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Open mike 04/06/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, June 4th, 2019 - 169 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

169 comments on “Open mike 04/06/2019 ”

  1. James 1

    george Galloway sacked For anti-Semitic tweet


    good start to the day

    • Sam 1.1

      That's classic. How many times has Galloway got the fired before. It must be like Israel lobby: 3

      Galloway: 2, with a quarter left on the clock.

    • Incognito 1.2

      Whatever floats your boat …

    • Professor Longhair 1.3

      Criticising Israel is not anti-Semitic.

      • vto 1.3.1

        Really Professor Longhair?

        There are many subjects, which if critical of lead to instant cries of anti-this, racist-that, phobic-the-other.

        Israel and their worldwide lobbies are one of the leading cry babies in this regard… they don't handle criticism. They actively stop criticism. Little precious things they are

        • Professor Longhair

          Vicious stompers on democracy and human rights they are.

          • vto

            Agree… operating the world's largest prison a.k.a. Gaza. How is this not a repeat of what they themselves suffered in 1930's Germany?

            edit: is this criticism, or anti-semitism, this question?

            • vto

              I am seriously thinking that in this day and age any such questions should be avoided, lest the authorities see it and place one on some watch list. Very seriously. The US asks for your personal political views when applying for visas now.

              This should be frightening. We are already bowed in fear of saying things that are 'not approved'.

              And we are already at war. All over the frikkin' place.

              In the future, with hindsight, how will the period 2015-2020 be viewed? The same as we now view 1930's Europe???

              My guess is yes, without doubt.

              What’s Jacinda doing about this?

              • aj

                The US asks for your personal political views when applying for visas now.


                • vto

                  social media accounts required, yes

                  • aj

                    You mean they ask for your Twitter and Facebook accounts, etc? in the Land of the Free?

                    Are you sure we are not talking about China, Russia? /sarc

    • Adrian Thornton 1.4

      Here is a bit of classic Galloway…


      The really annoying host is like the UK version of Kim Hill,

    • McFlock 2.1

      Good article. ISTR a US city (Salt Lake City?) implemented a similar plan, also with good results.

    • greywarshark 2.2

      From Francesca’s above link re Helsinki at #2. “We had to get rid of the night shelters and short-term hostels we still had back then. They had a very long history in Finland, and everyone could see they were not getting people out of homelessness. We decided to reverse the assumptions.”…

      “We decided to make the housing unconditional,” says Kaakinen. “To say, look, you don’t need to solve your problems before you get a home. Instead, a home should be the secure foundation that makes it easier to solve your problems.”

      (The George Constanza Gambit!)

      …But Housing First is not just about housing. “Services have been crucial,” says Helsinki’s mayor, Jan Vapaavuori, who was housing minister when the original scheme was launched. “Many long-term homeless people have addictions, mental health issues, medical conditions that need ongoing care. The support has to be there.”…

      Housing First costs money, of course: Finland has spent €250m creating new homes and hiring 300 extra support workers. But a recent study showed the savings in emergency healthcare, social services and the justice system totalled as much as €15,000 a year for every homeless person in properly supported housing…

      And there, the Finnish capital is fortunate. Helsinki owns 60,000 social housing units; one in seven residents live in city-owned housing. It also owns 70% of the land within the city limits, runs its own construction company, and has a current target of building 7,000 more new homes – of all categories – a year.

      In each new district, the city maintains a strict housing mix to limit social segregation: 25% social housing, 30% subsidised purchase, and 45% private sector. Helsinki also insists on no visible external differences between private and public housing stock, and sets no maximum income ceiling on its social housing tenants.

      Very interesting. And to others who have dissed The Guardian because of its stand against Jeremy Corbyn I think it is a very worthwhile newspaper with a flaw. Perhaps you should present your arguments against the paper's stand in a numbered list, refined down from broad accusations down to well-founded argument that is sure to win their attention if not their agreement. Let's bring them into line with good thinking.

      Also Salt Lake City Subsidised Housing
      The Housing Authority of the County of Salt Lake is pleased to offer four different quality affordable housing programs to low-income and no-income individuals and families: Section 8, Low Income Public Housing, Affordable Housing, and Supportive Housing Programs.

  2. reason 3

    The lazy greed and looting goes on …. https://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/opinion/69497644/

    When National were in Govt, at the height of their corrupt arrogance .. non-enforcement for non compliance of regulations became their uber style of rule,…. but only for the rich, corrupt and connected …

    The Public address blog had a very good example of this https://publicaddress.net/envirologue/swamp-monsters-the-looting-of-northlands/

    Northland is one of the most deprived and neglected areas of New Zealand …. it was being plundered … in a destructive and more often than not in an illegal way.

    Documents obtained under the Official Information Act by the NEPS are claimed to show that in fact, mandatory information was missing from some 80 per cent of MPI intention-to-export notices processed in 2013. "

    In either case we might wonder why, when Northland is suffering deprivation and economic stagnation, Maraetai Drive millionaires are allowed to strip the province of its natural resources, tear up its wild places and reap outrageous profits "

    That one of the prominent speculators in this grey market in taonga happens to be David Wong-Tung, husband of National MP Judith Collins, should rightly raise eyebrows, along with suspicions that her involvement places the Government in an awkward spot – again. Wong-Tung is a director in Kauri Ruakaka Ltd, formerly Oravida Kauri, which has stockpiled an estimated 80,000 tonnes of logs.

    Here's a google earth piture from 2015 of the dodgy Kauri stockpile that Judiths hubby and the Oravida octopus had ripped from Northlands wetlands …. one valuation in the Public address thread had the Kauri worth $ 400 Million


    Then take a look at the latest google earth pic …. With export of these logs curtailed, due to belated enforcement of regulations …is the vastly grown robbers Kauri pile worth $1 Billion dollars now ?


    If the google earth link does not work, enter the co-ordinates

    35°52'07.9"S 174°27'52.5"E … into the search bar on the google-earth page.



