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NZ troops to Iraq?

Written By: - Date published: 8:41 am, October 1st, 2014 - 109 comments
Categories: iraq, john key, war - Tags: , ,

John Key before the election:

Key rules out sending troops to Iraq

Prime Minister John Key has ruled out New Zealand military intervention in Iraq, barring an unlikely United Nations Security Council mission

John Key after the election:

Key: SAS could join Isis fight on ground

PM says that if US asks for help, he can’t rule out sending troops to Iraq or Syria.

The completely neutral and balanced anonymous editorial in The Herald this morning:

NZ must be ready to join fight against Isis

If ground forces can rid Iraq of the murderers known as Isis, New Zealand should be there. This country ought to be counted among the nations that are willing to act when the cause is just and military force can be effective.

And just for historical context, John Key in 2003:

109 comments on “NZ troops to Iraq?”

  1. coaster 1

    This is one cause that I think is worth fighting. I would prefer to call for volunteers though as anyone captured will be killed by these mass murderes.

    There is no diplomacy you can use with these guys. So I back john key on this, one of the few things I have backed him on.

    • politikiwi 1.1

      The previous military campaigns aimed at ridding the world of terrorists have resulted in *drum roll please* even more terrorists, who are better funded and better organised than ever.

      Please explain why this campaign will have a different effect.

      • Jones 1.1.1

        Indeed… I believe one of the definitions of insanity is repeating the same thing over and over again and expecting to get different results.

    • Pascals bookie 1.2

      “There is no diplomacy you can use with these guys.”

      But that’s only a small part of the story.

      If we are to deploy military force as a solution, what will it take to actually succeed. What will success look like. Killing IS peeps won’t change the political dynamic that caused IS to form and rise.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 1.3

      “There is no diplomacy you can use…”

      How would you know? The strategy has been “kill them all” from the get-go. Diplomacy is for psychotic Opthalmologists and torturers.

    • Paul 1.4

      Didn’t the US fund ISIS at first because they were opposing Assad?

    • Steve Withers 1.5

      To those who think you can shoot your way out of this problem…please read some history.

      This a mental problem with economic roots. You can’t shoot it.

      Every time we go to war against this, it gets bigger. Are you paying any attention at all?

    • Mike 1.6

      Do you not realise that I.S. is a manufactured bogeyman, financed by Saudi and the Gulf states, and being used as a pretext by the US and it’s allies to get troops on the ground in Syria?

      The agenda remains the same as it was (a year ago?) when they were thwarted by Putin, and by political and public opinion in the west from going into Syria to get rid of Assad and remodel the middle east, . Something they have been trying to achieve in these these last few years, by overthrowing governments, and bombing and creating misery and chaos in country after country.

      Beheading is revolting, but is it any worse than what the US is doing? Dead people are dead people whether they die by the horror of illegal invasions, bombing, drone strikes, depleted radiation poisoning and abnormal births in Falujah, or decapitation. The politicians and their masters orchestrating these horrors are truly subhuman.

      There never was any valid reason for the creation of this endless misery for the people of the middle east and Afghanistan, there were no terrorist threats, there was never any need for any of it, other than for territorial, and geopolitical ambitions.
      How many times can they keep getting away with this, didn’t we learn anything from the Iraq lies?

      It’s frightening and frustrating to see how easily the public are deceived.

      • SPC 1.6.1

        A load of shite, there was genocide – convert or die and forced marriages etc.

        This was akin to the Hutu Tutsi genocide that New Zealand tried to confront back in the 1990’s when last on the UNSC.

  2. fambo 2

    Interesting syncronicity to see New Zealand sending troops to the Middle East almost exactly 100 years after the First New Zealand Expeditionary Force went there during the First World War. I predict this war will be over by Christmas too.

    Looking forward to snaps of SIS troops sitting on camels in front of the Great Pyramid

  3. RTM 3

    Though many NZers have humanitarian reasons for wanting to see an intervention against ISIS, and individual NZ military personnel may have the same desire, the nature of US-led military adventures, in the Middle East and also further afield, has time and again led to human rights abuses, in which NZ troops have been implicated:

    It’s hard to see how things will be different this time. Like blood and water, humanitarianism and US imperialism don’t mix well.

    • Murray Olsen 3.1

      Most of those who vote for Key and some of those who vote against him don’t allow human rights for anyone whose country Kiwi troops invade. If they did, we wouldn’t be helping to invade other countries in the first place.

