Open mike 02/12/2014

Written By: - Date published: 6:41 am, December 2nd, 2014 - 203 comments
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203 comments on “Open mike 02/12/2014 ”

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  1. Paul 1
    2 December 2014 at 6:54 am

    To those who believed National’s lies about the state of our economy, welcome to reality.
    Hope you now see you were conned by our PM. Did you believe everything he says?
    Wonder if our wonderful media will mention the prospect of a surplus now.

    ‘Terms of trade picked to fall further
    Falling dairy prices have begun to undermine one of the foundations of the economic upswing, rising national income from the most favourable terms of trade for more than 40 years.’

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11367194

    ‘Payout below $5 a kg picked
    Tomorrow will see the last GlobalDairyTrade auction before Fonterra releases its revised farmgate milk price forecast for 2014/15, and indications are that product prices will remain flat at best, say economists.
    Fonterra’s board is set to meet early next week and bank economists expect the co-operative dairy giant to revise its current $5.30 per kg of milksolids forecast for 2014/15 to sub $5 levels.
    Prices have fallen by close to 50 per cent since February, driven mostly by excess supply.’

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11367204

    ‘China’s growth skids to eight-month low
    China’s manufacturing growth hit an eight-month low in November, an official survey shows, signalling further downward pressure on the world’s second-largest economy.’

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11367186

    • b waghorn 1.1
      2 December 2014 at 7:04 am

      Just remember that most farmers are good buggers and this is going to put a lot of pressure on them ,(there is a high incidence of suicide in rural nz) until a government finds a way to control the banks the endless search for more production will go on.

      • Paul 1.1.1
        2 December 2014 at 7:12 am

        I agree.
        It’s just the government’ s over reliance on the intensification of dairy has caused this.
        Sadly this will see the sale of more farmland to wealthy foreign corporations.
        Tenants in our own land.

        • phillip ure 1.1.1.1
          2 December 2014 at 8:03 am

          those farmers that are smart will look to what james cameron is doing with/to the large dairy farms he bought in the wairarapa..

          ..he is converting them all back into growing real food..

          ..and this is the interesting/important news for any farmers with a brain that can think past the udder..

          ..cameron is experimenting by trying to grow lots of different crops..

          ..to see which work best in that post-dairy environment..

          ..and he will be making all the results of those experiments free to view online..

          ..this work cameron is doing now..

          ..may in the long run be more important than his flicks..

          ..and this cameron-message should be heeded by iwi who are pouring their treaty-settlement money into this dead/dying industry of death..

          ..they should also look to what cameron has done/is doing..

          ..this is the guarantee of a good future for them..

          ..not just more fucken dairy farms…

          ..with an economic-future of global gluts in dairy..

          ..and the horrendous environmental-costs of hauling our products of ill-health to world markets becoming ever more significant/harming to that industry..

          ..that iwi are pouring their settlement monies down the drain in this way..

          ..disturbs me greatly..

          • ianmac 1.1.1.1.1
            2 December 2014 at 8:40 am

            That is great news Phil. A ray of hope is James Cameron.

          • Jenny Kirk 1.1.1.1.2
            2 December 2014 at 8:47 am

            Philip – can you put up a link to information about James Cameron’s different type of farming please

            • phillip ure 1.1.1.1.2.1
              2 December 2014 at 2:24 pm

              @ jenny..this is general knowledge i picked up from a recent interview with cameron..sorry..i can’t remember where i read that interview..

              ..and this was recently..and he said he would be putting the results online..so was talking about the future..

              ..and he noted that because he is not dependent on those farms for his income..

              ..that he is the perfect one to carry out these experiments..

              ..hope all that helps..

          • Bill 1.1.1.1.3
            2 December 2014 at 10:48 am

            Philip. Is there more to that than planting a garden to provide food for his vegan restaurant and running a walnut orchard? That’s hardly converting them (over 1000 hectares) all back into growing real food

            That’s all I could find from a google search, but am hopeful you can supply a link showing more than I could find..

            • weka 1.1.1.1.3.1
              2 December 2014 at 1:43 pm

              The most substantial block to NZ farms converting to sustainable agriculture is debt and the system of farm advisors who push the extractive farming model. Cameron didn’t have the debt and could hire in his own advisors.

          • The Al1en 1.1.1.1.4
            2 December 2014 at 11:28 am

            As a horticulturist and a genuine life long lefty, I’ve previously advocated that NZ should declare it’s neutrality to the world stage, and with our temperate climate and abundance of fertile land, become a food supplier to all nations in need.

            There are some big issues with this ‘cameron’ worship.

            If it’s to be run as an industry to replace dairy farming (or the industry of death if you’re a bit of a nut job), how will a cabbage or carrot equal prices of milk powder or added value goods on the world market?

            Who will work on these mega farms, given that produce growers in NZ already import workers because locals won’t for the shit money and conditions? Should winz beneficiaries be forced to don smocks and chew straw in back breaking work to satisfy an ideological driven agenda?

            If the idea of growing veges is to garner revenue equal to meat/dairy, that will have to include exporting worldwide. Aside from protectionist governments with import restrictions to protect there own markets, there is no environmental saving in shipping spuds over cattle, pigs and sheep products.

            • rawshark-yeshe 1.1.1.1.4.1
              2 December 2014 at 11:59 am

              There would be if we can commit to remain GM free and become the biggest organic food bowl in the world … premium products and prices and HEALTHY like food is supposed to be !!

              • weka …
                2 December 2014 at 1:49 pm

                “There would be if we can commit to remain GM free and become the biggest organic food bowl in the world … premium products and prices and HEALTHY like food is supposed to be !!”

                Except for the little matter of AGW. Even using organics, supplying for the export market is hugely carbon and energy intenstive. I don’t agree with Draco’s high tech version, but he’s right that we need to relocalise food production. Farmers need models where they can make a living growing food for NZ, not growing export commodities (export farming is inherently unsustainable even without AGW).

            • Draco T Bastard 1.1.1.1.4.2
              2 December 2014 at 1:13 pm

              and with our temperate climate and abundance of fertile land, become a food supplier to all nations in need.

              Nope. There isn’t enough of NZ to feed the world.

              Besides, I figure that with advances in vertical farming and similar practices that means even cities can grow all their own food within there borders relying on farming is rather stupid.

              As I keep saying, once a nation can supply everything it needs from it’s own people and resources trade no longer works. The export led recovery is in sharp decline because a lot of countries are now in that position or moving into that position. As an example, NZ exporting milk to the US is now out of the question as the US now produces more milk than we do.

              Who will work on these mega farms,

              Give it a few years and the answer will be nobody because there won’t be any mega farms left. It’ll be vertical farms within city boundaries planted and harvested by robot.

              Really, the best thing we could do with our farms now would be to start replanting them in native forest.

              • The Al1en …
                2 December 2014 at 1:29 pm

                “Nope. There isn’t enough of NZ to feed the world.”

                Obviously, which is why I never wrote it.

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  2 December 2014 at 5:05 pm

                  What you wrote is very ambiguous. Thing is, we wouldn’t even make a dent in most countries that need help with food.

                  • Skinny …
                    2 December 2014 at 5:58 pm

                    Yip your right there. If we slaughtered ‘all our livestock’ it would fill American tables for 3 days.

                    Meanwhile Sealords shed half it’s Nelson processing workforce. Just like whole logs to China so joins whole fish there.

                    About time we started talking the future of feeding our own Nation ahead of the rest of the World. I fear we will be out bid of supply.

              • phillip ure …
                2 December 2014 at 2:38 pm

                @ draco..

                ..i agree with much that you said..

                ..and a mix of re-forestation/localised-farming cd well b the future..

                ..one thing sure as hell..

                ..mega-dairy-farms won’t be..