  3. The Chairman 4

    The political cost of backing Grant has now led to questions being sought on Jacinda's role.


    • WeTheBleeple 4.1

      Who gives a toss. Go find some other drivel to repeat.

      • The Chairman 4.1.1

        Who gives a toss

        The left, the right and some in between. I see there is a thread on it (snowflakes). It's Jacinda they are now gunning for.

        Grant is looking arrogant at the least, reflecting badly on his leader.

        • WeTheBleeple

          No just silly shit stirring media, silly shit stirring politicians, and overly concerned bloggers care a toss.

          To the rest of us, it's simply more tossing.

          You are a total fraud. But I'm sure other readers have cottoned to that long ago.

          • marty mars

            c.hairman is a concerned little rwnj. Most people here treat him like the creep he is – and now his side eye has spotted our Prime Minister – this won't end well, for him.

        • Psycho Milt

          For a supposed leftist you peddle a surprising number of right-wing talking points. I wonder why that is?

          Also: unless you're their personal friends, it's Robertson and Ardern, not Grant and Jacinda. They're the Finance Minister and Prime Minister, not your mates.

        • McFlock

          lol so everyone cares, but the only "questions" you repeat come from the nats.

          • The Chairman


            Get it right. As you well know, I was forewarning about the political cost (of Jacinda backing Grant) last week.

            • McFlock

              lols the nats inventing something pointless to whinge about isn't a political cost. It's business as usual.

              Next you'll be saying "told you so" when Hosking parrots the same talking point.

              Here's how it works: something happens, you whinge about it, national make shit up about it, media punters wank about the nat invention, you talk about how you predicted the scandal.

              But the thing is that it doesn't matter what the something that happened was. Ardern could walk across Cook Strait, you'd call it a major political problem, national will point out that she didn't use the ferry despite her professed support for NZ businesses, Hosks will turn it into a rant against cycleways, and you'd then ejaculate a "told you so".

              Find something real to whinge about.

              • Sam

                This is like that time the Labour Party President bullshited about some dumb shit only the door is still wide open for Roberston to have the treasury secretary's resignation on his desk by tonight.

                • McFlock

                  Except he already has it. Bring forward the date it takes effect is simply more ammo for the nats.

                  • Sam

                    Who is hurting who exactly. Simon is taking the piss, he spent all his political capital on Jamie Lee Ross and getting a couple list places for a donor. That was me being sarcastic. Robertson has to begin acting like he is in charge of the treasury. For to long those wonks have been interfering in the affairs of the state and going against GCSB recommendations to call in police to investigate is a corrupt practice. The Secretary tried to cover his ass. He's meant to be the smartest guy in the room, not the dumbest. It's either the treasury secretary (forgot how to spell his name) or Robertson. If this budget had of been a wellbeing budget, Y'know? Things may have been different. But it's not.

                    • Sacha

                      "going against GCSB recommendations to call in police"

                      Naturally you have a link to back up that claim..

                    • Sam

                      I meant to say that GCSB agents told treasury secretary it wasn't a hack. Anyone with half a brain could see treasury was using Google cache.

                    • Professor Longhair

                      "Anyone with half a brain could see…"

                      Careful, Sam: look who you're talking to.

                    • McFlock

                      Nah they'd be no different. Let it slowly burn out the time. Hell, by the time the investigation comes back, even if it fully says the nat version, the dude could well be gone by then anyway. From a purely political perspective, there's no need to waste effort on it. From an organisational perspective, the guy who apparently fucked up is gone.

                      And if they determine the search indexing security hole existed before the last nat budget, Bridges looks like even more of a dick than he already does.

                    • I meant to say that GCSB agents told treasury secretary it wasn't a hack.

                      Link needed for that one too.

                    • Sam

                      nah not that treasury wonk. How hard is it really to give em a thorough clean out? Whaaaaaaat. What eh? Is Robertson on recruit difficulty is something.

                    • McFlock

                      Sam, can I suggest that you make the subjects of your sentences and comments a bit more clear?

                      At best guess, it seems you are indicating that the Treasury web development team should be fired? That depends entirely on whether they fulfilled the agreed terms of the development request. If they did, then the people who signed off on the request are in the gun. Unless it was a systemic issue that was not the result of any individual decision or omission, in which case the project managers are the ones to blame.

                      This is why there is an investigation, and the priority should be prevention of future errors rather than recrimination.

                    • Sam

                      Suggest away muh boi, suggest a way.

                      To be perfectly clear I'd make all them treasury wonks reapply for there jobs by writing essays. Any of them praise SOE sales, deregulation, welfare reform, what else? Asset speculation. Any of them praise neoliberalism wouldn't be offered work from me. Okay?

                    • McFlock

                      And then the personal grievance expenditure goes through the roof. They might be Treasury wonks, but they're also workers. In a strong union lol

                    • Sam

                      Y'know revolutionising religious financial philosophy is very difficult to do when bonuses are not the prime motivating factor, Y'know? These guys are no friend of left wing politics you know that don't you, don't you?

                      These guys literally believe there own bullshit. They are meant to be men of the world, all knowing. But they lied anyway and didn't have too. This is how they've always operated.

                      We have a well being budget architiure. The rules of the game has changed. The quicker Roberston begins clearing these mushrooms out the better because old habits die hard.

                      Y'know you're just not going to get any sympathy out of me for treasury, McFlock (it's still gets me).

                    • Sacha

                      "going against GCSB recommendations to call in police to investigate"

                      You are just lying there. The advice to Treasury from the national cybersecurity team was that the actions against the website did not fall within their remit, so to take it to the Police who could establish any illegality. That has been reported since the beginning.

                      What happens next is another matter.

                    • Sam

                      Why do you even bother commenting. Try and follow the the piece of string all the way to the end. The cops chucked out the report as well. The was no click yes to say you've read the privacy agreement before accessing Google cache for fucks sake. Y'know?

                    • McFlock

                      Sympathy is one thing. I suspect the political outrage over a ballooning constructive dismissal bill would be worse than simply following due process.

