Open mike 06/02/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, February 6th, 2022 - 266 comments
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266 comments on “Open mike 06/02/2022 ”

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  1. Dennis Frank 1
    6 February 2022 at 6:22 am

    Trump had to pivot at warp speed: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/feb/05/donald-trump-vaccine-republicans-operation-warp-speed

    She is fiercely loyal to Donald Trump. But when the former US president came to her home city and praised coronavirus vaccines, Flora Moore did something she never thought possible. She booed him. “He heard us loud and clear because the Amway Center was packed. We let him know ‘no’ and a couple of us even hollered out, ‘It’s killing people!’”

    There is no scientific basis to the claim that the vaccines are killing people. In fact, they have demonstrably saved thousands of lives. But Moore is indicative of the extreme anti-vaccine sentiment consuming the base of the Republican party – a monster that Trump himself can no longer control.

    It's a surprise that the antivax belief-system has captured the Republican base despite Trump's attempt to persuade them to accept traditional medicine. When a crowd of true-believers boos their narcissist leader you know he'll detect the mortal threat to his public standing immediately. Thus the warp-speed pivot.

    Trump appears to have heeded the shift and recalibrated. At a rally in Conroe, Texas, last Saturday, where anti-vaccine views were again rampant, he channeled the crowd’s anger towards Biden’s mandate for federal government workers (a similar mandate for businesses was rejected by the supreme court). “It is time for the American people to declare independence from every last Covid mandate,” Trump said to cheers. “We have to tell this band of hypocrites, tyrants and racists that we’re done with having them control our lives, mess with our children and close our businesses. We’re moving on from Covid.”

    He then added briskly: “We did a great job. Operation Warp Speed has been praised by everybody but it’s now time to move on.” Notably in the remarks he did not use the word “vaccines” at all. It was a pivot that appeared to acknowledge the political threat and it is enough to satisfy voters such as Moore.

    • Peter 1.1
      6 February 2022 at 7:51 am

      The anti-vaccine thing pictured in Moore is sort of incidental while being absolutely elemental.

      It is an example of the dumbness of Trump's rabid rump support. (Did he have them chanting "Lock her up!" at his latest rallies?)

      Trump is not the woman's God because he's not on some crazed anti-vaxx campaign? As they say, "Jesus, wept."

    • Bearded Git 1.2
      6 February 2022 at 10:00 am

      Dennis…I've so enjoyed TS being a largely Trump-free zone since the electorate turfed him out (just).

      Could we keep it that way for a while please-at least until much closer to the election? He has already had way too much attention.

      • Shanreagh 1.2.1
        6 February 2022 at 10:27 am

        BG Agree……I am only really interested to see him slip, sliming around in relation to the Insurrection, if that happens…..

        He will have undoubtedly have scholarly people analysing his time as President and his latest crazy utterances….we don't have to be the ones to do it.

        Most of are already aware of the disconnect between his anti vaxx followers and his vaxxed status.

  2. Dennis Frank 2
    6 February 2022 at 7:18 am

    There's two signals in the media this morning pointing to the hinge for Treaty relations this year: the principle of co-governance.

    First, we have the defender of the old left: https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2022/02/04/something-entirely-different-why-co-governance-is-a-very-bad-idea/

    Second, there's a report on Labour's attempt to be progressive: https://www.newsroom.co.nz/health–science/by-maori-for-maori-ideas-hit-funding-brick-wall

    Inevitably, Labour will come across as schizoid. Labour dinosaurs will cling to the past as usual, and Labour progressives will labour at making progress. Notice how Labour has been trying to leak co-governance as framing – rather than proclaim it!

    Now this is sensible since proclaiming it will boost Seymour's profile as top neanderthal. Not only that, proclaiming it will give Luxon a sound platform as alt-defender of the status quo. Consequently, Labour dinosaurs will be casting their shifty wee eyes on the PM – who is half-conservative and half-progressive. They know they're really on the same side as Luxon & Seymour, yet wearing the red flag they must maintain their pretence at being progressive.

    So how will the PM present her dual stances on co-governance? Sensibly, she will prolong evasion of the necessity to take her stand as long as possible…

    • vto 2.1
      6 February 2022 at 7:48 am

      You correctly highlight the PM's avoidance on this issue Dennis..

      She is being shady and dodgy with her refusal to clearly expound what her government is wanting to do, and doing..

