NRT: Convenient amnesia

Written By: - Date published: 1:00 pm, October 3rd, 2012 - 115 comments
Categories: john key, police, slippery - Tags: , , ,

No Right Turn really says it all 

So, having told everyone that he wasn’t briefed about the Kim Dotcom spying fiasco until September, it now turns out that John Key was told about it back in February:

Key visited GCSB offices on 29 February for a briefing and to meet staff. A presentation contained a short reference to the Dotcom arrest in January ”as an example of cooperation between the GCSB and the Police.”

”The presentation was an electronic slide presentation. The cover slide was a montage of 11 small images, one of which was of Mr Dotcom,” Key said.

No written record was kept of the meeting and he wasn’t given a copy of the briefing.

Key says no reference was made to questions about residency status.

That whistling noise is the PM’s credibility shrinking even further. His amnesia is just too convenient here to be believed

Meanwhile, it appears that the GCSB have cooperated with police at least 58 times in the last three years – almost 20 times a year. Which suggests either that police are using them to do an end-run around the legal limits on police surveillance, or that GCSB tap so many phone calls that they pick up evidence of a serious crime at least once a month. Either way, its too high, and it suggests that GCSB are abusing their powers. Someone needs to take a serious look at this, and impose some proper checks and balances on such cooperation. Sadly, the government just doesn’t seem interested in doing so.

Updated: I/S is really on today – two more posts on the ever deepening fire.
  1. A guilty conscience:  “It seems that even at the time of arrest, police had a guilty conscience about how they had learned Dotcom’s whereabouts, and expected to be questioned about it.”
  2. Not so independent after all: “Yesterday I was willing to give the police the benefit of the doubt about whether they would mount an independent, transparent investigation. Clearly, I was mistaken. They’ve blown it, and ensured that their “investigation” will be labelled a whitewash from the outset.”

115 comments on “NRT: Convenient amnesia ”

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  1. gobsmacked 1
    3 October 2012 at 1:10 pm

    It gets better …

    According to Radio Live 1 pm bulletin, Key says the picture of Kim Dotcom in the briefing was difficult to see, because it was on a laptop-sized screen. (I am not making this up!)

    So … he didn’t remember the briefing, but now he suddenly remembers the details about the laptop, picture size, etc.

    And apparently he didn’t say “Excuse me, I can’t see what you’re showing me, and I’m supposed to, because I’m the Prime Minister, and that’s why we’re here, so let’s do this properly …”

    • David H 1.1
      3 October 2012 at 1:20 pm

      But on an even more serious note. How many times has he told the house that he was not told about KDC until the day before the raid, and how many times can you get away with lying to the house?? it seems that the answer to that question is Heaps.

      • Lanthanide 1.1.1
        3 October 2012 at 3:00 pm

        This new meeting that we now have details of occurred some weeks after the raid, so by itself it does not contradict what Key has been saying about not hearing of KDC until the day before.

        As mentioned before around these parts, Key is very emphatic on this point, so it seems unlikely any evidence will come to light that contradicts him. This actually implies that he has gone out of his way to “not know” about KDM and for there to be no paper trail to show otherwise.

    • karol 1.2
      3 October 2012 at 1:52 pm

      And it’s not like KDC wouldn’t take up a significant amount of screen space!

  2. Penny Bright 2
    3 October 2012 at 1:14 pm

    How can anyone believe a WORD that fake, phony, shonky John Key says?

    Seriously?

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1210/S00050/pm-releases-results-of-gcsb-file-review.htm

    “- The Prime Minister was not briefed by the GCSB on its role in the Dotcom matter, nor any issues of potential illegality, until Monday 17 September.”

    _____________________________________________________________
    briefedpast participle, past tense of brief
    Verb:
    Instruct or inform (someone) thoroughly, esp. in preparation for a task: “she briefed him on last week’s decisions”.
    More info »Merriam-Webster – The Free Dictionary

    briefed – definition of briefed by the Free Online Dictionary …
    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/briefed
    Succinct; concise: a brief account of the incident. 3. Curt; abrupt. n. 1. A short, succinct statement. 2. A condensation or an abstract of a larger document or series …

    brief – definition of brief by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus …
    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/brief
    Succinct; concise: a brief account of the incident. 3. Curt; abrupt. n. 1. A short, succinct statement. 2. A condensation or an abstract of a larger document or series …

    Legal brief – Brief Legal Definition Of Brief. … – Briefs – Brief about
    briefing – definition of briefing by the Free Online Dictionary …
    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/briefing

    brief·ing (br f ng). n. 1. The act or an instance of giving instructions or preparatory information to someone. 2. A meeting at which such information is presented. 3.
    _____________________________________________________

    “- The Prime Minister visited GCSB offices on 29 February for a briefing on the broader capabilities of the bureau, and to meet the staff. A paper prepared as talking points for the staff member conducting a presentation contained a short reference to the Dotcom arrest a few weeks earlier, as an example of cooperation between the GCSB and the Police. The presentation was an electronic slide presentation. The cover slide was a montage of 11 small images, one of which was of Mr Dotcom.”

    _____________________________________________________

    YOU LIE – YOU DIE?

    (Speaking politically – off course 🙂

    _____________________________________________________
    PM releases results of GCSB file review

    Wednesday, 3 October 2012, 11:49 am
    Press Release: New Zealand Government

    Rt Hon John Key

    Prime Minister

    3 October 2012

    PM releases results of GCSB file review

    Prime Minister and Minister Responsible for the Government Communications Security Bureau John Key this morning released the results of a full review of GCSB files conducted by Director Ian Fletcher.

    Since 17 September, the date on which Mr Fletcher advised the Prime Minister of the illegal activity in respect of Mr Dotcom, the bureau has been working through its Dotcom-related files in order to cooperate with both the Neazor inquiry and the matters before the High Court.

    The Prime Minister said that on Monday, 1 October, he meet with the Director and sought an assurance that the GCSB had reviewed all relevant files.

    The Director then conducted a further review of the material and provided it to the Prime Minister’s office last evening. Earlier yesterday afternoon Mr Fletcher met the Prime Minister to discuss his initial findings, which were subsequently confirmed that evening.

    The review of the files found the following.

