Labour would legalise medical cannabis
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- Date published:
5:26 pm, May 18th, 2016 - 99 comments
Categories: Andrew Little, health, labour, leadership, quality of life -
Tags: cannabis, medicinal cannabis
Excellent news:
We would legalise medicinal cannabis – Labour leader
Labour will legislate for medicinal cannabis “pretty quickly” after taking office, leader Andrew Little has confirmed.
Little said cannabis products should be available to anyone suffering chronic pain or a terminal condition if their GP signed off on it.
A sensible position.
In a wide ranging Facebook Live interview with Stuff on Wednesday, Little said Labour would pass O’Connor’s law “pretty quickly” after the next election, should it win.But on the wider issue of decriminalising cannabis, he wanted to see more evidence.
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A good start by little, decriminalise pot, thus free up police resources to go after real crims (white collar; meth dealers etc.)
have a listen to what he said in the video. He’s clear about the issues with recreational use, makes it clear it’s not a moral issue, that alcohol is just as big a problem and that if cannabis were to be legalised he would want to get the legislation around it better than what we did for booze. He specifically names teens as being at risk from smoking too early.
The great thing is that he’s not saying no. He’s saying he wants more evidence. That’s a change for Labour. I could see a second term L/GP govt investigating decriminalising for personal use.
he did quite well but the statement ” that alcohol is just as big a problem” is a big cop out.
How so?
do you really believe that cannabis causes as much societal or physical harm as alcohol?
If abused like alcohol, yes.
It is not unknown for uni students and others to binge drink an entire litre of spirits, bourbon or vodka for instance, in an evening.
How would you abuse cannabis to that degree?
The courts see cases every day where recidivist drink drivers have been caught, 2x 3x 4x 5x over the legal alcohol limit.
How would you abuse cannabis to that degree?
For sure, cannabis use engenders a lot of harms. But its at a small fraction of the harm caused by alcohol.
It’s possible to be so stoned that you can’t see. I’ve known people to have psychosis like effects from smoking cannabis. The idea that you can’t damage yourself or others by smokng is dangerous.
Once legalised, cannabis will be much more readily available. Overseas experience suggests that use tends to not increase as much as one would think, but NZ is a very substance abuse culture. I’d also see the potential problems as often being more chronic and long term than with alcohol. So instead of looking at traffic accidents, look at reduction in cognitive ability over a decade.
If we’re looking at harm minimisation, I’d say that legalising cannabis is likely to reduce harm from alcohol (more people will choose dak over booze, and things like violence will reduce as a consequence). I know plenty of people that self-medicate with cannabis to make their lives manageable (not just physical pain, but mental and emotional). I think that’s a good thing. But I think the alcohol harm vs cannabis harm thing is a red herring. We need to be looking at the harm that cannabis use can bring, and how to best design our laws and systems to accommodate that. I don’t see a huge amount of debate along those lines.
I never said that cannabis wasn’t capable of severe harm, I said that the level of harm was a small fraction of that of alcohol.
That’s on a societal basis. For an individual either can be devastating in the wrong circumstances.
And I had already figured in some increased use from decriminalisation.
As for not using cannabis vs alcohol comparison, no problem, there are now many states in the USA where the research is being done as to what the harms of wider use are.
[citation needed]
Think you’ve got confused with alcohol and being “blind drunk”.
I periodically attend the 420 protest at Otago Uni. The Proctor told a group of us that if he could have half the student population on the ‘ waccy baccy’ his phone would stop ringing from fucked off Locals sick of the vomit, piss, abuse, chaos, rubbish, and general raucous behaviour that he has to deal with daily because the students are on the piss.
Not going to help the proctor much if its an R21 product…
I think they have different issues and I don’t compare them like that. I do think the potential to cause damage by legalising cannabis is real and we need to take care in how we do it.
Most problems with alcohol and other drugs come from societal issues. Alcohol shows us that legalisation isn’t the panacea some people think.
I think with cannabis, the need for medical is urgent – speaking for myself here. The opioid’s are bloody evil.
And I agree we need robust laws around, recreational use. In particular mixing of cannabis with alcohol and other drugs.
Plus the obvious problems with imbalance in cannabis between the active constituent, THC and the other many cannabinoids.
