Open mike 05/01/2024

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, January 5th, 2024 - 76 comments
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For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

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76 comments on “Open mike 05/01/2024 ”

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  1. SPC 1
    5 January 2024 at 8:29 am

    Sandra Coney notes the consequences of the unfortunate relapse by National to the 2005 era of Donald Orewa Speech Brash.

    When he tried to bribe his way into office with an across the board tax cut programme, rather than help to those most in need – summed up as, Kiwi not those of iwi.

    After decades of affirmative action to try to balance out the legacy of colonialism, they want to deny ethnicity/indigeneity has anything to do with deprivation, and that deprivation has consequences in poor health, poverty and so on.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/kahu/sandra-coney-theres-a-link-between-the-new-government-and-the-anti-maori-spiel/YCROSIUGO5FGJKHGJJXNDKQ3JY/

    It is about favour to landlords over tenants, to capital over people.

    And implying that those doing it hard can get by, if the care less about those worse off than themselves. Typically this merely impoverishes the society in which such politicians operate.

    • Anne 1.1
      5 January 2024 at 10:48 am

      Sandra Coney is bang on!

      We are already seeing the first wave of racist initiated vandalism and it won't be the last. It will probably end up in an all out war with some Maori reciprocating the vandalism. The outcome could make the societal division caused by Muldoon and Co. over sporting contact with Apartheid South Africa look like a Sunday School picnic.

    • David 1.2
      5 January 2024 at 11:15 am

      This comment by Sandra Coney "Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and co have unleashed a raft of petty vindictive acts to put Maori in their place because they want them (subservient)" is unsustainable on the facts.

      According to David Farrar (Where all the stories celebrating the increase numbers of Māori in Cabinet? | Kiwiblog) the current Cabinet has 7 Ministers who are Maori, that is 35% of the Cabinet. The previous government ended with 5, or just 28%.

      The Ministers in the new Government who whakapapa Maori hold (or have associates in) significant portfolios, including Health, Housing, Education, Conservation, Children, Prevention of Family and Sexual Violence.

      The leaders of two of the three parties in coalition are Maori, both will be Deputy Prime Ministers over the next 3 years.

      This is real power, real influence.

      But Sandra leaves her best for almost last:

      "Integrating te reo and other features of Māori culture into our daily lives makes us unique, something to be proud of. I believe it’s what most New Zealanders want. We celebrate when we see young Māori achieving, confident in their culture, excelling on the sportsfield. It reflects well on us all as a nation."

      On that I hope we can all agree.

      • SPC 1.2.1
        5 January 2024 at 11:32 am

        The problem is not the composition of the government, but their policies

        What did the Health Minister say about ending the policy of advancing Maori participation in medical education? Nothing. Or ending the Maori Health Authority Te Aka Whai Ora?

        Did having a former sole parent as head of Work and Income in 1998 or as Minister of Social Development do any good – Bennett ended the TIA that she used to develop her career.

        John Key was raised in a state house, but the number of state houses decreased while he was PM.

        Should we be grateful that two political parties that competed for votes by opposing affirmative action for Maori were led by two men with Maori ancestry so no one overseas talks about their racism, just their pandering to it for votes?

        • David 1.2.1.2
          5 January 2024 at 11:48 am

          Having Maori in positions of authority enhances the power and influence they can bring to improving outcomes for Maori. That includes developing and delivering policy. The likely success or otherwise of policies you highlight are subjects of contention, even within Maori.

          • SPC 1.2.1.2.1
            5 January 2024 at 11:57 am

            Until proven otherwise, fig leaf to a pandering to middle class settler concerns about Maori privilege.

            • David 1.2.1.2.1.1
              5 January 2024 at 1:35 pm

              Who are these middle class settlers?

              • SPC …
                5 January 2024 at 1:46 pm

                Those who chose to govern, without regard for the Treaty, after the Governor was superseded by the Premier.

                When democratic government was first instituted in New Zealand, only adult males who owned or rented property of a certain value were permitted to vote

                https://teara.govt.nz/en/document/2484/the-right-to-vote

                Today those the National Party regard as, their voter base.