                ..nobody will want that cancer/heart-disease+ -causing product..

                ..with the environmental-footprint of a wooly-mammoth..

                .from the other side of the planet..

                ..then of course..there is the impending arrival of mu-free..

                ..dairy farmers should be quaking in their wellies..,

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  2 December 2014 at 5:11 pm

                  Things like mu-free and artificial meat are going to be game changers as far as farming goes. Lots and lots of hectares will easily be turned back to wildlife as today’s farming practices go bankrupt.

                  • The Al1en …
                    2 December 2014 at 6:21 pm

                    You’re dreaming about lab grown food and drink, mate. Simple as that.

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      2 December 2014 at 6:29 pm

                      Oh please bring on the GMO meat fish vege GMO everything! It’s the way of the future and the only way to solve world hunger! We pretty pretty promise! – Monsanto PR

                    • The Al1en …
                      2 December 2014 at 6:36 pm

                      Yerp, and all land based food production will cease to exist as soon as we reach the space age roast beef flavoured pill, flying car era like in the Jetsons.

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      2 December 2014 at 7:34 pm

                      You’re dreaming about lab grown food and drink, mate. Simple as that.

                      It’s not a dream when it already exists.

                      Oh please bring on the GMO meat fish vege GMO everything!

                      Strange, I didn’t see anyone mentioning GMO food.

                    • The Al1en …
                      2 December 2014 at 7:42 pm

                      Perhaps I was ambiguous again. There’s no denial the crap exists, just that it won’t sell in numbers to end the dairy industry as we know it.
                      Case in point, how long have quorn and soy milk been around? People just don’t want it and you can’t force them to eat and drink lab grown sh1t if they don’t want to.

                      Having said that, you may well be right all along. Time will tell. Do you want to fix a time frame to your hope which we can revisit at a later date to see who’s got it spot on?

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      2 December 2014 at 8:55 pm

                      Soy milk has been around for awhile and people obviously want to drink it because a) It’s still on sale and b) it costs more than cow milk (Although it should actually cost less).

                      Your mention of quorn is disingenuous because we’re not talking about meat substitutes but actual meat grown in a lab. It’s got the same proteins, vitamins, minerals and taste as normal meat. It’s artificial only in that it wasn’t grown on an animal.

                    • The Al1en …
                      2 December 2014 at 9:01 pm

                      “Your mention of quorn is disingenuous because we’re not talking about meat substitutes but actual meat grown in a lab”

                      Stick those last six words on the label and watch it fly out the shops lol
                      You’re still dreaming mate, but when you have the numbers, feel free to gloat at my expense.

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      2 December 2014 at 9:07 pm

                      Sheeezus people, in the not too distant future meat is going to go back to the status it had in the first half of the 20th Century. Something you might get a few hundred grams of a week, if you were lucky. At least the incidence of bowel cancer is going to drop.

                      This lab grown protein shite – good luck with that. The corporates are going to control that technology for corporate profit.

                    • McFlock …
                      2 December 2014 at 9:10 pm

                      I dunno.
                      someone with a lab-grown heart or lung might not be opposed to a lab steak

                • Achtung_baby …
                  3 December 2014 at 2:09 pm

                  Mr Phil Ure, what you need is a beer and good plate of steak and chips to give you strength. The vegan diet has made you weak, far too weak.

            • Naki man 1.1.1.1.4.3
              2 December 2014 at 2:02 pm

              Excellent post, The Al1en I think you have spoiled that vege growing fantasy.
              Milk powder is a value added product, nutritional powders even more so.
              I wouldn’t trade in a job in the dairy industry sitting in a $1000 chair earning a generous salary to chew straw doing back breaking work for shit money and conditions.

          • Naki man 1.1.1.1.5
            2 December 2014 at 2:55 pm

            I hate to break it to you phil but James Cameron can play with his crops because he has other income and any real dairy farmer who converted a valuable dairy farm into a cabbage patch would be bankrupt over night.
            Maths is obviously not your strong point.

      • Colonial Rawshark 1.1.2
        2 December 2014 at 7:34 am

        the unwillingness to control farm asset price bubbles is related to spiralling house prices. And yes, the banks are at the centre of the problem. Controlling the banks is not brain science. It is a simple matter of political will and political execution. And its not like this is a new problem.

        The NZ govt did it a century ago, in a series of moves which eventually led to the creation of the Rural Bank.

  2. Paul 2
    2 December 2014 at 7:04 am

    Shameful.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/63722141/Child-poverty-declines-but-inequality-still-high

    ‘One in four Kiwi children live in poverty – where their parents don’t have enough money to pay bills and purchase everyday essentials – and one in 10 are in severe poverty.
    About 17 per cent of children regularly go without what most New Zealanders would consider “essentials”, such as fruit, vegetables, and good shoes.
    Three in five children in poverty will likely remain in poverty for most of their childhood.
    Almost half of children living in the poorest areas of New Zealand live in a crowded home. Of all children, 47 per cent Pasifika children, 25 per cent of Maori children, and 21 per cent of Asian/Indian children live in crowded homes, compared to just 5 per cent of European children. Household crowding has been linked to meningococcal disease and acute rheumatic fever in children.
    Child poverty has not always been this bad – child poverty in New Zealand 30 years ago was at 14 per cent.’

    • chris73 2.1
      2 December 2014 at 7:11 am

      The second annual Child Poverty Monitor showed a slight decrease in the number of Kiwi children living in income poverty, from 27 per cent to 24 per cent. However, there was still much to address in terms of health impacts, the researchers said.

      – So the rate has dropped a little over 10% but its not good because…National?

      • mickysavage 2.1.1
        2 December 2014 at 7:12 am

        It is not good because … child poverty is endemic.

        • chris73 2.1.1.1
          2 December 2014 at 7:21 am

          Its not good from the left point of view because all the bad press built up by Labour can be ended in article showing child poverty rates dropping under National

          Just like John Key said they would…or at least thats the message the general public will take from this

          • felix 2.1.1.1.1
            2 December 2014 at 7:34 am

            It’s not good for dickheads like you who have spent six years telling everyone there’s no poverty in NZ.

            That goes for your mates Farrar, Key, Bennett et al.

            • Dave 2.1.1.1.1.1
              2 December 2014 at 10:31 pm

              so, you once again shoot the messenger Felix. I will agree, there is no REAL chlid poverty in NZ, only statistical poverty, due to how thre stats are worked.

              Ther eis however plenty of Poor Choices made that leads to a less than desirable position, and Child Neglect. These choices stem from very poor decision making, poor parenting leading to failures at school and then in life. Its a failure of individuals, not of the state. This occurs under any government th eowrld over, except with communism when after they run out of other peoples money, (just like socialism) the majority of the people are living in poverty.

              An example. Mary is four years old, she is excited to be having a visit from her godfather (Pete), her parents friend through school, the successful one in their group of friends. After he arrived, and time went by, Mary proudly exclaimed she had started Kindergarten. “oh what do you want to do when you grow up Pete asked, I’m going to be Prime Minister, and feed and give houses to the homeless people and beggers she exclaimed. her parents beamed wit hpride, adding, she is a socialist like us Pete. So Pete said, “why wait till you grow up Mary, you can help feed the homeless now, and help find them homes now. Her parents looked really shocked. How asked Mary. Pete replied, well Mary, next time your parents bring you to visit, you can help me to weed the yard, and plant the flowers you like, and i can pay you $50 for helping, and you can give it to the homeless guy who lives in the park near you, it could pay for his food for almost a week. Her parents looked shocked now, a 4 year old working!! Then Mary exclaimed. Hold on Unca Pete, why dont you get the homeless guy to come over and pull out the weeds and you can give him the $50 yourself. Welcome to the liberals / national Mary replied Pete.