      And as mentioned when 3-waters came along, it is the nail in Labour's electoral coffin,. because so very many people see all of this despite Jacinda's sneaking.. and don't like it one bit..

      jacinda needs to explain

      lest defeat

      such a shame

    • Foreign waka 2.2
      6 February 2022 at 9:38 am

      Why not just be honest and split the country and have Maori have their own state. Self governance or sovereignty also means self reliability and responsibility to their whanau without any interference. I suspect, given that no one wants to pay taxes to support another state, the financial side of things will be very much separated too. Like a divorce if you will. It very much looks like that this is what the aim is all along and even the government is working towards it for all the policies and displays we see. The next election will see how many will feel betrayed – maybe on both sides. We now have muzzling tactics too taking hold so that is another telling point of being pinned in the corner.

      • Corey Humm 2.2.1
        6 February 2022 at 1:44 pm

        Because you can't have two states that share the same land borders, it's not like Quebec or Scotland where it'd just be split down the middle.

        Also Maori don't want that, if you talk to most Maori noone in my family or any Maori I've ever met wants a separate country or a separate name or a separate health authority…. Only upper middle class to rich Maori want that stuff cos it'll be run by upper middle class Kaupapa trickle downers that make Roger Douglas look like Bernie Sanders. noone wants it. Upper middle class white and upper middle class brown people want it, not the people at the bottom who are the statistics.
        This government just seems to want to make things look good statistically on paper or appear progressive. This isn’t going to address the causes of bad health outcomes.

        If you ask Maori want they want it's cheaper housing. I've never heard anyone say "we want a separate health service" and poor white people and poor Maori and poor everyone else will continue to do badly in health statistics because we're only addressing the symptoms not the causes of poor health services: poverty. Housing. High cost of living. Low wages.

        • Foreign waka 2.2.1.1
          6 February 2022 at 7:20 pm

          This is not what I get to hear in my environment and I am "just" an average person trying to make ends meet. And yes, nothing that has been proposed thus far will address the real causes, which incidentally is for a starter – education. Excellent education provides a different perspective of the world, its people and cultures and encourages curiosity and provides the discipline one needs to achieve dreams. Sorry to mention this, but we are talking about higher learning in the true academic sense. As long as Maori are being told that their lot is to do carvings and hakas, I am afraid to point out that those are 5 minutes goals. It is this promise of the false paradise that leaves people behind, creates frustration as many actually do what they been advised to do. This pent up frustration in turn leads to aggression, the human reaction to find fault. Give me a guess whose fault it will be? And why gangs have such great attraction, with people joining in droves.

          I personally think that this government has created more division with its bull in a porcelain shop approach than any other I have seen in 35 years I live in NZ. It is extremely disappointing that the Maori establishment is seemingly not much better. In fact it perpetrates a class system for its own people in my view. But then again, money, privilege and power is not linked to color, race or gender.

  3. Blazer 3
    6 February 2022 at 8:04 am

    Emotive mischief from Stuff reporter….Took the risks in a pandemic,could afford to travel….but…

    Pay up, grandma: Pensioners trapped overseas by Covid-19 hit with huge fines | Stuff.co.nz

    • Jester 3.1
      6 February 2022 at 10:43 am

      Pretty unfair IMO, the government penalizes her for not returning to NZ, when it is the government stopping her returning…..nice one!

      • Blazer 3.1.1
        6 February 2022 at 11:51 am

        Except these people are fully aware of the disruptions in travel arrangements that can occur with the pandemic, BEFORE they decide to take the …risk.

        • Jester 3.1.1.1
          6 February 2022 at 2:33 pm

          That's not a very kind and caring government. Aren't we all supposed to be kind and a team of 5m? She travelled to sell a business, it's not like she was just on a holiday by choice (as then I would not be as sympathetic). But I guess in your view (and the govt) even if you travel for a dying relative it's your own tough luck, as you can always watch them die via video call like this bloke.
          As per the comments on the Stuff article, seems like most think the woman has been pretty badly treated. I guess she wont be voting Labour.
          Auckland man watches his mother die in Ireland by video call after failing to get MIQ spot – NZ Herald

          • Blazer 3.1.1.1.1
            6 February 2022 at 3:19 pm

            What about the thousands of people who would love to have travelled for a myriad of reasons,but took the pragmatic approach,because of the obvious risks.

    • Shanreagh 3.2
      6 February 2022 at 10:54 am

      Agree Blazer. Surely we don't need to keep reading about these 'poor' people overseas now the borders are opening. "Poor' in quotes as it takes money in the bank to travel, even to Australia. So they had choices that some superannuitants could only dream about.

      Let them fight their battles on their return. They have options to take a case for a review but making a case in the court of public opinion will always get the public servant bashers on their side.

      Wah wah 'they are so cruel they should bend the legislation in my favour, even if I don't meet the requirements, this minute'

      They took a risk, there were clear, forseeable consequences to their decisions to travel in the midst of a pandemic.