    – The Prime Minister was not briefed by the GCSB on its role in the Dotcom matter, nor any issues of potential illegality, until Monday 17 September.

    – The Prime Minister was not briefed by any group or official within the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet on the GCSB’s role in the Dotcom matter ahead of the 17 September meeting. Roy Ferguson, Director of the Intelligence Coordination Group, was made aware by GCSB of its role in the arrest of Mr Dotcom the day of the raid but only after it occurred in January 2012. Mr Ferguson has advised the Prime Minister that his records indicate he did not subsequently brief the Prime Minister on the matter. It is not Mr Ferguson’s role to brief the Prime Minister on operational matters.

    – The Prime Minister visited GCSB offices on 29 February for a briefing on the broader capabilities of the bureau, and to meet the staff. A paper prepared as talking points for the staff member conducting a presentation contained a short reference to the Dotcom arrest a few weeks earlier, as an example of cooperation between the GCSB and the Police. The presentation was an electronic slide presentation. The cover slide was a montage of 11 small images, one of which was of Mr Dotcom.

    – A short briefing note provided to the Prime Minister prior to the 29 February visit contained no reference to the Dotcom matter. The talking points paper was used by the staff member at the briefing, however neither that paper nor a copy of the presentation was provided to the Prime Minister either at that time or subsequently.

    – No written record was kept of the meeting.

    – In advising the Prime Minister of the talking points note and the electronic presentation, the Director told the Prime Minister that he had no recollection of the Dotcom matter being raised at the meeting but accepted the assurance of his staff that it was mentioned briefly, in the context of a much broader presentation.

    – At no point was any reference made to questions about residency status.

    The Prime Minister acknowledged the findings of the review and has made them public at the earliest opportunity.

    “I have been clear from the outset that I received no briefing on the operation from GCSB prior to 17 September, and this review confirms that,” says Mr Key.

    “While neither the GCSB Director nor I can recall the reference to the Dotcom matter being made during my visit to the bureau back in February, I accept that it may well have been made.

    “Given the public statements I have made in Parliament and in the media, it is important that I take this opportunity to provide this additional information.

    “I will be correcting my answers to the House when it resumes on Tuesday 16 October.”

    The Prime Minister today also noted the results of the GCSB audit into all cases of assistance to law enforcement agencies since January 2009. This audit was one of a number of steps ordered by the Prime Minister in the wake of the Dotcom matter, and was released today by the Director.

    “The audit finds that in the vast bulk of cases there is no suggestion of any illegality,” says Mr Key.

    “In three of 58 cases, however, the GCSB cannot assure me that the legal position is totally clear. More legal work is being undertaken and the GCSB will issue a further public statement when that work has been concluded.”

    ends

    _____________________________________________________
    Penny Bright
    ‘Anti-corruption campaigner’

    http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com

    • Treetop 2.1
      3 October 2012 at 1:38 pm

      “I will be correcting my answers to the House when it resumes on Tuesday 16 October.”

      It is a long time until 16 October and I am left wondering just how much correcting will be required.

  3. mickysavage 3
    3 October 2012 at 1:14 pm

    Maybe on Planet Key Johnny boy did not get a briefing from the GCSB. But on this planet he did …

  4. David H 4
    3 October 2012 at 1:22 pm

    Time for a snap election??? That was the Last of the credibility, and if you listen carefully you can hear the knives being honed to a fine edge.

  5. TheContrarian 5
    3 October 2012 at 1:30 pm

    Yep, this’ll take some explaining…

      • TheContrarian 5.1.1
        3 October 2012 at 1:42 pm

        Hopefully he’ll explain it using interpretative dance and tap.

        • insider 5.1.1.1
          3 October 2012 at 1:48 pm

          Let’s hope he doesn’t use the Goff defence.

          • felix 5.1.1.1.1
            3 October 2012 at 1:59 pm

            What, that he’s honest and has a great deal of integrity and virtually everyone agrees regardless of their political hue?

            Nah, don’t think that one’s going to work for Shonkey Jonkey.

            • TheContrarian 5.1.1.1.1.1
              3 October 2012 at 2:07 pm

              I think he means that time Phil Goff vehemently denied he was at a meeting it appears he did actually attend.

              • gobsmacked …
                3 October 2012 at 2:25 pm

                Mentioning Goff is a reminder that this is nothing new from Key.

                Goff and Key had a direct conflict of evidence about the timing of a phone call during the Richard Worth story, and Key was proved wrong. Not “he said/she said”, but factually incorrect. (Audrey Young covered this in the Herald at the time).

                But back then, not many people cared about Key’s repeated falsehoods (or “errors”, if you prefer). Because he was lovable JK.

                Nothing has changed, except the increased scrutiny, and the public’s willingness to notice.

              • felix …
                3 October 2012 at 2:47 pm

                TheContrarian, that’s precisely the point I made.

                If Goff got something wrong, the balance of probability based on his history of honesty and integrity suggests that he wasn’t lying but genuinely made a mistake.

                As for slippery John “tranzrail, blind trust, standard & poors said, north of $50, won’t be raising gst, won’t be sacking cops nurses & teachers, dinimic environment, 100% compared to other countries” Key, not so much so.

                • TheContrarian …
                  3 October 2012 at 2:49 pm

                  I was at both meetings and remember it all very clearly.

                  • alwyn …
                    3 October 2012 at 2:55 pm

                    Ah ha. You have outed yourself. Hullo to Kris Faafoi.

                  • felix …
                    3 October 2012 at 2:59 pm

                    lolz. Course you were, anonymous internet personality.

                    Unfortunately for you, I was at both meetings twice and remember the opposite, but four times as well as you.

                    • TheContrarian …
                      3 October 2012 at 3:05 pm

                      One day soon my mask of anonymity will be discarded and you’ll see my true being, Felix my man.

                      But only for you.

                      [lprent: Pleeazee…. If you want to expose yourself then please do it in the appropriate place. All such things should be done at whaleoil… ]

        • Billy Fish 5.1.1.2
          3 October 2012 at 1:49 pm

          🙂
          I would have thought maybe an interprative mime – under advisement not to open his mouth in case he puts his tap shoes in them

  6. Tiger Mountain 6
    3 October 2012 at 1:43 pm

    Key has to be gone for all money soon, one suspects there will be more revelations yet. Perhaps Blinglish actually withheld the ‘gagging certificate’ incident on purpose to hang the ‘Prime Mincer’ out to dry.