                    • Sam

                      Meh. Think I read somewhere on pundant that the state services commissions has responsibility for hiring and firing the Treasury Secretary and that it would be an employment issue of the Prime Minister or Finance minister demanded a resignation. Then it went on to say the Helen Clark would have had his resignation on her desk anyway.

                      If I was advising Roberston, the word on the street is stand the Secretary down pending the results of the investigation because tbh I just want utu for neoliberalism and I'd be willing to burn the whole thing to the ground, ya feel me ?

                    • McFlock

                      Yes. Which is why you shouldn't be allowed within a light year of giving policy, political, or economic advice to anyone in power. The breathtaking incompetence that resulted would put a search cache oversight to shame.

                    • Sam

                      And you may remember McFlock. Next on my wellbeing policy perscription would be to give every one at WINZ and the rest of MSD a UBI so I could check how dedicated they all are to the pursuit of humanities studies.

                    • McFlock

                      You do realise that means cutting the pay of social workers?

                      Good luck with selling that policy.

                    • Sam

                      The only reason the government would implement a UBI is if the economy couldn't produce enough payed employment. I get that, do you?

                    • McFlock

                      Nope. That's why the unemployment benefit was introduced.

                      The only reasons to introduce a UBI are to eliminate cracks in who gets appropriate income support, and to reduce the administrative costs of income support.

                      Choosing to pay MSD employees a UBI isn't actually "universal", but if it were universally applied within MSD then that would involve a pay cut for highly specialised frontline staff as well as bureaucratic support staff. Or are you going to set the MSD "UBI" at a rate equivalent to the current salary for an experienced social worker? Or even negotiators for multimillion dollar facility contracts to be paid fuckall? Because that's a way to have almost all experienced staff in most aspects of the organisation go either overseas or into the private sector.

                    • Sam

                      I must say McFlock (😌) that is the first Iv ever come across a concept like minimum wage laws creating jobs. I may aswell put my dog into payed work.

                    • McFlock

                      Once again, the connection between your comment and the previous thread seems highly tangential.

    • How lucky Labour is to have someone so concerned about them.

    • Rapunzel 4.3

      What rubbish, perhaps when they start delivering the outcomes on the inquiries they had underway more NZers might take them seriously again. They are desperately trying to maintain some momentum from being so "maligned" and that wore thin some time back.

    • Incognito 4.4

      I’m sure you would have handled it differently but that really is a moot point, isn’t it?

  4. francesca 5

    And so can this

    Apparently now the Swedes find no impediment to questioning Assange in the UK

    What is it now? the 4th round of questioning ?


    So we've got he said/she said a torn condom with no one's DNA,some txt messages…unless these have been "lost" and no one left on earth who hasn't heard of "Assange The Rapist"

    • johnm 5.1

      Just my opinion but the sex accusations are nothing more than the man-woman snafus that are inevitable in sex relations. They are frankly mad!!! I beginning to believe it's been a set up all along. How much has the CIA sent their way?

      The rape allegation against Julian Assange, explained

      The story of his asylum and arrest is about more than WikiLeaks.


      The whole affair is SICK!

      • Psycho Milt 5.1.1

        More rape apologia. If you think doing things to women without their consent is just an "inevitable snafu," you're a threat and should take a good look at yourself.

        • greywarshark

          Please JohnM

          Just give us the news about Julian Assange and what we can do to help him. Please listen to this – we have a treacle pit here about his sex life and You will achieve nothing good if you try and enter it. Those of us who are concerned about him would like good info. Let the protagonists get on with the cock fight on their own.

          Can we rely on you to just stay on task and keep us informed of his wellbeing please. Three pleases – is that enough? Cheers. Thanks for info so far. Just to reiterate what is the best thing to do – write (whom to and how), donate – same, anything else?

          • francesca

            Julian Assange

            Belmarsh prison address


            Honestly, Grey, if he is as stressed and incapacitated as the UN torture guy says, he may not be up to replying, but gestures of goodwill would be gratefully accepted I imagine

            • greywarshark

              Yes I made a note about the address but got stuck on the advice about sending paper and a UK stamped addressed envelope for reply. I think you are right and not to worry. He isn't going to feel like replying. But maybe a card, with something positive on it. I have got one of the WW2 ones that says about Keeping Calm and Carry On on or something. I don't think that's quite the thing either.

              I don't know about a card though, now I think further, the info that JohnM put up said no postcards. I don't understand that, because I reckon the authorities would censor mail anyway.

              By the way anyone else reading this and wondering, NZ Post have dropped the idea of providing a full postal service, which we all sort of know (someone this a.m. spoke about some government service being 'managed down'). So there isn't a way of sending a stamped self-addressed envelope, either by buying stamp coupons, or buying a stamped envelope – asked about both.

              And thanks francesca for further link.

          • francesca

            And the following site is useful for information and to donate


        • Adrian Thornton

          So Milt you are saying here that you actually really believe that the UK govt has spent seven years and millions of pounds on this over 2 alleged rape cases?

          You really are quite delusional, or maybe as others have pointed out something worse..wilfully ignorant?…one would have thought that if the UK govt was so interested in bringing rapists to justice that they would have used that man power and money pursuing the thousands of unsolved rape cases that remain open in their own country…

          …Thousands of rape cases remain unsolved

          THOUSANDS of unsolved rapes have left victims traumatised across the North East. Over the past 10 years more than 2,380 rapes reported to Northumbria Police and Durham Constabulary remain classified as undetected. Across Tyneside, Northumbria Police dealt with 2,874 reported rape offences with 945 classified as detected, meaning someone was charged to appear in court.

          But that leaves 1,929 victims, almost 70%, waiting to see justice.


          • marty mars

            you keep saying that line but it is silly – do you think the UK government is competent enough NOT to have done something fucked up like that?

            • francesca

              The Swedish record is worse , in 2017 less than 6% of rape cases ended in prosecution

              Not quite the upholder of women’s rights they pretend to be.

