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Open mike 03/09/2012

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 3rd, 2012 - 120 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

120 comments on “Open mike 03/09/2012 ”

  1. Jenny 1

    .
    http://www.facebook.com/events/376891172379944/

    Concerned Citizens presents:
    Wellington fundraiser for the displaced people of Syria

    Saturday 15 September 8pm @ 13 Garrett Street, Wellington
    The Garret St party fundraiser is for the charitable foundation in Yarmouk Palestinian refugee camp in Syria, now a shelter for many internally displaced families.
    Featuring the amazing bands:
    The Body Lyre
    All Seeing Hand
    Hutt Old Boys

    $10 donation. All proceeds to Jafra Foundation in Yarmouk, Damascus.

    http://kiaoragaza.wordpress.com/2012/08/23/wellington-fundraiser-for-the-displaced-people-of-syria/

    • lprent 2.1

      We’re out of the usual winter drop early courteousy of David Shearer and his across street medical diagnosis. That and other stories gave us a 50% lift in page views over a few weeks in August.

      We usually get a few months of rising figures post winter with a abrupt drop as everyone digests Xmas and then a slow rise over summer and spring before it drops into winter again in may/june.

      The only thing that usually shifts the seasonal cycle (and why we have a seasonal cycle is beyond me) is the gradual rise over the years, and the abrupt lift we get in election years and subsequent drop the year after that we had in 2009. I am happy to say that we haven’t had the post election drop this year – we have been tracking at last years levels over winter – a lot better than 2009.

      • just saying 2.1.1

        Let’s just hope that one or two of those are members of the Labour caucus, who have previously proactively avoided paying any attention to us, or anyone else in the left/centre left.

  2. muzza 3

    You’re trusting someone else to keep your stuff secure.

    Internal Affairs Minister Chris Tremain last week confirmed the Government was “taking the next steps towards the adoption of cloud computing, paving the way for improved services and cost savings”.

    “Cloud computing is an exciting, emerging technology which will contribute directly to better public services, promote innovation, and substantially reduce costs,” said Mr Tremain.

    However, the cloud computing industry remains in its infancy and has come in for criticism over data security.

    Apple co-founder Steve Wozniak recently warned there would be “a lot of horrible problems” over coming years as a result of businesses and agencies placing their data on the cloud.

    “The more we transfer everything onto the web, onto the cloud, the less we’re going to have control over it.”

    • Dv 3.1

      One issue that was missed was the DotCom effect.

      What control would we have on ‘others’ forcing severs to be taken down on ‘any’ pretext.

      • lprent 3.1.1

        It is an issue that I expend time thinking about for this site. Most of the server sites I look at get rejected when I ask them the question about what they would do if they received a letter from a lawyer making an unsubstantiated claim..

        Less of a problem with the offshore sites.

        • Dv 3.1.1.1

          >>get rejected when I ask them the question about what they would do if they received a letter from a lawyer making an unsubstantiated claim..

          So what do they answer to get a rejection?

          • lprent 3.1.1.1.1

            That they immediately take the site down to reduce their liability. From what I have seen most of the complaints woudn’t stand a chance in court, but it costs them to even check that out.

            Sites here and offshore have been getting increasing end run plays whereby the complaint isn’t made to the site operator. It is made to the hosting company to try and pressure them. One of the main reasons that we run warm backups.

      • Vicky32 3.1.2

        One issue that was missed was the DotCom effect.

        Good point!

    • BernyD 3.2

      We should be building our own clouds, even selling them internationally
      More than enough skill in NZ

      • Dv 3.2.1

        Sort of like dotcom?

        • BernyD 3.2.1.1

          Maybe, I don’t think he runs servers in NZ, but when you think about it, we should be getting in now when the industry is still emerging, it’s almost to late.

          A group of smaller businesses could co-op/fund the startup, after that it should be able to stand on it’s own.

          The government and opposition talk about encouraging business, but it’s ideas that are lacking, this one is just begging for someone in NZ

          • Dv 3.2.1.1.1

            You are right about about the dotcom servers, they were offshore.

            BUT the problem of security is significant, what is to stop the take down orders from ‘any one’.

            See lpents answer above.

            • BernyD 3.2.1.1.1.1

              As its fairly new the “Processes” aren’t in place, but as time goes on they will have precedents to work with.

              The “Cloud” doesn’t have to market to the general public, and the concept of data wharehousing has been in use in the commercial sense since the 1950s

              It’s almost walked a full circle in that regard, so I don’t think “Take down orders” are any more of a risk than power failure.

              A cloud company “Risk” is minimal all they do is provide data if court ordered, otherwise it’s business as usual.

              It all comes down to the contract the cloud client signs, they’d still be paying for the service even if it has been “Injuncted”

              The rest is in the hands of the court

              • BernyD

                Using virtual machines on a 64bit os, you could do it with one machine
                Farm out the VMs as it grows, easy

                • Colonial Viper

                  we can’t supply overseas customers with bandwidth. And we refuse to invest in it. End of line.

          • muzza 3.2.1.1.2

            New Zealand could help set the standard for cloud computing services in Australia and beyond.

            The Institute of Information Technology Professionals, previously the Computer Society, finalised a voluntary code in May that set out the information cloud computing companies should provide to customers about their services.

            That includes where servers and backup systems are located, whether and how customers will be able to access their data if they stop paying for a service, and how – and how often – cloud providers will back up their data.

            Chief executive Paul Matthews said the code would “almost definitely” be adopted in Australia and it was very likely to go further afield.

            “It could go from a New Zealand code of practice to a global code of practice, but we will see.”

            The code has been backed by big international vendors Google and Salesforce.com, as well as local ones such as Telecom’s Gen-i and Xero, all of which are keen to promote cloud computing as a safe option compared to businesses hosting their own computer systems in-house.

            Par Botes, Singapore-based vice president of computer storage giant EMC and chairman of the Asian Cloud Computing Association, said the code was a “good start” which he expected would evolve, for example to explain what information cloud-based providers should give customers’ about their rights if they were taken over

            Scenario:

            1: Government proceeds with outsourcing of IT (services, data management, infrastructure etc)
            2: TPPA is signed, and “in effect”
            3: Outsourced cloud “provider of choice”, has security breach, or some other similar occurance
            4: Government attempts to bring services, data management, infrastructure back “in-house”
            5: Government is stonewalled, sued or similar using TPPA agreement…

            Something along those lines…

            • BernyD 3.2.1.1.2.1

              Good to know, thanks 🙂

              • muzza

                Think of it this way – If you don’t own the company(assumed outsourced) who stores/manages and thus controls your data, and/or the infrastructure it is housed on…

                THEN YOU DONT/CANT CONTROL IT!