                • David …
                  5 January 2024 at 1:57 pm

                  Also from Teara:

                  "Māori

                  National has drawn support, and MPs, from Māori of two sorts: those with high iwi rank and those who choose not to go on the Māori electoral roll. The latter group (nearly half of those of Māori descent enrolled in 2018) has significantly affected the result in some general electorates."

                  "Labour has had much more support in the Māori electorates, which National stopped contesting until 2023. However, it recognised that it needed wider connections with Māori. In 2008 incoming Prime Minister John Key signed a support deal with the Māori Party, which held five of the seven Māori electorates, and made the two party co-leaders ministers outside cabinet. Among the concessions were Whānau Ora – a whānau-based health initiative."

                  Party composition and organisation – Te Ara Encyclopedia of New Zealand

          • Anne 1.2.1.2.2
            5 January 2024 at 12:42 pm

            You live in an unreal world David. It's one thing to have largely token Maori in your line-up, its another altogether to deliver policies that will lift Maori and the poor generally out of the doldrums. The previous government was getting there… albeit slowly due to the irritating interference of a world wide pandemic and extreme weather events.

            Despite their pre-election rhetoric, this government has already sown the seeds of racism and potential social upheaval on a grand scale, and anyone who deludes themselves otherwise is – like you – living in an unreal world.

            In short, they lied pre-election and they will continue to lie for as long as gullible voters let them get away with it. So, pick yourself up and return to reality or forever hold your tongue. 🙄

            • Molly 1.2.1.2.2.1
              5 January 2024 at 1:18 pm

              "… its another altogether to deliver policies that will lift Maori and the poor generally out of the doldrums. "

              Policies to lift "the poor out generally out of the doldrums", will have the advantage of lifting also the percentage of Māori who are poor as well.

              This approach has the benefit of providing for all those in poverty – Māori and non-Māori alike.

              • Robert Guyton …
                5 January 2024 at 1:30 pm

                "Policies to lift "the poor out generally out of the doldrums", will have the advantage of lifting also the percentage of Māori who are poor as well. "

                Unless you return them to the doldrums by demeaning them; for example,

                belittling their native tongue.

                • Molly …
                  5 January 2024 at 1:42 pm

                  "Unless you return them to the doldrums by demeaning them; for example, belittling their native tongue."

                  If people are sent into the doldrums by having access to tax-funded Te Reo lessons at any time they choose to do so, in many cases – at a venue of their choice if they can arrange enough for minimum class size – I think their view of "belittling" like yours – is flawed.

                  Also, it is a definite redirection away from the question of poverty. But that appears to be your favoured style, Robert.

                  (Interestingly, you have shown very little concern about the actual "belittling" of the words: woman, girls and females, lesbian, gay, homosexual, single-sex, mother, breastfeeding etc. that have been promoted by government.)

                  • Drowsy M. Kram …
                    5 January 2024 at 1:53 pm

                    But that [redirection] appears to be your favoured style…

                    Interestingly, you have shown very little concern about…

                    Imho, anyone can suffer an attack of redirection. Happy New Year smiley

                    • Molly …
                      5 January 2024 at 2:01 pm

                      I was copying Robert's style since it seemed his preferred mode.

                      Let's see if it works, even if it meanders away from the original conversation.

                    • Incognito []
                      5 January 2024 at 2:40 pm

                      Your reply to RG @ 1:42 pm was full of ad homs. You also accused him of “a definite redirection away from the question of poverty” when RG’s was a direct and specific reply to your assertion of “lifting also the percentage of Māori”.

                      Your last paragraph in parentheses was a diversion and a personal attack on RG.

                      Your pathetic reasoning for your piss-poor comment is that you were copying RG’s style & preference and it is nothing but a passive-aggressive excuse for ‘engaging’ with RG (and some other commenters) in an inflammatory fashion.

                      Do you intend to continue this in 2024?

