Open Mike 02/12/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, December 2nd, 2018 - 279 comments
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279 comments on “Open Mike 02/12/2018 ”

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  1. Ed 1
    2 December 2018 at 6:41 am

    There is an excellent article over at the Daily Blog, where the conversation is about Climate Change, not identity politics.

    “I think we need to be honest with ourselves.
    Real action on climate change will require a political, social & economic revolution.
    Currently, the Greens & Labour seem to believe being carbon neutral in 32 years time is anything close to being a ‘solution’.
    Currently policy makers, too frightened to accept the realities of climate change, still write policy within the neoliberal free market framework that is exacerbating the climate change catastrophe.
    Currently one of the largest climate change gas emitters is running ‘Open Gate’ propaganda to try and pretend they aren’t the problem and are getting away with it.
    Currently sweet **** all is being done to prepare us for the adaptation we need to step up to deal with climate change.
    The truth is that the vested interests that create the pollution and economic framework that is making climate change the catastrophe that it is will not do anything meaningful to disrupt their interests.
    Unfortunately, we have run out of time to allow incremental change. I have followed the IPCC reports on climate change since their first one and the thing that is striking is that the worst case scenario is fast becoming the only scenario. What most don’t appreciate about the IPCC is that they are an incredibly conservative group and still don’t include many of the feedback loops that will make climate change faster and far more damaging, so when they say we have 10 years left to make the adaption, we are in far more danger than that claim suggests.”

    Read the whole article here.

    https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2018/12/01/a-new-political-movement-lets-just-be-honest-real-climate-change-will-require-a-political-social-economic-revolution/

    • Ed 1.1
      2 December 2018 at 6:42 am

      It presents political solutions.

      “Politically we need a radical Green Socialist Party. The Middle Class Woke Identity Politics vehicle we have with the current Green Party is a sad joke that alienates more than it recruits. While they bicker about reclaiming the word ‘cunt’ and deciding which pronoun to use for Trans gender rights, the planet melts. Building every Millennial micro-aggression into a war crime doesn’t do a fucking thing to combat climate change.”

      Read the 4 political recommendations here.

      https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2018/12/01/a-new-political-movement-lets-just-be-honest-real-climate-change-will-require-a-political-social-economic-revolution/

      • solkta 1.1.1
        2 December 2018 at 7:16 am

        and once he has his radical Green Socialist Party all he will have to do is find a country with a public prepared to vote for one.

        • Tony Veitch [not etc.] 1.1.1.1
          2 December 2018 at 11:43 am

          Isn’t that sand you’ve got your head buried in getting a bit suffocating?

      • WeTheBleeple 1.1.2
        2 December 2018 at 7:58 am

        Absolutely agree. Greens have been dragged into petty political bickering trying to prove how inclusive they are. Meanwhile those PC types obsessed with their (or mostly other people’s) pronouns are doing NOTHING to help.

        What I couldn’t stomach was the lack of gardeners. That is the first litmus test in practicing what you preach if you preach Green imo. The amount of so called woke households I’ve visited with nothing, or an average 1 m2 per person with a couple of tired lettuce and some parsley struggling in full sun and on bare ground…

        I have olives, cherry guava, guava, feijoa x 2 (types), dill, fennel, mint, rosemary, sage, thyme, cilantro, parsley, blueberries x 3, strawberries, black raspberries, red raspberries x 2, thornless blackberry, rhubarb, celery, celeriac, orange berry, tomatoes x 5, zucchini, manglewurzel, beetroot, silverbeet, blackcurrants, macadamias, garlic, onions, spring onions, chives, sugar cane, corn, asparagus, potatoes x 3, kumara x 2, taro, bananas, macadamias, plums, peaches x 2, figs, avocadoes, coffee, pumpkins, cucumber x 2, lemonade, lemon, lime, cabbages, cauliflower, brocolli. Then there’s a few nitrogen fixers, many flowers, medicinals… Then there’s chickens, and the bunch of food plants I would have forgot…. e.g. Coffee!

        So, when I talk about people starting a garden, I’m not talking about mucking around. You start small at your doorstep with herbs and greens. But the real deal is some years down the line having replaced useless oil guzzling lawns and landscaping with a slice of paradise. You get there by starting today.

        Trees are a vote for the future. They are a hopeful gesture. The amount of people commenting ‘but you’ll have to wait ‘x’ years’ for fruit is nearly all of them. Instant gratification will not save the planet. Gardening might. Big Ag is one of the worst polluters.

        The greens will get my vote when I hear more about CC than PC.

        • solkta 1.1.2.1
          2 December 2018 at 8:13 am

          What I couldn’t stomach was the lack of gardeners. That is the first litmus test in practicing what you preach if you preach Green imo. The amount of so called woke households I’ve visited with nothing, or an average 1 m2 per person with a couple of tired lettuce and some parsley struggling in full sun and on bare ground…

          You have visited the Green membership in their homes and done an audit of their gardening achievements??

          • WeTheBleeple 1.1.2.1.1
            2 December 2018 at 8:20 am

            Predictably you come to the rescue. Yes, I have visited many greens. Some garden, most pay lip service.

            • Ed 1.1.2.1.1.1
              2 December 2018 at 8:31 am

              Soltka is a troll

            • Dennis Frank 1.1.2.1.1.2
              2 December 2018 at 8:36 am

              I’m likely to renew my GP membership when Mercury goes direct. I do gardening most days. Pressure’s off for retired folk, but plants can spin on a dime so you have to be on the ball.

              I was trained by father & grandfather Frank, compulsory garden training back when kids couldn’t escape. Permaculture gave me a new set of skills to graft on, and I’ve improvised that combination ever since.

              Gratifying multiplication of pollinators in my second growing season onsite here (city/country margin, NP). Best soil I’ve ever worked, and more than I need. Only downside is salty rainfall, sometimes kills sensitive plants. I’m around two minutes walk up from the Tasman (high enough to be safe from a hundred-foot tsunami).

          • Robert Guyton 1.1.2.1.2
            2 December 2018 at 9:45 am

            I thought solkta’s question was perfectly reasonable – I had wondered the same thing my self – WTB says he’s visited an “amount” of “woke households” and I wondered how that came about and how large was the number of such households he had visited. What interested me is how different his experience was from my own where every green household I visit has fabulous gardens, productive and well cared for. Must be a regional thing, I thought and am not trolling by saying so, I reckon. Accusations of trolling get thrown around in a pretty ad hoc manner here in Open Mike on TS, I reckon allowing the actual trolls to blend in more easily, which is a shame. Let’s just save it for James 🙂

            • WeTheBleeple 1.1.2.1.2.1
              2 December 2018 at 9:53 am

              Maybe it’s a city thing Robert. Though I’ve seen a lot more gardening lately, but that is a general population shift via food prices it has little if anything to do with the Greens.

              I spent literal weeks knocking on doors getting signatures trying to stop asset sales. Doing this I met many Aucklanders and had many conversations. There were plenty of people claiming to be greens with nothing but manicured lawn.

              Be polite, take signature, move on…

              • Robert Guyton …
                2 December 2018 at 9:57 am

                Too much focus on lawn’order in the cities…

                • WeTheBleeple …
                  2 December 2018 at 10:11 am

                  Haha nice wordplay.

                  Personally I think US needs Schwarzenegger in power. To deal with the AI threat obviously, and then to kick some ass.

                  But he wasn’t nominated.

                  Americans, they have no sense of Arnie…

                  I’ve been wrong before. Maybe what I said is a nonsense in the South. My post was meant to get up noses. To illustrate the glaring difference between a garden plot to and a garden project that takes over the section. To do your bit for the planet… half measures are not enough. Lip service is definitely not enough. And I want to generate thought/discussion.

                  I don’t mind pissing people off if it generates thought/discussion. I also don’t mind being wrong.

                  I’m devious like that. You should see me teach I’ll wind you right up, outrage you, make you mad, make you laugh. And you remember…

                  • Robert Guyton …
                    2 December 2018 at 10:13 am

                    Ah, a self-confessed troll (new breed).

                    • WeTheBleeple …
                      2 December 2018 at 10:25 am

                      Doh, now you put it like that….

                      Think I’m testing the waters on communication also lately. What works, what doesn’t.

                      It’s a helluva conundrum. The notes I wrote on a talk yesterday I thought were most profound and thought provoking. Very little response only from Ed who originally posted the talk I wrote about anyway. Today I poke a jab at the greens and get people’s attention. Maybe this phenomenon is what is wrong with the news cycle, taking pot shots is more effective than writing that was actual hard work.

                      I do think you are on the right track with solution oriented posts however. The world seems starved for leadership, working examples, things they can do, actual progress.

                      I don’t know how ‘how to get there’ works yet. I’m just writing stuff. Waiting for it to start. There I will edit myself from being a provocateur. That’s what open mikes for.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      2 December 2018 at 10:55 am

                      Yeah, sorry, WTP, I’ve been rushed off my feet down here; tours of the forest garden, an “art bombing” in the village (beautiful), a woofer requiring tasks (potting up poroporo seedlings, planting anisotome etc. and a myriad of other things to do – plus grandchildren and a writing deadline (met! I wrote about Giant Hogweed 🙂 I’ll get onto “how to get there’ today and contact TRP as requested. It’s just that the weather’s been so nice…
                      Where do I find the notes you wrote…?

                  • Dennis Frank …
                    2 December 2018 at 10:39 am

                    Re “US needs Schwarzenegger in power. To deal with the AI threat obviously, and then to kick some ass. But he wasn’t nominated.”

                    When I first wrote stuff here four years ago I also suggested he’d be a useful president. Got a response pointing out that immigrant citizens cannot run for the presidency. In the constitution, apparently.

                    Perhaps they were paranoid enough after the revolution to imagine a royalist agent being sent over to the United States to become president and take control…

                    • WeTheBleeple …
                      2 December 2018 at 11:19 am

                      Did you both miss that AMAZING PUN? 😀

                      “Americans, they have no sense of Arnie.”

                      Experimental communication is my life as an Aspie. Honestly I don’t have a clue I learn the hard way most every time. Will never stop me trying though.

                      No hurry up required Robert. I was trying to say I’m still not sure how it all works is all. I think greywarshark is keeping tabs if we write anything quality here. It will happen when it does.

                      I’m struggling with what I’m juggling too. But if there were not so many balls in the air I’d be bored.

                      Mollison’s teaching always sticks in my head. Then I realise it’s all the crazy stories he’s pushing buttons and included sexual and graphic imagery on purpose. Because we remember that stuff. It’s effective teaching, maybe needs context.

                      Poroporo – I’d love to hear more on that some time.

                    • alwyn …
                      2 December 2018 at 11:28 am

                      Yes, it must be a great shame that they put in, as Section 1 of Article 2 of the Constitution

                      “No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.”

                      Arnie would have been eligible if he had been born a bit earlier and had become a Citizen prior to September 17, 1787.
                      Arnie certainly looks old enough but I don’t think he quite qualifies.

                    • Dennis Frank …
                      2 December 2018 at 11:39 am

                      Sorry didn’t get the pun. No reason Trump can’t make him minister of defense though. Perhaps offense would work better, eh?

                      However the mad dog seems to be working out okay. Trump was clever to combine his Putin-friendly foreign policy with a defense secretary choice that sent precisely the opposite signal.

                      “During his hearing, Mattis agreed with the assessment that debt was the greatest threat to national security. He placed Russia first among the “principal threats” facing the United States.” [Wikipedia]

                    • In Vino …
                      2 December 2018 at 11:46 am

                      Regarding the pun, I think you have to pronounce ‘honour’ with a strong American drawl..

                    • greywarshark …
                      2 December 2018 at 12:18 pm

                      WtB at 11.19am
                      Don’t know who Mollison is.
                      But you mentioned sex drawing attention to anything which seems universal.
                      Making being Green sexy, without distracting attention from the important matters, now there’s the rub.

                      I once bought a card with SEX in about 50 font size on the front and inside the words – Now I have your full attention!

                      But we don’t want to develop a one-track, horny-oriented types like Benny Hill do we? How do we make caring about being vital informed and socially connected people seem very enticing? This clip of Benny venturing into the community is rather instructive of what we don’t want; but with his own take on ‘gender awareness’ to the fore it seems appropriate at present.
                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTQTO1dj7qw

                      We want that to happen before it becomes obligatory, or necessary for survival, or too late to organise the people and find that the wealthy have secret plans in hand that they roll out to their own satisfaction and standards (which we know are not high and universal).

                      If we don’t wake up soon it is going to be like being Benny Hill here, very confusing and ultimately achieving little. We won’t end up with the pretty maids all in a row as he is hoping for.
                      (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJC4HvpWewM

                  • greywarshark …
                    2 December 2018 at 11:42 am

                    I am trying to keep up with you people, mainly you two WTB and RG. I am sure the dedicated post is a way to go. I will contact you through email site put up. I was always keen to hear more from Robert as having relevant ideas, and having created useful stuff, and willing to pass it on and inspire and inform. Very needed. And now WtB has come along that’s double-bubble with activity
                    and brain energy that mustn’t be dispersed into thin air.

                    This blog is good to give people a chance to think things through but a lot of our ideas have to be hung on the line in sunlight to freshen up. So those who keep on with the same approach and bat on, and those that sneer and get malicious superiority from having a go at these stupid or personal money-blocking lefties, greens, traditionalists, backward….. are always going to come and poop in the sandpit. Like cats they don’t know better, are just doing what comes naturally.

                    And for archiving – Open Mike hasn’t new entries since 2012. And there is a mixture of stuff on OM, and the important future-facing things need to have their own tag which always goes first, before the headline of the day.

                    Should it be a sticky tag that goes up first every day? Trade me on their Trade Me Discussion community board headings has one like that. Or on The Standard could people wanting to add something when the tag subject is not being featured that day, go into archives and add it?

                    But then how do you stop lamebrains from adding crap? Would we have to have some cleaners/moderators check these out like office cleaners emptying rubbish bins and cleaning toilets!!

                    • WeTheBleeple …
                      2 December 2018 at 12:01 pm

                      Some moderation might be required, but I’m the wrong person for it. I’m too reactionary on a bad day, and no real rhyme or reason when those might strike.

                      The very nature of the project (solutions based) might be anathema to trolls, or at least highlight them rather conspicuously.

                      I’ll try not to troll myself, again…

              • solkta …
                2 December 2018 at 10:01 am

                There were plenty of people claiming to be greens

                Right, so its not like you started from an actually membership list or joined the Greens and got to know the local active people.

                • WeTheBleeple …
                  2 December 2018 at 10:13 am

                  Oh do tell!

                  They were obviously fraudulent Greens, cos everyone wants to be one.

                  • Robert Guyton …
                    2 December 2018 at 10:15 am

                    I reckon the lawns were the tell that those folk, despite their claims, weren’t greens at all. You might have caught them in the middle of a role-play!

