Key still wishes we had invaded Iraq

Written By: Steve Pierson - Date published: 6:45 am, September 18th, 2008 - 158 comments
Categories: election 2008, International, john key, same old national - Tags:

Helen Clark made foreign policy judgement a campaign issue today when she told a Grey Power meeting that if New Zealand had invaded Iraq with the US as John Key wanted we would have lost up to 60 soldiers*. Through a spokesman, John Key said “the claim of 60 dead is hysterical and desperate”.

I can’t help noticing that Key isn’t denying that if he had his way we would be in Iraq and soldiers would have died. Instead, he made a misogynist personal attack (yes, it is misogynist, look up hysteria).

Remember, Key is the man who cried we were ‘missing in action in Iraq’. He is the man who said the “war in Iraq is over” a year ago (since then at the very least 7000 people have been killed and tens of thousands maimed). His caucus is stacked with pro-US hardliners like Lockwood Smith and Simon Power, who said we should go to war wherever the US and UK lead and pay our ‘fair share’ in soldiers’ lives. Can we trust Key and this mob not to lead us into the US’s next military disaster?

*[Clark got 60 by calculating our population compared to the US and the US’s losses in Iraq – nearly every nation that helped invade Iraq has lost soldiers, some at much higher rates than the US. Australia got off light with one non-combat death because they didn’t have many combat troops there. Full Iraq causality numbers here]

158 comments on “Key still wishes we had invaded Iraq ”

Comments are now closed

monkey boy 1

18 September 2008 at 6:55 am

I’m confused. Does this fall under ‘negative’ or ‘dirty’ campaigning?
Billy 2

18 September 2008 at 7:07 am

Steve, you’re sounding a bit hysterical yourself. And I do not mean that in a sexist way.
monkey boy 3

18 September 2008 at 7:23 am

At the risk of you coming across all ‘Elaiane Showalter’, I think when the PM can make up a number of dead ‘on the back of an envelope’ as an accusation against the opposition and then you can run a headline supporting that fantasy number, purporting to have an inner knowledge of Key’s ‘wishes’.
That’s just making stuff up as you go along, isn’t it?
Bryan Spondre 4

18 September 2008 at 7:34 am

“I can’t help noticing that Key isn’t denying that if he had his way ”

Reaching Steve, reaching. Clearly the left must really fear the popularity that John Key has in the electorate.

DPF has an excellent repudiation of Helen Clark’s calculation and demonstrates the likely number is 1 death and even less likely if we had been involved only in the invasion. American deaths were very low during the invasion, around 140 I believe.
higherstandard 5

18 September 2008 at 7:36 am

You’ve got to give the PM credit.

She knows WP’s vote base is wavering and she’s working their fears and prejudices hard. I wonder if she’s prepared to go down the “yellow peril” route as well.

By the way your misogynist line’s getting a bit tired.
vto 6

18 September 2008 at 7:40 am

Clark is deceptively clever at deception.

IMO her calculation ‘on the back of the envelope’ and coming up with 60 was dishonest and deceitful. There are many ways in which such a ‘back of the envelope’ calculation could be made. example – her calculation compared to troops employed had NZ then sending 15,000 troops to Iraq. Ha, what a freaking joke. She just knew it would make a good headline.

Just like her deceit over Winston Bjeikle-Peterson and his own deceit, this again paints her as absolutely no different to most any other politician who makes up shit to grab a headline.

Oh well, at least she’s consistent – in under-estimating the smarts of most NZers who would call it for the bullshit it was. Maybe that has something to do with the longish term decline in her fortunes.

She is a deceiver of the most deceptive kind.
Andrew 7

18 September 2008 at 7:41 am

For goodness sake, Labour sent troups to Iraq and there were no deaths. Now before you say that was because it was after the initial invasion force, the inital invasion was the safest time to be there. In the time that NZ was there was one of the most dangerous times to be there.

please stop your hysterical spin campain and get your facts right.

We have had 4 soldiers killed in east teamor, one or which, leonard manning, was a close personal friend of mine from Te Kauwhata!

There are lies, damn lies and statistics. You spin them the way you want without looking at all the facts! grow up!
Ted 8

18 September 2008 at 7:50 am

Is Helen Clark on large doses of psychotropic medications?
max 9

18 September 2008 at 8:00 am

[Tane: We’re not going to host that kind of homophobic bile.]
John 10

18 September 2008 at 8:03 am

The smell of desperation is overwhelming.

“Key still wishes’? where has he said that?- oh, no denial. That proves it then?

“misogynist personal attack’. Well I took you invitation and looked it up. Is this the reference you are referring to in your link?

“The term hysteria was coined by Hippocrates, who thought that suffocation and madness arose in women whose uteri had become too light and dry from lack of sexual intercourse and, as a result, wandered upward, compressing the heart, lungs, and diaphragm.’

“60 dead’? Aussies casuality ratio is .01% -assuming NZ sent 8% of our armed forces (or 770 troops) we may just be treating one of them for a broken arm.

The poor oldies having to hear all that BS, when all they should care about is the 400 deaths per annum on NZ hospital waiting lists
max 11

18 September 2008 at 8:09 am

Nice one Tane: THere was NO homophobic bile there, but if it makes you feel better about censoring a valid point of view buddy.
max 12

18 September 2008 at 8:11 am

You care to replace the post with the ‘homophobic bile’ blanked out so everyone can see the ‘homophobic’ context?

LOL – you people are jokes.
max 13

18 September 2008 at 8:13 am

Bt I forgot, the new anti-key ‘strategy’ (big word for a bully boy tactic) is to brand him a mysoginist homophobe.
Tane 14

18 September 2008 at 8:15 am

Max. Other commenters write dissenting points of view here without being moderated, and there is clearly no shortage of right-wing points of view on this site. Your overstepped the mark with your homophobic filth. Stop acting like you’re a free speech martyr.
max 15

18 September 2008 at 8:20 am

There wasnt one iota of ‘homophobic’ filth in my post – if there was you would have reprinted it.

You just didnt like how close to the bone my analysis was.

[Tane: There will be no more correspondence on this matter. Clean up your act or you will be banned.]
Stephen 16

18 September 2008 at 8:24 am

“Key still wishes we had invaded Iraq”

Where the hell did he say that? Did he even say it?!
vto 17

18 September 2008 at 8:33 am

good bit of biffo there
ak 18

18 September 2008 at 8:40 am

No wonder the frothers are sensitive over this one: there is no doubt whatsoever that if Key had been PM at the time, New Zealand would have become part of the “coalition of the willing” and our country indelibly branded on the lists of various fanatics.

The brutal deaths of family members is remembered for generations: but for Helen Clark’s maturity and principle, our children and their children’s children would have been potential targets of terrorism forever.

In an uncertain world the last person we want in charge is a green, hollow, flip-flopping money trader with the gravitas of a wet tissue.
monkey-boy 19

18 September 2008 at 8:44 am

Oh, I get it now. Thanks ak.
vto 20

18 September 2008 at 8:46 am

but ak how does clark sending our troops to both iraq and afghanistan with consequent risk of becoming a more high profile terrorism target fit in your partisan summation?
Pascal's bookie 21

18 September 2008 at 9:04 am

vto, I think most can see the difference between Iraq and Afghanistan.

Most can also tell the difference between the invasion of Iraq, the UN authorised window that we were in there for, and the later occupation that flared up seriously in 06.

Hope that’s not too partisan.
Andrew 22

18 September 2008 at 9:06 am

ak – according to the United Nations we are on a list of contries that have been fighting the war in Iraq.

What do you have to say to that? … once again, please get your facts right before sprouting off about a subject you know nothing about.

[lprent: Not quite. We are on the list of countries that are doing work in Iraq. In this case after the UN requested help (post-invasion) with critical infrastructure, we sent over EME’s (engineers). I think (from memory) they were repairing water systems.

We did not help invade or occupy Iraq as part of the coalition of the terminal brown noses.

“please get your facts right before sprouting off about a subject you know nothing about.”
Yes well…..]
Brett dale 23

18 September 2008 at 9:07 am

First off it was disgusting that she used fear tactics and an insult to anyone who has fought for their country.

Secondly to make up a number by population is just bad math. The American troops have been doing most of the fighting, thats why their death toll is around 4000.

Taking Aunty Helen’s attempt at math’s, the Australian death toll should be at around 240?

How many Australians have been killed in Iraq?
Scribe 24

18 September 2008 at 9:09 am

The smell of desperation is overwhelming.

‘Nuff said.

captcha: arrested $50,000 (no, it was $100k)
Steve Pierson 25

18 September 2008 at 9:17 am

brett you can haggle over the numbers if you like. the Aussies lost 1 would that be ok with you? The Estonians two, Denmark 7… how many dead is ok by you brett? Because, like Key, you seem fixated on the number, not the idea we should have sent soldiers to die.
Inventory2 26

18 September 2008 at 9:18 am

Ignoring the fact that John Key wouldn’t have been PM had National won in 2005, do you have the actual quote of Key saying this Steve? Or are you using the back of an envelope as well?

Meanwhile, who said “This is an election about trust”? The same person who makes up figures on the hoof.
Felix 27

18 September 2008 at 9:19 am

Are the special needs schools having a day off today or something?

You all know very well Key would have had us join the invasion of Iraq. You all know he’ll have us join the next international disaster too.

It’s not a case of reading between the lines either – he said it and he’s never revised that wish (except to say it’s no longer an issue).

So why don’t you all just come out and say you agree with him that we should have been in Iraq all along?
vto 28

18 September 2008 at 9:20 am

the invasion of iraq sukked. humanity at its worst.
travellerev 29

18 September 2008 at 9:29 am

Good to see all the trollers out in full force and showing their ignorance in its full glory once again.

I would love to know the contents of John Key’s portfolio. I wonder if he has Halliburton, Raetheon or Boeing shares to name a few of the profitable war crime corporations.

Of course little footsoldier to the privatly owned banking elite John Key would have loved to partake in both wars. That’s how bankers make most of their profits.
They financed both sides in WW I and II and it is very much the MO of the international privately owned banking cartel.

Helen Clark’s number of casualties is of course purely speculative but chances are that the number she mentions is actually on the low side.
Helen Clark makes a case for this number but what she does not acknowledge is the contamination with “Depleted” Uranium which is making tens of thousands of US troops ill while their casualties do not appear in the official figures.

Both Iraq and Afghanistan are contaminated with more than 2000 tons each of ceramic DU nanoparticles causing massive increases in cancer, Leukaemia and child deformities. It isn’t just humans but animals and plant life is affected and will be for the next ooh 4.5 billion years. Ooops, that is as long as the earth has existed so that would mean until the end of times. And don’t worry guys it will come home to NZ with our troops. Wait for the first rapports of deformities. I have heard of one already.
Inventory2 30

18 September 2008 at 9:33 am

travellerev said “And don’t worry guys it will come home to NZ with our troops. Wait for the first rapports of deformities. I have heard of one already.”

So it’s true then – Helen Clark did send troops to Iraq?
Tim Ellis 31

18 September 2008 at 9:41 am

Good on you SP. I do like a good wind-up in the morning.

Helen Clark’s claim was silly and preposterous. It was as close to your own definition of dirty campaigning that you can get. The numbers were a bald-faced lie. It’s as credible as John Key saying: “If aliens had invaded New Zealand during Helen Clark’s term of office, then she would have welcomed them, and they would have infected the population with disease and wiped out half of New Zealand. If aliens had arrived, Helen Clark would have the blood of millions on her hands.”

That claim is as credible as Helen Clark’s yesterday. I think it is just filthy to go to a Grey Power meeting and scare-monger elderly like that. Elderly people have an expectation that when the Prime Minister turns up, she is going to put forward the truth. They treat her with respect, as they do all visitors. There isn’t a shred of truth to what Helen Clark said yesterday. Not a single media report gave her credit for it. I suspect if she continues to behave like that, she is going to lose even more credibility with the media.

SP, there is also no evidence that John Key was being mysogynist. That is an hysterical argument from you. It was very, very weak. That John Key didn’t deny it is not confirmation. Plenty of authors of the Standard have been accused of things, which has not been confirmed or denied. I suspect that is because the accusations have been so baseless that they aren’t worthy of the dignity of a response.

Helen Clark’s claim was so baseless, John Key didn’t need to dignify it with a response.
Tim Ellis 32

18 September 2008 at 9:45 am

SP said:

brett you can haggle over the numbers if you like. the Aussies lost 1 would that be ok with you? The Estonians two, Denmark 7 how many dead is ok by you brett? Because, like Key, you seem fixated on the number, not the idea we should have sent soldiers to die.

Are you saying SP that we shouldn’t send soldiers anywhere? It is inevitable that if we send soldiers into conflict, there is a risk of death. We’ve lost soldiers in Timor. Helen Clark willingly committed soldiers to Timor, where we still have troops. Does that mean Helen Clark has blood on her hands SP?

[i’m not arguing all military action is wrong or that it is never worth risking soldiers’ lives, but the vast majority of kiwis didn’t think that iraq was one of those times. SP]
Andrew 33

18 September 2008 at 9:55 am

“Helen Clark willingly committed soldiers to Timor, where we still have troops. Does that mean Helen Clark has blood on her hands SP”

Game, Set …. Match!
vto 34

18 September 2008 at 9:56 am

Tim Ellis, clark and labour have a history of putting fear into the vulnerable. witness the ‘eviction notices’ to tenants last election. Now this to scare the elderly. Disgusting.

Keep the public in fear ay. Keeps them on side. Interesting to see clark following bush’s lead.
travellerev 35

18 September 2008 at 10:00 am

Inventory2,

The US bombed the hell out of Afghanistan with some 2000 tons of DU in October 2001 before going in and has continued to do so during the entire war. The official story is that New Zealand only send troops to Afghanistan but according to Iprent New Zealand also send civilians to Iraq to help with the rebuilding of the country.

I have also been told by an ex-military New Zealander that about three hundred ex military have been send to Iraq to train alongside US marines in the recent dÃ©tente between NZ and the US. He also told me that he knew some 60 of those personally.

I don’t know about the validity of that claim but I referred to the Afghanistan based troops only.

Helen Clark has no real control over that part of the NZ foreign policy though. She gets her orders from London and the crown on that one. At least that’s my take on it.

[lprent: we sent military. The EME’s are the army engineers. Easy enough to lookup I’d guess look around http://army.mil.nz. We sent them in about 2003 ? They were under the protection of the Brits in the south. They were sent afte rthe UN asked for assistance in getting critical infrastructure up and running again after it’d been bombed.]
Steve Pierson 36

18 September 2008 at 10:00 am

Andrew. my argument is not a pacifist one. i don’t believe all military action is wrong by definition and with miitary action comes the liklihod of loss of life. that’s actually what most people think – sometimes sending our boys in is the right thing to do and fingers crossed they all come back but key is happy to lose lives for the US invasion of iraq, and that’s where he parts ways with most kiwis.
Pascal's bookie 37

18 September 2008 at 10:03 am

Tim you seem very defensive.

I understand that you would far rather that this campaign not be fought on issues of judgement, and that the National parties judgemnet with regard to this issue was appalling, but Helen Clark did not lie.

You can’t lie about hypotheticals, you can hypothesise though. Which is all she did

So, not surprisingly, your sophistry once again is dishonest, and it is you that is lying.

Your mad arse counter theory about aliens falls flat because there was, in fact, an invasion of Iraq, and if we had of had a National government we would have been there, and in all likelyhood stayed there throughout the occupation.

We know this, because that is what the National party said.

They said we were ‘missing in action’ and that ‘where America goes, we should go’.

That is not a popular position these days and so you don’t like people talking about it, but untill the National party explain why they have changed their minds and give us reason to trust their judgement, which is what this is about, then your bluster remains just a diversionary tactic that everyone sees through like a in hole a ladder.
bill brown 38

18 September 2008 at 10:15 am

Tim,

I’d be interested to know what your ratio of number of NZ troops killed in Iraq would be to the security of supply of oil into US refineries.

Would 1 NZ soldier dead to no increase in security be OK?

Would 1 NZ soldier “with a broken arm” to no increase in security be OK?
vto 39

18 September 2008 at 10:17 am

P’s B clark deceived those grey power folk (or rather tried to deceive) with her ridiculous assumption. And she knows it. That is as close to lying as you can get without strictly ‘lying’.

dirty. negative. deceptive.
the sprout 40

18 September 2008 at 10:17 am

“Key still wishes we had invaded Iraq’

He must think there’s some short-term profit to be made.
And who said he was more like Bush than Obama?
Brett Dale 41

18 September 2008 at 10:24 am

Steve:

Because Aunty Helen gave a false number as a estimate to shock people and get more votes, it was a sick thing to do just to garner more votes.
Dom 42

18 September 2008 at 10:27 am

Tim, you cannot compare Iraq and Timor. Those of us who have lost relatives in this US led invasion of Iraq find that comparison vile.
RedLogix 43

18 September 2008 at 10:28 am

Again travellerev hits a vital point; the fact that HC’s ‘back of envelope’ calculation uses an artificially low figure for US Iraqi war casualties in the first place. The US have been using a range of dishonest methods to downplay the real number right from the outset; but alongside this is even more wrenching tragedy of those who return home severely crippled and maimed.

One aspect of the Iraq war is that soldiers who would have died on their injuries in WW2 or even Vietnam, are now because of the new body armour, improved evacutation and treatment options, are ‘surviving’ to return home alive, but profoundly brain damaged.

Another astounding aspect has been the suicide rates among returned Iraqi vets. How deeply traumatic must it be to realise that was your tour of service in Iraq was legally and morally wrong; that far from being of any use, you were hated by the Iraqi people.

And again as trav reminds us, the whole DU issue will not go away. There is just far too much evidence that something very evil has happened here, and one day we will no longer be able to deny it.
Pascal's bookie 44

18 September 2008 at 10:28 am

vto, It’s about judgement. I think those “grey power folk ” understand that. Whose judgement was right, whose was wrong, and whose can we trust. The National party has given me no reason to trust theirs.
Andrew 45

18 September 2008 at 10:29 am

“lprent: we sent military. The EME’s are the army engineers”

Yes we did send engineers as well as soldiers. The point i was trying to make to ak, was that Islamic fundamentalists will not see the difference between other troops and our ‘engineers’ as we are foreign soldiers on thier soil. They obviously don’t hate us as much as the americans or brits, but we were still there in their country. So that makes us a target as well … a very, very unlikely target, but a target in the eyes of some all the same.