  7. captain hook 7
    3 October 2012 at 1:58 pm

    this is just post modernism in action.
    only his own truths count.
    nifty.
    isn’t it?

  8. redfred 8
    3 October 2012 at 2:03 pm

    The GCSB tells John Key…..look here is an example of how well we work with the police….

    Picture – Obese German who likes to drive expensive cars very fast, who own a company that generates 4% of global internet traffic, who paid for the largest fireworks display of its kind in NZ and lives in his Helensville electorate in the largest mansion around.

    And this is after the actual raid on 20 Jan, gets briefed on 29 Feb, kind of big news isn’t it?

    But then Key gets complete memory loss.

    I think John Key has just discovered it is the little lies that seem inconsequential and thought to be well hidden that end up biting you in the proverbial.

    No written record? I wonder if there is a recording, you would think there would be.

  9. starlight 9
    3 October 2012 at 2:15 pm

    NZ needs and deserves an ‘independant’ enquiry into the dotcom shimozzal,the longer
    shonkey tries to hide behind the deception the bigger his sack full of lies is going to
    get.
    Shonkey must think that nz’ers have no intelligence,when the public intelligence on
    this matter is getting closer to the real truth every day and i feel we are in for a
    ferris wheel of revelations into how much shonkey was really involved.
    The mere fact that the shonkey govt use the OIA to hide the truth to the public
    on a variety of what is in the ‘public interest’ shows they are not to be trusted.

  10. BLiP 10
    3 October 2012 at 2:23 pm

    .

    Slippery, or what?

  11. tracey 11
    3 October 2012 at 2:35 pm

    this wrks well for key. he can resign and get his knighthood before his party loses an election and the rules on knighthoods change again.

  12. Penny Bright 12
    3 October 2012 at 2:37 pm

    DID JOHN KEY DELIBERATELY MISLEAD THE HOUSE OVER KIM DOTCOM?

    How was a presentation by a GCSB staff member, given to Prime Minister John Key on 29 February 2012, AS PART OF A BRIEFING ON THE BROADER CAPABILITIES OF THE BUREAU, which ‘contained a short reference to the Dotcom arrest a few weeks earlier, as an example of cooperation between the GCSB and the police’ – NOT A BRIEFING BY THE GCSB ON ITS ROLE IN THE KIM DOTCOM MATTER?

    What manner of ‘weasel words’ are the NZ public expected to believe?

    Where is the accountability, at the highest levels – to the ‘Rule of Law’ – by those who have the power to ‘make the law’ and those who have the authority to enforce the law?

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/117249/pm-releases-review-of-spy-agency-files

    Seriously?

    “Prime Minister John Key says a review of the Government Communications Security Bureau’s files confirms he was not briefed about the Kim Dotcom case until 17 September.”

    Who carried out this ‘review’ of the GCSB’s files?

    Because, arguably both they and the Prime Minister LIED?

    If the purpose of the PM’s visit to the GCSB on 29 February 2012, was a ‘briefing on the broader capabilities of the bureau,’ and the Kim Dotcom raid which involved the GCSB was part of that briefing, then how, in all honesty and befitting the ‘highest ethical standards’ can it be said that the Prime Minister was not briefed about the Kim Dotcom case until 17 September 2012?

    http://www.cabinetmanual.cabinetoffice.govt.nz/2.50

    Conduct of Ministers
    2.52A Minister of the Crown, while holding a ministerial warrant, acts in a number of different capacities:

    in a ministerial capacity, making decisions, and determining and promoting policy within particular portfolios;in a political capacity as a member of Parliament, representing a constituency or particular community of interest;in a personal capacity.

    2.53In all these roles and at all times, Ministers are expected to act lawfully and to behave in a way that upholds, and is seen to uphold, the highest ethical standards. Ultimately, Ministers are accountable to the Prime Minister for their behaviour.

    ________________________________________________________________________________

    TO WHOM IS THE PRIME MINISTER ACCOUNTABLE FOR ALLEGED BREACHES OF THE ‘HIGHEST ETHICAL STANDARDS’???

    “He says while neither he nor Mr Fletcher can recall the reference to Dotcom being made he accepts it might have happened.
    As a result he will correct an answer he gave Parliament on the matter last month when the House resumes sitting in two weeks.”

    If you’re the Prime Minister – and you allegedly LIE to the House over NOT being briefed about the Kim Dotcom case until 17 September 2012 – when you arguably were indeed briefed about the Kim Dotcom raid on 29 February 2012 – how is this NOT ‘Contempt of the House’?

    http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/AboutParl/HowPWorks/PPNZ/7/4/3/00HOOOCPPNZ_471-Chapter-47-Contempt.htm

    Misconduct

    Deliberate misleading of the House

    It is a contempt deliberately to attempt to mislead the House or a committee, whether by way of a statement, in evidence or in a petition. [98] This example of contempt, while always potential, was given explicit recognition in 1963 when, following a political cause célèbre (the Profumo affair), the House of Commons resolved that a former member who had made a personal statement to the House which he subsequently acknowledged to be untrue had committed a contempt of the House. [99] It has been submitted that there is an established constitutional convention that Ministers should always tell the truth to Parliament as far as this is possible without harming national security. [100] Whether this type of contempt embodies a convention or not, regarding lying to the House as a serious transgression of parliamentary etiquette (quite apart from any moral considerations) has been said to be the only way for Parliament to keep a check on the executive. [101]

    The contempt can be committed by anyone taking part in parliamentary proceedings. It consists of the conveying of information to the House or a committee that is inaccurate in a material particular and which the person conveying the information knew at the time was inaccurate or at least ought to have known was inaccurate. [102]

    Members deliberately misleading the House
    Most commonly allegations that there has been an attempt deliberately to mislead the House involve statements made by members in the House – whether by way of personal explanation, in the course of debate or in replying to a question.