                    • OnceWasTim …
                      2 December 2018 at 11:27 am

                      I see my Green (mostly young student) neighbours in role play nearly every day. (I live next to a number of student flats administered by a slum landlord)
                      Their notional credentials as to being green are impeccable.
                      The only problem comes when they have to remember which day of the week is collection day or how it is they should minimise their waste, or what it means to separate glass in the recycling from other non-glass crap, or chucking their shit on the pavement far and wide on the way home when they think no one is looking.

                      And the behaviour is usually around the end of the week….. thankfully in Winter, it’s usually only on a Saturday, but come Summer when they truly flower, it’s Thursday through to Sunday.

                      As for my own gardening, much of that was destroyed when ‘green minded’ (design) students decided the best place to dump their chemical shit was down an overflowing toilet connected to a blocked sewer. All that killing what was finally beginning to grow after years of trying to recondition some toxic urban city soil.

                    • greywarshark …
                      2 December 2018 at 11:48 am

                      A role-play with a roller-mower? Is that like, practising at being a greenie? Then if people grow lawns are they Greens? Seems self-evident to me – growing, green stuff, making compost perhaps – nearly everyone in the ‘burbs is actually a greenie. What’s so special about the Greens then? /sarc

              • McFlock …
                2 December 2018 at 5:19 pm

                How often did you go around the back of the house?

            • solkta 1.1.2.1.2.2
              2 December 2018 at 10:04 am

              Yeh mate, lots of great Green green gardens here in Northland.

        • Muttonbird 1.1.2.2
          2 December 2018 at 8:41 am

          What about renters?

          • WeTheBleeple 1.1.2.2.1
            2 December 2018 at 9:47 am

            Good question. Some landlords wont even permit a traditional square of garden in the back yard. Scumbag gougers who charge you for expensive chemical treatments rending your yard an oil drinking poison repository, but it looks tidy.

            Some landlords will let you garden. And can even be approached for more ambitious projects. A friend in the states did such a good job the landlords paid him to do the same to their section.

            Container gardening is your best bet if landlords have zero but bills to offer you. That and get another landlord. Allotments are also available in some areas. Or you find land, other renters, and approach council for the land to use for allotments. These schemes only fall over when people fail to participate.

            The planet needs you to get your hands dirty.

            • Robert Guyton 1.1.2.2.1.1
              2 December 2018 at 9:56 am

              Kitchen-bench microgreens and sprouts for those who are really short of space.

              • alwyn …
                2 December 2018 at 11:51 am

                “Allotments are also available in some areas”.
                Are there any of these in the Wellington area, to your knowledge?
                I know that there are a dozen or so Community Gardens but they aren’t really the same thing. People I know who were involved have told me that they are often regarded as a free resource by local residents who simply strip the garden of anything useful and leave the people who did the work with nothing for themselves.

                • WeTheBleeple …
                  2 December 2018 at 12:14 pm

                  “regarded as a free resource by local residents who simply strip the garden of anything useful and leave the people who did the work with nothing for themselves”

                  That is unfortunate. Stealing food implies not enough money to feed themselves. Be much better if the poor learned to garden instead of steal. But thievery is very common nearly everyone rips off hotel soaps etc I don’t get it. Draw the line, don’t steal ever. They need some form of security I’d be inclined to place some strategic ponds to slip into, some cacti with barbed thorns, some with poison thorns, some that shoot thorns. A blackberry border, a decent gate, a security light, an angry dog that doesn’t warn it’s coming.

                  Make sneaking round in the dark there a nightmare.

                  Community garden/allotment: Excuse me sorry, the jargon I pick up is from all over the world and gets interchanged a bit too freely.

                  That said, I do plant fruit out front deliberately so kids can raid it. I hope it makes them want their own fruit trees. It worked for me those plum raids of childhood were magic, and now, my own big beautiful plum tree (hidden out back from marauding hordes of children).

                  • greywarshark …
                    2 December 2018 at 12:28 pm

                    Just a recording of a barking dog – on a loop with silence and then motion and/or light activated.

                    • WeTheBleeple …
                      2 December 2018 at 2:02 pm

                      Yeah that’s not a bad idea if it was activated by a motion sensor it’d fool you into thinking a real dog was on the grounds.

                      With gardening projects I try to design with pests in mind. Some of those pests in this instance are humans.

                      Shame that boxthorn is a rampant menace, it sure does work.

                      Here’s some historic boxthorn control

                      “Eventually, as machines such as tractors became more common good old Kiwi ‘Number eight wire’ ingenuity and inventive minds came into play. The first in Taranaki to develop a mechanical hedgecutter was Lou Butler of Inglewood. He stuck a Dodge engine on top of a 1928 Fordson steel-wheeled tractor, with a three metre steel propeller-like blade.

                      Later variations of the hedgecutter included several surplus WWII Bren gun carriers converted into hedgecutters and sweeps to clear up the resulting mess ready for burning.

                      Over the years a great array of ‘home-grown’ hedgecutters could be seen slowly marching their way along the district’s hedges. One in particular could have quite easily given small children nightmares. Bill Alexander from Te Roti converted a Valentine tank and named it Ruahine. Locals eventually got used to the sight of a huge tank trundling down the road off to the next hedge cutting job.”

                      http://pukeariki.com/Learning-Research/Taranaki-Research-Centre/Taranaki-Stories/Taranaki-Story/id/482/title/prickles-and-all-taranaki-boxthorn

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      2 December 2018 at 2:25 pm

                      The “barking dog” tape would work for a very short time only. Human’s are clever. That’s how we got to this point.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      2 December 2018 at 2:27 pm

                      I reckon exclusion and giving pain to, “visitors” to such spaces is doomed to failure. We humans can get past anything and when a barrier has been erected, it signals there’s something of value inside. Cunning ploys work better than electrified fences. Don’t plant watermelons or pumpkins in a community garden. They look like footballs. Even giant puffballs get there boot 🙂 Plant stuff that doesn’t look like food.

                    • greywarshark …
                      2 December 2018 at 2:32 pm

                      RobertG
                      I wonder if this is where mechanisation comes in. Lights come on the scarecrow sprays out that green insecticide Thuri…
                      and leave them stinky, easy to track with police dogs. And have an invitation to tell when caught as to how they would like to do something useful and help to take that up with some reward they would keep working towards.

                      And calling them lazy scum bags, is an oxymoron. The fact is that they have been doing something, not being lazy. They are being cunning Kiwis which follows in a long tradition of NZ behaviour which we tend to sympathise with, even lionise winners. Turn the energy and mischievousness to work somehow.

                  • BM …
                    2 December 2018 at 1:32 pm

                    That is unfortunate. Stealing food implies not enough money to feed themselves

                    Nah, Just lazy scum.

                    Far easier to steal someone else’s hard work than do that work yourself.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      2 December 2018 at 1:46 pm

                      Could be children, who aren’t able to earn money to buy their own food and aren’t fed well enough at home, but to BM, they’re, “lazy scum”.
                      Charming.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      2 December 2018 at 1:47 pm

                      WTB said:
                      ” It worked for me those plum raids of childhood were magic”.
                      BM responded as above.
                      Charming.

                    • BM …
                      2 December 2018 at 1:52 pm

                      Won’t be kids, stealing vegetables from community gardens.

                      It will be lazy feral scum.

                    • te reo putake …
                      2 December 2018 at 2:00 pm

                      “Won’t be kids, stealing vegetables from community gardens.”

                      In this case, from a Whanganui berry business, it appears to be middle class tossers with an inflated sense of entitlement:

                      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12162243

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      2 December 2018 at 2:22 pm

                      “won’t be kids…”
                      pffffffft!
                      Won’t be kids…that’s a very naive comment, BM.
                      No experience with community gardens then?
                      Or are you just using the discussion as a platform from which to launch the same old bile you often spout? The topic doesn’t really interest you, does it.

                    • McFlock …
                      2 December 2018 at 5:25 pm

                      “lazy feral scum”? That’s a bit harsh, BM. Get out on the grumpy side of the bed today?

            • WeTheBleeple 1.1.2.2.1.2
              2 December 2018 at 11:49 am

              This series might give some ideas.

        • greywarshark 1.1.2.3
          2 December 2018 at 4:43 pm

          What is possible with an organised tree and veg garden mixture. Obviously you can’t be digging into tree roots. But a circle around an apple tree – what diameter would be needed , it could grow mustard under and have it turned in to keep weeds down.

          In Taranaki there is that big westerly that comes in. Would you plant some tagaeste nitrogen fixers on the bounday to take the buffeting. Then perhaps some dwarfed fruit trees with room under for clusters of crops sown with time breaks.

          • WeTheBleeple 1.1.2.3.1
            2 December 2018 at 8:07 pm

            “What is possible” Sheesh, broad topic 😀

            Tagasaste sounds really good I had to look it up. Decent fodder crop and winter bee food as well as hardy, drought tolerant, wind tolerant…

            Coprosma robusta and feijoa are also hard and can join the wind screening among the Tagasaste. Get some Kowhai running too, seed’ll be ready before long… Get some bigguns and they can overshadow the tagasaste eventually making a higher windbreak if required. Over plant the nitrogen fixers and thin them out for mulch/fuel/to release soil nitrogen as food plants establish, but leave some to mature in the system. Coprosma berries are interesting to nibble on. Chooks love them. The foliage is cattle fodder, it’s fire resistant, salt tolerant… Cows are thick though, they have to learn to eat new stuff. Feijoas because wine.

            Behind the wind tolerant multi species barrier, go nuts! If you can grow nuts. And fruits… Include nitrogen fixers here too, maybe something more ornamental, and/or some ground cover. I like red clover, much easier to control than the white. I have various nitrogen ground covers I don’t even know what they are. I’m sure a farmer would know at a glance.

            Stone fruit trees all appreciate spring bulbs, the onion family, the carrot family, especially when they’re flowering. Always leave some to flower. You can lay out some mulch and plant into that with other things too. I try all sorts and see what works. Parsley are great if there’s clay to be drilled for shallow rooted trees like citrus. No root interference there rather a symbiosis, with shade in exchange for drainage and pest control. Put it right beside the tree and let it dig in and flower. Several shade and partial light tolerant species can go under trees, though a bit of low pruning can help where required. Kumara, cucurbits on compost mounds and let em climb the trees, especially thin nitrogen fixers that let in light, love those trees. Try passionfruit up one if you can grow it there. Sometimes beans and peas work the same way, sometimes not. My mate had peas in his manuka hedge last year. Not a great crop, but a crop 😀

            I try annuals out in a number of circumstances as they’re quick and easy compared to trees, then I lose all my notes and do it again the next year.

            If you are planning a fairly large planting and can get a landscaper to drop off a truckload of mulch I recommend you get it for mulching all trees – especially those you put in sandy soil. However, mulch won’t last without clay the sandy soil will burn through it, maybe too fast for the trees to establish. Add some clay to each hole, that will make all the difference. As the system matures it can make its own mulch.

            And never dig a $10 hole for a $40 tree.

            If you’ve got that rich black volcanic Taranaki soil – well yay! Put your fish scraps in a barrel of skanky water and water your veg with that. Keep it away from the house and with a lid That’s all it takes to grow veggies with bragging rights in Devon Street. 😀

            Robert would have some shrewd observations for tree systems.

            • greywarshark 1.1.2.3.1.1
              2 December 2018 at 8:35 pm

              Wow that’s a really robust report. It is great that you don’t know everything that you have ie nitrogen fixers. We don’t have to be perfect but have an idea seems that the way it is. I think we would all feel a bit more relaxed approaching things that way.

              We will get in touch all soon.

      • Carolyn_Nth 1.1.3
        2 December 2018 at 11:47 am

        It’s not either (climate change and class politics) or (social justice politics).

        Bradbury has become a social conservative and upholder of patriarchal values in his middle age. He spends a lot of time putting the boot into feminists and LGBT+ activists whenever he gets the chance. He attacks the #metoo campaign and basically any movement or campaign that challenges his privileged status as a heterosexual, gender-conforming male.

        I do think the Green Party could be more radical on many of their policies/platforms across social, economic and ecological justice issues.

        • Ed 1.1.3.1
          2 December 2018 at 11:53 am

          I agree – it is both.
          Only by being more equitable and less consumerist, shall we lower our carbon footprint.
          Capitalism has to be dismantled.

          • solkta 1.1.3.1.1
            2 December 2018 at 11:58 am

            I agree – it is both.

            If you truly believe this Ed then why do you feel the need to start with this dig?

            There is an excellent article over at the Daily Blog, where the conversation is about Climate Change, not identity politics.

            • Ed 1.1.3.1.1.1
              2 December 2018 at 12:02 pm

              Because climate change trumps everything else.

              • solkta …
                2 December 2018 at 12:08 pm

                There were two Climate Change posts here just last Thursday. If you truly believed it was both you wouldn’t start bitching every time someone wants to discuss something else.

                • Ed …
                  2 December 2018 at 12:10 pm

                  We should be talking about it every day.
                  We need to change the country’s complacency.

                  • solkta …
                    2 December 2018 at 12:24 pm

                    Well that really would be Groundhog Day. I’m wondering how posters would start each morning. Perhaps something like:

                    Toady we are just as fucked as yesterday. Nothing specific has happened in the last 24 hours to fix things. Regardless though it is important that we address this issue every day…

              • Robert Guyton …
                2 December 2018 at 2:29 pm

                Ed – climate change may “trump” everything else, but it doesn’t render “everything else” unworthy of discussion.

    • Ad 1.2
      2 December 2018 at 8:05 am

      Time for Mr Bradbury to put his money where his mouth is, launch this party he wants, and stand at an election.

      There’s a local government one coming up next year – that’s always a good place to start.

      • OnceWasTim 1.2.1
        2 December 2018 at 8:16 am

        Oooo @Ad. You are awful! But I like you
        ;p

      • JohnSelway 1.2.2
        2 December 2018 at 9:12 am

        He knows he’d lose badly. He threw his lot in with Dotcom remember which backfired spectacularly

        • greywarshark 1.2.2.1
          2 December 2018 at 12:34 pm

          Remember ‘disruption.’ Today’s norms need to be questioned and change prepared for in the business-driven world we attempt to find a living in. Dotcom is in the near past, but in that time large shifts have occurred. Bradbury’s experience over the decades may be more useful to us all than your certainties JohnSelway.

          Disruption is good for business. … Disruption is massive, rapid, and most likely permanent change, and that can be difficult to go through. But disruptive innovation is important to stay vital, and any business needs to embrace innovation technology and the turbulence that goes with it.Dec 8, 2016
          Why Disruption is Good for Business – IdeaScale
          https://ideascale.com/embracing-disruptive-innovation-why-its-important-for-your-busin…

          In business, a disruptive innovation is an innovation that creates a new market and value network and eventually disrupts an existing market and value network, displacing established market-leading firms, products, and alliances. Wikipedia

          • JohnSelway 1.2.2.1.1
            2 December 2018 at 1:08 pm

            Bomber is too much of a damaged brand. Outside of (even before) the Dotcom fail Bomber is a bit of a joke and isn’t really taken very seriously by, well, pretty much everyone.

