Open mike 03/07/2011

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, July 3rd, 2011 - 76 comments
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Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

76 comments on “Open mike 03/07/2011 ”

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  1. PeteG 1
    3 July 2011 at 8:50 am

    Macsyna King and Ian Wishart have been the target of a lot of protest and anger over the past week. Is this the best way we can can expend the energy of our anger about child abuse and the deaths of babies? How much lower can we take Macsyna King?

    What to do Macsyna King?

    • Pete George 1.1
      3 July 2011 at 10:42 am

      I think it’s time to: Back the new Children’s Commissioner.

      Dr Will has a record of working successfully on one of our society’s biggest problem – early childhood abuse. He deserves all the support we can give him.

      • Treetop 1.1.1
        3 July 2011 at 2:02 pm

        I am heartened by what I hear from the new Children’s Commissioner on his proposals to ensure the safety and improved out comes for children.

      • dad4justice 1.1.2
        3 July 2011 at 5:01 pm

        Pete Georgie – Does the Children’s Comissioner Department of Fools actually help abused children? The fact is mate, it’s just another useless government let down for kiwi kids.Dysfunctional and expensive white elephants like this deserve to be eradicated, as that would be in the child’s best interests.Not to mention struggling kiwi taxpayers.

        • Pete George 1.1.2.1
          3 July 2011 at 5:15 pm

          d4jie, have you watched the interview with Dr Wills on Marae Investigates? If not I suggest you do before jumping to conclusions. If he can carry through some of his methods and aims he has already been doing over the past five years in Hawkes Bay then I he can initiate more real progress.

          • dad4justice 1.1.2.1.1
            3 July 2011 at 5:22 pm

            Pete Geo; I am just saying the Children’s Commisioner Office has a method of leaving a dismal track record. I will wait and see whether this blowhard department is worth anything? So far it’s been a total let down for kiwi kids! Just another pathetic department of over paid worthless nitwits. Poor kiwi children can’t afford to eat lamb anymore Mr Gummint scum.

            What’s will the moderation girls? FFS why do I bother with this joke blog.

          • Jum 1.1.2.1.2
            3 July 2011 at 5:44 pm

            Pete George,

            The NActMUs and you will just love the wee sentence he popped in about New Zealanders paying for their own health treatment so that the children can be looked after. What happened to the much better idea of removing the 14billion dollars of tax cuts which Key awarded to himself and backers and using that to help the health of the poor children? Otherwise, we know the outcome; the poor will then pay or not be able to afford to for their own health AND the health care or not be able to afford to of their poor children. The rich will continue corruptly writing off their wealth, hiding it away, using it to buy knighthoods and p.m.’ships. And New Zealand will then become America. How convenient for everyone but New Zealanders.

            • Pete George 1.1.2.1.2.1
              3 July 2011 at 6:00 pm

              Why shouldn’t we pay for our own health care, especially routine care?

              Labour tries too much blanket assistance (blanket vote attracting?) rather than targeting those who cause most of the problems. Sure, it would be great if everyone had a decent wage, decent housing and decent standard of living, and everyone paid their fair share of tax, and incomes weren’t so disparate.

              But with limited resources it’ best to target the biggest problem areas more, the ongoing benefits will be to everyone’s advantage in the long run.

              • Ianupnorth …
                3 July 2011 at 6:23 pm

                Pete, you need to look up the stats  regarding the availability of services and affordability and also the relationship between poverty and achievement. Unless you actually narrow the gap no matter what you do it will fail. There are too many do-gooder programmes – they don’t work. You need to refocus service delivery, build robust public policy (even though having that will upset a lot of people) and build peoples abilities to be self sufficient.
                 

                • Pete George …
                  3 July 2011 at 6:29 pm

                  I generally agree Ian. People aren’t encouraged to become self sufficient if the government promise to give them everything they need.

                  • Colonial Viper …
                    3 July 2011 at 7:31 pm

                    People aren’t self sufficient.

                    It takes a human being at least a year to be able to walk properly, and without help from other humans, we never ever learn to talk or even understand language.

                    People are interdependent, not self sufficient.

                    I suspect that the average Tory farmer understands this more than you do.

                    • Ianupnorth …
                      3 July 2011 at 7:42 pm

                      Hence my line
                       

                      build peoples abilities to be self sufficient
                       

                      Whilst we allow people to live in KFC, McD’s, BK or Pizza Hut, whilst the educational system fails to produce what we need and whilst we have a society that determines a persons worth by the model of car they drive or the cellphone they own we will continue to go backwards. We are just lemmings to commercialism.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      3 July 2011 at 7:47 pm

                      determines a persons worth by the model of car they drive or the cellphone they own we will continue to go backwards. We are just lemmings to commercialism.

                      I reckon give it a few more years Ian, the Hubbert Curve is going to sort all that out.