              A story that might be, but i have witnessed first hand a poorly educated parent work to cater and feed her kids. I have witnessed a family work three jobs between 2 parents in factories just to put their kids through a good education – THEIR CHOICE.

              Poverty, NO, poor choices ……….. ever time in the western world, just look back and you will find terrible choices. To those who honestly believe ther eis poverty in NZ, stop whinging, invite those in poverty into your home.

              • felix …
                2 December 2014 at 10:41 pm

                That’s nice.

                Now answer the question that chris couldn’t: If there was never any poverty, how can it be falling?

                • Dave …
                  2 December 2014 at 10:51 pm

                  Hmmm remedial reading perhaps Felix. Top para, 2nd line, starting with: Statistical……..

                  Last Para, starting with: To those ……..

                  Maybe that was a poor choice of yours too Felix ? 🙂

                  • felix …
                    2 December 2014 at 11:22 pm

                    It’s like you’ve got an IQ, but it’s only a statistical IQ.

                    Sorry Dave, I don’t fall for doublethink. You say there’s no such thing as poverty in NZ, so that’s that.

                    You don’t get to then sing the praises of the govt for lowering something that you say doesn’t exist.

                    • Dave …
                      3 December 2014 at 12:26 pm

                      Once again Felix, your short on facts, and short on think, and you resort to insulting anyone with a factual and differing opinion to you. The sheer fact is, go look at some other countries, somalia, some of the africian or even european countries, there you will find real poverty. Its used in NZ as a tool by the extreme left to beat up a government.

                    • Dave …
                      3 December 2014 at 12:26 pm

                      Once again Felix, your short on facts, and short on think, and you resort to insulting anyone with a factual and differing opinion to you. The sheer fact is, go look at some other countries, somalia, some of the africian or even european countries, there you will find real poverty. Its used in NZ as a tool by the extreme left to beat up a government.

                    • greywarshark …
                      3 December 2014 at 12:39 pm

                      If you find it so satisfactory Dave over there in Africa, why not go and live there and enjoy it. We in our turn will go on trying to bring NZ up to the level that would be expected in a modern and reasonably prosperous nation with a commitment to equality, fairness, opportunity for income growth and human rights.

                    • felix …
                      3 December 2014 at 1:01 pm

                      Sorry for insulting you Dave. That was wrong of me.

                      Anyway, you’ve convinced me with your faultless analysis and compelling allegory. I 100% agree with you that there’s no poverty in NZ, because Somalia is worse.

                      I take it you are opposed to oil exploration in NZ too, Dave. You see there’s no oil in NZ, because Arabia has more.

                      There’s also no violence in NZ, because Iraq.

                      In fact there’s no crime at all in NZ, because Russia.

                      And there’s no sunshine in NZ, because Fiji.

                      Anyhow, now that we agree there’s no poverty and never was, let’s you and I join in condemning the govt for claiming they’ve reduced something that never existed, taxpayer’s money blah blah.

                    • Tracey …
                      3 December 2014 at 1:08 pm

                      Plus 1 felix…

                      I thought i almost heard a head exploding…

              • McFlock …
                2 December 2014 at 10:45 pm

                you do realise that something like 40% of kids living in poverty are the kids of parents who work for a living?

                The difference between tories and liberals is that tories make up cute stories, whereas liberals have the data to back up their claims.

                “statistical poverty, due to how thre stats are worked”? Fuck off – if you’re going to accuse MSD, Treasury, and statsNZ all of deliberately lying for decades, at least be honest enough to say it out loud.

          • tricledrown 2.1.1.1.2
            2 December 2014 at 10:47 am

            C73 they are still above 2008 rates mate and are likely to trend back up as house prices and electricity prices continue to rise.
            Commodity prices are falling so unemplyment will rise so will child poverty!

            • The lost sheep 2.1.1.1.2.1
              2 December 2014 at 11:00 am

              The data shows a steady decline in CP from 2001 through to 2008.
              There was an upswing during the time of the GEC, but since 2010 it has been tracking back down again.

              Some have claimed that CP is dramatically increasing, but the data simply does not back that up.

              • McFlock …
                2 December 2014 at 2:33 pm

                Some have claimed that CP is dramatically increasing, but the data simply does not back that up.

                care to back up that claim?

                And what was the rate in 1990?

                • The lost sheep …
                  2 December 2014 at 3:02 pm

                  I posted the link to the data below. Here it is again.

                  As you will see, in 1992 CP was higher than it is now.

                  http://www.nzchildren.co.nz/document_downloads/B.%202014%20CPM%20Child%20Poverty%20and%20Living%20Standards.pdf

                  • McFlock …
                    2 December 2014 at 3:06 pm

                    no, who’s claimed that CP is dramatically increasing?

                    And it might be lower than the height of ruthenasia, but what was it in 1990?

                    • The lost sheep …
                      2 December 2014 at 3:38 pm

                      Sorry, misread. Yes, 1990 was lower, prior to Ruth’s ‘adjustments’

                      But since the peak of 1992, the trend has been steadily downwards. That’s a fact that does make a significant difference to the discussion on inequality.

                      Just browse this blog or google ‘Child poverty getting worse’ for all the variations on the current narrative.

                    • McFlock …
                      2 December 2014 at 3:46 pm

                      Steadily downwards?
                      That’s a mighty bumpy line to use the word “steadily” on.

                      And still nowhere near the pre-ruthenasia levels.

                      But go on, your assertion was that “some have claimed that CP is dramatically increasing”.

                      Now you’ve become more focussed and implied that these claims have been on this blog. Kindly provide an example of a post at TS claiming that child poverty is dramatically increasing when it was not, if the examples are so trivial to find.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      2 December 2014 at 4:09 pm

                      Great detail but it’s still all bullshit of course.

                      This is about living amongst a political, social and economic elite who are willing to spend $1B plus per month buying up AKL real estate, but trying to find $0.1B to tackle child poverty in AKL is just too damn hard.

                    • The lost sheep …
                      2 December 2014 at 5:07 pm

                      Quick site search and grab the first thing i see…..it’s pretty typical of the ‘things are getting worse narrative’. Or just look on this thread for the veiled threats about the figures being deceptive / understated etc.

                      But lets not get diverted from the real point here. CP has been on a general downward trend since 1992. That’s better than going backwards.

                      “Child Poverty
                      The facade: poverty has flatlined,….

                      The Reality: Maori and Pasifika families have suffered more than others with the median household incomes dropping considerably over the last few years. Inequality is growing faster in New Zealand than most OECD countries. New Zealand has amongst the worst statistics (29th out of 30) for the health and welfare of children.”

                    • McFlock …
                      2 December 2014 at 5:38 pm

                      So now you’ve made an even more focussed claim, that people in this very thread have provided examples of claims “that CP is dramatically increasing”.

                      Which comments in this thread have made that claim? I must have missed them. Feel free to back up your claim with evidence.

              • greywarshark …
                3 December 2014 at 1:59 pm

                the lost sheep
                You poor dear. You have that cognitive disability that the Japanese evaders had after the end of WW2 and they were still hiding in the hinterland. When they opened their eyes and looked around, things were so different. It takes a while to put the pieces together and see it with today’s eyes not the ones you have had since you can first remember. Or then, perhaps you actually need some glasses so you can see today clearly.

                I fear that you’ll be another that will be arguing that an Arab can’t live on a grain of rice a day. And never understand what that refers to, and the connections of thought linking to your own not so good self and why it’s relevant.

          • greywarshark 2.1.1.1.3
            2 December 2014 at 5:36 pm

            @ chris73
            Callous RW. Argue about the tiny change in awfully bad statistical numbers, It’s easier than thinking about the subject of the stats, the parents and children being dragged down by government’s lack of any concern about them as people. While Ann Tolley on Radionz this morning waffled around what ‘poverty’ actually meant – it’s all relative. I bet not many of her relatives are living on noodles.