            Too much of a shrieking politic hack who disdains millennials and picks fights with feminists on twitter.

            • solkta 1.2.2.1.1.1
              2 December 2018 at 1:22 pm

              His sense of fashion would be another major obstacle.

              • JohnSelway …
                2 December 2018 at 1:28 pm

                Mustard sweater vests with a tie and sports coat….yeah..

                He looks like he is on a fox hunt

                • greywarshark …
                  2 December 2018 at 1:55 pm

                  What vest do you lot wear? A high viz to make people look and appear as if you are doing something material for the community?

                  • JohnSelway …
                    2 December 2018 at 3:01 pm

                    I don’t wear a vest at all. While I own good tailored suits I mostly dress casually.

                    Suits for meetings, job interviews, conferences and court appearances 😉

                    • greywarshark …
                      2 December 2018 at 4:55 pm

                      No doubt you are not lumped in with BMs stealing, lazy, feral scum when you have court appearances. The Jewish people are often quoted as aspiring that their children become doctors, but it seems that everyone now is talking about becoming a lawyer.

                      That must be an advantage to citizens as we are sure to have laws at least. But then if they are bad laws then there is a lot of time spent interpreting them.

                      What if we don’t need all these lawyers? Then perhaps we could have some more civil engineers properly trained. If we had better training all round there would be more people in jobs and not so many needing the law.

                      Certainly if there was more ‘summary’ process of low-level fraudsters, and short sharp internments in jail for not turning up at the hearings, or paying their fines and recompense orders. we would have a less stressed legal and justice system.

                    • JohnSelway …
                      2 December 2018 at 5:14 pm

                      I don’t often need to be seen in court. Just one time some years back where I needed a stern telling off. But in my two appearances for something I did I wore a suit because I had respect for the office of the law. It would absolutely surprise me when I saw people before me and waiting outside the court would be wearing caps, singlets and flip-flops. At least try and look a little smarter.

                      I not sure why you mention Jews though

                    • greywarshark …
                      2 December 2018 at 7:25 pm

                      Cripes, i was discussing a norm, heard often of Jewish people wanting to be doctors, as the acme to aim for, but at the moment it is lawyers. And why would you query me mentioning Jews. Why is it that people seem, to look for details that they can build something on? Perhaps the comment was too long and no-one reads more than one and a half paras.

                  • McFlock …
                    2 December 2018 at 5:29 pm

                    I wear plain dark coloured waistcoats. People look at me funny. But fuck those guys, because I’m not building a brand as a politician.

              • Gabby …
                2 December 2018 at 5:47 pm

                If a fellow in a polkadotted bowtie and a poodle coiffure can get elected, I shouldn’t think a beige pullover would alienate the electorate.

  2. Dennis Frank 2
    2 December 2018 at 6:43 am

    Just following up on Ed’s report last night. The bomber has gone radical: https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2018/12/01/a-new-political-movement-lets-just-be-honest-real-climate-change-will-require-a-political-social-economic-revolution/

    However he’s done so without notifying his readers that he’s abandoning his traditional support for the Labour Party. Trying to have 50c each way, eh? Trying to seem like a traditional politician, in other words…

    “Real action on climate change will require a political, social & economic revolution.” Yeah, that was obvious in the early nineties. What took him so long to figure it out??

    “Politically we need a radical Green Socialist Party. The Middle Class Woke Identity Politics vehicle we have with the current Green Party is a sad joke that alienates more than it recruits.” Very true. Inclusion of minorities is essential – doesn’t require that the Greens have to treat them like a kindergarten forever though.

    “What few Green Party voters even recognise is that the current Green Party is built upon free market economics”. Total crap. Someone ought to call his bluff. Has he even read the GP economic policy on the party website?

    He then weaves a cocktail of policy that will have most imbibers spluttering: “this new political movement needs a populist economic manifesto that rejects free market globalisation and neoliberalism, supports 5 year economic planning, invests in economic self sufficiency and seeks real independence and sovereignty by rejecting open door mass immigration, foreign sales of our water and foreign ownership of any NZ land. We need to rapidly increase our military budget”.

    So the RGSP will be radical/Green/populist/socialist/non-aligned/anti-immigrant, with strong defence forces thrown in. He doesn’t say which country we ought to buy the weapons from – funny, that. Once he comes down from the acid trip and takes another look at this design, could be a time to consider the how of it…

    • OnceWasTim 2.1
      2 December 2018 at 7:20 am

      Can u xpand on his trad support of the Labour Parte @Dennis?
      Jiss curious

      • Dennis Frank 2.1.1
        2 December 2018 at 7:41 am

        Just the general impression I formed via his endorsing various Labour leaders and other blogging for Labour. I joined the first TPPA protest – remember thinking 30 years had passed since I last marched in one (springbok tour ’81) – think it was then I was standing nearby as Martin, the organiser, shook David Shearer’s hand (lead speaker). It was clear they knew each other and Martin’s demeanour indicated his positive support for Shearer. But I did do at least one other TPPA protest as well..

        • OnceWasTim 2.1.1.1
          2 December 2018 at 7:57 am

          Ok
          Btw….we probably need another interweb acronym (a la DNFTT)
          My comment was a question not a judgement
          Maybe /QNJ

          • In Vino 2.1.1.1.1
            2 December 2018 at 11:51 am

            If I remember correctly, Bomber has written several times that he votes Green, despite his fierce criticisms. Perhaps he sees them as the least of all the evils..

            • OnceWasTim 2.1.1.1.1.1
              2 December 2018 at 2:01 pm

              Indeed…he’s confessed many times to have been a vote Green.
              That doesn’t stop him from calling them out when necessary.
              It seems Bomber will shit in anyone’s nest when they go shitting in others.
              Whatever you think, better a world with him than without him.

    • solkta 2.2
      2 December 2018 at 7:21 am

      Sounds like he should be targeting NZF and getting them to improve their environmental and social policy.

    • gsays 2.3
      2 December 2018 at 7:28 am

      I see what Bradbury has written as more of a rallying cry rather than an absolute blueprint.

      I share dismay with some of the green party’s actions.
      I know it has been well debated, but the water bottling decision that minister Sage took was disappointing.

      I suppose to get the levers of power the Greens had to drop most of their radicalism, only to find out there is no access to the throttle or steering wheel, they just get to pull preset levers.

      I expect the clamour to get louder as we continue down this path of infinite growth on finite resources, as the $ accumulate up to fewer and fewer people.

      As an aside, how much pressuree is NZF placing on the relationship?
      How does a 5-6% party make Labour ditch it’s neo liberal roots and shift in a direction that will help us?

      If they are too much of a sail in the water, hopefully someone has the ability to call them out on it.
      Racing industry, fishing industry?

      • solkta 2.3.1
        2 December 2018 at 7:43 am

        How does a 5-6% party make Labour ditch it’s neo liberal roots

        It can’t, the best it can do is round off the worst of the edges. It is really up to Labour people to change Labour.

        • WeTheBleeple 2.3.1.1
          2 December 2018 at 8:02 am

          I do agree with this sentiment. While greens piss me off the blame for how labour is lies entirely with labour.

          • Incognito 2.3.1.1.1
            2 December 2018 at 10:25 am

            Blame games are a useful distraction and a good excuse for doing SFA. They also help to polarise people and dig ideological trench lines that are in reality minor but get magnified by MSM and others into Cook Strait proportions with stormy weather conditions.

          • gsays 2.3.1.1.2
            2 December 2018 at 11:36 am

            Yep fair enough, solkta and wtb.

            Probably got a little comfortable on the high horse/soapbox.

            What I was getting at was probably more about the not-negotiables the Greens had at bargaining time, what concessions they gained from labour.

            Possibly filed under none of my business.

      • OnceWasTim 2.3.2
        2 December 2018 at 7:48 am

        +1
        And unfortunately they’re still having to learn how to dirty their hands when it comes down to having to ‘pull levers’ (going forward)

      • KJT 2.3.3
        2 December 2018 at 1:48 pm

        I too was disappointing in Sage decision on water bottling, but I don’t see she could have made a different one under the law. Trade agreements, and the threat of litigation, are already affecting political decision making.

    • Ad 2.4
      2 December 2018 at 8:08 am

      Pretty stupid of Mr Bradbury to be mouthing off perpetually unsatisfied when James Shaw is in the middle of cross-Parliamentary negotiations to get binding multi-generational carbon tax legislation across the line. That stuff is hard work, and it is stuff Mr Bradbury clearly knows little of despite decades of ranting.

      How many countries in the world have actual Green Parties in government right now?

      The current Greens here nearly went down the gurgler last election, and they are making the difference that they can.

      • Dennis Frank 2.4.1
        2 December 2018 at 8:53 am

        Tempting to ask Martin what part of niche marketing doesn’t he understand, eh? I share his impatience by nature but to play the democracy game well you have to use the rules. Urgency may apply, but it doesn’t change the rules.

        Andrew Little was musing the other day, suggesting a combination referendum with cannabis. The 4% threshold option may appear there, as may the 4-yr term. If so, I’d expect both to get approved.

        The Radical Green Socialist Party, to get that 4% at the election after next, can only steal it from the existing GP support base. So the GP would have to get 5% from complacent Greens to survive. Not impossible!

        I have some marketing advice for the bomber. Action, Activism, A. It’s missing from his prescription. Socialists just talk & write. Adding this missing link, rearranging, we get Green Radical Action Socialist Party. Ready to GRASP the levers of social policy, and GRASP that climate-change nettle!

    • Gabby 2.5
      2 December 2018 at 9:17 am

      We will grow weapons silly.

      • Ad 2.5.1
        2 December 2018 at 9:19 am

        I hear the cabbages are revolting.

        • gsays 2.5.1.1
          2 December 2018 at 11:42 am

          The brocoli certainly is when it is pressuree cooked till grey, as was served up to me not so long ago.

          Still trying to get the smell out of the curtains….

          • OnceWasTim 2.5.1.1.1
            2 December 2018 at 2:10 pm

            The problems of the 1st Whurl eh?
            Mine used to stink of the local fastfood takeaway.
            Then I remembered….SURF and I had been together 35 years and things became really fresh again. It was transformational…alnost like COLGATE sinking in to a piece of chalk

          • greywarshark 2.5.1.1.2
            2 December 2018 at 10:13 pm

            I was advised by an older person at the supermarket that cabbage cooked for 15 minutes is about right.

    • Incognito 2.6
      2 December 2018 at 10:19 am

      MNZGA

      • Dennis Frank 2.6.1
        2 December 2018 at 10:54 am

        Too hard, even though the country’s name is obvious, so spell it out for us huh?

        • Incognito 2.6.1.1
          2 December 2018 at 8:42 pm

          Come on Dennis, use your imagination!

          This obviously refers to a Trumpian MO; the G can stand for Great or Green, whichever one you prefer.

    • greywarshark 2.7
      2 December 2018 at 7:26 pm

      Someone has to pick up the TOPS itchy voters and run with them.

  3. Pat 3
    2 December 2018 at 7:06 am

    “This demolition plan has polarized progressives between two camps. Some, reflecting on the brutality of the Washington Consensus, cheer on the challenge to international institutions, wishing them to crumble. Others, fearing the collapse of the “liberal” international order, leap uncritically to their defense.

    Both are wrong. To achieve progressive goals on a global scale, from worker rights to climate justice, we must reclaim the international institutions and deploy them to deliver an International Green New Deal.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/01/liberal-world-order-new-international-yanis-varoufakis-david-adler

    If its not too late

  4. ScottGN 4
    2 December 2018 at 7:14 am

    There’s a choice in the Herald this morning. You can read HDPA opining on the China relationship in her usual megaphone, once-over-lightly style or you can turn to the paper’s Business Editor, Liam Dann for a more nuanced take on the difficult decisions NZ will need to make (more likely sooner than later). The difference is telling.

    • Dennis Frank 4.1
      2 December 2018 at 7:52 am

      Yeah, HDPA had a formative experience: “The speaker at the lectern predicted what he thought would happen in the future. One day, he said, countries would have to publicly choose between the US and China.”

      Establishment frontperson tells audience that folks must choose between evil A and evil B. Media & mainstreamers go `okay, will do’. Everyone else goes ‘nah, not into evil, don’t be daft’.

    • OnceWasTim 4.2
      2 December 2018 at 8:08 am

      Ae!
      But let’s not be too hard on the Heather. There’s a Barry in control not too far behind

  5. Anne 5
    2 December 2018 at 9:23 am

    Further to the Maggie Barry affair. This from the HoS

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12169635

    The former employee claimed Barry asked staff to keep files on political opponents, including Miriam Clements, a Logic Party member who contested North Shore and believes the area should be completely independent from the rest of the country.

    Two bullies in the Public Service I came up against did this. Kept files on staff at home. A good way to ensure staff kept their mouths shut fearing what might be on the files.

    • WeTheBleeple 5.1
      2 December 2018 at 9:39 am

      I keep tabs on public servants. I also record every meeting and let them know I’m doing it. They walk on eggshells because after decades of their officious bullying I got wise. I also write and complain over every perceived slip or sleight directly to the person I have a complaint with so there is official record of their behavior and my expectations of how I am to be treated.

      Sounds harsh, but if you’ve ever been at the mercy of these !##$@^&#%^**^& useless @#$@@#$&# you’d understand, and probably film them too.

      They do not muck me around anymore. I also contest fees with companies and get discounts a lot. You think you are getting shafted – probably because you are.

      It pays to be vigilant.

      • Anne 5.1.1
        2 December 2018 at 9:52 am

        Not the point WTB.

        It’s against the rules for any Public Service boss to keep staff files other than the official personal files which every staffer has the right to peruse at any time. To do so, by way of a threat to staff should they step out of line is a whole lot worse.

        It worked. Everyone was too afraid of him to dare cross him. We should have collectively reported him to the PSA, but it was a time when the PSA had become too weak (after nine years of bully boy tactics by Muldoon ) to be effective.

        • WeTheBleeple 5.1.1.1
          2 December 2018 at 10:35 am

          I understood what you said.

          I say fight fire with fire. Always record public servants. Keep correspondence, bury them with their own BS if they try it.

          I’m sorry you worked under the auspices of a bully. Most of us have at some point. I had a gang member boss who singled me out as the only white boy. Torrents of abuse and physical threats daily.

          He was a public servant. And he was completely f***ed.