Also robust laws need to be in place for giving these drugs, both alcohol and cannabis to minors.
Little pointed to the issue of high THC content. I think that’s a consequence of prohibition, but it’s hard to see people selectively breeding the content lower. Maybe. If we have a sane culture around drug use people would value the low mellow stone.
Pretty annoyed with the lack of support for MC for chronic neuropathic pain in the Medical fraternity
Bloody annoying is my experience, and my partners. It’s like they can’t cure it, so they give up.
Yes the harms caused by cannabis are real but it is at a small fraction of the harm caused by alcohol, at least in terms of demands on the health system.
Smaller sure, but I wouldn’t say small fraction. Once cannabis is legalised expect there to be more problems and for the problems to be more visible.
eg once teens have easier access to cannabis at will I think we will see progress made on the issue of whether cannabis use induces schizophrenia in suscetible youth. I don’t think that should stop us from legalising, but the idea that cannabis is minimally harmful makes me nervous. A big part of that is the fact that we are such a substance abuse society. I’d see the cultural issues around getting out of it as one of the bigger hurdles.
Yes, there are many problems that can result from exposing a developing brain to neurotoxic or neuroactive substances.
As people see less and less hope for them in the Formal Economy I think that they will turn to escapism of various kinds, including substance abuse.
Which is another good reason to legalise now. Better cannabis than ‘legal highs’ and alcohol.
what “more evidence” does he need
the “war on drugs” has corrupted the nz police and perverted the courts.
the cost is too high now!
stop the madness now!
decriminalise and release those convicted of marijuana crimes now.
only then can we start to rebuild public confidence in police and courts.
Really ? This is only for medicinal cannabis, and I hope it doesnt cover the smoking kind, but pharmaceutic types only.
The drug dealers can stay in jail
you’re falling further and further out of touch, mate.
The strict approach to amounts of a few grams can’t be maintained with medical legality.
“The dog indicates there has been cannibis in the vehicle.”
“Yeah, grandad was down last week, probably some of his eh.”
Better that police resources are devoted to P and to tax evasion.
The evidence is clear. No one should be in jail for this. Portugal has decrim all drugs with great results.
The war on drugs has backfired on all its supposed objectives. It was never about safety anyway. Both Anslinger and Nixons goals were political. The world just followed them down the garden path.
But I get it, one thing at a time. Its just too soon for the Labour front bench to pull out their Bob Marley smoking a doob t-shirts.
Well good, its about time. Peter Dunne, despite his recent attempts to suddenly pretend that he is a misunderstood progressive on this issue, has been actively blocking this for a long time while people suffer needlessly. It would be good however to see what their policy will do to combat the ridiculous price gouging that the makers of the official product engage in. This stuff costs little to grow and a whole plant extract is easy to make and is more effective than the pharma companies isolation of specific compounds approach.
I mean, we should never be reliant on sourcing such absurdly priced products from overseas when NZ is a weed growing paradise ffs.
The easiest thing to do would be to decriminalise for medical use across the board. You get a note from your GP, you can grow your own. And then for the police to turn a blind eye.
That sounds really bloody stupid actually. A half-way point between the status quo and decriminalisation.
It’s a move in the right direction. We could have that as soon as Labour get into govt, vs having expensive prescription only medical cannabis and waiting years for legalisation of recreational use.
Or Labour, with pressure from the populace, could do the job properly in the first place. Or they could just do that anyway.
They’ve nothing to be scared about as there’s no real opposition to full legalisation.
Holding small quantities of cannabis for personal use should be decriminalised on an R21 basis.
F*ckin’ oath!
What’s R21?
21 years of age and over
How would that be enforced?
how would I know? But there are many examples throughout society.
What examples?
Alcohol, driving, sex, sex shops, games, medication etc…
Alcohol proves my point. It’s pretty easy for teens to get hold of alcohol.
weka, if you think rules and regulations can’t be enforced then why bother with them.
BTW we had idiot politicians lower the drinking age from 20 to 18, and look how well that has turned out for society.
“weka, if you think rules and regulations can’t be enforced then why bother with them.”
I don’t think that.
Seriously weka, if you want to be spoonfed, fine, but I think you can figure this out.
