On the glorious dead

12 comments on “On the glorious dead ”

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1. Zorr 1

   26 April 2011 at 12:18 pm

   But… but… Eddie… if the Germans had won we would be speaking a different language…!  

   War is a waste but human life is also overvalued. The issue, lately, is that the wars we wage no longer affects the populace that supports the army so the only people suffering are those involved in the conflict. How easy is it to sit back and support a war if you aren’t facing conscription and are still getting tax cuts?  

   It would be nice to think that humanity could reach a point where war was no longer a dynamic but my feeling on that is it is as realistic as infinite oil in a finite world. We need to ensure that we only enter conflicts where we have a vested interest and that we are willing to sacrifice for.

   War isn’t heroic, it is a sacrifice.
   • odysseus 1.1

     26 April 2011 at 12:38 pm

     I think what you were watching was Gaylene Preston’s ” Home by Xmas” – based on the experiences of her father. And her father was relating his experiences of WW2.

     It is important though to distinguish between the mytholgising of the 2 world wars. WW1 was a scrap between imperial powers, it was a waste of life and soul, the main sequel to it being the setting of the scene  for WW2.

     But WW2 is completely different. My father fought in that war and it a clear ideological decision on his part and some of those around him to do so. That is, to fight for a better world, a civilised world free of of the extreme barbarism of fascism.

     So Eddie, I don’t see that has a waste of human life at all; a tragedy yes, but we all  know ( or at least we should ) what the alternative world would have been. A permanent death camp for those on the outer.

     Good film though !
     • William Joyce 1.1.1

       26 April 2011 at 5:47 pm

       Good distinction between wars.
       I had one grandfather who left small town NZ for Gallipoli to fight in a war between empires about who was boss. No glory for him just mental and emotional scars.
       For my other grandfather, while he was fighting for NZ in the second war against the country of his father’s birth, his own cousins were being disposed of in the best way that German industry could provide.
       So, I don’t accept the idea “All war bad, all peace good”.
       Nor do I subscribe to the “enlightened” idea that humans can and will move beyond war – we can aspire to being noble but, as the German’s showed us in the camps, centuries of civility disappear and we resort to our old tribal and primitive origins when there is not enough  bread to go around.
       • Colonial Viper 1.1.1.1

         26 April 2011 at 5:54 pm

         as the German’s showed us in the camps, centuries of civility disappear and we resort to our old tribal and primitive origins when there is not enough  bread to go around.

         Or when a ruling class needs a scapegoat or underclass upon which to leverage their own agendas.
          
         Since it seems to me that by the late 1930’s Germany was back on its feet economically and there was enough bread (food) to go around the population.
         • William Joyce 1.1.1.1.1

           26 April 2011 at 7:33 pm

           CV, I take your point on the role of scapegoats.
           I was referring to the dehumanisation process that the victims of the Nazi regime went through. They became de-humanised – all the trappings of culture, identity,education, jobs, family, rights, expectations etc are removed and you are transported to a world where you have no name, the “rules of the world” no longer apply, death is dealt out arbitrarily and your value is only one step away from fertiliser.
           In that world, it doesn’t matter how civilised you are, what your education is, what role in society you once had. You have been reduced to an organism that, in order to survive, must kill for that one piece of bread.
           That’s the acid test of our being “civilised” – will we kill for scarce resources?
           Hence my argument about war – what will happen when clean water becomes scarce? Look at the current wars to guarantee oil supply – Iraq, Libya etc.
       • Draco T Bastard 1.1.1.2

         26 April 2011 at 6:28 pm

         Nor do I subscribe to the “enlightened” idea that humans can and will move beyond war

         I’m pretty sure we will – it’s evolution. It’s just going to take awhile.
         • William Joyce 1.1.1.2.1

           26 April 2011 at 7:09 pm

           That’s what we hope for.
           But whether we can evolve beyond war has been the subject of much debate and sci-fi literature.
           If we evolve beyond our tendencies for greed, tribalism, irrational hatred etc to create a world of peace then all it takes to destroy that world is for a random mutant gene to produce war like humans in sufficient quantity that natural selection kicks in and all the peace lovers are impaled on spikes in their millions.
2. dave brown 2

   26 April 2011 at 12:23 pm

   The point of Lenin’s comment on the bayonet was that it needed to be turned so that a boss and not a worker was on the sharp end. We need to say no workers to fight in bosses wars. The only just war is the class war.
   • Colonial Viper 2.1

     26 April 2011 at 5:55 pm

     Ah thanks. That makes more sense.
3. Colonial Viper 3

   26 April 2011 at 12:49 pm

   Its been a continuing trend in an America unwilling to face up to their deep seated financial, political and economic problems directly.

