Open mike 05/08/2024

81 comments on “Open mike 05/08/2024 ”

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1. SPC 1

   5 August 2024 at 8:37 am

   For decades women get fobbed off because it required surgery to verify a diagnosis …

   Wynn-Williams said that international recommendations encourage more ultrasounds and MRIs – instead of surgery – for a quicker diagnosis. Meanwhile, many endometriosis sufferers are hoping for more recognition and research into the condition.

   https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/08/04/decade-to-diagnosis-endometriosis-sufferers-agonising-wait/

   Can Health New Zealand deliver, or do younger women have less political clout than older people – cancer drugs, hip and knee repalcements …
   • Belladonna 1.1

     5 August 2024 at 8:49 am

     Getting even an ultrasound or MRI is seriously challenging in the health system ATM.

     I have both friends and family members with Endo – and it can be a crippling condition, affecting quality of life (and, sometimes the ability to have children), but also (more importantly from the Government perspective), the ability to hold a job, and progress a career.

     But, the same can be said, with equal justification for knee and hip replacements (although, possibly not affecting the ability to have children 🙂 )
     • Kay 1.1.1

       5 August 2024 at 9:04 am

       Most surgeries can be justified on those grounds. I detest the use of the word 'elective', since no-one chooses to go through the process of a surgery with all the associated risks if it wasn't necessary (except perhaps, self-absorbed celebrities and their cosmetic surgeries).

       Now, your ability to receive surgery in the public system seems to more depend on how quickly you'll be dead without it. Appendix, yep. Cataracts, they won't kill you.
       • Belladonna 1.1.1.1

         5 August 2024 at 11:29 am

         Guess that there's still a post-code lottery going then – because my experience (in Auckland) differs. Cataracts – yep, you can get on the list for a publicly funded one (just one eye) – it might take 9 months or so to get to the top of the list. Knee replacement surgery – not a chance, sunshine. It's either private or not at all.
         • Jilly Bee 1.1.1.1.1

           5 August 2024 at 2:12 pm

           I was assessed at Waikato Hospital in March last year for knee replacement surgery. I was told that it needed to happen and that I would go onto the waiting list. I half expected that to be the end of the saga for months if not years, but it all happened in September – I was operated on at Southern Cross Hospital, Hamilton, after having been advised I may well be transfered to a private hospital in Rotoroa, Hamilton or even Auckland. Of course this all happened before the General Election last year, so I have no idea what would happen now.
           • Belladonna 1.1.1.1.1.1

             6 August 2024 at 10:29 am

             Guess that it is an example of different 'rules' in different geographical areas.
           • Drowsy M. Kram 1.1.1.1.1.2

             6 August 2024 at 11:44 am

             Guess Dr Levy will attempt to 'fix' regional inequities in public health services.
       • Visubversa 1.1.1.2

         5 August 2024 at 12:48 pm

         Cataracts won't kill you – but they can stop you doing your job. They can stop you driving, they can stop you from reading, they can make using a computer very difficult. Mine also stopped my voluntary work.

         My eyes are complex – it took 6 months to get all the calculations done for my last surgery. I operated on one and a half eyes for about 8 months. I spend a lot of my $$ on health insurance because of the difficulties with my eyes. I have a corneal graft in one eye, and a very expensive bit of plastic in the other eye.

         After the last surgery which also cleared up a cataract, I can actually see to get safely to the bathroom at night without my contact lenses. I cannot have corrective glasses because the irregularities of my corneas require the use of hard contact lenses.

         My first surgery took nearly 3 years to get right. Corneal grafts are very hard to do – I got very used to seeing someone coming at my eye with a scalpel and a pair of tweezers as they took out the various stitches.
2. bwaghorn 2

   5 August 2024 at 11:23 am

   https://businessdesk.co.nz/article/finance/john-key-pushes-back-on-nicola-willis-hope-for-a-disruptive-kiwibank-academic-labels-idea-irresponsible

   Old boy keys told the nats off twice this week , do you think the youngins will listen!!!
3. Descendant Of Smith 3

   5 August 2024 at 11:56 am

   Good to see the punks taking on the racist right wing fascists in the UK (once again).

   Punks – in town for the annual Rebellion festival – squared off against men in football shirts, separated only by police.

   “England ‘till I die” and “We want our country back,” crowds chanted, alongside: “Oh, Tommy Robinson,” and “Protect our kids.”

   “Where the f*** were you in Leeds?” Others shouted.

   Counter-protesters returned verbal volleys of: “Nazi scum off our streets” as bottles were thrown and minor skirmishes broke out.