      • Paul 2.1.2
        2 December 2014 at 7:15 am

        You would defend anything.
        Even kids’ health is a political football to sociopaths like you.
        As you are owning to say, it’s a game.
        It is not a game for these kids.

        Listen to what the experts are saying.

        ‘Child Poverty Action Group health spokesperson Dr Nikki Turner said the study showed “far too many” children were living in poverty and bold action was needed. “This problem is too difficult to be addressed by piecemeal measures – substantial commitment is needed to improve incomes and housing for families with children,” she said.

        The group suggested introducing child poverty legislation to ensure “proper, regular measurement of child poverty”, combined with annual targets and timelines.’

        • chris73 2.1.2.1
          2 December 2014 at 7:19 am

          So assuming we want to drop the rate child poverty and the rate of child poverty has dropped it would seem to be a good thing

          Ah but of course its dropping under John Key and National so its not good

          • mickysavage 2.1.2.1.1
            2 December 2014 at 7:26 am

            Child poverty statistics are still terrible. One in four kids lives in poverty. One in ten lives in abject poverty. 40,000 were hospitalised with third world diseases. What is there to celebrate?

            • chris73 2.1.2.1.1.1
              2 December 2014 at 7:30 am

              That the stats are dropping, that the stats are going in the right direction? Would you prefer they were going the other way?

              Same old tired left wing thinking, before the election its child poverty increasing and after the election it appears to be falling, theres a crisis in *for example manufacturing* and it turns out to be going better

              But hey you’ve still got dirty politics I suppose

              • Colonial Rawshark …
                2 December 2014 at 7:39 am

                felix makes a good point – do you now agree that poverty in NZ is rampant and common, especially amongst pasifika and Maori families?

                  • Colonial Rawshark …
                    2 December 2014 at 8:07 am

                    what do you mean no? In your view is the fall in child poverty a major National Govt achievement or is it not?

                  • felix …
                    2 December 2014 at 12:36 pm

                    Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one’s mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them.

                    To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just as long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies – all this is indispensably necessary.

                    Even in using the word doublethink it is necessary to exercise doublethink. For by using the word one admits that one is tampering with reality; by a fresh act of doublethink one erases this knowledge; and so on indefinitely, with the lie always one leap ahead of the truth.

                    That’s what chris73 does here every day.
                    It’s what Key does in parliament and in every interview.
                    It’s what the staff in his office do all day.
                    It’s how Farrar and Slater live.

                    These fuckers have taken Orwell’s work as an instruction manual.

            • felix 2.1.2.1.1.2
              2 December 2014 at 7:31 am

              chris and his mates have been telling us there’s no poverty in NZ for the last six years.

              How can it be dropping?

              • chris73 …
                2 December 2014 at 7:37 am

                Serious question before I go off to work:

                Does the left want NZ to be doing better while Nationals in power or would the left prefer NZ to be doing worse under National

                I ask this because its obviously easier to to get back into power when the country is doing worse and the left do seem to be spending a lot of time and effort saying how badly NZ is doing and then coming up short eg the manufacturing crisis (I’d do more but I have to get to work)

                • Paul …
                  2 December 2014 at 7:41 am

                  Sociopath.
                  Look it up while you are at work.

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  2 December 2014 at 2:50 pm

                  Actually, we’re saying how badly NZ is doing because NZ is doing badly and it’s getting worse under National as per normal. What we see in the slightly improved child poverty statistics is a slight, localised, improvement before National’s policies really kick in crashing the economy.

                • McFlock …
                  2 December 2014 at 2:50 pm

                  That’s a stupid question.

                  The tide has been in for thirty years, people are drowning, and you’re saying ‘oh, but this wave is slightly smaller than the last one, King Keynute is such a powerful and brilliant leader of the nation’.

                  • BM …
                    2 December 2014 at 3:19 pm

                    NZ economy was fucked 30 years ago.

                    We didn’t have carless days because we were all so concerned for the environment.

                    I remember when I was in high school and my economics teacher telling the class to not bother saving because money would be worthless in a couple of years.

                    • McFlock …
                      2 December 2014 at 3:24 pm

                      we had carless days in 1990?

                    • BM …
                      2 December 2014 at 3:31 pm

                      1981 we did.

                      2014-30 =1984;

                    • McFlock …
                      2 December 2014 at 3:40 pm

                      Good for you, you can do math.

                      So how is child poverty compared to 1984?

                    • BM …
                      2 December 2014 at 3:47 pm

                      Back then I knew a few kids that ate pet food and basically wore rags, there’s probably a few who do the same these days.

                      I’d say it’s about the same.

                      Domestic violence and kiddie fiddling would be way down these days though, you just can’t get away with that sort of behavior now.

                    • McFlock …
                      2 December 2014 at 4:12 pm

                      Sorry, I forgot that you personally knew everything that happened in NZ. Not need for evidence when you have anecdata, eh?

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      2 December 2014 at 4:49 pm

                      We had car-less days because we were far too dependent upon outside energy, i.e, we’re were far too dependent upon trade. It’s got worse over the last few decades.

                    • weka …
                      2 December 2014 at 5:03 pm

                      “NZ economy was fucked 30 years ago.”

                      What was the unemployment rate?

                    • Murray Rawshark …
                      3 December 2014 at 12:23 am

                      That’s funny. I’m just thinking of the kids who did economics when I was at school. Basically the ones who didn’t have the fine motor skills to do woodwork, and insufficient grey matter to do anything else. I suppose it kept you out of Brownlee’s grasp at least. BM is right.

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      3 December 2014 at 12:39 am

                      Back then I knew a few kids that ate pet food and basically wore rags, there’s probably a few who do the same these days.

                      I’d say it’s about the same.

                      There are 250K to 300K children living in poverty in what is a very wealthy country. Time to reinstate benefits and wages to a livable level – like they were in 1981 – 1984.

                • Tracey …
                  3 December 2014 at 1:12 pm

                  You avoided answering felixs question on the pretext you were going to work… Yet still posting below at 7:42

                  Selective much?

              • Paul …
                2 December 2014 at 7:39 am

                My original post said shameful.
                These statistics about poverty are shameful for our country.
                This issue should be above politics.
                For c73 nothing is sacrosanct.

              • phillip ure …
                2 December 2014 at 7:39 am

                that child/product of neo-liberalism/the me-me!-generation..chris 73..

                ..our local thoroughly-modern tory..

                ..he clearly couldn’t fucken care less about childhood deaths from poverty..

                ..it’s just another excuse/reason for him to play word-games/tr*ll..

                ..eh..?..you vile/scum-sucking piece of shit…

                • phillip ure …
                  2 December 2014 at 7:45 am

                  and of course let us not use up all our contempt on these tory pricks..

                  ..leave some for the uncaring/arbeit macht frei! scumbag fucken labour politicians..

                  ..many of whom still preach/yearn for even more neo-liberalism..

                  ..and wd do as little as the tories do..

                  ..to end this ‘source of all evil’..poverty..

                  ..a pox on their fucken houses..!..too..!

              • miravox …
                2 December 2014 at 7:57 am

                The government wouldn’t know if there is any child poverty seeing as Bennett found measuring it strangely funny.

                I can’t see that anyone who agreed with that should be taking any notice of a report in lieu of government measures that has been done by organisations who take child poverty seriously.

              • mac1 …
                2 December 2014 at 10:36 am

                Felix, basic National politics- no child poverty when figures are rising, to reappear when figures seem to be dropping.

                This is why we actually don’t produce dairy products or grow timber, but we do produce meat.

                Of course, the fact that dairy product prices are dropping is ‘contestable’ and there was no last week in politics………………….