              • marty mars

                so you can imagine the UK govt spending and wasting time and money on this?

                Governments are shit, they do shit, they say shit and they shit on people innocent and guilty. That is the 101 starting position for any discussion not whether this or that particular govt is shittier than another – yes it is and so what.

          • Siobhan

            Equally interesting to claim this is about a rape case in light of "Amnesty International Sweden has the highest incidence of reported rapes in Europe but the lowest conviction rate".

            According to the report Time for Change: Justice for Rape Survivors in the Nordics, only 236 of the 5,236 rapes reported in Sweden in in 2017 led to a conviction, or just 4.5 percent.

            This compares to the 78 convictions for 1,504 reported rapes in Norway in 2016 (5 percent), 94 convictions for 890 reported rapes in Denmark (10 percent), and 209 convictions for 1,245 reported rapes in Finland (16 percent).

            It would seem that 'normally' Sweden isn't that focused or determined to get convictions on rape cases anyway. Gee..I wonder what makes this case different?

            (Unless of course you are 'foreign'…rape statistics in Sweden show that 58% of men convicted of rape and attempted rape over the past five years were born outside of the European Union: Southern Africans, Northern Africans, Arabs, Middle Easterns, and Afghans.)


            • Psycho Milt

              Gee..I wonder what makes this case different?

              The fact that it consists of a simple extradition request so an alleged rapist can be questioned. The subsequent expenditure of a lot of time and money (mostly by the UK) is down to Assange, not the Swedish prosecutor.

              • Siobhan

                "The subsequent expenditure of a lot of time and money (mostly by the UK) is down to Assange"…this is exactly why I addressed the comment to Adrian T. and generally do not comment on TS when the topic is Assange…your argument is ridiculous, and, quite frankly, offensive.

                The UK decided to spend vast amounts of money on this one accused rapist..meanwhile they choose to allow 1000's of UK rape accusations and rape prevention programs floundering.

                That's their choice..it is not 'down' to Assange.

                Unless, ofcourse, you are arguing that not spending money following up all those floundering UK rape cases is somehow 'down' to the choices and behaviour of those accused perpetrators. That somehow the accused is in control of the authorities decisions and priorities.

              • francesca

                No The Swedish court says different


                "The ruling by the Uppsala District Court does not mean a preliminary investigation in Sweden should be abandoned.

                It states Assange would not be extradited and could be questioned in Britain, where he is currently in prison."

                So it has been possible all along to question Assange in the UK .He was under house arrest for something like 18 months

                It was Sweden dragging the chain after all

                • francesca

                  The above comment in response to PM who asserts the difference is an extradition request to question an alleged rapist . No extradition necessary after all it seems Milt!

                  • Bit late now, isn't it? The cases were heard, the bail jumped, the seven years' worth of police monitoring of the embassy carried out and paid for, the 50 weeks' sentence for jumping bail passed and enacted. Unfortunately, the fact they've decided they don't need him extradited now doesn't change the past.

                    • McFlock

                      Seems to me it all comes down to the aftermath of the interview.

                      The prosecutors probably don't see how he can come up with anything that would prevent an arrest on the basis of evidence already in hand, so can't see a point to interviewing him if they can't arrest him and take him to trial ASAP, as is their process.

                      If that's the case, it seems the Swedish courts believe that he should still have the opportunity to pull the theoretically-possible but highly unrealistic exonerating evidence out of his arse before being extradited, rather than his during opportunity at the first interview, during the first extradition hearings, or any time in the last seven years.

                    • francesca

                      They never needed to extradite him, thats the point.
                      McFlock, there is no new evidence, all parties have been interviewed, all physical evidence in hand
                      Why have they not moved on with charging him after the several interviews he’s already given them, the statements from SW, the texts, and whatever physical evidence there is.The torn condom sulpplied by AA has no DNA, and is not useful for the SW complaint.
                      No new allegations have been made, no other woman has stepped up to add her complaints
                      He doesn’t have to pull evidence out of his arse as you so coarsely put it, they have to prove whatever charge they come up with , when ,and if , after 9 years they do

                    • McFlock

                      Why have they not moved on with charging him after [etc]

                      Because in Sweden he still gets one more interview before charging. Swedish procedures were actually a key point in the appeals to the original extradition order. I'm therefore surprised you're not familiar with the differences between the UK and Swedish systems.

          • Psycho Milt

            So Milt you are saying here that you actually really believe that the UK govt has spent seven years and millions of pounds on this over 2 alleged rape cases?

            Nope, not saying that at all. Any incredulity about the amount of money spent on "2 alleged rape cases" has to do the book-keeping on how much of it was spent because Assange jumped bail and spent 7 years as a fugitive from justice in a known location the cops then had to monitor 24/7 so they could feel his collar if he left it.

            …Thousands of rape cases remain unsolved

            Your implied argument is that, because UK police have done so poorly at investigating rapes in the UK, it's unreasonable for them to have made efforts in this extradition and bail-jumping case. That's a non-sequitur.

            • Adrian Thornton

              No your position that this has little or nothing to do with Assange/Wikileaks exposing govt secrets is fucking inane beyond belief and quite bizarre.

              But I suppose centrists are well known for their fanatical support of the status quo, and supporting without question whatever bullshit is shovelled down their throats, so I guess I am wasting my time on this one with you….quickly go back to the Guardian and get confirmation.

              • You're entitled to feel and express whatever you like about my failure to share your beliefs. Likewise, I'm entitled not to share them.

                • Adrian thornton

                  Except yours and your band of Assange haters make no logical sense, it is like you lot heard the word rape, lost all reason and have turned into a bunch of pitch fork, witch burners from some corny Hammer House of Horrors flick.

                  • marty mars

                    So arrogant that you cannot be wrong or adjust your view ever – you act like those you so rail against.

                  • Except yours [beliefs]…make no logical sense…

                    Lol, you know what pushes my buttons alright! Buttons duly locked.