                    • Molly …
                      5 January 2024 at 6:34 pm

                      @incognito

                      "Do you intend to continue this in 2024?"

                      Unlikely. I prefer my usual form of sticking to the point, and asking others to do the same.

                      But – as you may be aware – the personal appeal of The Standard is not as strong as it once was, so the visits will be sporadic, if that is of any comfort.

                    • Incognito []
                      5 January 2024 at 7:46 pm

                      Thank you for acknowledging the problem and your commitment to sticking to the point. By setting an example, one can hope that others will follow it.

                      FWIW, I’m not bothered either way by frequent/infrequent visits and commenting, as I place more value on the quality of comments and what they add to the debating culture here.

                  • weka …
                    5 January 2024 at 2:19 pm

                    wait, people have access to learning te reo any time they like? Where is this mythical NZ exactly?

                  • Robert Guyton …
                    5 January 2024 at 4:19 pm

                    Thanks, Incognito and nicely put. I feel Molly has a chip 🙂

            • David 1.2.1.2.2.2
              5 January 2024 at 1:45 pm

              The evidence is against you, Anne. The new Minister of Health is not a 'largely token' Maori. He is a highly regarded clinician with vast experience in public and private health delivery. The new Minister for Children and the Prevention of Family and Sexual Violence experienced a childhood of "homelessness, poverty and neglect" (National Portrait: ACT MP Karen Chhour, from state child to Member of Parliament | Stuff.co.nz). These are people with precisely the real life experience to greatly benefit Maori.

          • Patricia Bremner 1.2.1.2.3
            5 January 2024 at 1:35 pm

            David,surprise Winston Peters called his party "New Zealand First" meaning????Well he did not call it 'Aotearoa First'….

            A values statement plain to see. He prefers the Dutch derivative. That's hardly Maori.

            Further, when Winston wanted to advertise his history, did he bring his Kaupapa? No he referred to a cowboy rodeo where he was ‘riding again.’

            • David 1.2.1.2.3.1
              5 January 2024 at 1:50 pm

              And Rawiri Waititi wearing a cowboy hat in Parliament? This could get very silly.

              • Robert Guyton …
                5 January 2024 at 4:50 pm

                What hat do you suggest he wears, David?

                Top?

                Maga?

                A tweed golf cap?

                A Phrygian cap?

                What do you approve of?

                • David …
                  5 January 2024 at 5:11 pm

                  You'll need to ask Patricia.

                  • Incognito …
                    5 January 2024 at 5:40 pm

                    Robert asked you, so either you answer the question or you stay silent. Unless you’re trolling here.

                    • David …
                      5 January 2024 at 7:41 pm

                      Robert is being obtuse. He totally missed the point about the parallel between horses for Winston and cowboy hats for Rawiri.

                    • Incognito []
                      5 January 2024 at 8:06 pm

                      Neither Robert, Patricia, nor I are mind readers and you could have made it clear much sooner that you were thinking of some kind of parallel between Winston’s horses and Rawiri Waititi’s hat. TBH, I don’t get this alleged parallel; does Winston ride his horse to Parliament or into the Debating Chamber? Try to be clearer from now on and you might get somewhere.

              • Patricia Bremner …
                5 January 2024 at 7:03 pm

                That is part of Rawiri Waititi East Coast Kaupapa with horses, and war history, so why are you bringing that into the conversation?

                As for "silly" it is silly to assume Maori ancestry equals Maori values, so numbers become just that unless the community work s done.

            • Molly 1.2.1.2.3.2
              5 January 2024 at 1:58 pm

              "David,surprise Winston Peters called his party "New Zealand First" meaning????Well he did not call it 'Aotearoa First'….

              A values statement plain to see. He prefers the Dutch derivative. That's hardly Maori."

              That's quite an assumptive leap Patricia. Even for The Standard.

