottrey to the APEC Business Advisory Council (ABAC). “At my first APEC Summit in Lima, I experienced firsthand the role that ABAC plays in guaranteeing political leaders hear the voice of business,” Mr Luxon says. “New Zealand’s ABAC representatives are very well respected and ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

2 days ago
New intelligence oversight appointments

Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has announced four appointments to New Zealand’s intelligence oversight functions. The Honourable Robert Dobson KC has been appointed Chief Commissioner of Intelligence Warrants, and the Honourable Brendan Brown KC has been appointed as a Commissioner of Intelligence Warrants. The appointments of Hon Robert Dobson and Hon ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

2 days ago
New housing developments able to progress more quickly

Improvements in the average time it takes to process survey and title applications means housing developments can progress more quickly, Minister for Land Information Chris Penk says. “The government is resolutely focused on improving the building and construction pipeline,” Mr Penk says. “Applications to issue titles and subdivide land are ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

2 days ago
Actions to speed up air travel delivering results

The Government’s measures to reduce airport wait times, and better transparency around flight disruptions is delivering encouraging early results for passengers ahead of the busy summer period, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “Improving the efficiency of air travel is a priority for the Government to give passengers a smoother, more reliable ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

2 days ago
Ending contracted emergency housing in Rotorua

The Government today announced the intended closure of the Apollo Hotel as Contracted Emergency Housing (CEH) in Rotorua, Associate Housing Minister Tama Potaka says. This follows a 30 per cent reduction in the number of households in CEH in Rotorua since National came into Government. “Our focus is on ending CEH in the Whakarewarewa area starting ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

2 days ago
Vocational education and training decisions support return to regions

The Government will reshape vocational education and training to return decision making to regions and enable greater industry input into work-based learning Tertiary Education and Skills Minister, Penny Simmonds says. “The redesigned system will better meet the needs of learners, industry, and the economy. It includes re-establishing regional polytechnics that ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

2 days ago
Reducing the environmental impact of synthetic refrigerants

The Government is taking action to better manage synthetic refrigerants and reduce emissions caused by greenhouse gases found in heating and cooling products, Environment Minister Penny Simmonds says. “Regulations will be drafted to support a product stewardship scheme for synthetic refrigerants, Ms. Simmonds says. “Synthetic refrigerants are found in a ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

2 days ago
Ngāruawāhia section of Waikato Expressway back to 4 lanes for Christmas

People travelling on State Highway 1 north of Hamilton will be relieved that remedial works and safety improvements on the Ngāruawāhia section of the Waikato Expressway were finished today, with all lanes now open to traffic, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says.“I would like to acknowledge the patience of road users ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

2 days ago
Appointments to the ENZ board

Tertiary Education and Skills Minister, Penny Simmonds, has announced a new appointment to the board of Education New Zealand (ENZ). Dr Erik Lithander has been appointed as a new member of the ENZ board for a three-year term until 30 January 2028. “I would like to welcome Dr Erik Lithander to the ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

3 days ago
Government to celebrate Waitangi Day around NZ

The Government will have senior representatives at Waitangi Day events around the country, including at the Waitangi Treaty Grounds, but next year Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has chosen to take part in celebrations elsewhere. “It has always been my intention to celebrate Waitangi Day around the country with different ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

3 days ago
More gangs added to Gangs Act list

Two more criminal gangs will be subject to the raft of laws passed by the Coalition Government that give Police more powers to disrupt gang activity, and the intimidation they impose in our communities, Police Minister Mark Mitchell says. Following an Order passed by Cabinet, from 3 February 2025 the ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

3 days ago
Judicial appointment announced

Attorney-General Judith Collins today announced the appointment of Justice Christian Whata as a Judge of the Court of Appeal. Justice Whata’s appointment as a Judge of the Court of Appeal will take effect on 1 August 2025 and fill a vacancy created by the retirement of Hon Justice David Goddard on ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

3 days ago
GDP data highlights importance of growth

The latest economic figures highlight the importance of the steps the Government has taken to restore respect for taxpayers’ money and drive economic growth, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says. Data released today by Stats NZ shows Gross Domestic Product fell 1 per cent in the September quarter. “Treasury and most ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

