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Open mike 05/10/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 5th, 2021 - 166 comments
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166 comments on “Open mike 05/10/2021 ”

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  1. Tiger Mountain 1
    5 October 2021 at 6:24 am

    No need for a long post when Idiot Savant puts it so succinctly…

    http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2021/10/surrendering-to-virus.html

    COVID response is now entering “everyone for themselves” territory.

    For months media channels have been filled with the whingers No Right Turn blog describes–the “state support is s-s-socialism” brigade have often been the first to put their hands out during COVID. From Taxpayers Union to Destiny Church, to corporates, to NZ’s sprawling petit bourgeoisie, the dog eat dog model they usually espouse faded, and saw numbers of them become “dirty, filthy, beneficiaries” soon enough. You can check on MSD site which employers have received wage subsidies and the amounts.

    Meanwhile working class people’s stories have remained largely untold–when it would have been easy enough to pay every citizen a basic income through IRD rather than complicated scenarios via employers. Thousands of cases relating to forced use of leave and other anomalies remain before Employment Tribunals, Courts and Mediators. “Time out” payments while waiting for test results etc. were not widely publicised–and I am an avid media consumer.

    The PM has absolutely done a great job up till now on COVID but that ended yesterday.

    • bwaghorn 1.1
      5 October 2021 at 7:01 am

      All anger should be pointed at the the fuckwits that couldn't follow the tried and proven lockdown road map that worked the in the first outbreak.

      It is just a managed retreat for nz now so it's going to be a make it up as you go situation

      • Jenny how to get there 1.1.1
        5 October 2021 at 7:42 am

        bwaghorn

        5 October 2021 at 7:01 am

        All anger should be pointed at the the fuckwits that couldn't follow the tried and proven lockdown road map that worked the in the first outbreak.

        Blaming gangs and other criminal elements and the minority of lockdown breakers, ignores the fact that the Level 4 lockdown was working.

        The proven lockdown road map that worked in the first outbreak was the hard Level 4 lockdown.

        Level 4 lockdowns work.

        Because of the greater transmissibility of the Delta varient compared to the original, it was just taking longer.

        Those at the bottom of society are the scapegoats for every government failure and loss of nerve in history.

        If there is any blaming to be done it should be aimed at the top of society, those business leaders and economists and financiers that pressured the government to lift the Level 4 lockdown while the virus was still circulating in the Auckland region.

        MUST READ: Blame Games

        By Chris Trotter

        September 30, 2021

        https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2021/09/30/must-read-blame-games/

      • Jester 1.1.2
        5 October 2021 at 8:12 am

        It's basically been level one down at Okahu Bay over the last month!

        • Jenny how to get there 1.1.2.1
          5 October 2021 at 9:22 am

          Here in Papakura same story, it has been pretty much been Level 1 here as well.

          The road traffic in our street is back to normal levels.

          The neighbour at the back of us had two vans of workmen, sans-masks at his house installing a heat pump.

          Across the road the house has just been bought by a young couple, who before moving in had three vans of painters doing up the place. Again sans-masks.

          It seems that people have been taking the drop in levels as a message to push it to the limit.

          The commentariat have done their best to reinforce this message. Almost all commentators, (as far as I can tell), are saying the government has abandoned their world beating elimination strategy.

          Chris Hipkins said yesterday that we have to live with the virus, confirming what the pundits are saying.

          Covid response minister Chris Hipkins admits zero Covid cases are a thing of the past

          NZ Herald – 4 Oct, 2021 06:07 PM

          Covid-19 response minister Chris Hipkins has admitted New Zealand may not eliminate the virus after today's alert level announcement….

          …Speaking to Newstalk ZB's Heather du Plessis-Allan, Hipkins accepted New Zealand may not return to days of zero Covid cases.

          "We have been trending in that direction for the past few weeks and I think people won't be too surprised by that," he said….

          …..Asked whether Auckland's boundary would still be in place by Christmas if mystery cases were still being found, Hipkins said it would be unlikely the boundary would be in place then.

          https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-covid-response-minister-chris-hipkins-admits-zero-covid-cases-are-a-thing-of-the-past/VTCVIKEYPR2HCPOEBUGYSE4Q4I/

          • Jenny how to get there 1.1.2.1.1
            5 October 2021 at 9:29 am

            The Claytons lockdown. The lockdown you have when you are not having a lockdown.

            NZ joins the ranks of failed states in containing the virus.

            L4 works in severing transmission. L3 hardly. L2.78 probably not a bit.

      • Tricledrown 1.1.3
        5 October 2021 at 10:46 am

        Delta bwaghorn is a far more contagious variant while in the first outbreak lockdown worked and we had a good run.

        Delta outsmarted a much more rigorous regime to stop it.

        This is nature fighting back humans are fucking the planet and this is a forewarning of more disasters coming.

        • bwaghorn 1.1.3.1
          5 October 2021 at 1:46 pm

          You are aware that "the planet " cant think or act aren't you?

          • Robert Guyton 1.1.3.1.1
            5 October 2021 at 2:06 pm

            Oh yes She can!

          • Tricledrown 1.1.3.1.2
            5 October 2021 at 3:22 pm

            Bwagjorn if you know anything about science and closed ecosystems.

            You will know that they have tipping points ie like yeast in making alcohol in a bottle the yeast eats the sugar producing alcohol which when it gets to a point the alcohol kills the yeast.

            The planet is a closed ecosystem humans are overpopulating he planet using up the resources leaving poisons those poisons are getting to a tipping point that we can't reverse.

            • alwyn 1.1.3.1.2.1
              5 October 2021 at 3:52 pm

              How do you know that " those poisons are getting to a tipping point that we can't reverse."

              After all far worse things have happened to earth over the last few billion years and life on earth is still flourishing. It might be different forms of life but it still goes on.

              There has been nothing at all that mankind has done that can compare to the meteorite (or asteroid, or comet) that hit about 65 million years ago and wiped out the dinosaurs. Indeed without that it is probable that we would never have developed to become the dominant lifeform.

              Even smaller events usually end up having much fewer long term effects than we at first think. The Rena sinking for example. The Environment Ministry says, in 2021, "Today, the environment is recovering well. Experts expect that this shipwreck shouldn't have any long-lasting effects on Bay of Plenty beaches and coastal fisheries.",

              Anyway back to the point. What are the tipping points that concern you and how do you decide that a tipping point is nigh?

              • Tricledrown …
                5 October 2021 at 4:14 pm

                Alwyn you are providing a very small disaster as a false equivalence. Have you ever travelled .We are isolated on a small island with plenty of wind to blow most of our pollution away making NZ look clean.But where we have big populations ie China people live in very small apartments in tall buildings most days/daze people can't even see the neighbouring building less than 100 metres away the pollution is that bad. Most of Europe you can't see the Horizon on most days except when there is a strong wind.

                The NZ govt the Key govt spent $32 million on a combined $400 million ice drilling project on the Antarctic. I know the scientist's who worked on this.

                They found the last time CO2 levels reached the levels that are present today the Antarctic melted.

                Even the Oil companies agree that global warming is caused by fossil fuel burning and overpopulation.

                Looking at the whistle blowers at Facebook and Pandoras show the fossil fuel industry is pushing the same slippery lies you are promoting without question.

                You are a bigoted psychophant.

                As with your unyielding belief in corporate claptrap.

                • alwyn …
                  5 October 2021 at 6:27 pm

                  "They found the last time CO2 levels reached the levels that are present today the Antarctic melted.".

                  There are a couple of things that come to mind. If the ice had all melted there would be none left from that era for them to drill into. What were they looking at then?