                    I don't have any beliefs about Assange, other than that he has the same right to due process as anyone else and that letting the Americans get their mitts on him would be a bad idea from a human rights perspective. I just don't share your conspiracy theories about the allegations against him made by a couple of Swedish women, is all. And I definitely don't share the rape apologia views peddled by some of his fans on this blog's comments threads.

                    • Adrian thornton

                      I do not think I have seen one comment that could even have been remotely considered to be ' rape apologia' please refer me to those posts.

                    • Morrissey

                      Careful, Adrian, next label he hauls out will be something equally fabulous—he’s quite likely to start calling people "anti-Semites", or Russian bots, or running dogs, or Trump supporters.

                      As we see with the persecution of Julian Assange, the smearing and the destruction of reputation is what counts, and anything—no matter how fantastical or obscene—is permitted against the prisoner designated for obliteration.

                    • I do not think I have seen one comment that could even have been remotely considered to be ' rape apologia'

                      Seriously, wtf? You've missed all the comments explaining why the female complainants have been duped by conspirators, how their complaints don't really constitute rape, or (the ne plus ultra of the genre) how Sam doesn't see any reason why he shouldn't fuck a fertile, red-blooded woman without a condom? Maybe try actually reading threads occasionally?

                    • Adrian thornton

                      As I asked, point me to a couple…maybe you are right, I must of missed them, I aren't on here as much as you.

                    • Can't remember which thread Sam's comment was on, but the threads on Assange in these two Open Mike's are illustrative:



                    • Adrian thornton

                      I think it is a bit unfair using Sam as your example, I can't follow most of his arguments at the best of time.

                      But I did follow the first link you put up, I still think using the term ' rape apologia ' for what was said is a bit over the top.

                    • McFlock


                      There's outright assertion that the facts stated in court are false (e.g. Moz's claim that it's "state lies").

                      Then there was minimisation, calling it a "no no but not rape", and Blazer calling them "2 starfuckers who compared notes and were…pissed off."

                      Those three seem to me to qualify as "rape apology" to me.

                    • Adrian thornton

                      I didn't see "2 starfuckers who compared notes and were…pissed off."as Milt had just pointed me to Sam's comments..of course I would never condone anything like that, and would have called out the person in no uncertain terms myself had I seen it.

                    • McFlock

                      well, now you know.

                      Maybe take a bit more care reading threads when the topic next comes up.

                      Easy way of looking at it is "would Brock Turner's mates or daddy have said similar things"?

              • bewildered

                The centre exist for a reason as it is proven best unless shown otherwise and change is often difficult because of , the extremes the domain of loonies with the odd insight, but 99pc just loons, conspiracy theorist and ideologoues

                • Morrissey

                  Back to talk radio for you, our incoherent friend. Over at Magic Talk or NewstalkZzzzzzzB nobody cares if you sound drunk and your sentences make little or no sense.

                  Please go there, now.

                • The Al1en

                  Interesting observation, bewildered. I've often noticed how those hanging on to the extreme edge of the fringe of outsider politics always have problems when their marginality is pointed out. Always it's the fault of others why their preferred policies are soundly rejected by the overwhelming majority of the voting public. It must seem like a bizarre world that you can't get what you want without a willing constituency behind you. That's probably why it's easier for those rim clingers to get aggressive and spout hatred towards those who won't have a bar of them.

                • mauī

                  The centre is best… so strange of you to spend an inordinate amount of time here on loons and conspiracies theories then…

            • Professor Longhair

              "….fugitive from justice"

              That was a joke. Right?

      • marty mars 5.1.2

        edit – can’t be bothered

    • mauī 5.3

      Don't forget two prosecutors have already dropped the case and we're onto the third one now… But we must look at this as a straight forward rape case. Yeah right!

      • Brigid 5.3.1

        As well

        Former President of the Swedish Bar Association Bengt Ivarsson:

        "I share the opinion that the District Court was correct in its decision not to detain Assange. The only reasonable thing to do would be to drop this investigation, once and for all."

        • francesca

          He's a rape enabler Brigid, at the very least, or an

          Assange fanboy

          Thanks for that , very interesting!

          • Brigid

            Ah yes. He must be. As I guess we all are who spurn the mainstream media dis-information.

            We should whip ourselves as John Cleese did his car.

            By the way, Jonathan Cook is worth reading.


            • francesca

              Yes, thanks, I'm a great fan of Jonathan Cook after reading "intellectual cleansing" in Media lens

        • McFlock

          Not speaking fluent Swedish, I had to rely on Google Translate. But it seems this might be difficult to mistranslate:

          Forward late afternoon, the judge returned and read the decision. Assange should not be detained.

          The decision brought some surprise, but was very reasonable. The prosecutor has tried to get him detained because of a flight danger.

          As if Assange were able to escape the high security prison in London where he currently serves a 50-week penalty for violating the British bailiff rules.

          It is difficult to get rid of the suspicion that the prosecutor has a completely different impetus. In order to compete with the United States, who also wants to get the founder of Wikileaks, a European arrest warrant must be issued. Which in turn requires arrest.

          But Uppsala's district court did not go on fine. The decision states the obvious. Assange sits where he sits and it is possible to pursue the investigation without being deprived of liberty by Sweden.

          To recap: the request for arrest was on the grounds he was a flight risk. Which he can't be, because he's in gaol. So no grounds for an EAW. So no way to get him extradited to Sweden instead of the USA.

          No rape apology there, just an apparent situation where as long as he's locked up, the yanks are first in the queue.

      • bewildered 5.3.2

        Conspiracy theorist

    • Adrian Thornton 5.4

      As I keep saying on this forum, if someone actually believes that this travesty has anything whatsoever to do with those two girls in Sweden then one can only conclude that whomever believes that could only be extremely naive and/or extremely stupid.

      • gsays 5.4.1

        Or wilfully ignorant?

        I reckon Mozza got it right yesty in one of his dressing downs.

        Round these parts, folk get into their tribes and akin to soccer fans, seem to revel in the repeating of taunts as opposed to engaging in a meeting of the minds. When the willy waving really gets going it is so off-putting.