3 days ago
Strengthening Free Speech in Universities

Tertiary Education and Skills Minister Penny Simmonds and Associate Minister of Education David Seymour today announced legislation changes to strengthen freedom of speech obligations on universities. “Freedom of speech is fundamental to the concept of academic freedom and there is concern that universities seem to be taking a more risk-averse ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

3 days ago
Launch of Emergency Cellular Priority Service

Police Minister, Mark Mitchell, and Internal Affairs Minister, Brooke van Velden, today launched a further Public Safety Network cellular service that alongside last year’s Cellular Roaming roll-out, puts globally-leading cellular communications capability into the hands of our emergency responders. The Public Safety Network’s new Cellular Priority service means Police, Wellington ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

3 days ago
Minister reopens Mangamuka Gorge

State Highway 1 through the Mangamuka Gorge has officially reopened today, providing a critical link for Northlanders and offering much-needed relief ahead of the busy summer period, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says.“The Mangamuka Gorge is a vital route for Northland, carrying around 1,300 vehicles per day and connecting the Far ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

3 days ago
Funding confirmed for second Ashburton Bridge

The Government has welcomed decisions by the NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) and Ashburton District Council confirming funding to boost resilience in the Canterbury region, with construction on a second Ashburton Bridge expected to begin in 2026, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “Delivering a second Ashburton Bridge to improve resilience and ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

3 days ago
Government boosts support for avian influenza response

The Government is backing the response into high pathogenic avian influenza (HPAI) in Otago, Biosecurity Minister Andrew Hoggard says. “Cabinet has approved new funding of $20 million to enable MPI to meet unbudgeted ongoing expenses associated with the H7N6 response including rigorous scientific testing of samples at the enhanced PC3 ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

3 days ago
Levelling the playing field for media advertising

Legislation that will repeal all advertising restrictions for broadcasters on Sundays and public holidays has passed through first reading in Parliament today, Media Minister Paul Goldsmith says. “As a growing share of audiences get their news and entertainment from streaming services, these restrictions have become increasingly redundant. New Zealand on ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
Inspector-General of Defence appointed

Today the House agreed to Brendan Horsley being appointed Inspector-General of Defence, Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith says. “Mr Horsley’s experience will be invaluable in overseeing the establishment of the new office and its support networks. “He is currently Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security, having held that role since June 2020. ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
Fire and Emergency New Zealand final levy rates confirmed

Minister of Internal Affairs Brooke van Velden says the Government has agreed to the final regulations for the levy on insurance contracts that will fund Fire and Emergency New Zealand from July 2026. “Earlier this year the Government agreed to a 2.2 percent increase to the rate of levy. Fire ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
More AML relief on the way for Kiwi businesses

The Government is delivering regulatory relief for New Zealand businesses through changes to the Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism Act. “The Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism Amendment Bill, which was introduced today, is the second Bill – the other being the Statutes Amendment Bill - that ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
Hawke’s Bay Expressway moving at pace

Transport Minister Simeon Brown has welcomed further progress on the Hawke’s Bay Expressway Road of National Significance (RoNS), with the NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) Board approving funding for the detailed design of Stage 1, paving the way for main works construction to begin in late 2025.“The Government is moving at ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
Government seeks partnerships to plant trees on Crown-owned-land

The Government today released a request for information (RFI) to seeking interest in partnerships to plant trees on Crown-owned land with low farming and conservation value (excluding National Parks) Forestry Minister Todd McClay announced. “Planting trees on Crown-owned land will drive economic growth by creating more forestry jobs in our regions, providing more wood ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
Wide ranging legislation to make justice system more efficient

Court timeliness, access to justice, and improving the quality of existing regulation are the focus of a series of law changes introduced to Parliament today by Associate Minister of Justice Nicole McKee. The three Bills in the Regulatory Systems (Justice) Amendment Bill package each improve a different part of the ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
Diverse skills in community trust appointments

A total of 41 appointments and reappointments have been made to the 12 community trusts around New Zealand that serve their regions, Associate Finance Minister Shane Jones says. “These trusts, and the communities they serve from the Far North to the deep south, will benefit from the rich experience, knowledge, ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
Torture redress for survivors of the Lake Alice Unit