                  What was it that caused the high CO2 levels in the past, if it wasn't human beings burning fossil fuels?

                  Why do you feel such a desperate need to abuse people you have never met? Do you have a raving inferiority complex

                  • Tricledrown …
                    5 October 2021 at 11:22 pm

                    I called you out for your anti science Pro big oil Pro propaganda cult like following.

                    Bigot and sycophant describe your behaviour .

                    It's not abuse telling you the truth something unknown to you.

            • bwaghorn 1.1.3.1.2.2
              5 October 2021 at 5:22 pm

              I'm not disputing the fact that we've possible cooked our goose, I'm saying people who think this great big old rock were on is sentient are daft as a very daft thing.

              • Stuart Munro …
                5 October 2021 at 7:36 pm

                Earth can behave somewhat as if it were sentient – if one clears all the scrub off steep land for example, Nature may be offended enough to punish you with slips.

          • Drowsy M. Kram 1.1.3.1.3
            5 October 2021 at 4:44 pm

            You are aware that "the planet" cant think or act aren't you?

            Humans giving the matter any thought mostly agree that only creatures with conventional nervous systems can 'think' as we understand it, which is an unsurprising consensus – when you think about it.

            Even if ‘our’ planet can't think (as we understand it), (re)acting is another matter.

            For myself, I admire 'our' planet's abiding patience and stoicism, but then it's had a lot longer to mull over events, in its own way.

            Book review – Islands of Abandonment: Life in the Post-Human Landscape
            The book’s subtitle captures its spirit perfectly. Devoid of self-indulgence or decadent ruin porn, I instead found Islands of Abandonment a thoughtfully written and utterly spellbinding book. Flyn wields the pen of a poet but never loses sight of the importance of getting the biological details right. What a fantastically haunting book!

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaster_than_Empires_and_More_Slow

    • Gosman 1.2
      5 October 2021 at 7:06 am

      What was the purpose of the vaccination programme if we weren't eventually going to open up and learn to live with the virus?

      • KJT 1.2.1
        5 October 2021 at 7:30 am

        The purpose was to allow us to"open up" and avoid strict lockdown, when! enough are vaccinated to make that a viable option.

        Not! To "open up" to soon pushed by self interested fools who ignore the lessons from overseas, ending up with a deadly fuckup, with hospitals overwhelmed and people dying in the thousands. And a lot more than just a few tourist and hospitality businesses failing, because Covid has taken off.

        I doubt if the perpetrators of the concentrated moaning and bullshit from the media, and the supporter's of "let her rip and damn the consequences" will take any responsibility for the results.

        • Gezza 1.2.1.1
          5 October 2021 at 7:45 am

          Damn straight ! 👍🏼 🐧

        • DukeEll 1.2.1.2
          5 October 2021 at 7:47 am

          Why wasn’t it given the highest priority then? Seems to have been a lot of oopsies and it took a crises to really get the vaccine roll out moving.

          proper ambulance at the bottom of the cliff stuff

          • weka 1.2.1.2.1
            5 October 2021 at 8:47 am

            Please fix your email address at next comment. Typos in Name and Email fields mean your comment gets held up by the filter.

          • KJT 1.2.1.2.2
            5 October 2021 at 8:55 am

            Hard to see how the vaccine rollout could have happened faster.
            Given the constraints, of safety, seeing which vaccines work, testing, supply, logistics, organisation and training required.

            Of course if you are one of the right wing children, who think these things can be done instantly……..

            • DukeEll 1.2.1.2.2.1
              5 October 2021 at 9:37 am

              Portugal is a country that isn't famous for bureaucratic competency, they screamed out to 85%.

              Most of the OECD got it's act together before New Zealand. We were last / second last for a very long time until it became apparent we actually would need vaccines.

              Of course, if you are an apologist for state sector incompetence, long time frames to get anything done are acceptable.

              • Tricledrown …
                5 October 2021 at 3:53 pm

                Portugal is a part of the EU which prioritized member states vaccine rollout.As Europe can make its own vaccines.

                So we were lucky to get any vaccines.

                Then we have only had 3,000 cases <30 deaths. Only 2 in this outbreak.

                Portugal 1.25 million cases 18000 deaths. Currently 200 odd daily cases 7 deaths a day.

                DukeELL you are putting false equivalences out there,ie lies.

                • DukeEll …
                  5 October 2021 at 4:35 pm

                  My point was that Portugal got to 85% with startling rapidity, in a country whose public service makes kiwibuild look fast.

                  That's not false equivalency, it's fact. except the parable, that's hyperbole

                  • McFlock …
                    5 October 2021 at 4:48 pm

                    So you think we should have been vaccing more people at the same time the surrendertariate were claiming we were running out of jabs? Doom in June, wasn't it?

                    We vaxed according to our supply. As Jenny points out below, Pfizer has outright denied claims that we could have gotten more and quicker deliveries if we'd cut them a bigger cheque.

                    EU producers prioritised EU members for EU vaccine production. that's how Portugal could vax so quickly. They also seem to have plateau'd at 86%. I hope you don't expect us to copy that?

                  • KJT …
                    5 October 2021 at 5:44 pm

                    Portugal has, in fact done rather well recently in many metrics, as it becomes more Socialist. However we have still done better to date with combating Covid.

          • dv 1.2.1.2.3
            5 October 2021 at 9:03 am

            I assume you have had both Jabs.
            If so when?

        • tc 1.2.1.3
          5 October 2021 at 8:06 am

          The media continue to undermine and misrepresent.
          Listening to ardern yesterday handling the gotcha mob again with their pre-determined narrative bolted on regardless of anything that's presented.

          • mpledger 1.2.1.3.1
            5 October 2021 at 12:55 pm

            The media have such a lot to answer for. Even RNZ was, for all intents and purposes, inciting students to go to school without masks.

      • Tricledrown 1.2.2
        5 October 2021 at 10:48 am

        Gosman that's correct it is now up to everyone who can get vaccinated .

      • Kiwijoker 1.2.3
        5 October 2021 at 2:50 pm

        A point that most seem to have missed!

    • garibaldi 1.3
      5 October 2021 at 8:41 am

      Well said TM. The Liberals ( the spoiled narcissistic hedonistic adult children) have won again. We need more Socialism, not this greedy neoliberalist Individualism that we are collectively suffering from.

    • miravox 1.4
      5 October 2021 at 8:51 am

      Marc Daalder over on Newsroom fills in the detail…

      “the opportunity to cleanly end elimination has been taken out of our hands. Instead, we are messily transitioning to a suppression strategy while vaccination rates remain too low to, on their own, prevent hospitals from being overwhelmed with Covid-19 patients.”

      The elimination strategy arose because our health system would be quickly overwhelmed with runaway covid. The same thoughts were behind the quick lockdown for Auckland this time. I cannot see how the health and contact tracing systems have been bolstered with enough resources to manage an outbreak in an under-vaccinated population.

    • georgecom 1.5
      5 October 2021 at 9:53 am

      I have been reading various reports from people & sectors of society worried about the government ending the elimination phase – Maori leaders, Pasifika leaders, the disabled. Our government did a great job of elimination, our health system did a great job of elimination. That phase has ended. It's over. What the government and the state apparatus can do has reached it's limits. The solution now rests with people, people taking responsibility to do the right thing and being vaccinated.

      Whether you see that as individual responsibility or a collective action isn't so much the issue, essentially it's both. Taking personal responsibility for your own safety and being part of the collective response and doing it for all of us. So far 80% of eligible NZers have or are on track to be double dosed.