      Some think we have to do it so the seppos will help us if we get in the shit. Given what usually happens to countries helped by the US and A, the last thing I’d want is their help.

  4. RTM 4

    ‘snaps of SIS troops sitting on camels in front of the Great Pyramid’

    Very few Kiwis know that we had troops in Egypt for decades, from the 1980s until several years ago, as part of the Israel and US-controlled Multinational Force and Observers:

  5. Jay 5

    I totally agree with coaster. It’s easy for us to be anti-war, we’re not the ones being stoned to death, murdered for being Christian or not observing sharia law, our sisters, daughters and mothers are not being forced into marriages, raped, or held in harems, nor are we the ones being publicly beheaded, sometimes by children wielding blunt knives, or executed en mass. If anyone doubts it’s happening, and YouTube still doesn’t convince you, I am happy to pass the hat to fund your flight to Syria so you can see for yourself.

    Extreme Muslims believe in world domination, as infidels we have no right to live in freedom in our own country. They think that they have more right to NZ than we do.

    The dissenters should perhaps remember that there were plenty of people in the 1930’s who also had perfectly reasonable arguments for not going to war with Germany, we all know how that worked out and what the Nazis had been up to. Like it or not we have the hated Americans to thank for not speaking Japanese or German right now, their ancestors paid with their lives for our freedom, which most of us take for granted. It would be perverse of us to forget that sacrifice, and that made by our ancestors by dissenting in a wave of anti USA sentiments.

    Despite the risk to NZ of terrorist attack should we get involved, we need to remember how evil triumphs when good men do nothing, and we all remember from the schoolyard what life is like if you don’t stand up to bullies.

    If we can help I say go, and let’s give these men a taste of their own medicine.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 5.1

      Speaking of full spectrum dominance by bullies, we’re not the ones whose skies are filled with murderous robots, either.

      You would wet your pants if you got a taste of the “medicine” your tax dollars provide.

    • Paul 5.2

      “Give them a taste of their own medicine”
      Are you advocating NZ troops use ISIS ‘s methods ?!!

    • adam 5.3

      SO are we going to declare war this time?

      What about Saudi Arabia they seem to be worse, if not out and out funding isis?

      Shall we talk about the Saudi regime shall we – our so called allie. More beheadings than isis last month alone, a royal family who regularly join in on tortures, women treated worse than camels, and pretty atrocious treatment of anyone of another religion – and sorry folks but Hinduism seems to hold a special place in their heart for hate. And there is the real possibility, they may have funded and organised september 11.

      But, no lets go fight a rag tag mob of criminals and thugs we promote to terrorists to help our leaders promote fear.

      Sorry Jay, but as all my grandparents served in WW2 – you making the comparison to the nazi’s is offensive and may I just point out – the worst offence of godwinism I think I’ve ever seen. But here we go – no doubt the right will tell us how bad we are for not wanting to fight thugs and criminals.

    • Steve Withers 5.4

      Then go war against the US. Their drone campaign has arguably killed just as many innocent people as IS.

      Wedding after wedding has been converted into exploding meat bags.

    • D'Esterre 5.5

      @ Jay: ” It’s easy for us to be anti-war, we’re not the ones being stoned to death, murdered for being Christian or not observing sharia law, our sisters, daughters and mothers are not being forced into marriages, raped, or held in harems…..”

      I recall this argument being used to justify the invasion of Afghanistan in 2001. The truth of the matter then was, that if the West had cared a jot about the rights of girls and women, they’d have gone in as soon as the Taliban rose to power there in the early 1990s.

      Remember that women in that country never had it so good as they did during the Communist governments of Amin and Kamal, supported by the Soviet army. And US attempts to subvert the Soviets involved funding, arming and training the mujahideen, which led directly to the rise of Osama bin Laden. And – as the saying goes – the rest is history. Ideology drove US actions against the Soviets – and the women of Afghanistan are still suffering for it.

      “Extreme Muslims believe in world domination, as infidels we have no right to live in freedom in our own country. They think that they have more right to NZ than we do. ”

      They may well believe this, but they haven’t a hope of bringing it about. ISIS is the closest that Islamists have got to realising this dream of theirs, and they simply don’t have the resources to do much more than they’ve done. And wouldn’t have got this far, but for the funding and support they’ve had from Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States. If the US were serious about stopping ISIS, it’d lean heavily on these states to withdraw support.