                No amount of legislation or voluntary codes of practice is going to prevent, or change that!

                Its rather like holding an IOU for some gold – Someone else controls the physical gold, you are holding a piece of paper!

            • Draco T Bastard 3.2.1.1.2.2

              Government should be running it’s own cloud and not outsourcing. There’s no way that private companies should have government data in a place where they can access it.

              • muzza

                Correct DTB, that is exactly what should be happening, but won’t!

                The dollar savings have been estimated in a paper that will be presented to Cabinet within the month, Internal Affairs Minister Chris Tremain says

                However, a public servant told Fairfax Media in January that he feared the Government might press ahead without understanding all the privacy ramifications, including those of the Patriot Act in the United States which can oblige organisations with a presence in the US to secretly release information to US authorities.

                The options are expected to include using Microsoft software hosted in the cloud either in New Zealand or overseas, or a combination of the two, or making more use of Google software hosted overseas.

                Tremain said the Government would need to be clear about the security of cloud-based applications and data sovereignty issues before deciding where to go next

                Tremain said switching to cloud-based applications could follow on naturally from the Government’s decision to centralise the procurement of computer infrastructure through data centre providers Datacom, IBM and Revera.

                He was encouraged by the volume of business conducted in the year to June as a result of those whole-of-government “infrastructure-as-a-service” contracts.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  
 that is exactly what should be happening, but won’t!

                  Of course it won’t, the rich can’t get their hands on government funds if the government does stuff itself.

  3. On the weekend I saw a piece by Jake Tame where he interviewed people attending the Republican National Convention. One woman asserted that Romney was a self made man who came from nothing, “He wasn’t born with a silver spoon in his mouth” – Seriously?!
    Is that the calibre of the Romney supporters? I doubt she was representative but there is a lot more to Romney than the average punter will be aware.
    He’s Gordon Ghekko!
    Rollingstone has a a good piece on his background
    Geed and Debt: The True Story of Mitt Romney and Bain Capital

    • tc 4.1

      Mittens is the best Obama could hope for, when the time is right in the presidential race they’ll open him up like the can of worms he is and will find it all too taxing.

  4. Peter 5

    Banks cause house price increases not population growth or demand

    http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2012/08/28/why-exactly-are-homes-so-expensive/

    • vto 5.1

      That is of course no surprise and merely the logical conclusion of the system we allow the banks to operate under. A bit of thinking leads to horrible conclusions…..

  5. Carol 6

    Is there no end to the mean-spirited, control-freak viciousness of the owner- & boss-classes?

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/7597894/Your-boss-could-put-a-stop-to-quick-smoko-breaks

    Leaving your desk to stretch your legs, or popping out for a bite of lunch, could soon be outlawed, critics of a Government bill say.

    Legislation under consideration would mean workers could be required to keep up their work duties or remain in the workplace during their paid and unpaid breaks, if their boss asks.

    Council of Trade Unions policy analyst Eileen Brown said adequate breaks were a basic employment right, and essential for the health and safety of workers. “A break is a break – there should be quite clear time off for a break. We don’t agree that having a break means you are still available to work.”

    Labour industrial relations spokeswoman Darien Fenton said she believed people could not be made to work for nothing – which was what the bill would amount to. Workers had a fundamental right to breaks, no matter what industry they were in, and even if they were working alone.

    She had heard of shop assistants working alone having to close their stores to use a mall bathroom because their stores lacked facilities – and then being disciplined by their bosses for it.

    Instead, it’d be better for the majority, if those near the top of the corporate hierarchy took a pay cut, and were banned from expensive work lunches and other over-paid freebies.

    • BernyD 6.1

      They’re trying to force a wokaholics’ work practices onto everyone.
      It worked for them, those blighters just need to emulate ME !

    • fnjckg 6.2

      “Masters/slaves”
      (btw, i still believe i am on the correct page)

      and while here; RH should hide; a “legend” in his own mind.(small legend, may have just been a little gossip)

      DNFTT(Contrary, to popular belief)

    • Rosie 6.3

      Hi Carol,

      The comments are up on the Dom Post story. So far, this time more against this amendment which is a nice change.

      http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/7597835/Your-boss-could-put-a-stop-to-quick-smoko-breaks

      I remember when the idea for this ammendment was first put forward several years ago and at that time I was working alone in a store where I had no breaks in the two years I was there. Having National wanting to introduce more legislation that removes employee’s hard won rights is an insult to workers and especially to and to the thousands of workers that are already coping with unfair work practices.

    • Uturn 6.4

      Article written by… Fairfax NZ News. Is that what news is these days, the product of children indoctrinated at one of 5 Fairfax endorsed journalism schools?

      “Labour industrial relations spokeswoman Darien Fenton said she believed people could not be made to work for nothing…”

      Should I bother to ask what that means? Did Fenton really say such a timid thing, or is it an uninterested unprofessional third-party observation, or was it a wantonly deceitful lie on behalf of Fairfax? Fenton has commented here before, perhaps she could clear up exactly what she said.

      As for the story itself, well gee, what a totally unexpected insight into an, at least, 25 year old argument. Discussing the Yea or Nea of a Fairfax instigated proposition would be to fall into the trap of measuring reality by neo-liberal cultural norms, and by doing so unwittingly defend it. Does no one understand anymore that arguing the question of breaks or not, slavery or not, isn’t a Left-wing perspective?

      • Carol 6.4.1

        Uturn, the general aim for the left should be much broader than small issues like work breaks. But, this is a far bigger and longer project to tackle. Meanwhile, do we just sit back and do/say nothing while the powerful classes tighten the screws bit-by-bit on the most vulnerable and powerless workers?

        • Uturn 6.4.1.1

          Being drawn into small skirmishes under the opponent’s terms drains the energy and distorts the beliefs of essential party members and the goodwill of allies. The party, the movement, loses by undermining itself; if it wins the battle, it’s a prize that is not worth winning. This industrial relations issue is not a new issue, it’s a trick designed to wound and confuse.