        • greywarshark 5.1.1.2
          2 December 2018 at 2:06 pm

          A few thoughts Anne. When trying to heat up the share rush in Oz in 1970s fake surveyor’s slips would be dropped accidentally in the busy lobbies. They would say that so and so claim had shown traces of minerals of the sort that indicated gold or whatever would register with the punters. Someone would pick up show it round his associates and the price would start rising. No-one knew where they had come from.

          In cases where there were problems with a dastardly manager, false information dropped, leaked, would be effective in raising awareness of the so and so. Anyone could make it up, and it couldn’t be traced back to anyone because it wouldn’t contain anything specific to the Department. Nothing could be pinned on anybody no matter how much suspicion there was. But it would start a focus on the person and his behaviour.

    • Ankerrawshark 5.2
      2 December 2018 at 10:38 am

      Anne @ 5…..

      Maggie’s attitude of entitlement comes through in terms of how you treat the hired help……..

    • gsays 5.3
      2 December 2018 at 11:45 am

      The files sound like the top drawer documents sir slippery eluded to.

      Hopefully this behaviour is going extinct along with the irrelevant politicians that practice it.

  6. Observer Tokoroa 6
    2 December 2018 at 9:44 am

    Difficult Choices

    Aotearoa lives closer to Asia than to Britannia or America.

    Both of which countries are extremely warlike. They have been for centuries. They both sell massive amounts of weapons to many nations. Neither nation has done anything for us in the last 80 years. Other than invite us to take part in one war after another..

    I find it difficult to trust or praise the United States of America. Greed is their core.
    As for England, it lives in its triumphant evil past. Good at Comedy though..

    The thing about Asia, is that it is very gifted and intelligent. Highly productive too. I think you will find it hard to overlook Asia when making your Choice.

    As for China, it loves to make useful things, little things and massive things, outstanding things – at low relative cost.

    They are not a warlike race, but they do protect the lands thay have always held. They also have some domestic regulations that we do not particularly like. They have wonderful Energy and Principles from way back.

    I would not count on Britain as a Choice for us. Nor their American offspring.

    • greywarshark 6.1
      2 December 2018 at 7:59 pm

      Observer
      I was thinking about Britain and Brexit, and that it seems the outcome of a giant stupid mishandling in accepting that close referendum and only people with more self-interest than basic skills at management of the country could make. It is as if the upper class Brits were echoing Trump and they ‘Wanted to make the Empah great again”.

      It reminds me of the irresponsible, poor decision by the British War Lords after the Battle for Britain. They and Churchill apparently decided that Dowding’s success had been slow and he had overplayed his approach in being careful with intensive planning to ensure resources were sufficient and available. They chose to believe that they could have dealt with Germany’s air force fast by setting up a mass attack, going head to head and finishing them off. They were in love with this idea and ignored the reality of their resources. It was easier to have aftersight.

      It shows that British pride and a belief in the romanticism of their gallantry and skill has driven them to embrace their nostalgia and go for separation from the EU. How does this place them in Europe then; do they go back to the 1930’s. Who has thought it all out away from rooms filled with alcohol fumes, cigars?

      Our partners in this part of the world? This is a talk from someone who has lived in China for some time. What he has noticed.
      (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuwSkVeCGOU

  7. DJ Ward 7
    2 December 2018 at 9:52 am

    Ed has a solution to climate change.
    Radical Socialism.
    He is upset the Greens have lost there way with Identity politics.

    I to think the Greens have lost there way. In internal battles the actual greens were pushed out by the radical socialists. This is because the radical socialists tried to find a home in our political spectrum, and over time captured a party founded on protecting the enviroment.

    Now it in the mind of voters it’s just a radical feminist/socialist party. Even good men in the party have walked away, the male voter is no different. While it proposes seperate courts for women’s employement. 50%+ property for motherhood, DV, alimony, maternity leave only, etc etc the party has cancer that will rot away until it no longer exists in parliament.

    Radical Socialism is not the answer.
    Voters want to hear. The Greens and company X have signed a agreement aimed at reducing emmisions by 50%. The greens agree not to oppose the project, accepting the project needs some environmental losses for the much bigger change to happen. The deal includes the company making small investments in unfunded green projects on an ongoing basis as a share of profits from the project.

    • Ed 7.1
      2 December 2018 at 9:57 am

      We need System Change, not Climate Change.
      If we are to mitigate the catastrophic effects of a warming planet, we must abandon capitalism.
      You can’t have a system built on the principle of growth on a planet with finite resources.
      We need a revolution.

      • DJ Ward 7.1.1
        2 December 2018 at 10:44 am

        If you abandon capitalism?
        How are you going to get a person to want to acheive anything. You are advocating communism. How about ethical capitalism.
        Who will invest in progress, answer nobody will.
        Who will fund the socialism, answer nobody will.

        Fail Ed.
        We don’t need a revolution. We need solutions and the political will to enable those solutions. Some think big, without a revolution destroying society in the process.

        • Ed 7.1.1.1
          2 December 2018 at 10:53 am

          You should read Naomi Klein’s ‘This Changes Everything.’
          And educate yourself.

          We need to destroy capitalism.
          And rebuild society and community, which capitalism has destroyed.

          https://thischangeseverything.org/book/

          • Ed 7.1.1.1.1
            2 December 2018 at 10:58 am

            BBC Newsnight’s Evan Davis interviews author and anti-globalisation campaigner Naomi Klein about her book, ‘This Changes Everything’, in which she argues that the threat of climate change should trigger a global movement to bring in a new, more just, economic order

            • DJ Ward 7.1.1.1.1.1
              2 December 2018 at 11:32 am

              Firstly Ed find a big cold lake and cool off for a second. You seem to think I’m ignorant and you know everything.

              She is saying what I talk about. Ethical Capitalism, not age of exploitation capitalism.

              Destroy is a vote getter Ed.
              Revolution is a vote getter Ed. Especialy radical socialist ones.
              Who’s lives do you intend to destroy in the revolution.
              Do you have the green solution ready to go. So when you destroy something you fix it as well.

              Have you built the electricity network already for your dream.
              Have the EV vehicles been built, have you learnt to feed the people without fertilisers, jobs for the sacked workers.

              • Ed …
                2 December 2018 at 11:44 am

                No, Naomi Klein is advocating the end of capital.

                Here she details how our neoliberal economic system and our planetary system are now at war.

                With global emissions at an all-time high, Klein says radical action is needed.

                “We have not done the things that are necessary to lower emissions because those things fundamentally conflict with deregulated capitalism, the reigning ideology for the entire period we have been struggling to find a way out of this crisis,” Klein writes. “We are stuck because the actions that would give us the best chance of averting catastrophe — and would benefit the vast majority — are extremely threatening to an elite minority that has a stranglehold over our economy, our political process, and most of our major media outlets.”

                • DJ Ward …
                  2 December 2018 at 1:07 pm

                  There is definately groups within Capitalism that have a lot to answer for.

                  Would a capitalist include a person who invests in a EV taxi service? With the intent to make a profit and reduce emmisions.

                  Would a capitalist include an inventor who risks his life savings on an idea to make renewables?
                  With the intent to make a profit and reduce emmisions.

                  Would a capitalist include a farmer changing to low emmisions farming while making a profit.

                  Should a person like Elon Musc be flogged into submission. For your idealism. His intent for ethical capitalism, his ideas crushed in the name of socialism or idealism or whatever ism your proposing.

                  I have a funny feeling Ed that that minority interest in Capitalism which you seek to destroy will result in destroying everything else as well.

                  If you can’t invest to make a profit who will invest in change?

                  As the 2 million Kiwi workers loose there jobs as capitalism is banned, what do you propose to do with them. Who now grows there food?
                  Collective farming?
                  Who provides the electricity, you have shut them down.
                  How do we get around, you have banned car production and sales.
                  How do I fix my home, nobody creates building products.
                  What do I watch, you have banned movies.
                  You made prostitution illegal again.
                  How do your unemployed by quality booze to drown there sorrows, you just banned Liqour stores.
                  The internet closed down, I can’t write letters to object as paper got banned along with Capitalism. Plus postal services closed when Ed banned stamps.
                  Since Knowledge with patents can be sold for profit Ed banned ideas as well.

                  • gsays …
                    2 December 2018 at 5:03 pm

                    You ask: “Would a capitalist include a person who invests in a EV taxi service? With the intent to make a profit and reduce emmisions.”

                    Yes, and yes to your other examples.

                    It seems like you lack the imagination of a future without a ‘profit’ as the means to an end.

                    Try sharing as a concept.
                    Not barter, not trade, sharing.

                    Where your neighbours need is your concern.

                    • DJ Ward …
                      2 December 2018 at 7:01 pm

                      How do you envisage everybody being the same?

                      Under the present system people share in a contract with the government. We pay taxes “share” and they provide services.
                      The sharing is organised. I might be happy sharing with one person or issue but not another. But I must share. I may see it as a person without genuine need or one with there hand out but never wanting to give. A may see a person who gets nothing who I think deserves some of that sharing. We all see it differently.

                      I think you envisage an idealism. That every person is like you in being a good and caring person. That unfortunately is not the human condition. Neither does it recognise modern society needs industry to function. How do you get areas with population crowding or food shortages to get some sharing. Do the urban dwellers have to go to the country every day to hope people share. Do you que up for car sharing day hoping you get picked today.

                      I share, I help strangers, I give things away in charity, I teach and pass on my knowledge, I pay my taxes.

                      What exactly is this global sharing culture going to be like.

                      It would be great to have, but how do we go from today’s society to your vision.

                  • Poission …
                    2 December 2018 at 6:58 pm

                    You are arguing about capitalism ( and to some extent liberal democracy )

                    The problem is not the now,but the future and the tyranny that arises from not addressing future problems such as AI ,where both jobs and democracy go extinct.

                    Borges (utopia of a tired man) predicted the end of government.

                    What happened to the governments? According to tradition, they were gradually falling into disuse. They called elections, declared wars, imposed tariffs, confiscated fortunes, ordered arrests, and tried to impose censorship, but no one on the planet abided. The press stopped publishing their collaborations and their effigies. Politicians had to find honest occupations.

                    Essentially government controls the treasury benches,which in the future (in principle) could see the finance minister replaced by an algorithm owned and operated by some obscure company.

                    Harari outlines a possible pathway to technology tyranny from the present.

                    in the 20th century, the masses revolted against exploitation and sought to translate their vital role in the economy into political power. Now the masses fear irrelevance, and they are frantic to use their remaining political power before it is too late. Brexit and the rise of Donald Trump may therefore demonstrate a trajectory opposite to that of traditional socialist revolutions. The Russian, Chinese, and Cuban revolutions were made by people who were vital to the economy but lacked political power; in 2016, Trump and Brexit were supported by many people who still enjoyed political power but feared they were losing their economic worth. Perhaps in the 21st century, populist revolts will be staged not against an economic elite that exploits people but against an economic elite that does not need them anymore. This may well be a losing battle. It is much harder to struggle against irrelevance than against exploitation.

                    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/10/yuval-noah-harari-technology-tyranny/568330/

              • Ed …
                2 December 2018 at 11:56 am

                George Monbiot explains how capitalism is destined to push us towards catastrophe.

      • James 7.1.2
        2 December 2018 at 11:19 am

        Never gonna happen Ed.

        Not in our or our children’s lifetimes. (Assuming someone bred with you).

        • Cinny 7.1.2.1
          2 December 2018 at 10:44 pm

          I’d bred with Ed, he’s switched on, intelligent and passionate. JS

          [lprent: Ummm we never put anything in the policy about it not being a dating site. 😈 ]

    • Puckish Rogue 7.2
      2 December 2018 at 10:10 am

      Well I’m sorry but I’m going to have to agree with you on this (sorry because as a National voter my support means this post will be viewed with suspicion 🙂 )

      From my side of the spectrum the Greens appear to be strongly red-green and the not the Green it claims to be

      Theres always been talk of a mythical blue-green party but for the mean time a true green party would be a good idea but I doubt it’d get off the ground, I mean you’d need a leader with name recognition (whats Kennedy Graham up to these days 😉 ) and decent financial backing

      • Robert Guyton 7.2.1
        2 December 2018 at 10:19 am

        Your National brain is giving you away here, Pucky; your suggestions for a “Real Green Party” are, get a celebrity leader and money.
        *sighs

      • KJT 7.2.2
        2 December 2018 at 10:30 am

        A Green party, is incompatible with National, and many of the senior Labour party Parliamentary wing.

        Socialism, and social justice are just as important on getting workable action on AGW, as are direct Green actions.

        Unless., like National, and ACT, you expect the less well off to pay all the costs, while it is business as usual for their bribers, sorry, funders.

        Therein lies the “pitchforks”.

        • Puckish Rogue 7.2.2.1
          2 December 2018 at 10:34 am

          Is it or have the supporters of the Green party just convinced themselves that this is so

          The Green party have shown that they’re willing to compromise their ideals and beliefs for power so why not take it a step further and see what National could offer

          Talking costs nothing and doesn’t guarantee anything so why not see whats out there

          • millsy 7.2.2.1.1
            2 December 2018 at 11:24 am

            Is National going to drop it’s opposition to clean and and water laws?

            No?

            Then forget it.

          • Dennis Frank 7.2.2.1.2
            2 December 2018 at 1:04 pm

            As regards the current govt, I’m with KJT. As regards the future, it’s wide open. The only obvious problem is the toxic combination of National Party culture and tradition. Since the former derives from the latter, the Nats are trending to the margin.

            About a year has passed since I saw an interview with James Shaw & he was asked about the possibility of working with National. It was probably before the election. He replied that if he gets an offer from them, he’ll give it due consideration. We’ve heard of none since then. Ball’s in their court still.

            It all depends if they try to work with NZF instead, and/or TOP. Next year they’ll have to pull one of those three rabbits out of their hat or go into the next election from a position of weakness.

            • greywarshark 7.2.2.1.2.1
              2 December 2018 at 1:39 pm

              National couldn’t be trusted to do things they talked about with apparent passion and truthfulness. They are so self-centred that they will manipulate, fudge, delay and deny. No party of integrity should be prepared to give them more than a hearing, for the sake of political intelligence. They have drunk the kool-aid and swallowed the hubris pill, and are willing to walk over hot coals to serve their ends and whichever power is prepared to carry on in the way that is increasing their assets.

              Reminds me of Sauron in The Lord of the Rings.
              25 Powerful Facts About Sauron – Factinate
              https://www.factinate.com/things/24-powerful-facts-sauron/

              Sauron proved to be Morgoth’s best lieutenant during the wars. This was partly because he was a shapeshifter, a sorcerer, and had control of dangerous beasts …

              Manipulating our financial system, that changes every day – very similar to the idea of sorcery, and the shapeshifter watches his or her image being broadcast to see if it registers well with the people being enticed.