              • Jum …
                3 July 2011 at 6:33 pm

                Pete George

                The biggest problem areas are the write-offs of tax by people best able to afford to pay it fairly.

                Take a quick look at the future of New Zealand and its egalitarian society and weep. This outcome is for skids countries like America where people are expected to be very rich or dirt poor. New Zealand once thought better of itself. Shame on New Zealanders who think that selling off all New Zealanders’ assets for the benefit of the rich beneficiaries is a good result when we end up with pondscum at the top of the food chain and the helpless at the bottom.

                http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/AK1107/S00032/hungry-and-homeless-families-set-to-benefit.htm

                Next we’ll be expecting the poor who are poor because of NActMU’s DELIBERATELY bad economic management to be tugging their forelocks when they are given their depleted wage packet, depleted because of the taxes used to prop up the rich who don’t pay them.

                As for limited resources; crap, Pete George.

                The only reason resources are limited in New Zealand and in so many other countries is that the rich and powerful have closed them off.

                Remember the food mountains – disgraceful when millions were starving and nothing would have been lost by just giving the food to the poor.

                • joe90 …
                  3 July 2011 at 7:29 pm

                  Why shouldn’t we pay for our own health care, especially routine care?

                  Because a quick google shows that in the US the for profit health system costs an average family $13,375 (2009) p/a in insurance premiums.

                  • Colonial Viper …
                    3 July 2011 at 8:12 pm

                    Yep, some things are much better done as a large community, not as individuals. Funding health services is one of them.

                    • Treetop …
                      4 July 2011 at 3:16 pm

                      What I want from Wills is for him to be contacted and brought down to earth about where to draw the line. When I email his office I will make a few proposals, I will only mention one here: that the accommodation supplement is increased to not having to pay no more that 25 % of your income in rent.

  2. travellerev 2
    3 July 2011 at 9:03 am

    While most Kiwi’s think that Gadaffi is an audacious terrorist for defending his country perhaps it would be prudent to hear the other side. Here is a one, two part telephone conversation between Webster Tarpley and Alex Jones.

    Webster Tarpley was on the Green square in the centre of Tripoli. (Life view provided)

    It seems that at least half a million Libyans wanted to tell NATO, Sarkozy, and president Obama who wants to invade Libya with ground troops sometime October this year something: WE WILL DEFEND OUR COUNTRY!!! (Sorry for the screaming Iprent but it makes me so angry how this does not come through in the MSM)

    In the second half something remarkable happens. Tarpley gives his phone to a Libyan fan of Alex Jones who invites him to come to Libya so they can share his Kalasnikov to fight together in their struggle against the Fascist/Corporate criminals trying to steal Libyan oil and resources. 

    Do you get what this means? Libyans listening to Alex Jones by many here considered a conspiracy nutter, right wing red neck and consider him an ally and want him to be their guest to report on what is really going on in Libya.

    Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

    • Zorr 2.1
      3 July 2011 at 12:03 pm

      ummm… I don’t think Gadaffi is a terrorist. I think he is a brutal dictator who is willing to order the murder and rape of his fellow country men and women in order to maintain power. Feel free to explain how this is incorrect?

      On the other hand though I fully appreciate the side of the argument that is presented that the Libyan revolutionaries don’t wish to swap the brutality of Gadaffi for the ideological invasion of the West through NATO.

      There really needs to be a term developed to specifically describe the strategy of “Western nations assist/instill revolution in unstable resource rich nations in order to install a powerless benevolent democracy that allows pillage by proxy”. ^_^

      • travellerev 2.1.1
        3 July 2011 at 12:40 pm

        It seems we are at least partly in agreement. Here are a few links that might change you view (coloured by incomplete information due to the MSM propaganda) of Gaddafi a bit.

        Here is what Amnesty International has to say about the rape allegations.

        This is what Libyan women have to say about the rape allegations.

        Gaddafi shared out hundreds of thousands of guns and other assorted arms out to the population so they can help defend the country and it seems according to Webster Tarpley in the above video links that an inordinate amount of women have weapons and are prepared to use them.

        Here is an video which might explain why Libyans stand behind Gadaffi on the whole.

        It seems that a few of John Key’s bankster mates got their hands dirty while defrauding the Sovereign wealth fund of Libya for oh, a billion or so and funny enough just before the Libyans could take the scamsters who collaborated with the international banking scum the war started and those who were on the verge of being taken to court became “rebel leaders”.

        And last but not least this is what those wonderful freedom fighters seem to have thought was the right course of action with all those nice new weapons from NATO.

        Remember; The first casualty of war/kinetic action/humanitarian intervention is the truth!!!

        • Zorr 2.1.1.1
          3 July 2011 at 1:03 pm

          And you are the source of the truth? Sounds like the job to have…

          • travellerev 2.1.1.1.1
            3 July 2011 at 1:39 pm

            No, I’m not smarty pants but do yourself a favour and ask yourself why it is so easy for you to believe the things said in the MSM about Gaddafi.

