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Open mike 03/05/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, May 3rd, 2021 - 86 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

86 comments on “Open mike 03/05/2021 ”

  1. Morrissey 1

    The substandard Grauniad opinionist James Ball had a go at Glenn Greenwald

    Bad mistake. Very, very bad mistake….

    • millsy 1.1

      Greenwald has swung to the right in recent years mind you. The guy thinks Tucker Carlson is a 'socialist'.

      • McFlock 1.1.1

        And defended Matt Gaetz with the angle that no charges have been made so folks are jumping the gun, and some pretty shonkey interpretation of the term "age of consent"..

        I found the original article on his substack, but screw him, here's a response to the tweet teasers he sent of it.

        • francesca

          Oh goodness

          I began a 17 year span relationship with the father of my four children at the age of 16, first child at 18 , and he was some years older than me

          Crikey , the Florida law would have me as a tragic victim of rape, a characterisation I don't share. It was a good relationship and I have no regrets.

          Believe me , if that was rape, I far prefer it to the violent kind, which is absolutely devastating

          But carry on , with your mansplaining of rape semantics

          • McFlock

            Yes, my comment was totes all about you (and had nothing to do with Greenwald claiming an age of consent of 17 when in fact the law in several of the relevant states was that the sexual partners of a man in his thirties need to be aged at least 18). /sarc

            • francesca

              And my comment referred largely to the Florida law

              But I also remember well your Assange rape comments

              • McFlock

                See, here's the thing: we can get into a debate about the ethics of a 31 year old having sex with a 17 year old, we can debate the semantics of whether that, in many instances, would involve a de facto power imbalance to the point of negating informed consent for someone of the younger age and thereby possibly constituting sexual assault or rape in a specific case, or even whether the Floridian legislation is appropriate (often a doubtful issue).

                But my comment had nothing to do with any of that.

                Greenwald's efforts to defend a 31yo representative who allegedly had sex with a person under the age of consent include a basic misunderstanding of age of consent legislation in the relevant jurisdictions. Feel free to address that point at any time.

                • francesca

                  "or even whether the Floridian legislation is appropriate (often a doubtful issue)."

                  in my case an injustice would have been done

                  Can't remember responding to your Greenwald statements..in fact didn't , rather addressed the Florida law as it applied to my personal circumstances

                  Feel free McFlock

                  • McFlock

                    Interesting use of the reply button, then.

                    But whatevs. Your relationship as a 16yo with a 26yo was fine. Fair enough.

                    Were you in Florida at the time? I suspect not. So the Florida law is still irrelevant. Just as Gaetz apparently using venmo to pay a 17yo for sex has nothing to do with NZ prostitution law.Heck, in Russia or Alabama you could have started procreating at something like 14. That is equally irrelevant to Greenwald's apparent commitment to reality.

                    But in a thread about Greenwald, again, whatever Gaetz did or didn't do and the legality about those alleged actions is irrelevant. The fact is Greenwald, a former reporter still much respected as a blogger ( 👿 ) by some commenters here, is using a fundamentally incorrect understanding of applicable law to defend Matt Gaetz.

          • millsy

            How old was he, if you don't mind me asking?

            • Brigid

              As Francesca said:


            • francesca

              10 years older

              • millsy

                Not as big an age gap as the Florida senator, who is pushing 20 years older than the girls he was "with".

                Also age of consent laws are generally older than 16 in the USA.

              • greywarshark

                Sex we can' live with it and can't do without it. All these thousands of years and we still are arguing about every aspect of it and building higher soapboxes to declaim about it.

            • Sabine

              she was seventeen, he was over thirty.

              mind its not only the sex with a minor (statuatory rape) that is at Gaetzes problem it is the trafficking a minor across statelines for the prupose of sex (Man Act) , and paying her for the services.

              so there is the issue with what would be considered statuatory rape

              What is Statutory Rape? Florida's statutory rape law is codified in F.S. 794.05. Generally, the age of consent in Florida is 18. … The law says that if a person who is 24 or older engages in sexual activity with a person who is 16 or 17, he or she commits a second-degree felony, punishable by up to 15 years in prison.

              then there is the issue of moving a underage person across statelines is of a different nature altogether.


              and paying for sex and receiving making money of sex by pimping a girl ( in this case) out.