I know a few soldiers that were in Iraq and as well as engineers, they did in fact engage in direct fighting when the need arose. they were by no means on the front line, but fighting and shooting at people none the less.

So all i was trying to say was it is disgusting that Helen used our brave troops as pawns in her political campaign of fear against John Key.

Negative, or dirty? you decide.
r0b 46

18 September 2008 at 10:34 am

It’s as credible as John Key saying: “If aliens had invaded New Zealand during Helen Clark’s term of office, then she would have welcomed them, and they would have infected the population with disease and wiped out half of New Zealand. If aliens had arrived, Helen Clark would have the blood of millions on her hands.’ That claim is as credible as Helen Clark’s yesterday.

Is it Tim? Perhaps you should buy yourself a tinfoil hat. Those aliens might be out to get you.

Meanwhile back in the real world Iraq is a moral, social, military (and for the US financial) fiasco that NZ did very well to stay out of.

I think it is just filthy to go to a Grey Power meeting and scare-monger elderly like that.

She was very well received Tim, with applause for her comments on Iraq. Nice of you to get all upset on their behalf, but I think Grey Power can make up their own minds, don’t you? Or perhaps your aliens are using their mind control beams on them?
RedLogix 47

18 September 2008 at 10:43 am

So all i was trying to say was it is disgusting that Helen used our brave troops as pawns in her political campaign of fear against John Key.

Why? The simple fact is that if New Zealand had sent a useful sized contingent of combat troops into Iraq… as John Key said he would have done…. we would have had combat deaths. If we had sent say 1000 troops, simple calculations suggest maybe 30 to 60 body bags, depending on the range of assumptions you make. There is no denying this. It was a perfectly reasonable thing to point out, that Mr Key’s stated position on Iraq had a logical consequence.

Or are you merely uncomfortable at having this pointed out to you?
rave 48

18 September 2008 at 10:51 am

Is this statement by Clark ‘negative or dirty’?
Neither. The war is dirty, pointing that out is positive.
The Nats are dirty for wanting to fight in wars for oil for profits. Even Greenspan acknowledged that the war in Iraq was for oil.
That statement is not negative, its positive, because its advancing the position that this is a dirty war and should be stopped.
What’s positive? That US invaders are getting killed. What would be more positive? That the US ruling class that profits from this war should be conscripted to put their lives and their money where their mouths are.
If Key, Power and Co want NZ to get involved in wars for oil for profit, they should be the first to be taxed to pay for them and the first to be drafted.
vto 49

18 September 2008 at 10:55 am

rave for once i agree with one of your points. those who make a decision to go to war must go and fight the war themselves as well.
Tim Ellis 50

18 September 2008 at 10:55 am

RedLogix, we didn’t have a thousand troops available to send to Iraq. It is beyond ludicrous to assume that our troops would have faced monumentally higher risks than Australia. We’ve lost more soldiers in Timor than Australia has in Iraq.
gobsmacked 51

18 September 2008 at 11:01 am

Of course a National government would have had blood on their hands, in an illegal, insane war. Innocent civilian blood.

I know, them Eye-raqis with funny names don’t count as human, but there you go.
r0b 52

18 September 2008 at 11:10 am

It is beyond ludicrous to assume that our troops would have faced monumentally higher risks than Australia.

Tell it to Denmark – they lost 7 times what Australia lost.

Risks depend on where troops are and how they are deployed. In previous wars NZ has had higher per capita death rates than other Commonwealth countries.
travellerev 53

18 September 2008 at 11:15 am

You know my father in law is 82 and completely up and running with politics and 911 etc. He doesn’t scare easily and takes his time researching topics we talk about on the internet and while he has a very respectable age his brain is in excellent shape.

What gets me on this thread is that the obvious Helen haters all claim that she scared witless semi senile oldies for political reasons.

From what I gather the people united in the Grey power group are astute, politically savvy and intend on having something to say on how this country is run and making sure their rights are protected.

To paint them as easily scared senile old sweeties is just disingenuous and patronising.

Andrew,

If what you say is true than Helen Clark and Phil Goff are involved in War crimes and an illegal war of aggression.

Let me make myself clear: Based on the fact that it was scientifically impossible for three steel framed buildings to have collapsed in freefall (11, 10 and 6.5 sec) speed due to the impact of just two Airplanes and based on the fact that the military grade incendiary explosive Nano Thermite has been found in ample amounts in dust of all three buildings that collapse on 911 I am of the opinion that 19 young Arabs (some of whom are still alive and whose “leader” Mohamed Atta loved cocaine, booze and lapdances, in fact he lived with a stripper for two months while “training” in Venice) could not have brought the three buildings down.

And with that the whole reason for being in Afghanistan is moot because it was after all Osama bin Laden we entered Afghanistan for, remember?
Tim Ellis 54

18 September 2008 at 11:30 am

Risks depend on where troops are and how they are deployed. In previous wars NZ has had higher per capita death rates than other Commonwealth countries.

That isn’t true, r0b. Our last major commitment, in Vietnam, saw NZ lose 40 soldiers to Australia’s 436. In the Korean War, NZ lost 43 to Australia’s 339. We lost more people as a proportion to Australia during the First and Second world wars, when we were under British command, but not since.

[come on Tim, you can do better than haggle over numbers. 6, 60, 600, the first question is whether risking anyone’s life would have been worth it – Key says yes and that’s got to be a worry for Kiwis who oppose these kinds of interventions. SP[
Billy 55

18 September 2008 at 11:30 am

Ev,

Can we have one thread where you mention neither 911 nor depleted uranium? Try starting with a thread where you mention only one and work your down from there.
John Stevens 56

18 September 2008 at 11:31 am

How many NZ soldiers have died in non combat areas since 1999? Must be somewhere around the 5-8 mark, remember the Unimog accident etc?
Clark is a liar on this and she knows it. It is more relavant to compare to Australian deaths, not USA deaths.
Lies, lies and statistics.

[the question is not whether soldiers die but whether it would have been worth sending soldiers to kill and die in Iraq. Key still says yes. SP]
lukas 57

18 September 2008 at 11:38 am

Billy- thats like asking HC to hold all her ministers to the same standard… never going to happen
Matthew Pilott 58

18 September 2008 at 11:47 am

Tim obviously forgot Gallipoli. Because there’s clearly no way losses in a war wouldn’t be in exact proportion to the number of troops deployed. Right? It goes like a pretty bell-curve, with perfectly normal distribution.

At least we’ve all moved past the point of disputing whether people would have died because John Key is ambitious for the US and their oil dependency. Sad that we have to haggle on the numbers that would probably have died for Key’s ‘abmition’.

I think Clark’s number was high – instead of basing it upon a NZ comparison of US deaths per-capita, a look at the deaths based upon a probable deployed New Zealand force would have been more appropriate. I.e. US 150,000 troops and 4,000 dead. So if we sent 500 troops, fighting where America fought, an approximation would be 13 dead.

A lot of assumptions there – equal duties, equal risk, and so on. It could easily be far lower, or far higher. Casualties would certainly be well over 60 – as RedLogix pointed out death isn’t the only outcome.

Interestingly, a comment above stated that most deaths occurred after the conflict. Numerically that is true, because the ‘mission’ was ‘accomplished’ a bit prematurely. 4.13 deaths a day during the conflict, and around 2 a day afterwards.

http://icasualties.org/oif/

Ah, found it: Andrew “Now before you say that was because it was after the initial invasion force, the inital invasion was the safest time to be there.”

What was that about facts, buddy? Get ’em right.
gobsmacked 59

18 September 2008 at 11:55 am

What a scary, depressing debate. I suppose this is what happens when people live war through Hollywood and computer games.

Old “pro-war” argument: “We will send our soldiers to fight and kill and die and get maimed, because that’s what happens in wars, so just deal with it”.

Not very nice, but honest.

Modern “pro-war” argument: “We will send our soldiers to war, but nobody will get hurt, at least not in front of the cameras, it will be a nice war, and if anybody does die we’ll have lots of cliched Anzac Day-type coverage and and pretend that it’s all noble and has a great movie soundtrack.”

And then – obscenely – spin doctors will argue about casualty figures, knowing that they are mere bloodless numbers, a world away from the reality of the war.

John Key supported the war. The war is a crime against humanity. And any fucking chicken-hawks who support it should be on the front line. After all, if nobody would have died, they would be perfectly safe, wouldn’t they?

Don’t bother responding unless you’ve got a plane ticket to Baghdad, heroes. The occupation needs you, and you’ve told us how safe it is, so off you go.
Matthew Pilott 60

18 September 2008 at 11:58 am

Clark is a liar on this and she knows it.

Given that you, in making the statement, can’t even beging to attempt to articulate it, I can’t see that being the case.

It is more relavant to compare to Australian deaths, not USA deaths.

Ahh, it’s where America goes, we should go, not Australia.

Or are you telling us that you, John Stevens, would have been responsible for the internal deployment of NZ troops in Iraq, and that you know we’d be fighting where Australia was, and not the hotspots the US and UK were?

Lies, lies, and lies. Not even a statistic. Or an attempt at an argument.
jo zinny 61

18 September 2008 at 12:00 pm

To Bryan Spondre and his readers..

nice to see you confirming that US intervention in Iraq was, as you say, “the invasion”.

Democracies as I am sure you know, can be very vulnerable to popular figures.. indeed New Zealand fell under the Rob Muldoon spell several decades back..
rave 62

18 September 2008 at 12:01 pm

Well if the probability was that “up to…how many?..1,2,3…60” would have been killed had National deployed troops to Iraq, remembering that National would have been brown-nosing to recapture their lost ally, then that would have taken care of at at least Williamson, Key and Power and many of the rightwing warmongers who want NZ bristling with arms so “we pay our way”.

VTO: Of course if the arseholes fought their own wars there would be none.
r0b 63

18 September 2008 at 12:03 pm

That isn’t true, r0b.

I didn’t say all previous was Tim, or recent previous wars, though to be clear yes I should have said some previous wars.

Fact remains, as the case of Denmark shows, the risks of a country with troops in Iraq is difficult to predict. And comparing such risks to the risks of invading aliens from outer space, as you did, is to trivialise a life and death matter.
lprent 64

18 September 2008 at 12:10 pm

Andrew:

Yes we did send engineers as well as soldiers.

What a puzzling statement.

EME’s are soldiers first, engineers second. Just as all army medics like I was are soldiers first and medics second. If attacked then they’d defend. But they would not be doing active campaigning.

So all i was trying to say was it is disgusting that Helen used our brave troops as pawns in her political campaign of fear against John Key.

Negative, or dirty? you decide.

The thing that soldiers fear above all else are idiot politicians who put them in harms way for their own stupid political positions. It doesn’t matter if it is Lange with his idiotic ideas about going into Fiji in the 1980’s, or Key’s position on Iraq. Neither appeared to have a point in terms of NZ strategic position. There were no benefits in terms of the international multilaterism from the UN that we usually support.

I’d say that Helen was making a clear distinction between a politician who looked at the cost-benefits to NZ, and an idiot who wanted to do it because “everyone else was”.

Now people that talk the way you do about “brave troops” probably should do a course on the politicians bullshit compared to the reality in world war one. Using that kind of approach is not just dirty, it is also moronic because it ignores military history. It is the language of idiot aristrocrats and their braying minions. Damn I started to talk about talkback radio again.
Tim Ellis 65

18 September 2008 at 12:18 pm

Matthew said:

“Tim obviously forgot Gallipoli. Because there’s clearly no way losses in a war wouldn’t be in exact proportion to the number of troops deployed. Right? It goes like a pretty bell-curve, with perfectly normal distribution.”

I didn’t forget Gallipoli, Matthew. I conceded that NZ lost more troops in the First World War than other Commonwealth countries. I noted that we were under British command at that stage. We were basically cannon-fodder for the British army, both at Gallipoli and in Flanders.

In error, I did concede that NZ appears to have lost more troops in WW2 than other Commonwealth countries. In fact, as a proportion of troops deployed, we had fewer casualties during WW2 than Britain did.

It is also true that many countries who have deployed troops in Iraq have had no casualties in conflict. South Korea has 600 troops there, without a single casualty. Albania has 240 troops under US command, without a single casualty. Mongolia has 100 under Polish command, without a single casualty. Tonga has 55 without a casualty. Norway had 150 troops, without a single casualty. In fact, of the 40 countries that have deployed troops to Iraq, 32 have lost fewer troops than New Zealand has in Timor.

As for Helen Clark’s claim of 60 New Zealanders returning home in body bags, consider this. Of the the 40 countries deployed to Iraq since the invasion, only two countries have had more than 60 deaths.
bill brown 66

18 September 2008 at 12:20 pm

So Tim, how many NZ soldiers dead in Iraq would be OK for you then?
Pascal's bookie 67

18 September 2008 at 12:28 pm

Tim, stop masticating.

Which party showed better judgement about Iraq?

Why did the stupid party get it so wrong, and how can we trust that their judgement has improved?

Simple questions for a simple sophist.
lprent 68

18 September 2008 at 12:29 pm

Tim: It is hardly the point. Why should have we committed combat troops in an aggressive invasion with no point.

There was no point for NZ apart from brown-nosing George W Bush. All of the origional rationales for going into Iraq were just wrong, and were known to be wrong at the time. We’d have been sending troops into a war with no military point, no political objectives, and basically for no reason. Any deaths or risk of death would have been unacceptable.

I find it hard to understand why anyone rational would support John Key in his insistence that it would have been a good idea to follow the yankee republicians into Iraq
Tim Ellis 69

18 September 2008 at 12:32 pm

None, Bill, and if you had spent any time in the army then you wouldn’t dare use soldiers as political cannon fodder the way Helen Clark has.

There is a real issue about New Zealand’s involvement in Iraq, which Helen Clark is deliberately blurring. New Zealand was involved in reconstruction. New Zealand could have committed further troops, which would have led to an increased risk to those soldiers. Would John Key have done so? Well, he said a few years ago that he might, but he didn’t have any professional military advisers at the time. My instinct is that the advice he would have received, had he been PM, from Foreign Affairs and Defence advisers would have been not to commit troops to Iraq. We were already stretched to capacity in Afghanistan and Timor. Foreign Affairs would have advised him, in response to the US request for troops, to say: “We support you in your efforts. We’re already committed in Afghanistan and Timor. We will send reconstruction troops after the invasion is over.”

We don’t know what decision John Key would have actually made. Would a Labour Prime Minister have committed troops to Korea? Or Vietnam? Or to Bosnia? It’s pointless to speculate on that.

What is likely is that John Key would not have criticised the US publicly the way Helen Clark did. She did that, no doubt, because she believed what she was saying. But there was a considerable domestic cost to criticising the US, in terms of our chances of gaining a free trade agreement with the US.

In my view, the best outcome would have been to make no more military commitment than we did, refuse to criticise the US in the way Helen Clark did, and achieve a free trade agreement. Would John Key have achieved this? Possibly. It wouldn’t have made him the darling of the Left, but the outcomes for New Zealand would have been much better than what we got.

Helen Clark had no basis for making the claim of 60 deaths in Iraq under John Key, except for scare-mongering vulnerable elderly voters. That is dirty campaigning.
gobsmacked 70

18 September 2008 at 12:32 pm

FFS. This isn’t hard.

1) You support the invasion and are prepared to inflict and accept casualties – even be one yourself.

or

2) You don’t support the invasion.

Those are the two positions on this issue. Not:

You support the invasion, but just as long as nobody on your side dies, because that would be like, all gross and icky, and if it did happen you would bring everybody home.
higherstandard 71

18 September 2008 at 12:35 pm

Rather bizarre thread… the PM was just understandably doing some politicing and it all seems to have caused a bit of a storm in a teacup.

All the theorising and second guessing is as useful as trying to imagine what would have happened if the USA hadn’t gone into Iraq – honestly who really knows ?
higherstandard 72

18 September 2008 at 12:37 pm

Lynn

Hasn’t the government just “brown-nosed” W over the nuclear issue with India ?

[just because Farrar said it doesn’t make it so. NZ, Ireland, and Austria formed a core group that would have blocked the US-India nuke deal without getting a list of measures as safeguards to insure the nuke material wouldn’t go to the military program. We got most of our conditions met and dropped our opposition to the deal – politics, especially diplomacy, is the art of the possible, and we did damn well in this instance. SP]
r0b 73

18 September 2008 at 12:39 pm

None, Bill

Good. Labour achieved this, National would probably not.

and if you had spent any time in the army then you wouldn’t dare use soldiers as political cannon fodder the way Helen Clark has.

Because it’s better to use them as real cannon fodder? Oh Please. As Lynn commented above “The thing that soldiers fear above all else are idiot politicians who put them in harms way for their own stupid political positions”.
travellerev 74

18 September 2008 at 12:42 pm

Billy,

50.000 first responders (you know the heroes who went to that pile everyday) are dying as a result of the buildings collapsing into dust and them breathing the dust in 20.000 New Yorkers are dying because of the same. The survivors and widows and families of people who died in those towers want a new and independent investigation.

1.2 million or more Iraqis have died as a result of the events and we don’t even know how many Afghanis have died. New Zealand has troops in Afghanistan who probably would much rather be home because we were going in to “catch” Osama bin Laden whose family has profiteered hugely from the wars byt the way. Around the world including NZ laws have been implemented that curb our freedoms in the name of fighting terror. So if it is all the same to you I will keep on talking about it and to get back to the thread and it’s relevance: According to the US we need to send many more soldiers to Afghanistan. Not to help build up the country but to kill more “Taliban” and “al Qaeda”.

By the way did you know that the CIA paid Mujahedeen to train as guerrilla’s and that it was the CIA who paid for the Afghani and Pakistani Madrassas (Islamic fundamentalist schools) and that from those Mujahedeen a data base was compiled (Al Qaeda means “the base”) of no more than some 500 names who provoked the Russians to attack Afghanistan in order to get the Russians embroiled in a long protracted unwinnable war. A bit like the US and the Coalition of the w(k)illing is involved in now.

If we have been lied to in order to get us to go to war than I want to know about it.