    There are three elements to be established when it is alleged that a member is in contempt by reason of a statement that the member has made: the statement must, in fact, have been misleading; it must be established that the member making the statement knew at the time the statement was made that it was incorrect; and, in making it, the member must have intended to mislead the House. The standard of proof demanded is the civil standard of proof on a balance of probabilities but, given the serious nature of the allegations, proof of a very high order. [103] Recklessness in the use of words in debate, though reprehensible in itself, falls short of the standard required to hold a member responsible for deliberately misleading the House. [104] The misleading of the House must not be concerned with a matter of such little or no consequence that is too trivial to warrant the House dealing with it. A misunderstanding of this nature should be cleared up on a point of order. [105]

    For a misleading of the House to be deliberate, there must be something in the nature of the incorrect statement that indicates an intention to mislead. Remarks made off the cuff in debate can rarely fall into this category, nor can matters about which the member can be aware only in an official capacity. But where the member can be assumed to have personal knowledge of the stated facts and made the statement in a situation of some formality (for example, by way of personal explanation), a presumption of an intention to mislead the House will more readily arise. [106]

    As well as a deliberate misleading of the House arising from a remark in the House, it is conceivable that members could mislead the House by their actions: for example, from a deliberate misuse of a voting proxy, by delivering to the Clerk a totally different document from that which the member obtained leave of the House to table, [107] or by misrepresenting their authority to act on behalf of an absent member. [108]

    ________________________________________________________________________________

    WHAT ACTION MAY/WILL BE TAKEN IN THE HOUSE AGAINST THE NZ PRIME MINISTER JOHN KEY?

    We shall see…………………………….

    Isn’t it HIGH time for an ENFORCEABLE ‘Code of Conduct’ for New Zealand Members of Parliament?

    New Zealand is ‘perceived’ to be the ‘least corrupt country in the world’ according to the 2011 Transparency International ‘Corruption Perception index’.

    Is this now a New Zealand corruption ‘reality check’?

    Starting from the top?

    Penny Bright
    ‘Anti-corruption campaigner’

    http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com

    • Jokerman 12.1
      3 October 2012 at 7:23 pm

      The social contract is nothing more or less than a vast conspiracy of human beings to lie to and humbug themselves and one another for the general Good. Lies are the mortar that bind the savage
      INDIVIDUAL man into the social masonry.

      -Wells

    • Tim 12.2
      3 October 2012 at 8:06 pm

      As I’ve mentioned before – I can’t understand why we can’t have a “Gough Witlam/John Kerr” moment> It seems to me there are some ministerial warrants that need removing. I know its the gift that keeps on giving but its also bloody serious. From slippery dishonesty to outright lying repeatedly – credibility stretched beyond credibility. It might be time a collective opposition tested certain constitutional matters even if it means involving dear old Liz

  13. marty mars 13
    3 October 2012 at 2:39 pm

    the only way key can slime his way out of this is if we let him. What an utter disgrace. His cabinet is the worst bunch of dropkicks that I can remember since, well maybe, ever. The best aspect of this is that it is key directly and personally in the headlights – he lives for his image and that is tarnishing by the day – his vain, shallow personality is being revealed and it’s not pretty. He trusts his own judgement even though he knows he makes it all up as he goes along and he’s afraid the truth will come out, the truth that behind the image is… very little indeed.

    • the pink postman 13.1
      3 October 2012 at 2:53 pm

      Great comment marty M. Could we add that he is a hedonistic ,narcissitic out and out liar. However its not only the Dot-Com episode that he conveniently has forgotten he has completely forgotten his beginings . That to me is the real failure of this fancy boy spive.

  14. freedom 14
    3 October 2012 at 3:16 pm

    “However the review found that during a February 29 visit to the GCSB offices for a briefing on the broader capabilities of the bureau, and to meet the staff, Mr Key was shown an electronic slide presentation.” http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10838117

    umm he has been PM for three F*&%ing years, he knows damn well how they work !
    The PM is pissing on us, saying it is raining and most of the the sheep are buying it

  15. paul andersen 15
    3 October 2012 at 3:21 pm

    I still wonder if there is another connection between key and dotcom. dotcom was known as a soft touch by banks, and lives in keys constituency, was he approached for a donation for key(how can these millionaries beg for bucks for elections, isnt that hypocrisy?), and more importantley, if he was touched for a donation, what was promised as a payback?????????

  16. Logie97 16
    3 October 2012 at 3:32 pm

    Wasn’t long ago that the MSM were deriding an election campaign based on “Trust”. How the worm is turning.

    You know when things are turning sour when your support parties start to talk in a less than John-can-do-no-wrong manner. The bouffant one has added his few pennies worth now and Shearer may well be getting a phone call from that one pretty soon.

  17. gobsmacked 17
    3 October 2012 at 3:40 pm

    Need a distraction ASAP? Can’t get hold of Paula?

    Burn down the Reichstag …

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/7764140/Backbencher-pub-on-fire

  18. Penny Bright 18
    3 October 2012 at 4:17 pm

    http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/another-dotcom-review-key-told-february-bc-130082#comment-587037

    (Yet to be published comment)

    DID JOHN KEY MISLEAD THE HOUSE?

    “Mr Key visited GCSB’s offices on February 29 to talk about the bureau’s wider capabilities when a power point presentation made mention of the Dotcom arrest a few weeks earlier and contained one small picture of Dotcom.”

    http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/PB/Business/QOA/1/b/f/50HansQ_20120925_00000003-3-Government-Communications-Security-Bureau.htm

    3. Government Communications Security Bureau—Briefings Since November 2008

    [Sitting date: 25 September 2012. Volume:684;Page:5560. Text is subject to correction.]

    3. Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader—NZ First) to the Prime Minister: How many times has he been formally briefed by the Government Communications Security Bureau, by year, since November 2008?

    Rt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister) : My diary indicates that I have been formally briefed by the Government Communications Security Bureau the following number of times, by year, since 2008: twice in 2008, 15 times in 2009, 11 times in 2010, 10 times in 2011, and 15 times in 2012.

    Rt Hon Winston Peters: Why was he not briefed by the Government Communications Security Bureau about who would be involved in the raid on Kim Dotcom, given the involvement of the Government Communications Security Bureau, the New Zealand Police, and an American agency, so that he could be aware that the Government Communications Security Bureau had met with Crown Law, the police, and US authorities 2 months before the January raid on Dotcom’s residence?