      We should stay the hell out of the ISIS situation; it’s very difficult watching the violence, but Western intervention will make things very much worse, given that Western meddling in that part of the world has led directly to the rise of ISIS. And, speaking of violence, have you seen any footage of the results of drone strikes by the US in the border territories and elsewhere? Pot, meet kettle. Pollies who want to sign us up to this stuff can be brave and volunteer to go into battle themselves.

      “…Like it or not we have the hated Americans to thank for not speaking Japanese or German right now, their ancestors paid with their lives for our freedom, which most of us take for granted. It would be perverse of us to forget that sacrifice, and that made by our ancestors by dissenting in a wave of anti USA sentiments.”

      Not only have you committed the sin of Godwinism, but you’ve also misrepresented what actually happened in WW2. Oh, and you’ve conflated critique with anti-Americanism: this is the last refuge of people who don’t actually have a countervailing argument.

      Europe was saved from the Germans by the Soviet Red Army, which diverted Wehrmacht resources to the Eastern Front, and which eventually inflicted a crushing defeat on them. It’s debatable whether the Allied invasion of Europe could have happened when it did, or even at all, had Hitler not made the mistake of invading the Soviet Union in 1941.

      As for the Japanese, they were prevented from reaching this part of the world by a combination of naval defeats and logistics. It was always a very tall order for them to have been able even to invade and partly occupy Australia, let alone NZ. No doubt they won’t be the last to seriously underestimate the size and complexity – and sheer distance from anywhere at all – of this country. This is the reason why we won’t see asylum-seekers arrive here by boat – unless people-smugglers hijack a good-sized tourist boat. And likely not even then. We’re protected by a whole lot of ocean, and be thankful for it. Treat with scepticism what Dear Leader – or the US equivalent – says about our geopolitical situation.

  6. coaster 6

    The only thing nescesary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

    famous quote that applys to many situations, but this is one. Irrelevant of the cause of this situation isis are an evil that needs to be stomped on.

    I would not want my children to fight in this situation as these guys are effectively serial killers, but what other option does the world have to deal with this situation?


    • One Anonymous Bloke 6.1

      It’s a bit late to start bleating about evil after four decades of supporting the Assad family. You did nothing then, what’s changed?

    • Pascals bookie 6.2

      Again though, will this option actually work?

      ‘We must do something, this is something, we must do this!’ Is not a plan.

      Destroying IS will not deal with the problems that gave rise to IS. They may well make those problems worse, and so the thing that comes after IS may be worse than IS. In the same way that IS is worse than Saddam.

    • Draco T Bastard 6.3

      The only thing nescesary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

      So, why are the good people in the ME doing nothing?
      And how much evil will we be perpetuating if we do send out troops in?

      but what other option does the world have to deal with this situation?

      Leave them to sort out their own problems rather us going in there raining bombs and bullets and forcing our systems on them which really just creates more groups like ISIS.

  7. Phil Tate 7

    George Monbiot eloquently sums up the situation in his latest article; “Bomb Everyone.
    Humanitarian arguments, if consistently applied, could be used to flatten the entire Middle East”. It’s a scathing attack on the threadbare logic being once again applied to action in MENA countries.
    The day the Herald employs journalists of George’s calibre and integrity (of whatever political stripe) I might start reading it again.

  8. coaster 8

    As an additional thought, have a think how any of us would feel if an isis fighter who had killed for pleasure came back to nz and moved next door.
    I agree with the sentiments about cause, and previous wars in the middle east, but sometimes war is the only option.

    • Hanswurst 8.1

      have a think how any of us would feel if an isis fighter who had killed for pleasure came back to nz and moved next door.

      Okay, I’ve thought about it. Now, what does that have to do with going to war again?

    • Pascals bookie 8.2

      So how much war would you support. What do you think it would take to actually achieve what it is you think needs to be achieved.

      Look at the scale of the anti-Saddam effort, which failed and gave rise to this.

      How will this crisis require less effort to succeed?

      If war is the only option, then we have to fight it with the scale to make it work. What would that look like, in your view?

    • Paul 8.3

      Did you read Monbiot’s article?

    • Murray Olsen 8.4

      As an additional thought, have a think how any of us would feel if a NZ Army fighter who had killed for pleasure came back to NZ and moved next door.