Oh one last titillating little nugget: the bin Laden family is part of the Carlyle group George W. Bush is very good friends with the bin Laden family. In fact he was in the white house while his son was in Florida on the night preceding the events of 911. it is the annual Carlyle investors meeting. Guess who he had dinner with the night before 911; With none other than the guest off honour Safiq bin Laden. Osama’s brother. The Carlyle group is one of the biggest profiteers of both the Afghan and Iraq war.

Billy do you still think that ordinary New Zealanders should be risking their lives in Afghanistan for big oil and the military industrial complex?
travellerev 75

18 September 2008 at 12:46 pm

Lucas,

yawn
Steve Pierson 76

18 September 2008 at 12:50 pm

hs. there will be decisions like the decision whether to join the invasion of Iraq to be made in the future as well.. Key’s position on Iraq indicates how we can expect him to behave in the future, just as Clark’s opposition to the Vietnam war presaged her opposition to Iraq.
lprent 77

18 September 2008 at 12:51 pm

hs: I’m still not sure exactly what went on, indeed I’m having problems understanding exactly what are the issues (lack of time).

The best stuff I’ve read has been at http://addingnoughts.blogspot.com/ and I’m planning to go back there for a closer look.

So far it looks to me like the US was going to get its way anyway, and we and the other countries agreed on the basis that there were better safeguards (but I could be wrong). I’d point out that I’m highly pragmatic – not green or act supporter (too doctrinaire) or a talkbacker (too ignorant). I don’t make opinions without getting some feel about the facts.

BTW: the hire car I’m driving seems to only have talkback radio stations. It is like diving into a world of make-believe where people make up ‘facts’ on the fly based on how good they sound. Urgghhhh…
higherstandard 78

18 September 2008 at 12:56 pm

“BTW: the hire car I’m driving seems to only have talkback radio stations. It is like diving into a world of make-believe where people make up â€˜facts’ on the fly based on how good they sound. Urgghhhh ”

Yeech .. sounds like a combination of parliamentary question time and a Privileges committee hearing !
vto 79

18 September 2008 at 1:00 pm

like clark making up her number of 60 dead. maybe she has been spending too much time listening to talkback herself.
higherstandard 80

18 September 2008 at 1:06 pm

SP

Spin it any way you like – there is nothing to stop India from utilising the Uranium to make more nuclear weapons.

According to the NY Times we along with a few other countries were leaned on quite heavily.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/07/world/asia/07india.html?_r=1&em&oref=slogin

I suspect the NZ Greens have a very different viewpoint to you and Labour and National on this one.
travellerev 81

18 September 2008 at 1:09 pm

Oh and Billy,

I forgot all those patriotic American kids that joined after 911 and died and got hurt and are now killing themselves at a rate of some 18 a day because they can’t live with themselves any more after three, four or five gruelling tours, killing Iraqis and getting killed by road side bombs.

And the hundreds of thousands of those men and women who came back with debilitating diseases caused by DEPLETED URANIUM.

All because of 911

In fact one of the brave young men who worked on “Loose chance” had done tours in Afghanistan and two in Iraq. I reckon he felt pretty pissed off when he started looking properly at all the video material.

You should try it yourself one time.
Matthew Pilott 82

18 September 2008 at 1:41 pm

Tim, those nice warm fuzzy guesses of yours are completely worthless, I’m afraid. Here’s an equally (more in my books) likely scenario:

My instinct is that the advice he would have received, had he been PM, from Foreign Affairs and Defence advisers would have been not to commit troops to Iraq. We were already stretched to capacity in Afghanistan and Timor. Foreign Affairs would have advised him, in response to the US request for troops, to say: “We support you in your efforts. We’re already committed in Afghanistan and Timor. We will send reconstruction troops after the invasion is over.’

Key would have replied that where America goes, we go, and that we aren’t about to be MIA in Iraq. He would have withdrawn our peacekeeping forces from East Timor, and our PRT from Afghanistan, and sent them, plus everyone else he could muster, to Iraq.

“As for Helen Clark’s claim of 60 New Zealanders returning home in body bags, consider this. Of the the 40 countries deployed to Iraq since the invasion, only two countries have had more than 60 deaths.”

Yes, Tim, and it’s because we were not fighting there that we didn’t have the chance to be one of them. I already said this:

“I think Clark’s number was high – instead of basing it upon a NZ comparison of US deaths per-capita, a look at the deaths based upon a probable deployed New Zealand force would have been more appropriate. I.e. US 150,000 troops and 4,000 dead. So if we sent 500 troops, fighting where America fought, an approximation would be 13 dead.”

Nice of you to reiterate Clark’s claim, after I had also disputed it. Does 13 dead sound like enough to support Key being ambitious to support US depencence on oil? I’ve already stated it’s sad we’re haggling over the numbers.

“None, Bill, and if you had spent any time in the army then you wouldn’t dare use soldiers as political cannon fodder the way Helen Clark has.”

How so? Looks to me like she’s refrained from doing so, unlike Key, whou would have done so in order to suck up to the US. You’ve got it right backwards.
higherstandard 83

18 September 2008 at 1:57 pm

MP

In the what if games that are being played why do you think Key would have ignored the advice from foreign affairs and defense ?
lprent 84

18 September 2008 at 2:01 pm

vto: Granny herald in one of the political columns checked her numbers. They said on the basis that she was using (relative to the US troops casualties) that she was wrong. It should have been 55 rather than 60.

Still far too high for a war that has no point.

captcha: SAILS Siberia
JK could do with a little tour… He likes his holidays
Pascal's bookie 85

18 September 2008 at 2:02 pm

HS, do you remember that article a while back with Brash having a wee cry to a journo? He said one of his biggest regrets was not standing up enough for his pacifist beliefs and opposing the Iraq war?

Why didn’t he? There’s your answer.
Matthew Pilott 86

18 September 2008 at 2:02 pm

It wasn’t ignoring it – according to Tim’s hypothetical advice he would realise that we can’t be in all three theatres (Iraq, East Timor and Afghanistan) and Iraq is the more important one. Can’t be MIA, remember. Where America goes, we’d go.

What do you think caused the regression in Afghanistan?
lprent 87

18 September 2008 at 2:08 pm

hs: I miss the national programme. It often seems inane when you’re listening to some obscure author waffling about their latest book. But when you hear the alternatives.

Oh well I stop driving for 2 weeks after friday, and my car will be back at the end.
vto 88

18 September 2008 at 2:15 pm

Iprent, I agree that the Iraq war is wrong on many many fronts, but Clark has just acted like exactly the typical politician – you know, the type that the people know is just making bullshit up to grab a headline. Does nix for the rep of her or any politician.

Anyways, the Press did a comparison based on US troops employed and said on the basis og 60 dead we would have to have sent 15,000 troops! ha ha, we dont even have anything like that number in total.

Why do politicians keep taking the public for fools? Is it because the public take the politicians for fools?

[that’s a totally dishonest comparison that Espiner makes.. The US has cycled a million people through Iraq (actually far fewer, but most of them more than once), it has never had a million there at any one time, most of the time it has had about 100,000. Likewise any NZ deployment would have cycled thousands of troops through but only a smaller number there at any one time. And once again, implicit in what you’re saying vto is that you believe casualties would have been lower and that would have been ok,.. how many dead would have been ok by you? SP]
higherstandard 89

18 September 2008 at 2:15 pm

MP

That’s one alternative – the other alternative is that after receiving that advice from foreign affairs and defence he would have taken it.
Matthew Pilott 90

18 September 2008 at 2:21 pm

Yes HS, that is a possilibility. I was more pointing out that the nice warm fuzzy picture Tim was trying to paint of Key could very well be a figment of his imagination, and that I could paint a nasty picture that is equally plausible. Which makes his comment that there was no basis for Helen’s comment wrong – you can’t say someone else is lying when you’ve made the number of warm fuzzy suppositions Tim had.

And what about the next time the US launches an immoral war for oil supply?

I hope we’re MIA again, but can’t see in under National.
Nomad 91

18 September 2008 at 2:47 pm

Anyways, the Press did a comparison based on US troops employed and said on the basis og 60 dead we would have to have sent 15,000 troops!

How did they get to that?

Total Foreign Troop levels in Iraq = about 180,000

Total casualties = about 5,000

Gives a casualty rate = about 3%

3% of 15,000 is 450.

Someone cannot do some basic arithmetic here.
vto 92

18 September 2008 at 3:00 pm

oh nomad, don’t ask me. i just mindlessly believe and repeat everything i read and hear.
Matthew Pilott 93

18 September 2008 at 3:01 pm

Nomad – Clark’s estimates were based upon a per capita sum. The main flaw being that we don’t have the same number, per capita, in the armed forces as the US. The sums from The Press were based upon the US casualty rate I believe – 4,000 from about 150,000.

Those sums you’ve put forward are interesting though. It would mean NZ would have to deploy 2000 troops to make Clark’s observation accurate. Still pretty high, but not as wildly inaccurate as some would believe.
Tim Ellis 94

18 September 2008 at 3:32 pm

Nomad, those numbers are the total deployed at any one time. Far more than 180,000 people have been deployed to Iraq over that time.

Matthew, let’s break it down. The reality is that when the PM has these requests, they then look at their military options. Let’s say that John Key is the Prime Minister, it is 2003, and George Bush rings him up asking if he can commit troops to Iraq.

He then goes to his Defence Chiefs, and says: “George W wants us to make a contribution. Give me some options.”

His Defence advisors put forward several options:

1. Do nothing. Refuse to commit assistance of any kind, either as part of the coalition of the willing, or the later multinational force.

2. Do nothing now. Remain open to the possibility of committing engineers at a later point as part of a multinational force. Point out our current commitments under UN mandate in Afghanistan and Timor.

3. Commit to deploying committing engineers at a later point as part of a multinational force. Point out our current commitments under UN mandate in Afghanistan and Timor. (The Clark option).

4. Commit to removing the special forces unit from Afghanistan, and redeploying it in Iraq, as well as engineers for reconstruction later. Moving special forces from one theatre to another, doesn’t create greater risk for those soldiers. It just moves the geography. A clear commitment of NZ support to the US on the Iraqi front, but removes its commitment in Afghanistan, to no net benefit to the US. I very much doubt Key would have taken this option. Had he done so, there was a possible risk of an extra five soldiers killed in action, at the absolute maximum. Given they were deployed in a similar threat situation in Afghanistan throughout this time, I think to say even five body bags is stretching credibility.

5. Redeploy an infantry batallion from Timor to Iraq. 400 soldiers. An enormous gesture of support to the US. Yet that leaves Timor abandoned. You say John Key could have done that. I agree, it was possible. Yet Timor has been the biggest commitment New Zealand defence forces have made to any conflict since Vietnam. It is in our sphere of influence. Not even Australia pared back its Timor commitment to put forces into Iraq. Had John Key chosen this option, then maybe ten of them might have been at risk, at the absolute maximum, although even this would have been a far greater fatality rate than any of the other forces deployed by other nations in Iraq.

6. Commit far more than an infantry batallion to Iraq. Make it our single defence policy goal. Send the entire army and the air force. Put our frigates in the Persian Gulf to support them. If Key had done that, then we might see thirty fatalities.

Next, separate from the deployment options, had Key been Prime Minister, he would have had several foreign policy options:

a: Condemn US military action in Iraq. Insult George Bush, and pledge support to Saddam Hussein.

b: Criticise US military action. Refuse to pledge support to Hussein. Express concern on post-invasion reconstruction (The Clark option).

c: Remain neutral on US military action. Express concern about post-invasion reconstruction.

d: Publicly support the US invasion (the Blair/Howard option).

That latter set of foreign policy options are about gestures and signals. There is little doubt that Australia’s free trade agreement with the US was significantly advanced by taking option (d). There’s also little doubt that New Zealand’s free trade prospects with the US were hindered because Helen Clark took option (b).

If John Key had been Prime Minister, it is clear he would have taken foreign policy options (c) or (d). If he had taken the former, then New Zealand would have been in a neutral position on free trade negotiations. If he had taken option (d), then we would have been in a positive position.

Neither of those options involved a threat to New Zealand soldiers in Iraq. They could have been made totally independently of troop commitments.

Helen Clark pulled her numbers out of nowhere. She chose to do it through scare-mongering. Her much-lauded judgement, in my view, was not flawless over the Iraq War. It cost us a free trade agreement. It meant no loss of soldiers’ lives, but I think there was a perfectly feasible approach to limit risks to New Zealand servicemen, as well as achieving foreign policy and trade outcomes.
Matthew Pilott 95

18 September 2008 at 4:43 pm

So you have to ask yourself, Tim, what would Key have done, what would his preferred option be? I’d say somewhere between 5 and 6. Missing in Action is a very strong statement. It’s virtually saying we’re abandoning our allies, and has implications of desertion.

b: Criticise US military action. Refuse to pledge support to Hussein. Express concern on post-invasion reconstruction (The Clark option).

What’s this about Clark refusing to pledge support to Hussein? I’m not aware that she, or New Zealand was asked to do so.

Your further analysis of this completely ignores the negative consequences of (c) or (d). We are not considered part of the ‘coalition of the willing’. We all know what that means. Australia recently arrested an ‘Islamic terror cell’. Over-hyped perhaps, I don’t know the details, but there were also the Kuta Beach bombings, even though they were prior to Iraq. I bet a lot of people sleep a little bit easier knowing that we’re not considered a target, here or abroad.

You’re over-stating the effect of Clark’s single comment that the war wouldn’t have happened if Gore won the election. Is there something else to which you refer when you mention that Clark criticised US action in Iraq? It was not a major gaffe (refreshingly honest to some, here and abroad). Our relations with the US have significantly improved over the last 9 years; it is fatuous to claim one comment cost us an FTA with the US.

An FTA isn’t based upon who said what and to whom, it’s pretty far-fetched to think it would have had any real effect.

New Zealand’s positive contribution to stability in the Pacific, willingness to work with the US where our goals are mutual (i.e. reconstruction in Iraq), improved defence ties and usefully independent foreign policy under Labour will have had a far greater bearing that a single comment from Clark, or a refusal to send in front-line combat troops.

“Helen Clark pulled her numbers out of nowhere. She chose to do it through scare-mongering. ”

Totally false. She used a per-capita calculation. You must know that, must have read that. As I have said above, it was not the best way to work out the cost of defending the US’ access to foreign oil. Nor is it impossible, with a large contribution.

That you think this is primarily about foreign policy and trade outcomes says much. I disagree even on that though. Our foreign policy has not been affected negatively, and our various contributions have been welcomed over the last 5 years. It will take a lot more to get an FTA with the US, that much is clear. Let’s not forget Australia is still part of ANZUS…
Draco T Bastard 96

18 September 2008 at 4:51 pm

Her much-lauded judgement, in my view, was not flawless over the Iraq War. It cost us a free trade agreement.

I prefer it having cost us a FTA with the US than having cost our morality for a FTA with the US. Some things shouldn’t be up for sale to the highest bidder.
randal 97

18 September 2008 at 4:58 pm

somehow johhny boy doesnt look like the type to volunteer himself!
Billy 98

18 September 2008 at 5:39 pm

Billy do you still think that ordinary New Zealanders should be risking their lives in Afghanistan for big oil and the military industrial complex?

I just asked you to stop banging on quite so much about your pet kooky theories. They do not have universal application to any topic we may want to discuss.

I did not say anything about New Zealanders risking their lives. You have made an assumption about me based on your prejudices. Now that’s not very lefty of you, is it?
Tim Ellis 99

18 September 2008 at 5:54 pm

Matthew said:

What’s this about Clark refusing to pledge support to Hussein? I’m not aware that she, or New Zealand was asked to do so.

No, perhaps I wasn’t as clear as I could have been. I used that point to differentiate between options (1) and (2). My point is that there was a scale of options for the Prime Minister to take. Helen Clark did not take the most extreme option. There are a range of measures Helen Clark could have taken, which are probably still in option (1), such as expelling the US ambassador, recalling the New Zealand ambassador, putting in place trade embargoes, ceasing diplomatic relations, declaring war on the US.

I don’t like to make assumptions about what other people think, Matthew, but I think we’ve agreed that there were a range of military options available to the Prime Minister in 2003. We can assume that the advice John Key would have received from officials would have been the same that Helen Clark did receive.

Even if there was a strong political will for New Zealand involvement in Iraq, the viable military options were few: we were already deployed heavily in Timor, our largest involvement in 35 years, and in Afghanistan. We simply couldn’t send a batallion to Iraq. Would John Key have changed military priorities so drastically to do so? I don’t think so.

Could we have sent special forces to Iraq, by redeploying them from Afghanistan? Possibly, but that wouldn’t have been a net benefit to the US. Would John Key have done that? Possibly, as a gesture, but it would not have increased the risk of New Zealand forces, because it simply would have moved their activities from one place to another. I believe John Key’s real military options remained somewhere between points (3) and (4).

Next, when John Key made those statements, he was not the leader of the National Party. He didn’t have the advisers that Helen Clark had. From memory he was the associate Finance spokesman. You can get away with a lot more hyperbole as a backbench opposition MP about what the country should be doing, than you can as Prime Minister when you’re actually in a position to do it. In the mid-90s Phil Goff was calling on New Zealand to cease diplomatic relations with both Indonesia and France. He was the Foreign Affairs spokesperson at the time. The diplomatic consequences of saying those things as an opposition MP are far less serious than if you’re the PM.

In retrospect, I think John Key was wrong to say that we should have committed substantially more troops to Iraq than we did. We just didn’t have the military capacity to do it without drastically changing our military priorities. Had John Key been the Prime Minister at the time, with the advisers around him, and the ability to actually carry things out, I very much doubt he would have made the same claim.

Key’s criticism of Helen Clark’s decision to criticise the US for the invasion was a valid point. You say you don’t think it cost us a trade deal with the US. Maybe it didn’t. It certainly didn’t help improve relations with Washington. In my view, it had a negative impact on those prospects.

I also disagree that Helen Clark did not criticise the US-led invasion. From memory, it was not just a one-off statement about Al Gore’s decision, had he been President. It was quite consistent. For example, in 2003, on the eve of the invasion, Clark said to Parliament

It is a matter of profound regret to us that some of our closest friends have chosen to stand outside the Security Council at this point.