              In Florida, it is a crime for people who are not married to each other to buy, sell, offer, solicit, or agree to engage in sexual favors in exchange for money. Florida's law against prostitution applies to both prostitutes and “johns.” (Fla. … For more information on prostitution laws generally, see Prostitution.

              So even if the statuatory rape charges could be thrown out – and chances are if they stood alone know one would care tbh, it would still leave sex trafficking and pimping. Not sure what Glenn has to say about that.


        • Morrissey

          but screw him…

          He's the world's most renowned journalist, and that's your considered response. no

          The fact that he stands for the principle of free speech (which leads him to support people you have scoffed at and/or vilified, such as Edward Snowden and Julian Assange) and the principle that one is presumed innocent until proven guilty, is no doubt the key driver of your animus towards him.

          • Adrian Thornton

            Morrissey it says volumes about McFlock and Co that they side with the Authoritarian Right in attacking the journalist whose work actually freed from wrongful imprisonment one of the most important Left wing politicians in the world today…like I said before, these people are just Liberal Imperialists who haven't seen a western led sanction, foreign intervention or war that they didn't like in a long long time.

            Glenn Greenwald Took on the Authoritarian Right in Brazil — and Won


          • Nic the NZer

            On the contrary, McFlock is not necessarily against the presumption of innocence. Just that in this situation its a bit of a hinderance to 'throw everything at the courts and let them sort it out', which is after all just good politics is it not.


            [link fixed]

            • McFlock

              Nah dude.

              All I'm saying about Gaetz is that if "the world's most renowned journalist" comes to your defence and he finds it necessary to mislead people about the age of consent, you might want to top up your budget for an actual legal defense.

              Although a line I used about poverty a few years back also seems to bode poorly for Gaetz' future before I even recall hearing about the individual:

              To roughly quote john Oliver, the poverty line is like the age of consent: if you feel the need to parse exactly where it is, then you’ve probably already done something very, very wrong.

              • Nic the NZer

                See, the thing about that is the only source I saw was where Greenwald both describes the age of consent as being 18 in Virginia and that there really need to be charges before considering Gaetz guilt. So if Greenwald is missleading people I need to see where he is doing that (and this point was elided from your prior link).

                • McFlock

                  “If you don’t think it should be legal for 17 year-olds to have sex with anyone they want, go write to the governors and legislatures in 37 states & the District of Columbia which made it legal,” Greenwald recently tweeted while defending Gaetz.

                  That quoted quote is from my link. Is the quote incorrect? Because it seems to suggest that the age of consent in states relevant to the Gaetz story is not 18.

                  As for considering legal guilt, I'm not. Sure, it looks damned suss on the face of it. And yeah, I tend to be of the opinion that the further the age gap gets from the old "half your age plus seven" guide, the odds of a relationship between equals gets lower and the odds of exploitation seem to get higher. And Gaetz looks like a sleazebag in the style of Roy Moore or Berlusconi, and Greenwald is well past his days of being "world renowned".

                  But hey, if it gets to court and turns out to be all a fit-up, it doesn't make Greenwald's comments about the age of consent any less misleading.

                  • Nic the NZer

                    So you didn't see the start of that thread either?

                    • McFlock

                      If you have a point, feel free to elaborate.

                    • Nic the NZer []

                      The point is Greenwalds quote is factually accurate for the US and yet you are repeatedly claiming its missleading. So we need to see the part of the conversation where Gaetz exoneration is supposedly implied by Greenwald. Unfortunately for some reason the author left it out though.

                    • McFlock

                      Daamit. If only there were some sort of computer algorithm or website that let us search for a direct quote across all the www in the hope of finding an original source. I guess we can never truly know the tru- oh wait here's the exact thread.

                      Wow, context really does help. Greenwald seems to be arguing that if a person is above the age of consent in some of the US states (in some circumstances), "woman" is always a more applicable term than "minor".

                    • Nic the NZer []

                      Thats just the same tweet again, doesn' t show me any earlier tweets. It also seems more clear that Greenwald intended that tweet in the general US context than before.

                    • McFlock

                      It shows me the thread when I scroll up or down. Even when I logged out.

                      Not sure if I can help you use twitter.

