NZ’s Mission in Vilnius – “to defeat Russia.” Really?

Written By: - Date published: 10:50 pm, July 9th, 2023 - 52 comments
Categories: chris hipkins, defence, Diplomacy, Disarmament, military, Russia, Ukraine, us politics, war - Tags:

The prime minister stated in his speech last week our objective in the war in Ukraine was to aid Ukraine “to defeat Russia.” I couldn’t believe what I was hearing – that’s a declaration of nuclear World War III! Even the US neocons think its time to back off.

Writing in the premier US foreign policy journal Foreign Affairs, in an article titled “Don’t let Ukraine join NATO – the costs of expanding the Alliance outweigh the benefits, Justin Logan and Joshua Shifrinson write:

…strategy is about choice, and the United States’ choices today are stark. For much of the post–Cold War period, the United States could expand its international commitments at relatively low cost and risk. Those circumstances no longer exist. With fiscal pressures at home, a grave challenge to its position in Asia, and the prospect of escalation and an erosion of credibility vis-à-vis Moscow, keeping Ukraine out of NATO simply reflects U.S. interests. Instead of making a questionable promise that poses great dangers but would yield little in return, the United States should accept that it is high time to close NATO’s door to Ukraine.

This reflects the reality on the front line. The much-vaunted Ukrainian summer counter-offensive has ground to a halt, with the latest tranche of Western wunderwaffen such as  German Leopard tanks and US Bradley fighting vehicles so mauled that they have been withdrawn to the rear and the offense is now undertaken by small groups of soldiers with no air cover or armour protection. They are being slaughtered.

The Prime Minister’s segues in his speech are extraordinary. His resolve is “absolute” to supply support to Ukraine in order to defeat Russia, but in the same sentence the necessity to avoid armed conflict wherever we can is “absolute.”

It was humbling to be in the presence of these recent civilians who had joined the army to defend their country. Some of the men I met that day may now no longer be with us. Lawyers, teachers, builders. Husbands, fathers and sons. Innocents in a war not of their making. We will keep making targeted contributions where they can make the greatest difference.

But alongside that we must continue to fly the flag for peace, conflict resolution and disarmament. In a world rushing to take sides on a range of conflicts it’s essential New Zealand plays a role in avoiding polarisation – it’s what we’re good at and known for.

I have written months earlier about the dangers of  a drive for victory against Russia in Ukraine, and of the impossible situations in which these young Ukrainians are being sent to their death. I still feel that same as I wrote then:

In my opinion the truly moral position on Ukraine is to bend every effort to put stop to the killing and begin to negotiate an acceptable outcome for peace. That is what New Zealand should be calling for.

But its worse than that. Because they have run out of standard 155mm artillery ammunition, the US is now reduced to supplying Ukraine with cluster munitions, all of that calibre they have left in store. New Zealand is a party to the Convention against their use, and has protested to the United States through diplomatic channels. One hopes, to use the current mot du jour of our diplomacy, that this was done “robustly.” I expect however they will be waved through.

New Zealand’s so-called independent voice could be much louder and clearer – forget about victory over Russia, just stop the killing.

52 comments on “NZ’s Mission in Vilnius – “to defeat Russia.” Really? ”

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  1. lprent 1
    10 July 2023 at 8:28 am

    The prime minister stated in his speech last week our objective in the war in Ukraine was to aid Ukraine “to defeat Russia.”

    Exactly what is required. Russia can bring the war to a halt whenever it decides to withdraw back to 1990 borders.

    …the offense is now undertaken by small groups of soldiers with no air cover or armour protection. They are being slaughtered.

    I agree about the air cover and armour issue. But it basically shows your ignorance about military operations against strong defences where air superiority is unable to be obtained..

    Of course the Russian army has had exactly the same limitation itself, it is why they haven't been able to do any significiant advances since June 2020. Their stupid advance on Bakhmut displayed virtually no armour or air support as well because they have never managed to maintain a air superiority. Using dumb arse frontal assaults is just a way to waste soldiers. The Ukrainians show no signs of following that stupidity.