   That is, to rely on patriotic and nationalistic imagery and jingoism to carry the day and to prevent any real examination of what is happening. Criticise the war in Afghanistan? No way you gotta be patriotic to our servicemen and women!

   Is NZ today the generous, compassionate, plentiful NZ that our WWII veterans dreamed of for their grandchildren and great grandchildren?

   Bet you its frakin’ not.
4. Puddleglum 4

   26 April 2011 at 2:26 pm

   I’ve had similar thoughts to Eddie.

   WWII is always seen as the exception to the rule (that wars are primarily about economic and resource issues). By the time Hitler was entering Poland he needed to be confronted. But, why wasn’t he confronted much earlier? 

   In Britain it was a National government that presided but which was overwhelmingly stocked with Tories. A government full of wealthy men who were, to say the least, ambivalent about the resurgence of Germany economically. Many, like Chamberlain, thought the Treaty of Versailles was too unfair on Germany. Also, the desire for empire was seen as perfectly legitimate (given their own, somewhat broken, empires) and not an unconscionable demand for a European state to make. 

   Far from the ‘appeasers’ being a bunch of lily-livered pacifists (I don’t think anyone could accuse any British Tory of that!) the calculation was one based on economic opportunities and the fear of Soviet communism spreadingversus the – perhaps unpleasant but bearable – attack Hitler progressively mounted in Germany on human rights and, specifically, Jews, Communists, the disabled, Gypsies, etc.. There may have been some consideration of ‘war-weariness’ but these were not sentimental men for the most part. Even Churchill was relatively ok about the appeasement policy until part way through 1938.

   By contrast, Labour ousted the pacifist Lansbury in 1935 and opposed appeasement by 1937 – partly because of the belief that appeasement was a disguised way of re-arming Germany as a bulwark against communism. (In much the same way, the West has repeatedly ‘appeased’ dictators since then in the hope that it would prevent the spread of the red scourge, inconvenient nationalism and the like.)

   That so many people ended up having to be thrown under the fascist war machines was, sadly, yet another example of how our leaders make these decisions on the application of the wrong criteria (i.e., nothing to do with freedom, democracy, human rights, ‘our values’, etc.).
5. Carol 5

   26 April 2011 at 3:34 pm

   The best thing we can do is not create a national myth around our  ‘fallen heroes’ but make sure we don’t send more to the same fate in the  future.
   

   Yes, it seems to me that it is a pretty recent thing to gloriy ANZAC Day & to relate it to national identity.  I remember the protests in the 70s. when it the use of the day to glorify war was challenged.

   Anzac Day was caught up in the protest movements of the 1960s and  1970s, especially around issues of peace and women’s rights. In 1967  members of the left-wing Progressive Youth Movement in Christchurch laid  a wreath protesting against the Vietnam War. They were later convicted  of disorderly behaviour, but a pattern was set. Similar incidents  occurred at subsequent Anzac Days as protestors tried to bring attention  to their anti-war cause.<

   Anti-war protests at Anzac Day largely died out in the mid-1970s with  the end of the Vietnam War. New controversy erupted in 1978 when a  women\’s group laid a wreath in memory of women killed and raped in war.  Other lobby groups – feminists, gays, anti-nuclear and peace protestors,  and Maori activists – laid wreathes at Anzac Day services during the  1980s.

   The day had become more than a commemoration of New Zealand war dead  and war service; it was being used to make statements about war and  society.

   http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/war/modern-anzac-day

    
   Still having problems getting the anti-spam word recognised, even when I refresh before commenting.

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