              • Dennis Frank …
                2 December 2018 at 2:17 pm

                That capacity to shapeshift may enable them to morph into a better party. You get more nous about shapeshifting in politics from the practice of shamanism, btw, than from Tolkein. Even so, having read The Hobbit four times, first as a child in the mid-fifties, through to teenage years and fifth time as a hippie early ’70s, I’m not gonna deny his seminal influence!

                Best contemporary practitioner is, I suspect, John Perkins. See Shapeshifting: Shamanic Techniques for Global and Personal Transformation (1997). You may have heard of his best-seller Confessions of an Economic Hit Man (2004). I’ve got those and two more by him as well. Despite having blown the whistle on the US govt more loudly than Snowden or Assange, he’s still alive at 73.

                • greywarshark …
                  2 December 2018 at 2:26 pm

                  That’s interesting Dennis I am a book fancier and think I have Perkins about being a Hit Man which I got secondhand thinking it sounded interesting. I have only glanced at it so will have to get serious.

                  • Dennis Frank …
                    2 December 2018 at 3:59 pm

                    Definitely recommend doing so asap! I was too blasé, took me years to get around to it. JP is so worthy of respect I can’t recall any other American of similar stature. Remarkable man! Essential.

                  • gsays …
                    2 December 2018 at 4:45 pm

                    I echo the endorsement of Perkins Hitman book.
                    Heartily recommended.

                • Robert Guyton …
                  2 December 2018 at 3:22 pm

                  Ha! I have 15 copies of The Hobbit (it isn’t a competition!).

                  • Dennis Frank …
                    2 December 2018 at 3:53 pm

                    Does that mean that, like me, you thought it vastly better than LotR? Have a stack of copies to give away to those who haven’t read it?? I’ve only got the early seventies paperback and an original hard-cover with original art-work on the paper jacket (maybe first edition) that I found cheap in an obscure 2nd-hand bookshop some years ago. Fifteen is rather ott!

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      2 December 2018 at 4:57 pm

                      Be still, my beating heart! I’m collecting copies so that I can tutor groups of young readers through the tale and beyond. I’m trained and practiced as a teacher and found my best efforts were in topics I loved and with students wanting to know. I’ve already been reading The Hobbit to grandsons etc. of an evening, to be sure I’ve the pace and tone right for reading aloud – something I love to do and have had a great deal of practice in already, so when the children of families of my area, who have already asked my wife and I to begin a forest garden school, reach “hobbit” age, I’ll be ready. I’ve a range of copies, old and new and take pleasure in the variety of covers, illustrations etc. that exist. I don’t though, have a hard-backed copy 🙂 No matter, one will turn up. I’ve discovered trade me and the Tolkien section and have already purchased a couple of copies, though they’ve not yet arrived in my letter box. Last Friday I found a copy of “the Hobbit Companion” by David Day, which, while not the core book, looks interesting, exploring as it does, the derivations of the words Tolkien used: “hobbit”, “orc”, “ent” etc. Such things interest me greatly 🙂

                    • Dennis Frank …
                      2 December 2018 at 5:30 pm

                      Sounds like you could be a natural storyteller. You know about the Moomin books? Probably my favourite series as a child. If not, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tove_Jansson – tried them on my daughter in the early eighties & she loved them too.

                      Dunno if you’re aware of it, Robert, but there’s been a bit of a kerfuffle around whether Tolkein’s description of orcs is racist. https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/thepanel/audio/2018673444/is-lord-of-the-rings-racist-towards-orcs

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      2 December 2018 at 6:01 pm

                      I know Moomins, but have never cracked that nut. I think I’ve missed it. Orcs? Sure. Tolkien was an Englishman. Sometimes, we expect too much…
                      Do you know…Little Big? (Not “Little Big Man” 🙂

                  • lprent …
                    2 December 2018 at 9:03 pm

                    I have 15 copies of The Hobbit…

                    I have as many copies of The Hobbit as I can copy to devices from my Calibre server. It does seem to me to somewhat pointless in an era of digital copies to fixate on fire tinder.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      3 December 2018 at 5:51 pm

                      I’m determined to have a “class set” that I can hand out to students so that they can read ahead or read again, as we shared the story as read aloud. I like the signs of previous ownership too: personal dedications, messages from aunts and uncles, that sort of thing. Even the date stamps and “this book belongs to…” in ex-library copies adds to my enjoyment of the books. Plus hard-copy/paperback differences and all that jazz…

                    • greywarshark …
                      4 December 2018 at 10:33 am

                      Books are solid artifacts, skilfully made, creatively designed, beautiful examples of clever, imaginative minds. Treasure the books and the minds, they may be dying out!

                      Dennis Frank at 5.30pm
                      That mention about critiquing Tolkien and the orcs to discuss whether he shows with them a racist line brought
                      nit-picking to mind. And I thought about gorillas and chimpanzees going through each other’s hair to get rid of the pests. Perhaps this revisionism is human nitpicking at work? This is what we do, but with a negative bias rather than one of being helpful to each other and building community.

          • KJT 7.2.2.1.3
            2 December 2018 at 2:45 pm

            Don’t see any compromise of ideals and beliefs. I see Greens making as much progress as they can with the level of their vote, and the limitations of the system.

            I support James Shaw in trying to get a consensus. Otherwise we will see all progress against AGW halt, when the Government next changes in 2026.

          • Incognito 7.2.2.1.4
            2 December 2018 at 9:05 pm

            The Green party have shown that they’re willing to compromise their ideals and beliefs for power … [my bold]

            This is true to a degree but for the Green Party political power is a means to an end and for the National Party it is the ultimate goal in its own right and essentially a Faustian pact without a noble goal in mind.

            • McFlock 7.2.2.1.4.1
              2 December 2018 at 9:07 pm

              Well put.

            • Puckish Rogue 7.2.2.1.4.2
              2 December 2018 at 9:09 pm

              So you get it in writing…and not trust another party to negotiate for you

              • McFlock …
                2 December 2018 at 9:32 pm

                Some sort of written memorandum just to make sure both parties understand their respective positions and areas of cooperation?

                Good idea. The Greens and Labour should do that sometime lol

      • Anne 7.2.3
        2 December 2018 at 10:31 am

        There’s a bit of sense there PR. CC is the greatest threat ever to face mankind and requires non-political direction because it is not a political matter. That is the trap way too many people have fallen into over the decades.

        We need a governing body outside of the main political parties specifically for making the hard decisions required to play our part in combating CC and a statute requiring the government of the day to implement those decisions.

        Sounds too hard? I don’t think so. There are a number of people well versed in Climate science and other necessary spheres of activity who are highly regarded by all political parties. Kennedy Graham could well be one of them. I guess it would be appropriate for each political party to have one of their members assigned to this governing body but they would not wield any more power than the other members.

        • KJT 7.2.3.1
          2 December 2018 at 10:34 am

          Sustainability in resource use, addressing climate change, is not going to happen, without sustainability in our society.

          Unfortunately for the right wing, present day capitalism and constant growth, is incompatible, with the survival of human civilisation.

        • Puckish Rogue 7.2.3.2
          2 December 2018 at 10:37 am

          I only mention Kennedy because he seems to be really intelligent and able to facilitate cross party cooperation

          Just seems a shame someone like him isn’t where he could, or should, be

          • KJT 7.2.3.2.1
            2 December 2018 at 2:38 pm

            A compromiser, you mean?

            One of the comfortable middle class, who think that action to prevent AGW consists of buying an electric car and banning plastic bags, the rest is business as usual while, other people bear the cost of change.

            Like National’s “Blue Greens”..

            Deliberately ignoring the fact that it is the “comfortable” who are responsible for most resource use, and emissions. Those of us who are “comfortable” and well off, have to drop some of our standard of living, such as jet flights overseas, horrors! So that the rest can survive.

        • WeTheBleeple 7.2.3.3
          2 December 2018 at 10:39 am

          “requires non-political direction because it is not a political matter. That is the trap way too many people have fallen into over the decades”

          Guilty as charged. Very thought provoking, thank you.

    • solkta 7.3
      2 December 2018 at 10:28 am

      This is because the radical socialists tried to find a home in our political spectrum, and over time captured a party founded on protecting the enviroment.

      This is simply not true. The Green Party has always cared about people as well as planet and grew out of the Values Party who also cared about people as well as planet.

      If you don’t like the Greens then fine, but please don’t tell lies about them.

    • KJT 7.4
      2 December 2018 at 10:32 am

      Greens are hardly “radical socialists”. Being slightly to the left of Kieth Holyoak, who, I would suspect is turning in his grave over the present day National party.

      • Puckish Rogue 7.4.1
        2 December 2018 at 10:39 am

        Funnily enough I’ve always wondered what the leaders of parties from ye olde times would think of their parties today and where the disconnect (if any) started

        • KJT 7.4.1.1
          2 December 2018 at 9:28 pm

          MJ Savage and Kirk, not to mention JA Lee, who was never a Prime Minister but was a huge influence on the founders of our welfare State, I suspect would have been very upset with 1980’s to 2017 Labour. Especially the capture of the party, by ACT, in the 80’s.

          Massey, et al. would be at home with present day National. Making it illegal to feed the families of striking workers, and sending farmers on horse back to beat up demonstrators. Many National backbenchers want those days back.

          Muldoon was, of course rightly horrified, at the criminal devaluation of the dollar forced on him, and the fire sale of assets, which followed.

  8. Ad 8
    2 December 2018 at 10:25 am

    New Zealand Under 17 women are third in the world at football.

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/football/nz-teams/109024022/new-zealand-beat-canada-to-bronze-at-fifa-under17-womens-world-cup

    First goal gained in 15 seconds.

    Across so many out our national teams, the women are growing in stature and in rank.

    Just maybe this is the new era for women and sport.

    • Antoine 8.1
      2 December 2018 at 10:27 am

      NZ womens’ sport is great

      Something to be proud of

      A.

      • Drowsy M. Kram 8.1.1
        2 December 2018 at 11:47 am

        NZ womens’ sport may be ‘great’ entertainment/recreation, but is it carbon neutral?

        • Ad 8.1.1.1
          2 December 2018 at 12:01 pm

          Those wretched things keep breathing out carbon dioxide

        • Antoine 8.1.1.2
          2 December 2018 at 12:25 pm

          > NZ womens’ sport may be ‘great’ entertainment/recreation, but is it carbon neutral?

          I don’t care!!

          A.

        • greywarshark 8.1.1.3
          2 December 2018 at 1:30 pm

          It is a job, and valuable to be able to do something well, and we should be prepared to pay for that. Jobs for humans, doing human things, that is what we need and right now. Even if we all spend half our time in the garden, and maintenance of our own resources, and the other half at our skilled jobs we might make it through. Let’s go and talk to Maori from this pov and the Aborigines who managed to live in an environment when it was harsh, and know the places where they could find seasonal living environments.

          • solkta 8.1.1.3.1
            2 December 2018 at 1:44 pm

            Not sure who you mean by “we” but i certainly don’t want to pay people to play sport. If people want to pay to watch it then that’s up to them.

            The Maori population before European contact has been estimated at 100 to 200,000. I don’t think things work the same with 4,000,000.

            • greywarshark 8.1.1.3.1.1
              2 December 2018 at 2:13 pm

              solkta
              I don’t want to pay you eventually or now, to sit around and type comments on how you don’t want to think about the future for other people and don’t want to be part of a working community that everyone adds to in a positive way.

              • solkta …
                2 December 2018 at 2:29 pm

                If we had a UBI and individuals chose to be poor and play sport then then that is one thing, but specifically paying people to play sport is another.

                I haven’t asked you to pay me and you don’t.

                • greywarshark …
                  2 December 2018 at 4:21 pm

                  Oh good then you aren’t on an old age pension. I hope you are a useful, co-operative member of society because I don’t hear much in the way of positives on here.

          • joe90 8.1.1.3.2
            2 December 2018 at 2:40 pm

            talk to Maori from this pov

            Games and competitions featured large in pre-european Māori life.

            https://teara.govt.nz/en/traditional-maori-games-nga-takaro/page-1

            http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-BesGame-t1-body-d1.html

            • greywarshark 8.1.1.3.2.1
              2 December 2018 at 4:31 pm

              And you will notice that I talked about divisions in lifestyles, for the self-sustaining capable person and whanau. Maori had been managing that for many centuries and were able to help many new white settlers, before
              the incomers took advantage and tried to get hold of more land.

              People need to recognise that there were real estate gougers then as now, and they had to get hold of land to hand to the people who had bought it London often bad faith contracts, which meant that it was fraud. When they were on their way to claim these purported plots it would become highly stressful for the hucksters. So tip Maori off the land somehow, anyhow, pay them a small recompense, and pocket the profit.

              Maori have survived even if unhappily, and it is time we learned from them.

  9. Dennis Frank 9
    2 December 2018 at 11:08 am

    BBC news: “Mexico’s López Obrador pledges ‘radical’ change”. But Obrador the radical is being sensible…

    “Obrador’s administration inherits a crisis caused by a recent surge of migrant caravans of mostly Central American nationals, fleeing poverty and violence in their home nations and flooding into Mexico to try to reach the US. To try to curb these migrant flows, Mr López Obrador has proposed an ambitious co-operation scheme involving Mexico, Canada, and the US that would pump aid and investment into Central America to create jobs and raise living standards.” https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-46404650

    “I have spoken on two occasions with Trump [since the presidential election] and he has sent a delegation [to Mexico] and there are ongoing negotiations, and I must recognise that he has given us respectful treatment. You will see how we will maintain a good relationship with the US government,” he said in a recent press conference. And another consequence was announced late last week.

    “President Trump and his Mexican and Canadian counterparts sought to put the acrimony of the past two years behind them on Friday as they signed a new trade agreement governing hundreds of billions of dollars in commerce that underpins their mutually dependent economies.”

    “Meeting for the first time since the revised North American Free Trade Agreement was sealed, Mr. Trump, President Enrique Peña Nieto of Mexico and Prime Minister Justin Trudeau of Canada hailed the results as a boon for workers, businesses and the environment”. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/30/world/americas/trump-trudeau-canada-mexico.html

    • DJ Ward 9.1
      2 December 2018 at 9:42 pm

      Trump sure does know how to get things done. I like it when a politician sees some bullshit and is willing to say it. The fact he made it clear he wouldn’t tolerate unfair trade anymore resulted in all three parties attempting to make things fair. If he didn’t throw his toys out of the cot nothing would have happened.

      China is already under pressure and they too trade unfairly with the US, and pretty much everybody else.
      The EU is no better. Africa would be a different place if trade barriers weren’t in place. Plus French wine, which RT tested as second to US wine.

      • McFlock 9.1.1
        2 December 2018 at 9:48 pm

        RT are oenophiles, now?