The Government has confirmed how it will provide redress to survivors who were tortured at the Lake Alice Psychiatric Hospital Child and Adolescent Unit (the Lake Alice Unit). “The Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in Care found that many of the 362 children who went through the Lake Alice Unit between 1972 and ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
A busy year in the House

It has been a busy, productive year in the House as the coalition Government works hard to get New Zealand back on track, Leader of the House Chris Bishop says. “This Government promised to rebuild the economy, restore law and order and reduce the cost of living. Our record this ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
Consultation opens on working with engineered stone

“Accelerated silicosis is an emerging occupational disease caused by unsafe work such as engineered stone benchtops. I am running a standalone consultation on engineered stone to understand what the industry is currently doing to manage the risks, and whether further regulatory intervention is needed,” says Workplace Relations and Safety Minister ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
Greater reporting on Treaty settlement commitments

Mehemea he pai mō te tangata, mahia – if it’s good for the people, get on with it. Enhanced reporting on the public sector’s delivery of Treaty settlement commitments will help improve outcomes for Māori and all New Zealanders, Māori Crown Relations Minister Tama Potaka says. Compiled together for the ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
New appointments to the Charities Registration Board

Mr Roger Holmes Miller and Ms Tarita Hutchinson have been appointed to the Charities Registration Board, Community and Voluntary Sector Minister Louise Upston says. “I would like to welcome the new members joining the Charities Registration Board. “The appointment of Ms Hutchinson and Mr Miller will strengthen the Board’s capacity ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
Building consent processing times improve

More building consent and code compliance applications are being processed within the statutory timeframe since the Government required councils to submit quarterly data, Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk says. “In the midst of a housing shortage we need to look at every step of the build process for efficiencies ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
Faster access to support through Innovation Fund

Mental Health Minister Matt Doocey is proud to announce the first three recipients of the Government’s $10 million Mental Health and Addiction Community Sector Innovation Fund which will enable more Kiwis faster access to mental health and addiction support. “This fund is part of the Government’s commitment to investing in ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
New Zealand to assist Vanuatu on earthquake response

New Zealand is providing Vanuatu assistance following yesterday's devastating earthquake, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says. "Vanuatu is a member of our Pacific family and we are supporting it in this time of acute need," Mr Peters says. "Our thoughts are with the people of Vanuatu, and we will be ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
Government takes steps to reduce card fees for Kiwis

The Government welcomes the Commerce Commission’s plan to reduce card fees for Kiwis by an estimated $260 million a year, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly says.“The Government is relentlessly focused on reducing the cost of living, so Kiwis can keep more of their hard-earned income and live a ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
Review recommends ECE regulation shakeup

Regulation Minister David Seymour has welcomed the Early Childhood Education (ECE) regulatory review report, the first major report from the Ministry for Regulation. The report makes 15 recommendations to modernise and simplify regulations across ECE so services can get on with what they do best – providing safe, high-quality care ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
Offshore Renewable Energy Bill passes first reading

The Government‘s Offshore Renewable Energy Bill to create a new regulatory regime that will enable firms to construct offshore wind generation has passed its first reading in Parliament, Energy Minister Simeon Brown says.“New Zealand currently does not have a regulatory regime for offshore renewable energy as the previous government failed ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 days ago
Local Government (Water Services) Bill passes first reading

Legislation to enable new water service delivery models that will drive critical investment in infrastructure has passed its first reading in Parliament, marking a significant step towards the delivery of Local Water Done Well, Local Government Minister Simeon Brown and Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly say.“Councils and voters ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 days ago
Gene Technology Bill passes first reading

New Zealand is one step closer to reaping the benefits of gene technology with the passing of the first reading of the Gene Technology Bill, Science, Innovation and Technology Minister Judith Collins says. "This legislation will end New Zealand's near 30-year ban on gene technology outside the lab and is ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 days ago

Signs of the hīkoi: More than just ‘words on cardboard’

The placards seen at the Hīkoi mō Te Tiriti conveyed "huge kōrero with immediacy", expert says: "People know the power of the word." ...

Radio NZ – political

16 minutes ago
A final Ode to .. King Luxon

Cosmic CatastropheThe year draws to a close.King Luxon has grown tired of the long eveningsListening to the dreary squabbling of his Triumvirate.He strolls up to the top floor of the PalaceTo consult with his Astronomer Royal.The Royal Telescope scans the skies,And King Luxon stares up into the heavensFrom the terrestrial ...