      • Ed1 3.2.1
        6 February 2022 at 1:04 pm

        Assuming that all those people going overseas to see family, deal with sale of a business, etc, etc were "fully informed" is perhaps a long bow to draw. Certainly they lacked imagination, and did not anticipate the Omicron variant, just as if another variant emerges that will be seen as a failure of government to warn us . . .

        I suspect that we are being caught in a few places by the nit-picking increases in regulation National pushed through to reduce costs wherever possible; that were not well known, but which are now the law that a Govt Department must administer until the law changes – perhaps some more discretion is needed; but changing regulations on such matters is not a one-day task.

      • alwyn 3.2.2
        6 February 2022 at 6:29 pm

        I guess I am one of them. I would love to have travelled when the borders were open.

        However I took the pragmatic approach. I don't trust anything that this Government promises and that included the travel bubble letting us go to, and come back from, Australia. I never expected it to last and expected it to dumped with little or no warning.

        Turned out that I was right.

        • McFlock 3.2.2.1
          6 February 2022 at 6:34 pm

          Personally I viewed it like going to one of those destinations where everything can clock off at any moment, like Ukraine or Burkina Faso (seem to have regular coups there): Go at your own risk.

          It's not the government's fault the rest of the world is shit at infectious disease control.

        • Ed1 3.2.2.2
          6 February 2022 at 6:42 pm

          Advice was clear, you cannot rely on getting back. I cannot recall any promises.

        • Shanreagh 3.2.2.3
          6 February 2022 at 10:09 pm

          You were right Alwyn……join the clan of those who would have loved to have travelled but decided not too. I knew I hadn't enough money for anything to go wrong and it seemed to me that there was the chance of plenty going wrong. smiley

          • alwyn 3.2.2.3.1
            7 February 2022 at 11:17 am

            I take it that you, like me, is not a DJ? Or one of the Wiggles I suppose.

            They are important people and will always be looked after in the scramble for ways of entering the country.

  4. pat 4
    6 February 2022 at 8:09 am

    In the grand scheme of things it matters not to the plebs who is emperor (and court) what is important is that the plebs have the power to decide who should be emperor (and for how long)……the aristocrats are in a power struggle.

  5. Dennis Frank 5
    6 February 2022 at 8:10 am

    Divide & rule could be the strategy decided on by Labour's caucus, after being steered towards that by their Maori cabal.

    Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern and Māori-Crown Relations Minister Kelvin Davis are denying claims the border reopening decision was made without Māori consultation.

    Dr Donna Cormack from Te Rōpu Whakakaupapa Urutā – the National Māori Pandemic Group – said the plan was made without consultation with Māori, or consideration for their wellbeing.

    Kelvin Davis elaborated: "I just really dispute the calls from some groups in Māoridom that there hasn't been consultation, because even this week we've met with the Iwi chairs three times." The PM clarifies what he means: "our National Iwi Chairs Forum".

    The Waitangi Tribunal released a scathing ruling of the Government's response in December last year, saying Māori were put at risk, particularly due to the initial blanket approach to the vaccine rollout.

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/02/jacinda-ardern-kelvin-davis-deny-covid-19-border-reopening-decision-was-made-without-m-ori-consultation.html

    So if the Tribunal & National Māori Pandemic Group are part of the out-crowd, it makes one wonder if the Iwi chairs in the in-crowd with the Maori cabal are sufficiently representative of Maori. Is this just the old chiefly caste division brought up to date?? Something to reflect on – on Waitangi Day.

    The Treaty recognised chiefly status, mana, iwi & hapu interests and traditions. Reading a principle of co-governance into that seems reasonable. Legislating it will be a lot trickier though…

  6. tsmithfield 6
    6 February 2022 at 9:10 am

    I thought an interesting topic that might get some discussion going is around public transport, especially in light of the government's planned spending of billions of dollars on a relatively focussed light rail service.

    I do wonder if public transport will ever get to be a thing in NZ. I have used public transport in some of the major cities in the world, and found it to be incredible. If I was living in those cities, I doubt I would bother owning a car. Instead, I would probably just hire one if it was ever needed. Also, the high speed train network across Europe is fantastic, and often more enjoyable and convenient than flying.

    However, our problem in NZ is that most of our cities are under-populated and spread out. Thus, public transport tends to be an ideological thing rather than a practical one, and the choice of last resort for many. For instance, in Christchurch where I live the bus service is hopeless. Often, to get from point A to point B requires numerous bus inter-changes and can take several hours to get somewhere that would take 20 minutes in a car.

    So, I would like to suggest some practical ideas that I think would work better in our NZ context.