            Is it because he is a funny man with clowns costumes and a few well chosen smears easy to believe because he is just some one far away believing in different things to you or would you believe the same things if they said them about someone dressed as Goff or Key and a leader of a Western country?

            Blair- Bush started two wars against countries which had nothing to do with 9/11. killing more tan a million Iraqis and God knows how many Afghanis and Pakistanis. Polluting all those countries for the next 4.5 billion years with depleted uranium.

            Iran hasn’t started a single war in the last 500 years. Neither has Libya.

            Obama has perpetuated these wars and started and additional three wars while preparing for at least two more.

            Libya’s students get a living wage while studying for free and medical treatment is also free. Which it was in Iraq by the way too. Here students have to go into debt and our hard earned rights and social care are being taken away by the same rich pricks ruling the rest of this planet and you think that the Libyans are the suppressed here.

            Here’s another homily for ya: There are none so enslaved as those who think they are free. 

            Now grow up and do your own research.

            • Zorr 2.1.1.1.1.1
              3 July 2011 at 2:18 pm

              urg… just, for the moment, ignoring the specific issue of Gadaffi and Libya that are the basis of this discussion and focusing on the ideological arguments you are fronting. To my perception, your statements represent a form of hypocrisy and that is something I find detestable. I don’t feel the need to trust the MSM or ANY particular outlet of information – hell, there are a lot of Tom MacMasters out there either purporting to be a primary source of information or, like you, a biased secondary or tertiary source filter for the excessive amounts of information available on the internets. The advantage to you being the second type though is that I can read through your comments and links, keeping in mind your bias, and then come to an appropriately weighted conclusion on the issue at hand.

              “Now grow up and do your own research” <– if I did this and came back and disagreed with you, what would it take to change your mind? If you were able to answer this question it might be worthwhile engaging in an issue with you.

              EDIT: Also, since when was blaming the MSM portrayal of a person an excuse for their war crimes?

              • travellerev …
                3 July 2011 at 5:02 pm

                Good, read my links and make up your own mind.
                You come back with well documented clear arguments of that which you want to convince me and be surprised.

                I agree, let’s take Blair, Obama, Sarkozy, and the rest of the warmongering mass murderers together with Bibi Netanyahu, Mubarak and the other dictators in the service of these criminals to the international court in the Hague for long overdue judgement.

  3. tsmithfield 3
    3 July 2011 at 9:27 am

    Somewhat surprisingly, geonet isn’t showing any aftershocks in Auckland last night. You need to be on guard for the aftershock that is one magnitude less than the main shock. So, watch out for the 1.9.

    • Lanthanide 3.1
      3 July 2011 at 11:05 am

      Geonet generally doesn’t show quakes of 2.5 or lower, and often doesn’t show anything under 3.0.

    • Vicky32 3.2
      3 July 2011 at 5:52 pm

      You need to be on guard for the aftershock that is one magnitude less than the main shock. So, watch out for the 1.9.

      It wouldn’t even be noticeable! 😀

  4. joe90 4
    3 July 2011 at 11:29 am

    The European summer of discontent continues with protests in Belarus against an authoritarian regime with a poor human rights record .

    #Belarus Protest and images.

    • ZeeBop 4.1
      3 July 2011 at 3:30 pm

      Its a distraction when our human rights record in NZ is so wanting given the massive bounty this country provides the world. When we get our social justice agenda centre stage only then should we start worrying about human rights cesspools like Belarus. i.e. show the citizens on the streets in Belarus what to do when they do win, don’t let the ‘any profit at any expense’ party take over the parliament and media.

  5. Jenny 5
    3 July 2011 at 11:48 am

    .
    Washington OKs Attack on Unarmed US Ship

    Going far beyond a zero sum policy this seems to be a very risky and extreme position for the Obama administration to take.

    Last week, on June 24, six members of Congress signed a letter to Secretary Clinton requesting that she “do everything in her power to work with the Israeli government to ensure the safety of the U.S. citizens on board.” As of this writing, they have not received a response.

    The US citizens aboard “The Audacity of Hope” represent a cross section of mainstream US society. The people who form US opinion.

    Ex US military and intelligence officers, commentators and writers, entertainers and professors, sportsmen and women, clergy and politicians.

    What on earth can the Obama administration be thinking?

    As one commenter remarked:

    You know, Alice Walker wrote “The Color Purple”. Where’s Oprah? If anything happens to Alice or any other person on that boat, there will be HELL TO PAY.

    As another commentator has said, and going on past experience, this will be seen by the Israelis as a green light, to do just that.

  6. Jenny 6
    3 July 2011 at 12:14 pm

    .
    Washington OKs Attack on Unarmed US Ship

    Going far beyond a zero sum policy, this seems to be a very risky and extreme position for the Obama administration to take.