        • DJ Ward 9.1.1.1
          2 December 2018 at 10:02 pm

          Nah, I just watched them do some random (hopefully) blind testing in Paris and the locals picked the US wine. In response to Trump taking a swipe at the moron Nationalism comment, with French trade protectionism on wine.

          I did have to look up that word, so thanks McFlock, I learnt something.

          • McFlock 9.1.1.1.1
            2 December 2018 at 10:18 pm

            Got some mates who are really into it.

            The yanks do make some good wines. And some French wines are complete crap. Seems more like an RT wind-up than a (brave) call that one contry has better wine than another.

  10. millsy 10
    2 December 2018 at 11:22 am

    So how do we stop climate change without adopting an Amish-like lifestyle? No one has bee able to provide an answer to that question.

    I don’t fancy going back to the days of horse and cart, or adopting anarcho-primitivism. England, circa 1456 isn’t the ideal life style in my opinion.

    • Bill 10.1
      2 December 2018 at 11:53 am

      We stop climate change by dropping fossil and adapting our ways of doing things to the new fossil free environment we’ll have created.

      I can’t see what “Amish” or anarcho-primitivism or England crica 1456 has to do with anything.

      Do you think humanity will somehow lose medical knowledge, engineering know-how or any accumulated scientific knowledge or agricultural ken just because we bin fossil?

      I can see how all that and much more will likely be lost if we attempt to adapt to an environment raked by climate change rather than one absent fossil. In fact, I can see how not getting rid of fossil could make Amish and England circa 1456 look like unattainable goals.

    • gsays 10.2
      2 December 2018 at 11:55 am

      What is it about the Amish way you are apprehensive about?

      Is the thought of a lack of something?

      I reckon a mix of how Maori were getting on, with a mix of technology that the settlers bought with them.

      I was talking about this with mates the other night.
      The context was hemp harvesting.
      Hemp is hard on gear, because of it’s awesome qualities.
      We came to a oversized scissor/secateur device that is used with horses.
      (Sorry I forget the name of it)

      What would be wrong with living sustainably, in harmony with the earth, eating locally and seasonally?

      • Dennis Frank 10.2.1
        2 December 2018 at 12:22 pm

        “What is it about the Amish way you are apprehensive about?”

        Um, pitchforks? Having to wear 19th century clothes? Having to go to church regularly? Also, “they don’t believe that faith automatically guarantees salvation” which must be damned annoying most of the time. A religion that doesn’t automatically save the true believer?? Get real.

        “Amish grant primary authority to the church and reject any civilian authority that contradicts it.” So the state and local govt are of negligible relevance. Forget the UN. Civil rights? The law? No way.
        https://www.newsmax.com/fastfeatures/amish-protestant-beliefs-apart/2015/04/02/id/635785/

        • francesca 10.2.1.1
          2 December 2018 at 12:59 pm

          Thats disingenuous.
          It’s not what gsays was referring to . I think we all know a simpler way less materialistic lifestyle is what we all need , and there’s absolutely no need to bring in the church or UN.

      • greywarshark 10.2.2
        2 December 2018 at 1:25 pm

        What is the philosophy to other people as well as to food and the earth?

        • francesca 10.2.2.1
          2 December 2018 at 3:12 pm

          I think we have to transcend our competitive mindsets and become cooperative and a whole lot kinder.
          We’ve done the talking primate on hind legs Desmond Morris thing (the naked ape competing for resources and tupping rights)
          It’s no longer working for us
          Time for the next evolutionary leap

          • gsays 10.2.2.1.1
            2 December 2018 at 5:35 pm

            Heh, thanks francesca, cooperative and kinder, in a nutshell.

            For me the next evolutionary step is sharing.

            A bonus is that it resonates with our nature.

      • McFlock 10.2.3
        2 December 2018 at 5:44 pm

        In the short to medium term, because many of the things we need to live are not efficiently produced locally – medicine or vaccines, for example.

        In the longer term, it would also shut down all higher-level research that requires electronic communication or analysis. Consumerism actually drives advancement and lowers costs (by increasing market size). Human technology would stagnate, and we’d just sit on this rock waiting for the true end to come. Fuck that.

  11. Ed 11
    2 December 2018 at 11:46 am

    Please can a moderator deal with James comment to me at 7.1.2.

    I am over the non-stop verbal abuse I receive from this person every time I post on this site.

    The comment at 7.1.2. is personal and repulsive.

    I expect protection from such levels of bullying.

    [lprent: Not enough for me to take action. It was a nasty side comment (and not abuse) while making his point – which was an assertion related to your assertions. ]

    • te reo putake 11.1
      2 December 2018 at 11:58 am

      Yeah, nah. On OM today you’ve called one contributor a troll and another ignorant. As Ghandi is supposed to have said ‘Be the change you want to see’.

      • Ed 11.1.1
        2 December 2018 at 11:59 am

        You have never defended my position.
        James has just been empowered to write even more personal attacks.
        This is not a safe place to make one’s points.

        • Antoine 11.1.1.1
          2 December 2018 at 12:26 pm

          > This is not a safe place to make one’s points.

          When has the Standard ever been sold as a safe place?

          A.

          [lprent: It has always been ‘sold’ as a place for robust debate. That severely limits how ‘safe’ it can be made. ]

        • francesca 11.1.1.2
          2 December 2018 at 1:02 pm

          Hey Ed
          The milk of human kindness is not really a feature of this site.
          Just ignore the bile and malice and keep providing the links despite it all !
          And incidentally TRP covered his butt with the “supposed”Gandhi quote.
          Gandhi never said that
          And what’s more he had the” h” in the wrong place

          • Ed 11.1.1.2.1
            2 December 2018 at 1:07 pm

            So I just ignore James’s comment ‘assuming someone bred with you.’
            If we do not stand up to bullies, they win.

            • Antoine 11.1.1.2.1.1
              2 December 2018 at 1:11 pm

              > So I just ignore James’s comment ‘assuming someone bred with you.’

              Exactly! You got it.

              For bonus points, ignore all James’ comments.

              A.

            • te reo putake 11.1.1.2.1.2
              2 December 2018 at 1:30 pm

              “If we do not stand up to bullies, they win.”

              You made quite a few comments on the Rachel Stewart post, Ed. Did any of them condemn her racist abuse and offer me any solidarity? Nope, not one. So stick your selective morality where the sun don’t shine.

              You’re a guest here at the Standard whare, Ed, and you get a fair crack. On occasions, you’ve led off some good discussions, including today’s Bomber thread. However, if the tit for tat between yourself and others becomes a problem, don’t assume the moderation will be limited to people you don’t like.

            • francesca 11.1.1.2.1.3
              2 December 2018 at 3:05 pm

              They take up too much time .Online bullies are usually face to face cowards
              Yep , that was a foul comment, I agree, but he contaminates himself by making it , not you.

  12. greywarshark 12
    2 December 2018 at 1:08 pm

    The unique futility of our thinking is evident in this youtube clip promoted as The Most Isolated Tribe in the World.

    It is about the Sentilese? I think they were the ones killed off one of those pesky religious evangelisticals or the like who won’t fucking leave alone any uninformed-about-Christianity or Dominant Religion till they teach them their way and try and convert them. It’s a competitive thing, being first to gather them into the fold, and so dominating the disruptive new religion market.
    (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7BNwmVvk6g

  13. greywarshark 13
    2 December 2018 at 1:22 pm

    If we can form close supportive groups with high numbers, we may be able to survive in the short term when times get really competitive. But for advanced humans, we would hope that we don’t descend into constant raids and defence.

    Our future? Howling hyenas against the Big One – a Lion, fit and strong.
    (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvhuzoqsshY

  14. greywarshark 14
    2 December 2018 at 2:21 pm

    The Thai caves success after debacle. Can we wanting change from rigid authoritarian attitudes learn from this.

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/377293/it-was-utter-chaos-inside-the-thai-cave-rescue

    • Exkiwiforces 14.1
      2 December 2018 at 6:27 pm

      The ABC had a similar report to the RNZ, I put to the fact the Thai’s didn’t want or to be seen to lose face and the other is a little bit racist (Which you see now and again if you have travelled to the border areas of Thailand aka South North West/ Northern Regions) as the is that the young kids weren’t Thai’s “so why should I risk my life for those kids, who aren’t Thai.

      The Thai’s, well most Asians are a funny lot sometimes especially if you get off the beaten track or turn up all of sudden where they don’t expect a Frang and the clash of cultures does play or could lead to misunderstanding than Authoritatarian attitudes.

      https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-02/thai-cave-boys-wild-boars-rescue-the-book-thailand-diving/10514970

  15. joe90 15
    2 December 2018 at 2:29 pm

    Well, you don’t put John Bolton in the driver’s seat if you’re trying to avoid a war.
    /

    .@SecPompeo: Iranian regime just test-fired a medium range ballistic missile capable of striking Europe & the Middle East. This violates #UNSC Res. 2231. #Iran’s missile testing & proliferation is growing. We are accumulating risk of escalation if we fail to restore deterrence. pic.twitter.com/ZEKPpHI6Ij— Department of State (@StateDept) December 1, 2018

    • DJ Ward 15.1
      2 December 2018 at 3:55 pm

      Yes I put Bolten in the McCain camp in that he creates fictional threats in his mind and lives in a paranoid state of mind as a result. Those who become his target realise the only end game for Bolten is there destruction. They act in response to his threat, portrayed as protecting freedom.

  16. greywarshark 16
    2 December 2018 at 2:37 pm

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/the-wireless/377177/watch-when-big-shot-artist-hundertwasser-moved-to-northland

    Many Germans have liked something about NZ enough that they have stayed and given much back to us.

  17. Morrissey 17
    2 December 2018 at 2:50 pm

    Never, Ever Forget The Guardian/Politico Psyop Against WikiLeaks
    by CAITLIN JOHNSTONE, Dec. 1, 2018

    For the first few hours after any new “bombshell” Russiagate story comes out, my social media notifications always light up with poorly written posts by liberal establishment loyalists saying things like “HAHAHA @caitoz this proves you wrong now will you FINALLY stop denying Russian collusion???” Then, when people start actually analyzing that story and noting that it comes nowhere remotely close to proving that Donald Trump colluded with the Russian government to steal the 2016 election, those same people always forget to come back afterward and admit to me that they were wrong again.

    This happens every single time, including this past Tuesday when the Guardian published a new “bombshell” report saying that former Trump campaign manager Paul Manafort had had secret meetings with WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange. When experts all across the political spectrum began pointing out that the story contained no evidence for its nonsensical claims and was entirely anonymously sourced, nobody ever came back and said “Hey sorry for calling you a Russian propagandist, Caitlin; turns out that story wasn’t as fact-based as I’d thought!” When evidence for a single one of the article’s claims failed to turn up for a day, then two days, then three days, nobody came back and said “Gosh Caitlin, I owe you an apology for mocking you and calling you Assange’s bitch; turns out WikiLeaks and Manafort are suing that publication and its claims remain completely unproven.”

    And of course they didn’t. They weren’t meant to. They were meant to absorb the Guardian’s false claims as fact, add it to their Gish gallop mountain of false evidence for Trump-Russia-WikiLeaks collusion, and then be shuffled onward by the relentless news churn of the corporate propaganda matrix like always. But I’m never going to let them forget that this happened, and neither should you. …

    Read more….
    https://ahtribune.com/culture-media/2664-guardian-politico-psyop-against-wikileaks.html

    • Ed 17.1
      2 December 2018 at 3:04 pm

      As ever, you speak total sense .
      The Guardian is a pillar of the neoliberal establishment.
      Luke Harding is a traitor to the people of the UK and the world.
      He took his 30 pieces of silver.

      • WILD KATIPO 17.1.1
        2 December 2018 at 4:03 pm

        Assange is one of the greatest whistle-blowers of our time. Yet some among the ‘woke’ left align themselves with the far right as their useful tools . They are fed the identity politics issues that is the flavour of the month from the far right and go at it with a fervor matched only by those prosecutors of the Salem witch trials.

        5 Facts You Didn’t Know About Julian Assange founder of … – YouTube

  18. Wayne 18
    2 December 2018 at 4:03 pm

    Ed,

    You seem to think everyone to the right of you is a traitor to the people, and should be prosecuted. Do you not understand the meaning of democracy and pluralistic society, where it is actually legitimate to hold views different to your preferred view?

    More particularly, have you ever considered why all democratic societies have some form of market economy as their basic economic organising principle. The simple reason being choice. Most people want choice (in varying degrees).

    • Ed 18.1
      2 December 2018 at 4:09 pm

      I don’t think all people to the right of me are traitors.

      I do think the politicians in New Zealand who changed our laws so this country could be sold to foreign corporations and interests are traitors, in the same way people betray their country in war.
      Many of the traitors were in the Labour Party of the 1980s.

      Luke Harding and the Guardian cabal betrayed us by aligning with the deep state in its war against us.

      You should know all this, but as ex-war Minister of New Zealand, you are probably have insider knowledge of the demands of the deep state.

    • WILD KATIPO 18.2
      2 December 2018 at 4:27 pm

      Just a few points , Wayne , to riegn in your simplistic overveiw of what in you mind, constitutes ‘democracy’.

      First off ,…

      Extremes, Wayne, extremes.

      On both the left and right . There is a reason that Germany outlawed the National Socialists. And no matter how much one valued ‘democracy’ ,- the National Socialists remained banned in Germany. For good reason. On the flip side,… there is a reason why most sane people abhor Pol Pot, Stalin or Mao. Because they were ALL genocidal govts.

      Those are all the EXTREMES , yes, we understand that. But the example proves that there ARE NO safe harbors in which to park ones allegiances in when extremes are concerned – either LEFT or Right.

      NOW , THAT SAID… a moderate individual , one who seeks good will for themselves and others would be more inclined to seek an ideology /political movement that did just that. And , in the process of doing so ,… would find themselves inadvertently aligning themselves up with those individuals who are known as the ‘ GREAT GENERATION’… those stalwarts who went off to fight in World War Two , who came back having seen , witnessed and partaking of the bloody obscenity’s of humans murdering one another and were determined that those hideous conditions would not repeat themselves here.

      They knew what poverty , deprivation and wholesale violence led to.

      Thus, they adopted the ‘cradle to the grave ‘ welfare policy’s. They adopted Keynesian economics , wage award rates , full employment ,- and , – after having done so , – enjoyed the most prosperous and peaceful conditions in history that we in NZ have ever known. And per capita we ( NZ ) were among the most wealthiest in the world. We were 6th , – behind Denmark. The system we lived under was recognized by both Labour and National ( Muldoon was a staunch supporter of it and the working man.) and woebetide any who tried to tamper with it.