      The pretty blunt message from here on in for those populations who are worried about the elimination stage – covid is coming, get prepared, get vaccinated. There are opportunities to be vaccinated, take them. If of course the opportunity to be vaccinated has not yet been given to people in Te Kaha or Marokopa or Lewis Pass or where ever then that IS the responsibility of the health system to make it so. It's the responsibility of the local population to get people to attend. If it means an inhouse visit for someone disabled to be vaccinated, that's the way to go. It means vaccinations set up in some high school, eg parts of South Auckland.

      However there will be a time, and it's not too far off (albeit frustratingly not immediate) when the country gets to 90% vaccination and the brakes will come off. If someone has not taken advantage of that opportunity to be vaccinated then prepare to meet covid-19. Yes I can see how people are worried about the appearance of covid-19 in communities. They should be and hopefully that is the incentive for them to go and get jabbed.

      • Janet 1.5.1
        5 October 2021 at 10:39 am

        “ What the government and the state apparatus can do has reached it's limits. The solution now rests with people, people taking responsibility to do the right thing and being vaccinated.”

        So true and I think the government has done a brilliant job of Covid control on the run. They have managed each stage on the known facts before them at each stage and they clearly have worked closely with our highly qualified professionals and academic to bring forth well nuanced strategy.

        I was fully vaccinated by mid August.

        The people who have compromised the latest Lockdown in Auckland and those who are still unvaccinated can reap what they sow and when it comes to prioritising ICU beds pick the vaccinated ones first – should one come in.

        “ What the government and the state apparatus can do has reached it's limits. The solution now rests with people, people taking responsibility to do the right thing and being vaccinated.”

        So true and I think the government has done a brilliant job of Covid control on the run. They have managed each stage on the known facts before them at each stage and they clearly have worked closely with our highly qualified professionals and academic to bring forth well nuanced strategy.

        I was fully vaccinated by mid August.

        The people who have compromised the latest Lockdown in Auckland and those who are still unvaccinated can reap what they sow and when it comes to prioritising ICU beds pick the vaccinated ones first – should one come in.

        • Janet 1.5.1.1
          5 October 2021 at 10:58 am

          Woops , doubled up – too late too edit out !

        • Anne 1.5.1.2
          5 October 2021 at 11:04 am

          The people who have compromised the latest Lockdown in Auckland and those who are still unvaccinated can reap what they sow and when it comes to prioritising ICU beds pick the vaccinated ones first – should one come in.

          Touché

          I'm getting sick of the excuses being made on behalf of those who have made no effort to be vaccinated. Of course there is a small element who are hard to reach for whatever reason, but the bulk of the unvaccinated are too lazy, or are listening to false prophets. Well, more fool them. They reap what they sow.

          • garibaldi 1.5.1.2.1
            5 October 2021 at 11:47 am

            "They reap what they sow". Careful Anne . Thirty five years of neoliberalism has left an "underclass" who have had nothing to sow because of the system's deliberate treatment of them. Little wonder they end up making, what a certain John Key called, poor choices.

            • McFlock 1.5.1.2.1.1
              5 October 2021 at 2:18 pm

              If they even view those "choices" as viable options from the hand that hits them.

              They reap what got sown on top of them.

            • Anne 1.5.1.2.1.2
              5 October 2021 at 3:53 pm

              If you think I am calling out Maori or Pacific peoples… I am not. It is my humble opinion that, in terms of numbers, there are just as many Pakeha who are unvaccinated. Unlike some Maori and Pacific Islanders, they have virtually no mitigating circumstances whatsoever. Stupidity is their guiding light and I have nothing but contempt for them.

          • georgecom 1.5.1.2.2
            5 October 2021 at 2:42 pm

            vaccine passports for anyone who presents in ED or ICU with covid symptoms? If vaccinated immediate access to ICU or HDU of needed. If not vaccinated, a triage tent in the car park. There is a principle in law that 'ignorance is no defence'

        • miravox 1.5.1.3
          5 October 2021 at 11:05 am

          "…those who are still unvaccinated can reap what they sow and when it comes to prioritising ICU beds pick the vaccinated ones first – should one come in."

          Harsh but fair. But it's not the prioritisation of the vaccinated over non-vaccinated that worries me. It's the competition for healthcare between covid and other health conditions. E.g. how is our measles vaccination programme going with the concentration covid? Who gets the ICU bed – a covid patient or someone with a heart attack? Who gets a bed in the general ward – a person needing "elective" surgery or a covid patient?

          And until the magic 90% vaccination level is reached, what are the options for those who are at serious risk of a bad outcome who cannot be vaccinated? Home detention?

          This game of covid whack-a-mole feels way too soon.

          • Andre 1.5.1.3.1
            5 October 2021 at 11:40 am

            Anecdotally, yes, delivering measles and other childhood vaccinations to hesitant populations has gotten harder with all the publicity around covid vaccinations. Hesitants have become more hesitant, needing a lot more skilled practitioner time to overcome the hesitancy, and failures to overcome the hesitancy have become more frequent. As well as covid vaccination demand for the general population taking up a lot of that skilled practitioner time.

            From what I'm hearing from my contacts on the frontline, the amount of effort needed to get some people to accept basic health care services is appalling. Various people make careers out of whining that services to their special interest groups are under-resourced, but what I'm hearing makes it look much more like it's a case of people choosing to be difficult so that vastly more resources are needed to achieve a given result. It's less an under-resourcing issue than it is a case of difficult arseholes choosing to be resource-wasteful.

            As for alternatives to Pfizer for those at risk of anaphylaxis from the PEG in the Pfizer, or males aged 12-35ish with histories of heart problems, the Janssen/J&J and AstraZeneca vaccines are approved by Medsafe. But I haven't heard of any arriving here and being made available.

            They also have the option of looking at the data and seeing that almost all cases of the severe and scary reactions can be treated safely and don't cause long-term harms. That would be an awfully brave call on their part, and I salute those that make that choice knowing they could be in for a rough few days to months if they win the bad-luck lotto.

            Immunocompromised people (who are commonly contraindicated for other vaccines) can safely get the Pfizer vaccine. It's just much less likely to do them much good. That's because they're immunocompromised, ie their immune aren't working at all, or just not very well. So sadly, while covid is ripping through a population, yes they will need to protect themselves by whatever other means they can, including home detention.

            • Cricklewood 1.5.1.3.1.1
              5 October 2021 at 12:35 pm

              Certainly there's a chunk of people who aren't keen on an mrna vaccine, offering alternates like Sinofarm etc would I suspect would be worth a few percent… seems odd we havent done that…

              Wonder if govt signed up to an 'exclusive' period with Pfizer to get a better price…

            • Janet 1.5.1.3.1.2
              5 October 2021 at 12:44 pm

              " but what I'm hearing makes it look much more like it's a case of people choosing to be difficult so that vastly more resources are needed to achieve a given result." I think so too. The Asian population in NZ has the highest vaccination rate they did not need "pandering" to. Lets hope our lowest vaccinated ethnic group is not hanging out for what they are doing in Switzerland . Paying each person who comes forward for vaccination SF50.00 now to lift the overall rate.

            • miravox 1.5.1.3.1.3
              5 October 2021 at 1:03 pm

              "I'm hearing makes it look much more like it's a case of people choosing to be difficult so that vastly more resources are needed to achieve a given result."

              This reads like you've never had to deal with health practitioners who've ever treated you like sh*t, or simply not understood your needs due to such things as language barriers or preconceived notions about who you are and what your values are as soon as you walk in the door, or lived in a family with not a lot of resources to devote to healthcare, or have been brought up to leave the option of seeking healthcare until it's a last resort, or who have restrictions on movement due to coercion and control in the family, etc., etc.