    Anyone who has ever actually been in the military is always aware that ultimately that neither air cover nor armour is useful against strong trench and minefield defences. It is almost invariably achieved by infantry except in rare occasions.

    Armour allows a break through to be exploited enough to cause a rout. Air is mainly useful at hitting logistics,. Or as Russia is instead mainly using it since they lost most of their intelligence operations in Ukraine, in pointlessly attacking civilian populations.

    Offensives against strong embedded defences always start with logistics operations to limit supplies to forward defences. Infantry and artillery operations to leverage open defences, typically across broad fronts to force defenders to be unable to concentrate infantry and artillery, and holding large shock forces to exploit any breaches. But mostly the breaches go around strong defences rather than trying to batter through them. No-one more intelligent than Russian command wants to try for another Somme or Bakhmut.

    New Zealand’s so-called independent voice could be much louder and clearer – forget about victory over Russia, just stop the killing.

    It should be not about rewarding any aggressor. Doesn't matter if it is Russia, US, China, Serbia, or anyone else. That was the lesson that appeasement of the type that you are proposing brings out of history. It only encourages more military adventure stupidity.

    For instance both Russia and Ukraine have been using cluster munitions extensively throughout their invasion and occupation. The only difference has been that Russia has had far bigger stockpiles of this kind of weapon which they have been using both tactically and strategically against civilian targets.

    I can't see you condemning or even pointing that out? Why not?

    Even the US neocons think its time to back off.

    That really is a weird framing. The neo-cons, including the ones you have referenced, have only been in favour of appeasing Russia since the start of the what was a invasion unprovoked by Ukraine. Instead they have always been talking about ways of dividing Ukraine up and throwing away its peoples future into a maw of again being a economic colony by Russia.

    Throughout history, neocons have always been great on appeasements because they're invariably short-term thinkers, and almost as invariably think in terms of great powers dominion and rights over other nations. They are good little imperialists. I can't think why they are worth you mentioning them in any discussion. You can pretty well anticipate their lines on any situation.

    • Dennis Frank 1.1
      10 July 2023 at 9:08 am

      You got that right re imperialist appeasement. I've been informing myself about Winston Churchill's life & political career, how he ran a medial line between conservatives & liberals. He was a renegade within the aristocracy, as often central to the empire as out on a limb. Chamberlain & the establishment believed in peace, so they got suckered by Hitler. Didn't happen to Winston!

    • Francesca 1.2
      10 July 2023 at 9:34 am

      Without neocons the whole Ukrainian adventure would never have started

      Victoria Nuland , married to Robert Kagan is about as close to the definition of a neocon you can get .And she played an enormous part in getting the Ukrainian situation to where it is today

      https://www.salon.com/2021/01/19/who-is-victoria-nuland-a-really-bad-idea-as-a-key-player-in-bidens-foreign-policy-team/

      Ah , trigger alert.the article was written by peace campaigners you know, those hopelessly misguided individuals (often uterus havers or those with a "bonus front hole")who dare to believe humanity can do better than greed , killing and war.

      • UncookedSelachimorpha 1.2.1
        10 July 2023 at 1:18 pm

        I'm used to russia supporters denying that Ukraine has any agency…but now russia doesn't have agency either and they invaded on the order of neocons?

        Weird world.

        I wouldn't refer to those who wish to appease russian aggression "peace campaigners".

    • esoteric pineapples 1.3
      13 July 2023 at 11:11 am

      "Russia can bring the war to a halt whenever it decides to withdraw back to 1990 borders."

      Shouldn't that be "Nato can bring the war to a halt whenever it decides to withdraw back to 1990 borders."?

      What sort of logic is it to expect Russia to accept having the United States military on its border? Would you expect the United States to accept having the Russian military on its Canadian border? All that Russia has ever asked is that Ukraine be a neutral country much like Austria is, and to enact the peace agreement it signed, that would have given the Donbas region autonomy while remaining part of Ukraine. The idea that Russia should have been a saint and taken these and other provocations on the chin is simply delusional thinking without a logical leg to stand on.