      But then along came your hideous friends, Wayne, – your grubby little neo liberal buddy’s. The likes of Roger Douglas, Ruth Richardson, Mike Moore, Jenny Shipley and co and rode roughshod over the ‘ democratic’ process you like to trumpet about and pretend you uphold, and went completely against the democratic will of the people and proceeded to flog off the assets built up by the Great Generation , paid for through taxes and hard work , gut out forestry’s , electricity company’s , airports , rail systems and so on and so forth… not to mention passing the odious Employment Contracts Act 1991 to smash unions to please your 1%’er mates to increase their profits on the workers backs…

      And you , Wayne, …. you dare to try and lecture us about what ‘democracy’ is.

      It was radicals , Wayne,… radicals just like you we despised. You are not ‘Orthodox’ . You are not ‘C

      • WILD KATIPO 18.2.1
        2 December 2018 at 4:33 pm

        Would be nice if the mods could delete this one. Somehow double posted.

      • Dennis Frank 18.2.2
        2 December 2018 at 4:44 pm

        Having been brought up into that state socialism, I see the benefits more clearly in retrospect, so I partly agree. However voters turned against it because under Muldoon it became obvious that it was no longer economically viable. Same realisation swung voters back to the 19th century in other western countries.

        And Wayne is right that most people want cheaper stuff & consumer choice, so his framing of democracy is valid. These ideological pitches and critiques belong to the past, there’s points of merit on both sides and centrists just want a mix that works in the current social context.

        What we’re seeking now is UBI to replace the welfare shambles, weaning off foreign trade dependency via judicious domestic enterprise development, smart tech, and any other suitable design feature to throw into the mix to replace neoliberalism. We don’t need any more complaining about the past. We need to provide for our future!

        • WILD KATIPO 18.2.2.1
          2 December 2018 at 7:49 pm

          Load of jargonese cobblers.

          First off, – Wayne never mentioned ‘cheaper goods’. Neither for the consumers nor for ‘democracy’.

          Your twisting things deliberately.

          Second off,… no the voters didn’t turn against it because under Muldoon it became obvious that it was no longer economically viable. They were convinced by the same neo liberal cabal who were pushing for these deregulated markets.

          ————————————————–

          A key point of the free-market cabal’s programme was to devalue the New Zealand dollar, an extremely sensitive issue.

          Several weeks before the July, 1984 election, Douglas, Labour’s shadow finance minister, “accidentally” released a statement which signaled his intent to devalue.

          Since it was a near certainty that labour, aided by the New Zealand Party’s drawing votes from the Nationals, would win, speculators began to dump the New Zealand dollar, planning, post-devaluation, to cash in each dollar of foreign currency for more New Zealand dollars than previously.

          With Labour’s victory, the simmering foreign exchange crisis exploded. The Reserve Bank’s foreign Exchange holdings quickly ran dry, and Labour demanded, even before the end of the several-week transition period, that Muldoon devalue.

          After a brief struggle, Muldoon capitulated, and devalued by 20%. Speculators made tens, if not hundreds of millions of dollars overnight.

          ———————————————————

          AND THAT ,… sonny Jim, – was the REAL reason AND the devious methods used by the treasonous neo liberals to overturn NZ’s Keynesian system. They couldn’t do it in the open because at that time we had strong treason laws. So they had to resort to devious and ‘un democratic ‘ methods such as the above to affect it.

          New Right Fight – Who are the New Right?
          http://www.newrightfight.co.nz/pageA.html

          Do some homework.

          And in the meantime – stop being an apologist for people like Wayne and other odious neo liberals. Including, it seems, yourself. As for your ‘These ideological pitches and critiques belong to the past, ‘… that is , according to you and those like you. Yet with your radical neo liberalism you have presented NO WORKING MODEL that can take the former’s place. Barring more of the same poverty for hundreds of thousand’s of NZ’ers. You are a comfortable apologist using those same hundreds of thousands of NZ’ers as your retirement comfort plan.

          Screw you.

          UBI?… and to be determined by WHOM?

          The same bald faced con men/women criminals like Jenny Shipley who set the welfare rates deliberately 20% under the actual survivable cost of living???

          Yeah right. We’ve heard it all before , mate.

          The same lies, the same rorts, the same perversions of the truth.

          … [ weaning off foreign trade dependency via judicious domestic enterprise development, smart tech, and any other suitable design feature to throw into the mix to replace neoliberalism ] …

          Yeah and Cindarella just got a new dress.

          We’ve heard all that before as well.

          And yes, – setting trade deals with Russia would be a smart move, :

          ——————————————————–

          Winston Peters has offered a way out. Trade with the Russians. A brilliant tactical move that extricates us from Chinese and American imperialism.

          And makes us rich.

          Let the Chinese rail, let the Americans rail… let the Americans wring their hands at the smaller sibling who now trades with their ‘deadly rivals’. Let little NZ salute with the middle finger England who so promptly ditched us when they joined the EEC…

          America, who use us as a gawking outpost on the Pacific and China with their 5 eyes system,…China, who use free trade deals as a way to implement soft power on us and our democracy…

          Take them all down by trading big time with the Russians. Embarrass them all.

          You might just find, that suddenly ,… those long sought after trading deals with America might just become very lucrative indeed all of a sudden as a sweetener … meanwhile,… no promises given as we happily trade wholesale with the Ruskies…

          ———————————————————

          Anything wrong with that so far , cobber?

          And maybe your dreamy little exercise about ” domestic enterprise development, smart tech, and any other suitable design feature ” would work a little better if we had such things as trade tariffs and protection of our own industry’s , – instead of open slather deregulation passing of industrial information that caused China to benefit from our dairy industry and horticulture industry ie : kiwifruit production.

          Its called industrial secrets and intellectual property , mate.

          And THAT … brings us right back round to how things were in NZ BEFORE the Roger Douglas TREASON.

          IN OTHER WORDS – What I was talking about before you chimed in with your idealistic Pollyanna B.S idealized and unrealistic view of the world..

    • WILD KATIPO 18.3
      2 December 2018 at 4:32 pm

      Just a few points , Wayne , to reign in your simplistic overview of what in your mind, constitutes ‘democracy’.

      First off ,…

      Extremes, Wayne, extremes.

      On both the left and right . There is a reason that Germany outlawed the National Socialists. And no matter how much one valued ‘democracy’ ,- the National Socialists remained banned in Germany. For good reason. On the flip side,… there is a reason why most sane people abhor Pol Pot, Stalin or Mao. Because they were ALL genocidal govts.

      Those are all the EXTREMES , yes, we understand that. But the example proves that there ARE NO safe harbors in which to park ones allegiances in when extremes are concerned – either LEFT or Right.

      NOW , THAT SAID… a moderate individual , one who seeks good will for themselves and others would be more inclined to seek an ideology /political movement that did just that. And , in the process of doing so ,… would find themselves inadvertently aligning themselves up with those individuals who are known as the ‘ GREAT GENERATION’… those stalwarts who went off to fight in World War Two , who came back having seen , witnessed and partaking of the bloody obscenity’s of humans murdering one another and were determined that those hideous conditions would not repeat themselves here.

      They knew what poverty , deprivation and wholesale violence led to.

      Thus, they adopted the ‘cradle to the grave ‘ welfare policy’s. They adopted Keynesian economics , wage award rates , full employment ,- and , – after having done so , – enjoyed the most prosperous and peaceful conditions in history that we in NZ have ever known. And per capita we ( NZ ) were among the most wealthiest in the world. We were 6th , – behind Denmark. The system we lived under was recognized by both Labour and National ( Muldoon was a staunch supporter of it and the working man.) and woebetide any who tried to tamper with it.

      But then along came your hideous friends, Wayne, – your grubby little neo liberal buddy’s. The likes of Roger Douglas, Ruth Richardson, Mike Moore, Jenny Shipley and co and rode roughshod over the ‘ democratic’ process you like to trumpet about and pretend you uphold, and went completely against the democratic will of the people and proceeded to flog off the assets built up by the Great Generation , paid for through taxes and hard work , gut our forestry’s , electricity company’s , airports , rail systems and so on and so forth… not to mention passing the odious Employment Contracts Act 1991 to smash unions to please your 1%’er mates to increase their profits on the workers backs…

      And you , Wayne, …. you dare to try and lecture us about what ‘democracy’ is.

      It was radicals , Wayne,… radicals just like you we despised. You are not ‘Orthodox’ . You are not ‘Conservative’. You are part of a renegade, out of control and dangerous cabal of piratical leeches who looked lustfully at the wealth of this land and when conditions were right ? – you, along with groups like the Business Roundtable and other traitors in both National and Labour, decided it was time to plunder it.

      EXTREMIST RADICALS , Wayne.

      Don’t try and preach to US about the virtues of democracy when your own ideological history and those who you consort with show blatant contempt for the same.

    • KJT 18.4
      2 December 2018 at 10:10 pm

      From Wayne. One of the people who turned our society up side down. Because he though that Lawyers should be paid a lot more than wharfies.

  19. joe90 19
    2 December 2018 at 5:15 pm

    If you think palm oil that’s grown for food is the problem, think again.

    Most of the plantations around us were new, their rise a direct consequence of policy decisions made half a world away. In the mid-2000s, Western nations, led by the United States, began drafting environmental laws that encouraged the use of vegetable oil in fuels — an ambitious move to reduce carbon dioxide and curb global warming. But these laws were drawn up based on an incomplete accounting of the true environmental costs. Despite warnings that the policies could have the opposite of their intended effect, they were implemented anyway, producing what now appears to be a calamity with global consequences.

    http://archive.li/PaUW7

  20. bwaghorn 20
    2 December 2018 at 5:57 pm

    Baa fucking hum bug .
    I’ve had a quick scroll (shepherds be busy in December)
    And the usual we need to change bullshit still prevails.
    The greens ain’t green enuff. Labours not doing enuff.
    We need to reduce . We need trains blah blah blah .

    What you lot need is to fucking realise is that humans ain’t going to change .
    Science is the only fix .
    Carbon removal is the only answer .

    • McFlock 20.1
      2 December 2018 at 6:38 pm

      Removal is part of the answer, but will never be the whole answer unless someone figures out how to synthesize long carbon nanotubes from CO2. But then we’ll have a super-strong plastics problem in the Pacific Gyre.

  21. Dennis Frank 21
    2 December 2018 at 6:18 pm

    Baffling poll result on One News: https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/national-surpasses-labour-in-latest-1-news-colmar-brunton-poll-nz-first-and-greens-dip-dangerously-low

    Nats back on top despite doing nothing! Contradicts those internal poll results reported by both parties recently too. You know, Labour ten points ahead…

    • James 21.1
      2 December 2018 at 6:21 pm

      Every time labour leak their internal polls it’s been bullshit.

      Didn’t mean much this far out – but great to seeing nzf and Green’s close to being gone burger.

      • mickysavage 21.1.1
        2 December 2018 at 6:23 pm

        The last leak was National’s internals …

      • WILD KATIPO 21.1.2
        3 December 2018 at 2:47 am

        James,… NZ First is the party the radical right wingers fear,… and hate.

        You will be seeing a lot more of them in future.

        They represent the new conservative vote in NZ, and the new vote endorse by your children. You had best heed that vote,

    • Anne 21.2
      2 December 2018 at 6:35 pm

      Well, it indicates the voters are back into contradictory mode. On the one hand the Nats have increased their vote (looks like at NZ First’s expense) and Labour is down from the last CB poll, yet the economic outlook under the Lab led govt has increased. Can’t have it both ways voters.

      We haven’t been seeing too much of the Prime Minister of late. I don’t know whether that is intentional or whether the media have decided to ignore her. Whatever… it shows in the outcome of this poll.

      • Dennis Frank 21.2.1
        2 December 2018 at 6:44 pm

        I agree the PM’s recent presentation could be a factor. Also, as MS pointed out, could just be random fluctuations within the margin of error for Colmar Brunton. But the discrepancy with the recent internal poll that rated Labour ten points ahead raises a question about how valid polling methodology is.

      • alwyn 21.2.2
        2 December 2018 at 6:58 pm

        “We haven’t been seeing too much of the Prime Minister of late”.
        I would have said that Winston had been quite vocal and frequently on display lately. If anything we have been seeing rather to much of the old sot.

        • WILD KATIPO 21.2.2.1
          3 December 2018 at 3:18 am

          SHUT UP.

          Just shut up.

          There’s a reason why Peters is our senior politician,…and why hes earned that position. Because in a young govt hes needed. His senior , wise and unflappable confidence is warranted. Moreover his life experience and prior diplomatic expertise is needed.

          This is not something from a decade ago, but something right here and now.

          Peters has shown him self over and over to be more than just some temporal appendage , some new boy on the block, – but rather as a seasoned , battle hardened old campaigner. And a wise and steadfast tactical , strategic diplomat.

          When idiots from all walks of the political spectrum spurn him,… we all suffer.

          Shut up!… just shut up !…. and let the senior politicians speak.

          We are tired of the young upstarts, the new inexperienced blood. It is time for wisdom of age and experience to speak !!!! They have the backdrop of time and
          life experience to lend authority to their words.

          Enough of all this !!!

          Let the elders speak !!!!

  22. Exkiwiforces 22
    2 December 2018 at 6:40 pm

    For those who the think Chinese tourist dollar is great for NZ Tourism, well this article from ABC may’ve wroken up a few up that Chinese Tourist dollars are a myth and as my dad said to me when he was taking me around CHCH l(showing me the Pie eater’s and DonKey handiwork) last yr the Chinese tourists are ripping off NZ Tourism companies blind.

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-02/how-chinese-tourists-are-reshaping-tourism-around-the-world/10557512

    My dad was tour coach driver for well established CHCH based NZ Tour Coach Company, until he recently retired from the company last mth.

    • greywarshark 22.1
      2 December 2018 at 7:10 pm

      This is interesting on Chinese tourism from above link.
      Thanks exkiwiforces.
      Thailand and Indonesia are cracking down on “zero-dollar” tours — all-inclusive travel packages sold at bargain basement prices that usually sound too good to be true — which have allegedly exploited the lack of local regulations.

      Mandatory shopping stops at stores and factories are built into the itinerary, and tourists are urged — and sometimes pressured — to make purchases at marked-up prices.
      Many of the shops have large parking lots packed with buses, but the public are usually not welcome.

      Travel packages from China to Bali can be bought for as cheaply as $60, which includes everything you need for a five-night stay, according to Indonesia’s National Organisation for Tours and Travel (ASITA)…

      Chinese tourists account for 21 per cent of global travel spending this year so far, according to the United Nations World Tourism Organisation.
      These numbers can greatly benefit a local economy, but analysts argue it can also be used by the Chinese Government as “global leverage”.

      University of Melbourne expert on Chinese foreign relations, Sow Keat Tok, said this power has been used by Beijing to rapidly generate “hostage situations” with countries it has political or diplomatic differences with — showing China’s “willingness to wield the tourism card”.

      Travel packages from China to Bali can be bought for as cheaply as $60, which includes everything you need for a five-night stay, according to Indonesia’s National Organisation for Tours and Travel (ASITA).