          You suggest strategy. Leaders talking about the broader picture would confirm to people a constructive perspective; they’d be secure in knowing how to fight, when to fight and secure in knowing when not to fight; and not so easily manipulated by their opponents.

          The Left is supposed to be about the politics of common people for common people, but no one in a position of influence talks about the wider perspective outside of middle class definitions. These leaders sigh in relief that they can so easily manipulate a well intentioned rush to the barricades by concened people, not caring in the slightest that it leads those people to believe that fighting frontal attacks on every single issue handed to them is the only option. Choosing not to fight is not the same as sitting back and doing nothing.

          Articulating a direction isn’t too hard, it just isn’t done anymore and when in it’s place we’re asked to support and get “strategic” advice from people whose ideas amount to a demand of “Let’s bash the vulnerable because if we don’t, someone more vicious will!” then we’re no longer on the left hand side of the line.

          • Carol 6.4.1.1.1

            Well, I disagree, on the small skirmishes points, Uturn.

            I agree that the left, especially Labour, needs to have more well-defined and left wing direction. But, meanwhile, I don’t think we can just watch the death of the most vulnerable by a thousand cuts, without protesting. Both broad campaign and the small struggles are important.

          • Bored 6.4.1.1.2

            Articulating a direction isn’t too hard…it is if the language used is that framed by OR the same as that of the enemy. Which is why “spin doctors” and PR people who come from the same stable (used by National such as Pagani) are of so little value to the left.

      • fnjckg 6.4.2

        anyway, Hong Kong implementing “moral and national” education syllabus aligned with China.
        (visits to Mao) -WSJ

    • millsy 6.5

      If anyone thinks that I should work a single minute and not get paid, then they can get fucked. Plain and simple.

    • Bored 6.6

      Is there no end to the mean-spirited, control-freak viciousness of the owner- & boss-classes?

      Might I ask how you are remunerated? Do you have a salaried job, a tenured position, a secure job underwritten by taxes? Are you a shareholder? Or a rentier? Or a manager / boss?

      Forgive my cynicism but as an employer comments lumping us all together gets right up my nose. I never ste out to become an owner / bosses class member (it was more a case of creating a job so I had one).

      For the record, making sure my employees get paid comes very high on my priority list. It comes before paying me…most employers I know do the same. It is an area fraught with conflicting emotions etc, as an employer I don’t particularly want any responsibility for the workers nor any gratitude / obligations etc.

      With regard to this proposed legislation it is crap on too many fronts: its unworkable and it is unnecessary. As a pro Union person I agree fully with Eileen Brown: any employer with half a brain would do the same. At the same time we employers are probably also worried about where the current working practices leave us with regard to liability for worker safety etc etc. each coin has two sides.

      • Carol 6.6.1

        My apologies, bored, if you think I was referring to small business owners with that comment. I had more in mind the wealthy corporates – it is them that I see as the boss-classes.

        Some of those with cushy top management public sector jobs can be just as mean-spirited as those within the corporate world – Auckland Council CCO CEOs, for instance.

        Small business-owners don’t usually have that much power. For instance, in the discussion/interviews on the issue on RNZ this morning, it was claimed some Mall owners won’t allow some retail workers to close the shop for a pee-break.

        I do understand that most owners/managers of small business do not have the power and wealth of the corporate bosses, and work hard to reasonable living while using fair practices.

        • Bored 6.6.1.1

          Apology accepted. I really am genuinely worried for the people of this land: the vast majority of us get paid as either small business owners or small business employees. The fat is running out rapidly, the bones are appearing under the skin. When our skin parts exposing the bones then corporate NZ will rapidly follow.

          Can I ask if you are currently active within Labour to tell them how it really is: if they agree tell them we don’t hear their response loudly enough.

          • Carol 6.6.1.1.1

            Bored, yes I am worried for the NZ people, too.

            No, I am not now nor ever have been a party member, Labour or otherwise. I have some left principles/values, and each election try to vote for the party that comes closest. Hence I have voted for a few different left/left-leaning parties in my time – usually what I perceive to be the lesser of evils at them time. I haven’t voted for the Labour party for a few elections now, though have voted for Cunliffe in my electorate.

            I have difficulty sticking to any party line.

        • Rosie 6.6.1.2

          Sorry to jump in here between your discussion. Carol, as a worker (albeit an unemployed at the moment!)and work rights advocate I can assure you that its ALL employers that employees worry about and feel insecure about. Often it is the small business employer/family run business that isn’t familair with the law or is being unreasonable. That is the experience for many workers. Sometimes inexperience in regard to the Employment Relations Act on the part of the employee and the employer can lead to unneccesary conflict.
          Bored, of course, is the exception to the common experience and I’d say that its Bored’s thoughtful and intelligent approach that make his workplace a successful and productive one even in the face of unprecendented economic challenges. Good on you Bored!
          Also, we do beat up alot on multi national, big corporates etcs, and rightly so, given bad corporate behaviour however, these big employers often have sound and fair contracts with their employers. Many of them don’t want to run the risk of being invloved in expensive personal grievance claims so its in their interests to make an effort to genuinely act in good faith. Workers in the corporate world can have access to perks that the regular worker can only dream of. I know of several corporates that offer 5 weeks annual leave, mental health days, and access to the Employee Assistance Programme. EAP provides confidential counselling for employees and is funded by the employer. (The employer never knows who has had counselling, they just get the bill). Currently, we have 4 weeks annual leave and 5 days sick leave. That sick leave for many has to cover bereavement leave and domestic leave. Corps often have separate leave allowances which may amount to 20 +days annually.
          Of course it isn’t all roses for all corporate employees but those I know that work for these companies have far better work conditions that oftgen exceed the bounds of NZ’s E.R.A.

          • Carol 6.6.1.2.1

            Ah, well, Rosie, it is difficult to generalise, then. But, apart from who is at fault, the government has been steadily whittling away the hard won gains for workers’ rights. And many unscrupulous employers will take advantage.

            Many corporates may give workers good conditions, but some don’t: e.g. some of the burger chains. And some public sector employers are doing their best to undermine workers; e.g. Ports of Auckland vs MUNZ….. not to mention the driving down of wages and conditions of the least powerful in both public and private workplaces…. cleaners for instance.