              As for Aotearoa, it refers to the North Island. I hesitate to link to Duncan Garner, since some take fright over sources but he relates the historial use here:

              https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2021/08/duncan-garner-should-we-change-the-name-of-new-zealand-to-aotearoa-no-and-here-s-why.html

              Also, Winston Peters himself refers to his personal use in his opening speech to Parliament, so you can hear from the man himself what his reasons are:

              https://youtu.be/KJafGRNvJwg?si=-xJ-lf8DgbOVXjqC&t=731

            • Drowsy M. Kram 1.2.1.2.3.3
              5 January 2024 at 2:28 pm

              Dutch explorer Abel Tasman, "the first European visitor to New Zealand", "named the islands Staten Land", but times change, and so may names – flags even. Early European maps labelled Stewart Island the 'South' island, and the South Island was labelled 'Middle' island.

              I'm naturally conservative (don’t like change), but Aotearoa NZ appeals to me.

              A Kiwi Myth: The Post-Racial Society
              These attitudes still persist today partly due to the conservative nature of the social institutions in which these values are deeply embedded and partly due to our refusal to acknowledge them. The effects of these past actions are still felt today despite their discontinuation. Without recognising the harm that has been done, nothing will ever change and history is liable to repeat itself.

      • Robert Guyton 1.2.2
        5 January 2024 at 1:20 pm

        "According to David Farrar"

        Dies laughing.

      • weka 1.2.3
        5 January 2024 at 2:31 pm

        The leaders of two of the three parties in coalition are Maori, both will be Deputy Prime Ministers over the next 3 years.

        This is real power, real influence.

        It is. But, they still have to work within hugely problematic policy positions which presumably they largely agree with.

        And, women have long known that having women in positions of power is a two edged sword. It can create a false impression about equity and equality. Hence when I argue that we would be better off letting women run things for a while lefty dudes (and dudettes) bring up Thatcher. The right know full well that it's possible to put women into positions of power and still control women's power. Hence Shipley, Richardson and Bennett and the terrible things done to poor women by their hands.

        That there are Māori in the new government is a good thing. But it's also something that should just be happening now to create political diversity and representation. It doesn't signify much about policy though.

        • David 1.2.3.1
          5 January 2024 at 4:25 pm

          Policy is not divorced from increased political diversity and representation. For example, I would argue that Shane Reti's background gives him a unique perspective to achieve greater equity for Maori in targeting immunisation rates, which have declined significantly in recent years.

          • Robert Guyton 1.2.3.1.1
            5 January 2024 at 4:53 pm

            "…Maori in targeting immunisation rates, which have declined significantly in recent years."

            Thanks to the cookers who voted for Winston Peters.

            • David 1.2.3.1.1.1
              5 January 2024 at 5:06 pm

              The immunisation rates for Maori were declining well before Covid.

              • Incognito …
                5 January 2024 at 5:52 pm

                Overall Māori immunisation rates had been declining gradually before Covid-19 but this decline accelerated during the pandemic and it was much faster compared to the total NZ population. The result is that Māori have fallen even further behind.

                As always, it helps to strengthen your argument if you support them with evidence/data from reputable sources. Just saying.

              • Robert Guyton …
                5 January 2024 at 6:32 pm

                Cookers were active before Covid.

                • David …
                  5 January 2024 at 7:32 pm

                  Are you suggesting they are the reason Maori vaccination rates dropped to the extent they did? Cookers? Really?

                • weka …
                  6 January 2024 at 9:08 am

                  Cookers were active before Covid.

                  I mentioned recently that I was considering moderation the use of the word cooker. Here I don't actually know what you are talking about, because the term cooker arose from the pandemic.

                  It would be great if you would find a replacement word that doesn't tie into pejoratives in the general culture. You're a good word person, see if you can find use a term to use that is useful and neutral.

          • weka 1.2.3.1.2
            5 January 2024 at 5:40 pm

            sure, Reti etc will mean that NACTF will have a (somewhat) more progressive right wing position than if the benches were fill with white blokes. It's liberal conservatism.