            • Paul 2.1.2.1.1.3
              2 December 2014 at 7:33 am

              It is simply not worth debating any issues with c73.
              Better to discuss amongst ourselves what a progressive government would do to solve the problem.

              My suggestions.
              1. Higher basic pay rates a universal basic income.
              2. Minimum standards for housing.
              3. Food in schools.

              • chris73 …
                2 December 2014 at 7:42 am

                Thanks for that tr**l

                Sorry to point out that child poverty has dropped by 10%

                • The lost sheep …
                  2 December 2014 at 7:56 am

                  Have any of you read the report itself?

                  The data does prove that since 2001 there has been a downward trend.

                  http://www.nzchildren.co.nz/document_downloads/B.%202014%20CPM%20Child%20Poverty%20and%20Living%20Standards.pdf

                  • felix …
                    2 December 2014 at 8:02 am

                    chris doesn’t believe there is any poverty in NZ.

                    He simultaneously believes that poverty is dropping dramatically.

                    I think we can safely discount the idea that he has read anything other than the talking points that get emailed to him every morning.

                  • Molly …
                    2 December 2014 at 8:24 am

                    The data from Child Poverty Monitor seems to have been cobbled together from a variety of sources, including hospital admissions and discharge information and the 2009 NZ Tobacco Use Survey. Both self provided information and prone to participant error.

                    The Deprivation Index works solely on income, and not on disposable income after expenses are paid. An aspect that I would think would underestimate rather than overestimate those in financial difficulty.

                    Until the census itself has some form of questions that measure income to expenses, then we will not really have a good indication of what level of poverty is being experienced on the ground.

                    We have a Minister that thought the idea of collecting this type of data to be laughable and so we will continue to operate under a cloud of whether it does exist, and how much instead of “let’s do something about it”.

                    • Ergo Robertina …
                      3 December 2014 at 9:15 pm

                      Hospital admissions stats would come straight from DHBs, rather than being self-reported.
                      I think a report like this is inevitably cobbled from many sources, but the problem (and the monitor seems one of the better ones) is that we haven’t developed a culture in NZ of making such reports accessible to the public in language or format. It takes effort, and there just isn’t the ethos. I am amazed sometimes reading public reports from the UK, which are often linked from news stories these days, at the bright and sharp language in them and how information is broken down. A world away from the turgid dross we get from the likes of the health ministry, or dhb-land.
                      I agree with your point over a lack of source data, too, but given its inevitable complexity presentation is really important.
                      I do wonder re the 60% median wage poverty measure whether it creates a fair comparison with the early 1980s, given that inequality was so much less then, it seems like the wrong measure.

            • Naki man 2.1.2.1.1.4
              2 December 2014 at 2:33 pm

              “Child poverty statistics are still terrible. One in four kids lives in poverty. One in ten lives in abject poverty. 40,000 were hospitalised with third world diseases. What is there to celebrate?’

              We also have delinquent parents who abuse their children by putting coke in their babies bottles and spending their benefit money on boxes of codys
              instead of feeding their kids. The state cant spoon feed and wipe the arse of all the abused children. I would like to see a law against pregnant women smoking and drinking. These kids with fetal alcohol syndrome are screwed from day 1.

              • McFlock …
                2 December 2014 at 2:45 pm

                so the state can’t spoon feed all abused children, but can restrain all pregnant women who might smoke or drink.

                Such an interesting view of the state you have.

                • Naki man …
                  2 December 2014 at 3:17 pm

                  “so the state can’t spoon feed all abused children, but can restrain all pregnant women who might smoke or drink”

                  No unfortunately the state cant restrain all the pregnant women who smoke and drink, but there needs to be some deterrent. It sickens me they way some ignorant people abuse their children

        • phillip ure 2.1.2.2
          2 December 2014 at 7:26 am

          the guardian has an interesting piece on this today..

          “..Shocking evidence of the effects of austerity in Britain –

          – is being met with a silence that suggests a dangerous indifference..”

          ..there..as here…the tories just don’t fucken care..

          ..the poor can just rot..as far as they are concerned…

          http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/dec/01/poverty-deadly-evidence-austerity-britain

          ..and of course here in nz..our institutional-racism plays a large part..

          “..Rates for deaths from medical conditions relating to socioeconomic status were more than three times higher for Maori – and more than four times higher for Pacific –

          – compared to European children..”

          ..how can those stark facts/realities not have us all hanging our heads in collective-shame..

          ..and funny story..!..officially we are one of the wealthiest countries in the world..

          ..and with our ‘rock star economy’..

          ..but we do nothing to fix that..

          ..’cos..it seems clear..we don’t ‘care’ enough..eh..?

          ..;cos our political-leaders are only doing what their polling tells them we want..

          ..eh..?

      • Tracey 2.1.3
        3 December 2014 at 1:05 pm

        How? National says it cant be measured?

  3. phillip ure 3
    2 December 2014 at 7:21 am

    key flying this anzac-bullshit..

    ..talking about our ‘good friends’ in australia..

    ..yeah..our ‘good friends’ who treat nz’ers as guest-workers…

    ..pull the other one..john…

    • Paul 3.1
      2 December 2014 at 7:35 am

      Using the ANZAC tradition to promote future war.
      Ugly, even for Key.

      • b waghorn 3.1.1
        2 December 2014 at 6:36 pm

        Certainly seems like a new low to use dead men’s ghosts to push your agenda .

        • Paul 3.1.1.1
          2 December 2014 at 6:41 pm

          Key, Abbott, Harper, Bush and Cameron should read this article.

          Highlights…

          ‘This year, I will wear a poppy for the last time
          I will remember friends and comrades in private next year, as the solemnity of remembrance has been twisted into a justification for conflict.’

          ‘ I will no longer allow my obligation as a veteran to remember those who died in the great wars to be co-opted by current or former politicians to justify our folly in Iraq, our morally dubious war on terror and our elimination of one’s right to privacy.’

          Full article below.

          http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/08/poppy-last-time-remembrance-harry-leslie-smith

      • Tracey 3.1.2
        3 December 2014 at 1:17 pm

        Didnt willie apiata get a vc last time we only went somewhere to train the locals?!?

  4. Skinny 4
    2 December 2014 at 7:47 am

    I for one find it insulting that Crap Happy Key try and insight this Kiwi patriotic nonsense using the ANZAC spirit. There was no glory in what happened to our young men who were mere porns to be served up as cannon fodder on foreign soil.

    Trying to invoke National pride by using the ANZAC strip, sending our troops to a war zone is an insult to the dead. This is all about pleasing the Americans by engaging us in their stupid wars. Let’s march in the streets ‘no more wars.’

    • idlegus 4.1
      2 December 2014 at 11:30 am

      perhaps he thinks the invasion was ‘peaceful’? (heavy sarc & bad taste)

    • greywarshark 4.2
      2 December 2014 at 12:22 pm

      Yes Skinny I’m sick of all this war porn too.

    • A Voter 4.3
      2 December 2014 at 2:22 pm

      Yes a full scale KIWI SPRING would do it if we werent a bunch of morons for allowing Key to sell us this bullshit in the first place
      But who cares its over there its not Rugby or an Asian war or Fiji or Timor even though Key is really startin to piss the Moslems off here too
      Getting dangerous

  5. felix 5
    2 December 2014 at 8:10 am

    Geez Tony, I’m a bit stumped. They gave away their energy infrastructure, and they’re pretty sweet with giving their agricultural base away, but I just don’t seem to be able to get them excited about going to the middle east to kill Arabs…

    • tc 5.1
      2 December 2014 at 10:45 am

      No worries cobbah, we’ve just removed all our petrol production due to the cheaper stuff from china as it’s a by product of all the diesel they make for their generators.

      a month long warfies strike should let me slip a few beauties through whilst the V8’s run dry.

