Open mike 01/11/2023

37 comments on “Open mike 01/11/2023 ”

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1. Dennis Frank 1

   1 November 2023 at 6:12 am

   As far as I'm aware, Labour & the Greens still haven't adopted women's rights policies. Winston is showing them how to do it:

   Gender issues

   Amend the Building Act, to require in the interest and safety of women and girls, that all public sector organisations provide separate, clearly demarcated, unisex and single sex bathrooms.

   Amend the Sport and Recreation New Zealand Act to remove public funding from bodies that allow non-biological women to be selected unequally against biological women.

   https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/10/election-2023-new-zealand-first-s-47-most-interesting-and-bizarre-policies.html

   Seems like sensible centrism, huh? Why is it so hard for leftists to stand up for women??
   • SPC 1.1

     1 November 2023 at 7:33 am

     As far as I'm aware, Labour & the Greens still haven't adopted women's rights policies.

     Only because you have not bothered to go to their sites and find out.

     The Building Act one is OK, but does not specify “what woman or girl means” so its careless and lazy.

     The amendment to the Sport and Recreation New Zealand Act has even worse wording … what does it even mean?
     • Dennis Frank 1.1.1

       1 November 2023 at 8:04 am

       Well I did assume that they would have publicised such a timely stand in the media since it has been a hot issue the past couple of years!

       Re meanings, I suspect politicians would rather follow a public consensus – and that would only emerge from sufficient public debate…
       • I Feel Love 1.1.1.1

         1 November 2023 at 9:39 am

         "Hot issue", bullshit. Aren't you always going on about "identity politics" & how that is "damaging to the left"? Jeez you're a shit stirrer sometimes. Well I bit I guess & I try to comment as less as I need to coz lifes too short than to be trying to get some lefties knickers in a twist about some faux outrage.
         • Dennis Frank 1.1.1.1.1

           1 November 2023 at 10:41 am

           Well I did disclose here (and reiterated once or twice) that discrimination against an elderly woman caused me to abandon my membership of the Greens a couple of years back. I don't agree that the minority rights of those pretending to be women ought to prevail over those of actual women.

           If you call that shit stirring you're evading the principle of minority rights, huh? I just want the issue dealt with suitably, so I pointed out that NZF (surprisingly) seemed to have the same intent. Why Labour & the Greens have failed to engage the issue, I'll leave to you for now…
           • Red Blooded One 1.1.1.1.1.1

             1 November 2023 at 1:39 pm

             How easy it is to demean people "I don't agree that the minority rights of those pretending to be women ought to prevail over those of actual women." when you look from a narrow, binary lens. Do you really think a Trans Person is simply "pretending to be a woman", you smug POS.
             No wonder this site is becoming less and less inclusive.
             • Dennis Frank …

               1 November 2023 at 2:33 pm

               No need to jump to the wrong conclusion: I pointed out onsite here a couple of years back when the issue first got hot that a user-defined public toilet ought to be configured in with the trad binary. The NZF policy seems headed in that direction, right?

               Fraud is considered distasteful by most people, even illegal. The rights of women threatened by this instance of it must be protected by our law. The rights of trans folk likewise. Separately!
             • Incognito …

               1 November 2023 at 2:58 pm

               While I sympathise with your reaction, I do not consider your insult of DF as inclusive behaviour.

               The Mods have been trying their hardest to find a balance between stimulating robust quality debate and keeping the site as inclusive as possible. However, all commenters need to play their part in this, starting with self-moderating their language in and of their comments.

               Please be conscious of the effect your own comments may have here on TS.
               • Red Blooded One …

                 1 November 2023 at 3:15 pm

                 I apologize to you and this site, meanwhile anyone struggling with their minority status will still be able to read that they are a pretence and a fraud according to DF.
                 • Dennis Frank …

                   1 November 2023 at 4:00 pm

                   Not the person, the behaviour. Many of us heterosexual folk have trans folk as friends or family, so we can sympathise with their difficulties.

                   The issue is public policy, which ought not to condone deceit. Trans folk must consider how threatened women feel in such closed-in situations. Being narcissistic instead is unhelpful…
                 • Incognito …

                   1 November 2023 at 4:19 pm

                   I genuinely appreciate your reply, which shows you took my comment in the way it was intended (IMO, the apology wasn’t necessary, as you hadn’t offended me nor ‘the site’ that exists somewhere inside Lprent’s electronic hardware and, as such, has no feelings or emotions).

                   FWIW, I struggle with DF’s commenting behaviour, and I will deal with that when I have the time.
                 • Muttonbird …

                   1 November 2023 at 9:20 pm

                   I thought Dennis Frank's comment describing transgender people as, "those pretending to be women", was highly aggressive and exclusive.

                   Followed by that old classic, 'some of my best friends are trans'.

                   Keeping the site as inclusive as possible is a good policy but transgender people reading Dennis Frank's comments would be alarmed.