  2. Francesca 2
    10 July 2023 at 9:18 am

    Yep, I feel so proud living in a country where the PM is so devoted to the rules based order that has brought us Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia,Laos,Grenada, Libya, Afghanistan,Iraq, let alone the toppled leftist govts of Latin America and many more, all of which has left those countries living in a democratic and humanitarian utopia .War is such a blessing!

    For the literalists among us this comes with a sarc tag

    Forget about the abandoned arms control treaties, the never to be resurrected Iran nuclear agreement, the starving of civilians by sanction, the continued disgrace of Guantanamo(how many years ago as part of his first campaign did Obama promise to close the torture site?)

    All worth it to maintain the rules based order

    And if Hipkins gets a chance to speak to Zelensky or Biden , he will definitely tell them NZ disapproves of cluster bombs …promise!!

    What kind of poisoned thinking applauds the use of such weapons that the children of Ukraine will inherit by way of mutilated and lost limbs for generations to come,as can be seen in Vietnam today .Oh but Russia does it! and Ukraine does too..but they're running out.So lets all pile on and throw more carnage into the mix, sink to the lowest common denominator and lose our humanity in the process.Anything to fuck Russia and Russians up for the rest of eternity(which may be closer than we think)

    https://www.geopoliticalmonitor.com/vietnams-struggle-to-overcome-the-legacy-of-us-bombs/

  3. Tiger Mountain 3
    10 July 2023 at 9:19 am

    Even the yanks Anglospheric chums in 5 Eyes have signed the Cluster Convention…
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_Cluster_Munitions
    President Biden has green lit technology that demonstrably kills civilians and WWIII is likely that much closer. The billions and trillions spent on US militarism are resources denied to the American working class for health care, affordable medicines and restoring crumbling infrastructure.

    Not many if any of the interests of US Imperialism are also the interests of Aotearoa NZ (as distinct from trade and diplomatic contact between nations). AO/NZ should be part of an international initiative calling for a Ceasefire and negotiations.
    NATO (North Atlantic Treaty Organisation) attacked Libya numerous times as cover for US oil interests and now plans to move into the Pacific! Ukraine is a proxy war…which does not justify it from any perspective in 2023, it needs to be stopped rather than the meat grinder stepped up.

    Oh that there were as much anguish from the US friends and supporters over the Israeli occupation of Palestine and Indonesian occupation of West Papua to name but two long outstanding blots on humanity.

    • Sanctuary 3.1
      10 July 2023 at 9:38 am

      The Russians have been indiscrimately targetting civilians using terror tactics and using cluster munitions and mines of all types without restraint since day one of this war. They have visited a spiteful destruction and a form of institutional and deliberate military nihilism on the people and land of the Ukraine for 501 days. They've hidden behind their nuclear weapons to ensure the entire cost of their insanely unhinged levels of aggression is only ever inflicted on the territory of the Ukrainians, who are constanty told by smug pricks from the left in their safe western homes it is too risky to take the war to the Russian homeland, while they sit in air raid shelters and watch their cities get pummelled into dust for the simple crime of having the temerity to resisit a fascist bully intent on their genocide.

      Not once have any of you Russian toadies who whimper for peace and simp for Putin condemned any of this Russian aggression. Instead, you rail against the military industrial complex with ludicrous regurgitated Russian propaganda, inane whatabboutism and vacuos moral false equivalences. Your craven moral failure honestly makes me sick.

      What the f*uck is wrong with you people?

      • Tiger Mountain 3.1.1
        10 July 2023 at 9:50 am

        You can pull your head in too. I have written very little about the Ukraine invasion online, and have been clear that I am not a Russian Authoritarian supporter. I detest the number of commenters that make out they are some sort of military expert and treat it like a spectator sport.