            • Rosie 6.6.1.2.1.1

              Agree with you fully Carol. Large multi national involved in hospitality, food service, agri business and retail are well known corporate offenders. I was referring more to those in the office and internal sales environment. It’s interesting though. In countries where they have better employment law, (e.g Australia, Germany) those corporates will comply with the law where as in countries with sloppier employment law (eg NZ, USA) they will fully take advantage of loop holes and weak clauses. Corporate behaviour can really vary country to country.

              You’re right about hard won gains being whittled away. Of the thirty three odd changes that Nat has made to employment law since they came to power I think the worst would be the 90 day bill. What other developed democratically organised country contravenes the International Labour Organisations’s standards?
              Actually the USA does but its still depressing that we’ve come to this, our post 2008 NZ, after decades and generations of hard work by workers, unions and good employers. Its a very insecure environment for workers now.

              • Carol

                Well, I think that the multinational corporates, whether or not they provide good pay and working conditions, have defined and dominated the context that small businesses operate in. And a lot of the MO has come out of the US corporate world in the last few decades.

                They have made it harder for small NZ businesses to operate and provide a living for their owners and workers.

                • Bored

                  Carol / Rosie, I would dearly love to see a return to compulsory unionism and arbitration in small work places. Most employers would not agree but many would: what it does for me in the first instance is protect me from price gouging by employers with lower cost staff, and secondly from gouging by employees with pay demands.

    • Draco T Bastard 6.7

      Is there no end to the mean-spirited, control-freak viciousness of the owner- & boss-classes?

      No, there isn’t.

      • Bored 6.7.1

        Draco, I see the bad behavior from both employers and employees: having said that power positions corrupt and corporations in particular encourage a degree of psychopathic behavior.

        Interestingly when the Soviet Union existed with so called socialism there was also psychopathology inherent in the system: power corrupting again. The lesson is that power relationships enable and encourage “mean-spirited, control-freak viciousness” from those in power. Any system without severe limitations on power is in trouble: nobody has been able to limit the power of the banksters by making them adhere to existing law.

        I don’t think in the case of the corporate owners and the banksters that the money is of any consequence: the desire for power drives the psychopathic behavior of those at the top.

    • Vicky32 6.8

      Legislation under consideration would mean workers could be required to keep up their work duties or remain in the workplace during their paid and unpaid breaks, if their boss asks.

      Yes, that really stinks! Rather 19th century…

  6. captain hook 7

    Yes they have gone crazy.
    Phill whats his name rang off from RNZ this morning so he could not be quizzed after the other side had their say this morning.
    Carol is write about sociopathic employers.
    the country is ready to go on the wonk.

  7. Never heard of the Chicago mercantile, weather derivatives, aluminium and barium in huge quantities in places were there was non as short a time ago as five years ago. Ever wondered why aeroplane Condensation trails seem to last forever while you remember them gone in 5-15 minutes?

    Then these two films are for you?

    What in the world are they spraying?

    Why in the world are they spraying?

    • Murray Olsen 8.1

      Ev, I’ll think about taking chemtrails seriously once someone gets some samples and analyses them. Until then, I can’t see any difference from the condensation trails that people have been seeing since WW2.

      • travellerev 8.1.1

        M,
        Did you watch the Video’s? Plenty of tests done. I can assure you that as someone who lived five minutes from the biggest airport in Europe with planes landing and leaving every three minutes all my life I never saw trails staying for hours and I lived in a flat country with lots of sky and contrails when I went plane spotting with my dad once in a while.
        We’ve had satellites and space stations since forever and it took them until June 2012 to show us this.

        But by all means M don’t believe anything until proven to your satisfaction as the Buddha says.

        • Murray Olsen 8.1.1.1

          If tests have been done, where are the results?
          I can’t see how it would be difficult for even an enthusiastic amateur to get atmospheric samples from an area that had supposed chemtrails. It’s probably possible with a balloon. Getting them with an aircraft would require more of an investment, but wouldn’t be impossible. It’s then pretty easy to test stuff to see what chemicals might be in it. Any undergraduate chemistry lab will have a mass spectrometer or something similar.
          I’m an open minded scientist and don’t accept anything as fact until the numbers are in. Anecdotal evidence is certainly not enough. There’s also the small problem that I know aircraft engineers and pilots and they have never seen any equipment aboard aircraft that would be needed to spray this stuff all over the place.

          • Colonial Viper 8.1.1.1.1

            I’m an open minded scientist and don’t accept anything as fact until the numbers are in.

            What a small world you live in

            There’s also the small problem that I know aircraft engineers and pilots and they have never seen any equipment aboard aircraft that would be needed to spray this stuff all over the place.

            They probably don’t work for the right organisations, and they probably don’t have sufficient clearance. BTW think about it for a second Mr Scientist. At that altitude there is no need for equipment to “spray this stuff all over the place”. Adequate dispersal would only require that droplets of a specific size were released. A few hundred dollars worth of equipment, in other words.

            • Murray Olsen 8.1.1.1.1.1

              I’m happy in my small world, thanks. At least it’s real, as well as being 15 billion light years across.
              What are the “right organisations”? How do they get their tentacles into so many aircraft run by so many different operators and no hard information gets out? What is the altitude? What is the specific size of the droplets? What would the equipment consist of?

              • Draco T Bastard

                What is the point of spraying them across the Mid Atlantic?

                Really, chem-trails has got to be the stupidest conspiracy theory that I’ve ever heard of.

              • Colonial Viper

                At least it’s real, as well as being 15 billion light years across.

                Do you even know if a “light year” is the same distance across that entire distance???

                What are the “right organisations”? How do they get their tentacles into so many aircraft run by so many different operators and no hard information gets out? What is the altitude? What is the specific size of the droplets? What would the equipment consist of?

                Seriously, how would I know? FYI I also don’t have the ‘right clearance’. Please come up with a longer list of inane questions, it doesn’t prove anything.

                • Murray Olsen

                  No, I don’t know if the physical constants are invariant in time, if that’s what you mean. There are some theories that they may not be, but there’s no compelling evidence yet.
                  If I’ve asked questions about statements you’ve made, how is it that the questions are inane?
                  You’re the one who seems to be claiming that these chemtrails are real, so any proof is up to you. I’m not trying to prove anything.
                  In fact, now that I’ve thought about it a bit, the composition of these things can most probably be determined from the ground, yet all we get are photos. I wonder why that is?

                  • Colonial Viper

                    In fact, now that I’ve thought about it a bit, the composition of these things can most probably be determined from the ground,

                    Really, Mr Scientist? Do propose your method of investigation.