   One woman holding a placard saying “Thugs (and) racists not welcome” had it torn from her hands as crowds pushed from the town hall to the Metropole and as sirens filled the summer air.

   https://thelead.uk/skirmishes-and-simmering-tensions-blackpool-protest-wake-southport-attacks-takes-place

   10,000 anti fascist punks are in Blackpool for Rebellion Festival. Safe to say the little Tommy lads misjudged this, like most of their pitiful life decisions. They ran away. Moral of the story: Don’t fuck with punks, they hate the far right.

   https://x.com/supertanskiii/status/1819880615853859318

   Some things remain constant.

   Dead Kennedys – Nazi Punks Fuck Off
   • Barfly 3.1

     5 August 2024 at 12:32 pm

     Tommy Robinson? oh you mean Stephen Christopher Yaxley-Lennon who is skulking in Cyprus hiding from his court case.
     • Descendant Of Smith 3.1.1

       5 August 2024 at 1:22 pm

       Well technically I don't mean that. The right wing fascists chanting it do though.

       His plea to Trump was pretty pathetic though. Elon Musk, Tucker Carlson, Paul Gosar amongst his supporters. Noting he also has supporters in New Zealand including some who petitioned for his release from jail.

       I feel like I'm two days away from being sentenced to death in the U.K. for journalism. Today, I am calling on the help of Donald Trump, his administration and the Republican Party to grant me and my family political asylum in the United States of America. … I beg Donald Trump, I beg the American government, to look at my case. I need evacuation from this country because dark forces are at work. … This is a direct appeal on behalf of my family – we love the United States, I have no future here [in Britain]. The country has fallen.
     • joe90 3.1.2

       5 August 2024 at 2:31 pm

       All roads lead to Farage.

       1/ 🧵Just did a network analysis of the "far right thugs unite" hashtag. It largely seems to be a simulated scandal/outrage to promote the Reform Party and Nigel Farage and – while also being an attack on Keir Starmer.

       https://x.com/marcowenjones/status/1820114563469127841

       https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1820114563469127841.html

       Farage was also described on Wednesday as “nothing better than a Tommy Robinson in a suit” by Brendan Cox, the campaigner and husband of the murdered Labour MP, Jo Cox. Robinson, whose real name is Stephen Yaxley-Lennon, founded the EDL in 2009.

       There was a rapid spread online of misinformation after the attack, with inflammatory far-right narratives rife on the comment threads under posts by Farage and another Reform MP, Rupert Lowe, on their official Facebook pages.

       Under posts by Farage and Lowe, who echoed Farage by saying there was “more to this than we’re being told”, comments ranged from predictions of a coming race war, sharing of misinformation, antisemitic tropes and claims of a cover-up.

       “This is clearly not a case of accidental mischaracterisation. This is Reform and Farage in particular actively spreading disinformation and actively using insinuation to incite anxiety, concern and inflame emotions,” Cox said.

       Farage was described as “utterly shameful” by the Tory peer Lord Barwell, the former MP who served as Theresa May’s Downing Street chief of staff.

       He said: “He is an MP. If he has questions, he could have asked them in the House of Commons yesterday – but he wasn’t there. Instead he prefers to encourage those spreading misinformation on here [social media]. Utterly shameful.”

       https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/jul/31/farage-accused-of-inciting-southport-violence-by-former-counter-terror-chief
       • Descendant Of Smith 3.1.2.1

         5 August 2024 at 4:02 pm

         Indeed.

         10/ Another interesting element is that the account with the most impressions on this hashtag is ReformUK member, @TalkTV Host, and former employee of Cambridge Analytica's parent company SCL Group @ThatAlexWoman (Alexandra Philips)

         I assume the massive copy and paste (as opposed to retweet) is to make it look like more people re individually supporting the right – even if some accounts have shiny new AI generated photos.
         • joe90 3.1.2.1.1

           5 August 2024 at 8:06 pm

           Carole Cadwalladr on the amplification of outright lies and fueling the ensuing outrage.

           .

           Algorithms that send the most outrageous comments viral and a chain reaction of anger and disinformation made the riots that followed the Southport killings inevitable

           […]

           “It feels like it was only a matter of time before we saw something like this in the UK,” said Julia Ebner, the leader of the Violent Extremism Lab at the Centre for the Study of Social Cohesion at Oxford University. “This alternative information ecosystem is fuelling these narratives. We saw it in Germany in the 2018 Chemnitz riots, which this strongly reminded me of. And we saw [it] in the US with the January 6 insurrection.