              • mauī

                Then again he might not be trying to mislead anyone, but instead shock horror – use twitter to express his liberal personal views.

          • Sacha

            He's the world's most renowned journalist

            citation required

      • Professor Longhair 1.1.2

        In his zeal to disparage one of the few decent American intellectuals, one "millsy" writes, sans evidence, that "Greenwald has swung to the right in recent years", and then compounds that outlandish, unsupported statement with something that is plain false, viz., "The guy thinks Tucker Carlson is a 'socialist'." There is no evidence, anywhere, that Glenn Greenwald has ever said anything that even implies that.

        • arkie

          “I would describe a lot of people on the right as being socialist. I would consider Steve Bannon to be socialist. I would consider the 2016 iteration of Donald Trump the candidate to be a socialist, based on what he was saying. I would consider Tucker Carlson to be a socialist.”

          – Glenn Greenwald, on the Daily Caller, 3 March 2021



          • Incognito

            I looked out of the window and saw three monkeys running for the hills.

          • The Al1en

            Shot! Right between the sock puppet's eyes lol

            • Adrian Thornton

              Al1en, As usual you are shooting blanks….maybe try reading a bit further down next time.

              • The Al1en

                I don't normally engage with you anymore, you being a lost cause and hopeless case, especially considering the amount you're moderated and me not wanting to get caught up in your maladies, but on this occasion, tell me where "a bit further down" I should have been reading?


          • Adrian Thornton

            @arkie, You left out this bit of important context, not on purpose I am sure."“I think the vision is, you know, you have this kind of right wing populism, which really is socialism, that says we should close our borders, not allow unconstrained immigration, and then take better care of our own working class people, and not allow this kind of transnational, global, corporatist elite to take everything for themselves under the guise of neoliberalism,”

            • arkie

              I used the pull quote used in the article in the second link, the context is present in the video straight from the Daily Caller site in the first.

              You take my desire for an accurate discussion on this forum as malicious or a defense of the status quo, not on purpose I am sure, but as a leftist, I think Greenwald is just wrong in his understanding of socialism, and it does it no favour to be associated or equated to right wing populism, they are fundamentally at odds and it needs to be constantly repeated.

              • Adrian Thornton

                You may be are right in that Greenwalds understanding of Socialism leaves a bit to be desired, but I think that his point of there being some crossover with traditional conservatives and Socialists (in the US) in their views on the working classes/unions, end to US foreign interventions/wars and of course their mutual hatred of freemarket neoliberalism is a good point.

                In fact I would say that anyone with real progressive Socialist political plans have more to fear from the Freemarket Liberal Centrists in the short term than they do from the Right or Conservatives, as was proven out in the open for us all to see vis a vis Corbyn and Sanders.

                • arkie

                  The enemy of my enemy is not always my friend.

                  Where are these traditional conservatives that are similar to socialists in their views on the working classes/unions? Certainly not any of those above that Greenwald listed so there is no ‘point’ there.

                  If you think the answers to the pressing issues of our time will come solely through electoral politics then I think you are entitled to your fear but I do not proscribe to such a worldview.

  2. Foreign Waka 3

    Interesting times, where in the end the general public will have to pay:

    Political Correctness, payable by the taxpayer and certainly the elderly:


    Neglect without consequence for those highly paid. Representing the community and yes, you guessed it, the community will pay:


    Banks give money away, inflation is higher than interest rates. Affected: Those who save or have savings (pensioners, first home buyers etc..). Hahahahahaha… yeah lets just spend spend spend and print money… what a sound concept that is.


    Meanwhile… we are certainly not raising a generation that will participate being part of the community and has to be supported by the taxpayers. Years 1-11 attending less than 70 per cent (of learning days).


    The week started well. Perhaps someone can provide highlights that mitigate the above and make things look a bit better.

  3. Sacha 4

    Record advance welfare payouts (=debt) as housing swallows income in last quarter. (2m clip in story). https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/over-200-000-early-welfare-benefit-payments-have-been-paid-in-last-three-months-figures-show

    Individuals who need immediate essential help can get up to six weeks of benefit payments which is then repaid back. Since 2016, the number of beneficiaries asking to be paid early has been steadily rising – almost 230,000 in this year's March quarter, at a cost of $87 million.