NewsroomBy Victor Billot

8 hours ago
A hater and an enthusiast review The Royal Free by Carl Shuker

Spinoff editor Mad Chapman and books editor Claire Mabey debate Carl Shuker’s new novel about… an editor. Claire: Hello Mad, you just finished The Royal Free – overall impressions? Mad: Hi Claire, I literally just put the book down and I would have to say my immediate impression is ...

The SpinoffBy Claire Mabey

9 hours ago
Survive to 25 (December, that is)

Christmas and its buildup are often lonely, hard and full of unreasonable expectations. Here’s how to make it to Jesus’s birthday and find the little bit of joy we all deserve. Have you found this year relentless? Has the latest Apple update “fucked up your life”? Have you lost two ...

The SpinoffBy Anna Rawhiti-Connell

9 hours ago
All I want for Christmas is modern day slavery legislation

Despite overwhelming public and corporate support, the government has stalled progress on a modern day slavery law. That puts us behind other countries – and makes Christmas a time of tragedy rather than joy, argues Shanti Mathias. Picture the scene on Christmas Day. Everyone replete with nice things to eat, ...

The SpinoffBy Shanti Mathias

9 hours ago
Israeli-American historian describes attacks on Gaza as ‘war of annihilation’

Asia Pacific Report “It looks like Hiroshima. It looks like Germany at the end of World War Two,” says an Israeli-American historian and professor of holocaust and genocide studies at Brown University about the horrifying reality of Gaza. Professor Omer Bartov, has described Israel’s ongoing war on Gaza as an ...

Evening ReportBy Asia Pacific Report

12 hours ago
NZ govt plans to make ‘heavy handed’ change to free speech rules for universities

The New Zealand government coalition is tweaking university regulations to curb what it says is an increasingly “risk-averse approach” to free speech. The proposed changes will set clear expectations on how universities should approach freedom of speech issues. Each university will then have to adopt a “freedom of speech statement” ...

Evening ReportBy Asia Pacific Report

12 hours ago
Caitlin Johnstone: Where does the aggression really begin?

Report by Dr David Robie – Café Pacific. – COMMENTARY: By Caitlin Johnstone New York prosecutors have charged Luigi Mangione with “murder as an act of terrorism” in his alleged shooting of health insurance CEO Brian Thompson earlier this month. This news comes out at the same time as ...

Evening ReportBy David Robie

15 hours ago
OECD Report Highlights That More Is Needed

This report reflects that gap in our dealings overseas, and it shows that legislators, the public sector and businesses need to walk the talk. ...

Scoop politics

24 hours ago
Government quietly scraps waste minimisation policies

The government has quietly cancelled plans to improve recycling and roll out a kerbside food scraps composting scheme. ...

Radio NZ – political

24 hours ago
MEAA welcomes News MAP funding ‘leg up’ for Australian journalism

Pacific Media Watch The union for Australian journalists has welcomed the delivery by the federal government of more than $150 million to support the sustainability of public interest journalism over the next four years. Combined with the announcement of the revamped News Bargaining Initiative, this could result in up to ...

Evening ReportBy Asia Pacific Report

1 day ago
Transmission Gully partnership breakdown will not hurt future public-private partnerships, Infrastru...

The roads partnership unravelled under a confidential settlement this week, meaning NZTA will now finish off what it had said was incomplete work. ...

Radio NZ – political

1 day ago
Funding cuts to charity particularly felt over Christmas period

The number of people seeking help from Lifeline is expected to increase by 10 to 20 percent over Christmas. ...

Radio NZ – political

1 day ago
Nelson Hospital conditions ‘unbearable’ – staff

One worker says the building is decrepit and falling down around them. ...

Radio NZ – political

1 day ago
The Secret Diary of .. Luxon at Xmas

MONDAY“Merry Xmas, and praise the Lord,” said Sheriff Luxon, and smiled for the camera. There was a flash of smoke when the shutter pressed down on the magnesium powder. The sheriff had arranged for a photographer from the Dodge Gazette to attend a ceremony where he handed out food parcels to ...