    Rt Hon JOHN KEY: The activity in question did not require a ministerial warrant, and I am not briefed on operational matters on every operation it undertakes.

    Rt Hon Winston Peters: When was he first briefed about the ministerial certificate that his Deputy Prime Minister signed on his behalf?

    Rt Hon JOHN KEY: Last night.
    ________________________________________________________

    Penny Bright
    ‘Anti-corruption campaigner’

    http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com

  19. Matthew Hooton 19
    3 October 2012 at 4:23 pm

    I don’t think this is much of a big deal. If there were 11 photos on the PowerPoint slide, it is perfectly reasonable that the PM may not have focussed on the one of Kim Dotcom, and that perhaps his name was just mentioned in a long list of 10 other names, which is why neither the director nor PM can remember the particular name. But David Shearer is again doing a great job upping the ante and keeping the story going. (See http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/7763234/Labour-questions-Keys-credibility-on-Kim-Dotcom ) Perhaps he’s starting to come into his own now.

    • BloodyOrphan 19.1
      3 October 2012 at 4:27 pm

      More likely he couldn’t stop Imagining DotComs money in his greedy little hands M8!

    • Kotahi Tāne Huna 19.2
      3 October 2012 at 4:27 pm

      Yeah, he’s not paying the slightest attention to his duties, you’ve got it.

    • Te Reo Putake 19.3
      3 October 2012 at 4:30 pm

      How many of the other ten were larger than life  German internet millionaires living in his electorate, Matthew?
       
      And, do you think there is any link between Key’s statement today about excessive marijuana use in the tourism industry and the Minister of Tourism’s short term memory problems?

    • mickysavage 19.4
      3 October 2012 at 4:59 pm

      Matthew it seems that you are incessantly talking up David Shearer.  Why is that?

      • Kotahi Tāne Huna 19.4.1
        3 October 2012 at 5:04 pm

        I think “Hoots” regards himself as a one-man right-wing think-tank, and they say what people pay them to.

      • Te Reo Putake 19.4.2
        3 October 2012 at 5:05 pm

        Homer’s Brain: Use reverse psychology.
        Homer: Oh, that sounds too complicated.
        Homer’s Brain: Okay, don’t use reverse psychology.
        Homer: Okay, I will!

      • mike e 19.4.3
        4 October 2012 at 9:56 am

        Matthew is suffering from memory loss he’s forgotten which side he represents!

    • starlight 19.5
      3 October 2012 at 5:21 pm

      You got to be kidding right ! this was the biggest attack in nz on a single individual
      which included helicopters,swat teams,police,secret service,the us,the whole invasion
      process being watched on screens in the us and in the halls of power in nz,
      the total involvement of our spy agencies and yes key himself ,as he was in charge of the department.
      You say shearer is continuing the saga,this is very dismissing of you
      it is in fact the people of nz who are continuing to comment on this
      attack because it represents the rights and freedoms for all nz’ers and how
      they can be abused and dismissed by power hungry politicians such as key.
      Nothing to hide,nothing to fear key hides behind the oia so that his secrets
      can be kept from the people of nz,what does that tell you.

    • BLiP 19.6
      3 October 2012 at 5:46 pm

      .

      So, asked a question in the House, on notice, and King John The Clueless of Charmalot doesn’t even bother checking with his own ministry? Its entirely possible the slippery one has not lied but simply made *another* “mistake” . . . yet it is entirely indicative of his utter contempt for Parliament, incompetence as a Minister, and the fact that he has given up. Its all got too difficult for him, not much fun anymore being Prime Minister. Mentally, he’s already teeing off on Planet Key.

  20. Tiger Mountain 20
    3 October 2012 at 4:45 pm

    The Prime Minister (yes, I usually call him ShonKey here) has let the country down and his days are numbered one way or another.

  21. Logie97 21
    3 October 2012 at 5:08 pm

    Nuzlind, believe me. I DO NOT REMEMBER ANY OF THE ELEVEN SLIDES ON THAT PRESENTATION ON THE 14 INCH TOSHIBA LAPTOP THAT WAS SITTING ON THE MIDDLE DESK AND HAD A LOVELY BOUQUET OF FLOWERS ON IT. Believe me, please. Acshully I think I don’t …

  22. Rhinocrates 22
    3 October 2012 at 5:21 pm

    Ah yes, the excitable Mr Hooton, the gift that keeps on giving… and the gift that gives away too much because he just can’t help himself.

    What does National want us to think? Hooton comes on and in the most ham-fisted way imaginable tells us so. “No, no, really, keep Shearer as leader! He’s great! Sack Cunliffe! Remember this – Key’s being smart, it’s justified! Such a savvy political operator! Look forward to 2014: Shearer vs Key. It’ll be a battle of Titans, shrewd Key versus his worthy, honourable opponent (who is most definitely not David Cunliffe), but Key will win by a whisker, phew!”

    Really, who on earth believes that this guy is a disinterested, objective commentator? He’s the commentariat’s equivalent of push-polling. By all means, look at what he says, because that shows what really scares his masters, but never, ever believe a word he says, and don’t waste your time arguing with him. You should only bother to argue with people who have intellectual integrity and consistency. Hooton wouldn’t know them if they crept up his back and farted in his ear.

    Correction: he would, but he’d ignore them, because like many fundamentally mediocre people, he’s confused cynicism with intelligence.

  23. Kotahi Tāne Huna 23
    3 October 2012 at 5:27 pm

    TVNZ reports that:

    A photo of Dotcom was used in the presentation and the bureau’s involvement was listed as a possible discussion point on a document used by a staff member.

    It sounds like Dotcom was merely being used as an illustration – as though his mere appearance would “illustrate” whatever they were discussing. As though the people present would understand why without it needing to be explained.

    I’d rather Key were lying (and therefore unfit for office), rather than disinterested (and therefore unfit for office), but either way he’s dog tucker.

    • Rhinocrates 23.1
      3 October 2012 at 5:39 pm

      Sorry to be a pedantic bore (one of my jobs is teaching writing), but “UNinterested” is what you probably mean. “Disinterested” means “without a stake”, “detached from the conflict”, “objective” – “interest” denoting having something invested in the outcome of a dispute, as in “an interested party”. Key is most certainly “interested” in that sense as he’s clearly looking forward to positions on the boards or as chairman for major companies.