A new and dangerous precedent is being set. It may be possible to justify one’s friends taking such action, but where then is our moral authority when other nations use the precedent which is being set?
randal 100

18 September 2008 at 5:59 pm

is keys still getting hysterical about it. I suppose the thought of actually standing up for your beliefs has unhinged the man?
the sprout 101

18 September 2008 at 6:07 pm

well randal, it would be a lot for a man of his character to deal with.
vto 102

18 September 2008 at 6:26 pm

Mr Pierson, way back up there you asked me how many dead would be a suitable number. I never said or even intimated any such number would be acceptable. All of my points in this thread have been about Clark’s deceiving nature in this matter over numbers. Not about the actual war.

She was right not to go in with the US. She is not right to deceive in her comment yesterday to Grey Power.

[lprent: Chris Trotter popped up the calc http://www.policy.net.nz/blog/?p=808

(The calculation is very simple BTW: US population of 305,149,000 divided by 4,159 US soldiers KIA = 1 fatality for every 73,371 Americans; NZ population of 4,276,100 divided by 73,371= 58 NZ soldiers KIA.)

So she didn’t. You can argue with the factors in the calculation but there was a basis for the value. I wouldn’t called that deceitful. ]
travellerev 103

18 September 2008 at 6:29 pm

Billy,

you are speaking in the royal “we”.
Every day my blog grows in unique visitors. Apparently there are a lot of people who do want to learn more about what happened on that day.

The fact that you call scientific evidence kooky theories without informing yourself says more about you than about me.

I’m sure you don’t go to the links that discredit John Key as a liar and an opportunist either.

This thread is about war and about whether we should be involved or not. Based on my reality I would have to say both wars are illegal, based on lies and to stay in them is a war crime. In fact it is the ultimate war crime; An unprovoked war of aggression.

You may not like what I’m writing but it is pertinent to the topic. My reality is what it is. I personally think you are a dimwit with a very poor grasp of reality but I don’t tell you to shut up with your trolling comments and your typical pakeha middle class bloke remarks. Irritating, ignorant and stupid though they may seem to me.
Billy 104

18 September 2008 at 6:36 pm

My reality is what it is.

Apparently so.
gobsmacked 105

18 September 2008 at 6:41 pm

This was the view of the National Party, as expressed in the Parliamentary debate on Iraq, on the eve of war (March 18, 2003). No National MP dissented, in Parliament or outside.

Defence spokesman Wayne Mapp:

“Today I say this: to support the action led by the United States and Britain is the right course for New Zealand. We do so in National because, in the first instance, that ensures that international law is upheld, even when the United Nations fails to act. But in the second instance, our own interests should tell us to support our traditional friends and allies. Those relationships matter most on the tough issues, and this is assuredly one of the toughest of them all. Our position as a nation will be remembered long after Iraq has a new Government, and we will be judged accordingly.

I conclude by saying that there are times in politics and in the life of a nation when clear decisions have to be made. This is one of those times. Our Government did have the opportunity â€” which it did not take â€” to make the right decision, in which enforcing international law would have coincided with defending our national interests. That is the path of failure.” (Hansard)

(emphasis added)

National supported the invasion. John Key supported the invasion. The real falsehood is not Clark’s hypothetical numbers, but National’s blatant rewriting of history.
Tim Ellis 106

18 September 2008 at 6:46 pm

Gobsmacked, you have highlighted exactly what I’ve said. National did support the US. I haven’t read the Hansard, but there’s nothing in the quote you’ve given us that says National formally committed large numbers of troops to Iraq. They were simply responding to Helen Clark’s opposition to the invasion.

This debate is about how accurate Helen Clark’s claim yesterday, of 60 soldiers returning to New Zealand in body bags. There is nothing I have seen that remotely justifies such an hysterical claim.
travellerev 107

18 September 2008 at 7:09 pm

Billy,

Yep, your typical pakeha middle class male ignoramus.
vto 108

18 September 2008 at 7:30 pm

travellerev, your last comment exposes you as a complete and utter bigot.

i am pakeha (mostly), middle class, male, and proud. so get fucked.
Pascal's bookie 109

18 September 2008 at 8:46 pm

No Tim, The debate remains around judgment, and none of your sophistry changes that.

It’s kind of hilarious though, that you think that our not joining in, and our mild criticisms, were a lost opportunity on the trade front. The war wasn’t about us Tim, and it wasn’t a negotiating tactic on the US’ part. There were other issues involved.

The fact that the whole WMD thing and the international law business, and the Bush doctrine of preventative war, the neocon theories about transforming the ME through democratic reform via enhanced interrogation and high explosive, and a myriad of other considerations pay absolutely no role in your analysis, not a skerrick, nary a sentence, tells me all I need to know about your judgment on the matter.

Jesus wept mate. Helen got it wrong because we didn’t get a trade deal, which you admit anyway was unlikely. Is that it?

You say that the National party wouldn’t have said what they said if they knew better. It wasn’t a bloody secret that we had troops in those other places Tim. It’s not hard to work out what we would have needed to do to fill the promises the Nat’s were making. But they made them anyway. So unless you are saying that they were just politicising the situation for domestic reasons, and that they didn’t really mean it, then that dog won’t hunt.

You quote Clark thus:

It is a matter of profound regret to us that some of our closest friends have chosen to stand outside the Security Council at this point.

A new and dangerous precedent is being set. It may be possible to justify one’s friends taking such action, but where then is our moral authority when other nations use the precedent which is being set?

It’s a good quote. Where do you stand on it’s content Tim? Not the sophistry. Not the domestic politics of it. Not the bloody meagre effect on our non existent free trade negotiations with the US. The content of what Clark said. Agree or disagree?
Steve Withers 110

18 September 2008 at 9:51 pm

This is my primary reason for being utterly unable to vote for the National party.

1. They swallowed Bush’s lies whole.

2. They kept them down.

3. They wanted to whore the lives of Kiwis in Iraq for a possible FTA with the USA….as Wayne Mapp and Simon Power made VERY clear when the PM said we weren’t going to join Bush’s crony capitalist Mid-east gang-bang.

Those two are still on National’s front bench.

They are still the same party. They haven’t changed. Your kids could die so they can better trade arrangements.

Against all the petty smears National throws at Labour, nothing comes close to being as monstrous as the National Party’s actions with respect to Iraq.

It’s laughable watching National try to play the victim in the “dirty campaign” pantomime. They have been smearing Clark about her sexuality, her marriage and every other thing since 2002 non-stop.
dave 111

19 September 2008 at 4:16 am

[lprent: dave (previously known as max) we dislike trolling behavior, attempts to incite flamewars and attacks on the site – you have just done all three. Apart from that people take their chances with other commentators.

This is an attempt to run a re-litigation style flame. It is a classic flamewar starter technique and it wastes my bandwidth. Oh we are not ‘labour’, we support the general labour movement (read the About). That is just a smear that Whale and other fools like to put around because they are incapable of participating in discussion here. It is a excuse and a figleaf for their lack of debating abilities.

You are now banned for a week. Argue and I’ll happily increase it and I like increasing it rapidly.

For the benefit of anyone who’d like to know, the moron repeated his entire previous comment stream. Obviously couldn’t find anything new in that tiny mind to write about. ]
T-rex 112

19 September 2008 at 6:23 am

Dear. Sweet. Christ.

1) Clarks numbers: It is beyond contestation that the METHODOLOGY was sh*t. No one with a vague grasp of… well… anything really, can debate that. Calling her desperately misleading and disingenious is just basic mudslinging though – do you really think she came up with them herself? Late at night in the office calculating away? Don’t be ridiculous.

You can take it as a given that someone, quite rightly, decided it would be good to draw attention to the fact that Key supported the iraq invasion (as distinct from the subsequent UN sanctioned intervention) on account of how it provides damning evidence of his total failure to grasp the important elements of the situation. In highlighting the numerous follies of Keys would-have-been decision, someone (may well even have been Clark) said “hey, how many soliders might we have lost if we HAD gone for it?”. So someone who should never have been left anywhere near a calculator went away and performed some fundamentally flawed maths, and came up with 60 or whatever.

Who the F*CK cares? Some people probably would have died, and whether it is 60 or 6 or ZERO makes no damn difference to the folly of the decision. It just helps give an immediately personal sense of the possible tragedy, which DOES help when trying to gauge the magnitude of something that happened on the other side of the earth.

All of the debate over how best to calculate the number of likely deaths is essentially just a distraction from the fact that…

2) KEY SUPPORTED THE WAR, AND BY IMPLICATION THE INTENT OF THE WAR, AND WANTED NZ TROOPS IN THE THICK OF IT.

Unless someone wants to argue that he didn’t support the intent of the war, but was supporting the war anyway because he has no scruples or standards and didn’t really care whether it was right or wrong because he just wanted in on the old boys club.

If being involved in the war was right, it would have been right even if we’d lost 100 soldiers (as was illustrated in WW2). If it was wrong, it would be wrong even if we’d lost no soldiers.

It is safe to say it’s wrong considering it was:
1) Not sanctioned by the UN
2) Based on flaky evidence that later proved to be complete fabrication
3) Undertaken against the advice of even top ranking US generals.
4) Lead to hundreds of thousands of deaths, expected to total in the millions by the time externalities are completed

—

The wannabe sidekick who would be our Prime Minister thought it was a good idea anyway.
Not because of moral imperatives, global security, likelyhood of a net benefit for the countries involved, or ANY of the REAL reasons a country should go to war.
Just because he wanted to be best-friends-forever with the USA and, to a lesser extent, the UK. He would effectively have sacrificed our autonomy on the basis of THAT.
I can just imagine him in the principals office after school.

Principal: Ok John, beating up Danny Parker doesn’t seem like the kind of thing a smiling young man such as yourself would be into – what’s going on? What’d he do to make you jump in with the other guys like that?

JK: His name was Danny? Interesting. Well anyway, he bought some lollies at the canteen and wouldn’t give any to Barry Whitmore, because Barry Whitmore beat him up LAST week, so Barry Whitmore and Andrew Lowell decided to beat him up to teach him a lesson, and Andrew Lowell’s dad has a REALLY nice boat and so I thought maybe if I helped then Andrew would invite me on it at Christmas. So, you see, I didn’t want to but really I had to!

—

That’s all that matters.
Key would have got in a fight for no real reason other than he wanted to be friends with the instigator. That makes him a morally bankrupt coward.

I IMPLORE you to stop debating Clarks numbers. Lets accept the methodology that delivered them sucked and move on.
Considering the flawed reasoning in some of the above “corrections” I don’t think it’s a good thing to dwell on. It’s what happens when you give a calculator and some basic data to someone who understands neither the problem nor statistical analysis and demand that they produce an answer. I see it at least twice a week in mainstream news and have just got over it.
T-rex 113

19 September 2008 at 6:28 am

Matt: “An FTA isn’t based upon who said what and to whom,”

Ironically, however, that’s basically how National hope to get one. “Please pretty please give us an FTA, it won’t cost you very much and we’ll be your best friends and it’ll make everyone else think you’re easy going and cool”.

Tim: You’re presenting the fact that it might have cost us an FTA as an argument against. I’d say;
1) So what? If that’s the case, it’s a price I’ll gladly pay – anything else is bloody money (or blood deferred-expense if you prefer).
2) You really think so? We weren’t going to get an FTA before the end of 2008 anyway, and it’s very possible Obama will be the next president. Black guy, talks well… opposed the Iraq War.

Frankly, it makes me sad that you don’t feel pride when you read Clarks comments to parliament on the eve of the invasion. I think she was spot on.
T-rex 114

19 September 2008 at 6:37 am

Oh, and finally (again – Tim)
“My instinct is that the advice he would have received, had he been PM, from Foreign Affairs and Defence advisers would have been not to commit troops to Iraq. We were already stretched to capacity in Afghanistan and Timor.”

That is, again, totally irrelevant. Desire to go to war and ability to go to war may lead to totally different outcomes, but the only one that’s relevant in the context of assessing fitness to govern is desire.

Surely it doesn’t bring you any comfort that we might not have gone anyway because we were committed elsewhere? I mean is that what you’re banking on – that we’ll be so heavily committed elsewhere that the ambitions (heheh) resulting from Keys incompetence and bad judgement will go unrealised? Maybe Labour should commit to UN sanctioned missions throughout Africa over the next 3 years in advance just in case…

And FINALLY – Vto. With you 100%.
travellerev 115

19 September 2008 at 7:47 am

vto and T-rex,

I count you among the same typical pakeha middle class blokes as Billy so like wise with the “get fucked” (you wish probably) and as far as bigoted is concerned I think you guys and Billy of course invented it. Close minded, ignorant and firmly embedded in the white male supremacy paradigm. LOL.

Oh, and as far as the FTA is concerned, why would you want a FTA with a bankrupt country?

Perhaps Helen Clark knew something when she decided to go with China.

And hey T-rex,

did you know that thermal expansion of one beam in a building reinforced twice to withstand a nuclear blast can bring it down into its own footprint in 6.5 seconds according to NIST?

Yep, a little office fire, a little thermal expansion of one big fat steel beam and gabamba gone, 47 floors of steel reinforced concrete turns into powder in just 6.5 seconds.

Completely new phenomenon. NIST just found it; thermal expansion. Awesome eh?

This is of course the same NIST involved in the development of a military demolition explosive called Nano-thermite prior to 2001.

But no, no, no don’t tell me there might be a slight conflict of interest there.

NIST is a sacred, all good institute which will always deliver an impartial scientific judgement even though they are a government institute and that government by your own standards is a corrupt, lying, warmongering bunch of thugs, hell bent on getting control over the oil fields in the middle east.

NIST would never give in to their thuggish murdering scum bosses.

Mate, you believe that you’ll believe anything and I have a couple of bridges you might want to buy.
travellerev 116

19 September 2008 at 7:51 am

LOL
higherstandard 117

19 September 2008 at 8:27 am

Eve if there’s someone who’ll believe anything it’s your fine self tulip.

Too many of those cakes in Amsterdam methinks.
travellerev 118

19 September 2008 at 8:48 am

HS,

Yep. Another pakeha middle class closed minded bloke firmly embedded in the white supremacy paradigm. Sleep on mate. Oh no, make that dream on and let’s hope it doesn’t turn into a nightmare, what with the Western worlds Finance collapsing around your tender sunburn prone ears, eh?

I wear the name Tulip with immense pride coming from thicko’s like you and just about the only people who smoke dope or eat funny cakes are tourists didn’t you know?
higherstandard 119

19 September 2008 at 9:07 am

Yes we’re all white middle class supremacists quite right.

Have a nice day dear.
travellerev 120

19 September 2008 at 9:23 am

HS,

Let me narrow that down to Anglo-Saxon supremacist.
Like in the Anglo-Saxon western world were the white male descendants of the mongrel nation England think that a world ruled by them is the only world worth living in and everybody else is there to serve the big Anglo-Saxon empire and if they don’t you just bomb the shit out of them and call it “democratising” and “liberating”. Moron.
randal 121

19 September 2008 at 9:23 am

tell me hs if you would be the first to go?
Matthew Pilott 122

19 September 2008 at 9:25 am

Trav, at risk of being another bigoted white middle class idiot with my head in the sand, I’m also getting mighty sick of your threadjacking and abuse.

What you are doing is basically rude – insisting that the debate be on your terms. Guess what – this debate isn’t about thermite, 9/11, the collapse of the US’ financial system or DU. Please have the decency to leave us to it; if it’s not what you want to talk about, talk elsewhere.

For the record I find some of what you say interesting, and the first few times I was willing to read it, we even had a chat about DU at one stage. But the 40th time…
Vanilla Eis 123

19 September 2008 at 9:26 am

Eve: Thermite is hardly new to the world of science (For military purposes, perhaps you’re thinking of Thermate?) Neither is thermal expansion. In fact… no, I can’t be bothered.

Did you even read T-Rex’s last couple of posts before telling him so eloquently to fuck off? He made an excellent and, importantly, on-topic point about why we shouldn’t go to war, but you’re so mired in the fact that he disagrees with you about 9/11 that you don’t even take the time to address his post.

You’re showing Rex considerably less respect than he gave you when he took the time to debate (at great length) the 9/11 collapses.

Stop trying to drag threads off topic, it’s frustating to watch and doesn’t get you anywhere either.

p.s: As a lower-class pakeha, I’m also offended when you start labelling us broadly. vto is right – just because it’s aimed at white people doesn’t mean it isn’t bigotry.
higherstandard 124

19 September 2008 at 9:27 am

Randal

In Eve’s delightful little world ……. Yes Randal I would be happy to be the first to go.

The poor dear is nuttier than squirrel poo !

[lprent: I’ve never seen a squirrel, let alone their crap – relevance?]
Vanilla Eis 125

19 September 2008 at 9:34 am

And MP beat me to it…
higherstandard 126

19 September 2008 at 9:41 am

Lynn

Nuttier …… than squirrel poo.

Feck I give up and Tane accused righties of not having a sense of humour !
coge 127

19 September 2008 at 9:57 am

Hey Trav, (to quote Owen Glenn), what time is your flight leaving?
travellerev 128

19 September 2008 at 10:51 am

Matthew Pilot,

It takes a long time for me to call someone a bigot or an idiot. It usually happens when people like Billy or HS troll without actually adding to the debate. I am white myself and I don’t judge every pakeha. In fact most of my friends are pakeha while as a maori friend of mine explained to me in fine detail pakeha’s are part of the NZ human landscape I am just a toa iwi. (foreigner) LOL.

So please, don’t feel offended if I single out a small group of bigoted commentators here whom I feel are patronising and act as if they have the right to decide who engages here and how.

This thread is about war; should we be involved and with how many and whether John Key would have us taken to Iraq.
While I have no doubt about the fact that John Key would have done exactly that, what bothers me is that for some reason most of you seem to think that the Iraq war is bad and the Afghanistan war is good.

I just happen to have a different outlook on both wars.

I think they are both bad, illegal and genocidal.

I do so because after three long years of 8 hours a day study I have come to the conclusion that it would have been impossible for three buildings to have come down in freefall speed into their own footprint just because they were hit by two planes in the two towers designed to take the impact of just such a hit.

Which means that perhaps we have been conned into an illegal war of aggression.