I see Gangnam has a list. Add to that: movies, firearms, NZ super, TAB, casinos,…
I don’t want to be spoonfed. I want people to explain what they mean so I can understand and not waste my time second guessing and mindreading. It’s not that hard. I thought by examples you were meaning other countries had found ways to enforce. Because obviously alcohol enforcement in NZ doesn’t work. Neither does movies in the download age. The other things have pretty easy mechanisms for control, cannabis doesn’t. I’d have thought you could figure this out.
You’ve taken a politica position (R21), I’d like to know your reasoning, but also how that would work. That’s a reasonable thing to want on a political blog. If you want to post opinions without them being explored that’s up to you, just don’t expect to not be asked questions.
hey weka, you’ve basically declared all age enforcement in NZ a waste of time.
This is equivalent to the neolib argument that regulation doesn’t work, so let’s not even bother with it.
But sorry I don’t come from that school of thought.
“you’ve basically declared all age enforcement in NZ a waste of time.”
No, I havne’t. You’ve failed to understand the subtleties of my argument. Please stop making up shit about what I think. If you don’t understand, ask.
Hey weka, everyone can read your comments about how age enforcement in other areas of NZ society are a failure.
So I think its pretty self evident what you meant.
But guess what. If US states can figure out age enforcement for cannabis, maybe we can too, despite the doubters like yourself.
Wish you would say what you really want to have happen though with cannabis. Just come out with it, instead of tap dancing.
CV, just because some states in the US have age limits on cannabis, it doesn’t mean that underage kids in those states are not smoking cannabis.
I accept that. So what to do about cannabis then? Keep the status quo on the basis that the status quo harms young people less?
Adopt the most-good/least-harm alternative, yes.
But it’s not as binary as you suggest. Why R21? That’s still in the area of low impulse control, hazardous behaviours, and also before diagnosis or onset of a number of mental illnesses such as schizophrenia or foetal alcohol syndrome in a lot of people – would those be exacerbated by cannabis use? Sure, it’s less harmful than 14, but why not 25 or 30? What about the wider context of criminal organisations or other illegal drugs? What about alcohol or tobacco, should they all be under a single inregime? What about the social implic
Medicinal use for specific, limited conditions clearly provides benefits while limiting the harm of increased availability, and also minimises any addition to the bureaucratic inconsistency that buggers our recreational drug legislation. Assess the outcomes of that before committing to further reforms in a particular direction.
Hey weka, everyone can read your comments about how age enforcement in other areas of NZ society are a failure.
So I think its pretty self evident what you meant.
You’re wrong. I’ve asked how an age of 21 would be enforced. I’ve made the argument that cannabis will be more accessible to teens than alcohol. That age restrictions don’t stop alcohol use by teens. I’ve also make a pretty clear argument that prohibition does have an affect on access, so obviously I’m not saying that enforcement of alcohol limits don’t work at all. I’m saying they work in some ways and fail in others. You can interpret all that as me saing that drinking age enforcement is a failure, but that’s just you making shit up. It’s not what I think, I’ve already told you that, here you ar repeating it, that makes you pretty close to being a troll.
Wish you would say what you really want to have happen though with cannabis. Just come out with it, instead of tap dancing.
I’ve already said. Decriminalise, and adopt multiple strategies to address the substance abuse culture in NZ (at all levels), as well as the reasons why people are needing to self medicate so much. I have no problem with recreational use, or self-medicating, and I support harm minimisation. In other convos I’ve said that cannabis growing and supply should remain in the hands of users irrespective of whatever else happens with regulation.
I don’t know what the age should be, which is why I was interested to hear from the peopel suggesting specific ages how they would see enforcement working.
Spot on McFlock. The more detailed level of the conversation that needs to happen.
Nice one Labour!!
The only sensible position is full legalisation. Sure, make it so that people under the age of 21 can’t smoke it legally. If the politicians were concerned about the damage that it did to the young they’d also be doing the same for alcohol.
absolutely it should be treated exactly the same as alcohol , if that means too lax then the alcohol needs to be tightened up.
As for the Police carrying forward a “war” (and it is a war with all the injustice and colateral damage of a war) , thats madness, the inevitable result is the destruction of law and order which is exactly what has happened.
The cost of prohibition is the destruction of law and order…. Thats too much
regulation and taxation of supply and sale?
Yes.