              And that's not even counting the people who have been misled about health solutions by charlatans (often people more susceptible to such things by the issues above).

              And yes, immune-compromised people (like myself) must take more precautions, which is one of the reasons I would prefer leaving lowering alert levels until vaccination levels.

              There have not been many reassurances that the health system will be able to cope with a large outbreak, which is my main objection to this so-called plan.

              This exiting of the elimination strategy feels rushed and haphazard to me.

            • georgecom 1.5.1.3.1.4
              5 October 2021 at 2:58 pm

              As for alternatives to Pfizer for those at risk of anaphylaxis from the PEG in the Pfizer, or males aged 12-35ish with histories of heart problems, the Janssen/J&J and AstraZeneca vaccines are approved by Medsafe. But I haven't heard of any arriving here and being made available.

              similar question I have had. Looks like AZ won't be coming to NZ anytime soon, my pick is we will divert our orders across pacific countries et al to assist with their vaccination struggles. J&J is slated to arrive between now and christmas. My own view is as well as those who cannot or do not want to take a pfizer dose getting it, also make it quite widely available for the harder to reach populations – remote, homeless, itinerant, the yeah/nahers etc. Give people the option of pfizer of J&J, explain J&J is a good vaccine but offers lower overall protection. If they choose to commit to 2 shots get pfizer. If they are a bit yeah/nah about it and are happy with J&J job done. They have a good level of protection, are unlikely to end up in hospital and count toward the 90%.

              Argentina are using the Cansino vaccine (1 shot) for harder to reach populations. The US did the same with J&J.

          • Anne 1.5.1.3.2
            5 October 2021 at 12:00 pm

            …what are the options for those who are at serious risk of a bad outcome who cannot be vaccinated? Home detention?

            All the more reason why everyone who can be vaccinated is vaccinated to safeguard the immunocompromised and make it possible for them to move about freely without fear of infection. If they are unfortunate enough to become infected they would be given priority treatment. That is a given.

            • miravox 1.5.1.3.2.1
              5 October 2021 at 12:47 pm

              Immune-compromised people can often be vaccinated. The problem is the vaccine doesn't necessarily work so well. People with some allergies are possibly more at risk of not being able to be vaccinated.

              My issue is not whether people should just go and get vaccinated. It's that we're dropping down the alert levels now – before there has even been a chance for everyone who can be vaccinated to get vaccinated. So, as an fully-vaccinated immune-compromised person with a vaccination that is possibly not adequate, I'd feel much safer if we left the opening up until the vaccination levels were up.

              • Patricia Bremner …
                5 October 2021 at 2:40 pm

                I thought it was a shrewd move to allow some of the steam out of the lock down kettle.

                Grandchildren able to see Grandparents in a picnic situation. Lone people allowed to meet with family etc. It is all outside, but would be a life line for those locked down on their todd 7 weeks is a long time.

                The levels in all other ways have not changed except more children may attend day care where it is physically possible.

                It is a terrifying realization that we need to transition, but depending where you live most services are available on line, and also now one other bubble can help someone and meet on the outdoor furniture, or steps for a distanced catch-up.

                As Bloomfield says 4 to 8 weeks more of the L3 depending on variables, and that they will be guided by vaccination levels. This is so much better than Australia where it was announced one week and implemented the next. Now that was awful, and lives are being lost every day and health systems pressured in NSW and Victoria.

                We went to buy a piece of electronic equipment this morning. The shop was set up brilliantly, and the staff were great. A Kiwi business. Everyone was wearing masks. I thought those people are at risk every day, but if we are fully vaccinated and masked up, chances are reduced significantly.

                It will never be as it was except for the risk takers….. and they have been warned the virus will eventually find them. However I think the PM could get all Sector Leaders MPs and influencers to front up bit at a time and do a sell on platforms which reach the people in their areas.

                Being judgemental and lifestyle critical just divides us when we need more strategies to connect and convince. Most Gang people I met when teaching wanted a better future for their children. Everyone thrives on hope, and endless lockdowns kill hope for some. Naming and blaming divides us and goes against a common goal. imo.

                I am not starry eyed, and know reaching the black economy and the lawless will be extra difficult, but we need to keep reaching out through their trusted people. Even vaccinating half of them would be an improvement in the odds.

                • miravox …
                  5 October 2021 at 6:14 pm

                  Thank you for your lovely reply.

                  I understand what you're saying. My concerns go back to the decision to step down to Level 3. We all have reckons and mine is that another week or two in L4 would have had us through this outbreak. As it is now, we have that really tricky situation for people who are vulnerable with not a high enough level of vaccinations. Hopefully we'll all live with the decision and the cases will go down and we'll get 90% vaccinations within weeks. But I struggle to see it.

    • McFlock 1.6
      5 October 2021 at 2:22 pm

      I haven't seen much change in the L3 conditions or circumstances for application. The area under L3 seems to have expanded. Where's the surrender?

      • Jenny How to get there 1.6.1
        5 October 2021 at 3:42 pm

        McFlock

        5 October 2021 at 2:22 pm

        …..Where's the surrender?

        Wiles 'gutted' COVID restrictions being eased

        Mark Quinlivan – Newshub, 4 hrs ago

        An infectious diseases expert says she's "gutted" COVID-19 restrictions are going to ease, with community transmission still evident in Auckland.

        …..suppress the virus rather than get to zero-COVID is disappointing.

        'We've lost level 1 now': Wiles 'gutted' COVID restrictions being eased (msn.com)

        New Zealand gives in: How international media sees the Covid-19 strategy

        RNZ – 3 hrs ago

        New Zealand gave in on Monday, the government finally acknowledging it could not stop the spread of Delta, as others did long ago, according to international media coverage…..

        ….Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern's announcement of a three-stage roadmap to ease level 3 restrictions in Auckland marked a move away from the elimination strategy.

        ….Much of the overseas reporting on New Zealand's easing of Covid-19 restrictions despite community cases said the government had finally acknowledged something most others had done long ago.

        New Zealand abandoned its zero-Covid ambitions the New York Times…..

        ….For a year and a half, New Zealand had pursued a strategy of "Covid zero," closing its borders and quickly enforcing lockdowns to keep the coronavirus in check, a policy it maintained even as other Asia-Pacific countries transitioned to coexisting with the viral threat, it said.

        New Zealand gives in: How international media sees the Covid-19 strategy (msn.com)

        Red Alert:

        Surrendering to the virus

        http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2021/10/surrendering-to-virus.html

        • McFlock 1.6.1.1
          5 October 2021 at 3:54 pm

          So what is the actual easing? Some bubble-mixing is allowed. How does that impact the current outbreak?

          The MSM can fuck off with their "gives in" editorialising without actually explaining how this thing puts us on the path of NSW-level infections, and that's what "giving in" really is.

        • McFlock 1.6.1.2
          5 October 2021 at 3:58 pm

          This is why media takes can go get fucked. What are the odds that the media outlets screaming "surrender" include the one actively touting the Mental Health Foundation to make statements against lockdowns because they harm people's mental health.

    • Treetop 1.7
      5 October 2021 at 4:58 pm

      The border was always going to be how the Delta strain entered the country. Had it been mandatory that being double vaccinated when entering NZ this probably would not have stopped an outbreak. It was always going to be when and not if.

  2. Gezza 2
    5 October 2021 at 6:53 am

    User-testing the new stream-clearing waders

    View post on imgur.com

      • Gezza 2.1.1
        5 October 2021 at 7:21 am

        So glad to see the end of plastic supermarket shopping bags, dv.

        After every really solid-rainy wet day or two, when the stream gets into flood (the catchment area includes farmed & forested hills to my East, South, & West) the foliage on both stream banks would get covered in bloody shredded plastic bags, spoiling my pristine views.