        I am sure a political junkie can sort people into their groups with acknowledged names eg authoritarian, liberal etc.

        • marty mars

          yes – glass houses eh

          • gsays

            I am often bewildered by what drives all of us to coagulate around the issues that we do.

            I don't get the agitation that arises for the 'other' either,

            • marty mars

              Adrian sums it up – agree with him or be considered 'extremely naive or stupid". That is the special place he comes from and he is not alone in his extreme fundamentalism.

              Rigidity is the ruin of everything imo.

              • Adrian thornton

                No, drawing lines in the sand and saying enough and no further is what you do when you really believe in something..do you remember what that feels like?,actually I think you do, I see you doing just that all the time on TS.

                Yes I am a ideologue, and am proud of it, the big joke with you centrists is that you really think that you aren't, like you have moved past ideology… that is just total bullshit, you are all just as entrenched as me, so why not stop pretending and just being honest with yourself and us. .

                • marty mars

                  Don't call me a centralist you rude shit – I'm LEFT. Always have been and always will be. You just have stopped thinking and have started chucking insults all the time – you ain't as righteous as you think.

              • Drowsy M. Kram

                Agree with both – strongly agree with Adrian re "drawing lines in the sand" on issues you really believe in, particularly evidence-based matters of principle.

                Nevertheless, re Marty’s “extreme fundamentalism” and “rigidity” concerns, on some contentious issues I might harbour private doubts.

                I think it is more interesting to live not knowing answers than to have answers that might be wrong. I have approximate answers, possible beliefs, and different degrees of certainty about different things, but I'm not absolutely certain of anything, and there's some things I know nothing about at all – like whether it means anything to ask,'Why are we here?' I might think about it for a little while, but if I can't figure it out then I'll go to something else. I'm not afraid of being lost in a mysterious universe with no purpose, which is the way it is, possibly. It doesn't frighten me. – Richard Feynman.

                • Adrian thornton

                  @ Drowsy M. Kram, I agree with the last half of Freynman's thoughts, but personally, as far as the first half goes, I like thinking that at least some of my beliefs slowly formed over the past fifty years through my life experiences, readings, debating and observations are pretty solid, I like knowing that I would get into the trenches and fight for some of them.

                  If that makes me a fundamentalist in the eyes of some, well then so be it.

                  • marty mars

                    I am sorry for calling that fundamentalism – that was not correct – I don't think that word applies to you – sorry.

                    For me – as I get old I see that the black and white is always gray. What I believe in is just that, my beliefs. And I believe and defend them with gusto.

                    In not so many years it will matter not a jot. This is good I think.

                    • Adrian thornton

                      No worries, I have got a real thick hide, but thanks.

                      " In not so many years it will matter not a jot. This is good I think."

                      Well I hope not. What you believe and defend and promote in the ways that you can, do matter imo, and the people around you can see and feel that, and maybe some small seeds are planted, and maybe some of those ideas and beliefs are taken forward and grown by another generation, or even just one person, and who knows what that person might end up doing with those ideas we helped to plant?

                      As you well know our beliefs on the Left are the way of the future, well at least they are the one way that would be fairer and have more equal outcomes for all citizens, and lead to a healthier planet, so these ideas are very important, and are worth fighting for…and without constant compromise to the centre.

                      I'll meet you in the trenches.

                      Turn Labour Left!

                  • Drowsy M. Kram

                    Adrian, admit to having some "pretty solid" beliefs myself – could part of what Feynman is saying be that it's important not to forget that they are 'beliefs', and that that's how they may be perceived by (some) others?

                    Maybe put this into the category of reflecting on our beliefs from other points of view, if only to understand ‘the opposition’?

                    And it doesn’t even have to be oppositional. I don’t believe there is a God, but respect the beliefs of believers and appreciate (to the extent that I can) the value and contribution of such belief.

      • bewildered 5.4.2


        • Morrissey


          Could you justify that rather coarse imprecation for the rest of us, please?

    • Professor Longhair 6.1

      They want to silence Assange like they've silenced this Israeli dissident….


      • greywarshark 6.1.1

        And just to mention Mordechai Vanunu.
        In 2009, this American published “What Americans Need to Know about Mordechai Vanunu”, which follows because most Americans still do not know who Mordechai Vanunu is and it matters to USA taxpayers.

        Mordechai Vanunu was released from Ashkelon prison to open air captivity in east Jerusalem on April 21, 2004 after 18 years-most all in solitary.

        In 1986, Mordechai Vanunu was clubbed, drugged, bound and kidnapped from Rome by the Mossad essentially because he told the truth and provided the photographic proof of their clandestine 7-story underground WMD facility in the Negev.
        In the case of Mordechai Vanunu, Americans need to know that the restrictions that have held him captive after 18 years behind bars come from the Emergency Defense Regulations, which were implemented by Britain against Palestinians and Jews after World War II.

        And Jeremy Corbyn's efforts for Vanunu which may have angered Israel and been behind the slurs about him recently.

        The Jerusalem Post’s archive has one mention of a meeting between Corbyn and a member of Knesset in Israel, on April 19, 1998.
        At that time, Corbyn was deeply involved in efforts to secure the early release of Vanunu, who was imprisoned in 1987 for revealing Israeli nuclear secrets to The Sunday Times of London.
        Corbyn, who was a joint vice-chairman of the Human Rights Group of the British Parliament, met with then-Knesset State Control Committee chairman and Labor MK Yossi Katz.

        • greywarshark

          Mordechai Vanunu (whistleblower) video :
          Mordechai Vanunu- Chain Reaction (film by Shmuel Kalderon)

          30 Minutes with Vanunu

          In 2005, eileen fleming began a series of interviews with Mordechai Vanunu, Israel's Nuclear Whistle Blower, that culminated in her third book, "BEYOND NUCLEAR: Mordechai Vanunu's FREEDOM of SPEECH Trial and My Life as a Muckraker" http://www.wearewideawake.org/index.p

          This interview was taped in east Jerusalem, a few weeks after Vanunu's FREEDOM OF SPEECH Trial began in the 'democracy' of Israel. MY latest FAX to Obama @ http://wearewideawake.org/index.php?o

          • Adrian Thornton

            Thanks for those links, I will do some more research on this tonight.