                    • Murray Olsen

                      Nope. I’ll disclose the results if and when it’s done. From your tone, you have no interest in doing it, nor the knowledge to do it. In fact, you’re just another bloody troll.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      LOL so you have no idea other than to pretend you’ve got it all worked out??? And what’s my “tone” got to do with why you can’t explain the process you have in mind lolz

                  • Testing Mountain slope snow or its run off streams which should be pristine and have many thousands of times the amount of Aluminium particles above what is considered healthy and which never had those amounts previously should be considered as something of a give away Murray.

                    These shocking results led to additional testing of Lake Shasta with samples from the Pit River arm tributary that tested over 4,610 times the maximum contamination level of aluminum allowed in drinking water in the state of California.

                    Also, peer reviewed scientific studies conclude that bio-available aluminum, now found in huge quantities in rain world-wide, is very harmful to flora and thus the eco-system. Ironically, these are the same substances the scientists are considering implementing in the various potential “future” aerosol spraying campaigns that were being discussed at the meeting.

                    Cloud seeding is now done in 24 countries. Bill Gates wants to chuck tons of sulphur and other chemicals in the atmosphere. Bill Gates loves Monsanto too which by the way is patenting a corn resistant to high levels of Aluminium funny enough.

                    If this company can do it so can others. If cloud seeding is already part of the economic system of many countries than we don’t have to prove anything. It is accepted practice.

                    The discussion here is not: Are humans interfering with the global ecosystem via weather modification? They are.
                    The discussion is: How much are humans interfering with the Global ecosystem and is weather modification done in order to manipulate socio-economic situations.

                    Here is a link to an official European parliament document (1995) discussing the weaponisation of weather modification via cloud seeding and HAARP (High frequency Active Auroral Research Program)

                    It seems to me that if the ruling elite of an entire continent 12 years ago worried about the implications of weaponised weather modifications it behoves us to at least investigate strange weather occurrences and especially the “Why in the world are they spraying” Video gives some serious food for thought. 

        • Draco T Bastard 8.1.1.2

          all my life I never saw trails staying for hours

          I did. All it requires is still air. Throw in lots of aircraft all going the same way and you’ll get those satellite pictures.

          • TheContrarian 8.1.1.2.1

            Trails that hang around for hours have been recorded since the earliest days of jet propulsion.

          • travellerev 8.1.1.2.2

            Murray, In all our contacts so far I have never been anything other than polite, respectful and prepared to give as much information I could while respecting your opinions yet it now appears you are prepared to diss me in a hurtful way and put me together with all kinds of nonsense such as the “Lizard people” etc.
            Not cool.

            I “like” all kinds of information and will on occasion listen to Alex Jones but I also listen to Max Keiser, Richard Gage and Architects and Engineers for 9/11 truth and others and what I have in common with all of them is that all we want is a new and independent investigation into the events of 9/11 and with 6 of the 9/11 commissioners saying they have not been told the truth by the US air force and many of the “Witnesses” who did not need to be under oath while the survivors and family members saying 70% of their questions have not been answered that is not unreasonable.
            I put up the chem trail video’s because they raise questions and I think that it is important we get answers to those questions.
            With your daughter training in the NZ army as a medic and perhaps at risk of being send into one the next conflicts John Key seems so keen on helping the US and NATO out with I would think you too would be keen to know that those wars conflicts are not started to make only a few stinking rich while sacrificing our children.

            I hope that you can get off the churlish and hurtful manner in which your are conducting yourself towards me and which I don’t deserve and get back to the reasonable man I met on facebook a while ago.

            We don’t have to agree on everything but a basic respect is not too much to ask for I hope.

            • Murray Olsen 8.1.1.2.2.1

              Ev, please leave my family out of this. I’ve known what wars are about since the late 1960s and my views haven’t changed.
              I have no desire to hurt you, all I asked is a link to the peer reviewed studies about chemtrails which you mentioned, rather than some talking heads video. Through my university, I have free access to a lot of peer reviewed scientific literature and want to check it out. I would do the same with any of my colleagues, and on any topic.

      • muzza 8.1.2

        Well Ev, what I can tell you in this..

        On May 6 about 2pm this year, I took film footage over central auckland of a plane, very high (35-40k feet) dumping a horizon to horizon (not con) trail.
        Of what I can’t tell you, but I also saw a plane yesterday over the same location, same height, heading in the same direction doing the same thing, (pics taken) yesterday September 3, around 1pm.
        There are no scheduled flights which have those bearings and timings etc, so commercial flights they most certainly are not!

        I fly planes, and have been a “plane spotter”, hence looking upwards for a very long time indeed, and I can tell you is that the sky has changed, the “cloud” formations have changed.

        If people can’t tell the difference between a condensation trail, and these (whatever they are) trails, then I feel very sad for what people will allow to be done to them, and it shows just how dumbed down they have become!

        When you spend over 25 years looking up, you notice these things, hell even an inbicille should be able to notice these things..

        • vto 8.1.2.1

          Muzza, how about trying to find out what the plane was? Surely NZ aviation authorities will have records …

          • Te Reo Putake 8.1.2.1.1

            VTO, we don’t need the aviation authorities, we’ve got Muzza:

            “There are no scheduled flights which have those bearings and timings etc, so commercial flights they most certainly are not!”

            Sadly, there isn’t any info in his report as to direction, but I’m picking it was John Key heading to Hawaii, leaving a trail of loser dust behind him.

          • muzza 8.1.2.1.2

            VTO – whats interesting is that while I was filming, I was tracking the planes I could see overhead coming (live) and on my laptop, and matching them against what had taken off/was due to land etc from various airports around NZ, and where the flights were heading – Thing is NZ does not have a commercial international airport North of Auckland, and a flight at almost 40K feet from the north, heading south, would not have taken off in NZ, and it also was not tranmitting its codes/flight computer details.

            The trail that it left was against a pristine clear sky (may 6), and was not a condensation (vapour) trail which would evapourate very quickly at a constant rate as the plane progresses on its path. The trail left by that plane on May 6, same as Sept 3, left a horizon to horizon trail, which lasted hours, expanded and formed into those strange whispy, sheet like shapes and lines, which people think are actually cloud formations. I filmed the dispersal/expansion, over a couple of hours at different stages after it was dumped, and despite seeing the results of these flights for years now, I did not think would see it happening, and its now been twice!