Actually, if new studies coming out of the states are true. We may be looking at 25 as the age where it does least harm. That is for both Cannabis and Alcohol.
Worst thing ever done by an out going government to try and get votes, was dropping the drinking age.
Yes, I know going to war, driving, getting married and voting all 18. But I’d rather we went for minimum harm.
++++ Good on Andrew Little for saying this on medical cannabis +++ I live for the day I don’t have to take opioids.
It’s hard to see how an age limit would be enforced, unless growing and sharing is still illegal. If cannabis can be grown at home and shared, then young adults will have access. We can’t stop teens drinking and that’s with tight control of supply.
One could hope that a govt that legalised all use would also put major effort into education, harm minimisation, treatment, and addressing the reasons that people self-medicate, but it’s quite a big hope.
That comes down to the adults at home actually being responsible and not giving it to the kids.
Yes. And even with that it still comes down the responsibility of the adults in the place.
When I was smoking as a teen the adults at home had nothing to do with it. They didn’t know I was smoking. My cannabis came from my peers, not adults. Further up the chain, it was adults, but I can’t see how regulation will change that.
I wonder if the big difference that people here are failing to appreciate is that cannabis is pretty easy to grow. Brewing alcohol isn’t. If every adult refused to give teens access, teens are quite capable of growing their own.
Yes they did. Best I heard it said was many years ago and it went something like this:
You know those adults that we’re hiding things from? Yeah, they know everything that we’re doing and they’re laughing at us.
Interestingly enough it will change it by making it easily available and thus removing the criminal element that supplies kids.
Having done both I can assure you that brewing beer is easier than growing marijuana.
My parents didn’t know I was smoking until I told them (I asked). They could tell when I was drinking, not when I was smoking.
“Interestingly enough it will change it by making it easily available and thus removing the criminal element that supplies kids.”
Ok, so no adult who has legal access to cannabis is ever going to give/sell some to anyone under 21, nor leave it in a place where it can be taken. Right.
“Having done both I can assure you that brewing beer is easier than growing marijuana.”
Have you brewed beer in secret?
“cannabis is pretty easy to grow. Brewing alcohol isn’t. ”
its not that hard to brew alcohol – in fact it would be easier than trying to grow weed on the quiet as a teen. To grow plants you need outside space or a grow room – to brew beer you need a plastic tub and a cupboard. Growing cannabis inside smells rather strongly as well – beer? not so much
which do you pick as the easiest to keep secret?
———————————————–
the bit your missing from your argument is the fact that the illegal status of cannabis does nothing to stop kids buying or accessing it right now, today. And it ensures that access happens in the dark away from prying eyes and in contact with people who may be less than desirable
When i was a teen it was easier to get dope than booze – (dont know how different that is these days )
The premise that prohibition doesnt stop, but in fact facilitates, access by the young is valid and needs to be factored in. The age limit is utterly unenforceable if its all happening on a black market
You get that I’m not arguing prohibition right?
I hear people saying that teens have easy access to cannabis, but this misses the fact that some kids do and some kids don’t. It’s not as black and white as your argument makes out. As bad as prohibition is, it does still limit access.
(when I was a teen, both alcohol and cannabis were accessible, largely because I had older siblings).
“The age limit is utterly unenforceable if its all happening on a black market”
I’m still waiting for someone to explain how it’s enforceable when legal. I’m not sure I agree about the easy of alcohol. Not that many people homebrew because it takes more than just a barrel and cupboard (you need to bottle and store and the bulk if that alone will make it hard for teens). If cannabis were legal I reckon lots of people would grow it. We’re a nation of gardeners.
“I’m still waiting for someone to explain how it’s enforceable when legal.”
you should go to the Netherlands and see & compare their teenage/youth usage rates with ours, the results are plain to see
I have personally been mocked by dutch school children while sitting outside and smoking a spliff @ a coffee shop
“dumb stoned tourists” as my girlfriend @ the time translated for me
sounds much better than our current methods to me…
I’ve heard those stories too, and think it is a good sign. I’d still like to see some good research to back up the anecdotes. And I’d point out NZ is a very different culture than the Netherlands. We already have a population that abuses substances pretty routinely and to excess. That’s the stuff that needs to change. My concern is that we will decriminalise and not do the cultural change work, and that people will suffer (and society too).