    Last week, on June 24, six members of Congress signed a letter to Secretary Clinton requesting that she “do everything in her power to work with the Israeli government to ensure the safety of the U.S. citizens on board.” As of this writing, they have not received a response.

    The US citizens aboard “The Audacity of Hope” represent a cross section of mainstream US society. The people who form US opinion.

    Ex military and intelligence officers, commentators and writers, entertainers and professors, sportsmen and women, clergy and politicians.

    What on earth can the Obama administration be thinking?

    As one commenter remarked:

    You know, Alice Walker wrote “The Color Purple”. Where’s Oprah? If anything happens to Alice or any other person on that boat, there will be HELL TO PAY.

    As another commentator has said, and going on past experience, this will be seen by the Israelis as a green light, to do just that.

  7. Jenny 7
    3 July 2011 at 3:00 pm

    ‘
    Washington OKs Attack on Unarmed US Ship

    Going far beyond a zero sum policy, this seems to be a very risky and extreme position for the Obama administration to take.

    Last week, on June 24, six members of Congress signed a letter to Secretary Clinton requesting that she “do everything in her power to work with the Israeli government to ensure the safety of the U.S. citizens on board.” As of this writing, they have not received a response.

    The US citizens aboard “The Audacity of Hope” represent a cross section of mainstream US society. The people who form US opinion.

    Ex military and intelligence officers, commentators and writers, entertainers and professors, sportsmen and women, clergy and politicians.

    What on earth can the Obama administration be thinking?

    As one commenter remarked:

    You know, Alice Walker wrote “The Color Purple”. Where’s Oprah? If anything happens to Alice or any other person on that boat, there will be HELL TO PAY.

    As another commentator has said, and going on past experience, this will be seen by the Israelis as a green light, to do just that.

  8. PJ 8
    3 July 2011 at 3:39 pm

    “A group of rich Germans has launched a petition calling for the government to make wealthy people pay higher taxes.

    The group say they have more money than they need, and the extra revenue could fund economic and social programmes to aid Germany’s economic recovery.”

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8321967.stm

    • ianmac 8.1
      3 July 2011 at 3:49 pm

      Sort of what the younger Morgan was getting at but certainly not supported by the rich J Key.

      • joe90 8.1.1
        3 July 2011 at 4:02 pm

        Gary Trudeau’s Doonesbury has been following the rich.

        • ianmac 8.1.1.1
          3 July 2011 at 4:33 pm

          Yep joe. And one way to gloat is to accuse the poor of being envious of the rich. What a worry it would be to be rich! they would be anxious that some would want to tax them or steal from them or be befriended for their money. Poor buggers!

          • joe90 8.1.1.1.1
            3 July 2011 at 6:33 pm

            20,000 Leagues Under the State.

            This disparity has far less to do with some inherent difference in character between the Greatest Generation and their grandchildren than it does with a fundamental change that has taken place in the relationship between citizens and the welfare state. Over the past few decades, while many standard social benefits have atrophied in real value, those packaged as “tax expenditures”—the formal name in federal budgeting parlance for subsidies provided through the tax code—have flourished, growing rapidly in value and number. These tax expenditures for individuals and families represented 7.4 percent of GDP in 2008, up from 4.2 percent in 1976. (Tax expenditures for business, such as those for the oil and gas industry, made up another 1 percent.) By way of comparison, Social Security amounted to 4.3 percent of GDP in 2008; Medicare and Medicaid, 4.1 percent.

  9. Lulu 9
    3 July 2011 at 3:57 pm

    Invercargill school principal Marlene Campbell has compared the actions of Anne Tolley, the Minster of Education, with the propaganda approach taken by Joseph Goebbels. (see interview Cue TV) Previously she compared Anne Tolley, the Minister of Education, with Hitler for the way she was asserting the adoption National Standards in schools.
    “And the MOE attack schools deferring setting targets, that s a constructive response? Excuse me Minister Hitler? Am I in Germany? Is this the end of self managing schools? read Kelvin Smythes latest blog, he is a true hero!” Marlene Campbell face book wall
    As I see it Marlene Campbell is not doing her job as required by her employer as well as opposing the implementation of Government policy in schools and speaking out against it. Could someone help me out here:
    • As an employee shouldn’t she either comply with the requirements of her employer or face discipline?
    • As a public servant how is it that she is getting away with speaking out against Government’s wishes when legions of public servants know that it is not appropriate to speak out against Government policy so they don’t?
    • Should Marlene Campbell expect to get away with contesting education policy as a public servant in the education area and not doing her job as her employer directs?
    • Isn’t her only choice to do her job (and ideally do it well) or get out?