      However, I find this issue fascinating and I ask myself if Key will be New Zealand’s Nixon, i.e.., the shorthand for corruption. “Gate” has been the lazy suffix of choice for any (increasingly trivial) scandal, but since Key’s behaviour is now being revealed as cynical, self-serving, morally corrupt and unconstitutional, will Key occupy a position in our history as a symbol of corruption as Nixon does in America’s and will “Keyed” and/or “Dotcommed” find their way into the vernacular as “Muldoonism” has?

      • Kotahi Tāne Huna 23.1.1
        3 October 2012 at 5:42 pm

        Thank you for that, Rhinocrates. Yes, I meant uninterested.

        And yes, I think this story has legs. Especially after the attempt to go after Bradley Ambrose.

      • Rhinocrates 23.1.2
        3 October 2012 at 5:48 pm

        For what it’s worth, I believe that Richard Nixon is a truly Shakespearean tragic protagonist as his triumphs in foreign policy – such as detente – and even domestic policy -such as the foundation of the EPA – showed that he had true greatness nested within him… whereas Key is utterly, utterly banal and mediocre. He doesn’t even measure as an embodiment of evil. At the very least he could wear red tights and hold a pitchfork, but he can’t even be bothered doing that, the lazy bastard.

        OK, forget the Darth Vader stuff, how about a goatee at least? Maybe even a fluffy white cat?! Perhaps a Nehru jacket?!!!!

        Please, I’m begging here – a shaved head even? Headquarters in a hollowed volcano or in Antarctica? Come on! Look, polar headquarters are all the rage, I assure you!

        Please, I’m begging now!

        God, you’re dull. Irredeemably dull! Almost as dull as ShearerI give up!

      • Peter Wilson 23.1.3
        3 October 2012 at 5:56 pm

        I certainly hope that these years will be written off as an aberration, one never to be repeated. But that depends on two things:

        1) Labour taking the fight to Key hard and unrelenting. You can expect Norman and Turei to do the same, but it needs to come from all of them.

        2) Labour being prepared to clean it all up, upon taking the Treasury benches in 2014.

  24. Anne 24
    3 October 2012 at 5:55 pm

    As though the people present would understand why without it needing to be explained.

    Precisely.

    It wouldn’t occur to GBSC officials that the prime-minister didn’t know who Dotcom was… and (supposedly) didn’t have a heads up on what was going on. I mean, they probably assumed Warner Bros. had been sending him weekly updates – no point in them wasting time on things Key knew more about than they did. I mean, it makes sense dunnit.

    Anywaysss, with a memory like Key’s – and his sidekick John Banks – what’s the point of the
    GBSC or the SIS telling him anything… he’s forgotten it the next day.

  25. RedLogix 25
    3 October 2012 at 6:10 pm

    I’m too busy right now to follow this up; but I seem to recall in the immediate aftermath of Dotcom’s arrest in January that Key made some statement in public along the lines of “how did this guy get residency?”

    If Key was fully aware of Dotcom’s residency in January and yet cannot recall a GCSB ‘presentation’ which mentions the same man in February (despite the very, very high profile of the matter) … and fails to connect the dot himself … then we have a terminal case of ‘brain fade’ indeed.

    • Zorr 25.1
      3 October 2012 at 9:07 pm

      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/video.cfm?c_id=1&gal_objectid=10781209&gallery_id=123534

      A video on NZH from Jan 24th with John Key discussing the raid on KDC…

      • deuto 25.1.1
        4 October 2012 at 7:33 am

        Just watched the video on the Herald link that you provided, Zorr – and would urge others to also watch it.

        Key talking on 24 Jan 2012 about Kim Dotcom and the raid – and his residency status in quite some detail.

        From the detail that Key discusses at about 2 minutes into the video, it would appear to me that he had been well briefed on KDC’s residency status – and IIRC Key states that his people were checking KDC’s residency status and why it was granted etc.

        AND yet he claims that he cannot recall the GCSB presentation just a month later which included mention of the Bureau’s cooperation with the Police re the raid? Yeah right.

        Thanks Zorr.

      • r0b 25.1.2
        4 October 2012 at 9:44 am

        Thanks Zorr – that turned out to be a really useful find.

  26. Jenny 26
    3 October 2012 at 6:37 pm

    John Key famously accused junior members of the GSCB of having a “brain fade”.

    Now it seems that they are getting their own back by releasing documents showing the Prime Minister himself during a guided tour of the GSCB operation in February had a “Brain Fade”. The documents of his visit show that he was told that the GSCB was working with the police. John Key said that himself, as well as the head of GSCB, both had no recollection of being told this. Despite documents showing that the comments were made in their presence. To which Key replied I suppose they must have been. I just have no recollection.

    Is this ‘Brain Fading’ thing contagious? Should we be worried?

    Will John Key persevere in his campaign to make junior officers of the GSCB the fall guys?

    • Sunny 26.1
      3 October 2012 at 10:38 pm

      I really hope that he does keep dropping the low ranking spies in it…that means they’ll keep on leaking, hurt pride/sick of the Pie and Penthouse jokes and all that….

  27. Jenny 27
    3 October 2012 at 6:46 pm

    Illegal activities

    Evidence of perjury

    Convenient amnesia

    Fading Brains, or Fading Morals?

  28. ianmac 28
    3 October 2012 at 6:51 pm

    A week or so ago Winston Peters during Question Time made a point of asking Mr Key repeatedly about when had he first heard of the GCSB involvement. Mr Key fumbled. I wondered why Mr Peters was so insistent about the date and why Mr Key fumbled the answer. Mr Peters suddenly stopped.
    I wonder if Mr Peters had inside information and wanted to make absolutely sure that Mr Key was on record?
    Now…….

  29. Red Rosa 29
    3 October 2012 at 6:58 pm

    The really disturbing scenario is that Key has been acting under US instruction for months, and well before the DotCom raid.

    Dotcom, whatever he is accused of in the US, is no terrorist. The police raid, which Key seems unaware of, and took place in his electorate, was one of the most high-profile police SWAT operations ever in NZ.