  6. Sabine 6
    2 December 2014 at 8:16 am

    rock a round the clock
    it sure is rocking somewhere in NZ.

    I am curious as to the christmas sales number this year.
    The large box office stores have been on permanent discount mode, summer is late etc. etc. etc.

    [lprent: Off topic. Moved to OpenMike. ]

    • Sabine 6.1
      2 December 2014 at 7:17 pm

      not sure why this was moved. The economy is rocking for the end consumer as much as it is for dairy farmer.

      fact is that the end consumer is running out of money, and that Christmas is a make or break time for many small to medium sized retail outlet, I could not find data from previous years, but I really would like to know if where the trend line is? going up or done?

      The super retailer have been on permanent discounts (i.e. Farmers 50% off), summer is late….how is that affecting the oh so important Christmas sales?
      With no to little sales in january as the country is on a month long vacation, it would be interesting to see how a bad Christmas Period will affect the start of the new year.

      There is more to economy than the dairy industry.

  7. Molly 7
    2 December 2014 at 8:35 am

    How many times is Nick Smith going to have his photo taken at this development?

    Everytime a pseudo solution or passing thought on affordable houses is press released to the Herald, some National MP is taken with this pastel background of blue and purple to show how munificent National is. They not only provide housing – they pretty it up.

    If only they could manage to look like they would be happy to live there, instead of looking embarrassed or ready to go over the horizon as soon as possible.

  8. weka 8
    2 December 2014 at 10:25 am

    Is that Andrew Little with a halo?

    • ankerawshark 8.1
      2 December 2014 at 10:51 am

      Weka @ 8 It should be Little with a halo imo. He’s nailed it again by saying Cameron Slater is sociopathic (or a phrase to that effect) and JK is still staying friends with him because Slater knows his secrets. AL doing a brilliant job of articulating the problem.

      • mac1 8.1.1
        2 December 2014 at 11:13 am

        http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/andrew-little-cameron-slater-s-sociopath-knows-john-key-secrets-6183813

        Andrew Little tells it like it is! How refreshing. There is a video of Little on the Breakfast show on the website as well.

        • weka 8.1.1.1
          2 December 2014 at 11:51 am

          Thanks anker and mac, I don’t watch tv so it’s great to have these reports.

          That’s bold of Little to call Slater a sociopath, quite an awesome piece of speaking truth to power to go on national television and say that Key should have nothing to do with a known sociopath and its very poor judgement that he does.

          Let’s see what the media do now, because they have to be looking at themselves and going, wait, what? someone (the leader of the opposition) just called this man we’ve been giving credibility to a sociopath, er, what do we do now?

          This also explains the advisor that Little got in (the one with the thesis on narcissism).

          • felix 8.1.1.1.1
            2 December 2014 at 12:15 pm

            Slater isn’t the only narcissist that Little has to deal with…

            • ankerawshark 8.1.1.1.1.1
              2 December 2014 at 12:22 pm

              Yes I was puzzled/intrigued by the expert on narcissism. I am sure we can all think of politicians who would fit this bill.

              Msm. showed Cunliffe when they were reporting this on tv3.

              IMO Judith C is full blown NPD.

      • Tracey 8.1.2
        3 December 2014 at 1:19 pm

        I think its time for AL to back off the slater key thing now. Hes planted the liar liar pants on fire, too arogant to say sorry and scared to reveal the texts seeds… Now move on to address every day lives

  9. marty mars 9
    2 December 2014 at 10:44 am

    One of the reasons I enjoy JMG’s essays is that often he articulates a view that turns my understanding and beliefs upside down. The ability to really see outside the square we are in is a gift and to be able to succinctly write about it in a way that is understandable and palatable is amazing.

    Modern science, the core intellectual project of the contemporary industrial world, and technological complexification, its core cultural project, are as subject to these same two vulnerabilities as were the corresponding projects of other civilizations. Yes, I’m aware that this is a controversial claim, but I’d argue that it follows necessarily from the nature of both projects…

    Thus the end of the age of fossil-fueled extravagance means the coming of a period in which science and technology will have a very hard row to hoe, with each existing or proposed project having to compete for a slice of a shrinking pie of resources against many other equally urgent needs…

    It has to be remembered that science and technology are social enterprises. They don’t happen by themselves in some sort of abstract space insulated from the grubby realities of human collective life. Laboratories, institutes, and university departments are social constructs, funded and supported by the wider society. That funding and support doesn’t happen by accident; it exists because the wider society believes that the labors of scientists and engineers will further its own collective goals and projects…

    http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.co.nz/2014/11/dark-age-america-suicide-of-science.html

    Food for thought.

    • Colonial Viper 9.1
      2 December 2014 at 5:00 pm

      JMG is brilliant and insightful. And not unlike The Standard, the comments on his blog are often just as informative and thought provoking as the main posts. He maintains a very tough stance towards moderating comments…

  10. Molly 10
    2 December 2014 at 10:44 am

    Russell Brand has George Mon-bee-oh talking about the TTIP.

    Monbiot on David Cameron: “They take him out and polish him three times a day”

  11. greywarshark 11
    2 December 2014 at 12:25 pm

    I noted the other day that Andrew Little put one of our malefactors second to Kim Dotcom. That seemed pretty damning of him. I think Kim deserves a little fairer consideration in the context of the USA and its media and their attempt at stranglehold of everything and huge reaction to Snowden and Assange. The Russians must smile at goody-goody USA running their own skull and crossbones up the sliding-scale flagpole of human rights violations.
    edited

  12. paddy 12
    2 December 2014 at 12:36 pm

    Andrew Little is impressive.

  13. Draco T Bastard 13
    2 December 2014 at 12:47 pm

    Campaign for council to own most of Vector

    But there’s interesting things about this campaign:

    John Collinge, a former National Party president and past chair of the Auckland Electric Power Board, is one of those wanting the council to now take over the trust assets.

    But none seems keen on becoming the voice of what is still a very low-level campaign, mentioned occasionally by another former National Party president Michelle Boag, and not discounted by past Auckland city mayor and National MP Christine Fletcher, a current Auckland councillor.

    Like, why is it that only people who belong to National are even suggesting the idea? IMO, it’d be part of the Great Asset Sell Off that National are still engaging in despite saying they aren’t. As soon as they become council owned they can be sold off whereas, as a trust, they can’t be.

  14. Northsider 14
    2 December 2014 at 12:59 pm

    TAX EVASION is at an epidemic level.
    Household Income Distribution graphic published in yesterdays Herald is a revelation to me. One can see the average household income down to street level and I see TAX EVASION at an epidemic level.

    I’ve looked at a group of streets in an Auckland suburb that I know well. These have 600k to 800k houses that are about 8+ years old. They have one or two OK cars in the drive way. They are couples with children, some going to fee paying schools.
    AND over 50% of those households are recorded as having household incomes of less than $20k, less that $30k, or less that $50k.

    Life is “good” for many outside of the PAYE system.

    Have a look at your street and tell us what conclusions you reach.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11366790

    • A Voter 14.1
      2 December 2014 at 2:10 pm

      Yes mate you are onto it I just wonder if there is any salvation in being honest
      “No one who ever made money made it honestly ”
      Very old KIWI proverb

      • greywarshark 14.1.1
        2 December 2014 at 3:19 pm

        @ A Voter 15
        Key’s slogan is America Made Me. God Bless America.

        and A Voter 13.1
        The tone of your comment almost sounds like a deliberate RW ploy hoping to get some whiney comments from the imagined useless left.

        Where did this come from – ‘Very old Kiwi proverb that ‘“No one who ever made money made it honestly’?’ There are plenty of good honest hard working business people and wage workers in the past who used to do all right if they kept away from that government honey trap, alcohol, which is a large revenue gatherer for the gubmint.