      It’s happened heaps in the US. War destroys people and if their bodies survive, they come home as damaged goods. I’d say they’re more dangerous to us than any imaginary deluded young guy who thinks he’s converted to Islam and goes off on some jihad.

  9. coaster 9

    Diplomacy could have been used on asad, would anyone volunteer to go into isis held territory to try and negotiate with them?.

    We can bleat on about the cause, and fault, but how many of the isis fighters are there for the enjoyment of killing?, I would hazard a guess at a high percentage.

  10. Mary Anne 10

    New Zealand should not get involved with war in any shape or form.
    It is not our war.

  11. infused 11

    Well the situation has changed hasn’t it? Very much so from 2003.

  12. Puckish Rogue 12

    Is this the best the left can come up with? (Of course it is silly question) The situation has changed so I would expect the position of our democratically elected leader to change

    You lefties really do need to learn to pick your battles, supporting Key on this would boost Labour not hurt it

    • adam 12.1

      Where is your condemning of the Godwinism above PR_spin? Selective on it, are we? Not such a precious principle anymore?

    • Paul 12.2

      It’s not about Labour this discussion.
      It’s about the morality of war.
      Is everything you do just a tactic?

    • ropata 12.3

      Will Puckish Rogue be volunteering to go and kill on behalf of the Empire?

      • Puckish Rogue 12.3.1

        If I’m recalled (yes recalled as I’ve served perviously) or indeed asked I would

        • Minarch

          where were you stationed Puck ?

          • Puckish Rogue

            Linton, Burnham, a little time at Trentham(so the usual really) and a tour in East Timor, I will admit to needing a couple of weeks to get up to scratch running wise but everything else wouldn’t be a problem

            • minarch

              supporting FRETILIN ?

              what are you a communist ?.

              • Puckish Rogue

                Going where I’m told by the government of the day (Labour as I recall) which is as it should be

                • ropata

                  Another useful idiot for cannon fodder. I pity you.

                  • Puckish Rogue

                    So you think the armed forces should ignore what the government of the day wants?

                    Yeah see when the military ignores what the government of the day wants it normally ends up being very bad for everyone

                    Well everyone that doesn’t think a junta is a good idea

                    • ropata

                      Military adventures on behalf of Mother England and Uncle Sam haven’t been particularly great chapters in NZ history. More like senseless tragedies.

                      Mindless obedience to the government is part of military culture, but it’s not how democracy works in civil society.

                    • adam

                      Actually a concern for me PR-spin, now you talked about recalls – would be the recall of many of the retired SAS troops. They have been in combat zones for a long time, and that takes a toll. If they were thrown back into the front lines straight away we could have some serious issues and deaths.

                      That aside from the fact I think this particular adventure, is stupid, for a series of reason I’ve already stated above.

                    • Pascals bookie

                      “So you think the armed forces should ignore what the government of the day wants? ”

                      No. I think having a military that follows civilian orders is a precious thing. The flipside of it is that citizens have a moral duty to be really sure that the politicians are giving orders to the military that won’t waste their lives.

                • Paul

                  “Civil disobedience is not our problem. Our problem is civil obedience. Our problem is that people all over the world have obeyed the dictates of leaders…and millions have been killed because of this obedience…Our problem is that people are obedient all over the world in the face of poverty and starvation and stupidity, and war, and cruelty. Our problem is that people are obedient while the jails are full of petty thieves… (and) the grand thieves are running the country. That’s our problem.”

                  Howard Zinn

                • Draco T Bastard

                  The thing that shouldn’t be is the government sending our troops to war over seas.

              • Murray Olsen

                Probably training Kopassus.

  13. Bill 13

    So years and decades of helping to decimate/exterminate any political opposition in the region…installation of Saddam Hussein, The Shah in Iran, support for the Ibn Sauds etc.

    Now, what did people think would happen when opposition had no political expression but the possibility of forming some religiously based analysis of opposition and hope?

    And what did those same people think would happen to the nature of that opposition when the people caught up in it were subjected to long term and extreme forms of oppression? (Hint – think Cambodia circa 1970s)

    Finally, as Angus Robertson (Foreign Affairs spokesperson for the SNP) noted in opposing the call by the UK government military engagement

    The motion does support bombing but there is not a single mention in it anywhere about a strategy or plan to win the peace. The motion asks for a green light for military action which could last for years(but) there is no commitment in the motion for post-conflict resolution.