           “You see this chain reaction in these alternative news channels, where disinformation can spread so quickly and can mobilise people to take the streets – who are then prone to using violence because there’s this anger and these really deep emotions that are, of course, being amplified. And then, from these alternative outlets, it’s carried on to X or on to the mainstream social media platforms.”

           https://www.theguardian.com/media/article/2024/aug/03/a-polarisation-engine-how-social-media-has-created-a-perfect-storm-for-uks-far-right-riots
           • joe90 3.1.2.1.1.1

             5 August 2024 at 8:28 pm

             Apartheid Clyde.

             @carolecadwalla

             He knows what he is doing. His algorithms are a party to incitement to violence. He is publishing Tommy Robinson’s words & pumping them to millions. He has no protection from Section 230 in the UK. He is a publisher. And publishers have responsibilities.

             

             https://x.com/carolecadwalla/status/1820158514259427717
4. Sanctuary 4

   5 August 2024 at 12:43 pm

   I have to say it has been disgusting to see the hysteria around Imane khelif.

   A reprise of the facts.

   Imane Khelif was born female in Algeria, a deeply conservative Islamic country that doesn't recognise trans people as even existing, let alone allowing people to transition.

   She has lost nine times to date to other female fighters.

   The IBA is a discredited, Russian dominated organisation banned from the Olympics because of it's corruption and doping scandals.

   The IBF has an axe to grind with the IOC.

   The IBA has not published any of it's so-called testing results relating to Imane Khelif.

   People merely believed what the IB said because it suited their own agenda to make common cause with a fascist front organisation bent on discrediting the Olympics.

   The IBA is little more than another branch of the vast Russian disinformation campaign aimed at disrupting the Olympics because the Russian have been kicked out for rampant doping and cheating.

   When will all the useful idiots on here who enthusiastically joined the pre-formed narrative pile on to vilify Imane Khelif publicly confess their idiocy and draw the appropriate lesson and show the appropriate level of humility for their gullibility and credulity when manipulated by obvious Russian black propaganda & misinformation?

   Big claims require proper evidence it is to the great discredit of this site that a content creator has jumped on the bandwagon to publish an item attacking someone based entirely on how she looks because it suits her raid culture war agenda. Imane Khelif is a hero in Algeria, where her life story is an inspiration – she is a UNICEF ambassador and walked ten kilometres a day to training when she was a youngster because she was too poor to get there any other way.

   No issue has more exposed the mickey mouse logic and gullibility of the online culture war pseudo-commentariat style than this ever became an issue.
   • Visubversa 4.1

     5 August 2024 at 12:53 pm

     People will be more than happy to "withdraw and apologise" as soon as we see the karyotype results from an an accredited laboratory. A simple cheek swab will settle this argument for once and for all.
     • Sanctuary 4.1.1

       5 August 2024 at 3:16 pm

       So you've reached the guilty until proven innocent state of affairs have you?
       • Visubversa 4.1.1.1

         5 August 2024 at 3:58 pm

         So you have reached the "made up my mind and no evidence is allowed to be produced" state of affairs? You are denying a person the ability to produce evidence to counteract the statements made by the IBA which have produced this controversy?

         One would think that a reasonable person – when faced with the expression of such concerns – would have no problem submitting to a non-invasive test which would conclusively show the facts of the matter.

         They said much the same things about Caster Semenya until the CAS decision came out – and then they didn't.
         • Sanctuary 4.1.1.1.1

           5 August 2024 at 4:07 pm

           I am astonished at the level of stupidity a stubborn refusal to simply admit you were wrong can reach. The IBA made the claim Imane Khelif failed a DNA test.

           Common sense tells us extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You've produced no fucking evidence that Imane Khelif isn't anything but a woman.

           I read on a random website that you were arrested for fucking a pig six month ago, the police don't have any record of this but I'm predisposed to believe you have a porcine festish so until you produce a statement from the pig denying it and a cast iron alibi backed up by your employer I'll choose to believe a random website over the police.

           See how that works?
           • Nic the NZer 4.1.1.1.1.1

             5 August 2024 at 4:30 pm

             Maybe address that the IOC doesn't think 46 XY DSD competitors are disqualified from women's boxing (while the IBA did), rather than throwing random allegations at other commentators. Because unless you agree on that the evidence presented by such a test is irrelevant, as is what the IBA has claimed.

             If its ok for the IOC to include 46 XY DSD competitors in women's boxing then we can ignore the IBA statements entirely.
             • tWig …

               5 August 2024 at 5:13 pm

               As some 46XY DSD women have naturally given birth to children, as I referenced previously, I say Adult, female, whatever.