NewsroomBy Steve Braunias

1 day ago
Stand by for cricket’s Smash Palace

It’s a little under two months since the White Ferns shocked the cricketing world, deservedly taking home the T20 World Cup. Since then the trophy has had a tour around the country, five of the squad have played in the WBBL in Australia while most others have returned to domestic ...

NewsroomBy Aiden McLaughlin

1 day ago
Early-onset dementia under the microscope

Comment: If we say the word ‘dementia’, many will picture an older person struggling to remember the names of their loved ones, maybe a grandparent living out their final years in an aged care facility. Dementia can also occur in people younger than 65, but it can take time before ...

NewsroomBy Shruti Sharma and Dr Brigid Ryan

1 day ago
Keeping the pirates at bay: Should the Australian ‘Blocking Order’ case prompt a discussion in N...

Piracy is a reality of modern life – but copyright law has struggled to play catch-up for as long as the entertainment industry has existed. As far back as 1988, the House of Lords criticised copyright law’s conflict with the reality of human behaviour in the context of burning cassette ...

NewsroomBy Tania Goatley and Oscar Zambuto

1 day ago
‘We were as famous as Tom Cruise’: Craig Parker on 90s Shortland St fandom

As he makes a surprise return to Shortland Street, actor Craig Parker takes us through his life in television. Craig Parker has been a fixture on television in Aotearoa for nearly four decades. He had starring roles in iconic local series like Gloss, Mercy Peak and Diplomatic Immunity, featured in ...

The SpinoffBy My Life in TV

1 day ago
‘I prioritise the mission, not my health’: Adam McGrath’s perfect weekend playlist

The Ōtautahi musician shares the 10 tracks he loves to spin, including the folk classic that cured him of a ‘case of the give-ups’. When singer-songwriter Adam McGrath returns to Kumeu’s Auckland Folk Festival from January 24-27, he’s not planning on simply idling his way through – he wants the late ...

The SpinoffBy Weekend playlist

1 day ago
The rescue dog bringing joy to Christchurch retirement homes

Alex Casey spends an afternoon on the job with River, the rescue dog on a mission to spread joy to Ōtautahi rest homes. Almost everyone says it is never enough time. But River the rescue dog, a jet black huntaway border collie cross, has to keep a tight pace to ...

The SpinoffBy Alex Casey

1 day ago
Fiji pro-Palestine nativity scene exposes Gaza as ‘hell on earth’ at Christmas

Asia Pacific Report Fiji activists have recreated the nativity scene at a solidarity for Palestine gathering in Fiji’s capital Suva just days before Christmas. The Fiji Women’s Crisis Centre and Fijians for Palestine Solidarity Network recreated the scene at the FWCC compound — a baby Jesus figurine lies amidst the ...

Evening ReportBy Asia Pacific Report

2 days ago
Vanuatu quake: ‘Our shop was flattened like a deck of cards’

By 1News Pacific correspondent Barbara Dreaver and 1News reporters A number of Kiwis have been successfully evacuated from Vanuatu after a devastating earthquake shook the Pacific island nation earlier this week. The death toll was still unclear, though at least 14 people were killed according to an earlier statement from ...

Evening ReportBy Asia Pacific Report

2 days ago
How diplomats have broken the law in NZ – and what happened next

A handful of foreign diplomats have misbehaved during their time here - and not all of them have been brought to justice. ...

Radio NZ – political

2 days ago
Swim schools report sinking enrolments as downturn deepens

Being able to swim is often considered a life skill, but tough economic times are forcing many families to pull their children out of lessons. ...

Radio NZ – political

2 days ago
‘There will be deaths because of this’ – Warning over Health NZ IT cuts

A West Coast IT worker is warning patients will die as Health New Zealand aims to slash its data and digital staff. ...

Radio NZ – political

2 days ago
Polytech sales possible but unlikely when Te Pūkenga disestablished – minister

In a surprise move, the sale of polytechnics will be on the table when the national institute of technology Te Pūkenga is disestablished. ...

Radio NZ – political

2 days ago
Parliament’s final sitting day an insight into party factions

On Parliament's last day of the year, there was a rare glimpse of the factions within the major parties. ...

Radio NZ – political

2 days ago
Former Labour MP, North Shore mayor Ann Hartley dies

Former Labour MP and mayor of Auckland's North Shore City Ann Hartley has died. ...