        Unfortunately money earners got overrun by the people who went for neo lib crap and who come out with whingey, negative stuff like that. They are the ones no doubt who have large homes and low tax revenues. To them that is being smart, not tax evasion, but tax avoidance. One of the USA Presidents managed to pay no income tax one year I think. That set a good example for other (moneyed) usa citizens to follow.

    • Tracey 14.2
      3 December 2014 at 1:22 pm

      Meanwhile, there is a discussion about whether we do or dont have poverty… And if we can pay to help, as tolley puts it, those “small lives”…

  15. The Al1en 15
    2 December 2014 at 1:28 pm

    Best I can do mix. Justice for Ella.

    Flame on https://soundcloud.com/theal1en/flame-on

  16. A Voter 16
    2 December 2014 at 1:54 pm

    The latest attempt at political mileage by Key by announcing the great ANZAC reformation -what a pathetic attempt to curry favour
    Personally his fucking lot had no part in the NZ misery that resulted from the 1st WW because his family wasnt even in this country so he should not presume to represent us in that way in regards to the ISIS situation of which his only interest is his ZIONIST commitment to Israel
    I would gladly join the NZ military if Key put himself on the line as a
    front line leader of battle but not to support him just end the misery for us all before it gets any worse
    This is Keys deluded grandiose Vietnam type commitment of NZ to
    a war that is really GW Bush’s problem he created it he should pay for it and Key should do the same
    Its Americas attempt to finally secure the territory from Israel to Turkey and across to Greece and Iran so that Russia does not secure all the oil
    This is a ZIONIST WAR which ISIS will eventually be the pawns even though they are being talked up as the threat a load of rot ISIS could be gone tomorrow if Obama choose to do it and completely annihilate the threat which Bush was sloppy about last time
    Israel and its Zionists are the problem thats why the arabs in this situation will never give in
    Iraq is a beaten mess which will probably never recover, an extension of the miserable situation of Palestine and Gaza
    Key should just be honest and get to fuk out of that mess
    But he just cant do it his ego just wont let him

  18. Anne 18
    2 December 2014 at 2:57 pm

    Yet again police show they have two standards – one for govt. and another for opposition parties.

    The Greens asked police to investigate Ede’s accessing of Labour’s membership data base in conjunction with Slater. The police say NO, because the matter is being dealt with in response to a complaint from Labour ( taking their time!) plus… the Greens other complaints in respect of Dirty Politics don’t meet the threshold of criminality. Oh yeah?

    How long ago were those complaints laid? Two to three months ago? Has Ede, Slater had their computers and related equipment seized? NO. Yet they were raiding Nicky Hager within days (almost) of a complaint from National.

    Blatant partisanship in my book.

  19. just saying 19
    2 December 2014 at 3:10 pm

    I just got an email from the select committee inviting me to make a supplementary submission on the countering terrorism bill. I’ve never been invited to add to a submission I’ve already made before. Seems odd.

    I guess the focus groups told them that 24-hours to submit was going too far even for Mr and Ms Jo( More-Interested-in Cooking-Competitions) Public.

    • Tracey 19.1
      3 December 2014 at 1:25 pm

      I got the same email. They, in my experience, always make the offer in acknowledgement emails.

  20. weka 20
    2 December 2014 at 3:42 pm

    Can anyone explain to me the technical details of how the Labour party website was accessed? Not what enabled it to be accessed, but what the person accessing would have had to have done.

    Explanation suitable for a lay person please.

    • lprent 20.1
      2 December 2014 at 4:12 pm

      Nothing much. I presume it was apache2 web server.

      They would have had to have accessed either by an IP number or the name of a disused website. Probably the latter. The really daft default for apache2 web server was (then) to direct the the query to the root directory of the websites. If there wasn’t a blocking ‘root’ file, the default was for apache2 to give a FTP listing on a web page.

      That would have given them file read access to all of the directories below that. An obvious security hole.

      However the methods to access the data are irrelevant under our legislation. It is what people do with their access to it that is crucial.

      The point Slater and his mates went from just browsers of the web to criminals under our current legislation (the same as rawshark). You can innocently find such a security hole and tell the owner of it, in much the same way you can find a dropped wallet and hand it in. If you take the wallet and attempt to benefit from it you are committing an act of theft.

      Because they then read and copied the files, in some cases decrypted them, and attempted to get political benefit from someone else’s data. This is quite explicit in the rawshark data in which Slater and the others freely admit to doing all of these things.

      Regardless of the source of rawshark’s information, if it is established to be accurate as Slater admits, then that information is enough to charge and convict them then all of data theft from Labour. The Labour party if they have not already should lay or renew a complaint to the police.

      • weka 20.1.1
        2 December 2014 at 4:38 pm

        It’s not the legal aspect, it’s the ‘this is not hacking’ aspect when people say oh anyone could access the site (irrespective of whether that’s legal etc). I’m curious what that means in non-geek terms.

        I just had a conversation with someone on twitter, who says they also accessed the site thus:

        – put healthyhomeshealthykiwis.org.nz/ in address bar

        – once on the front page, the site directory was visible for anyone to go and have a browse

        – this site directory included links to things that were meant to be private

        – there were clickable links in the site map that allowed downloads

        – one of those downloads was a database file that contained the credit card information (twitter person said they didn’t actually download this file themselves though)

        Does that sound right?

        What I’m not clear on is how someone would know to use ‘healthyhomeshealthykiwis.org.nz/’ in the first place. Was it a site that Labour was about to make public, or had it been used in the past and was now meant to be out of use?

        • BM 20.1.1.1
          2 December 2014 at 4:42 pm

          This is a video of Cameron Slater explaining how he did it.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnOAeVaU5xM

          • One Anonymous Bloke 20.1.1.1.1
            2 December 2014 at 4:46 pm

            So what? He’s a self confessed liar: no-one with any credibility trusts a word he says.

            • weka 20.1.1.1.1.1
              2 December 2014 at 4:48 pm

              +1.

            • McFlock 20.1.1.1.1.2
              2 December 2014 at 4:52 pm

              are you talking about bm or slater?

            • chris73 20.1.1.1.1.3
              2 December 2014 at 5:00 pm

              So instead ask others who might know and take what they say as fact

                • chris73 …
                  2 December 2014 at 5:20 pm

                  Don’t bother asking the guy that did it or view his youtube clip instead take the word of someone else who might know how it was done

                  • BM …
                    2 December 2014 at 5:50 pm

                    Yeah, some of the thought processes that go on here are really bizarre.

                    • Paul …
                      2 December 2014 at 5:55 pm

                      You don’t have to stay.

                    • McFlock …
                      2 December 2014 at 5:55 pm

                      Not really. Slater claimed to write all his posts, too.

                      Turns out…. not so much.

                      So we might just be watching an imbecile trying to follow instructions that might or might not have been the method by which someone else actually did it for him.

                  • Paul …
                    2 December 2014 at 5:54 pm

                    Did you look up what sociopath means?

                  • Paul …
                    2 December 2014 at 5:59 pm

                    If you really don’t believe you come to this site to tr***, please explain why you do contribute so much.

                  • Paul …
                    2 December 2014 at 6:20 pm

                    No answer….
                    I’ll assume you’re hear to tr*** then.
                    As everyone thought.

                    • chris73 …
                      2 December 2014 at 7:42 pm

                      Fortunately you’re not a moderator however if you want to know what this site would be like if you were then visit this: http://blog.labour.org.nz/

                      and nobody wants that

                    • greywarshark …
                      2 December 2014 at 8:27 pm

                      @ Paul
                      There is not much intelligent policy that comes from chris if ever, just a trill.
                      I have this idea of giving the regular trolls a month on their own with no others. And then they go off and the next one comes on. One at a time. Less useless tit for tat and footling argument that goes on taking up the whole thread. Tthey provide a lesson in self-discipline here, not everyone can just let them sit. They’re only here to annoy.