I don’t want to force a 911 discussion as such but I am entitled to that opinion and if someone challenges me I think that within reason I’m entitled to meet that challenge because if I’m correct than Afghanistan is also an illegal war of aggression and New Zealand should not be involved in that one either. In fact it would make Helen Clark and Phil Goff eligible for their day in court in the Haque.

Added to that I have questions about the use of DU in both countries.
For example if we are in Afghanistan to catch Osama bin Laden (the big baddy in the 911 myth after all) or to help the country rebuild or to free the poor oppressed women then why is New Zealand (fervently anti nuclear if I remember correctly) involved in this war while our coalition partner the US is bombing the country back to the stone age with more than 2000 tons of DU.

What is so liberating or good about that and why are you guys not asking those same questions?
Why is nobody asking what the heck we are still in Afghanistan for. Osama only shows up when the US government needs to scare the shit out of its citizens. Nobody is looking for him and in fact he is not even on the FBI most wanted list because there is not enough evidence.
The plight of women is even worse than under the Taliban and in fact the Taliban is resurging and stronger than ever.

I am all for putting the Iraq war on the election agenda but while we’re at it let’s have a second look at the Afghan war as well, eh.

Matthew, I think I am entitled to engage in the discussion from this point of view. To tell me not to engage in a discussion based on the fact that my world view is different to yours because I introduce elements in the discussion you don’t like to look at is, excuse me, insisting the debate is on your terms.

Now most of the people debating or commenting here are from Anglo- Saxon descent. You probably all have a strong sense of bonding with the US, Australia and the UK. You share your ancestry with these countries after all but I don’t.

My history books were different from yours. Where I grew up I was taught that while archduke Franz Ferdinand was indeed shot in Sarajevo this was not the real reason for the beginning of the second world war. One of the real reasons was the fact that Germany was building an oil pipeline to the middle east and that had to be stopped.
We were also taught that Germany instigated “False flag” incidents to get into war with Poland and to get the German people ready for war.
So the Dutch having lived through the second WW are very aware of the deviousness of governments. You see the difference?

We learned to take a step back from our rulers and became a lot more distrustful of them.

Now let’s take another step back; The Bush family financed Hitler and made money from the slave labour in Auschwitz
In fact Prescott Bush Georges grandfather actively sought to perpetrate a fascist coup on the USA in 1933.

I’m sure that was not in your history books either.

So to get back to the thread; Helen Clark upset a great many people by suggesting that John Key would have taken NZ to Iraq because the NZ population thinks that Iraq is a bad war.

Knowing what I know and assuming people want to learn all there is to learn to make a sound judgement I inserted my point of view based on that knowledge into the debate.

The debate about Iraq is good but Helen can not debate Iraq only because it gives her political advantage over John Key without some people (like me) saying, “Hang on Helen while we are discussing Iraq what about the other one “the forgotten one” the one we are officially involved in, the one were our coalition partners are shooting the crap out civilians with more than 2000 tonnes of DU contaminating that country for the next 4.5 billion years while we the NZ punters are told that we are good little partners of our big brother who just happen to be ruled by a family of Nazi sympathisers.”

You see were I’m coming from?
travellerev 129

19 September 2008 at 11:24 am

Vanilla Eis,

Did you check the link about NIST and their connection to Nanothermite?

Yes, thermate is old news but with the development of Nano technology NIST scientists have come up with incendiaries that are so volatile, hot and explosive that even mixed in a gel and sprayed on steel it can cause the steel to melt instantly when ignited.
And that was developed prior to 911 by them and they did not even entertain the notion that an explosion might be the cause of the collapse. Why? because nobody witnessed explosions loud enough. How is that for a scientific approach? The fact of the matter is there was ample evidence of explosions just before the collapse nd even before the first tower collapsed. Check out my blog if your interested.

Yes, thermal expansion is as old as the world. In fact I use it to open jam jars etc. by holding the jar under the hot tap. What is new about it though is that a relatively small office fire was able to heat up one massive beam in a structure reinforced to withstand a nuclear blast and to cause it’s collapse in 6.5 seconds into a pyroclastic flow of dust into it’s own footprint.

And yes, I read T-rex’s complete post and I agree with him on this topic. But I did not tell him to get fucked. I just returned the pleasure because he agreed with vto about me getting fucked.

T-rex claims he’s a Physicist which means he should understand the laws of Newton and should be able to distinguish when they are violated. Buildings don’t collapse in freefall speed into their own footprint due to thermal expansion after a relatively cold office fire. The fires burned in different places all day warming some places up and cooling in other places never heating up the steel more than a couple of hundred degrees not enough to cause the collapse but making it impossible to place explosives to be placed that Larry Silverstein claimed they “pulled” the with.

So, if 19 young Arabs could not have done this no matter how crazed they were than why are we attacking oil rich Arab countries?

Why is it easier for us to believe 19 young Arabs were able to do the impossible and it is OK for us to destroy their countries than take the time and ask for a new and independent investigation?

Why do I write here? I want to debate with the people here because this is a political site with people trying to make sense out of the political landscape they live in. We are heading for one of the most important elections this country has ever seen and I want to get things on the political agenda.
For example I want this country out of Afghanistan. I want the NZ troops save and home.
I don’t want politicians like Helen Clark or John Key making political hay out of the destruction of any country and I want to have the Afghanistan debacle and monstrosity of DU on the political agenda and if you have any decency you should too.
lukas 130

19 September 2008 at 11:33 am

for those of you wanting a readers digest version of the above two comments… Bush blew up the towers then dumped uranium on his own troops.

John Key is to blame for all of this as he has a holiday home in a small island in the Pacific.
Vanilla Eis 131

19 September 2008 at 11:48 am

Eve: no, I didn’t check out the NIST site, because I came to this thread looking for a discussion about NZ’s political motivations for entering or avoiding the Iraq war. I’m not terribly interested in 9/11, and I’m certain that many do not share your unbridled enthusiasm. This is why they do not appreciate your thread-jacking as much as you might like, and leads to frayed tempers and name calling.

Please, leave the 9/11 stuff to threads about 9/11 (Amazingly, I don’t think I’ve seen a single one, but I know I’ve read maybe close to 100 posts from you on the topic) and post relevant political things in the relevant political threads.

Lynn appears to be far more tolerant than many of the other posters here.
travellerev 132

19 September 2008 at 12:08 pm

OK VE,

We’ll just take a few minor events like two bloody great big wars totally out of context and discuss them shall we.

In blissful ignorance about the historical context and firmly believing that all Arabs are our enemies and deserve what they get because Oh, wait a minute yeah, they attacked us on 911. So it’s ok to use 911 as an excuse to destroy ancient countries and their peoples under the guise of bringing freedom and democracy while bombing the fuck out off them with DU but we will not examine that day to make sure that what we are doing is actually justified.

Sounds like a plan mate.

And while you lot do that a little under 1300 people visited my site yesterday and what did they want to learn most about? Ooh oops, New Zealand’s role in Afghanistan and the events of 911. And many of them came via this site. So perhaps you don’t give a fuck but there are plenty who actually do. On sites like this only a handful of people actually bother to comment but trust me this site has plenty of lurkers and they are curious and it seems pretty open minded.

And who knows VE (your name always conjures up that bland white rapper from way back) perhaps Lynn is one of them.

And thank you for reading all my posts who knows something might actually stick one day.
lukas 133

19 September 2008 at 12:11 pm

Eve- how did VE’s comment say that at all? Way to read something into it thats not there
higherstandard 134

19 September 2008 at 12:12 pm

Danger danger don’t engage don’t engage !
travellerev 135

19 September 2008 at 12:22 pm

Neh, HS

Can’t be bothered. He’s such a runt. Just like I won’t bother with you.
lukas 136

19 September 2008 at 12:28 pm

….how do you know that? Are they watching me and feeding you information? Maybe I should head to the cafe downstairs and borrow their stash of tin foil and wrap the walls of my office in it?

sigh.
Vanilla Eis 137

19 September 2008 at 1:01 pm

Eve: … and you totally missed my point.

If you want people to read your site, then link to it in your name (which you do) and make partial posts here, with a link to the rest of the post. It’s still threadjacking, but it’s a bit less intrusive.

This post was not about 9/11, or even related. It was about whether or not it is right for NZ to follow the US into a war to strengthen our relationship. The justification for Iraq was never that Saddam supported the 9/11 bombers, so there’s no need for you to bring it up.

Instead, you could perhaps write a post about how the US continually fuck over any country they sign a FTA with, and why the hell would we want one anyway?

vto, HS and Rex told you to ‘fuck off’ because you’re distracting from the debate. They’re frustrated that we cannot even broach a topic like this without a barrage from you. You might notice that they don’t manage to agree with each other on anything other than the fact that your 9/11 conspiracy posts are annoying.

So, please, just stop ramming this stuff down our throats. Fine, make small posts occasionally to get your site some traffic, but I don’t even want to count the number of words you’ve left behind on this page that most people will skip as soon as they see your name.
rave 138

19 September 2008 at 1:01 pm

Trav:
Yeah I bet Key would have used the same arguments, that war with Iraq in the last analysis was necessary as part of the war on terror. 9/11 gave them the moral high ground to get into genocide. Hypocrites.
And Key would have been in like Saakashvili with thousands of troops to suck up to Bush. That historical scenario precedes any debate about how many body bags might have eventuated.

The righties here while backing Key know that the body count is what turns people against wars. They don’t ask questions when a few almost accidental deaths occur (like the Aussie who shot himself) or about wars authorised by the UN, but 60 body bags, that’s embarrassing, that has to be explained.

OK so let’s work back in history from today cause that’s when the election is. Key’s now ambivalent on the war, he even thinks its over. Therefore, he probably wouldve been advised not to go (he might have listened to Rodney). Anyway, if he did go, it would have been proportional to Aust, therefore our body count would have to be proportional, i.e. none.

So thanks for the history lesson. Especially Franz Ferdinand. They were wars for oil even then.
travellerev 139

19 September 2008 at 2:05 pm

Lucas,

What a strange thing to be contemplating, I use tinfoil for BBQ’s and covering food etc.

VE

VE, HS, Lucas, vto and to a somewhat lesser extend T-rex, yeah you really represent the Standard and it’s readers. A bunch of self-righteous pendantic twits who can barely manage one sentence and who slam on anyone with a different point of view. Not.

Read my answer to Matthew Pilot as to why I write here and it’s not because I want people to read my blogs. That is just a bonus.

I find the energy you put in trying to shut me up equally annoying but since some readers here actually think that my research and links count for something I hope that you don’t mind that for the time being I’ll just continue what I’m doing and ignore your bullying.

vto and T-rex told me to get fucked because I dared to call Billy a typical pakeha middle class bloke and vto took offence to that and so did T-rex.

What is it with guys like you and Billy that keeps you talking in the royal “we” anyway. I don’t know anybody on this site so I won’t presume there is many of “we” on my side. I just write and sometimes I get good feedback and sometimes bad but you guys always make it about we the many and you the lone nut to shut people up.

I approach our involvement in the Afghan and Iraq war from the point of view that 911 wasn’t committed by 19 Arabs because it was scientifically impossible and therefore both wars are illegal and genocidal and all who partake are committing the ultimate war crime; Both wars are illegal first strike wars of aggression and the perpetrators should therefore be send to the Hague and tried accordingly. That was what the Nuremberg trials were all about.

Since according to my point of view the responsible ones probably were part of the Pentagon and criminal factions within the US government, cooperation with them is criminal and whether we do so for personal gain in free trade agreements (with a bankrupt country?) or idealism is neither here nor there.

The wars play out as for profit and we should therefore pull back our troops. To continue to cooperate with parties who destroy and kill for personal gain is criminal in it self and for Helen Clark to use the war in Iraq to gain political points on John Key is disingenuous and dishonest but she can only do so because Kiwi’s generally still believe that we are the good guys in Afghanistan.

You may or may not like my point of view but to tell me to not speak from that point of view just because you don’t believe it or because you don’t care or you don’t want to be confronted by the fact that millions of people everyday wake up to the inconsistencies in the official version because their governments allow documentaries to be shown on TV or their media are more independent than ours(20 million Russians saw Zero 911, and Italian documentary on the 11th of this month for example Italians have produced many 911 documentaries but than they had the CIA organise Gladio and bomb attacks in their country to content with) and are given information about the deceit on that day world wide via their TV’s and media except in the Anglo-Saxon countries, is asking me to censor myself.

It’s like saying you can only talk if you talk in my paradigm and that means you are behaving like a little boy with fingers in his ears and yelling at the top of his voice, “I can’t hear you” when told something you don’t want to hear.
Nobody is forcing you to read what I write so just get over yourself OK and stop behaving like a child.

Thanks Rave,

McCain and that creepy Palin were chosen to run with a video of the towers burning in the background. Sick, absolutely sick.
And John Key’s remark about the Iraq war being over just shows what a political debacle his foreign policy would be. Yuk.
T-Rex 140

19 September 2008 at 8:32 pm

“I do so because after three long years of 8 hours a day study”

I can’t decide if that’s more hillarious or depressing. I think it’s depressing.

—

To others above – thanks for the support. HS is on the mark though, refusal to engage is the only thing that works, ALL attempts to reason have, thus far, been TOTALLY ignored. I could make a list as long as my arm of insults and denial of established facts. And that’s if I used some sort of microfiche – in #8 font it would stretch the length of a street.

Don’t play with the tantrum child! It will bring no good to your soul or sanity! Learn from my incredibly ill-advised sacrifice of time and energy! Follow the teachings of the great and wise Bill Brown who did say unto me “T-Rex : Zip it”.

Bill: I’m a-zippin’. One day I may acheive Zen 🙂
travellerev 141

20 September 2008 at 2:11 am

T-rex,

Buildings reinforced to withstand a nuclear blast do not collapse in 6.5 sec due to an office fire, it is that simple.

Established facts my ass. deuh, Thermal expansion?

You claim to be a physicist do the math, do your job, you dimwit.
higherstandard 142

20 September 2008 at 8:30 am

Dear Tulip

Very few office fires have been started by airliners flying into buildings while loaded with fuel.

Have you ever heard of gravity apparently it exists.

Danger danger don’t engage.
Go The Right 143

20 September 2008 at 8:58 am

Great work done here by The Kiwiblog crew just showing how low Helen will go to remain in Power. We all expect her to dredge some of these up next.
Why is Key so silent on that day in Dallas on the grassy knoll and what was he up to in Sarajevo in 1914?
John Key disabled the warning signal at Tangiwai.
John Key has been known to mix formula milk at home,
Financing Osama BinLaden whilst at Merrill Lynch
Members of the Manson cult are also known to have celebrated John Key’s 8th birthday by slaughtering Sharon Tate and others
John Key was also seen leaving Cape Canaveral prior to the launch of Challenger, with an o-ring hanging out of his briefcase.
He was smoking a cigar on the Hindenburg too.
I understand he was seen near a hill outside Jerusalem one Easter over 2000 years ago carrying a hammer and three nails as well. However,
He was also seen fiddling with the hatch of Apollo 1
It was JK that gave Greg Chappell the idea
Add up the Ascii values of the characters “John KEY’ and you get 664. makes John Key the neighbour of the Beast
John Key shot Bambi’s mum
Does he have an alibi for September 10 2001? Has anyone in the MSM thought to check?
At the 1995 Rugby World Cup, dressed as a waitress called Suzie, John Key
it was not the Grinch who stole Christmas. Indeed it was John Key.
John Key is actually Elvis. He faked his own death to join the National Party.
John Key dumped all his shares in Union Carbide in November 1984
John Key framed Roger Rabbit. And Winston.
A JohnKey stole my baby!’ not a dingo

[lprent: Tell me – do you understand how to link? Read the FAQ. There is really no need to copy and paste except to illustrate a point. ]
T-Rex 144

20 September 2008 at 9:13 am

“John Key shot Bambi’s mum”

That one’s true – the rifling on the bullet matches the one pulled from JFK.
travellerev 145

20 September 2008 at 9:49 am

HS,

WTC 7 was not hit by an airplane you fuckwit.
Gravity is actually a very weak force and can easily be withstood by a light weight bird.
It does not collapse reinforced to withstand nuclear blasts buildings after an office fire. Oh, and these are the exlosions preceding the collapse and funny enough firemen apparently knowing that the building was being pulled.

T-rex you’re a smart man, look at it and show me were you think I’m going wrong. You’re a physicist do your job.

And guess what pathetically called “gotheright” your John Key was managing “debt” in 1999 when the subprime crisis was born and prepared and he was happily advising Alan Greenspan as a rep for Merrill Lynch together with guys from Citigroup, UBSWarburg, Lehman Bros, Ooh oops, the four banks most affected so far by the financial collapse of the western world.
travellerev 146

20 September 2008 at 10:12 am

Oh HS,

The planes were not fully loaded with Kerosene and most off it burned of in the first few seconds. HS I don’t expect you to understand you simply don’t possess enough brains but T-rex, black smoke, you physicist you, black smoke coming from a fire?

Ever tried to cook on LPG on a LNG (Liqued natural gas) stove? Soot baby soot. Lots of soot.
Black yukky stuff in the dish washing machine. A Cold fire. An inefficient fuel to air ratio, you numbskull.

Office fires, even badly burning ones started by Kerosene, do not bring down steel reinforced skyscrapers in freefall (10 and 11 seconds) clouds of pyroclastic flows.

And to get back to the thread: We should not be involved in the wars that were started as a result of 911 because it was an inside job. It was a false flag operation that killed two New Zealanders amongst others.

Out fishing and whitebaiting today dear baiters, hope you can wait until sundown for more real world info. LOL.
RedLogix 147

20 September 2008 at 11:32 am

Even when the 911 Commissioners themselves repudiated the very investigation they had presided over as “set up to fail”…. most people still could not bring themselves to admit to even the tiniest bit of doubt about the report and still refer to it as authoritative. Still to this day refuse to examine or even debate the hundreds of questions and contradictions in the official story.

The hard, weird reality is that no matter what evidence comes to light, most people have too much psychologically invested in the official story to ever abandon it now.
higherstandard 148

20 September 2008 at 12:04 pm

Tulip

I think you must have been smoking your own dung again.

WTC7 was not hit by any airplanes but there does tend to be considerable damage caused when two of the worlds largest skyscrapers collapse next door – it’s a bugger that gravity !