               GC commentators at TS may be heating this debate up to prop up NZ First in government who threatened to cut off funding to NZ sports bodies with inclusive trans participation policies. This, despite it NOT being an issue in the majority of NZ sports, after considered community debate and policy setting.

               Interstingly, boxing is one sport where they have created ‘open’ categories to address the issue of trans participation.

               And this policy to relate to all levels of participation, not just elite competition level, a US RW weapons-grade ban.

               "Sport NZ advocates for flexibility and bespoke policies suited to each sport, opposing a “one-size-fits-all” solution."
               • Nic the NZer …

                 5 August 2024 at 5:47 pm

                 Lol, I doubt any commentators on TS are motivated by propping up NZ first.
                 • tWig …

                   5 August 2024 at 6:20 pm

                   And yet I saw enough comments at TS before the election of those who were not going to vote Labour/Greens any more because of those parties’ anti-GC political decisions. Who did they decide to vote for, on finding Tanya Unkovich 8th on the NZ First Party list?

                   Any surprise that Tanya has introduced a private Members' bill to make it an offense for any person found using a toilet "who is not of the sex for which that toilet has been designated."?
                   • Nic the NZer …

                     5 August 2024 at 6:37 pm

                     You're saying supporting some policies of a political party makes one a propagandist for that political party?
                   • tWig []

                     5 August 2024 at 7:25 pm

                     If someone voted for NZ First in 2023 on the basis of their GC platform, and helped them get enough party votes to be a member of the Coalition; then yes, in a broader sense, I consider that person to continue to support NZF in general.

                     Can't remember any posts (vs comments) here at TS on either Unkovich's toilet criminalisation bill or on NZF's threatened sports policy, opening things up for maybe an uncomfortable debate. Funny, that. That is why I suggested the Khalif controversy is a proxy here for debate on NZFs sports policy threat.

                     Note the Coalition only backed down on the proposed funding threats once Sports NZ and many individual sports associations basically told the government to get fucked, we've had this discussion with our particular sports community and are happy that our own solutions are fair and inclusive.
                   • Nic the NZer …

                     5 August 2024 at 8:40 pm

                     I'll take that as a retraction, as your original allegation appeared to be that posts were being put up on TS in propagandistic support of some NZ first policy (which is frankly clearly nonsense).

                     I'm happy to assume you miss-spoke and only meant that NZ first policy sometimes takes the same side as GC positions on certain issues and some commenters here may have even supported NZ first policy choices.
                   • tWig []

                     5 August 2024 at 9:19 pm

                     No. Instead of debating the pros and cons of NZF anti-trans policies, which I would expect from TS, given that, apparently, it's the only safe commentary site for kiwi GC advocates, there is a resounding silence here.

                     And so it looks to me like the Khelif story becomes the proxy for re-airing GC views on just who is entitled to participate in NZ boxing (but we can't talk about that!).
                   • weka []

                     5 August 2024 at 9:38 pm

                     Instead of debating the pros and cons of NZF anti-trans policies, which I would expect from TS, given that, apparently, it’s the only safe commentary site for kiwi GC advocates, there is a resounding silence here.

                     It’s probably because most of the GC people here atm are feminists and lefties and we don’t have much in common with NZF policy apart from superficially.
                   • Nic the NZer …

                     5 August 2024 at 9:45 pm

                     Pretty sure the official site policy is if its worth mentioning you can raise a post about it (or just complain all passive aggressive that nobody wrote one for you instead).
                   • tWig []

                     5 August 2024 at 9:53 pm

                     Sure thing. Might take TS up on that post.
               • weka …

                 5 August 2024 at 7:47 pm

                 As some 46XY DSD women have naturally given birth to children, as I referenced previously, I say Adult, female, whatever.

                 Why are you talking about 46XY DSD? Every biologist and sports writer I've seen in the past week is talking about 5-ARD, a DSD that only affects males (who can't give birth).
                 • tWig …

                   5 August 2024 at 8:01 pm

                   Just replying to Nic the NZer who mentioned it in the comment before.
               • weka …

                 5 August 2024 at 7:49 pm

                 GC commentators at TS may be heating this debate up to prop up NZ First in government who threatened to cut off funding to NZ sports bodies with inclusive trans participation policies.

                 Nearly all the comments have been under my post, and most of the people who think there is an issue are left wing feminists and leftie men. I count one person who might be a NZF supporter, and another whose voting preferences I don't know.