            What people want to make of it all is their own personal choice, and I do not have the answers or explanations, other than to say that what I have seen and filmed is not vapour (condensation) trails, and the remnants left in the skies over AKL are not clouds, by in large. Real clouds still look like real clouds, they are easy enough to spot, if only people bothered pay attention.

            • Murray Olsen 8.1.2.1.2.1

              How do you know this plane wasn’t transmitting its codes/flight computer details?

              • muzza

                By using different software which picks up flight details, map flight paths etc. Anyone can learn/understand what are/are not regular flight patterns Murray, and also what is/is not “normal” coming from the plane!

                AKL’s geographic location makes it very easy to learn commercial patterns, and flight paths.

                Spending many years of life in plans, flying planes, and watching planes, leads one to being somewhat understanding and appreciative of the “changes” going on in the sky!

                • Murray Olsen

                  OK, you’ve established to your satisfaction that they weren’t normally scheduled commercial flights. You presumably also have some way of detecting transmissions from aircraft and didn’t detect any at the appropriate frequencies for these ones. You saw trails which the planes left which were more persistent than anything else you’ve seen.
                  You might be happy to take the leap from this to a huge network of aircraft spraying stuff over the whole planet for the purposes of weather modification. I’m not quite ready to do that yet. If, instead of making youtube videos where people like Alex Jones and others make all sorts of claims, people actually got some samples and analysed them, I’d be more interested. With remote sensing laser spectroscopy you probably don’t even need to physically obtain samples. You’d think that if people were so concerned and so convinced of the clear and present dangers due to these “chemtrails”, some real analysis would have been done. Until it is, I see it as about as harmful as theories about lizard people, ancient Egyptians in Aotearoa, or Illuminati conspiracies against the world. It gets a lot of people talking without anyone taking any action.
                  I’ll be contacting a friend who does remote atmospheric laser spectroscopy to inform myself a bit more about making measurements. Scientific proof or conclusion depends on measurements and numbers, not on the number of videos that have been posted on youtube.

                  • muzza

                    You might be happy to take the leap from this to a huge network of aircraft spraying stuff over the whole planet for the purposes of weather modification. I’m not quite ready to do that yet.

                    Can’t recall saying anything of the sort Murray. I will say that they are NOT condensation trails!

                    If, instead of making youtube videos where people like Alex Jones and others make all sorts of claims, people actually got some samples and analysed them, I’d be more interested.

                    Who is Alex Jones, and why is he relevant?

                    With remote sensing laser spectroscopy you probably don’t even need to physically obtain samples. You’d think that if people were so concerned and so convinced of the clear and present dangers due to these “chemtrails”, some real analysis would have been done. Until it is, I see it as about as harmful as theories about lizard people, ancient Egyptians in Aotearoa, or Illuminati conspiracies against the world. It gets a lot of people talking without anyone taking any action.

                    What people should have Murray is the truth, but thats not the world we live in is it, and what I see as more dangerous, are those who can’t/won’t accept this is how the world works, as it condems all of us to living in what is a very sick environment.
                    Question – Why is it more dangerous for people to ask questions or be suspicious, than those who do not ask questions?

                    I do agree with you that taking the wind out of sails is a real problem, I have mentioned it here many times.

                    I’ll be contacting a friend who does remote atmospheric laser spectroscopy to inform myself a bit more about making measurements. Scientific proof or conclusion depends on measurements and numbers, not on the number of videos that have been posted on youtube

                    That would be very good Murray, if you can post some details on what/how etc. While is great to have the measurements and numbers, even better if you can get them yourself.
                    I would also say that it is unwise to underestimate the amount of “bad data” which permeates from what people might refer to as “official sources”.

                    In this instance, Im stating what I personally saw with my own eyes, you tube has nothing to do with anything, but like the reference to lizard people, you are using as a way to sweep aside, which is unwise!

                    • Murray Olsen

                      Fair enough. I’m painting with a broad brush, which is unfair to you. Anyway:
                      1. Alex Jones is an American talk show host who specialises in conspiracies. Ev seems to like his stuff.
                      2. I am asking questions. I’m asking them in a way that can be answered and is designed to get at the “truth”. I agree that people who just accept everything, whether it comes from the government or the internet, are dangerous.
                      3. I don’t have the equipment or the experimental expertise to make these measurements myself. I know people who do, so I’ll ask them about it.
                      4. I’m not sweeping anything aside here. I think the whole business about chemtrails is most likely a load of rubbish, but I’m prepared to do what I can to check it out as far as I can. I won’t even bother checking the lizard people stuff.

                    • muzza

                      Murray that all sounds sensible, and if you could keep any details from those you know who do have the knowledge & skills, that would be great.

                      VTO – Yes the default position when dealing with “authority”, should always be suspicion, which is terrible, but the people have allowed it to become that way, by “trusting & wishing” etc…

                      Its a long way back from here, that is for certain.

                  • vto

                    My 2c says that authority has blown its credibility. It is not to be trusted.

                    So when something odd pops up like these strange trails the default position must therefore be to disbelieve what the authorities say, and to most certainly disbelieve anybody who dismisses every theory as “just another conspiracy” – they are the most unreliable and generally the most ignorant of all.

                    The default position must be suspicion. Anybody who trusts authority is a fool.

        • travellerev 8.1.2.2

          Muzza,
          I paid the whole Chem trail issue not a lot of attention until I saw four parallel trails and a plane dumping another one right while I was watching totally parallel to the other four. I tried to make a photo but my camera wasn’t high res enough. Recently I bought a camera at 14 mega pic and now I can make photo’s of what seems to have become a regular feature in my back yard.
           

  8. Carol 9

    This is about social inclusion, and access to the educational, social, liesure and communicative resources that enable full participation in society, regardless of wealth/income:

    http://www.voxy.co.nz/politics/bill-shelves-library-charges-fenton/5/133279

    Thursday, 30 August, 2012 – 15:23

    Keeping books, DVDs, music and internet use free of charge at public libraries is the aim of Labour MP Darien Fenton’s Member’s Bill drawn from the ballot today.

    “Making sure our public libraries are as accessible as possible is a really important principle,” Darien Fenton said. “Libraries are an essential public service.

    “At the moment local authorities are only obliged to ensure people can join their library free of charge. But over time we have seen a growth of user charges for best sellers, DVDs and multimedia resources.

    “Libraries shouldn’t be used to raise council revenue,” Darien Fenton said.