Add to that the fires that were going on and you get a recipe for a collapse.

Black smoke is likely to have been caused by combustible material inside the buildings, including rugs, curtains, furniture and paper.

Red Logix I think you mistake healthy scepticism with over paranoia !

In any situation one needs to ask what’s the more likely answer. A group of nuts who decided to hijack jet liners and fly them into buildings or a conspiracy which involved the US government being complicit in hijacking jet liners and murdering their own citizens.

Eve has embedded herself in her own belief set which is fine but she should keep it to her own blog where people actually want to discuss it …. or not.
randal 149

20 September 2008 at 12:25 pm

hs is there any possibility that you could refrain from insulting everybody you disagree with?
higherstandard 150

20 September 2008 at 1:29 pm

Randal are you HS ?
Felix 151

20 September 2008 at 4:08 pm

We’re all pretty much accustomed to your condescending attitude Dr higherstandard, but why the racist slur “Tulip”?

Bit off even for you isn’t it?
travellerev 152

20 September 2008 at 4:46 pm

HS,

Your ignorance is truly staggering.

According to NIST there was no damage to speak of and no steel framed building has ever before or after 911 collapsed due to fire even though there have been fires much hotter. According to NIST it was the thermal expansion of one beam which caused the building to collapse in freefall speed into pulverised concrete into it’s own footprint in 6.5 seconds. They usually pay millions to have this done with controlled demolition but I guess all we need is a little fossil fuel and a BIC lighter from now on.

The Twin towers also collapsed into pulverised dust and WTC 7 was in the outer debris field with many other buildings which did not collapse. Some of these buildings are still standing and are to toxic to be taken down. Three years after the attacks bone fragments were found on the roof of Deutsche bank 60 meters away from were the towers had stood. Gravity does not blow bone fragments everywhere.

A building twice reinforced to withstand a nuclear blast (Giuliani’s bunker was housed in the building) does not collapse into fine dust because some file cabinets caught on fire.
Listen to Barry Jennings who died mysteriously two days before the NIST rapport was made public and who told the world of the explosions inside the WTC 7 before the either of the Towers collapsed. He was not alone that day. He was with Michael Hess on his way to Giuliani’s bunker who confirmed the story that Jennings told.
travellerev 153

20 September 2008 at 4:47 pm

RedLogic

You know what is so surprising is the fact that most people now more than ever seem to wake up from the fear induced that day.

Around the world there are huge groups going out the 11th of every month to give information and 80% of Americans now want a new and independent investigation.

In New York activists have collected 30.000 signatures to get a new investigation going and they did so with the help of celebrities such a Governor Jesse Ventura, Willie Nelson, Green presidential candidate Cynthia McKinney, Christine Ebersole, Sen. Mike Gravel, Daniel Sunjata(rescue me), State Senator Karen Johnson to name a few.

We have been told by journalists that 911 is officially taboo on NZTV 1 and 2 and may not be discussed even though the journalists we spoke to want to put some of the documentaries on.

On the 11th of September 20 million Russians watched a mainstream Italian documentary called Zero 911. this film has been shown to Italians on mainstream TV and a lot of European senders.

It is just that in New Zealand all the major media is either foreign owned or state controlled and you have dimwits like HS who thinks he knows it all.

By the way if you want to know how most of the families of those who perished in the towers feel about the 911 (all of whom had ties to the military industrial complex) commission you could watch 911 Press for truth about four republican Bush voting 911 widows and their heart wrenching quest to find out what happened on that day and how they had to fight to even get the 911 commission formed.
T-Rex 154

20 September 2008 at 6:33 pm

To clarify my position – I’m not claiming that no element or affiliate of the US government was involved in orchestrating the 9/11 attacks. It’s possible, motive and opportunity both exist, and it’s quite possible we’ll never know for sure.

Trav, I’m not arguing with you, I’ve done so at great length before and got nowhere because you are completely close minded and have spent (as you say above) 3 years at 8 hours a day entrenching yourself in the mindset you’ve picked. In that time you could have done an engineering degree and would actually understand the arguments you are making (and their flaws) but instead you mindlessly recite mantras such as “6.4 seconds” and “pyroclastic flow” as though they somehow lend credibility to your argument – all the while ignoring the obvious (such as, especially in the case of wtc 1 and 2, video evidence). So, there’s nothing to be gained by arguing the point with you.

So far, the only thing I agree on you about is DU, which is nasty shit (but that’s nothing unusual in war). However, the US has not “bombed the sh*t” out of anyone with it – DU is used for kinetic penetrators, rarely present in bombs. Just to be clear on the cause of gulf war syndrome though – it’s heavy metal toxicity, not radioactivity. I’m only mentioning this because radioactivity is what people usually associate with uranium.

“Gravity does not blow bone fragments everywhere.”

Please please just stop. You honestly have no idea what you’re talking about at all and it’s painful. Go back and read all that stuff I wrote so long ago about energy dissipated in the tower falling that far and dispute it if you can ON THAT THREAD. And with REASONING, not buzzwords and emotive rants.

For what it’s worth, I think the lifestyle you’ve chosen sounds great and is probably good for the world, I just hope you stop spending so much time on a pointless web crusade one day. Especially in consideration of the fact that:
1) Your car still doesn’t run on water,
2) You’re becoming that which you claim to hate (you’re rude, you ignore facts, and you try to shout down and insult anyone who disagrees with you while using “oppressed persons” language to defend your actions).

So far every single time I raise a valid point you just completely ignore the implications (and it’s happened often enough to be statistical certainty), so you must be able to understand my reluctance to try again.

Especially since there are mountains to be explored.

Adios
higherstandard 155

21 September 2008 at 9:16 am

Felix can you tell me what other flowers are racist slurs so I can avoid hurting your delicate sensibilities.
travellerev 156

21 September 2008 at 1:10 pm

T-rex,

About our fuel cell: On the 10th of September I drove with a full tank of gas from somewhere near Hamilton to Wellington. I arrived at Wellington with 620 km on the clock and still above the empty line.
My car used to have a maximum range of 450km. That makes for a 170 km increase and I could have driven a lot longer. On the 12th I drove back and arrived at my home with 580 km on the clock and the day after we drove an additional 70 km before we filled her up again. The gauge had only just touched the empty mark. I don’t know about you but that is good mileage in my book and all that with the help of a little bit of water.

About the closed mind thing on 911. I did not choose a mindset. it took me about a year and a half to accept that 19 young men could not have done what the US government claimed they had done and another 1.5 years to read watch whatever material I could find to be sure I had come to the right conclusion.

About the you don’t know what your talking about bit the following. Whatever, you physicist you, the man who doesn’t comprehend Newtons laws of motion and believes that the amount of energy needed to pulverise three huge steel framed buildings in freefall speed of 6.5, 10 and 11 sec could come from two not fully fuelled planes.

Regardless of what you think it is very important; the time it takes to pulverise buildings into their own footprint.
People used to pay millions to have buildings blown up with that kind of precision. I guess they must feel pretty ripped off knowing now that all it really takes is a couple of office fires and and the thermal expansion of just one beam to collapse a 47 floor skyscraper reinforced twice to withstand a nuclear blast into a pile of dust into its own footprint in just 6.5 seconds. LOL.

Any way you may think I’m stupid but I’m in bloody good company with scholars, architects and engineers, Fire fighters, pilots, militaryand other US patriots all wanting a new and independent investigation whereas you have to do with losers like HS and Billy, oh and that other nitwit, Lucas which is sad really because you are not entirely stupid and I like a lot of what you write.

By the way DU is not just nasty stuff now but will be for the next 4.5 billion year. It used to be that the effects of war would wear of over a few decennia, but these wars will never, ever stop, and not just for the Iraqis and Afghans, but for the US soldiers and the soldiers of every country that has troops stationed in both countries and that includes the New Zealand troops. That is a huge difference.

For the person still believing that DU is only used as a an armour piercing weapon: DU is now used in every form of projectile. from bullet to grenade to bomb.

Hi Felix,

The term Tulip, coming from a thoroughly pathetic character with the moniker Higherstandard (whatever) is a batch of honour to me but thanks for calling him on his condescending pratty behaviour.
travellerev 157

21 September 2008 at 1:11 pm

Bugger, in purgatory again. Help, Heeeelp.

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Day One of the Treaty Principles Bill…and everyone got what they wanted, and did what they liked. Heated words were exchanged. Culturally appropriate acts of outrage were performed. David Seymour got to play the victim card. Willie Jackson got kicked out of class. A comically red-faced Mr Speaker bellowed “Order, ...

WerewolfBy ScoopEditor

5 days ago
Skeptical Science New Research for Week #46 2024

Open access notables Microbial solutions must be deployed against climate catastrophe, Peixoto et al., Nature Communications [comment]: The climate crisis is escalating. A multitude of microbe-based solutions have been proposed, and these technologies hold great promise and could be deployed along with other climate mitigation strategies. However, these solutions have ...

Skeptical Science

5 days ago
The PM gets some extremely valuable legal advice for free

You can pay a great deal of money for the services of a KC. So just what would some peerless legal writing from 40 or so of them be worth, do you reckon?Priceless, that’s what. It’s not even the half of it, but this is my favourite part of the ...

More Than A FeildingBy David Slack

5 days ago
D-day for the government

The government's Treaty Principles Bill is up for its first reading today - bought forward in a rush in a desperate effort to avoid the hikoi which is currently marching on Wellington. But the Prime Minister won’t be there for it – he’s literally running away to Peru! But he ...

No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant

5 days ago
97% of submissions did not want no-cause evictions, Trump chooses a Russian spy for US Intelligence ...

Good morning, and I’m sorry I’ve been away for a couple of days.I’ve been focusing on the Hikoi, and also testing out sentiment on the Treaty Principles Bill. It’s complicated, and the Treaty Principles Bill will be debated in the House today. The Government’s own lawyers have told them the ...

Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tui

5 days ago
Government must vote down ACT Members Bill that would undermine workers’ rights

NZCTU Te Kauae Kaimahi President Richard Wagstaff is calling on the Government to vote down an ACT Party Members Bill that would undermine workers’ rights by making it easier for employers to fire workers. Last week ACT MP Laura Trask’s Employment Relations (Termination of Employment by Agreement) Amendment Bill was ...

NZCTUBy Jeremiah Boniface

5 days ago
Seymour causes thousands of unjustified absences by forcing kids to fight for their rights instead o...

The State would like to remind you that they are in control. They manage your employment prospects, and can destroy the job market you and yours rely on by mass-cancelling construction projects, cutting funding, and firing a good chunk of our public servants. They wield the mechanisms that provide scrutiny ...

Sapphi’s SubstackBy Sapphi

5 days ago
The Weight of the World

As the weight of the world Hangs on your shoulders The weight of the world Starts to take over again And over again All that you once loved, now you hate So slowly relearn how to meditate To have and to hold And never let go Can you feel it ...

Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel

5 days ago
Thursday 14 November 2024

The Treaty Principles Bill is set to have its First Reading in the House today, as the Hīkoi mō Te Tiriti continues. More than 40 KCs have written to the Prime Minister and Attorney-General outlining their “grave concerns” about the substance of the Treaty Principles Bill, while an academic and ...

NZCTUBy Jeremiah Boniface

5 days ago
Trump’s return to White House brings the climate’s ‘find out’ phase closer

As we absorb the news of Trump's victory in the US Presidential election, here’s a wrap compiled just before the result of what it might mean for climate action: The UN Secretary General says the prospective departure of the United States would cripple the Paris Agreement, likening it to the ...

The KakaBy Bernard Hickey

5 days ago
Time and Space in the City Centre

Patrick Reynolds is deputy chair of the City Centre Advisory Panel. The header image is from Walthamstow, London The city centre now has a few stretches of street where the space has been repurposed to a people and place focused design from full time traffic use. These are a great ...

Greater AucklandBy Patrick Reynolds

5 days ago
An opportunity for a pro-growth tax switch

As the Hikoi against it swells into the tens of thousands, KCs call on National to kill off ACT’s divisive Treaty Principles Bill. Photo: Getty ImagesKia ora. Long stories short, here’s my top things to note in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate and poverty on Thursday, November 14: The ...

The KakaBy Bernard Hickey

5 days ago
Dealing to the big Aussie banks

The big question hovering over the Select Committee Inquiry into banking is what the Government will do with its findings. If yesterday’s hearing is anything to go by there is a tidal wave of discontent about the four big Australian Banks crashing through the Committee which may force it to ...

PolitikBy Richard Harman

6 days ago
20 fact briefs published in collaboration with Gigafact!

In April 2024 we announced the (renewed) collaboration between Gigafact and Skeptical Science to create fact briefs, short but credibly sourced summaries that offer “yes/no” answers in response to claims found online. Our initial plan had been to publish one fact brief per week on Saturdays but - as happens ...

Skeptical Science

6 days ago
Instead of axing the HRC, ACT corruptly installed a racist, transphobic “Gay Human Rights Commissi...

On November 5th, the Spinoff published a very interesting article on Stephen Rainbow, the Human Rights Commission’s latest recruitment, and how he came to get the controversial appointment. Naturally because of the excitement of the US election, it’s flown a little below the radar. https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/05-11-2024/i-didnt-get-the-hrc-job-stephen-rainbows-human-rights-commission-appointment-just-got-weirderThe article details evidence of the ...

Sapphi’s SubstackBy Sapphi

6 days ago
Injustice for torture

Between 1950 and 1993 the New Zealand government tortured and abused up to 250,000 children in residential care facilities. Yesterday, following formal findings from a royal commission, it finally apologised for that abuse. The next step is redress and restitution - compensating the surviving victims for the appalling harm they ...

No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant

6 days ago
Voices echo

Back onto the harbour bridge I go, my happy place for protesting.And it truly is a happy place, this day.Protests can bristle a lot, but this one is all heart. The WOMAD of protest marches. Families are safe and happy and a little one is pushing the trolley her older ...

More Than A FeildingBy David Slack

6 days ago
Hīkoi over the Harbour

Kia mau ra, kia mau raKi te mana motuhakeMe te arohaHold fast, hold fastTo your sovereigntyAnd to love and compassionLyrics: Hīrini Melbourne. “Ngā Iwi E passionately calls for unity among the peoples of the Pacific, a cause deeply cherished by Melbourne himself.”I sat at my desk this morning and thought ...

Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel

6 days ago
Western Express turns one in style

The Western Express, the precursor to a proper busway, and other changes to West Auckland bus services are now a year old and Auckland Transport says they’ve been a smashing success, with ridership up 45 per cent higher than what was expected. Auckland Transport’s (AT) new North West bus network ...

Greater AucklandBy Matt L

6 days ago
Victims of abuse want Una Jagose to go

Kia ora. Long stories short, here’s my top six things to note in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate and poverty on Wednesday, November 13: The Lead: The Government and Opposition apologised yesterday for the abuse of hundreds of thousands of children in state care over decades. But PM Christopher ...

The KakaBy Bernard Hickey

6 days ago
Sabin 33 #2 – Are toxic heavy metals from solar panels posing a threat to human health?

On November 1, 2024 we announced the publication of 33 rebuttals based on the report "Rebutting 33 False Claims About Solar, Wind, and Electric Vehicles" written by Matthew Eisenson, Jacob Elkin, Andy Fitch, Matthew Ard, Kaya Sittinger & Samuel Lavine and published by the Sabin Center for Climate Change Law at Columbia ...

Skeptical Science

7 days ago
Peaceful Māori Hikoi Advances – In Pictures

Today the Hikoi moves from Whangarei and makes its way to Auckland Flag: McKinley Rd Creatives ShareFor official updates and information, including schedules, go to:https://toitutetiriti.co.nz/The Waitangi Tribunal Cheat Sheet:When asked what the Treaty Principles Bill contravenes these are some of the points highlighted by our judiciary:The Crown's process to develop the Bill ...

Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tui

1 week ago
Media Link: “A View from Afar” on the US elections.

The latest “A View from Afar” with Selwyn Manning and I follows the lines drawn in my most recent post here at KP. Because the podcast is basically a dialogue between Selwyn and I on the subject of the day, … Continue reading → ...

KiwipoliticoBy Pablo

1 week ago
Jagose doesn’t get it

The government held a formal apology ceremony this morning to victims of child torture and abuse-in-care. One of those "apologising" was Solicitor-General Una Jagose, who had played a key role in devising and implementing the government's legal strategy of aggressively minimising its liabilities, slandering its victims, and waiting for them ...

No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant

1 week ago
Oranga Tamariki is beyond saving, and always has been

How do you continue an organisation widely known for the abuse and torture of children, for wrongfully separating them from their parents, for the neglect and death of actually vulnerable children they failed to support and uplift, and for creating a cycle of trauma that has led to multi-generational state ...

Sapphi’s SubstackBy Sapphi

1 week ago
The Majority is Wrong

Freak outAnd give inDoesn't matter what you believe inStay coolAnd be somebody's fool this year'Cause they knowWho is righteous, what is boldSo I'm toldWho wants honey?As long as there's some moneyWho wants that, honey?Lyrics: Billy CorganJust because the majority support something doesn’t make it right. Yes, in a democracy, the ...

Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel

1 week ago
Tuesday 12 November 2024

Today Prime Minister Christopher Luxon will formally apologise to those who experienced abuse in state and faith-based care at Parliament. The apology is long overdue, and many are saying it’s not enough and are still waiting on the details of redress. There are also criticisms about the decision to give ...

NZCTUBy Jeremiah Boniface

1 week ago
3 Takeaways from Christopher Luxon’s Press Conference

Highlights of Chris Luxon press conference yesterday (video at end):1. Christopher Luxon maligns Newsroom’s investigative journalist Aaron Smale for what he called behavioural issues. Yesterday, it was revealed Speaker Gary Brownlee had withdrew Smale’s accreditation, preventing Smale from attending the Abuse in Care apology at Parliament today. Smale is an ...

Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tui

1 week ago
The 30/30 fiscal rule that rules us all

Fonterra is selling off brands made up of decades of R&D and marketing spend. Why? Because farmers need to repay debt so banks can increase mortgage lending. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāKia ora. Long stories short, here’s my top six things to note in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, ...