                 You appear to be running genderist talking points that don't hold up to scrutiny.
                 • tWig …

                   5 August 2024 at 8:16 pm

                   Please define for me what specifically is 'genderist' in my comments? Is that even a word?
                   • weka …

                     5 August 2024 at 8:37 pm

                     liberal leftie support for gender identity ideology above material reality.
                   • tWig []

                     5 August 2024 at 9:21 pm

                     Thanks, I can tick off lots of boxes on my culture wars Bingo card. Please define genderism for me, though.

                     And there is much less real-world data provided by the GC lobby, as far as my extensive reading has shown, starting with trans women are a danger in womens’ public toilets, if we are discussing ‘material reality’
                   • weka []

                     5 August 2024 at 9:46 pm

                     genderism is the term I use to short hand gender identity ideology. GII is a philosophy based in a range of overlapping beliefs: sex isn’t binary, humans can change biological sex, gender identity trumps biological sex, sex is a social construct, trans women are literally women, and so on.

                     And there is much less real-world data provided by the GC lobby, as far as my extensive reading has shown, starting with trans women are a danger in womens’ public toilets, if we are discussing ‘material reality’

                     Honestly tWig, I think that is the result of two things: the places you choose to engage with, and No Debate. If it weren’t for No Debate, all the evidence would be in the MSM instead of disappearing down everyone’s twitter timeline.
                   • tWig []

                     5 August 2024 at 9:57 pm

                     You might want to tighten up your use of the word in trying to dodge the CW Bingo card.

                     Wiki has a grab-bag of definitions for genderism.
                   • weka []

                     5 August 2024 at 10:08 pm

                     You might want to tighten up your use of the word in trying to dodge the CW Bingo card.

                     Wiki has a grab-bag of definitions for genderism.

                     You asked for a definition and I gave you one so you could understand what I am meaning. I’m more interested here in effective communication than random wiki definitions. I can use GII instead from now on.
                   • tWig []

                     5 August 2024 at 9:59 pm

                     Please define No Debate for me, your in-house lexicon is opaque.

                     I don’t do twitter or social media, never have. Most of the references I have read are articles in ‘print’ media, science papers, and excellent rebuttals put up by pro-trans writers.
                   • weka []

                     5 August 2024 at 10:15 pm

                     that’s a pretty big hole in your knowledge then,

                     No Debate is a strategy developed over the last decade by lobby groups like Stonewall UK, it was designed to stop the public debating the GII agenda they were rolling out. The idea was that instead of putting out ideas and policy change and convincing the public to accept them, debate would not be tolerated and should be blocked and shut down.

                     It was incredibly effective, and has affected MSM and many public institutions like universities, government departments and NGOs.

                     That means that many of the rapid societal changes around GII have happened without public scrutiny. Turns how that is an own goal, because now there is a growing backlash as people start to understand what has happened and what it means.

                     No Debate was broken by a number of key actions, largely by left gender critical feminists in the UK, but also whistleblowers eg at Tavistock. Grass roots feminism and resistance, along with GI activist basically breaking societal boundaries and safeguarding, eventually got through to the MSM, first the conservative press and then eventually the liberal press.

                     Now MSM are more willing to cover the stories. But No Debate still has a strong influence, especially in places like NZ.
                   • weka []

                     5 August 2024 at 10:04 pm

                     Material reality is a term used to refer to nature/the physical world, that exists independently from human perception.

                     For Marx and Engels, materialism meant that the material world, perceptible to the senses, has objective reality independent of mind or spirit. They did not deny the reality of mental or spiritual processes but affirmed that ideas could arise, therefore, only as products and reflections of material conditions.

                     https://www.britannica.com/topic/dialectical-materialism

                     I’m not a marxist, but read and engage with socialist feminists, radical feminists and gender critical feminists who understand Marx, which is where I get my own understanding of the concept of material reality from.

                     And there is much less real-world data provided by the GC lobby, as far as my extensive reading has shown, starting with trans women are a danger in womens’ public toilets, if we are discussing ‘material reality’

                     This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the gender critical feminist position. The argument isn’t that TW are a danger in women’s toilets, it’s that male people as a class are. This is one of the reasons why why we have female spaces and services in the first place. Not all men, but enough of them and we can’t predict which ones, are dangerous to women.

                     TW are a subset of males, and appear to have the same patterns of male socialisation and violence against women as other men.