        The working class internationalist position is “neither Washington, Moscow or Beijing”. It is an inter imperialist war, and it is cringe worthy when people side with “their” Imperialist power (usually the one advocated by a given country’s ruling class) against the others.

      • Charles Ware 3.1.2
        10 July 2023 at 12:38 pm

        I'm in total agreement. I am politically liberal and have been party to antiwar protests. That said there is a limit to what can be overlooked. Kicking Russia's ass is the only option. If the situation requires cluster bombs….. Russia shows Ukrainian children no mercy. Give Ukraine what it needs to thoroughly humiliate Russia and get this done asap. That will save more lives than pussy footing around the spoiled bloodthirsty little dictator.

        Charles Ware

        • Francesca 3.1.2.1
          10 July 2023 at 9:47 pm

          Yep Charles, humiliation is always the answer .The Versailles treaty shut the evil Germans up for good didn't it .No more wars from Germany after that aye?

  4. Sanctuary 4
    10 July 2023 at 9:24 am

    The idea that a just war can be halted by an unjust peace favouring the invader is nonsense. The Ukrainians will never accept it and will simply use any cease fire to re-arm to the teeth before renewing the war to free their lands.

    The best way to limit loss of life and end the war is to conduct it as violently as possible to win it as quickly as possible with a just victory, followed by full security guarantees (including NATO membership) for the Ukraine so Russia cannot, ever, try this sort of wanton aggression and genocide again.

    • Dennis Frank 4.1
      10 July 2023 at 10:01 am

      I share your view. Uncomfortably so, due to nigh-on 60 years as a peacenik. Naughty Vlad needs to be taught that Russian imperialism won't go down well this century.

      Naughty Joe ought to tell everyone that tools of warfare efficiency have merit on the basis of efficacy in getting suitable results, so he's blending in economic policy doctrine along with the tools. Naughty Xi uses covert engagement for plausible deniability, plus he must continue to punish the Uyghurs for being heathen deniers of Han supremacy.

    • Francesca 4.2
      10 July 2023 at 11:53 am

      Yep Sanc

      Let loose the dogs of war and go the US way of nuking 100's of thousands of innocent civilians.(apparently to save lives…American lives)

      I'm so sick to death of you death cultists and your urging on of NATO imperialists with the supply of more and more lethal , and less and less discriminate weapons.that kill innocent civilians.

      • Belladonna 4.2.1
        10 July 2023 at 1:03 pm

        "the supply of more and more lethal , and less and less discriminate weapons.that kill innocent civilians."

        Since the only innocent civilians being killed in the Russian invasion of Ukraine, are Ukrainians killed by deliberate Russian air strikes on civilian targets – your outrage would be better directed against Russia.

        Which has a long (very long) history of being willing to indiscriminately slaughter huge numbers of civilians in pursuit of their political goals.

        • Francesca 4.2.1.1
          10 July 2023 at 1:58 pm

          That would depend on how closely you've been following this conflict.

          Do you think when Poroshenko declared the ATO and sent armed right wing militia to the eastern breakaway provinces , he said "spare the citizens?"

          This is what he said

          https://newcoldwar.org/poroshenko-donbas-children-will-sit-cellars-will-go-school/

          And why would the children of Donbas be in the basements?

          Hiding from the bombs

          You think no citizen of the Donbas was killed from 2014 on?

          https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/world-news/alleged-war-crimes-by-ukrainian-authorities-militias-under-scanner/articleshow/91373384.cms?from=mdr

          The OSCE 's reports show otherwise.About 4,000 citizens killed, women and children , the vast majority from the DPR andLPR at the hands of the Ukrainian militia

          The bombing of Donetsk city has not stopped one little bit, it's intensified, and that's a lot of civilians being killed and wounded.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_2022_Donetsk_attack

          Note that the Ukrainians claimed Russia attacked itself.Like they destroyed their own golden goose and leverage with the destruction of the Nordstream pipelines I guess, or the shelling of the territory they were currently occupying (ZPP)

          • UncookedSelachimorpha 4.2.1.1.1
            10 July 2023 at 2:35 pm

            That first link is to Sputnik News!