    In other words, the idea seems to be to bomb because….well, because we can. It’s bollocks.

    • Draco T Bastard 13.1

      The idea, IMO, is to bomb because it increases profits for the arms manufacturers, creates a few jobs thus helping re-election and eliminates some the poor.

  14. Tautoko Viper 14

    USA went into Iraq without thinking about what was going to happen in the aftermath after Saddam Hussein was removed. What is the plan if US “win”? Then what? How much of the US policy is being dictated by Israel? Who stands to make money out of this war?

  15. Southern Man 15

    I know the Americans don’t understand irony but do you think anyone in the Administration has reflected on the wisdom of US troops training ISIS fighters when they assumed the target would be Assad?

    • D'Esterre 15.1

      @ Southern Man: ” do you think anyone in the Administration has reflected on the wisdom of US troops training ISIS fighters when they assumed the target would be Assad?” Ha! I doubt it somehow…

  16. Jay 16

    It’s still none of you kneeling handcuffed preparatory to being publicly beheaded, all filmed from multiple angles, nor are you about to be stoned to death by a howling mob for having sex out of wedlock, nor are you facing a firing squad for speaking out about the destruction of historical sites. These things and far worse are happening RIGHT NOW. I expect it’s very easy for you to suggest diplomacy, or to ask how invading will make things better in the future. I wonder though if all the people about to be horrifically murdered today would be quite so philosophical. My heart goes out to them, and I will be very proud if our fine and very brave troops go to fight for them.

    Don’t contemplate the realities of this though, and for heaven sakes don’t have the courage to take a look at an actual beheading on youtube. Now go and make yourself a cup of tea and a biscuit and think about how it’s not “our” war.

    • adam 16.1

      i’ve responded to this Jay, see above.

    • Paul 16.2

      Are we going to invade Saudi Arabia as well?
      They behead people publically.
      Have you read Monbiot’s aeticle?

      • One Anonymous Bloke 16.2.1

        Of course he hasn’t. Dear Leader is the only weathervane Jay needs.

      • Minarch 16.2.2

        speaking of the Saudis

        “Saudi Arabia has a criminal justice system based on a hardline and literal form of Sharia law reflecting a particular state-sanctioned interpretation of Islam.

        The death penalty can be imposed for a wide range of offences[3] including murder, rape, false prophecy, blasphemy, armed robbery, repeated drug use, apostasy,[4] adultery,[5] witchcraft and sorcery[6] and can be carried out by beheading with a sword,[7] or more rarely by firing squad, and sometimes by stoning.”

        Bombs over Riyadh ?

        I doubt it !

    • D'Esterre 16.3

      @ Jay: “It’s still none of you kneeling handcuffed preparatory to being publicly beheaded, all filmed from multiple angles, nor are you about to be stoned to death by a howling mob for having sex out of wedlock, nor are you facing a firing squad for speaking out about the destruction of historical sites. These things and far worse are happening RIGHT NOW.”

      They sure are, and have been for many years. In Saudi Arabia, client state of the US, which chooses to ignore such goings-on, on account of the fact its interests trump any rights Saudi citizens might reasonably expect to have.

      Really, you have no option but to accept that, ghastly as these crimes are, the West can do nothing about them, because Western intervention will not be welcomed by anyone, right up to and including those whose families have been affected. And it will not be welcome precisely because of the West’s previous adventures in the Middle East, going all the way back to the 19th century and earlier. The West doesn’t have clean hands; some of its perfidy was, in the past, carried out in our names. For the sake of what’s left of our integrity, we in NZ must stay out of it.

  17. NZ should oppose any military intervention on the side of the US and its coalition of the killing which is a continuation of the two earlier US wars of 1991 and 2003.

    The US is not declaring war on ISIS but on the whole Arab Revolution, especially the Syrian revolution that continues to fight both Assad and ISIS.

    ISIS was the creation of US proxies Turkey and Saudi Arabia directed at both Assad and the Syrian revolution, as well as the Kurdish state.

    However, ISIS has exceeded its mission by threatening to destabilise the US client regime of al-Maliki in Iraq.

    For that reason the US want to kill two birds with one stone; destroy the ISIS and the Caliphate that it wants to build at the expense of US oil interests, and as ‘collateral damage’, destroy the much more threatening Arab Revolution which has the potential to rise up against ISIS and the US domination of the region.