“You get that I’m not arguing prohibition right?”
what are you arguing then? – (because a lot of what your saying sounds anti legailisation). Not trying to get all up in your face or anything – i actualy arent sure where your coming from on this
the big point is that… prohibition doesnt work – full stop
all you do is cede control to those operating outside the law and removed from any kind of ability to address any negatives (both in data and resources).
Plus you end up throwing $ down the toilet, while getting nothing back from the trade that is causing a potential issue.
Cannabis is available now to anyone who has the cash (its 100% unenforceable re: sale) – under legalisation it has at least some controls and some tax revenue. (it has some measure of enforceability)
sure people will grow it and share it – but so what? – that happens now as well
———————————-
“but this misses the fact that some kids do and some kids don’t.”
explain how that changes if legal
what are you arguing then? – (because a lot of what your saying sounds anti legailisation). Not trying to get all up in your face or anything – i actualy arent sure where your coming from on this
Yes, it’s sometimes difficult to understand when the debate is framed in good vs bad. I think legalisation is the preferred option (harm minimisation, stop putting smokers and growers in jail etc). But I don’t believe that cannabis use in NZ is benign or low risk in the way it is often presented. So I tend to argue both sides of the fence when I get presented with such a fence.
For instance, I’ve had many arguments with people who believe that drugs are already readily available to let’s legalise them. I agree, let’s legalise (some of) them, but let’s not pretend that alll people today can access cannabis as easily as they would if it were legal. It amazes me that I have to explain this. Cannabis access currently requires access to people with (a) the willingness to break the law and (b) a supply. Anyone who’s smoked for any length of time knows that supply and access during prohibition are sometime intermittent. It won’t be when legal. Let’s just be honest about that and then we can deal with the various issues that arise from that.
(Cannabis isn’t available to anyone with the cash. You have to find a supply, and you have to know someone who can supply in the first place. Those things aren’t universal.)
I’m not pusing the point about enforcing age limits because I think we should keep prohibition. I’m pushing it because I want people to really think this through, so we can design a system that takes into account that legalising cannabis for adults will make it more available to teens. Much more IMO.
“prohibition doesnt work – full stop”
We can keep arguing this back and forth, but the fact that there are people this very day who can’t access cannabis (either because their supplier ran out, or because they don’t know a supplier) suggests that it does work to some degree. By work, I mean lessen the amount being consumed. I don’t mean that it stops all use.
(I think cannabis should be decriminalised, but I’ve seen the ‘we can all get whatever whenever we want’ arguments applied to other drugs, including opiates, which just makes me mistrust the person making the argument, because it is patently wrong).
I really don’t get why that is so hard to accept (that cannabis is not always on tap).
“I really don’t get why that is so hard to accept (that cannabis is not always on tap).”
i dont think anyones being quite that absolute – best not to rely on that interpretation as its a little off
Ok, although it does seem to be the underlying thing about prohibition doesn’t work, and that enforcement will work.
I think we can set the age at 21 and lots of teens will smoke because of the availability. I started smoking cigarettes mid teens by taking them from my parents. It’s not hard to imagine lots of ways that current teens will access. One of the solutions to that is to change the culture around how and why we get out of it. Narratives about cannabis being low risk don’t serve that (and it’s going to be an uphill battle anyway).
Growing or brewing your own is a relatively good filter against substance abuse – good beer takes some time and clean equipment, and dope plants don’t grow overnight or like frost. If one’s life is messed up those things are harder to sustain.
Notice how home spirit production is now allowed and the world continues to revolve not too differently to the way it did before. The problem products were often commercial – alcopops and similar cynically designed delivery vehicles.
I’m betting full legalisation would have limited effects – problematic non-compliant youth abusing dope instead of alcohol or god knows what else are probably safer on balance.
Un-fucking-believable.
Still can’t make an argument or explain your views CV?
weka, at this stage I’m aiming my communications at other readers of this thread, not at you, thanks.
Me too.
That wouldn’t surprise me. It’s been known for years that the mind achieves full maturity at about that time as well. It’s why insurance companies have higher fees for those younger than 24/25.
I’m happy to raise all of them to 21 as well.
Haha getting married is clearly as dangerous as going to war, drinking, driving, or smoking pot
it gave me PTSD !