            You claimed that Coney's words about National's motivations aren't supported by fact. But you argument doesn't mean that National won't implement policy that will harm Māori, it just demonstrates that we have a 2024 government not a 1964 one. What you are saying isn't incompatible with Coney's point and it's entirely possible for National to make some things worse while improving other things that would otherwise have been dire with an earlier RW version of government.

            For instance, National increase benefits in their last term. But not for all beneficiaries, and not enough to lift people out of poverty. They got a lot o kudos and political capital from the increase, which is how they play the game. Since Turei, it's not possible to be so outwardly benefit hating, but a lot of punishment can be done with a carrot in one hand and a stick in the other.

            • David 1.2.3.1.2.1
              5 January 2024 at 8:12 pm

              "But you argument doesn't mean that National won't implement policy that will harm Māori,"

              Of course, but Coney goes far beyond that. She claims that "Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and co have unleashed a raft of petty vindictive acts to put Maori in their place because they want them (subservient)." And that " After decades of action, supported by all governments, to revive te reo, they are trying to stamp out any official mention." The first claim is bordering on irrational, the second demonstrably false.

              • Robert Guyton …
                5 January 2024 at 8:35 pm

                "Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and co have unleashed a raft of petty vindictive acts…"

                Coney is correct, it's plain to see to all but the craven

              • weka …
                6 January 2024 at 9:14 am

                Coney is expressing an opinion about the government's positioning. Her analysis is that a motivator for their policies is to put Māori in their place. Not everyone is going to agree with that, but I think given the responses of the three parties to 3 waters, as well as the referendum on the Treaty, it's not an unreasonable opinion.

                As for the claim that this government is trying to stamp out official mention of te reo Māori, how they have handled te reo names in government departments suggests antipathy towards integrating te reo fully into NZ society. If it was simply a case of too far too fast and Labour having failed to bring people along with the changes (my own view), the messaging would have been different. As it is, the messaging has come across as putting te reo in its place.

    • Muttonbird 1.3
      5 January 2024 at 4:32 pm

      A very short opinion piece. Have to wonder whether it had been heavily edited.

      One thing she refers to and which I think is a major concern is the underlying intent of David Seymour and others to homogenise New Zealand culture. They want to dilute Māori culture and identity, and therefore reduce or remove the uniqueness and pride we feel as a country with that identity.

      That is a form of cultural genocide, a way of finally delivering the full British way of life to NZ, and fulfilling the colonialist intent.

  4. Molly 4
    5 January 2024 at 6:51 pm

    The recently broadcast ITV series looks to be worth the watch. Covering the Horizon Software and British subpostmasters scandal, viewers are reporting their appalled reaction to what is being portrayed. (See comments on video below)

    Series trailer for Mr Bates vs The Post Office:

    https://youtu.be/zPkvYXufpAY?si=_039M__816Kdbydx

    For those who don't know much of the detail, Computer Weekly are a great source, as they were actively investigating the issues when other media were not interested and following up:

    https://www.computerweekly.com/feature/Post-Office-Horizon-scandal-explained-everything-you-need-to-know

    "After more than 20 years, what is now referred to as the Post Office Horizon scandal has become headline news. Computer Weekly has played an important part in exposing what has been described as the widest miscarriage of justice in UK history.

    In 1999, the Post Office’s single shareholder, the UK government, began automating accounting processes at about 14,000 Post Office branches. This saw the introduction of a centralised computer system from supplier Fujitsu, which all branches were connected to. This system replaced traditional paper-based accounting practices.

    But problems ensued, and there was a sudden increase in the number of subpostmasters suffering unexplained accounting shortfalls. Rather than investigate the problems and fix them, the Post Office blamed the branch operators, many of whom it prosecuted for financial crimes, with many more made bankrupt and sacked."

    • I Feel Love 4.1
      5 January 2024 at 10:31 pm

      One of the most saddest things I have watched in a long time, unbelievable what these people went through, are still going through. I found it quite hard sometimes it's quite distressing but worth it in the end. Reminded me about the Nova Pay debacle from years back.