            I did laugh when I saw "free thinker" defined as "someone who consumes a lot of foreign state media"

          • Sanctuary 4.2.1.1.2
            10 July 2023 at 2:35 pm

            I think Matthew 7:5 is suitable here for all the Kremlin lovers.

          • Belladonna 4.2.1.1.3
            10 July 2023 at 3:04 pm

            I note, from the link you provided, that even the Russians claim that 23 civilians were killed in this attack – and that the origin of the missile is disputed (neither Russian nor Ukrainian claims can be verified)
            Meanwhile – verified Russian missile attacks on Ukrainian civilians are virtually too numerous to count.

            During the Russian invasion of Ukraine, Russian authorities and armed forces have committed war crimes by carrying out deliberate attacks against civilian targets and indiscriminate attacks in densely populated areas. The Russian military exposed the civilian population to unnecessary and disproportionate harm by using cluster munitions and by firing other explosive weapons with wide-area effects such as bombs, missiles, heavy artillery shells and multiple launch rockets.
            As of the beginning of April 2023, the attacks had resulted in the documented death of nearly 8,500 civilians, although the actual numbers are likely much higher. On 5 July 2022, the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Michelle Bachelet reported that most of the civilian casualties documented by her office had been caused by the Russian army's repeated use of explosive weapons in populated areas.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacks_on_civilians_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine

            Waiting for you to admit the clear, unambiguous and undisputed fact that Russia is deliberately targeting the Ukrainian civilian population – a war crime; and condemn them for this. “Dogs of war” indeed.

            • Francesca 4.2.1.1.3.1
              10 July 2023 at 5:09 pm

              Has it occurred to you Belladonna, ever ,that war is a very nasty business indeed, no matter who appears to start it, there are no parties holding back in the desperate urge to win at all costs civilians be damned.I'm not having a bar of the bullshit around one party being innocent and the other evil, particularly in this case.War should be avoided and there were many opportunities for a peaceful resolution since the 1990s, all squandered.I'm not just talking about the Minsk agreements.the US arrogance after the end of the Cold War meant the US would continue to take every opportunity to fuck Russia up, and did.

              If NATO was in the business of peace and prosperity for all they would not have shut the door re Russia's entry in to Nato for one thing.For another they could have seriously considered Russia's security concerns.This has been the freight train coming down the tracks since the end of the Cold Wr if not WW2

              Many respected US diplomats , historians and Russia experts have said the same and advocated dialogue and diplomacy.Those cautions went unheeded and now the shit has hit the fan

              One of many:

              https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2022/02/15/the-origins-of-the-ukraine-crisis-and-how-conflict-can-be-avoided/

              Is this war terrible?

              Yes it fucking well is , its the behavioural sink of humanity.Could it have been avoided ?

              Yes, but that would have required the sort of diplomacy that vanished after the collapse of the Soviet Union and the rise of a singular superpower determined to maintain global domination

              Maybe you'd be happier if Churchill had got his way and nuked Russia before they got nukes of their own

              • Belladonna …
                10 July 2023 at 5:18 pm

                Still waiting for you to admit that Russia is the country committing war crimes by attacking civilians.

                • adam …
                  10 July 2023 at 6:01 pm

                  War crimes have been the standard from the inception of this war.

                • Francesca …
                  10 July 2023 at 6:03 pm

                  Wait on Belladonna

                  Both are committing war crimes, and news flash…war fucking well is the crime

                  • adam …
                    10 July 2023 at 6:07 pm

                    war fucking well is the crime

                    Well said.

                  • Belladonna …
                    10 July 2023 at 7:43 pm

                    Great, so you're finally going to come out and condemn Russia for starting the war (by an armed invasion of another country), and continuing to commit blatant war crimes against civilians.

                    I won't hold my breath.