            You are right the Jewish lobby has really done a job on Corbyn, they can now pretty much say up is down, white is black, and the MSM press will print their lies and slander verbatim.

            • Professor Longhair

              It's the Israeli lobby, not the Jewish lobby.

            • greywarshark

              Yes please note that Adrian, referring to the Jewish lobby is incorrect, and Israeli is close to the truth but is it the Zionists in particular? How many Israelis would regard themselves as Zionists?

              • Professor Longhair

                Zionism is a broad church, to coin a phrase. Zionism to some people means the revival of Jewish culture, Jewish art, Jewish religion, and so on. Noam Chomsky calls himself a Zionist.

                The violent, repressive state of Israel is an authoritarian, anti-democratic outlaw state with some Zionists in its ruling elite.

                • greywarshark

                  Ah. Helpful comment on this matter thanks. Matches with what I have read and seen. It can't be a good well-run people's state because I am sure Jewish people respect older people. When I see a young settler woman bad mouthing a group of old Palestinian women and possibly spitting at them, and young men harassing a humble street cart owner I know that is not the true Jewish culture and spirit.

  5. Observer Tokoroa 7

    The Bridges Way

    The National Party through Simon Bridges, has announced to every New Zelander that they may grab any information or any material they want. At any time, anywhere.! Without any permission.

    No wonder New Zealanders see National as "Grab for greed". No wonder National has enforced Poverty on massive numbers of New Zealand Citizens.

    National does its dirty work outside Democracy. But abuses Democracy constantly.

    As our Nation becomes more and more aware of the Anti- Democracy of Simon Bridges and Mrs Bennett, the more National will slither down its own dishonest Slum.

  6. Peter 8

    Has the election campaign started already or is Mike Hosking just stuck in a mid-term hysteria attack. I see the Herald headline today "Hosking: Red alert – this Govt's in danger of plunging into deficit." He seems to be in perpetual attack mode at the moment, a drama queen who unfortunately has a stage. Mind you there are desperate morons ready to fawn at his feet.

    • Incognito 8.1

      Mike had an epiphany when he heard that the Budget had been presented in and to Parliament last week. He’s still catching up.

      • greywarshark 8.1.1

        I hope the medical profession know about this. When someone gets into A&E after having a seizure and their partner explains that the patient has had an epiphany, they might be very puzzled.

        • Incognito

          Yes, A&E specialists know about this and they immediately give an intra-arterial infusion of Kool-Aid Blue. It won’t stop the seizures but deals with the epiphany and associated hallucinations.

    • WeTheBleeple 8.2

      I've never been back to the Herald since the paywall. Brilliant move even their headlines were utter shite.

      If only we all abandoned them, Hosking might have to trade in the maserati for a Lada.

      • Kat 8.2.1

        That paywall will slowly ease off, just like last time. News from inside reports the fish wrap is struggling.

    • Wensleydale 8.3

      No surprises. You could present Mike Hosking with a budget that cures cancer, feeds the Third World and reverses climate change, and he'd still find something to piss and moan about. He needs to bite the bullet and just become a National Party MP. He's three quarters of the way there already.

  7. greywarshark 9


    This would be interesting. The trouble with violence in males often comes from lower income families that have a basic attitude to education and would scorn as perhaps 'sissy' the ideas of understanding psychology and fitting their approaches to child raising within known psychological guidelines.

    The reading I have encountered is that lower income families tend to an authoritarian approach. I saw an example of an older Maori man speaking angrily and sharply to get his son or nephew to come and get in a car. I had encountered the man before at an op shop and got an impression of his circumstances; he seemed an uptight person, I felt he might have been in the army at one time. The youngster, about twelve, came to him but head down and mouth set in an angry line. So if he complained about this attitude of the adult role model, and was told to Toughen up, I don't think that would have been a useful approach for friction in the future. The ability to deal with anger is an essential one for civilised behaviour, not to deny it, but very probably to place the source of it, which is usually quite different than the person who receives the outburst of it, verbally or physically.

    Learning about handling yourself, your emotions, your self-respect and self-understanding, practising empathy in school workshops, regularly, should be part of education. It is more important than the general education received, being part of every aspect of life and actions personal, and in others; understanding guides the best way of say three possibilities to handle difficulties over personalities, tone etc.

    I have mentioned transactional analysis – excellent kit of psychology tools to understand yourself and others and why you do what you do and vice versa.

  8. greywarshark 10

    NZs failed revolution of capitalist economics. What happens when we mass and protest? Depends. We must have achieved some good change. But so little compared to what we perceive as needed. What if we got serious as we did in 1981 for the South Africans? Do we only care about downtrodden people in other countries, other countries' anguish; don't we care about each other? Don't baby boomers care about the young, except their own nuclear family?

    Chris Trotter identifies the need for affordable and secure housing at the base of all the problems. It's hard to get a job if you are couch-surfing, sleeping in a car with your kids!! If you have one, how do you manage to get to work looking neat, ready and clean, with all 'home' responsibilities attended to.

    https://www.interest.co.nz/opinion/100017/chris-trotter-says-left-can-detail-many-privations-too-many-our-citizens-they-cant Chris Trotter went to Bryan Bruce's town hall meeting at Otahuhu to talk about The Peoples Budget, and writes about his observations and feelings:

    …the wish that our publicly-owned television network contained, within its administrative and creative ranks, broadcasters who burn with the same fiery passion to let the voters know what is really happening in their country that consumes Bryan Bruce.