    It looks increasingly like Watergate, where a carefully constructed facade of ‘plausible deniability’ and low level fall guys slowly unravelled under persistent questioning.

    The real questions would go back to the months before the Dotcom raid, to check if, and how, FBI pressure was applied to Key, the police and the GCSB to get around NZ law for Dotcom’s extradition.

    At every level, there are clever people involved in all this. A mixture of mistakes and confusion makes for an embarrassing explanantion, but the real story may be far more sinsiter.

    • Anne 29.1
      3 October 2012 at 7:14 pm

      I suspect you are ‘on to it’ Red Rosa.

      Setting aside the humour and razzing, there is something deeply disturbing about this whole affair.

    • BLiP 29.2
      3 October 2012 at 7:15 pm

      .

      Not months. Years. Chances are John Key toldl Warner Bros that Kim Dotcom MegaUpload would be “gone by lunchtime” two years ago? Mr Dotcom’s residence visa was granted just a month later, in November 2010, and the current legal “confusion” stems from that date . . . what was going on? Is the real confusion about whether surveillance of a non-resident becomes illegal after residence is granted or does the original authorisation stand regardless of immigration status?

      This situation isn’t a new one. What’s new is that it is starting to unravel.

    • Colonial Viper 29.3
      3 October 2012 at 7:18 pm

      Fall out from the Dotcom raid was supposed to be done and dusted by the time Key made his Hollywood trip, so that he could fly into LA as a conquering hero from the Southern Seas.

      So much for that plan.

    • Murray Olsen 29.4
      3 October 2012 at 7:56 pm

      As far as I’m concerned, the real story is very simple. Key has absolutely no interest in Aotearoa retaining any last vestiges of sovereignty. He’s putting the final diplomatic nails in a coffin that was begun by Douglas and Prebble when they destroyed our economic sovereignty. As simple as it is sinister.

    • Paul 29.5
      3 October 2012 at 8:04 pm

      I think there might be a link to the TPP in this story….Dotcom, Hollywood meetings…something smells very fishy here…..

    • Jenny 29.6
      3 October 2012 at 9:13 pm

      On no, a sleeper agent PM

      • BloodyOrphan 29.6.1
        3 October 2012 at 9:17 pm

        Dreamin he’s on Deal or No Deal
        Only ever wins 50 bucks cause it’s always ….
        Deal Deal Deal Deal (*squirmy-leggy-thing*) 🙂

      • BLiP 29.6.2
        3 October 2012 at 9:31 pm

        .

        Manchurian Candidate, more like. Hypnotically induced actions prompted by code phrases piped to him from the concealed speaker in the back of the little teddy bear John Key clutches every night while he giggles gleefully before “lights out”.

  30. Jokerman 30
    3 October 2012 at 7:14 pm

    Woe to the bloody city! It is all full of lies and robbery;
    the prey departeth not.

    -Nahum 3:1

    (like a robber’s dog)

  31. Tim 31
    3 October 2012 at 8:11 pm

    …………and again:
    as I’ve mentioned before – I can’t understand why we can’t have a “Gough Witlam/John Kerr” moment> It seems to me there are some ministerial warrants that need removing. I know its the gift that keeps on giving but its also bloody serious. From slippery dishonesty to outright lying repeatedly – credibility stretched beyond credibility. It might be time a collective opposition tested certain constitutional matters even if it means involving dear old Liz.
    Of course, it’s a shame David Shearer doesn’t read blogs.

  32. captain hook 32
    3 October 2012 at 8:14 pm

    kweewee and the national party and all the liddle peepul who voted for him because it was “OUR TURN” are going to get a rude shock in 2014 if not before.
    this government is a government of lightweights and lowbrows and juvenile omnipotent fantasists whose only desire is to make enough pelf before they get shown the door and not before time.

  33. Chris 33
    3 October 2012 at 8:54 pm

    Maybe he could end up in The Rocky Horror Show in fishnets like his idol muldoon.

  34. karol 34
    3 October 2012 at 8:58 pm

    Tweet from KDC 2 or 3 hours ago:

    https://twitter.com/KimDotcom/status/253300569186394112

    It might be time for a second Amnesia song. Remember the last one? “That politician got amnesia again.” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CvRSZxqk_I

  35. redfred 35
    3 October 2012 at 9:04 pm

    Did the NSA have access to GCSB assets to feed the FBI information before the approach to the New Zealand police. Essentially assisting a foreign intelligence agency to spy on a NZ resident.

    • freedom 35.1
      3 October 2012 at 10:00 pm

      and all those international services are public tax dollars from numerous countries working together, not to defend National Security but simply assist Corporate Interests

  36. Balanced View 36
    3 October 2012 at 9:16 pm

    What is alarming?
    1. That John Key can’t recall an illustration that wasn’t discussed on a slide presentation
    and/or
    2. That the Police and the GCSB have used phone taps illegally 3 times in the last 4 years?

    I personally don’t have an issue with 1, but have a big issue with 2. Makes you wonder what other processes they fail to comply with.

    Time for a full inquiry into the GCSB operation.

    • BLiP 36.2
      3 October 2012 at 9:33 pm

      .

      If John Fucking Key was paying attention and doing his job there would be no need for an enquiry. Balance that.

      • Balanced View 36.2.1
        3 October 2012 at 9:45 pm

        Wrong

        • BLiP 36.2.1.1
          3 October 2012 at 9:57 pm

          .

          So, John Key was paying attention and doing his job but chose to lie? That makes sense. Never mind an inquiry into GCSB, lets have an inquiry into John Key and his mendacious malfeasance.

          • Balanced View 36.2.1.1.1
            3 October 2012 at 10:13 pm

            “mendacious malfeasance” Remind me to look that up one day.

            You may have missed the point that the slide John Key cant recall was presented to him after the GCSB had illegally spied on Dotcom.

            • felix 36.2.1.1.1.1
              3 October 2012 at 10:19 pm

              And yet he did nothing about it.

              • Balanced View …
                3 October 2012 at 10:23 pm

                I’ve got a feeling that this will change shortly – but still overdue.

                I do admire him for making the correction today though.

                • McFlock …
                  3 October 2012 at 10:31 pm

                  Yes, I also admire him for correcting the statement as soon as it was discovered to be an outright lie. Oh wait, no – it is exactly what I would expect if he were 5 years old.