The KakaBy Bernard Hickey

1 week ago
2024 will be the first year above 1.5°C

This is a re-post from The Climate Brink, and an excerpt from a much more detailed State of the Climate Q3 2024 report that I published over at Carbon Brief today. See that for more details on climate model/observation comparisons, sea ice extent, and other climate variables. The warmest year on record In my ...

Skeptical Science

1 week ago
150 days of rail disruption to come

Kiwirail and Auckland Transport have revealed that the rail network will be closed or partially closed for nearly 149 days between Christmas this year and the end of January 2026, almost 38% of the time, as part of what they’re calling the final push to get the rail network ready ...

Greater AucklandBy Matt L

1 week ago
How Netflix Got Cold Feet

Hi,I’m not sure if you’ve noticed recently, but discovering stuff on Netflix can be kind of hard.Sure — you’re presented with a bunch of categories like “Top 10” when you login, but outside of those initial lists, finding things that are compelling and worth your time seems close to impossible. ...

David FarrierBy David Farrier

1 week ago
Seymour is only beginning

ACT Leader David Seymour is undeterred by the likelihood that his Treaty Principles Bill will die in the House when it returns from the Select Committee sometime in the first half of next year. He believes the debate has only just begun and will continue to eventual success even though ...

PolitikBy Richard Harman

1 week ago
Gordon Campbell on the Crown’s sorry excuse for an apology

The world over, politicians are finding “sorry” to be the easiest word. Without disclosing the size and formula of the monetary compensation that the government is prepared to offer to those abused while in state care, a mere apology verges on being another form of abuse. It’s not as if ...

WerewolfBy ScoopEditor

1 week ago
Let Aaron Smale take his rightful seat, you dismal dismal people

This is Aaron Smale.Journalist Aaron Smale appearing as a witness at the Royal Commission. Newsroom Screenshot.For eight years he has covered the abuse of children and others in state institutions.For eight years he has helped to bring to light the many lies and coverups by the Crown.He has written some ...

More Than A FeildingBy David Slack

1 week ago
Monday 11 November 2024

Today the Hīkoi mō Te Tiriti set off from Te Rerenga Wairua and is making its way through the North, stopping in Whangārei for the night. In union news, it has been announced that plastic factory Sistema is likely to cut up to 100 jobs. A new report written by ...

NZCTUBy Jeremiah Boniface

1 week ago
National suppresses the media

The government is doing its formal apology to victims of abuse-in-care at Parliament tomorrow, along with introducing a (still secret) bill addressing restitution. It will obviously be a big media event. But Newsroom's Aaron Smale, a journalist who has played a key role in exposing crown failure and wrongdoing in ...

No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant

1 week ago
Speeding toward a lethal legacy

A few weeks ago I wrote on how the Minister of Transport Simeon Brown had misrepresented cities overseas in his crusade to make our streets and roads more dangerous. Since then, his speed rule has been finalised and signed. Also, the summary of public feedback has been released after many ...

Greater AucklandBy Connor Sharp

1 week ago

Justice Select Committee opens floor for Treaty Principles submissions

Today, the Justice Select Committee has decided to officially open submissions for the controversial Treaty Principles Bill. ...

Greens

8 hours ago
Power of the people on full display as hīkoi approaches Parliament

Today, Hīkoi mō te Tiriti arrived in Wellington, with thousands gathering to march in unity against the divisive Treaty Principles Bill. ...

Greens

9 hours ago
Hypocrisy as Te Whatu Ora contractor bill balloons

Te Whatu Ora’s bill for contracting and consulting staff has ballooned by nearly 20 percent under the National Government, breaking a promise they made during the election campaign to cut contractors. ...

Labour Blog

1 day ago
Release: Growing pressure to scrap Section 7AA Repeal Bill

The newly released Section 7AA Repeal Bill's select committee report is further evidence that the Government should scrap it. ...

Labour Blog

2 days ago
Government’s move to monetise access to nature a slippery slope

The Green Party is voicing serious concerns over the Government’s proposal to charge for access to public conservation land, released today. ...

Greens

4 days ago
Green Party condemns the passage of Treaty Principles Bill

The Green Party condemns the passing of the Treaty Principles Bill at first reading, and is clear that the fight is not over. ...

Greens

5 days ago
Stand Up for Te Tiriti

Te Tiriti o Waitangi is our country’s founding document. It forms the basis of the relationship between Māori and the Crown – and the Aotearoa New Zealand we live in today. ...

Labour Blog

5 days ago
Release: Over 15,000 sign Labour’s open letter to Luxon

As the hīkoi to Parliament continues, Labour has sent an open letter to Prime Minister Christopher Luxon in a last-ditch attempt to get him to kill the Treaty Principles Bill. ...

Labour Blog

5 days ago
Fast Track Bill threatens environment, climate and reputation

The fast-track legislation passing its second reading in Parliament is another step towards environmental ruin. ...

Greens

6 days ago
Greens join King’s Counsel in calling for Treaty Principles Bill to be abandoned

The Prime Minister must answer the call from a group of senior lawyers of the King’s Counsel to abandon the divisive Treaty Principles Bill. ...

Greens

6 days ago
Chris Hipkins’ apology statement to state and faith-based care survivors

...

Labour Blog

1 week ago
Release: Labour formally apologises to state and faith-based care survivors

Labour joins with the Government in unreservedly apologising for the abuse, neglect and trauma including torture in state and faith-based care and for ignoring the voices of survivors for too long. ...

Labour Blog

1 week ago
Green Party stands in support of survivors of abuse in care

Today, the Green Party stands alongside the survivors of abuse in state care and faith-based care as the Government issues an historic apology. ...

Greens

1 week ago
Green Party calls for conscience vote on Treaty Principles Bill

The Green Party has written to the Speaker of the House requesting he enable a personal vote on the Treaty Principles Bill. ...

Greens

1 week ago
Govt move to exclude journalist risks chilling effect

The Green Party is alarmed by the Government’s move to exclude a journalist from covering this week’s apology for the survivors of abuse in state and faith-based care. ...

Greens

1 week ago
Without action, an apology will be empty air

For tomorrow’s apology to survivors of abuse in state and faith-based care to hold any water, the Government must not pursue the same policies that drove the abuse in the first place. ...

Greens

1 week ago
Release: Concerns remain over tobacco interference

Concerns about the tobacco industry’s ability to interfere in government policy making remain, despite the inability of the Office of the Auditor-General to investigate the Government’s decision to halve the excise tax on heated tobacco products. ...

Labour Blog

2 weeks ago
Urgent wake-up call on climate

The Climate Change Commission’s latest advice indicates Aotearoa needs to be stepping up on climate action. ...

Greens

2 weeks ago
Green MP’s Meme-ber’s Bill set to save the world

Break out the punchlines and dust off your meme folder: Green Party MP Kahurangi Carter’s Copyright (Parody and Satire) Amendment Bill was pulled from the Ballot yesterday. ...

Greens

2 weeks ago
Release: Poroporoaki: Ta Robert (Bom) Gillies

Kua hinga te manawa kairākau o Te Rua Tekau Ma Waru Tiwhatiwha te po! Kakarauru i te po! Ka rapuhia kei hea koe kua riro! Haere e te Ika a Whiro ki o tini hoa kua ngaro atu ki te Pō ...

Labour Blog

2 weeks ago
Labour, Greens and Te Pāti Māori call on the Prime Minister to block the Treaty Principles Bill

The opposition parties stand united for an Aotearoa that honours Te Tiriti, rather than seeking to rewrite it. Labour, the Greens and Te Pāti Māori are working together against the Government’s divisive Treaty Principles Bill. ...

Greens

2 weeks ago
Release: Labour, Greens and Te Pāti Māori call on the Prime Minister to block the Treaty Principle...

The opposition parties stand united for an Aotearoa that honours Te Tiriti, rather than seeking to rewrite it. Labour, the Greens and Te Pāti Māori are working together against the Government’s divisive Treaty Principles Bill. ...

Labour Blog

2 weeks ago
NZ must pursue independent foreign policy

The Green Party says the need is greater than ever for Aotearoa New Zealand to pursue an independent foreign policy. ...

Greens

2 weeks ago
Release: Winston Peters must apologise

The Deputy Prime Minister should apologise to the public servant he named and blamed for something they did not do, and for misusing the rules of Parliament. ...

Labour Blog

2 weeks ago
Release: Government continues to fail small business

The Government is leaving small businesses high and dry in difficult economic times, by letting big business get away with not paying their bills. ...

Labour Blog

2 weeks ago
Release: Unemployment rising under National

Nicola Willis’ policies continue to slow the economy with more Kiwis out of work as a result. ...

Labour Blog

2 weeks ago
Near four-year high unemployment reveals dire need for new direction

Today, Statistics New Zealand’s latest labour market report revealed that unemployment has reached 4.8 per cent, the highest rate since late 2020, during the COVID pandemic. ...

Greens

2 weeks ago
Release: Shovels in the ground this term unlikely

National looks set to break another election promise, this time by not beginning construction on a second Mt Victoria tunnel this term, Labour transport spokesperson Tangi Utikere said. ...

Labour Blog

2 weeks ago
Not too late to abandon the Bill, Christopher

The Green Party is urgently calling on Prime Minister Christopher Luxon to abandon the Treaty Principles Bill following reports it will be introduced on Thursday. ...

Greens

2 weeks ago
Coalition Govt’s expensive tunnel vision for Wellington comes at the expense of the regions

A second Mount Victoria tunnel, a duplicate Terrace tunnel alongside highway widening will dump more traffic in the centre of Wellington and result in more pollution. ...

Greens

2 weeks ago
Release: Government’s disgrace for Christchurch homeowners

The Government is backtracking on existing commitments to do the right thing by homeowners let down by EQC (now the Natural Hazards Commission). ...

Labour Blog

2 weeks ago
Release: National’s FamilyBoost a colossal flop

Nicola Willis continues to over promise and under deliver, with most families receiving only $30 a week from National’s flagship FamilyBoost flop. ...

Labour Blog

2 weeks ago
Ngarewa-Packer Demands Support for Palestine Ceasefire from New Plymouth Mayor

Te Pāti Māori Co-Leader and MP for Te Tai Hauāuru, Debbie Ngarewa-Packer is calling on the Mayor for New Plymouth, Neil Holdom, to do the right thing. “I am shocked at his decision to disregard the petition presented by Palestine Solidarity Taranaki calling for an immediate and permanent ceasefire”, said ...

Māori Party

2 weeks ago
Release: Trade deal with Gulf states welcomed

Labour welcomes the conclusion of a trade deal with the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) that was restarted under a Labour government after languishing for many years. ...

Labour Blog

2 weeks ago
Release: Labour welcomes OAG fast track inquiry

The Government should consider the outcome of an Auditor-General report into conflicts of interest before progressing the Fast track Approvals Bill through Parliament. ...

Labour Blog

2 weeks ago
Greens reignite call for free dental

A new report detailing the enormous social and economic costs of our dental system has reignited the Greens' call for free dental care. ...

Greens

2 weeks ago
Greens call for bottom trawling ban and call out Minister for lacklustre response

The Green Party is urgently calling on the Government to ban bottom trawling, following news a New Zealand bottom trawler caught 37kg of coral in international waters, prompting the suspension of all fishing in the area until 2026. ...

Greens

3 weeks ago
Mark Patterson: Farmers understand we have their backs

Spring is here which means the start of the A&P show season. Those treasured community days where town meets country. There's no rural-urban divide here, just a chance to meet up with family and old friends and celebrate all things that make rural New Zealand so special. I'm embarking on ...

NZ First Press Release

3 weeks ago
Release: Funding for Gumboot Friday should pause

The National Government should review its support for Gumboot Friday after unacceptable comments by its leader and champion Mike King. ...

Labour Blog

3 weeks ago
Louise Upston cherry-picks data to punch down on the poor

The Government has very conveniently cherry-picked data from the latest MSD projections to justify its cruel agenda and punch-down policy when it comes to people living in poverty. ...

Greens

3 weeks ago

Jurisdiction of Disputes Tribunal to double

Legislation that will double the financial jurisdiction of the Disputes Tribunal from $30,000 to $60,000 has passed first reading in Parliament today, Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith. “We need to improve court timeliness and access to justice so that Kiwis and get on with their lives. Court delays affect everyone, the ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

36 minutes ago
Protecting New Zealand from foreign interference

Legislation that will specifically criminalise foreign interference and strengthen espionage offences has passed first reading in Parliament today, Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith says. “It is normal and appropriate for states to interact and work to influence one another. This encourages cooperation and can have mutually beneficial outcomes. “However, the reality ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

36 minutes ago
Significant milestone for Canterbury Road of National Significance

Transport Minister Simeon Brown has welcomed news that the NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) Board has approved funding towards pre-implementation and early works on the State Highway 1 (SH1) Belfast to Pegasus Motorway and Woodend Bypass Road of National Significance (RoNS). “Reaching this significant milestone is a reflection of our Government’s ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

3 hours ago
Health survey results to help drive change

Health Minister Dr Shane Reti says findings from the annual Health Survey highlight the need to continue driving better health outcomes for New Zealanders. The New Zealand Health Survey is an annual snapshot of key metrics measured from July 2023 – July 2024. Findings released this morning include: In 2023/24, ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 hours ago
Final push needed to get to Smokefree 2025

A renewed effort to get people to quit smoking will build on what has worked to date and target the groups who most need support, Associate Health Minister Casey Costello said today. “The latest New Zealand Health Survey results show the daily smoking rate at 6.9 per cent and we ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 hours ago
New diplomatic appointments

Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters has announced four new diplomatic appointments. “Our diplomats play an important role in ensuring New Zealand’s interests are maintained and enhanced across the world,” Mr Peters says. “It is a pleasure to announce the appointment of these senior diplomats from the Ministry of Foreign ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

9 hours ago
Next steps for Regulatory Standards Bill

Regulation Minister David Seymour has today announced the next steps in the Government’s plan improve the quality of regulation by opening consultation on a proposed Regulatory Standards Bill. “New Zealand's low wages can be blamed on low productivity, and low productivity can be blamed on poor regulation,” says Mr Seymour. ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

10 hours ago
Red Tape Tipline goes live

Minister for Regulation David Seymour has today announced that the Ministry for Regulation’s Red Tape Tipline is now live. “We want to hear about your red tape horror stories. From today, New Zealanders will have a say on how they are regulated through an online portal,” says Mr Seymour. The ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

10 hours ago
Youth Parliament 2025 announced

The Minister for Youth Matt Doocey has today announced the eleventh Youth Parliament will be taking place in 2025. “Youth Parliament offers a unique youth development opportunity to young people from across New Zealand to experience the political process and learn about how government works,” says Mr Doocey. “The two-day ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

1 day ago
Police stats show promising change

After nearly a year in Government, Kiwis have seen significant change across law and order with promising early results shown across some Police statistics, says Police Minister Mark Mitchell. “In August 2023, I told New Zealanders that if they had not started to see a change in public safety within ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

1 day ago
Better coordination of anti-scam efforts

With the launch of Fraud Awareness Week, the Government is committing to new coordination efforts across industry and government to combat online scams, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly says. “Online financial scams are a growing problem for New Zealand. New data released today shows that Kiwis lost nearly ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

1 day ago
Minister to consider 7AA select committee report

Minister for Children Karen Chhour will consider the recommendations made by the Social Services and Community Committee in its report back to Parliament on the Oranga Tamariki (Repeal of Section 7AA) Amendment Bill. “I want to thank the people who made submissions and those who appeared before the committee in ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

1 day ago
Defence Minister to attend ASEAN meeting

Defence Minister Judith Collins will this week attend the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN) Defence Ministers’ Meeting-Plus in Vientiane, Laos. “We need to take every opportunity to engage with our international partners, given the increasingly unstable geo-political situation,” Ms Collins says. “New Zealand has a long-standing commitment to this ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

1 day ago
Launching the White Ribbon Ride

The Minister for the Prevention of Family and Sexual Violence, Karen Chhour, was on hand to wish riders well at the start of the North Island leg of the White Ribbon Ride in Whakatāne this morning. The ride helps mark the International Day for the Elimination of Violence against Women, ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

2 days ago
Construction to begin on next stage of Papakura to Drury

Construction on the next stage of the SH1 Papakura to Drury project will begin early next month, with the contract for works awarded to Fulton Hogan, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. "SH1 Papakura to Drury is a key project that will drive economic growth and productivity, reduce congestion, and enable people ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

3 days ago
NZ signs trade deal with Costa Rica, Iceland and Switzerland

Trade and Agriculture Minister Todd McClay has signed a pioneering trade agreement that prioritises New Zealand’s sustainable exports at a ceremony during APEC in Peru today. “The Agreement on Trade and Sustainability (ACCTS), between Costa Rica, Iceland, and Switzerland was concluded in July of this year and opens up significant ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

3 days ago
Government and iwi work together on aquaculture

Five new Aquaculture Settlement Areas will help ensure Ngāi Tahu shares in the opportunities aquaculture offers for Southland’s economy, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones says. “The Aquaculture Settlement Areas (ASAs) I’m announcing today set aside space so the Crown and Ngāi Tahu can assess their potential for aquaculture development. ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
Government launches review to ensure electricity market is fit-for-purpose

The terms of reference for a review of the performance of the electricity market have been released. The review, initiated by the Coalition Government during the power crisis in winter will look at whether current regulations and market design support economic growth and access to reliable and affordable electricity, Energy Minister ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
Speech to Social Investment Hui: Jack and his whānau need our help

Kia ora koutou katoa. Nau mai, haere mai, piki mai. Ki te mihi atu ahau, ki te manwhenua nei, Te Atiawa, Ngāti toa rangatira, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou katoa. Thank you, Andy, for your introduction. Let me acknowledge you as the new Chief Executive of the Social Investment ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
Minister of State for Trade heads to Brisbane for PACER Plus meeting

Minister of State for Trade Nicola Grigg has travelled to Australia to attend the PACER Plus Ministers Meeting in Brisbane. “Trade plays a critical role in driving employment, economic growth, and improving the standards of living in the Pacific Region. The Government is strongly committed to supporting Pacific Island countries ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
Proposals to modernise conservation released

Toitū te taiao – Our environment endures The Government is consulting on proposals to modernise New Zealand’s conservation management system, aiming to protect relevant natural areas while supporting sustainable growth in tourism and regional economies, Conservation Minister Tama Potaka says. “Today, the Department of Conservation – Te Papa Atawhai is ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
Treaty Principles Bill passes first reading