                    Indeed war is a crime. However, so is suicide. And the Ukrainians have a lot of history with Russia making this point abundantly plain. Familiar with the Holdomor?

                    https://holodomor.ca/resource/holodomor-basic-facts/

                    • Francesca …
                      10 July 2023 at 9:45 pm

                      I find Jack Matlock (US ambassador to Russia)at the time of the Soviet collapse more convincing than you I'm afraid.He warned about NATO encroachment at the time, and for decades afterwards

                      He certainly wasn't the only one

                      So you could say the war started in 2022, but to my mind, it started way before.

                      And it could have been avoided

                  • Belladonna …
                    11 July 2023 at 9:31 am

                    Yes, indeed. Entirely avoided by Putin remaining behind his own border.

                    This is entirely a war of Russian aggression.

                    Plenty of other 'tensions' in the world, which don't spill over into open warfare (India/Pakistan, for one).

                    War requires one party to step over the line. In this instance, it was Putin.

                    Still waiting for you to admit this…..

                    But again, won't hold my breath in the hope of any balance from a Russian apologist.

                    • Francesca …
                      11 July 2023 at 9:49 am

                      None of us know anything except what we read and what we observe over time.Some read historians, others react to the news sources of both sides, we all come up with differing views.

                      I once overheard a retired English doctor I worked for saying to someone she was having a mild disagreement with

                      "You be comforted with your opinions and I'll be comforted with mine"

      • Sanctuary 4.2.2
        10 July 2023 at 2:06 pm

        You mean like firing a cruise missile at a pizza restaurant? You see, Russia is the one engaging in the indiscriminate killing of civilians. It routinely fires both precision and highly inaccurate missiles at civilian apartment blocks and shopping malls. Russia doesn't give a shit who it kills in it's fury at their defiance.

        These attacks are pure and simple war crimes. Not even at the height of the area bombing campaign in WW2 did the Allies target civilians for the sake of it, the aim was always to reduce the war fighting potential of the Germans. Hitting a shopping mall or apartment building or a restaurant with a missile when you have no other aim that terror and punishment is a war crime.

        A member of the Russian parliament recently let slip they've deported 700,000 children from the Ukraine, many forcibly removed and "adopted" by Russians – that is genocide.

        And what do you mean "let loose the Dogs of War????" The Ukrainians have been fighting an existential full scale war against a Russia that long ago abandoned any restraint short of nuclear – which they can't use because it is a NATO red line, and unlike Russia's red lines which fade everytime they are crossed NATO has the military power to destroy the Russian military at a strategic level, and given that Russia is basically a gangster petro state that would be forever.

        I totally agree, this war needs to end. But as Jackie Fisher said, "…everyone wants peace- as long as it is a peace that suits them…" and the peace that ends this war needs to be one with a just outcome – a Ukrainian vistory and restoration fo their national intergrity.

        • weston 4.2.2.1
          10 July 2023 at 8:02 pm

          What a cosy insulated world you live in sanctury you write : Not even at the height of the area bombing campaign in ww2 did the allies target civilians for the sake of it …. lol u gotta be kidding for a long time under the command of a real nice chap called 'Bomber Harris thats damn near all they did !!! He was replaced eventually by someone a bit more fussy about where they dropped the bombs .Also they pioneered the ' double tap' method of sending in another wave of bombers a certain time after the first to kill as many first responders as possible and frustrate attempts to put out fires .Look up the firebombing of Dresden if you want a particularly vivid example of allied cruelty .The city was packed with refugees at the time cause it was towards the end of the war and they knew the Russians were coming In the parlance of the time it was intended "to terrorize the civilian population locally and nationwide ".At school we had a couple of German teachers who had witnessed it sounded like it damn near lit up the whole of Germany mustve done cause if i remember right they were watching it from the alps !!

          • joe90 4.2.2.1.1
            10 July 2023 at 9:35 pm

            they were watching it from the alps

            A mere >500Km away.

            /

            • weston 4.2.2.1.1.1
              10 July 2023 at 10:12 pm

              Like i said joe was a long time ago lost your glasses ?

              the context of the comment was that it was a mighty viscious massacre of tens of thousands of civilians by allied forces which obviously could be seen a very long way away.