    Passion, however, is not enough – not when the game you are playing is politics. It is a perennial failing of the Left that they allow themselves to become consumed with outrage at WHAT is happening on the meanest streets of their nation; paying far too little (if any) heed to WHY it is happening. Challenged on this, they will glibly attach the ‘why’ of poverty, inequality, homelessness and environmental despoliation to “Neoliberalism”. In much the same way did the religious scholars of the Middle Ages explain the ills of the world by pointing triumphantly in the direction of the Devil….

    The truth which emerged most clearly from the testimony put before the Otahuhu Town Hall meeting is that the unavailability and inordinate cost of decent housing lies at the very heart of the economic and social crises afflicting New Zealand’s poorest communities. An all-out effort on the housing front is, therefore, urgently required if even a tiny fraction of the Coalition’s “wellbeing” promises are to be fulfilled.

    And yet, Robertson’s Wellbeing Budget is almost silent on the issue of housing. Almost, but…[a] line in the 2019 Budget predicts a 21 percent rise in house prices over the next four years.

  9. greywarshark 11

    Please don't forget to refer regularly to the How to get there post on Sundays. Interesting useful practical and philosophical things get put there, and it may be added to during the next week with other stuff.

  10. greywarshark 12

    Brexit backstop vid – short plus a few more.

    It is dragging on but the issues there from the first are still there aren't they? So a few basic reminders of the ordure that Brits are in.


  11. greywarshark 13

    Brexit and NHS

    Thoughts from UKs Nuffield Trust 2017 "…from the Nuffield Trust
    The Nuffield Trust is an independent health think tank. We aim to improve the quality of health care in the UK by providing evidence-based research and policy analysis and informing and generating debate.

    The impact of Brexit on the NHS has been a source of debate and controversy since the figure of £350million appeared on the side of a bus during the EU referendum in 2016. As we get closer to 29th March 2019 – the official date the UK is due to leave the EU – what will the impact of Brexit really look like for the NHS, its staff and its patients?

    (Also: Quantum Technologies Developing the use of sensors and clocks in innovative, ground-breaking technologies to change the future landscapes of healthcare, transport, defence, civil engineering and more.)

    October 2018
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/oct/13/brexit-doctors-and-nurses-nhs-will-get-worse 13/10/2018
    The survey by YouGov also suggests that opposition to Brexit has grown among doctors and nurses, with 75% saying they would now vote to remain in the EU, up from 66% who said they voted that way in 2016.

    2 June 2019
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/02/us-wants-access-to-nhs-in-post-brexit-deal-ambassador-to-uk-says 2/6/2019
    Asked if the NHS was likely to form part of trade negotiations, Johnson told the BBC’s Andrew Marr Show: “I think the entire economy, in a trade deal, all things that are traded would be on the table.” Asked if that specifically meant healthcare, he said: “I would think so.”

    Investigation into Farage – how far did he go?

    The European parliament this week opened an investigation into revelations made by Channel 4 that the insurance tycoon Arron Banks funded a lavish lifestyle for Farage in the year of the Brexit referendum. In 2016, Farage received expenses of about £450,000, including rent on a Chelsea home, furniture, security and promotional trips to the US, where he attended the Republican national convention.

    • CHCoff 13.1

      The Cons' options appear to be a unceremonial hard brexit, a hard brexit with a deal with one of the greatest US president salesman ever, a new referendum, or a election, by end of October.

      British democracy will decide…

  12. Rosemary McDonald 15

    "A pickled intestine in a suit, with shitty feather egg hair"

  13. Ad 16

    PM far too slow off the mark on Treasury with SSC having to step in before she did.


    If only this government would see it for what is: the only opportunity they will get to clear Treasury senior staff out and get fresh friendly bureaucrats in there.

    • Muttonbird 16.1

      Seriously. Treasury and the government came under a concerted attack led out of Chris Bishop's office.

      The PM, the Finance Minister and the Secretary of Treasury have absolutely nothing to apologise for. Doing so would be weak.

    • McFlock 16.2

      God forbid the SSC actually look at personnel issues in the state services. /sarc

      The pollies are doing their part by demanding answers to the leak. The SSC is doing its part by examining individual actions from an employment perspective. Dunno the exact terminology, but it's governance vs operations.

      I very much doubt the Treasury Sec'y clearly fucked up or misled anyone (wouldn't be the dumbest thing to ever happen, though), but it's the SSC's role to find out.

    • Incognito 16.3

      Budgetgate was entirely manufactured by National. It was a set-up from the word go. It caused major confusion and perhaps even a slight panic when they were already under heavy pressure because of Budget Day. I’m sure mistakes were made but some allege a level of deliberation in these mistakes for political advantage. I think this shows National’s thinking and they’re protesting a wee bit too much IMO.

  14. greywarshark 17

    James Flynn exNZ

    Why our IQ levels are higher than our grandparents' | James Flynn

  15. greywarshark 18

    Some details of a mother's violence to her son.

    A mother has appeared in court for breaking a broom across the back of her seven-year-old son. The 34-year-old woman was sentenced to 12 months intensive supervision and 40 hours community work, at Pukekohe District Court on May 8 for a charge of assaulting a child with a weapon.

    Is it better that she be shamed in front of her child and neighbourhood and receive intensive supervision plus 40 hours of community work. What does intensive supervision mean – be watched all the time. Is the 40 hours community work to spend learning a few things, like working out what to do when you feel very angry, what to do with the child when it won't do what it is asked to, ask sympathetically what she could do to relieve herself of some of the pressure she feels. The emphasis should be on habilitation, and breaking the cycle, as it may have been a punishment she received.

    She may be bearing a large burden in the household with no-one to care for her and little co-operation from other adults.

    Workshops on anger management, a free child care while she goes to night school to learn something she enjoys, outdoor camp weekends with her children to give change of scene and mood. All positive things more than the punitive finger-pointing would go far.


    • McFlock 18.1

      Along with the sentence of supervision and community work the mother was also ordered to undergo drug and alcohol treatment, along with any anger management courses ordered by the court.

      Intensive supervision.

      Community work.

      If the courts don't sentence her to classes and camping trips, who would?

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