                   A forum is made up of member comment and moderation. Sometimes not in equal parts.
   • SPC 1.2

     1 November 2023 at 8:20 am

     https://thestandard.org.nz/labours-womens-manifesto/

     https://www.greens.org.nz/womens_policy
     • Dennis Frank 1.2.1

       1 November 2023 at 8:38 am

       I couldn't find any reference to the hot issue in either of those – just looks like leftist evasion fakery as usual. One expects relevant statements of principle.
       • SPC 1.2.1.1

         1 November 2023 at 9:00 am

         So you are claiming gender identity is the only women's rights issue. A ridiculous position to hold, one suspects/should know the Women's Rights Party has a broader policy position than that.

         https://thestandard.org.nz/the-womens-rights-party/
         • Dennis Frank 1.2.1.1.1

           1 November 2023 at 9:16 am

           Isn't it obvious to you that NZF adopted that policy due to the hot issue??

           And the WRP formed due to the left parties neglecting them! Getting real about this is the point I was making…
           • SPC 1.2.1.1.1.1

             1 November 2023 at 9:37 am

             Most of the Women's Rights Party policies are the policies of the Green Party and the Labour Party.

             Just because NZF adopted part of one policy of the Women's Rights Party does not make discussion about it, one about "Women's Rights".
             • Dennis Frank …

               1 November 2023 at 11:01 am

               I bet Weka & the others who have written into here on that issue the past year or two do see it as a women's rights issue. I'm puzzled that you can't.
               • SPC …

                 1 November 2023 at 11:12 am

                 As far as I'm aware, Labour & the Greens still haven't adopted women's rights policies.

                 You were the one claiming this.

                 Your meaning was obscure, it now seems you are arguing that "gender identity" is the only important women's rights issue.

                 As for the debate you talk about occurring here, I do not recall any participation in it from yourself.
                 • Dennis Frank …

                   1 November 2023 at 11:19 am

                   No, the issue compounds discrimination and minority rights, and I still haven't seen evidence that either Labour or the Greens have yet grasped this, so it was worthwhile to report the evidence that NZF has!

                   Re the posts of Weka & others commenting on the issue, I do recall contributing early on & saying that women will have to form their own lobby group to represent their collective rights (a la Women's Lib in the old days). After that I left it to the women onsite here to sort out.
                   • SPC …

                     1 November 2023 at 11:33 am

                     NZF being involved is sport of funny, they swing from being mainstream centre (super, anti large scale immigration, anti affirmative policies for Maori, anti indigenous rights status – UNDRIP for Maori) to adopting causes (Talley's/racing industry/anti vaccine mandate and a few others of recent social media times).

                     "Women's identity" is one of the few that can come under both categories.
                   • Dennis Frank …

                     1 November 2023 at 11:46 am

                     I figure there must be another Tracey Martin in their mix. I agree their policy mix is all over the park. That policy seems to me like it could only have been pushed thro by women.
2. Dennis Frank 2

   1 November 2023 at 6:19 am

   Top capitalist anti-Trump takes a stand:

   Leon Cooperman, the hedge fund billionaire who has famously clashed with Sen. Elizabeth Warren over her proposed wealth tax, is cautioning voters against returning Donald Trump to the White House.

   “It would be terrible for the country if Donald Trump were reelected,” Cooperman told CNN in a phone interview late last week. “He’s a divisive human being who belongs in jail.”

   It’s rare for a Wall Street figure to make such critical comments about Trump, at least publicly… the billionaire has previously said he voted for Joe Biden in 2020 “very reluctantly.” Cooperman told CNN he’s not thrilled with the prospect of a Biden-Trump rematch in 2024, calling them both “bad choices.” Cooperman said he expects neither Trump nor Biden will be their party’s respective nominee next fall.

   Cooperman added that if it is a Biden-Trump rematch, he likely won’t vote. “I’m looking for centrists, not radical left or right,” said Cooperman, who donated to Republican Chris Christie’s 2024 campaign over the summer, according to federal records.

   https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/30/investing/leon-cooperman-trump-biden/index.html

   High time other influential Americans spoke out about the future of their country – recent years they've all seemed gormless.
3. AB 3

   1 November 2023 at 9:03 am

   Meh. Cooperman hates Trump more than Biden because he knows that of the two, Trump's chaotic, criminal, vulgar, proto-fascism is the bigger threat to continuing the neoliberal project that has so enriched him (Cooperman). That's because Trump probably can't win and takes the Republican Party off the table. Thus creating a better opening for Biden's timid efforts at ameliorating the worst cruelties of the project that has allowed Cooperman to wallow in wealth. If you are fooled into thinking Cooperman's pathology is 'centrism', there's no hope.
   • Dennis Frank 3.1

     1 November 2023 at 9:24 am

     He is quoted as saying he's looking for centrists! Centrism would only be a pathology if leftism were more credible, I suspect, however subjectivity rules that dimension.