Well, not too far off, according to the domestic violence stats.
Excellent, this is surely a policy that the whole opposition can show some unity on.
How about a referendum on legalising recreational marijuana and hemp?
How about one step at a time!
We can take a few more years and watch and learn from what is going on in the USA states that have legalized.
we could learn from countries like Portugal that have been doing this for years
Or just get with the programme – Colorado uses some of the money raised in taxes to help the homeless, lets not wait a few years to mimic them 🙂
I’d prefer we were progressive not conservative in our policies and Labour was too
Its a good way to ease the rabid conservatives into it , no one with a brain can argue against medical marijuana.
rabid conservatives… bugger easing that lots ignorance and fear of anything that they can’t or don’t already control, of all groups in our society they need a bong hit the most
Why do we keep holding on to a failed policy
Prohibition of alcohol failed
Prohibition of marijuanna failed
drug abuse of alcohol and marijuanna cant be solved by involving the police, all that happens is you destroy the credibility of the police.
In case you havent noticed we have a very serious problem of police corruption that is systemic and reaches to the very top of that organisation. This corruption is a direct result of the “drug wars” and is the logical outcome of declaring “war” on a sector of society.
The war on marijuanna is over and we lost. Vacate the field as quickly as possible,
That is not in any way to diminish or underestimate the damage that underage drinking and overuse of marajuanna causes, These are very serious problems , but they are not and will not be addressed by prohibition. Let it go!
If the labour party was genuine in wanting to address the problem of drug abuse they would introduce
1 feed every hungry kid
2 halve class sizes
3 rent control
4 a tax rate of 99% for income over 500,000
5 debt writedown
6 universal basic income
In other words an egalitarian society where people have HOPE.
How about 89% set at 10x the full time minimum wage = every dollar over $310K pa.
very good CV, baseing the point of top tax rate on a multiple of minimum wage seems proper and would give the right “market signals” (eeeekk i go wash my mouth out now !)
makes me nervous when i hear the term “Cannabis Based Products”
no half measures we need to legalise the whole natural plant now !
Cannabis based products can be whole plant too…
Sativex is 2 strains of hashoil with chlorophyll removed, in a spray can with peppermint to taste better
“Sativex® contains active ingredients called ‘cannabinoids’, which are EXTRACTED from cannabis plants grown and processed under strictly controlled conditions. It is composed primarily of a 1:1 ratio of two cannabinoids-CBD (cannabidiol-a non-psychoactive cannabinoid) and THC (delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol)”
http://www.gwpharm.com/sativex-faqs.aspx
i dont think its as straight forward as “hash oil” , Im pretty sure sativex aint smokable !
I do know it pack a hell of a kick though !
Bit late to the party but this is a good first step
Just so people understand, I’m referencing I’m late to the party in commenting, not that Labours late to the party.
both are true i guess 🙂
So is every other party being late as well (except the Greens I’m guessing)
Those who believe that cannabis is a useful drug particularly for relieving pain etc.
can Give a Little to the ongoing fund to help people buy the drug while it is still not available under the public health system.
https://givealittle.co.nz/cause/legalmcfor10
Since Helen Kelly – recent Council of Trade Unions President, unions advocate and tireless worker for workers before she got cancer – put up a post on 8 May now 24 people have donated over $700 toward it.
But it is fairly expensive. So your help is needed, in bits and bobs as you can afford it.
This is something concrete, physical and helpful that you can do while keeping up pressure for intelligent policy and caring responsibility from the nation to our very sick people.
Helen Kelly’s post is here.
http://thestandard.org.nz/why-we-need-to-support-medical-cannabis-awareness-nz/
and
Helen Kelly denied medicinal cannabis | Radio New Zealand News
http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/…/helen-kelly-denied-medicinal-canna...
Feb 13, 2016 – Ms Kelly stood down from her role as Council of Trade Unions president last year after she was diagnosed with terminal lung cancer.
Thanks for the promotions of Our charity Fundraiser, going down the business donations route now, got 3 sets of couples vouchers to hells gate hot pools in Rotorua, trying to pin down some accommodation too to auction or raffle off as a package.
Not sure why many drugs are outlawed. Gangs would be screwed over if this was one. It should be done. Just another benefit imo.