                     I will post some examples of TW and male violence against women. There’s plenty of it about if you don’t block it.
                   • tWig []

                     5 August 2024 at 10:25 pm

                     But wait, wouldn't that all have come out in Parliamentary debates and select committes on NZ transgender policy and legislation, if there was such incontrovertable evidence that trans people are somehow more violent/evil/nasty than the rest of society? There were plenty of GC submissions weren't there? Must have missed all that evidence.
                   • weka []

                     5 August 2024 at 10:30 pm

                     But wait, wouldn’t that all have come out in Parliamentary debates and select committes on NZ transgender policy and legislation, if there was such incontrovertable evidence that trans people are somehow more violent/evil/nasty than the rest of society? There were plenty of GC submissions weren’t there? Must have missed all that evidence.

                     who has said that trans people are somehow more violent/evil/nasty than the rest of society? Did you just make that up?

                     what makes you think evidence wasn’t presented?
                   • weka []

                     5 August 2024 at 10:21 pm

                     some real world data.

                     https://terfisaslur.com/

                     That’s a website that pulled together examples of the harassment women were getting online for talking about women’s sex based rights. Lots of violent rhetoric. Twitter eventually shut that down after they got hauled before the UK parliament and asked to account for why they were allowing this. So you don’t see it as much now, but the website is a very good example of the kinds of MVAW that is embedded in GII. GII lefties/liberals stood by and let that happen, I spent a lot of time reporting tweets like that to twitter and almost never saw a leftist trans ally condemn them.
                   • tWig []

                     5 August 2024 at 10:32 pm

                     But both sides are 'armed' in that particular culture war, and 'TERFs' and their supporters give as good as they get, if not more, like actually murdering a trans girl in the UK. Or inciting men to go armed into womens toilets, good one, KJ whassaname.
                   • weka []

                     5 August 2024 at 10:56 pm

                     feel free to link to the evidence that gender critical feminists are using online violence and threats against trans people.

                     KJK isn’t a feminist. She’s a right wing populist.

                     I’m not seeing anything gender critical about Brianna Ghey’s murderers.

                     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Brianna_Ghey
                   • tWig []

                     5 August 2024 at 11:40 pm

                     ‘And spporters’ was the key. Splashback for the GC brigade, who may not have committed the violence, but who built up the heat in society to a boil.

                     Perhaps Farage and the EDL riots give a similar analogy.
                   • weka []

                     5 August 2024 at 10:25 pm

                     Evidence and Data on Trans Women’s Offending Rates

                     Written evidence submitted by Professor Rosa Freedman, Professor Kathleen Stock and Professor Alice Sullivan [GRA2021]

                     https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/
                   • tWig []

                     5 August 2024 at 11:00 pm

                     What a sad piece of evidence that is. I was expecting pages and pages, full of breakdowns by crime, etc. But 2-3 pages, one of which misquotes and misinterprets the conclusions 'Swedish study', which I read myself last year, and the rest on the UK trans prison sexual assault data, which, frankly, was a mess (eg, no differentiation between trans men and trans women in that study, just for starters).

                     Here's a submission to the same committe (twice as long, and more readable than the original submission) that challenges, in the politest possible way, the barely-there claims in Freedman, Stock and Sullivan's submission. Honestly, you wouldn't get a pass mark for their one if you wrote a stage 2 criminolgy essay.
                   • Psycho Milt …

                     6 August 2024 at 8:19 am

                     'TERFs' and their supporters give as good as they get, if not more, like actually murdering a trans girl in the UK.

                     OK, so you're not a serious person. Good to know.

                     [Please fix the typo in your email address, thanks – Incognito]
                   • Incognito []

                     6 August 2024 at 9:58 am

                     Mod note
           • Visubversa 4.1.1.1.1.2

             5 August 2024 at 5:44 pm

             The IBA supplied the results of the tests to the IOC. There were two tests – done at two different laboratories. As I said – Khalif could allow the publication of those tests, or get another one done and publish that.

             The pig says you never paid him when you pimped him out!
             • weka …

               5 August 2024 at 7:56 pm

               here's the reference for the IOC having seen the test results,

               PARIS – The athlete who has ignited a worldwide controversy in Olympic women’s boxing was disqualified from the 2023 International Boxing Assn. world championships in New Delhi after two tests, one in India amid that tournament and a prior test in Turkey in May 2022, “concluded the boxer’s DNA was that of a male consisting of XY chromosomes,” according to correspondence the IBA sent in June 2023 – more than a year ago – to the International Olympic Committee.

               The June 5, 2023, letter, spotlighting Algeria’s Imane Khelif, reads, “This situation epitomizes the importance of protecting safe sport, and the integrity of sport in which the Olympic Movement is jointly committed to.”