    • ianmac 9.1
      3 July 2011 at 4:44 pm

      Have you noticed Lulu, that the only argument in favour of NS is that it is a chance to beat people about obedience and compliance. What a pity there isn’t some way of showing that NS are beneficial. Can you?
      Some integrated schools have been threatened with withdrawn funding unless they comply. After all they get taxpayers money.
      But wait. Private schools get heaps of taxpayers money too. What’s good for integrated schools should be good for private schools. Yes?
      And anyway if NS were so important and so useful, the private schools would be rushing to join up. But they thank their lucky stars that they don’t have to comply with anything.

    • Jum 9.2
      3 July 2011 at 5:26 pm

      Lulu,

      We should be thankful that people risk their careers to speak out on behalf of our children. Shame on Tolley/Key that neither of them listened to the real experts – the teachers. Even their own resident expert, who was trotted out to put their case, eventually spoke out against it as being flawed. Everyone wanted a trial period with some schools from different areas to show any deficiencies, but neither Tolley nor Key was willing to listen.

      We have only to read the personal accounts of this system in America to understand how demeaning and impersonal this factory-fed analysis is.

      People did not speak out against Hitler; if anyone had bothered to read his Mein Kampf they would never have allowed him to gain any power. Key is a populist politician (so was Hitler) who knows how uninformed and politically lazy the Kiwi masses are; his popularity even after his lying to us, is evidence of that. His pretence at giving people choices was immediately negated by the way he signed off on Hide to demolish any sense of democratic right to select committee consultation – there was none with the first Auckland bill which removed all our assets to a property CCO which in July 2012 can sell off our assets like Ports of Auckland if people vote this asset-stripping government back in.

      National standards pays more attention to educating to pass tests (which under National will be frozen for the masses at factory farming level) than it does to educating people to have a better, rounded future. Science and literature which engages the imagination and stargazing has been shut out by this government. Learning is not compartmental. You teach the basics by involving the senses and the imagination.

      Masses or individual plans – you choose. So much for the NActMU government that talks about individual freedom of choice yet practises elitist treatment of moneyed schools and factory farming of other students.

      Reach for the stars with Labour/Progressive/Greens or mine the pits with National/Act/Maori/United Future – your choice, Lulu?

      • Lulu 9.2.1
        3 July 2011 at 6:21 pm

        As a parent of school age children I am uncomfortable with an individual principal breaking their rules of employment and the protocols of being in the public service. My children are taught to work hard, strive for excellence (within capability), comply with authority, achieve within the framework or industry they choose and reach a point where they can legitimately influence if that is what they want to do with their careers. That is how both of us parents behave and we are both successful in our chosen fields.
        There are bodies that are free to legitimately question national standards. In my post I did not question national standards. I questioned the ill disciplined poor example set by Marlene Campbell. Your agreement with her view doesn’t justify her behaviour. If she feels so strongly she should go and join whatever organisation is set up to question government policy. If my child was in her school I would withdraw him/her in response to the poor example MC sets the children in her school.
        Both of you ignored my point and both of you failed to address my questions. You are both guilty of the approach Marlene Campbell described as propaganda and associated with Goebbels. Shame on you both. (Unless of course you don’t have school age children in which case you are simply ignorant.)

        • Jum 9.2.1.1
          3 July 2011 at 7:37 pm

          I answered your post in my first sentence, Key-flunky. “We should be thankful that people risk their careers to speak out on behalf of our children.” Shame on you Lulu for not addressing your own Hitler comment “getting away with speaking out against Government’s wishes when legions of public servants know that it is not appropriate to speak out against Government policy so they don’t?” New Zealand is a free country Lulu, or it was until 9 November 2008. Not speaking out gets you Nazi Germany or another NAct government.

          First paragraph ‘My children…fields – ditto, except we differ in that I tell mine to question everything and only comply with authority when it is sensible policy. When you don’t question you end up with Key and Co.

          ‘Comply with authority’? Complying with authority to me is not driving the wrong way down a one-way street because I know the government is considering my safety and the efficiency of the traffic. That is a good compliance. Having a 21st century public transport system would be even better but I daresay as a Key-flunky you want everyone to drive a car and give Key’s government a lot of money through that system.

          The only question I need to ask Lulu is which group do I trust? The teachers that want only the best teaching system for my children or Key and Co that have lied on so many levels and then intend to steal SOE assets that belong to my children’s children, by lying about the fact that partially privatised assets are controlled by private interests; they’re certainly not in all New Zealanders’ interests… I think you know my reply.

          I’d back the teachers every time because I know they have principles, AND PRINCIPALS WITH PRINCIPLES. Key has none; he is a liar and intends to sign off on the theft of and sell off of my family’s SOE assets.

          We have too many bottom-lickers in this country Lulu but I’ll leave that role with you; you appear to be so well suited to it.