    “What we're seeing is the need being met in a way that’s not sustainable,” advocate Kay Bereton said. She was on the Government's Welfare Expert Advisory Group three years ago and says beneficiaries need to earn more and private landlords incentivised to take them in.

    “People are paying 80, 90, 110 per cent of their benefit income on their rent and there’s just not enough left,” Bereton said.

    • Sabine 4.1

      You need to read the post by Mickey, Labour is raining down money on our poor unfortunate unemployed. Its gonna come gushing down the drains that windfall of $ 57 (before tax lol) over the next 2.5 years.

      They just simply care no more then National does. I think that myth should finally be put to rest.

      • Sacha 4.1.1

        Ta. Had not seen that post. Guess we have only a few more weeks to see how much they are prepared to put their money where their mouths have been.

        • Sabine

          I have seen enough in my community over the last year to not expect anything else but hardship. Couched in some cynical sugar coated baby babbling about kindness and niceness and gentleness. Not for the poor, now they need the hard treatment. Lest they get comfortable in their poorness.

    • Sabine 4.2

      And here we see how Tory all our parties are in regards to the unemployed and other unfortunate poor and those that actually can't be shoved back into work due to physical and other issues.

      But Sepuloni says the Government has created change.

      “On top of the income support that we've increased and provided better access to through the welfare system, we've been working really hard to provide access to employment and the upskilling,” she said.

      But the National Party doesn’t buy it.

      “With an increase in the number of people on Job-Seeker Benefit over 80,000 since Labour came into office, more people are doing it tough and we don’t think the Government is doing enough to support them into employment,” National’s Louise Upston said.

      In the last quarter we've seen the largest exits off benefits into work than what we've seen since 1996 when electronic records started to be kept,” Sepuloni maintained.

      Yeah, shove them into what ever jobs never mind they are still on a benefit, cause they still can't pay a rent, food and shoes at the same time.

      Carmel Sepuloni can't soon enough join her predecessor in selling property, as is befitting such callous people.

      And Carmel Honey, providing access is as good as handing out a phone number. There you have provided access, now hire some people to actually answer the goddamn phone.
      Also Carmel Ghoul, so the fact that people gone back to some jobs re Covid, is now something you celebrate? Maybe we need more pandemic so you can massage your stats a bit more?
      from Sachas link https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/over-200-000-early-welfare-benefit-payments-have-been-paid-in-last-three-months-figures-show

  4. Sabine 5


    On top of the article is a little clip about a guy who just received a rent increase of over 100 NZD, cause why not. Obviously someone will pay it, if not him who cares…

    Watch it without noise, just the writing over the images.

    • Jimmy 5.1

      From the article seems to me like the tenant had a very generous landlord only charging $370 for over 2 years! (Think of all the money the tenant has saved over those two years by being lucky enough to have such cheap rent). Now the tenant complains when the rent finally increases to $525 (which is still cheap as the average is $560).

      I guess as Grant Robertson says, if he considers the increase unfair, he simply moves out to another place.

      • Muttonbird 5.1.1

        Rent controls would ensure this didn't happen.

      • cricklewood 5.1.2

        'I guess as Grant Robertson says, if he considers the increase unfair, he simply moves out to another place.'

        Yes straight to emergency housing in a swamped market…

      • Foreign Waka 5.1.3

        ???? the real world is charging rent way beyond what can be afforded. This is why the taxpayer forks out 1 Million a day (let this melt on your tongue) to support the landlords collecting these extraordinary amounts.

        • Treetop

          Convert that money into houses. Short term government needs to ensure people can pay the shortfall in rent until homes are built..

  5. weka 6

    Solid in depth interview with David Bell, the whistleblower at the Tavistock in the UK which treats children with gender dysphoria. He’s just retired so is now able to speak freely.

    Lots of important issues in this case: the over medicalisation of children, the ideological influence of lobby groups, the fact that when the GIDS clinic was finally taken to court it was unable to present evidence for efficacy or not of treatment or even data on number and ages of children treated, that so many people are afraid to speak out.

    Two things that stand out particularly, which are related to that last one. The number of girls being referred for treatment of gender dysphoria has exploded exponentially. Could be an increase in awareness of need for treatment or it could be a developing social dynamic where girls now experience bring female as so difficult they’d rather transition. But we don’t know because GIDS failed in its basic requirement for record keeping, because public discussion and academic inquiry has been so suppressed.