Radio NZ – political

2 days ago
The closest thing Australian cartooning had to a prophet: the sometimes celebrated, sometimes contro...

Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Richard Scully, Professor in Modern History, University of New England Bunker. Image courtesy of Michael Leunig, CC BY-NC-SA Michael Leunig – who died in the early hours of Thursday December 19, surrounded by “his children, loved ones, and sunflowers” – was the ...

Evening ReportBy The Conversation

2 days ago
Labour moves Speaker from the ‘nice’ to ‘naughty’ list

Last week's fights with the Speaker over the Fast Track schedule may have changed the tone in Parliament. ...

Radio NZ – political

2 days ago
Govt ends pilot programme for Māori and Pacific, sparking outrage

The Government announced the end of the programme that allowed Māori and Pacific people to acess bowel cancer screening at 50-years-old. ...

Radio NZ – political

2 days ago
Parliament fits an extra morning into final sitting day

The House - On Parliament's last day of the year, there was the rare occurrence of a personal (conscience) vote on selling booze over the Easter weekend. While it didn't have the numbers to pass, it was a chance to get a rare glimpse of the fact ...

Radio NZ – political

2 days ago
The Friday Poem: ‘Bejeweled log’ by Holly Fletcher

A new poem by Holly Fletcher. bejeweled log i was dreaming about wasps / wee darlings that followed me / ducking under objects / that i was fated to pickup / my fingers seeking / and meeting with tiny proboscis’s / but instead / i wake up / roll sideways ...

The SpinoffBy Holly Fletcher

2 days ago
Sunglasses don’t just look good – they’re good for you too. Here’s how to choose the right p...

Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Flora Hui, Research Fellow, Centre for Eye Research Australia and Honorary Fellow, Department of Surgery (Ophthalmology), The University of Melbourne Versta/Shutterstock Australians are exposed to some of the highest levels of solar ultraviolet (UV) radiation in the world. While we ...

Evening ReportBy The Conversation

2 days ago
How does franchising work?

Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Andrew Terry, Professor of Business Regulation, University of Sydney Michael von Aichberger/Shutterstock Even if you’ve no idea how the business model underpinning franchises works, there’s a good chance you’ve spent money at one. Franchising is essentially a strategy for cloning ...

Evening ReportBy The Conversation

2 days ago
The one episode of Shortland Street you need to watch this year

If something big is going to happen in Ferndale, it’s going to happen at Christmas. This is an excerpt from our weekly pop culture newsletter Rec Room. Sign up here. If there’s one episode of Shortland Street you should watch each year, it’s the annual Christmas cliffhanger. The final episode of ...

The SpinoffBy Tara Ward

2 days ago
As China expands its cyber espionage and sabotage operations, how will the Trump administration resp...

Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By William A. Stoltz, Lecturer and expert Associate, National Security College, Australian National University US President-elect Donald Trump has named most of the members of his proposed cabinet. However, he’s yet to reveal key appointees to America’s powerful cyber warfare and intelligence institutions. ...

Evening ReportBy The Conversation

2 days ago
The Unity Books bestseller chart for 2024

Announcing the top 10 books of the the year at Unity Books’ stores in High St, Auckland, and Willis St, Wellington. AUCKLAND 1 Intermezzo by Sally Rooney (Faber & Faber, $37) The phenomenal Irish writer is the unsurprising chart topper for 2024 with her fourth novel that, much like her first ...

The SpinoffBy The Spinoff Review of Books

2 days ago
Government confirms plan to dismantle Te Pūkenga, re-establish polytechs

The government has confirmed its plan to break up Te Pūkenga / New Zealand Institute of Skills and Technology and re-establish independent polytechnics. ...

Radio NZ – political

2 days ago

Key still wishes we had invaded Iraq

Related Posts

158 comments on “Key still wishes we had invaded Iraq ”

Links to post

Recent Comments

Recent Posts

Related Posts

Related Posts

Related Posts

Related Posts

Key still wishes we had invaded Iraq

Share this:

Related Posts

158 comments on “Key still wishes we had invaded Iraq ”

Links to post

Recent Comments

Recent Posts

Share this:

Related Posts

Share this:

Related Posts

Share this:

Related Posts

Share this:

Related Posts