                • felix …
                  3 October 2012 at 10:32 pm

                  Eh? He already made the correction last week.

                  And that correction was correcting an answer to a question on notice, to which he had already researched the answer.

                  How many more tries are you going to give him to answer a simple factual question before you admit the horrible truth that’s staring you in the face?

                  • Balanced View …
                    3 October 2012 at 10:41 pm

                    I believe him when he says it was an oversight.

                    I don’t hold him personally responsible for the actions of individuals given the responsibility to make correct decisions – although I do hold him accountable for how he reacts to these issues. In my opinion he should have acted quickly to investigate why the spying took place and take corrective action.

                    • felix …
                      3 October 2012 at 11:08 pm

                      Yeah, “oversight”. Interesting choice of word there BV. You probably ought not to throw that one around too much, for Key’s sake.

                      I don’t see how it’s possible for him to research the answer to a factual question about when he did something, a question which can only have one correct answer, and come up with three different answers.

                      Remember the “Tranzrail” lies? Same pattern here. He’s admitting to whatever the questioner already knows and nothing more. Every time new information is made public, he changes his story to suit it.

                      How does the old saying go, BV? Oh yeah:

                      “Fool you once, shame on Key. Fool you three times, you’re a fucking moron”.

                • Murray Olsen …
                  3 October 2012 at 10:53 pm

                  BV, you admire him because you’re a Tory suck up. No need to add anything else.

                • Dr Terry …
                  4 October 2012 at 7:43 am

                  BV – you admire this late confession? It appears that he had no choice but to “correct” matters! I know alzheimer sufferers whose recall is better than that of Key (and Banks!) Are we to excuse, or even reward, bad behaviour?

                  NOTE: This comment is totally misplaced and belongs to a conversation far above.

            • BLiP 36.2.1.1.1.2
              3 October 2012 at 10:26 pm

              .

              I guess John Key never heard of Kim Dotcom moving into his electorate or knew about the biggest fireworks display the country has ever seen to celebrate his residency status or the fact that it is illegal for the GCSB to spy on residents. Just never crossed his tiny little mind. That is utter incompetence – incompetence as an MP, incompetence as the Minister responsible for the GCSB, and incompetence as a Prime Minister. So, what is it, incompetence or mendacious malfeasance? Now would be a good time to look it up, you’re only about four years too slow.

            • felix 36.2.1.1.1.3
              3 October 2012 at 10:33 pm

              Might want to look up “balanced” while your at it. And “view”.

  37. Logie97 37
    3 October 2012 at 10:30 pm

    …Pinocchio’s list builds ever greater
    Is anyone keeping a record?
    1981
    Tranzrail shares
    Lord Ashcroft
    etc etc

    … makes one wonder about signatures on pieces of paper investigated around 1990’s.
    Brain fade, amnesia, deceipt or lies.

    • felix 37.1
      3 October 2012 at 10:54 pm

      Don’t forget:

      Standard & Poors,
      I won’t raise GST,
      Capping, not cutting the public service,
      “North of $50 a week”,

      etc etc

      • BLiP 37.1.1
        3 October 2012 at 11:16 pm

        .

        National Ltd™ would have sent troops into Iraq
        Privatisation won’t significantly help the economy
        I’m Jewish/Christian/Agnostic
        Wave goodbye to higher taxes, not your loved ones
        “I never offered Brash a diplomatic job in London”
        Kiwisaver
        National Ltd™ is not going to radically reorganise the structure of the public sector
        Tax cuts won’t require additional borrowing
        National Ltd™ will tender out the government banking contract
        “We [NZ] have grown for eight of the last nine quarters”
        “…we will be back in surplus by 2014-15…”
        “…unemployment is starting to fall…”
        “…we have created 45,000 jobs…”
        “…we are likely to create 170,000 jobs in the next 4 years…”
        The Isreali spy killed in the Christchurch quake had “only one” passport
        The Police will not need to make savings by losing jobs

        etc etc

        • Jim Nald 37.1.1.1
          4 October 2012 at 11:39 am

          Someone should set up a webpage (or make that webpages) to crowdsource the increasing number of questionable lines that roll so easily off that slippery forked tongue.

    • framu 37.2
      4 October 2012 at 7:58 am

      speaking of 1981 – theres a great billboard up at the mo regarding the tour “every one knew which side they were on” it reads

      just needs an “except john key”

    • mike e 37.3
      4 October 2012 at 10:15 am

      I wasn’t involved in ponzi scheming and corruption while at Merrill Lynch the most corrupt Investment Bank in history!

  38. gnomic 38
    4 October 2012 at 12:47 am

    John Key is a weasel who can’t be trusted. He is also a smartarse who isn’t as bright as he likes to think despite being fully vested, and apparently an emissary of various foreign powers and commercial entities. At least the smirk seems to be fading of late. Smirking weasel becomes scowling weasel.

    As to fading brains, I believe medical science says not getting enough sleep means that the ability to think rationally is severely impaired. The weasel apparently gets only five hours a night as he toils to make NZ a banana (or perhaps milkpowder) republic – oh wait, no, we still need a monarch.

    And furthermore, should someone whose political hero is the late Robert Muldoon be Prime Minister? Grounds for automatic disqualification one might think.

  39. Colonial Viper 39
    4 October 2012 at 1:11 am

    “Balanced View” seems very easy to impress. Must be a professional turd polisher in his day job.

  40. starlight 40
    4 October 2012 at 11:22 am

    The right faction knows that key is a liar, surely,amnesia has been used successfully
    before by slippery key and banks and now english,their inside answer is to fend
    off ‘curly’ questions with 3 sequences,ie, ‘i dont know’,’can’t remember’ ‘wasn’t told’
    they know proper answers to questions would expose themselves to even more questions,
    hence the rush to shut any public scrutiny of the dotcom affair by way of the OIA.
    The nact polls must now be falling into an abyss,that is why the key supporters
    are dipping their toes into the investigative standard waters, they should take
    back to their minders that nz’ers are well aware of the corruption, the lies, and the
    manipulation.
    One thing is for sure somehow nz has to be taken back for the sake of the
    country and the people, and soon.