    • ropata 17.1

      Nobel Laureate Obama has lots of shiny new drones to play with. And the new F-35 joint strike fighter to test out. America, F*ck yeah!!

      • Colonial Viper 17.1.1

        The F-35 is good for fuck all missions currently (except transferring US tax payers $ to the military industrial complex).

        • GregJ

          Actually I don’t think it is operational yet (and probably won’t be for several years yet). The F-22 has made its operational “debut” in Iraq/Syria on the current raids.

  18. Minarch 18

    Go ask any ex or current member of the P.I.R.A or any other Irish paramilitary if their fellow Irishmen being killed by the British security services put him off participating in active service…

    Republican funerals were one of there best “recruiting tools”

    • Colonial Viper 18.1

      Both the Pentagon and the White House know this. Have known it for many years.

      • Draco T Bastard 18.1.1

        Yep. If you want a continuous war then going round shooting and killing innocents is a good way to ensure you get one.

  19. ropata 19

    why don’t we intervene in the Congo, where war has been going for decades, or intervene in Central Africa to feed 3 million people, or invade Fiji and kick out that bastard Bainimarama?

    same reason… humanitarian efforts are OK, but invasion is insane.

  20. AmaKiwi 20

    “When they have made the world a solitude, they call it peace.” (Tacitus, 117 AD)

    Gallipoli, Passchendaele, Monte Cassino, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan. Don’t we realize we are the cannon fodder for the predominant empire of the day.

    Let testosterone empower us into battle so we can see how much damage we can do to others and ourselves. Then we shall call it peace.

  21. coaster 21

    War is bad and should be avoided if possible.
    yes there are brutal regimes.
    isis is not a regime, its a group of nutters who like to kill and humiliate others.

    Is say again, how many of you would be happy if one of there recruited fighters comes home, move from aus to nz, right next door to you?.

    Isis will not take prisoners, so john key needs to be very sure about sending troops in, but I would support this.

  22. SPC 22

    The Oz troops are training Iraqi forces in a Gulf state, not in Iraq.

    The only western ground forces there now are Americans defending Americans working in Iraq, and they have no fighting role.

    Objectively the worthy causes here are in providing security and aid to the refugee camps and preventing genocide – guarding civilians at risk of being killed (such as in the north of Iraq and the Kurd area of Syria). This is a peacekeeping mission to be taken up with the UN.

  23. Jenny 23

    The trap is baited all we are waiting for, is the jaws to close. Let New Zealand rush into a burning hotel to join a bar room fight, while climate change and the laws of physics bars the doors behind us.

  24. Jenny 24

    Operation Iraqi Liberation* (the return)

    Never ending war at the end of the world.

    Don’t we remember?

    Are we so blinded by blood lust we can’t think?

    The West invaded Iraq to destroy weapons of mass destruction, not,

    The West invaded Iraq because Iraq was responsible for nine/eleven, not.

    The West invaded Iraq to protect the Iraqis from a brutal dictator, a million dead and four million refugees, says not.

    The West want to invade Iraq again, to stop a brutal regime beheading Western aid workers and terrorising civilians, not.

    The brutal Royal feudal aristocracy of the petro-colony of Saudi Arabia (A society which Osama Bin Laden and all but two of the 9/11 suicide bombers called home) beheaded 21 people in the last 12 months, where most of the resident population have no civil rights at all. We happily allow this medieval barbarity to continue without interruption, year after year, so the world can keep filling its gas tanks with Saudi petrol.

    Why are we going into Iraq again?

    O.I. L*

    • Richard RAWSHARK 24.1

      Jenny likely hood is we may go where ever these ISIS criminals are, where ever that may be, for they are on the march and causing unspeakable atrocities in their wake.

      Our meagre commitment that has been promised is the SAS, most likely logistics, Tactics, observation, advisory in it’s capacity. They may fight if confronted.

      Lets keep things in perspective, yes we all know the oil wars bla bla bla, we’re already sold on it.

      The issues are always accessed on their own merits not what has preceded it.

      Show me some wild false statements of weapons of mass destructions. Show me the wrong in saving people from slaughter in the face of an oncoming bunch of religious zealots with weapons. Or as I like to call them bloodthirsty pirates.