        Even now, after we had two days of rain & the stream rose by 4 m into a roaring brown torrent one might not have survived if one accidentally fell in, the bushes are once again covered in shredded blimmin bags.

        God knows where they all come from. Waiting for a nice sunny day when the stream’s gone down enuf that it’s safe to wade to get in there again with my trusty rake to reach up & pull the bags out of the blackberry & other bushes.

        • McFlock 2.1.1.1
          5 October 2021 at 2:29 pm

          There's not an official or unofficial dump site upstream, maybe? Like the one on the West Coast that had to get the army to clean up?

          But yeah, I'm a city boy and am still glad to see the back of those damned supermarket bags. Such a blight.

          • Gezza 2.1.1.1.1
            5 October 2021 at 8:47 pm

            No. The nearest official dump site's at Spicer Valley, in Porirua – north of here. It's a helluva long way west from my stream.

            I really think these are just bags blown along the streets and/or left in the forest, that have found their way into tributaries. Lots of rain probably just washes them into the stream.

    • Patricia Bremner 2.2
      5 October 2021 at 2:52 pm

      Dedicationyessmiley

    • Shanreagh 3.1
      5 October 2021 at 10:53 am

      I check that site most days and also the Herman Cain Award site. The memes used are universal. The sites are confronting both from the incredible naivety shown by the anti vaxxers and also the comments from pro-vaxxers can be tough as well.

      There are common themes in the US: Southern states, Bible Belt locations, fundamentalist Christian, pro Trump, etc etc.

      Very sad some of the stories. Ivermectin use is rife, also zinc and Vit C. Many are overweight and strangely many of the men sport beards or goatees though that is probably a 'down-home in the US' feature though some commenters have wondered if beards can trap aerosolised Covid particles? These people are not mask wearers.

      There is a very powerful article by an Edmonton ICU specialist about the progression of Covid through the body. Usually by the time there is trouble breathing the virus has left and so all the Ivermectin in the world will not help. The trouble breathing is a later stage. This may be useful if we are now looking at a run on hospitals and increased use of ventilators.

      https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1443577158023073796.html

      PS We had a post from a TSer that staff of a catering firm here in NZ have exhibited anti vaxx sentiments and mentions a few of the memes/themes. As said these are universal and show up in the lists on FB etc of fervent anti vaxxers who later die from Covid.

      • dv 3.1.1
        5 October 2021 at 11:00 am

        A cafe in Collingwood, Takaka is hiring ONLY unvaxed, and making Vaxed customers sit out side.

        https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/126572618/golden-bay-cafe-hiring-only-unvaccinated-workers-makes-vaccinated-customers-sit-outside

        • Shanreagh 3.1.1.1
          5 October 2021 at 11:14 am

          Yes, sadly. I check the sites as I used to respond to counter anti vaxx bull kaka where I saw it (taking a break from it for a couple of days as it is mind numbing/dumbing)

          I am hopeful that:

          if the likes of AirNZ hold the line for overseas travel, and

          vaccination passports are able to happen, despite M_S knowledge of 50 lawyers waiting to take them down.

          Perhaps these 'mandates' may encourage more to vaccinate.

          • Cricklewood 3.1.1.1.1
            5 October 2021 at 12:57 pm

            I dont think it's going to be overly effective so long as other airlines only require a negative test prior to travel leaving options for the no vax group and lets face it people that can afford international holidays arnt in the hard to reach categories

        • Tricledrown 3.1.1.2
          5 October 2021 at 1:42 pm

          How dumb is that it looks like the antivax brigade are going to wipe themselves out.

          • georgecom 3.1.1.2.1
            5 October 2021 at 2:38 pm

            yup, good luck to that bloke and his staff acquiring natural immunity. heck of a silly way to get immunity I think, a bit risky. But oh well. It's almost 2 hours by ambulance from Takaka to Nelson hospital.

            On the subject of anyone who subscribes to the views of the Self Reverent brian tamaki. There is a saying amongst christians "there are no unbelievers in a rubber life raft". Likewise, there are no covid deniers or anti vaxxers in a covid-19 ICU bed.

            Best take steps to minimise your chance of not getting to that point.

        • McFlock 3.1.1.3
          5 October 2021 at 2:30 pm

          Someone's hoping to get oppressed by the state, by the look. Won't work with the cops. Might be an OSH issue though…

  4. Gezza 4
    5 October 2021 at 9:28 am

    Hey, Patricia

    She's back this morning. Definitely an (uncommon) Common Moorhen.

    View post on imgur.com

    Looks like she likes my area of the stream. Cool.

    • Drowsy M. Kram 4.1
      5 October 2021 at 9:45 am

      You can tell by the way they use their waddle… nice clear image, and stream.
      Never thought of them as feral – escapees often appear relatively unwary of humans.

      Feral Muscovy ducks often rely on hand-outs from humans.
      https://nzbirdsonline.org.nz/species/muscovy-duck

      • Gezza 4.1.1
        5 October 2021 at 6:03 pm

        Good spotting, Drowsy. 👍🏼

        Only just clicked on your link.

        Have now corrected my misidentification to Patricia below.

        Cheers
        Gezza

    • Patricia Bremner 4.2
      5 October 2021 at 2:58 pm

      She? is beautiful and a very healthy morehen.
      The word is out in birdville, "There is a great stream with a great guardian…" Cheers Gezza.

      • Gezza 4.2.1
        5 October 2021 at 5:39 pm

        Aww, shucks. ❤️ 👍🏼

        They’re a rail, like the pūkeko. Much bigger-boned than the pooks tho.

        Dunno why, I just assumed it’s a “she”. Seems to be an exceptionally placid type of waterbird.
        ……………………………………

        “Behaviour and ecology

        Most common moorhen populations are sedentary, but northern populations exposed to severe winter conditions are migratory. They breed as territorial pairs during the spring, nesting in reedbeds on rivers and ponds. They are largely solitary throughout the year, but form feeding groups of up to 30 during the winter.

        Food

        Common moorhens are omnivorous, consuming a wide variety of plants and small water creatures.” – NZ Birds Online
        ……………………………………

        Appears they are like nga pūkeko in that cocks & hens have the same colour plumage, so you can’t tell the sexes apart easily by their feather colour patterns – as you can with mallard drakes & hens, and with, say paradise shelducks, blackbird cocks & hens etc. .

        • Patricia Bremner 4.2.1.1
          5 October 2021 at 5:58 pm

          Probably hardy like our pukeko. Hope we don't get Ibis here though.. they are the rats of the bird world like pigeons in the park . Aussie horror poos everywhere is not afraid and dirty as.

      • Gezza 4.2.2
        5 October 2021 at 6:00 pm

        Whoopsie. 😰

        Hey Patricia, I just clicked on Drowsy’s NZ Birds link above.

        I’m wrong. It’s not an unusual coloured moorhen – it’s very DEFINITELY a Muscovy Duck. And it’s twice as big as nearby Mallard drakes, so it’s a placid male.

        …………………………………..

        Extract:
        “Identification:
        Muscovy ducks are large, goose-like ducks with highly variable plumage. Most New Zealand birds are either plain white or pied. Pied birds have a green sheen on their dark feathers. Birds with grey and brown colouring may also be present. A small crest may be raised when birds are alarmed. The bill is either pink-and-blackish, or entirely pink, and the base is surrounded by bright red caruncles. They have relatively short legs, [my specimen above had very pale orange legs, seen paddling away – Gez] & are less mobile on land than other ducks.