          • Francesca 4.2.2.1.2
            10 July 2023 at 10:15 pm

            Wiki has it

            Bombing of Dresden in World War II

            Wikipedia

            https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Bombing_of_Dresde…

            By now, the thousands of fires from the burning city could be seen more than 60 mi (97 km) away on the ground, and 500 mi (800 km) away in the air, with smoke

            and apparently it burnt for weeks

            • weston 4.2.2.1.2.1
              10 July 2023 at 11:29 pm

              Thanks francesca you'd think the one line of Poroshenko's speech which you linked to earlier …" Our children will go to schools and kindergartens your children will huddle in cellars " etc would be enough to make anyones blood run cold and speak volumes of the origins of this war but no bringing this up amongst many here will only annoit you with the label "Kremlin lover"

              You'd think the sight of sen Lyndsey Graham sitting in Kiev recently and by no means the first time ! with Zelensky and his cronies , receiving praise and gratitude for American money and weapons saying " Russians are dying its money well spent " would have given some pause for thought ?nope only "Putin puppets " noticed apparently !

              You'd think the dopey Europeans would have noticed by now that America is fucking them as well as the Russians big time by destroying their energy supplies and syphoning off their industries with promises of big tax breaks in the land of the free !!but no only "Propaganda Parrots "like me lol notice that !!

  5. tsmithfield 5
    10 July 2023 at 10:01 am

    If Russia being defeated was going to caused the use of nukes then they would have nuked Afghanistan.

    And, prohibiting the use of cluster munitions would be fine if the Russians weren't also using them, and the Russians weren't using also using white phosphorous munitions.

    • adam 5.1
      10 July 2023 at 6:05 pm

      Tit for tat war crimes, are still war crimes.

    • Francesca 5.2
      11 July 2023 at 2:51 pm

      White phosphorus is not illegal, its considered valid as a smoke screen .But it was certainly embarrassing for us when one of our Brigadier generals admitted to its use in Mosul

      Its really not meant to be used where civilians are present, which in Mosul they most definitely were

      https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/white-phosphorus-us-led-coalition-forces-iraq-injuries-burn-muscle-bone-mosul-humanitarian-groups-a7789431.html

      Our officers should have been nowhere near the action, we were supposedly only there for training purposes

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    • Francesca 5.3
      12 July 2023 at 2:04 pm

      And yet why hasn't NATO put boots on the ground, or as in Serbia, bombed Moscow for 78 days straight

      Serbia didnt have nukes?

      So it seems Zelensky has been denied accession to NATO because that would mean article 5 invoked and WW3

      “Biden says we don’t want Ukraine in NATO today because that would mean NATO would be at war with Russia.

      https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/nato-summit-test-bidens-unity-promise-rcna93330

      Well if thats the case whats the point of NATO?

      • SPC 5.3.1
        12 July 2023 at 2:31 pm

        Well if thats the case whats the point of NATO?

        So Russia knows who they would be fighting if they attacked a member – all of them. Why all the Warsaw Pact nations and the Baltic states and now Finland and Sweden want in.

        The purpose is to prevent war, the problem with Ukraine is that it has already happened.

        The UNSC is supposed to have a role maintaining an international rules based order – such as a defence of nation states from aggression. Nations were not supposed to have the need for security alliances to be safe.

        Of course while UNSC veto powers themselves invade nations without authorisation, and while possessing nuclear weapons, the UNSC has little credibility.

        The greater irony is the American willingness to defend Taiwan from China

        1. Taiwan is not even a country, Ukraine is a nation state in the UN.

        2. Taiwan is not in any military alliance.

        3. The USA recognises that Taiwan is part of China

        China also has nukes.

  6. Sanctuary 6
    10 July 2023 at 10:02 am

    One more thing – Russia is losing this war. The longer it goes on, the surer it is going to lose. The signs of the realisation of Russia's weakness are everywhere.