      • Colonial Rawshark 24.1.1

        You just made the argument that NZ is only going to be a small cog in the start up of the Iraq War 3 killing machine, so no big deal. We’re going to save lives now by killing lives, surely that is a moral position?

        You speak of the “atrocities” committed by ISIS in Iraq. I wonder if you have reflected how that compares to the roughly 2M Iraqis dead due to western actions over the last 20 years?

        But then you’ve deliberately immersed yourself in a field of amnesia i.e. “The issues are always accessed on their own merits not what has preceded it,” which is of course, utter bullshit.

        In other words – you’ve fallen real hard for the sales pitch of the western power elite. But you ain’t to blame IMO, liberal intellectuals with no chance of getting sent to war themselves are the ones who are most easily propagandised into pro-war positions.

        • Richard RAWSHARK

          I made a comment about my thought on the subject that would answer your wrong assumption and will not repeat it.

          You did blow my statement out of all proportions ,claiming, I therefore have A this mentality because I say that, and really it’s just a weak way of manipulating things to suit your attack mentality.

          Constructiveness and positivity mate. They are just opinions, opinions can change with education, focus on informing me why I am wrong with a facts based argument, it might be better than using my beliefs to fill your need to be nasty to some poster here who’s recently started posting, Judith..

          and I read it again and just can’t believe what you wrote. fuck me get over yourself dude where did you get that, from what I said?

          you started well , but

          “But then you’ve deliberately immersed yourself in a field of amnesia i.e. “The issues are always accessed on their own merits not what has preceded it,” which is of course, utter bullshit”

          what the heck lane did you just change too? Did you indicate for three seconds fucking asians… 🙂

          Utter bullshit? drama queen much, tutu’s for hire 5 bucks a night?

          In other words – you’ve fallen real hard for the sales pitch of the western power elite. But you ain’t to blame IMO, liberal intellectuals with no chance of getting sent to war themselves are the ones who are most easily propagandised into pro-war positions

          Have I really? Really!

          like I say dude get over yourself you isn’t that smart, you don’t know me at all.

          at all.

          but 9/10 ten for trolling skills.

  25. tc 25

    Now that didnt take long did it.

    Johnny fires it up right on cue whilst stevey, billy and the backroom boys get busy with those unreleased policies.

    Wonder if jude gets hers correspondence school styles.

  26. Paul 26

    George Galloway on the new Iraq air strikes.

  27. Paul 27

    Tariq Ali interviews Patrick Cockburn on ISIS – where it came from, its sudden growth, the consequences for the region

  28. This newest version of the same war, will boost ISIL, and no doubt create new problems, with other groups armed and supported by the US turning “rogue”… And so it goes on. Oooo yes “ME TOO” – maybe when can go to war with our new flag!!!

    • Richard RAWSHARK 28.1

      Maybe for signing the TPPA the US is going to give Key Zealand a shit load of military weapons in exchange for us(and I don’t mean the USA).

      just throwing that out there like a hang greneade…dink dink plop

  29. HumPrac 29

    It should be a case of this…
    Those citizens who are in support of it, should provide the funding.
    Those citizens who are not in support of it, should not have to provide funding.

    It would certainly ensure that people who support the wars, would “put their money where their mouths are”.

    Really, the only options, to not fund it, that we (as citizens) have is to either quit working, or not pay tax. Either way we are backed into a corner.

    The system of “user pays” could ensure that policies would only be possible to the extent that the public are willing to support it.

    • Richard RAWSHARK 29.1

      What? Like a say, A

      “Rent a Army”

      “For Hire” to the biggest crowd of funders. LMAO Keys wet dream that.

  30. Pascals bookie 30


    growing public backlash in Syria against the campaign. The scepticism about the air strikes emanates from the lack of clarity over the real aims and objectives of the offensive. Five reasons can be identified for this cynicism, which should be addressed if the air strikes are to lead to a positive outcome.

    The first one is that the air strikes do not offer any clear endgame. This lack of clarity over what to expect from the air strikes has led Syrians to interpret the signals they have received so far. Bashar Al Assad, for example, is not only spared the air strikes, but he also has more time to bomb civilian areas, given that the pressure against his forces in Hama and eastern Aleppo has been reduced significantly. This is creating an impression that the Assad regime is a de facto partner in the US coalition, despite all the rhetoric to the contrary.