        The legs and feet are partially or entirely pale orange in colour, and the toes have long, sharp claws. The male is much larger than the female, and can weigh over twice as much.

        Voice: Generally silent or quiet. The female makes a soft quacking sound; the male makes puffing and hissing noises.

        Similar species: Entirely white birds bear some resemblance to white domestic forms of mallards, and to male greylag geese, but are distinguishable by the red caruncles and body shape. Pied birds are unmistakable. Muscovy ducks can hybridise with mallards; hybrids are highly variable in plumage and have features of both parent species.”

  5. weka 5
    5 October 2021 at 9:40 am

    twitter, and everyone, trolling FB (there’s a major FB and WhatsApp outage globally)

  6. joe90 6
    5 October 2021 at 10:21 am

    But NZ has long rationed health care.

    /

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 6.1
      5 October 2021 at 2:50 pm

      Yep, and rationing healthcare is moronic because it increases costs in the long run, never mind the human suffering.

      Great heads up on the latest on Covid vs Kidneys – thanks, sounds terrible though!

  7. Reality 7
    5 October 2021 at 10:35 am

    So tired of moaning and whining from media, hospitality, businesses. The enormous pressure from these sectors has been constant for 18 months. The Government had been under huge pressure to open up our bubble to Australia. That didn't last long. Even more pressure lately so they are now loosening a little and they still complain. Act wants an end goal (as if anything like that can be predicted accurately with Delta – it's not like a broken leg that can mostly be healed in 6-8 weeks). Businesses don't seem to grasp that if hundreds or thousands of people contract the virus their businesses will be even more precarious. Businesses fail even in normal times.

    Everyone is finding it hard. But public health surely must be the first priority. If people are unable to show common sense and effort and get vaccinated life will be even harder if the virus takes off and is rampant everywhere.

    All praise to Jacinda for doing the very best she can in very difficult times. And she still came on Seven Sharp with a smile. Rather her than Judith Collins sniping and snarling.

    Fair and balanced commentary is fine but all whining and carping is worse than the actual restrictions.

    • AB 7.1
      5 October 2021 at 11:29 am

      Aye – it's enough to turn anyone into a misanthrope watching this circus of collective derangement. People demanding under pandemic conditions that they have three contradictory things at the same time: freedom, safety and certainty.

    • Stephen D 7.2
      5 October 2021 at 11:55 am

      Spot on R.

      I can't decide if the MSM is just mischief making or really are so thick, they can't follow what the PM was saying. Hopefully, for all our sakes, the former.

    • Treetop 7.3
      5 October 2021 at 5:11 pm

      The government have looked at Covid from every angle. Just heard on RNZ that lockdowns would occur if the vaccine did not respond to a new variant.

      There is no calendar date for the path way out of Covid because the path way out cannot be determined by any political party.

  8. dv 8
    5 October 2021 at 10:53 am

    FBook back!!

    Not quite, can’t post!!

  9. Tricledrown 9
    5 October 2021 at 10:59 am

    Hopefully now those hesitant take up the free vaccination. Except Tamaki and Billy tk.

  10. Andre 10
    5 October 2021 at 11:04 am

    There are two things I want to see from the government right now, and both are issues that it's been obvious for a long time that they would need addressing:

    What is the actual plan to lift vaccination rates to the levels needed to not have widespread needless suffering and deaths? (the rate being tossed around is 90% of eligibles, which is a long long way from the under 80% of eligibles we're at right now)

    What is the actual plan for when our health system gets overwhelmed by (mostly unvaccinated) covid patients?

    Mr Robertson, your glib mealy mouthed pabulum that vaccine mandates are not the New Zealand way is fkn pathetic when you don't immediately offer an alternative credible plan. But you didn't even offer a plan completely lacking in credibility, you offered nothing, nada , zip, bupkis, just some really vague indefinite muttering about maybe vaccine certificates. Details are needed now, actually, three weeks ago at least. Just saying we desperately need people to get vaccinated without also announcing measures to help make that happen isn't reassuring, it's fkn infuriating.

    Mr Robertson, a glib assurance that New Zealand has hospital capacity to handle the outbreak now is frankly fkn infuriating, when it's obvious to a blind man with his Airpods turned up to 11 that we are very likely facing a flood of (mostly unvaccinated) covid patients. It's not reassuring, it makes you look like you're suffering a truly frightening degree of cluelessness.

    • JanM 10.1
      5 October 2021 at 11:28 am

      And if you were the boss of everything what would you do?

      • Andre 10.1.1
        5 October 2021 at 11:52 am

        I would enact legislation making it clear that it's totally legitimate and expected to add "no jab, no job" policies to existing employment contracts. On health and safety grounds. And mandate "no jab, no job" policies for all employees funded by the government, such as teachers, healthcare workers, government departments such as WINZ …

        I would write legislation making it clear that "no jab, no entry" policies are legal and expected for all private businesses and events that may have random Kim Public entering. Pubs, restaurants, theatres, concerts, supermarkets, petrol station shops, hardware stores, gyms, the lot.

        I would write legislation for healthcare providers that when resources are overloaded and triaging is needed, unvaccinated covid patients are at the top of the list to be triaged out. This situation is well outside of what's anticipated in developing normal triaging guidelines, and the appropriate response is a community political consideration, not a routine medical ethics one.

        • Ad 10.1.1.1
          5 October 2021 at 1:20 pm

          It's just non-courageous of this government to curtail so many broad human rights, but then not mandate vaccinations as a specific further human right discrimination.

          It is also non-courageous not to specifically praise some regions and towns putting their vaccination rates close to 90%, yet not specifically chastise those DHB's with low numbers. This is already well and truly a regional approach to disease control. Time to do the same with prevention.

        • McFlock 10.1.1.2
          5 October 2021 at 2:40 pm

          So that handles the working people. What about the people in emergency housing, or out of the regular economy?

          Because that's the problem we seem to have at the moment: people poorly-served or abused by the state are suddenly expected to not beware the state bearing gifts?

          I suspect the true path to 90% is to do similar to what statsnz used to do with the census prior to 2018: physically reach out to folk like the people under bridges, in random places, the often overlooked.

          edit: plus start throwing the OSH violations around at ~85%, just to clean up the working “hesitant”

          • Andre 10.1.1.2.1
            5 October 2021 at 5:11 pm

            Getting all the working people and those that want to participate in other stuff like events is a useful start. Since all the people whose attitudes and opinions I know anything about fall into that broad group, there's a teeny-tiny chance my reckons about what might move them is worth just slightly more than jack-shit.

            When it comes to those outside the regular economy and other special cases, I'd leave that to those whose job it is. Hopefully they have some actual expertise to come up with good workable ideas. All I'd come up with is stuff like blowguns and spring-loaded syringes with GPS trackers attached and bounties paid for every successful darting.

            • McFlock 10.1.1.2.1.1
              5 October 2021 at 5:27 pm

              Fair call.

              This pandemic really does seem to have highlighted why folks have been banging on about equity for decades: we essentially have two populations, one generally well served by the health system, (albeit with some biases and wait times), andthe other basically rarely interacts with the state once they leave school, and those interactions are usually bad for the person.

              And frankly, the bigger group yet to be fully included in the anti-covid effort is the latter group, from what I can see.

  11. Sabine 11
    5 October 2021 at 11:12 am

    young dude beating up a young women outside my shop.

    took down rego/car called the police.

    i am so over this shit. so very much over it.

  12. Stephen D 12
    5 October 2021 at 11:17 am

    For all those whiners who complain that the government isn’t governing, just dealing with COVID, here’s something else to complain about.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/126581083/government-launches-major-review-of-electoral-law-to-include-voting-age-and-party-funding

    Love to see a 4 year term, 3/4% for a seat , and get rid of the overhang.