    “If we want an economy based on knowledge and innovation we need to break down barriers wherever we see them.

    “The Local Government (Public Libraries) Amendment Bill is in line with UNESCO Guidelines on Libraries and responds to calls from groups such as the Library and Information Association of New Zealand Aotearoa (LIANZA) to have such free public library services enshrined in law.

    • millsy 9.1

      I have no issue with paying a small charge for things like CD’s and DVD’s from the library (though I think DVD content should be largely documentaries and educational, not Jennifer Anniston rom-coms and Bruce Willis action movies), but books must remain free.

      There should be central government fund for these sorts of amenites so councils cannot be tempted to cut these sorts of services and blame it on hard times.

  9. fnjckg 10

    Vagina: A Biography by Naomi Wolf. (wow!) -The Guardian
    and
    Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini slams Catholic Church from the grave.-news.sky.com
    (the grave did not hold him)

  10. captain hook 11

    thjey are spraying because they are infantilised and they think that they are omnipotent because their spray lasts forever.
    and their little weenies are just the same size as everyone elses.
    and if they cant control the world then they will poison it for everyone else.

  11. Tony Molloy needs some support here from decent New Zealanders who do believe in the basic principles of ‘natural justice’ and the ‘rule of law’?

    http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/outraged-finlayson-says-judge-critic-tony-molloy-should-quit-qc-rank#comment-550074

    In my considered opinion it is the ‘fitness for duty’ of the Attorney-General, Chris Finlayson, that should be questioned?

    What a disgraceful personal attack on Tony Molloy QC!

    How is this disgraceful personal attack on Tony Molloy QC, not an absolute abuse of power by the ‘highest acting lawyer in the land’?

    No doubt this outspokeness by a man of Tony Molloy’s callibre, ‘blowing the whistle’ against NZ judicial structural incompetence, would be arguably most ‘vexatious’ for an Attorney-General who is attempting to ‘defend the indefensible’ – but it doesn’t mean that what is being said is not the TRUTH and HONEST OPINION?

    New Zealand – ‘perceived’ to be the ‘least corrupt country in the world’ – with our ‘out-of-control’ judiciary – where our NZ Judges have no enforceable ‘Code of Conduct’; no Register of Percuniary Interests and where court proceedings are regularly not recorded?

    Heaven help us.

    Good on you Tony Molloy!

    Keep up the GREAT work.

    Penny Bright
    ‘Anti-corruption campaigner’

    http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com

  12. David H 13

    Just as an aside I am sitting waiting for WINZ to answer the phone, waiting, waiting. I am sure they are taking way longer than they used to. And I refuse to use their ‘online system’ as I don’t trust the security of their systems. Damn they answered after on 33.42 mins.

    They are way slower and is it just me or is it across all departments..

  13. OPPOSED TO ASSET SALES AND THE PRIVATISATION OF OUR STATE-OWNED ELECTRICITY COMPANIES?

    SWITCH OFF MERCURY ENERGY PROTEST TODAY:

    Monday 3 September 2012

    Outside Mercury Energy Office
    602 Great South Rd, Greenlane

    4 – 5.30pm

    WE WANT 100,000 MERCURY ENERGY CUSTOMERS TO SWITCH OFF MERCURY ENERGY

    (100% owned by Mighty River Power), in order to throw a HUGE spanner into this National/ACT Government’s privatisation agenda!

    We call on all those who have marched down the street and signed the petition against asset sales to now take the action which CANNOT be ignored – thousands of Mercury Energy customers leaving in droves, which will cause the profits of parent company Mighty River Power (MRP) to fall – thus making Mighty River Power a most unattractive investment.

    There is a precedent for this.

    In 2008, in a time of financial downturn, (already privatised) Contact Energy doubled their directors’ fees and increased their prices 12%.

    In six months, 40,000 customers left Contact Energy, whose profits were halved.

    IT’S PEOPLE POWER TIME!

    To whom do you ‘switch’?

    Meredian Energy Ph: 0800 496 496 http://www.meridianenergy.co.nz

    Genesis Energy Ph: 0800 496 496 http://www.genesisenergy.co.nz

    Powershop Ph: 0800 496 496 http://www.powershop.co.nz

    Energy On Line Ph: 0800 496 496 http://www.energyonline.co.nz

    (Contact Energy, Empower and Trustpower are already privatised – so – if you’re opposed to privatisation, don’t switch to them! 🙂

    ________________________________________________________________________

    Penny Bright

    ‘Anti-privatisation / Anti-corruption campaigner’

    http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com

    [lprent: a bit less of the shouting capitals please. I have toned it down quite a bit for everyone else’s viewing pleasure.

    I also can’t see how the comment was in the post that you put it in. Moved it to OpenMike. As you are aware, I don’t do such generous efforts too often before I get bored with it and remove the need to do it. ]

  14. http://www.3news.co.nz/Mighty-Rivers-profit-slumps-by-59m/tabid/1607/articleID/267082/Default.aspx

    Is SHONKY John Key going to allow the sale of our precious electricity assets to his investor mates at bargain-basement prices?

    How FISCALLY responsible is THAT?

    Whose interests is this former Wall St banker / former Head of (dodgy) Derivatives for Merrill Lynch /current shareholder in the Bank of America / NZ Prime Minister John Key serving?

    NZ ‘mums and dads’?

    Yeah right.

    If the Government wants to save money – rather than selling off essential public service assets – how about CUTTING OUT THE CONSULTANTS and PRIVATE CONTRACTORS?

    How many BILLION$ could be saved by returning back to ‘in-house’ provision all these services that were privatised under the ‘Rogernomic$’ reforms?

    Serving whose interests?

    Penny Bright

    ‘Anti-privatisation / Anti-corruption campaigner’

    http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com

    http://www.stopthesupercity.org.nz

    [lprent: Moved another one for being off-topic. Getting irritated. ]

  15. joe90 16

    A movie about the winners: The Act of Killing.

    Wikipedia synopsis

    When the government of Indonesia was overthrown by the military in 1965, Anwar and his friends were promoted from small-time gangsters who sold movie theatre tickets on the black market to death squad leaders. They helped the army kill more than one million alleged communists, ethnic Chinese, and intellectuals in less than a year. As the executioner for the most notorious death squad in his city, Anwar himself killed hundreds of people with his own hands.