Associate Justice Minister David Seymour says all New Zealanders will now be able to have their say on the Treaty Principles Bill after it passed its first reading and was sent to the Justice Committee to be considered. “I look forward to seeing what Kiwis have to say on the ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 days ago
Antarctic cooperation at centre of Scott Base visit

Finance Minister and Associate Climate Change Minister Nicola Willis will travel to Antarctica next week to engage with international partners and scientists and to assess latest steps in the redevelopment of Scott Base. “New Zealand has important interests in Antarctica and our longstanding presence at Scott Base is a key ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 days ago
Contactless payments launching on public transport in Auckland

The Government and Auckland Council are delivering contactless payments on Auckland’s public transport network later this month which will enable commuters to tag on and off public buses, trains, and ferries travelling across the region, Transport Minister Simeon Brown and Auckland Mayor Wayne Brown says.The NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) and ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 days ago
RIF funding supports aquaculture development

The Coalition Government is backing the development of an aquaculture centre of excellence in Southland with an investment of $2.2 million, Regional Development Minister Shane Jones says. South Island Industrial Fund Ltd will use the Regional Infrastructure Fund (RIF) loan towards its $6.3m project to upgrade infrastructure at the Ocean ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 days ago
Safeguarding Kiwis with modern insurance law

Modernised insurance law will provide Kiwis with confidence that they will be treated fairly by insurance providers, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly says. “A secure insurance market is integral to New Zealand’s economic success. It enables consumers and businesses to access finance and gives them the assurance to ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 days ago
When the going gets tough ‘Get Through’ with Farmstrong

An online hub with mental wellbeing tools and resources designed to help farmers and growers deal with the stress of adverse weather events has been officially launched by Minister for Mental Health, Matt Doocey. “Adverse weather events are an increasingly common reality for our farmers and growers. It’s vital that ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 days ago
Government exploring new energy source

Up to $60 million will be ring-fenced from the Regional Infrastructure Fund to invest in exploring the potential of supercritical geothermal technology which could help secure New Zealand’s future energy needs, Regional Development Minister Shane Jones and Science, Innovation, and Technology Minister Judith Collins say. Having a secure and resilient energy supply ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 days ago
Pay Gap Calculator toolkit launched

New Zealand businesses can now take meaningful action to drive down the gender pay gap with the launch of an online calculator today, Minister for Women Nicola Grigg says. “Women are paid, on average, 8.2 per cent less than men and this gap has barely moved since 2017 - which ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

6 days ago
Government launches refreshed Public Private Partnership framework

The Government has released a refreshed Public Private Partnership (PPP) framework that provides a blueprint to the market outlining how the government will approach future PPP transactions, Infrastructure Minister Chris Bishop and Parliamentary Under-Secretary Simon Court say. “Refreshing New Zealand’s PPP model is an important part of our plan to ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

6 days ago
Further decisions taken on regulating online casino gambling

Internal Affairs Minister Brooke van Velden says the Government has agreed to further details of a new system to regulate online casino gambling. “A new Online Gambling Bill will be drafted with the purpose to regulate online casino gambling to facilitate a safer and compliant regulated online gambling market. More importantly, ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

6 days ago
Tailored support for people in emergency housing

Ka mate kāinga tahi, ka ora kāinga rua. An innovative Government trial will tailor support to people with a diverse range of complex needs to move out of emergency housing and into more permanent housing, Associate Housing Minister Tama Potaka says. “The Government has set a target of reducing the ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

6 days ago
Getting ready for bird flu

Biosecurity Minister Andrew Hoggard is encouraging New Zealanders to take steps to be ready for the possible arrival of bird flu.“While high pathogenicity avian influenza (HPAI) is still some distance from New Zealand and we’ve never had a case here, it’s important that we take a cautious approach. “If you’re one ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

6 days ago
Harbour closure supports mussel reseeding

A two-year ban on the take of kuku/mussels from Ōhiwa Harbour in eastern Bay of Plenty will support local efforts to restore mussel beds in the area, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones says. Te Rūnanga o Ngāti Awa requested the closure, Te rāhui kuku ki tua o Kanawa, to ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

6 days ago
Government awards primary sector scholarships to tertiary students

The coalition Government has awarded scholarships to six tertiary students as part of efforts to boost on-the-ground support for farmers and growers Agriculture Minister Todd McClay and Associate Agriculture Minister Andrew Hoggard announced today. “We are reducing the regulatory burden on farmers and growers and providing support to adapt and innovate, ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

6 days ago
Tax work programme focused on rebuilding the economy

Rebuilding the economy and improving fiscal sustainability is the key focus of the Government’s new Tax and Social Policy Work Programme for Inland Revenue, Revenue Minister Simon Watts says. “New Zealand has been grappling with significant economic challenges over the last few years with many businesses and households feeling the ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

6 days ago
Omnibus Bill First Reading for Royal Commission of Inquiry National Apology

Mr Speaker, as the Minister for Children, it is my priority to ensure that children and young people in the care system are safe. The thousands of survivors who shared their experiences with the Royal Commission have been clear that the system must improve its protections against abuse and neglect. ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

1 week ago
Clarifying the protection of disabled people in care

The Government is amending the Crimes Act to ensure the protection of disabled people in care is made more explicit, Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith says. “As part of the Government’s response to the recommendations of the Abuse in Care Royal Commission, the word ‘disability’ is being added to the definition ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

1 week ago
Oranga Tamariki Act changes a step in the right direction

Changes to the Oranga Tamariki Act 1989 included in an Omnibus Bill are long overdue and a positive step in the right direction, Minister for Children Karen Chhour says. As part of the National Apology today, the Responding to Abuse in Care Legislation Amendment Bill had its first reading. “I am ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

1 week ago
Improvements to Government record-keeping in response to the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse ...

Minister of Internal Affairs Brooke van Velden says the Government is making changes to the Public Records Act, to improve the record-keeping practices of government agencies. “These changes will allow the Chief Archivist to audit an agency more frequently where required and will also allow the Chief Archivist to work ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

1 week ago

The government wants to keep cash alive for buying essentials. Here’s why it’s such a challenge ...

Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Steve Worthington, Adjunct Professor, Swinburne University of Technology Cre8tive Images/Shutterstock Cash usage has fallen off a cliff in Australia, but the federal government says it must have a future. So, it’s going to mandate one. The Australian government will require ...

Evening ReportBy The Conversation

60 minutes ago
Time for soldiers to do civilian work extended until mid-February

The government has notified Parliament it is extending the time soldiers will be filling in for their striking non-uniformed colleagues until Valentines Day. ...

Radio NZ – political

1 hour ago
Live: 42,000 join as Treaty Principles Bill hīkoi reaches Parliament

By mid-afternoon today 42,000 people gathered at the Parliamentary precinct and the surrounding streets, police say. ...

Radio NZ – political

1 hour ago
Hīkoi day 9: 35,000 join as Treaty Principles Bill protest reaches Parliament

RNZ News More than 35,000 people today gathered as Aotearoa New Zealand’s Hīkoi mō te Tiriti overflowed from Parliament’s grounds and onto nearby streets in the capital Wellington Pōneke. Eru Kapa-Kingi told the crowd “Māori nation has been born” today and that “Te Tiriti is forever”. ACT leader David Seymour ...

Evening ReportBy Asia Pacific Report

1 hour ago
Hīkoi not representative of New Zealand, David Seymour says

Seymour came out of the Beehive today to acknowledge the hīkoi and wave at the protesters - but retreated inside after just a few minutes. ...

Radio NZ – political

1 hour ago
Alan Jones once seemed unassailable. What ended it was a peculiarly Sydney story of media, politics ...

Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Denis Muller, Senior Research Fellow, Centre for Advancing Journalism, The University of Melbourne For decades it seemed Alan Jones was unassailable. A finding against him of professional misconduct by the Australian Broadcasting Authority (2000); a finding that he incited hatred, serious contempt ...

Evening ReportBy The Conversation

1 hour ago
Daily smoking rates flat-line, youth vaping keeps rising – NZ Health Survey

Daily smoking rates have flat-lined after dramatic falls in previous years, while vaping among younger people continues to rise. ...

Radio NZ – political

2 hours ago
Watch: Traffic-stopping haka breaks out during hīkoi to Parliament

Vehicles were barred from entering the intersection as a group of men performed the haka to a crowd of hundreds of onlookers. ...

Radio NZ – political

3 hours ago
Hīkoi to Parliament: The families taking part and why

The hīkoi is a family affair, with tamariki everywhere; pepe sleeping in carts and buggies or tugging their cousins' hair. ...

Radio NZ – political

3 hours ago
The best signs from the final day of the Toitū Te Tiriti hīkoi

How many ways can you say you’re pissed off? A good protest sign signifies all the things you want to say at a demonstration: I’m here, I care and I’ve found the most fed up/witty/creative way to express this. And after a week of nationwide protests for the Toitū Te ...

The SpinoffBy Lyric Waiwiri-Smith

3 hours ago
Pike River: 14 Years On And Far Too Many Of Us Are Being Injured At Work

"The Minister’s actions on health and safety show the Minister has failed to understand the lessons of Pike River. Instead of boosting health and safety at work, her party and her Government are looking for ways to water down the protections it has delivered." ...

Scoop politics

3 hours ago
Live: 35,000 join as Treaty Principles Bill hīkoi reaches Parliament

Hīkoi mō te Tiriti is heading for Waitangi Park and heavy traffic through the CBD is expected ahead of the evening commute. ...

Radio NZ – political

3 hours ago
Dunedin Hospital protesters rally to support campaign

About 1000 people turned up to hear why building the hospital as planned, was important. ...

Radio NZ – political

3 hours ago
Watch: ‘Kill the bill, kill the bill’ – David Seymour walks out, waves to proteste...

The ACT leader was met with chants of "Kill the bill, kill the bill" when he walked out of the Beehive, before waving to the crowd and returning inside. ...

Radio NZ – political

4 hours ago
Livestream: 35,000 join as Treaty Principles Bill hīkoi reaches Parliament

The Treaty Principles Bill's architect made a brief appearance, and was met with chanting, as 35,000 people protesting overflowed from Parliament's lawn. ...

Radio NZ – political

5 hours ago
Public humiliation is still a common teaching tool in medical education. Here’s how it leaves pati...

Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Carolyn Heward, Lecturer, Clinical Psychology, James Cook University Monkey Business Images/Shutterstock Imagine being questioned about complex technical knowledge in front of your peers, supervisors, and members of the public – knowing that a wrong answer could lead to public ridicule. ...

Evening ReportBy The Conversation

6 hours ago
Hīkoi mō Te Tiriti: The final day march to Parliament in photos

It was an early start for thousands as the hīkoi sets off for its final destination - the grounds of Parliament. ...

Radio NZ – political

6 hours ago
It’s clear footy has an Indigenous participation problem, and the AFL draft is only part of the so...

Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Chelsey Taylor, PhD Candidate, Swinburne University of Technology From revolutionary Geelong ruckman Graham “Polly” Farmer, to the electrifying Krakouer brothers (Phil and Jim) at North Melbourne, through to modern stars such as Charlie Cameron, Adam Goodes, Lance Franklin and Eddie Betts, Indigenous ...

Evening ReportBy The Conversation

6 hours ago
What our politicians’ signatures tell us about their personalities

We asked a handwriting expert to analyse the scrawls of our elected officials. Here’s what they said. Recently I received a press release from the trio of ministers – Simeon Brown, Shane Jones and Chris Bishop – tasked with overseeing the government’s controversial fast-track consenting bill. The press release itself ...

The SpinoffBy Stewart Sowman-Lund

7 hours ago
Livestream: 19,000 join as Treaty Principles Bill hīkoi reaches Parliament

'The energy, the power-it's palpable here on the ground,' an MP says as a sea of red, black and white flags sorrounds the Beehive. ...

Radio NZ – political

7 hours ago
Education minister says kids should be in school instead of at hīkoi

But the son of a haka expert, travelling down with students from Huntly, says "this is all part of our learning, this is their school". ...

Radio NZ – political

7 hours ago
Basic rules for screen time at a young age can help reduce childhood obesity – new research

Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Ladan Hashemi, Senior Research Fellow in Health Sciences, University of Auckland, Waipapa Taumata Rau Childhood obesity is a growing concern worldwide. But in New Zealand it’s a particularly pressing issue. With one of the highest rates in the OECD, about one ...

Evening ReportBy The Conversation

7 hours ago
Livestream: Treaty Principles Bill hīkoi mō te Tiriti at Parliament

Thousands have marched through the streets of a capital and to the Beehive. ...

Radio NZ – political

7 hours ago
Kanaky Aotearoa Solidarity Says “Toitū Te Tiriti!”

Kanaky Aotearoa Solidarity supports te hikoi and says Toitū te Tiriti! Māori never ceded sovereignty! ...

Scoop politics

7 hours ago
Video: Te Pāti Māori MP Hana-Rawhiti Maipi-Clarke reacts to haka heard around the world

In the face of criticism, Hana-Rawhiti Maipi-Clarke says there was definitely a moment of 'what just happened?', after the House was suspended during voting. ...

Radio NZ – political

8 hours ago
Livestream: Treaty Principles Bill hīkoi at Parliament

'The energy, the power-it's palpable here on the ground,' an MP says as a sea of red, black and white flags makes its way to the Beehive and crowds line the streets. ...

Radio NZ – political

8 hours ago
Review: Camping is the hyper horny, extremely silly play we need right now

Almost a decade ago, Camping dazzled with four relative unknowns in a tiny venue. Now it returns, with an all-star cast on a bigger stage. Does it still deliver? The original run of Camping, on stage at The Basement, is the funniest and most kinetically bizarre show I’ve seen in ...

The SpinoffBy Duncan Greive

8 hours ago
‘We don’t even have a CT scan here’: Dunedin Hospital protesters rally

About 1000 people turned up to hear why building the hospital as planned, was important. ...

Radio NZ – political

8 hours ago
Biggest Ever Community Petition, With Over 200,000 Signatures, Opposes Treaty Principles Bill

The country has spoken. This Bill is a bad faith attempt to revoke the Government’s commitments to Te Tiriti o Waitangi, and it’s visible to not just Aotearoa, but the world. ...

Scoop politics

8 hours ago
Justice Committee Calls For Submissions On The Principles Of The Treaty Of Waitangi Bill

The committee is intending to complete hearings by the end of February 2025. Further decisions about hearings will be made and communicated in due course. ...

Scoop politics

9 hours ago
To build support, it might be time for the Greens to hang up their movement-style approach to politi...

Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Narelle Miragliotta, Associate Professor in Politics, Murdoch University State and territory elections held in 2024 have not delivered the electoral and legislative gains the Greens would have hoped for or expected. Of the elections conducted this year, the Greens’ performance was, ...

Evening ReportBy The Conversation

9 hours ago
Australia’s new anti-vaping program in schools is a good step – but education is only part of th...

Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Jonine Jancey, Academic and Director Collaboration for Evidence, Research and Impact in Public Health, Curtin University Drazen Zigic/Shutterstock Last week, the federal government announced a plan to roll out an anti-vaping program in schools across the country. The education program, ...

Evening ReportBy The Conversation

9 hours ago
We pay less for houses in one-in-100 year flood zones – but overlook risks of more devastating flo...

Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Song Shi, Associate Professor, Property Economics, University of Technology Sydney If you’re buying a house near a river or on a floodplain, you will likely come up against the question of flood risk. We usually talk about this in terms of chance. ...

Evening ReportBy The Conversation

9 hours ago
What was the deal with Julius Caesar and Cleopatra’s ‘situationship’?

Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Charlotte Dunn, Lecturer in Classics, University of Tasmania Carl Gottlieb Venig/Wikimedia The Egyptian queen Cleopatra is often associated with glamorous beauty routines, deadly snake bites, lavish banquets and torrid affairs with some of the most notorious men in Roman history. ...

Evening ReportBy The Conversation

9 hours ago
The cost of being: An ‘anti-capitalist’ barista and tutor renting in Wellington

As part of our series exploring how New Zealanders live and our relationship with money, a 23-year-old explains why she’s been working since she was 11. Want to be part of The Cost of Being? Fill out the questionnaire here. Gender: Female. Age: 23. Ethnicity: Cambodian Chinese. Role: Barista, tutor, campaigner, ...

The SpinoffBy The Cost of Being

10 hours ago
Regulations Ministry: Online tool can be used to share ‘red tape horror stories’

The Regulations minister wants to hear "from tradies, farmers, teachers, chefs, engineers - every person doing productive work". ...

Radio NZ – political

10 hours ago
Elon Musk’s new job will bring tech ‘disruption’ to the US government – and history says it ...

Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Hallam Stevens, Professor of Interdisciplinary Studies, James Cook University On November 12, United States president-elect Donald Trump announced he would appoint Elon Musk, the world’s richest man, to lead a newly constituted Department of Government Efficiency alongside fellow tech billionaire and former ...

Evening ReportBy The Conversation

10 hours ago
AI for life: how sovereign Wiradyuri ways of knowing can transform technology for good

Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Jessica Russ-Smith, Associate Professor, Social Work and Assistant Deputy Head of School, School of Allied Health, Australian Catholic University Philip Schubert/Shutterstock From climate change to geopolitical instability to health emergencies, we are entering a period of momentous change. The technology industry ...

Evening ReportBy The Conversation

10 hours ago
Live updates: Toitū Te Tiriti hīkoi marches to parliament

Tens of thousands are expected to gather in Te Upoko-o-te-ika-a-Māui today, as the nationwide Toitū Te Tiriti hīkoi prepares to arrive at parliament. Follow this blog for up-to-date coverage and reaction. Load more ...

The SpinoffBy Liam Rātana

10 hours ago
NZ media’s second wave of doom

MediaRoom: North & South magazine ‘suspending’ print publication is the latest in a wave of closures in our media, suffering from extended economic malaise and lower advertising The post NZ media’s second wave of doom appeared first on Newsroom. ...

NewsroomBy Tim Murphy

11 hours ago

The server will be getting hardware changes this evening starting at 10pm NZDT.
The site will be off line for some hours.

Key still wishes we had invaded Iraq

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