    Hence we have the situation of teen girls and young women eventually having non reversible medical and surgical treatments like double mastectomies and hormone treatments that leave them sterile, and finding their gender dysphoria remains unresolved and later they detransition. Many are lesbian and end up resuming life as lesbian women but with permanently altered bodies. Think about that in the current debate about conversion therapy.

    Which leads us to the second point. The left is actively complicit in this by its refusal to allow debate of women’s rights in relation to trans rights and discussion of the issues by the public and academia. Bell notes the chilling effect generally from the left, and gender critical feminists have been writing about this for years now and are still being written off as transphobes. This article is a good exploration of the issues because it’s outside that political arena but still clinical people were afraid to speak and those that did faced sanctions.

    The left needs to take a long hard look at itself and what it’s freeze peach, no debate rhetoric is doing.


      • Anker 6.1.1
        • Didn’t get back to this, but thanks so much for posting. Yes some on the left are complicit with this and have swallowed uncritically the gender identity narrative, which is pushed as the only way to think.
        • there is an annual fair held in Masterton (book fair I think) and every year they have a Harry Potter quiz for kids. This year it has been canceled because of JK Rowling’s so called trans phobic comments
    • Rosemary McDonald 6.2

      But we don’t know because GIDS failed in its basic requirement for record keeping, because public discussion and academic inquiry has been so suppressed.

      Two thoughts. You'd think that GIDS' record keeping would be absolutely first class… bearing in mind that for many of their patients' treatment would involve chemical and surgical interventions (to mostly healthy bodies) with irreversible effects. It's almost as if GIDS never expected to ever have to be held accountable or face close public/judicial scrutiny.

      The suppression and de- platforming of anyone with an opinion that is counter to the 'accepted narrative' has gone beyond concerning. It is Orwellian, and truly frightening.

      Between this issue and Te Virus (origin, symptoms, treatments, supportive therapies and vaccines etc) I have read many, many articles and research papers that are automatically dismissed because they run (even slightly) counter to what fuck knows who decided is The Truth.

      Respect, weka, for continuing to bring this issue to the fore.

    • Sabine 6.3

      The left needs to take a long hard look at itself and what it’s freeze peach, no debate rhetoric is doing.


    • Anker 6.4

      Hear hear Weka. Will respond more in full later. Busy day

  6. Sabine 7

    Where do our tax dollars go? A wee it of a run down of motels in Rotorua that house 'district clients' aka homeless New Zealand families, kids, and anyone in between with no fixed abode.

    District Clients, i wonder how much time was spend to come up with that euphemism and if it involved any sense of shame even just typing them. They are not clients, they are homeless. And thus as Stephanie Rodgers said a few years ago, the state gave up. Charity even government Charity is now business and homeless kiwis become 'district clients'


    • Jimmy 7.1

      How do you get the time to spend so much time on TS Sabine? I haven't counted but almost half the comments on here seem to be from yourself today.

      • Westykev 7.1.1

        Jimmy, when you are passionate about an issue/s then you make time.

        I maybe from the centre-right side of the divide but I don’t generally visit political blogs that align with my views as they tend to be echo chambers, only reinforcing my views.

        I like coming here and hearing from commentators such as Sabine because it challenges my view point. On housing and alleviation of poverty Sabine makes some very salient points.

        • Jimmy

          I agree Sabine does make some interesting comments but genuinely wondered how They find the time as some of the comments are quite long and detailed and obviously a lot of thought has gone in to them.

          • Sabine

            She finds the time as much as you do. But she has lived poverty, homelessness, sexual abuse, and such, so she knows it. She remembers being poor, hungry, cold, and being fucked around by some very comfortable people in very comfortable offices with very comfortable salaries that could not care one bit about hte damage they heep onto already damaged people.

            This one to me is close. Also i am She / her.

            • Stuart Munro

              I find that I can only fight so many battles at once without losing quality – but I appreciate most of your comments – so, as the Koreans say, 화이팅!

              • Sabine

                Poverty and homelessness are my fights. I understand them. There are many things that are being discussed here on the Standard or elsewhere were i contribute by not saying a thing. But poverty, homelessness that is something that i understand in detail. Hunger i understand. What i still grapple with today is being so comfortable all your life that one takes wellbeing and riches for granted, while i can't enjoy mine of the moment because i don't want to get used to it. 🙂 Poverty does fuck one up for a long time.