    Today, Anwar is revered as a founding father of a right-wing paramilitary organization that grew out of the death squads. The organization is so powerful that its leaders include government ministers, and they are happy to boast about everything from corruption and election rigging to acts of genocide

    • Morrissey 16.1

      Much of this killing was financed, coordinated and diplomatically supported by the United States and its “allies”—including New Zealand.

      • Murray Olsen 16.1.1

        True, Morrissey, and when the killing in East Timor was at its height, Helen Clark was less than interested. Maree Leadbeater and others brought it up any number of times. Labour turned against it at the same time Clinton did. I believe we were training the death squad military most of the way through the occupation. Australia continues to plunder Timorese oil and gas reserves, using a very strange maritime boundary drawn up with the agreement of the Indonesian murderers.

        • Carol 16.1.1.1

          Was Clark PM at that time? It must have been just after she was elected? I was in Aussie when the militias in East Timor went on the rampage. There was a student in one of my classes who was devastated because, for a month or two after the start of the escalation of violence he thought all his family had been killed – he had lost contact with them. Most did eventually turn up in Jakarta.

          But I remember the student was very angry at the lack of/slow and inadequate response from the Aussie government. I think, as I recall, the UN also were slow to react.

          • Morrissey 16.1.1.1.1

            ….as I recall, the UN also were slow to react.

            That was because the United States was still acting as guarantor for Indonesia, no matter what it did. At the United Nations, the U.S.A. weighed in with full diplomatic support for Suharto’s regime. It did the same thing for apartheid South Africa, Saddam Hussein’s Iraq, Egypt, Israel, the Marcos regime in the Philippines, and Pinochet’s Chile.

            And then there is the matter of their support for the Khmer Rouge, long after that regime’s horrific crimes had been exposed to the world. Our own government fell obediently into line on that, as well….

            http://www.nzjh.auckland.ac.nz/docs/1999/NZJH_33_2_05.pdf

  16. The lack of resourcing for rural roads is having a negative impact on our economy. http://localbodies-bsprout.blogspot.co.nz/2012/09/rons-wreck-rural-roads.html

  17. tc 18

    Across the ditch Fairfax is continuing it’s hollowing out…from Crikey.com.au, sorry but it’s a subscriber service so a link wouldn’t work.

    ‘Fairfax bean counters have been stunned by the number of long-term employees — many with more than 25 years’ service — who applied for redundancy. About 40 staffers at the SMH alone are understood to be leaving with more than a full year’s pay. Those who know the company well say they’d be shocked if the final redundancy bill isn’t more than the $208 million originally anticipated ($109,400 per employee).’

    “There are a lot of non-commercial decisions being made,” said one surprised business journalist. “There are a lot of people on the verge of retirement who are getting an enormous amount of money to go 
 It’s as though they want to get rid of anyone who might question the brave new world.”

    That’s sydney, here’s melbourne :
    ‘The Hun redundos have so far attracted little attention because the head honchos there have refused to put a final figure on the amount who’ll go…..It’s the biggest loss of journalistic heft at the high-selling tabloid since it merged with The Herald in 1990.

    long live the standard.

  18. Carol 20

    NZ’s suicide rates remain steady, and continue to be amongst the worst internationally. Of significance is the fact that young men (teenagers), Maori and the unemployed are over-represented in the suicide stats, and suicide from those in these groups have increased:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/7603221/Boy-aged-under-ten-committed-suicide-stats-reveal

    Chief coroner Judge Neil MacLean released the annual suicide statistics today, which cover the period from July 2011 to June 2012

    10 years old… too sad. NZ/we really have to start taking more care of its/our children.

  19. Logie97 21

    NACT education policy made by surfing the NET.

    http://uk.news.yahoo.com/more-free-schools-waste-public-money-020010506.html
    – makes you wonder if they have any original ideas of their own.

  20. Vicky32 22

    Damn they answered after on 33.42 mins.

    Yes, it is much longer than it used to be (however when I phoned last week to ‘declare earnings’ they were quicker! I suppose I called at the right time (4.30 pm)

     

  21. gobsmacked 23

    Somebody at TVNZ’s Close-Up has a sense of humour.

    First item – Gerry Brownlee saying we should pour public money into building public assets, regardless of any economic cost/benefits.

    Second item – John Key saying we should sell public assets.

    But the first one is a sports stadium, so that’s OK.

    • Carol 23.1

      Yeah, sounds a bout right…. like everyone uses sports stadiums….. not so many people using electricity…..?

  22. North 24

    Wonderful to see Sharples publicly confirming his membership of the National Party…….and signing up for first Maori High Commissioner in London or ambassador in Washington. Choice……stay at the table, you irrelevant man.

  23. Draco T Bastard 25

    So, how close did that Washington Declaration make us with the US?

    Secretary Clinton and I discussed the broad range of issues in the Asia Pacific region as we look towards the APEC summit in Russia in around 10 days time. New Zealand warmly supports the United States rebalancing towards the Asia Pacific, and we welcome the opportunity to cooperate with the U.S. in the next conflicts.

    Apparently a hell of a lot closer than we were told. Our PM is already promising our soldiers in the next round of US wars.

  24. Draco T Bastard 26

    And a good breakdown of the reasoning behind the RoNS over at Auckland Transport Blog:

    It seems clear from the minister’s mention of the Harbour Bridge that the whole theoretical underpinning of this programme rests on a series of assumptions that are misplaced and dated. The RoNS look like a classic case of the general fighting the previous battle, assuming all conditions from that last campaign still hold, but being doomed to fail because he doesn’t see how the world has moved on. In this case it is necessary to believe that road is always the best mode, that sprawl will continue for ever, and that investing aggressively in both will always provide economic growth. The facts on the ground say otherwise.

    And there is another way that the Minister is mistaken about this precedent; the success of the AHB was in fact all about the city. That land had been there along, what the bridge did was make it instantly accessible to the city. The city is the true transformation enabler. This government and its supporters remain wilfully in denial about the economic force that are cities in general and New Zealand’s only city of scale in particular. Their insistence that wealth only comes from heavy lifting, preferably by a truck, and never from innovation and social interaction makes them dangerously reckless with our taxes.

    Which sums it up pretty well – this government is living in the past and refusing to see both the now and the future.

  25. captain hook 27

    nearly fell off the floor.
    dompost this am.
    key gets to press the flesh with Vlad the Impaler but no hi fives with Barack Obama.
    aint life strange?

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