               3 Wire Sports has seen the letter and the tests.

               https://www.3wiresports.com/articles/2024/8/3/0d4ucn50bmvbndhhqjohaneccoqueq

               via https://quillette.com/2024/08/03/xy-athletes-in-womens-olympic-boxing-paris-2024-controversy-explained-khelif-yu-ting/
   • Anker 4.2

     5 August 2024 at 3:10 pm

     https://podcasts.apple.com/nz/podcast/the-real-science-of-sport-podcast/id1461719225?i=1000664021676

     I think this podcast featuring Professor Ross Tucker, a sports scientist is outstanding on the subject of these two boxers. Thoroughly recomend you listen to it Sanctuary if you want unbiased scientific evidence on this situation.

     BTW the IBA can't release the tests undertaken by these two boxers it is confidential information. But both boxers had the opportunity to appeal to the Swiss based Court of Arbitration for Sport and chose not to.

     As to the Italian woman boxer who stated she withdrew from the match because she feared for her life? Well who cares about her or believes her anyway (sarc)
     • tWig 4.2.1

       5 August 2024 at 7:58 pm

       Reference, please for Italian boxer withdrawl.
       • weka 4.2.1.1

         5 August 2024 at 8:01 pm

         reference for what?
         • tWig 4.2.1.1.1

           5 August 2024 at 8:18 pm

           A citation for your Italian boxer. I presume you don’t mean the boxer who took part in the bout, and who apologised for her comments?
           • tWig 4.2.1.1.1.1

             5 August 2024 at 8:23 pm

             Her apology included the words " I was angry because my Olympics had gone up in smoke,"

             “Actually, I want to apologize to her and everyone else. I was angry because my Olympics had gone up in smoke. I don’t have anything against Khelif. Actually, if I were to meet her again I would embrace her.”
             • weka …

               5 August 2024 at 8:36 pm

               are you trying to imply that Carini didn't say she ended the fight to preserve her life?
               • tWig …

                 5 August 2024 at 9:37 pm

                 No, read Casini's full comments in her post-match statement in the article I cited. Vsub is creating a victim where there is a boxer who says she quit the bout because it was too difficult for her, her words immediately on pulling out were driven by anger at losing her Olympic opportunity, and does not 'blame' Khelif, where many here are.

                 That is as valid an interpolation of Casini’s state of mind as that postulated bu Visub, and one tjat grants Casini considerably more agency than a victim frame.
                 • weka …

                   5 August 2024 at 9:41 pm

                   he was in tears in the ring and as she faced the media after the bout.

                   “I wasn’t able to finish the match. I felt a strong pain to my nose and I said [to myself] for the experience that I have and the maturity as a woman that I have, I said I hope my nation won’t take it badly, I hope my dad won’t take it badly – but I stopped, I said stop for myself,” Carini told BBC Sport.

                   “It could have been the match of a lifetime, but I had to preserve my life as well in that moment.

                   “I didn’t have fear, I don’t fear the ring. I don’t fear taking the blows. But this time there’s an end for everything, and I put an end to this match, because I wasn’t able to [continue].”

                   https://www.bbc.com/sport/olympics/articles/cw0yvln9z00o
                 • weka …

                   5 August 2024 at 9:42 pm

                   maybe slow down, because you seem to be confusing anker, visub and myself.
       • Anker 4.2.1.2

         5 August 2024 at 8:23 pm

         https://www.theguardian.com/sport/article/2024/aug/01/angela-carini-abandons-fight-after-46-seconds-against-imane-khelif

         Here's the reference for the Italian female boxers withdrawal
         • weka 4.2.1.2.1

           5 August 2024 at 8:31 pm

           please provide the supporting quote, so people don't have to read a whole article to parse your meaning.
           • Anker 4.2.1.2.1.1

             5 August 2024 at 9:19 pm

             “After the second punch, after years of experience, I felt a strong pain in the nose. I said enough, because I didn’t want. I couldn’t finish the fight after the punch to the nose. So it was better to put an end to it.“

             the quote from the article as requested
   • I Feel Love 4.3

     5 August 2024 at 4:04 pm

     Thanks Sanctuary, brilliant comment, appreciated.
   • SPC 4.4

     5 August 2024 at 4:27 pm

     The IBA is to make a statement later today.

     The body that oversaw that 2023 event is the International Boxing Association (IBA) and it says both fighters failed gender eligibility tests.

     On Monday the IBA will hold a news conference to give a “detailed explanation of the reasons for the disqualification”.