  7. Anne 8

    An inquiry into a police spy scandal (which had its origins decades ago) is currently in progress in Britain. For those who might be interested, I leave here two podcasts which give some idea of the pernicious activity of the under-cover police officers involved, and how it affected the lives of many decent, law abiding British folk – women in particular.



    Each podcast is 30 minutes in actual length and well worth the listen. The amount of wasted police hours and the over-all astronomical cost is in itself a scandal.

    The time is overdue for a similar inquiry in NZ because the NZ Police ran a similar campaign here for years. It began in the 1970s around the time Muldoon became PM – no surprises there.

    They infiltrated organisations which they perceived to be left-wing and therefore posed a threat to society. The NZ Labour Party was one of them. Incredibly hard to believe but it is true.

    I know the identity of two people who acted in an undercover capacity (there would have been others) and who spied on me for years. I was also used by one of them to elicit information which I happily supplied… thinking the friendship was genuine. The fallout proved to be extremely harrowing for me.

    The damage that was done to many innocent individuals was huge and is, in itself, worthy of a government initiated investigation into past police practices.

    • Treetop 8.1

      An inquiry is required or access to a highly qualified QC at no cost.

      I do think those who have been mistreated (understated) and then have confronted the police and not had the issue resolved when superiors have sanctioned what was done, there needs to be consequences for the police.

      Muldoon either told the office of the commissioner of police to use police resources to harm innocent people or the office of the Commissioner of Police acted unlawfully.

      I will listen to the links you provided and I was aware of women being exploited by the police covertly. Years have not faded the injustice. Finding ways to live with the harm done is how I deal with it.

      • Anne 8.1.1

        Muldoon was responsible for politicising the NZ police in the first place and it continued long after he was gone. Some of the behaviour was scurrilous and imo unlawful, and those of us on the receiving end were left high and dry without a shred of support from anyone.

        It was a truly disgraceful period in the history of the NZ police and will remain so until they or the government front up and conduct a full inquiry.

        • Treetop

          I tried to edit but ran out of time.

          The government cannot ignore those who are brave enough to speak out against a serious historical situation even though 40 – 45 years have gone by. When it comes to an operational police matter the office of the commissioner needs to have a process in place where a person can get the answers to why it was done to them. The person who it was done to needs to be able to say how it impacted.

          For sure there would have been files and establishing who controlled the files is where I would start.

          • Anne

            I managed to establish long since why they targeted me. It related to my father and a situation in the early 1970s they had misinterpreted. The police special branch in those days were a brash and ignorant lot. When I later joined the Labour Party they started on me.

            • Treetop

              You deserve an explanation as to what was misinterpreted and by whom, I hope you get one.

              I was summoned to CIB in 1979 when 19 because I told a cop I was going to go to the newspaper in 2 weeks time. For 2 years I had to listen through the media about what was done to Moyle by the police and Muldoon knowing the cop had told me in March 1976. In late 2003 he said to me, "If you did it and I didn't report it."

              Dealing with a cop perjuring himself at an inquiry (December 1976 and cops name was released mid April 1978) all on my own caused a huge impact. I worked at a police barracks in early 1976 and no one from there ever gave me a thought as to what I knew or how I was. I dated the cop for 6 months and he was involved in the Moyle incident in 17 June 1975. Every approach made toward the police had an impact. I am thinking about giving it one last go with Coster as it was a police commissioner's file. The cop was a fool as he probably has a case against the way his employer used him.

              I am aware of you previously raising your interminable situation due to there being an impasse with the police.

              • Anne

                I was not a party to anything, but a jealous and vindictive 'friend' made false claims in high places and together with the background I alluded to earlier… it resulted in me becoming "a person of interest".

                While Muldoon was in office under-cover persons linked to the police committed practices that at the very least were corrupt, and at worst were possibly criminal in their execution. When I started investigating I never imagined for a moment there was a police element to my case. The relatively recent discovery shocked me to the core. But it has made me even more resolute that justice is going to prevail one day.

  8. Sacha 10

    Thought some would appreciate this..

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