                    • Paul …
                      2 December 2014 at 8:34 pm

                      @greywarshark.
                      Fancy just coming on this site simply to annoy people.
                      What does that say about someone’s personality and state of mind?

                  • Blue …
                    2 December 2014 at 8:47 pm

                    According to Dirty Politics, it was Aaron Bhatnagar who discovered the flaw and how to exploit it. He passed that information on to Slater. So any questions are best directed at AB, not Slater, who just took credit for someone else’s work.

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      2 December 2014 at 8:55 pm

                      Who was asked to take the rap for someone else’s cyber-crime. Typical gang fraternity behaviour.

                  • Tracey …
                    3 December 2014 at 1:28 pm

                    The guy who says he did it. In order to take slater at his word you have to accept he is credible. He has posted stories in his name that were copy and pasted from others and paid for… That creates a credibility gap.

          • felix 20.1.1.1.2
            2 December 2014 at 8:33 pm

            I was walking down the street the other day, innocently trying the door handles on parked cars as anyone could do, when something on the back seat of a dark blue Camry glinted in the sunlight and caught my eye.

            I cupped my hands up to the tinted window for a better look, as anyone could have done. I could just make out some sort of silver box.

            I tried the handle – as anyone could do, no theft committed yet – and to my surprise it clicked open.

            “Jesus” I muttered under my mouth-breath. I couldn’t believe some irresponsible bastard had left their car open. And in Hamilton where anyone could be wandering around trying doors.

            I knew right away what I had to do. I looked around to see if I’d been noticed, then I climbed into the back seat and closed the door. The interior was warm from the afternoon sun and smelt faintly of leather.

            The box was a sort of a briefcase, the kind a technician caries tools in. I tried the catch. It opened. I shook my head in disbelief. How could anyone be so careless?

            In the case was a manila folder, no security on it whatsoever. Anyone could have opened it, so I did, and my eyes widened and my mouth hung open even more that usual. On the A4 pages inside were printed photos, mostly middle-aged couples and mostly naked in a variety of poses, along with personal info about tastes and specific interests, and contact details. My lip quivered.

            I knew exactly what I was looking at. For years I had heard whispers about “kinky Melville” – we all had. And now somehow, completely accidentally, I had stumbled across some sort of database for the legendary well-organised South Hamilton swingers network.

            My pants were around my ankles. I hadn’t seen porn in print-form since the late 90s and suddenly, without even deciding to, I was frigging myself like a maniac, like anyone could have done. Pages were flying, my heart was pounding and fluids were coming out of every orifice.

            I’m not sure how, but my dolphin-logo long sleeve t-shirt had ended up tied around my neck, and a hand was pulling it tighter and tighter. As I climaxed with a grunt I realised it was my own hand, but it could’ve been anyone’s.

            When I came to, the sun was setting in the west and the air in the car was cold. My head was aching and I felt a mild twinge of nausea, starting in my toes. I still couldn’t believe that someone would be so cavalier with other people’s private property as to leave it lying around where anyone squinting through the blackened windows could have seen the case it was in.

            Down the street at the end of Garden Place, I could see the boards for posters and flyers. I felt in my pocket for the stapler and I decided to teach them a lesson.

      • Anne 20.1.2
        2 December 2014 at 7:04 pm

        As far as I’m concerned this business of… whether something was hacked or just accessed is pointless semantics. The intention in both cases was to steal information from another party. Ede/Slater stole data from Labour HQ containing membership info. including names, addresses and credit card details. The potential for serious misuse of such information was/is very high. I have no doubt that Slater/Ede and company went through the list with a fine toothcomb. Rawshark stole information from Slater’s computer and he used it to reveal – through another person – a very nasty, political game which we know was conducted out of the PM’s office.

        They both stole data and therefore broke the law. If the police went to the extent of raiding a person’s property and removing all their electronic equipment in one case, then they should do exactly the same in the other incident. They didn’t and it’s obvious they don’t intend to either. It’s too late now. Slater and Ede will have destroyed all the evidence.

        Metiria Turei was interviewed on Checkpoint today and she made the point: the Greens are happy for the police to act on Labour’s complaint, except that apparently they haven’t. They’re just sitting on it and doing nothing!

  21. Ross 21
    2 December 2014 at 5:27 pm

    Interesting that we are talking about the value of union membership lately. So the Dom runs this story. WTF. What is this in relation to? What relevance does it have except to spread fear about unions?

  22. greywarshark 22
    2 December 2014 at 5:57 pm

    @ Ross
    Crafty journalist of Dom Alex Fensome remembered something they taught him at journalism school. Drag out anything that has been controversial in the past whenever you are short of a story. Find a segue and you’ve got a story for today without having to shift your bum off your seat.

    So the goss about the BNZ Wellington building. Probably his father or grandfather was inconvenienced. I thought it was pretty disgraceful and did the union movement no favours, as we see from this regurgitation. Karl du Fresne did a story on it when Con Devitt died, I think that was the point. And got a good pic of the Mum of someone affected giving Con and Tom Skinner I think, a real mouthful. Con’s hair is standing on end!

  23. The Al1en 23
    2 December 2014 at 6:46 pm

    Earlier on I posted this by accident in an open mic a few days old. Too good to get lost in the machine, so here it is again.

    With corruption in Fifa common place according to reports, there’s something rotten indeed going on if this goal by Stephanie Roche doesn’t win Fifa’s goal of the year.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/30284831

    • Te Reo Putake 23.1
      2 December 2014 at 7:07 pm

      Hmmm. It’s good. Better than Rodriguez’s, which is similar in construction (close control, then volley), but van Persie’s is a thing of beauty. There’s a balletic or gymnastic quality to it which lifts it out of the ordinary. And it shows that diving isn’t always cynical.

      Just by way of a benchmark, there’s this:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkKK8H18tCA

      • The Al1en 23.1.1
        2 December 2014 at 7:13 pm

        Both stunning goals to be fair, though I think the skill and vision in the three touches, ending in the unstoppable volley beats the graceful swan dive, but only just.

        • tc 23.1.1.1
          2 December 2014 at 9:54 pm

          Yes agree although there is somewhat tighter marking on James than Roche her goal is superb.

          Great to see MVB again, a man whose early retirement bought about the no tackle from behind rule. If only Milan had a similar quality striker now.

  24. phillip ure 24
    2 December 2014 at 7:34 pm

    there is a very cool music-doco on maori tv @ 8.30..

    ..it’s called ‘one humanity’..

    ..and is about two big concerts (in 1988 and 1990..)..aimed at ending apartheid…

    • phillip ure 24.1
      2 December 2014 at 9:10 pm

      good old nz..eh..?

      ..the only country in the world that ‘free nelson mandela’ went to number one in the charts..

      ..(of course..john key wouldn’t/doesn’t remember any of that..eh..?..

      ..but of course that is just another one of his lies..eh..?

      ..and..how can you tell when john key is lying..?

      ..’his lips are moving’..

      ..and imagine how all those mainstream journalists must feel..those who cluster around him most days..

      ..every time key speaks now..they must be wondering..’is he bullshitting us again?’..

      ..they wouldn’t be human if they didn’t..)

  25. Ergo Robertina 25
    2 December 2014 at 7:43 pm

    Can’t find it online yet, but Anne Tolley’s comment was aired prominently on 3 news tonight regarding the new poverty report, in which she says such cases are highly complex blah blah with much going on in their ”small lives”. Reveals the miserable world view in which the weak and powerless have lives and concerns that can be diminished as unimportant.

    • Ergo Robertina 25.1
      2 December 2014 at 7:55 pm

      Have now heard the clarification on 3 news ~(the delayed channel) which said Tolley meant children by ”small lives”.

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