    Poland is doubling the size of it's army to 300,000 (plus reserves) and is already receiving the first of 250 Abrams tanks. It has ordered 32 F-35 aircraft. Poland intends to buy 10 to 12 billion dollars worth of weapons from Korea: 180 K2 tanks, 200 K9 Thunder howitzers, 48 FA-50 aircraft and another 218 Chunmoo K239 rocket launchers (the Korean equivalent of HIMARS). Within the next five years Poland will have another 1,000 K2 tanks and 600 K9 howitzers. They are on the cusp of order thousands of new Infantry Fighting Vehicles and they are setting up the ability to manufacture tanks, self-propelled artillery, infantry fighting vehicles and ammunition. Who do you think they plan to use this huge new army against?

    Just the last few days, Turkey released the exchanged Azov commanders it undertook to keep in Turkey until the war ended, agreed to supply the Ukraine with self-propelled artillery of the most modern type, and announced that if Russia doesn't sign up to the grain deal for this year the Turkish navy will escort the grain ships from the Ukraine. This tells us the Turks have zero fear of the Russians.

    Putin recently gave the go ahead to China to add the Russian port of Vladivostok as a transit hub for domestic trade supplies. since June 1, Chinese goods can pass through it without customs procedures. Xi responded by announcing that all Chinese maps from now on will replace Russian names with the Chinese ones as they were prior to the Convention of Peking in 1860. We know that all the Russian formations that defend Russian Manchuria have been identified fighting in the Ukraine.

    • hetzer 6.1
      10 July 2023 at 12:58 pm

      So many billions being spent on arms sales. You would almost be tempted to think the conflict was about money ( yet again ) .

  7. adam 7
    10 July 2023 at 10:42 am

    Jingoistic scum are rising to the top.

    Funny how the warmongering filth from both sides are striving to justify their sides war crimes.

    • In Vino 7.1
      10 July 2023 at 4:36 pm

      +1 adam

      Comment of the thread, I think.

      I remain unconvinced by constant, obvious propaganda.

  8. Sanctuary 8
    10 July 2023 at 2:48 pm

    The thing about cluster munitions, landmines and explosive area denial munitions in general is everyone agrees they are bad because they are difficult to sweep and clear, but everyone also knows they are highly effective weapons.

    The Russians routinely utilise the TOS-1 short range multiple launch rockets using devasting fuel-air explosives, as well as incendiary weapons like napalm and white phosphorous indiscriminately on urban areas, despite supposed tight regulation on their use.

    The thing is the Russians have already demonstrated the gloves are off as far as they are concerned. Short of chemical, biological or nuclear warfare there is no line they won't cross. The Germans showed the same intent with their attacks on Warsaw, Rotterdam and the Blitz on the UK in WW2. War has a remorseless logic all of it's own and if you want to start something like that then you'd better pray the other guys won't eventually be in a position to pay you back in kind and with interest because they sure as hell will and what is more you’ll deserve it.

    The Ukraine has the right to use any weapon it needs to defend itself, doubly so if the Russians have been using them indiscriminately for months already.

  9. Steve Bradley 9
    10 July 2023 at 4:59 pm

    I'll be diplomatic and suggest that Chris Hipkins has been mis-advised as to current U.S. policy toward the war in Ukraine. U.S. policy includes the following requirements:

    • To keep Russia occupied and reduce threats in other zones
    • To keep NATO united against a common 'threat'
    • To destabilize the Russian state, economy, and politics
    • To justify increased arms budgets while disposing of old stock
    • To gain intel from an actual (proxy) war against a world power
    • To 'partner' in Ukrainian 'development'

    Pursuing victory in this war against Russia will at best enter the archives section along with defeating Vietnam, Korea, Cuba, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Libya, et al., but just on a much bigger scale.

    • roblogic 9.1
      10 July 2023 at 5:25 pm

      America's (probably self-serving) geopolitics in no way excuses or justifies the criminal acts of Russia.

      This is a war of aggression by Putin so your analogies fail.

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