          PS I shall send a congratulatory message to Marlene Campbell for ‘doing her job’. With educators like her I believe New Zealand actually still has a chance to be an egalitarian country once again, if we can just get rid of the Kerrs and the Deanes and the Keys and the Fay Richwhites and other bottom feeders. The best support I can be is to support the Marlenes of this country and destroy the more shameful aspects of this bottom-feeding cycle of National/Act. Goodbye Lulu.

          • Lulu 9.2.1.1.1
            3 July 2011 at 8:47 pm

            Hi Jum,

            I didn’t mention Key. Or Clark. Or any other PM or any ideology. And I didn’t use capital letters. I think you need to have a little lie down.

        • Puddleglum 9.2.1.2
          3 July 2011 at 8:14 pm

          “My children are taught to work hard, strive for excellence (within capability), comply with authority, achieve within the framework or industry they choose and reach a point where they can legitimately influence if that is what they want to do with their careers.”

          and

          “There are bodies that are free to legitimately question national standards.”

          Lulu,

          The difference between you and me, I think, is that I am bringing my daughter up to live by principles rather than confine her protests to when some social structure or authority tells her that she now has a ‘legitimate‘ right to ‘influence‘ outcomes. I believe and fervently hope, for example, that my daughter will grow up to be the kind of person who is both capable and willing to engage in civil disobedience when an important principle is being over-ridden by some ‘legitimate authority’ (e.g., the British Raj in Gandhi’s time).

          Instilling in children the importance of only opening their mouths once they have a right to do so bestowed upon them by a higher authority is not a developmental path I would wish to choose for my child.

          BTW, I also encourage my daughter not to be trivial in her ‘rebellions’.

          Edit: I see Ianupnorth has made a similar point below.

          • Lulu 9.2.1.2.1
            3 July 2011 at 8:59 pm

            Fair and interesting point Puddleglum. Do we want our children to be known as effective leaders or known for civil disobedience? I think leaders in their field can achieve more for them and their nation. (absent fundamental causes like the civil rights movement in America.) Having said that I seemd to have stirred up such a hornetss nest I might just have to withdraw gracefully. I haven’t stated a view on NS. I just don’t think Marlene Campbell is noble. I think she is out of control and ineffective comparing Ministers of any ilk with famlous nazis. That is just vacuous smartarse nonsense. Old Jum there would be quick to point that out if it was a “Key-flunky” acting like her. But I suppose the view is pretty clear through one eye.

            • Puddleglum 9.2.1.2.1.1
              3 July 2011 at 10:28 pm

              “ Do we want our children to be known as effective leaders or known for civil disobedience?”

              There’s not necessarily a conflict there. It is possible to be an effective leader via (or while using, or after having used) civil disobedience. It’s obviously a matter of judgment as to when it is necessary to disobey and I admit that their are many possible inappropriate motives for such disobedience and even many inappropriate causes (often the two are intertwined). But, in my view, in an imperfect world it is infinitely better that people err on the side of ‘civil disobedience’ than obedience when it is morally questionable. My understanding is that when the contest is between complex social structures (e.g., the education system, the economic system) and leaders who attempt to reform those systems then the system will win, hands down – though it might offer a minor, and reversible, ‘win’ for the leader in the interim.

              This is a major dilemma, especially in our modern world. How many of us have found ourselves compromising our principles with the only consolation for our guilty consciences being the thought (or rationalisation) that the consequences of standing on our principles might be worse than the ill we wish to cure?

              Personally, I don’t think that what is wrong with the world is principally the result of too many people standing on their principles (rather than being pragmatic and trying to change things – ‘lead’ – from inside the system).

        • Colonial Viper 9.2.1.3
          3 July 2011 at 8:26 pm

          …I would withdraw him/her in response to the poor example MC sets the children in her school…both of you failed to address my questions. You are both guilty of the approach Marlene Campbell described as propaganda and associated with Goebbels. Shame on you both.

          Yes lets scold adults like they are children and infantalize them, very good.

          I am uncomfortable with an individual principal breaking their rules of employment and the protocols of being in the public service.

          This Government is determined to treat the public sector worker as easily expendable like any private sector employee.

          So why are you surprised when they no longer follow the rules you think that they should?

        • Draco T Bastard 9.2.1.4
          3 July 2011 at 8:49 pm

          Teaching people to comply with authority is the worst thing you can do. Teach people to do what is needed because it is right not because some authority figure says to. Keep following your line and we’ll end up as a dictatorship again.

          • Lulu 9.2.1.4.1
            3 July 2011 at 9:04 pm

            Jeez Draco T. What would we get if no one complied with authority? Isn’t our whole civilisation based on forming and reforming order?
            Hey Draco, answer me a question, have you got a job?

            • Draco T Bastard 9.2.1.4.1.1
              3 July 2011 at 10:13 pm

              What would we get if no one complied with authority?

              Well, if they still did as needed because it was the right thing to do then we’d probably end up being pretty well off. As has been noted before – the most ordered of societies are anarchist.