     Given that the left parties betrayed the people by choosing to become neoliberal instead of socialist, I'm not surprised if he feels his wealth-creating enterprise benefits from both left & right govts…

     If you mean he's just being cynical, that's not the impression I got. Folks who take a moral stand when it seems solitary have guts.
     • AB 3.1.1

       1 November 2023 at 10:26 am

       There are no centrists in the US political system. Unless you are using the term "centrist" in an entirely relativistic manner, rather than in an historical or analytical one.
       There is of course a type of centrism that is better understood as ‘negotiation’ – mediating between different viewpoints. It’s a useful tool at times, but it’s not politics.
       • Dennis Frank 3.1.1.1

         1 November 2023 at 10:44 am

         relativistic

         Maybe. More to the point is the 40% of American voters who don't identify with either major party – so I use centrist to mean non-aligned – regardless how the rich dude meant it.
4. scotty 4

   1 November 2023 at 9:25 am

   Great piece by David Williams highlighting the malevolent influence of the Tax Payers Onion in NZ politics.

   https://www.newsroom.co.nz/chiding-in-plain-sight
   • Bearded Git 4.1

     1 November 2023 at 10:31 am

     Thanks for that Scotty-interesting indeed.

     Williams and Farrar are devious bastards. I'm sure the massive donations they received before the election (mostly from big donors and not from small donors as Williams claims-that is a lie) and the campaigns they paid for (3 Waters, Co-governance, anti-wealth tax etc) made a difference in the election result.
   • ianmac 4.2

     1 November 2023 at 3:03 pm

     Yes Scotty. A devious rotten bunch who repeats stuff with the help of the Media and in a insidious way persuades people that all is lost. eg

     Taxpayers’ Union headlines on poll-related press statements:

     Labour crashes and Winston's back
     National leads in Napier electorate
     National lead in Ilam Electorate
     National/Act could form government comfortably
     National Lead in Northland Electorate
     Voters torn in Auckland Central electorate
     Statistical tie between National and Act in race for Tāmaki
     Kiwis don’t believe Winston when he says he would not work with the Labour Party again
     Cost of Living Bites Taxpayers as They Head to the Polls
     Kiwis overwhelmingly support inflation-adjustment of income tax brackets
     Kiwis oppose Government’s plans to strip planning powers from councils
     • ianmac 4.2.1

       1 November 2023 at 3:16 pm

       I see that David Williams has posted the above report on the TPU as
       Part1 with Part 2 to come.
   • SPC 4.3

     1 November 2023 at 4:13 pm

     It's an upgrade of the Whaleoil/Kiwblog being assisted by certain beltway people to run lines/create stories for the MSM.

     That said it appears the idea of running a right wing pac "Taxpayer Union" (Citizens and Ratepayers) was a Young Nats dream (adapting a Tory UK idea) years before that.

     But the purpose was/is the same, create a campaign/message to the public for the MSM to notice. Obviously connecting it to a Free Speech Union (public comment on race, sexuality, religion and the threat of men consorting in women's areas).

     Then there was the focus on the Kiwi Iwi reprise via celebrity golfer Peter Williams touring the provinces on the Three Waters and co-governance TU dime.
5. Anne 5

   1 November 2023 at 10:11 am

   Chris Bishop is a prat – or should I say brat – of the highest order. And he's No 3 in seniority on their parliamentary list. What kind of effing idiots must the rest of them be?

   The thought of someone like this moron having any legislative jurisdiction over the population fills me with horror:

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/501414/chris-bishop-spoken-to-by-christopher-luxon-on-strongly-worded-email-comparing-hamas-attack-to-holocaust
6. Anne 6

   1 November 2023 at 10:57 am

   Seems to me to be a good analysis on the current political situation in Israel:

   https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/31/netanyahus-political-future-looks-shakier-in-midst-of-israel-hamas-war

   Netanyahu needs to be ousted – and fast.
   • SPC 6.1

     1 November 2023 at 11:46 am

     He was gone for a while, he was supplanted as PM by Barak, Sharon and Olmert but came back after the end of the peace process (2000) and its replacement the disengagement policy (this expired after Abbas allowed Hamas to contest the last ever PA election and this leading to the division of Gaza and WB).

     So BN returned, as the most well known opponent of the peace process, to run an occupation regime. Which is now in its most right wing form. BN uses Hamas to justify continuing occupation of WB and they use him to justify their river to the sea campaign.

     It is surprising Gantz joined the unity government without requiring the National Security Minister to be replaced first. And a commitment for new elections after the war vs Hamas is over.
     • Anne 6.1.1

       1 November 2023 at 1:13 pm

       Thanks for the reminder.

       It was always going to end in horrific bloodshed. God only knows what is gong to happen now. One thing is certain: electing ultra right-wing populist politicians is not only a danger to the countries concerned, but they are a danger to world peace in general. I guess that doesn't even need to be said.
   • Belladonna 6.2

     1 November 2023 at 12:15 pm

     And are you also calling for elections in Gaza – after all, there haven't been any since 2005.

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