     They oppose the newly formed WBO being recognised by the IOC as their replacement.

     The IBA, formerly known as AIBA, was formed in 1946 as a worldwide governing body for amateur boxing. The IOC recognised the IBA as the sport’s governing body until 2019.

     https://www.bbc.com/sport/olympics/articles/cnk4427vvd2o
   • weka 4.5

     5 August 2024 at 5:16 pm

     'I can't be bothered learning about DSDs, femaleness is an assignment, not biology, I hate the Russians therefore anyone associated with them is tainted beyond redemption and handily it means I don't have to consider how my politics might fuck over women, but who cares, let's just pretend they're all bigots anyway, or culture war dupes'

     Fwiw, Khelif could have been an amazing ambassador for sports people with DSDs. But who cares about them eh.
   • Psycho Milt 4.6

     5 August 2024 at 5:37 pm

     A reprise of the facts.

     Immediately followed by:

     Imane Khelif was born female…

     Please be a bit more discerning in splashing the word "facts" about. There's strong evidence Khelif is male and so far no evidence beyond "Trust me bro it says so right there in her passport" or "But she was raised as a girl" that Khelif is female.

     If you are wrong in your claim, and I believe you are wrong, you are advocating for male athletes to punch female athletes in the face as a public spectacle and be rewarded for doing so. Given what's at stake, some consideration of the possibility you may be wrong would be well advised here.
     • SPC 4.6.1

       5 August 2024 at 5:49 pm

       There is also evidence that legal cisgender female identity and biological XX sex may be different.
       • Psycho Milt 4.6.1.1

         5 August 2024 at 6:56 pm

         I agree, there's a huge amount of evidence that identity claims about sex can be different from a person's actual sex. This is why identity claims are worthless when the stakes are as high as "If we're wrong about this, a man will get rewarded for punching women in the face as public entertainment." Actual sex can be tested for and, in this context, absolutely should be.
     • Visubversa 4.6.2

       5 August 2024 at 5:51 pm

       It is interesting that the Gender Idealogues who up till now have been saying that sex is "assigned at birth" presumably by the appearance of the genitalia, and can be assigned wrongly, are now all sex absolutists saying that the boxers were female at birth, were raised as female, and are female now.

       The "assigned at birth" mantra which was stolen from the language which was used in relations to persons with a DSD in the times and places where chromosome tests were not available, is very applicable in the current circumstances but the words have conveniently vanished from the lexicon.
       • weka 4.6.2.1

         5 August 2024 at 6:21 pm

         and 'born female', as if sex development in the womb doesn't exist.

         Such a lost opportunity for us all to learn about how human biology works and how we establish cultural meaning from that.
5. SPC 5

   5 August 2024 at 12:57 pm

   Is it because the landlord class have health insurance?

   “Under-investment in general practice is a false economy that will result in delayed diagnoses, greater ED attendance and hospital admissions, all of which will cost a lot more than the investment needed to adequately fund a sustainable GP service.”

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350363007/skyrocketing-family-gp-fees-quite-sickening-doctors-say-its-last-resort
6. Anker 6

   5 August 2024 at 2:23 pm

   https://newsroom.co.nz/2024/08/05/if-youre-going-to-protest-critical-minerals-mining-at-least-walk-the-talk/

   An interesting read about how we get to net zero
   • SPC 6.1

     5 August 2024 at 5:15 pm

     Mining meeting sound regulatory criteria – not on the conservation estate, and not carbon is not in question.

     Carbon gas

     https://cylinderguy.co.nz/ask-pete/tips-advice/all-about-gas-water-heating

     Coal for local power, or export/steel

     https://www.nzpam.govt.nz/nz-industry/nz-minerals/minerals-statistics/coal/operating-mines

     https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/environment/515221/is-nz-bringing-in-indonesian-coal-every-month-to-keep-the-lights-on

     The future of reserve power is with the battery.
     • Ad 6.1.1

       5 August 2024 at 6:17 pm

       NZ is now in very high risk of hydropower not meeting demand this spring. Low snowpack and S.I. lakes.

       Minister Watt needs to prepare the MBIE team and the EA for short term fixes not just strategies. Transpower are barely coping as is.

       Watt and Jones need to call in that big Southland wind farm before it gets pecked to death by locals.

       Good to see Shaw commenting there.
7. SPC 7

   5 August 2024 at 4:35 pm

   Another component in the health care system in crisis.

   No pay rise offer and no government funding commitment.

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/524201/thousands-of-ambulance-officers-to-strike-as-sector-in-worst-state-ever-seen

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