    • dv 12.1
      5 October 2021 at 11:37 am

      .75% or 3 to 4%?

    • Ad 12.2
      5 October 2021 at 1:14 pm

      It's a review. Due out some time in 2023 – election year.

      A few ideas may get into party manifestos, but that's it.

      This government are generating a biomass factory of reviews. Very little else occurs beyond that.

      • observer 12.2.1
        5 October 2021 at 1:53 pm

        Very little else occurs beyond that.

        Translation: "I can't remember or be bothered to look it up, so it never happened."

        It's an absurd claim, not even close to reality, You could start with this year's Budget. Anything happen?

        • Ad 12.2.1.1
          5 October 2021 at 3:21 pm

          Let's see. Budget 2021. Such as they were.

          More cochlear implants. Fail.

          $200 million tourism sector support. Got worse instead of better. Still no plan. Maybe next budget.

          $300 million New Zealand Green Investment Finance. One useful project which was the Fletchers' tyres-burnt-for-cement plant. Little else.

          Main benefit rates increasing by between $32 and $55. First part has happened.

          $44 million digital training for small businesses. Small though it was, not yet spent.

          $1.3 billion vaccine rollout. Going fine.

          $3.8 billion for Housing Acceleration Fund. Medium term as projects evolve.

          $225 million for Māori Health Authority. Not yet formed beyond what their Board members are. No scope.

          Social Unemployment Insurance Scheme. Inert after 2 terms.

          Then apart from Budget 2021 you have the bigger ones:

          Re-nationalising health boards. No scope, only Boards have been named. Several more years to land, let alone make improvements to citizens.

          Resource Management Act replacement bills. Working drafts out. Maybe June 2022?

          Climate carbon budget. Maybe going into Treasury for Budget 2022.

          Water reforms. Life support.

          Transport. Amounts to gradual network improvements.

          Public media reform. Dead.

          Immigration reform. An urgent fix announced recently, which will still take years to process tens of thousands. Otherwise nah.

          Farming sustainability initiatives. Moribund.

          Control of organised crime. Going backwards.

          International affairs. Nothing not even an effort to rebuild PIF.

    • Johnr 12.3
      5 October 2021 at 1:29 pm

      I consider that we have a six year term now. 3 plus 3, sort of a right of renewal like a lease. A govt only lasting 3 years would be pretty awful and deserving to be thrown out. Another year in that case would be more detrimental to the country.

    • AB 12.4
      5 October 2021 at 5:58 pm

      Would like to see funding limited to named individuals only and set at a fairly low percentage of the median wage – with political parties' shortfalls in operating budgets made up from state funding via some performance-based formula. Won't happen though – it would draw heavy media and establishment fire as Helen Clark found out. Plus Labour is riding pretty high, the large donations are probably coming, and they may be happy to be the party of the more moderate business sector, thereby squatting in National's territory.

      In other areas – coat-tailing needs to go, plus cautiously drop the threshold to 4% because 5% is anti-democratic but the system also needs to be crank-proof. I can't think of a simple way to prevent large parties gifting safe seats to a sub-threshold coalition partner. Removing coat-tailing minimises the harm caused by such cheating and preferential voting within electorates might help also. Getting rid of electorates altogether would solve the problem but is probably considered too radical to fly.

  13. Stephen D 13
    5 October 2021 at 11:53 am

    5% is too many. We do need to encourage participation in democracy. Whether 3% or 4% I haven't decided.

    There is the chance that at 3% the likes of Colin Craig or Winston Peters might make it into Parliament. If the people speak, then so be it.

  14. greywarshark 14
    5 October 2021 at 12:29 pm

    Comment on USA and its paths to plenty and prosperity for all ….

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/sunday/audio/2018814819/evan-osnos-greed-has-always-been-part-of-america-s-formula

    This man Osnos has written a book about usa called Wildlands…

    One point: The reason that happened is partly because the parties themselves and the people who are running for office began to put themselves above anything else.

    “And so, they're willing to take really horrifying steps against the country's overall interest in order to advance their position.

    • mac1 14.1
      5 October 2021 at 12:56 pm

      The alarming statistic in this article is the one about trust in government. Osnos says that in 1964 77% trusted the US government. In 2014 that had dropped to 18%. That must impact on Americans in so many ways.

    • Maurice 14.2
      5 October 2021 at 1:11 pm

      … and are they any different anywhere else in this World of Woe?

    • Ad 14.3
      5 October 2021 at 1:21 pm

      Not difficult to run a parallel history of New Zealand using the same framing.

  15. weka 15
    5 October 2021 at 1:14 pm

    Does anyone have a link to the NZ survey/research on who isn't vaccinated with breakdown by a lot of factors? Need it for a post. I saw it sometime in the past month, but don't know when the research was done.

  16. Whispering Kate 16
    5 October 2021 at 2:42 pm

    With the vaccine certificate coming out next month and the PM stating the country will not mandate vaccination certificates for supermarkets and pharmacies would it be too much to ask that they mandate days where the vaccinated can frequent these premises and provide a day a week which is available for non-vaccinated people to be able to do their food and pharmacy shopping.

    This way everybody is going to feel safer doing essential shopping. The vaccinated will have a better chance if they do get infected that it won't be too severe and the unvaccinated will not be doing any damage to the vaccinated who will be at home.

    Just my tuppence worth.

    • fender 16.1
      5 October 2021 at 3:19 pm

      Nice idea. I'd also like to know what should be done with the one hillbilly in my workplace who won't see sence and get himself vaccinated. All other staff (about 10 of us) are either fully vaccinated or awaiting our second shots.

    • Jimmy 16.2
      5 October 2021 at 3:25 pm

      If you are vaccinated, why would you worry about mixing with non vaccinated? It is the non vaccinated that are more likely to get sick or sicker?

      • McFlock 16.2.1
        5 October 2021 at 3:30 pm

        Because it can still be transmitted to them from a barely-affected me.

        And because there's still a non-trivial chance I could catch it off them, and even die.

        • Jimmy 16.2.1.1
          5 October 2021 at 5:04 pm

          I'm vaccinated and am not really worried about hanging around with non vaccinated people which is the reason I got vaccinated. They will be the one's that get sick surely and at worse case I will get mildly sick?

          • McFlock 16.2.1.1.1
            5 October 2021 at 5:16 pm

            Well, no, "worst case" is you die.

            Second worst case is they die.

            Third worst case is either of you gets severely ill and has chronic long term harm.

            Let me put it another way: back in the old days when infantry lined up against each other with spikes, the front rank had the highest mortality rate. The third rank had a much lower mortality rate. You're the dude going "I'm in the third rank, what do I care if there's a battle?"

            Lower risk does not equal zero risk, and from a population level 100% vax and no controls still might mean an overloaded healthcare system – so you if you or your unvaxed mate doesn't kill the other, you still die when there are no ventilators free after you have a car crash.

          • mauī 16.2.1.1.2
            5 October 2021 at 8:07 pm

            Exactly, and this was the general perception of vaccination pre-2020. The unvaccinated were scorned upon, but they didn't affect your life.

            Today they are still scorned upon, but now we have the insanity of their personal medical choices somehow affecting your life.

            • McFlock 16.2.1.1.2.1
              5 October 2021 at 8:51 pm

              Yeah, it's almost like people have figured out that your personal choices [deleted] can endanger them, too.

              [a step too far McFlock. Please make the political point without the nasty – weka]

              • weka …
                5 October 2021 at 9:58 pm

                mod note McFlock.