          • M 9.2.1.4.2
            3 July 2011 at 9:30 pm

            An important distinction Draco – well said.

          • Colonial Viper 9.2.1.4.3
            3 July 2011 at 9:39 pm

            Isn’t our whole civilisation based on forming and reforming order?

            Read what you just wrote.

            The reforming of order usually requires that the previous formation of order is superceeded, replaced, or otherwise usurped.

            Not complying with the previous formation of authority is necessary in this.

            Do we want our children to be known as effective leaders or known for civil disobedience?

            You better study the lives of Gandhi and Martin Luther King. You’re revealing significant gaps in your conceptualisation of what being a “leader” is all about.

            Hey Draco, answer me a question, have you got a job?

            Very revealing.

            I’m sure you think that Gandhi and Martin Luther King both should have been doing some productive 9 to 5 job instead of being trouble makers involved in civil disobedience

            • Lulu 9.2.1.4.3.1
              3 July 2011 at 10:22 pm

              Aww thank you Colonial Viper,
              I though Draco was one of us. If I had realised he was the next Gandhi and Martin Luther King I wouldn’t have asked the question.
              I am beginning to wish I hadn’t raised this.
              Last thought, A couple of comments have been thoughtful and interesting but I on balance noone has really change my position i.e. that Marlene Campbell is not doing the job I expect of my kids’ principal and she is letting down all of the public servants who do theirs. I think she is an embarrassment to the public service and the teaching profession. I think she will be ineffective and I am not comfortable with her drawing a salary made up from our taxes.

              • Colonial Viper …
                3 July 2011 at 10:33 pm

                Marlene Campbell is not doing the job I expect of my kids’ principal and she is letting down all of the public servants who do theirs. I think she is an embarrassment to the public service and the teaching profession. I think she will be ineffective and I am not comfortable with her drawing a salary made up from our taxes.

                Wow how much personal attack spin can you put in 3 sentences, I’m bloody impressed mate.

                It’s fairly clear now that your idea of “leaders” are apparatchiks for the machine.

                I am not comfortable with her drawing a salary made up from our taxes.

                Lolzwut.

                I’m not comfortable with Bill English drawing a ~$300K p.a. in salary (very gd – you avoided the use of the word “earning” a salary, clever professional PR languaging) made up from our taxes to sell off this country to foreigners and in doing so deprive all of our children of years of valuable revenue streams which will end up in foreign hands, but what the hey. Life’s not perfect.

                I though Draco was one of us.

                You’re part of the Tory Right Wing spin machine.

                Please continue.

    • Ianupnorth 9.3
      3 July 2011 at 6:33 pm

      As an employee shouldn’t she either comply with the requirements of her employer or face discipline?

      If the evidence clearly informs a practitioner that a specific process is potentially harmful to those receiving should they whistle blow or comply with governments instructions?
       
      I would say they have a right to protect those in question; you would expect a doctor or surgeon to follow best practice, similarly an airline pilot, same for a fireman, officer of the law, etc – why not teachers who know more about education that Anne Tolley
       

      As a public servant how is it that she is getting away with speaking out against Government’s wishes when legions of public servants know that it is not appropriate to speak out against Government policy so they don’t?

      I regularly speak out against government policy here, but I do not reveal my name or employer, as I am technically not permitted to do so; maybe she is braver than me!

      Should Marlene Campbell expect to get away with contesting education policy as a public servant in the education area and not doing her job as her employer directs?
       

      In my opinion, yes; however, I hope she has a strong union and lots of parental support
       

      Isn’t her only choice to do her job (and ideally do it well) or get out?

       
      I commend her actions, but then again I actually work within that sector and am a parent, so I have read widely on this; my kids also went through this in the UK and I said never again!
       

      • Lulu 9.3.1
        3 July 2011 at 7:18 pm

        Thank you Iamupnorth. You have shown up ianmac and jum and demonstrated my point well. Go well and good luck. As far as Marlene is concerned, she is not braver than you, she is just plain stupid. Those other two are merely the propagandists Marlene complains about – or would do if they weren’t sympathetic to her view. Marlene is such a hypocrite. I hope she gets her butt kicked.

        • Jum 9.3.1.1
          3 July 2011 at 10:45 pm

          I think I spent my time wisely tonight. Instead of staying involved with the Lulu I watched Sunday Theatre about the National Gallery paintings and a township of people who probably did everything but ‘comply’ – and they were magnificent.

          Best laughs and tears I’ve had in ages.

      • Ianupnorth 9.3.2
        3 July 2011 at 7:24 pm

        Your reply came through about the same time as I was typing mine; your line

        My children are taught to work hard, strive for excellence (within capability), comply with authority, achieve within the framework or industry they choose and reach a point where they can legitimately influence if that is what they want to do with their careers.
         