      “The shops are [illegally] owned by Chinese nationals; selling Chinese-produced items which are usually paid for with Alipay or WeChat,” said the head of ASITA Bali, I Ketut Ardana…
      He said tour operators were able to sell travel packages cheaply because they work with Chinese operators in Bali who take them to Chinese-owned shops and tourist attractions that do not incur an entry fee.
      The practice takes revenue away from the local economy because the income goes directly into the pockets of the people involved, he said…

      “Sometimes they emotionally motivate these people to do it, sometimes they violently force them to buy it.

      • Exkiwiforces 22.1.1
        2 December 2018 at 9:47 pm

        On my last trip to Laos and Nth Eastern Thailand I notice a few of those shops popping up. Before that some 5 yrs ago I was on a Sway Tour through Laos up in the Plain of Jars and taking to an expat Australian who was running the Q& A management of Sway’s Laos operations about Chinese tourism and economic clout in Laos. He went on to say that the proposed Chinese high speed/ freight railway from Kuming in China to Pattaya in Thailand via Laos, that the Chinese wanted own (not lease as most people think) land either side of the Right of Way up to a depth of 10km for their own purpose and a lot local Lao’s were only starting to realise what that meant to the local Lao economy.

        Was hoping to head back next yr for some NGO work as I have mate in Laos, but it’s the 20th Anniversary of when INTERFET went into Timor-Leste and they come first.

        Dad’s experience with Chinese tourism sector in NZ is all bad words to put it mildly, when compared to the Japanese, Singapore, Thai’s, Malaysian, Taiwan and Sth Koreans tourists. The Chinese pretty much ripped off a number of NZ companies, in other words pinch all their ideas and products and in some cases brought out NZ firms or put pressure on them to shut out other tourist companies. The list goes on and on the underhand tactics that the Chinese tourist operators are doing in NZ, but no one doesn’t really want to come down hard the Chinese because of the damage they could do to other parts of the NZ economy.

        • greywarshark 22.1.1.1
          2 December 2018 at 10:06 pm

          Interesting – i an not surprised. Did i mention colin cotterill to you. in case i didn’t he hasd= qriien crime books that are different – in one an old lao couple outwit all comers and solve crimes along with a great bunch of supporting characters.

          • Exkiwiforces 22.1.1.1.1
            4 December 2018 at 4:12 pm

            I believe you did, but I can’t remember when as I have Colin Coterill’s name written down on my list to buy books when someone here on the “The Standard” mentions a particular author or book worth reading. Mind you some books and authors do to get scrubbed if i do some further research or avoid them like the plague or I want to read them out of curiosity, especially on why they went down a particular route.

            I’ve just finished one book on “Mad on Radium, New Zealand in the Atom Age” by Rebecca Priestley. Which someone here mentioned it.

            I knew some stuff on NZ’s involvement in Nuclear Science/ Research and prospecting for Uranium on the Coast , but I didn’t know just how far or in depth it was NZ was involved and was I blown away by it all as NZ was up to it’s neck in it. As I said to dad last night about it, NZ wasn’t all that far behind Australia either IRT to Nuclear Power at one stage the Aussies got as far laying the foundations for its first nuclear power station before it was knocked on the head and is now a carpark (Joking known as the worlds most expensive carpark) for the local surfers at Jervis Bay (The Tasman side) NSW.

            That book is worth the read on a wet summers day.

  23. Pat 23
    2 December 2018 at 10:07 pm

    “One example was provided last week by a UN report that revealed attempts to ensure fossil fuel emissions peak by 2020 will fail. Indeed the target will not even be reached by 2030. Another, by the World Meteorological Organization, said the past four years had been the warmest on record and warned that global temperatures could easily rise by 3-5C by 2100, well above that sought-after goal of 1.5C. The UK will not be exempt either. The Met Office said summer temperatures could now be 5.4C hotter by 2070.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/dec/02/world-verge-climate-catastophe

    Looks like the softly softly approach has been abandoned as dangerously ineffective.

  24. Cinny 24
    2 December 2018 at 10:30 pm

    If you watch just one tv episode this year, make it the 2 Dec episode of The Hui.

    Mad respect to all involved, especially Mike King.

    We hear snippets of his work, but to hear and watch his presentation to the high school kids, profoundly moved me, deeply emotional, incredibly confrontational.

    If you have children, watch it with them, watch it with your friends, your partner, your family open up the communication channels.

    Word’s can’t describe, so grateful for such efforts from Mike King and The Hui for this piece, kudos and thank you.

    https://www.threenow.co.nz/shows/the-hui/season-3%3A-sunday-2-december-2018/125685/M26879-480

    • WILD KATIPO 24.1
      3 December 2018 at 3:38 am

      Yeah well,… so often it is… that we have to reach back to our family roots to get a sense of whats tangible, real and appropriate.

      Now here’s something that’s foreign to NZ’ers….

      But you , Cinny… know what I’m talkin’ about.

      I thrive off of this sort of stuff.

      Traditional Lakota/Dakota Sundance Songs 3/6 – YouTube

      • WILD KATIPO 24.1.1
        3 December 2018 at 3:47 am

        So get a bit of Aussie up ya’s….

        Lets get a bit down and under.

        Corroboree – YouTube

        • WILD KATIPO 24.1.1.1
          3 December 2018 at 4:00 am

          Then we got this :

          There were people who never gave in…

          ALIEN WEAPONRY – Kai Tangata (Official Video) | Napalm Records …
          Video for alien weaponry kai tangata▶ 7:17

          Yeah , Norse / Scots…. but respect to all these gorgeous people. My geologies goes back a thousand years,… so bloody what. So what if they were Dane or Norse.

          • WILD KATIPO 24.1.1.1.1
            3 December 2018 at 4:47 am

            Yeah … tough hearted bastards,,,,… now lets support em.

            They’ve earned it.

            So what if they, …. played one off against another..didn’t the Romans?

            It was just military thinking….wouldn’t we do the same?

            The Maoris… have more than earned their place in history.

            What an incredible people, We should be proud.

        • WILD KATIPO 24.1.1.2
          3 December 2018 at 5:09 am

          I loved it when the men moved in….

          The protectors , the providers…the lovely women who nurtured the children, who protected the young children….A family group. This is what society is all about.

        • WILD KATIPO 24.1.1.3
          3 December 2018 at 6:03 am

          Gotta say ….. the men …had a strong part to play. There was no dilatation, you all had a part to play…. you’ve lost that strong leadership,…. you’ve lost the woman’s vote of confidence.

      • Cinny 24.1.2
        3 December 2018 at 9:06 am

        WK 🙂 Lakota wisdom 🙂 Thank you 🙂

    • Jum 24.2
      3 December 2018 at 6:18 pm

      He was brilliant on Hui; he can stand on a stage and students won’t believe him to be some sort of fake, talking down, righteous type. He means what he says.

      The reason I took a much earlier interest in him, though, was the day he came out and told us what was happening to pigs. Originally acting as front man for the pig meat sellers, he discovered the intensity factory housing of them. It was a gotcha moment for me too, because I honestly believed our animals – our pigs, our chickens, our dairy cows – lived life on the grass in the sunshine, just like we have access to the outside.

      Thanks for that Mike King. It changed how I eat and to support those activists far more clever than me to stop factories blotting our landscape.

      This is not the New Zealand we want.

      People and animals are damaged by these practices.

      This is full circle stuff; people then are treated like factory animals. It’s ugly and greedy.

  25. eco maori 25
    3 December 2018 at 8:29 am

    Kia ora the Am Show well what the wealthy should do is buy electric cars Duncan to help mitigate climate change .
    The plastic problem we can use paper bags and glass and aluminum containers .
    Did simon just land maggie barry in it lol the fiery lady statement from him.
    Well the inquiry into bulling in Parliament will change the culture of Parliament NO.
    Looks like the Maori Santa has brought out some true feeling if thing’s did not evolve we would be still stuck in the dark ages I don’t see what the problem is with a maori Santa the children have internet now they know he is a fictional character .
    I hope there is not to much carnage in the bush fires in Australia .
    Its cool that Mexico is going to set in place a policy to create more job creation’s in central America so the people don’t have to leave there home country for a better life. Yes we have to come up with more initiatives to keep our elderly mind’s and body’s active we need to be more grateful of our elderly contributions to our society RESPECT.
    Ka kite ano

  26. eco maori 26
    3 December 2018 at 9:07 am

    Eco Maori has observed climate change for 25 years I know we all have to make sacrifices to battle the carbon barons for a better future for our DECENDENTS.
    On Sunday morning hundreds of politicians, government officials and scientists will gather in the grandeur of the International Congress Centre in Katowice, Poland. It will be a familiar experience for many. For 24 years the annual UN climate conference has served up a reliable diet of rhetoric, backroom talks and dramatic last-minute deals aimed at halting global warming. in 2100. Although most discussions use the year as a convenient cut-off point for describing Earth’s likely fate, the changes we have already triggered will last well beyond that date, said Svetlana Jevrejeva, at the National Oceanography Centre, Liverpool. She has studied sea-level rises that will be triggered by melting ice sheets and expanding warm seawater in a world 3-5C hotter than it was in pre-industrial times, and concludes these could reach 0.74 to 1.8 metres by 2100. This would be enough to deluge Pacific and Indian Ocean island states and displace millions from Miami, Guangzhou, Mumbai and other low-lying cities. The total cost to the planet could top £11trillion.Vast tracts of prime real estate will be destroyed – at a time when land will be needed with unprecedented desperation. Earth’s population stands at seven billion today and is predicted to rise to nine billion by 2050 and settle at over 11 billion by 2100 – when climate change will have wrecked major ecosystems and turned farmlands to dust bowls.Scientists warned more than 30 years ago that such a future lay ahead, but nothing was done to stave it off. Only dramatic measures are now left to those seeking to save our burning planet, and these can have grim political consequences. In France, for example, President Macron’s new levies on fossil fuels, introduced to cut emissions and to fund renewable energy projects, triggered riots. Had only modest changes been enacted a few decades ago there would be no trouble today, say analysts.
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    But the most telling example is provided by the US, which has emitted about a third of the carbon responsible for global warming. Yet it has essentially done nothing to check its annual rises in output. Lobbying by the fossil fuel industry has proved highly effective at blocking political change – a point most recently demonstrated by groups such as the Competitive Enterprise Institute and the Heartland Institute, which helped persuade President Trump to pull out of the Paris agreement, thus dashing the planet’s last hope of ecological salvation. “The coalition used its power to slow us down precisely at the moment when we needed to speed up,” said the environmentalist Bill McKibben in the New Yorker.Florida

    No region of the US has more to lose from climate change than southern Florida. If scientists’ worst predictions are realised, an entire metropolitan area, currently inhabited by more than six million people, is likely to be swamped by a 1.5-metre sea-level rise before the end of this century, a rise that could see the tourist mecca of Miami simply disappear. Ka kite ano

  27. eco maori 27
    3 December 2018 at 9:46 am

    Trade tariff’s hurt the common people the most as they pay the bill not goverment’s.
    he tangata he tangata that count the most in any country some don’t get IT.
    donald trump has delayed for 90 days his threatened imposition of 25% tariffs on most Chinese imports after a dinner meeting with Xi Jinping, to give time for negotiations on longstanding trade disputes between the two countries, the White House has said.The two presidents agreed that the two sides can and must get bilateral relations right,” Wang Yi, China’s lead diplomat, told reporters in Buenos Aires. “Discussion on economic and trade issues was very positive and constructive. The two heads of state reached consensus to halt the mutual increase of new tariffs.”China has agreed to start purchasing agricultural product from our farmers immediately,” the statement said. Since trade tensions have escalated under Trump, China has radically reduced its import of US soy beans and other farm products, with direct impact on farmers in the US mid-west where Trump has drawn much of his political support.We suspect that since he negotiated this deal himself, Trump will be much more reluctant to torpedo it when his own personal reputation is on the line,” Ashworth added. Ka kite ano.

  28. eco maori 28
    3 December 2018 at 10:11 am

    Lets hope that we have learned that war’s is not the correct way to change who leads the World here is a video and what I get out of it is cultures that have much in-common did not go to war over leadership of the world .The world leader need to learn to pass the baton on in this relay .Eco Maori says that America & China have a lot in-common now so PEACE is what is needed for the people to have a happy healthy life we need to work together to fight climate change and not each other for the grandchildren sake .

    Is war between China and the US inevitable? | Graham Allison
    Ka kite ano

  29. eco maori 29
    3 December 2018 at 2:53 pm

    I hope OUR World leader’s can lead us all on a journey away from climate disaster to a World binding agreement to protect our descendants and mother earth future.
    We are last generation that can stop climate change’ – UN summit .
    Big cuts in carbon emissions and a rise in protection from extreme weather urgently needed . We are clearly the last generation that can change the course of climate change, but we are also the first generation with its consequences,” said Kristalina Georgieva, the CEO of the World Bank. The bank announced on Monday that its record $100bn (£78bn) of climate funding from 2021-2025 would for the first time be split equally between projects to cut emissions and those protecting people from the floods, storms and droughts that global warming is making worse. Ka kite ano links below .

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/dec/03/we-are-last-generation-that-can-stop-climate-change-un-summit

  30. eco maori 30
    3 December 2018 at 6:44 pm

    Kia ora Newshub That was a big thunder & lightning strike at that Hamilton school.
    I totally agree with his views we need to reduce reuse and stop producing waste not just plastic all waste need to be recycled .
    The fuel company’s are in a dominate position to manipulate the market excuse we are so far away from the export market does not cut it anymore thats the line most retailer use to have there price higher difference justified when compared to other countrys .
    That really cool that more tracks have been closed in Auckland to protect Tane Mahuta
    Ka pai to all the people protesting about the need to battle climate change.
    I see some one was not impressed with trump refusing to include America in the Parsh
    agreement
    Well come to Aotearoa to South Korean President Moon Jae in I say we will be good respectful host.
    The housing corp meth testing scam Cleo I feel for all those people who lost there house’s and who was running the meth testing retired WHO.
    At least they are getting compensation from the Coalition Government if the old one was still in the gravy train would have still been running and ruining peoples lives.
    Ka kite ano

  31. eco maori 31
    3 December 2018 at 7:24 pm

    Kia ora The Crowd Goes Wild James & Mulls good fight the boxing well The Gypsy had a good fight he had a good come back fight I like his waiata I get knocked down and I get up again the rematch will get the punters going ka pai.
    The soccer call looked as bad as the basket ball calls.
    Sam the man he had a good long UFC courier all the best in your retirement .
    The Lonsdale Awards Cup looks like a good event Anna.
    I’m not scared of heights but I don’t like the Idea of jumping out of a plane unless its crashing good footage
    Ka kite ano

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