      • Molly 4.1.1
        7 January 2024 at 8:04 am

        Have it on my to watch list, but will wait until I'm in the right frame of mind to watch. I've been following the story since I heard about it a few years ago, and what I know will no doubt have me raging at the innocent tv screen.

        Apparently, there has been some (belated) action on the part of the police to investigate:

        https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/police-horizon-post-office-metropolitan-police-toby-jones-b2474108.html

        I am not reassured by the fact this follows the release of the ITV series. It is as if the information had to be presented in digestible form before investigation, or as if it could no longer be ignored, now that there was more public awareness and outrage.

    • SPC 4.2
      5 January 2024 at 11:22 pm

      Post Office Counters Limited was created as a wholly owned subsidiary of the Post Office in 1987.

      After the Post Office statutory corporation was changed to a public company, Royal Mail Group, in 2001, Post Office Counters Limited became Post Office Limited.

      Royal Mail Group Limited, trades as Royal Mail, is a British postal service and courier company. It is owned by International Distributions Services. The company was established in September 2013, in anticipation of its initial public offering on the London Stock Exchange in October 2013.

      So a privately owned corporation trading as Royal Mail owns Post Office Limited and thus limiting its liabilities serves the shareholders therefor since 2013 – and prior to that the value for the share issue by the government.

      No wonder they ran when Second Sight saw what they saw in 2012.

      The City of London, the Crown and corruption, a story as old as time. This should be before Law Lords and the Privy Council, some would say this level of corruption is a government level scandal.

      The Times, the Financial Times, Daily Telegraph, Sunday Times … where they hell were you.

      • SPC 4.2.1
        6 January 2024 at 6:11 am

        Having a second look at it, it seems that the affairs of Post Office Limited and Royal Mail were separated prior to moves to the public share issue, so the government was quarantined from direct culpability in the courts.

        The Cameron-Clegg (Tories-LD) coalition 2010-2015.

        The Postal Services Act 2011 Post Office Limited independent of Royal Mail Group on 1 April 2012.

        With MPs beginning to raise issues, the government-owned Post Office was forced to take concerns seriously. In 2012, to satisfy demands from politicians, it launched an external review and mediation scheme to look at cases where subpostmasters were alleging problems.

        As part of this, the Post Office appointed and paid forensic accountancy company Second Sight to investigate cases. There were fears this would be used to sweep the issue under the carpet. But if this was the Post Office’s plan, as many suspected, it backfired. It soon became apparent to Second Sight that the subpostmasters were not thieves and fraudsters, but hard-working people struggling with a computer system and an organisation that cared for the reputation of that computer system over the very welfare of its subpostmaster network.

        In 2013, Second Sight produced an interim report that revealed serious concerns about the system.

        Why did the Post Office end the mediation scheme and stop Second Sight’s investigation?

        In March 2015, on the eve of the publication of its full investigation report, Second Sight’s work was stopped and the mediation scheme was closed.

        https://www.computerweekly.com/feature/Post-Office-Horizon-scandal-explained-everything-you-need-to-know

        This did not save Post Office Limited in the courts when earlier judgments were overturned and the subpostmasters convictions quashed and compensation awarded.

        • lprent 4.2.1.1
          6 January 2024 at 9:04 am

          That was horrendous.

          Building systems without operator audit abilities is just outright stupid.

          Allowing criminal prosecution by what is effectively a private company, apparently without govermental oversight, is just a obvious route to miscarriages of justice.

          But doing legal coverups of technical advice in legal actions should result in the disbarment of the lawyers doing it. They are officers of the court and responsible to the court – not to concealing relevant information to the court.

    • SPC 4.3
      10 January 2024 at 9:55 am

      A lot of action very recently after a TV drama.

      Justice Secretary Alex Chalk has met with senior judges to discuss possible solutions to the Post Office IT scandal.

      https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-67918976

      Government ministers have promised a plan as soon as later this week to help hundreds of sub-postmasters clear their names.

      One idea being explored is passing a new law that would exonerate hundreds wrongfully convicted.

      https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-67925304

      https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-67920145

      https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-67925872

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