                • McFlock …
                  5 October 2021 at 10:22 pm

                  I'm sure getting covid because someone thinks triaging and vaccine passports in a pandemic is "apartheid" would be nastier than the pretty mild term I used.

                  Political and personal are not always different things.

                  • weka …
                    5 October 2021 at 10:52 pm

                    Mauī makes a political point, without the personalised nasty. You may not like the political point and you may personally feel offended or angry etc, but it's still different from using inflammatory language directed at the person you are talking to.

                    Feelings are running high. We're here for the long haul, and my thinking currently is that this is different from any other conversation we've had on TS. As you say, it is very personal. For all of us.

                    tl;dr, the moderation was basically to avert flamming.

                  • weka …
                    5 October 2021 at 10:57 pm

                    taking my mod hat off, I'm more concerned currently about the widening gap in NZ around belief than I am about covid. This is because I still trust Labour's plan and think it's largely on track. We need to focus on getting as many people vaccinated as possible, and that's what we are in fact doing.

                    That we might also create irreparable sociopolitical damage seems like a massive blindspot. Even if you don't care about the people you are hating on, strategically it's dumb. Think the next public health initiative that needs social cohesion at the 5m level, or even the next election. Or the waves of social, economic and political disruption that are coming with climate change and the eco crises. It's really not a good time for us to be upping the ante on ostracisation.

                    • McFlock …
                      6 October 2021 at 12:18 am

                      The dirty secret of "team of 5 million" is that it's never really been true.

                      Do we really think all act and national party supporters are on the elimination bandwagon? Hell no. Even if most of them are, that's still ~15% who don't believe or care that covid will kill people and will grudgingly (at best) comply with the dominant mood of the community.

                      Then there are the folks (who are hopefully only single-digit %) who believe the chip-level theories and actively work to spread that harm.

                      If we need >90-95% to do something for the survival of significant numbers of people in the community, ostracism will be the last step before the necessary outright coercion. Not vax passport "coercion", real coercion.

                      I don't think covid will get us to that point, but it might be close.

                      The team of 5 million stuff is more "team of 3 million, with another million and a bit following along because it's easier, a few hundred thousand people who might not be enthusiastic about a plague but who are not to bothered about the concept (especially if it disproportionately hits poor, urban, and other euphemismed people), and another few thousand delusional fools".

      • Andre 16.2.2
        5 October 2021 at 3:46 pm

        Because getting a breakthrough covid case after vaccination is still a fucking nasty disease. Basically like the worst flu you've ever had.

        Mild, moderate and severe when referring to covid mean something different than normal usage. "Mild covid" means you weren't hospitalised. Moderate means you really need hospitalisation. Severe means intensive care, you'll be lucky to survive it and even luckier to not get long covid.

        https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/09/12/1036356773/i-got-a-mild-breakthrough-case-heres-what-i-wish-id-known

  17. Whispering Kate 17
    5 October 2021 at 3:50 pm

    I take it Jimmy you are not vaccinated. Vaccinated folk generally do not need to be hospitalised if they are infected which is a good thing. The virus is only seeking out the non-vaccinated and they will take up the most ICU valuable space, sparse as it is. Keeping the two separated is keeping the vaccinated hopefully free of becoming sick. The unvaccinated will only be infecting their own. Pretty obvious don't you think.

      • weka 17.1.1
        5 October 2021 at 4:21 pm

        So the people vaxxed at the start have waning immunity now?

        • Macro 17.1.1.1
          5 October 2021 at 5:34 pm

          First two paras of the link above

          Two doses of the Pfizer/BioNTech Covid vaccine are “highly effective” at preventing hospitalisations for at least six months, a large-scale study shows, but protection against infection nearly halves over the same period.

          Effectiveness against all Covid infections fell from 88% within a month of having two doses to 47% after six months, according to the research. However, effectiveness against hospitalisations remained high at 90% overall – and crucially across all variants, including delta.

          my bold

          • weka 17.1.1.1.1
            5 October 2021 at 5:53 pm

            thanks Macro, very interesting. Don't suppose you've come across long covid stats in that regard?

    • Jimmy 17.2
      5 October 2021 at 5:08 pm

      Yes I am vaccinated….which is why I cant understand why people are treating the non vaxed as leppers?

      As I've said above now that I'm vaccinated it doesn't worry me if I am next to a person that is not vaccinated. As you state: "The unvaccinated will only be infecting their own. Pretty obvious don't you think." …..so I don't need to worry?

      • Andre 17.2.1
        5 October 2021 at 5:36 pm

        There are still enough unvaccinated that when covid really gets loose, the sheer numbers of covid patients will break our medical system.

        Now, I'm really not bothered about the outcome for those unvaccinated covid patients. Y’know, consequences of choices and all that.

        But I am really concerned about the effect that will have on the staff in our medical system. I have a cousin and her husband that are hospital doctors in the US. It'll be a miracle if they come out of what they're going through more or less psychologically and physically intact.

        I am also really concerned about the effect on other people with medical needs when our medical system is broken by unvaccinated covid patients. The effects on them are going to be fkn brutal.

        That's why our government takes a cup of cement and harden right up to wilfully unvaccinated covid patients in order to protect our medical staff and our other people with involuntary medical needs

        • Stuart Munro 17.2.1.1
          5 October 2021 at 7:51 pm

          Should we be training medical volunteers to take up the slack if there's a crunch?

          I know they can't just rock in and do everything, but in a crisis they might do some good.

  18. Patricia Bremner 18
    5 October 2021 at 4:06 pm

    A 63 year old man is facing court on Tuesday, over the gathering in the Domain. Others may also face charges.

  19. Ad 19
    5 October 2021 at 4:20 pm

    Brian Tamaki gets a Court summons for his rally.

    It will be pretty hard for Brian Tamaki to get out of this as a conviction since he specifically met with the Police before the rally:

    https://www.tvnz.co.nz/content/tvnz/onenews/story/2021/10/05/arrest-protest.html

    Love to see him put up a BORA defence, and then appeal it. Someone has to.

  20. Jenny How to get there 20
    5 October 2021 at 4:26 pm

    John Key keeps this up, he may have to join that other failed head of state to get himself banned from Facebook for making false and misleading claims.

    COVID-19: Pfizer shuts down Sir John Key's claim Government could have bought vaccines earlier 'for $40 million more' (newshub.co.nz)

  21. DS 21
    5 October 2021 at 5:34 pm

    It's not Surrender, but I do think it is Dicing With Death.

    The root problem is that alert levels don't work when the disease is circulating among criminal gangs – who don't obey lockdown, and who lie to contact tracers. The alert levels are really about trying to keep everyone else safe.

    The Government needs to be aggressively pushing vaccine mandates, and I'm worried things are starting to drift, but there's nothing in the current line that suggests we still aren't aiming to (eventually) mop up this outbreak. We certainly aren't tending towards NSW or Victoria, at least not yet. So long as we keep Auckland isolated and the international border closed, we can do this.

    (Also, **** the media. Bunch of ****ing Lord Haw Haws).

    • Patricia Bremner 21.1
      5 October 2021 at 6:25 pm

      yes

    • Anne 21.2
      5 October 2021 at 6:54 pm

      Could we Aucklanders please be allowed to go to the barbers and hairdressers. crying

      • Andre 21.2.1
        5 October 2021 at 7:03 pm

        Since it's now fairly warm, I'm seriously thinking full chrome-dome. That should be fairly easy to do at home.

    • SPC 21.3
      5 October 2021 at 7:24 pm

      I do not see a problem with vaccinated Kiwis returning to home isolation in Auckland (close to zero risk of needing hospitalisation and it will be at Level 3), what we have left to protect is the wider Level 2 area.

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