        Your thoughts/views are probably very, very similar to the majority of parents who want the best for their children. I would challenge you on one specific line
         

        comply with authority
         

        I want my children to have the ability to challenge the status quo, to respect that there is law, but also that sometimes law needs to change because it isn’t fair. Employees should have the right to make a similar stand should they perceive that it will disadvantage specific groups. National standards have been shown to do many things – improving educational outcomes is not one of them.

  10. Alice 10
    3 July 2011 at 4:27 pm

    Stop being stubborn- you are re-birthing as we speak and guess who is your new Mother?

    And your name is- ARES!

  11. Jum 11
    3 July 2011 at 4:31 pm

    Dick Quax – yet another flawed model of greed for the developers and reducing our environmental life and sanity saving greenspace.

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/AK1107/S00042/dick-quax-maiden-speech-to-auckland-council.htm

    Run for your life, people.

    • rosy 11.1
      3 July 2011 at 6:02 pm

      oh dear…. maybe Dick Quax is one man who does need a taxpayer-funded trip to see some of the compact cities in Europe. I cannot believe that anyone still believes sprawling cities are an ideal form.

      It will be no surprise to you that I support a more dispersed urban form than being promoted. The focus on a compact city is flawed and housing unaffordability is just one of the unintended consequences of that flawed model.

      It also leads to more congestion and more pollution. It places more pressure on aging infrastructure.
      It’s also a socially flawed concept associated with transience, increased crime and a loss of sense of community. It reduces green space and is unfriendly to children.

      I wouldn’t mind seeing where he got his ‘facts’ from.

      • Anne 11.1.1
        3 July 2011 at 6:47 pm

        Well rosy he used to be an ACT supporter and as far as I know he still is…

  12. Jum 12
    3 July 2011 at 4:35 pm

    LPrent,

    The only problem with each open mike is that we all want to display our current gripes and perfectly good threads get passed by with new threads. Now and again I recopy them under my title but showing copyright. Is there any way to separate out the different subjects because some/many/most posters read only the final post, or simply post theirs?

  13. Draco T Bastard 13
    3 July 2011 at 5:06 pm

    Greece: No Deal without a National Referendum

    The fight for Europe’s future is being waged in Athens and other Greek cities to resist financial demands that are the 21st century’s version of an outright military attack. The threat of bank overlordship is not the kind of economy-killing policy that affords opportunities for heroism in armed battle, to be sure. Destructive financial policies are more like an exercise in the banality of evil – in this case, the pro-creditor assumptions of the European Central Bank (ECB), EU and IMF (egged on by the U.S. Treasury).

    Further on he points out that the privatisation that is being forced upon Greece is nothing less than the wars for territory of previous centuries. He is, of course, correct. The same applies to the privatisation of our assets here in NZ.

  14. Alice 14
    3 July 2011 at 6:28 pm

    Ian what I do know is- you are not going to die in an earthquake, either will I!

    You will solve the case, and you and I are safe.

    This information I HAVE RIGHT!

    I am not ignorant, the above information IS CORRECT!

  15. Ianupnorth 15
    3 July 2011 at 7:31 pm

    From our Facebook friend ‘Vote for change’
    (NB I joined so i could express my comments – so don’t flame me!!)

    Vote for Change Press Release
    Alex Fogerty
    July 3 2011
    Vote for Change is investigating allegations made about a member of its organisation. The allegations of Mr Fogerty’s previous membership of a white supremacist group appear to be true and he will be asked to resign his membership immediately, or have his membership revoked if he chooses not to resign.
    Many political organisations some members have pasts that are not entirely to their credit, or the credit of the organisation they belong to. In the 2008 election Labour lost high ranking list candidate Stephen Ching and National lost New Plymouth candidate Clem Coxhead, who was replaced by Jonathan Young ten weeks from the election. Both men left their roles with the respective parties because of issues with their past that their parties did not know about.
    Vote for Change has found itself in a similar position as both Labour and National did in 2008.
    Vote for Change will not be commenting on this unfortunate matter further.
    Jordan Williams   021762542
     

    They do have some interesting people supporting their cause!

  16. Colonial Viper 16
    3 July 2011 at 8:09 pm

    Rod Oram says we need Corporate Reform more than we need Welfare Reform, and that John Key does not get it

    If anything, things have got worse. “I first started talking to John Key when he was chosen to be opposition finance spokesperson, and I always found he knew surprisingly little about the economy, and it was very superficial…he just doesn’t get it. He thinks that if you just increase the irrigated land in Canterbury by 40% then that this is economic growth. Even though the Cabinet papers have shown an internal rate of return [from irrigation] of 6.4% . That’s a lousy investment. They just don’t get it. The government is solely focussed on the incremental growth of existing business.”

  18. Alice 18
    3 July 2011 at 11:19 pm

    Jum, as soon as you start being positive, you will shine.
    Somehow framing me, it just isn’t going to work, and by the time you break the case, you and I are going to be in harmony.

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