    Another reason is the economic consequences of the air strikes. On Tuesday, the Pentagon announced that most of the oil refineries controlled by ISIL in Syria have been destroyed. These refineries will prevent ISIL from generating further revenues in Syria, which will also affect ISIL in Iraq, as much of the refined oil is transferred to the other side of the border.

    However, these refineries, even before ISIL’s arrival in eastern Syria, have served as a lifeline for local communities.

    Oil refineries have helped the population in Deir Ezzor to survive starvation after they were isolated between the Iraqi authorities across theborder, on one hand, and the regime on the other. These refineries were the latchkeys of a full-fledged war economy that helped to operate water-pumping engines to irrigate lands far from the Euphrates river. Without them, the situation in Deir Ezzor would have been much worse. Destroying these refineries will not affect ISIL, which had stopped operating them days before the air strikes began, as much as it will affect families living there.

    Strategy matters, and COIN is hard. Supporting a war because ‘they are really bad guys’ doesn’t mean shit, if the actual war that is being fought is politically helping the bad guys.

  31. Arguing horror and human rights issues is confusing correlation with causation. Money is the consistent factor for the US to charge in guns blazing (and drag as many of their buddies as possible because the UN refuses to play the endless war game).

    As Monbiot pointed out, places like Saudi Arabia deserve “their own medicine” as much as anywhere, but Saudi Arabia won’t be touched. China is another country whose human rights violations are legion and systemic, but the US won’t be taking that righteous war on any time soon.

    Those war drums are actually oil drums, so don’t let the media jerk you into thinking that this particular human suffering HERE, must be handled like THIS, NOW, or the sky will fall. And of course, against all historical evidence, that this time sending in troops to kill and die will work.

  32. Remember Libya? The country we were going to liberate from that horrible Gaddafi? He’s gone but so has all semblance of peace for those hoping life would be better after NATO/US bombed the shit out of their country.
    These wars are for one thing and one thing only. making fat rich old white guys richer.

    • Richard RAWSHARK 32.1

      From Wikipedia on ISIS A very interesting wiki

      ISIL had close links to al-Qaeda until February 2014 when, after an eight-month power struggle, al-Qaeda cut all ties with the group, reportedly for its brutality and “notorious intractability”.[36][37]

      Now hold up there a minute, if the dogs of hell, al-Qaeda called them too brutal..

      Go read the wiki on Isis and then do some more research on their ambition and methods, it won’t kill you.

      This is what happens when money buys head of state in the country with the biggest war machine about. Yeah you Bush, well since Lincoln maybe. It’s bloody shameful and we dumb arses are the ones insurance and taxes are extracted to pay for it. Funding the machine that is corporate government, and leper products.

      Now keys doing it too.
      so think about it.

      But save the innocents we must! sadly it’s not their fault, they probably don’t even know what the USA is.
      Every Arab for 200 years is going to want a western head on his wall. It’ll be like northern Ireland all over again..

      what a mess Bush created , what a complete and utter fucking moron.

      • Colonial Rawshark 32.1.1

        But save the innocents we must! sadly it’s not their fault, they probably don’t even know what the USA is.

        LOL. What a fuckwit. Because 1000lb LGBs are great at saving “innocents”. Because Iraq War 1 and Iraq War 2 were so great at saving innocents. (And setting up the current cluster fuck Baghdad Government who enabled this US armed and financed ISIS monstrosity into Iraq.)

        • Richard RAWSHARK

          hug Colonel?, would you like a big old HUG!


        • Richard RAWSHARK

          I could have written a better analogy, sorry colonel but calling me a fuckwit is a bit strong dude.

          I prefer to discuss political issues with wit and prose, rather than insults and name calling, and I’m not so arrogant to assume I am right, just poorly informed if wrong.

          Opinions are meant to show the wider public perception, which by informing amongst ones peers a consensus of the correct is formed would you not agree?

          So snap out of it.

          • Colonial Rawshark

            Despite your “wit and prose” about being informed and developing consensus based on sound arguments, you chose to write a whole lot of shite based on me calling you a “fuckwit”, while simultaneously ignoring the substance of my comment.

            Which I will repeat here:

            Because 1000lb LGBs are great at saving “innocents”. Because Iraq War 1 and Iraq War 2 were so great at saving innocents. (And setting up the current cluster fuck Baghdad Government who enabled this US armed and financed ISIS monstrosity into Iraq.)

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