    Firstly, cycle ways. Where the topography suits, this option seems to be a no-brainer. As a car user, I am finding the constant construction of cycle-ways, removal of car parks etc to be annoying. But in the big picture, I think it makes sense. Cycling is good both for the environment and health, if it can be set up to be done safely. Holland is an excellent example of where cycling is a very popular mode of transport, as anyone who has visited that country would probably agree.

    Secondly, EVs. The problem with EVs at the moment is that purchasing an EV is really just virtue signalling as, at the moment, they are really just coal powered cars.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/447679/new-zealand-likely-to-have-record-high-imports-of-coal-in-2021-officials

    However, I think this problem could be solved by the government abandoning the light rail idea and putting the money into subsidising solar electric for NZ houses along with good battery storage. That would mean people could charge up their EVs at home overnight using power stored from solar electric generation, essentially giving them a free fuel source.

    We are going to need a lot more electricity generation as EVs become more popular, and this type of solution seems more sensible than damaging the environment by building more dams.

    If this became the preferred strategy, then building more roads would be a better strategy than trying to build elaborate public transport systems for populations that are too small and too spread out to justify it.

    I would be interested to hear what people think of my comments.

    • solkta 6.1
      6 February 2022 at 9:23 am

      The government has already started a trial of installing solar on public housing:

      Public and Māori housing to trial renewable energy technology

      https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/public-and-m%C4%81ori-housing-trial-renewable-energy-technology

      “We’re running this trial to test new and innovative ways to make energy affordable for people. It also supports our renewable energy and climate change goals – testing new ways of generating power at a local level, and integrating into local electricity networks,” Megan Woods said.

      “I’m keen to look at opportunities to trial energy solutions on our public housing stock. We can test whether local generation and storage works for public housing tenants, and what benefits this would deliver if invested at scale across our housing and development programmes.

      It seems an obvious extension of this to extend it to subsidise the same for private dwellings. I'm not sure why you think they couldn't do both this and the rail thing?

      • Graeme 6.1.1
        6 February 2022 at 10:04 am

        That statement from Megan Woods is 18 months old so there will be some results coming through now, be interesting to watch what changes there are for the bulk of it this year and 23/24.

        But a programme to get solar onto private dwellings is a very good idea, like the lpg / cng car conversion programme in 70's and 80's.

        Re Auckland's light rail / metro thing, if they went to an ev solution they would run out of space to put roads and park the evs very quickly with any population growth or intensification. The city is probably close to that now. The thing was really only ever buildable and socially adaptable if it was underground. At grade would have been a complete mess through the build phase and as the city adapted to it taking over the streets, that's likely to be a kinetic adaption process.

        Underground also frees up the streets for people and commerce, rather than through transit so the city can flourish. Probably not the solution for Christchurch but the one Auckland should have had in 70's.

        • tsmithfield 6.1.1.1
          6 February 2022 at 11:38 am

          Also, encouraging car-pooling seems like a no-brainer, given there is no cost to that method of easing congestion, and may in fact start becoming more of a thing as fuel prices rise.

          I think there could be a good role for public transit in say a light rail or bus shuttle type service from parking centres to frequently used locations such as shopping centres and the airport.

          That sort of thing runs quite well overseas, and would probably be economic because it would allow cheap land to be used for parking.

          Roads are an issue. I do think toll roads are a good idea if done well, which would offset the cost.

          I have driven on toll roads in France and they are fantastic. We drove from Marseille to Nice on the toll road. The alternative costal road was about the same distance but took twice as long.

          The cost of the toll road I imagine would have easily been offset by fuel savings, and savings in time, which is valuable when on holiday.

      • tsmithfield 6.1.2
        6 February 2022 at 11:30 am

        Looking in from outside Auckland, I do question whether the rail thing is going to deliver the best bang for buck.

        Or could that money be better spent on a number of initiatives that in the end achieve a lot more with the money?

    • pat 6.2
      6 February 2022 at 10:02 am

      "However, I think this problem could be solved by the government abandoning the light rail idea and putting the money into subsidising solar electric for NZ houses along with good battery storage. That would mean people could charge up their EVs at home overnight using power stored from solar electric generation, essentially giving them a free fuel source"

      Think that is an idea that warrants exploration…and you are right about ChCh bus service it will never replace private vehicle use unless its the only option.

    • Molly 6.3
      6 February 2022 at 11:16 am

      For an alternative look from someone who had been there during the light rail investigation, Mike Lee: Trams to the airport is deluded folly.

      Auckland Airport is of critical economic importance to Auckland and to New Zealand — it is the premier gateway to the country. Despite hundreds of millions of dollars spent on road construction in recent years, congestion on the route to the city is already near where it was 10 years ago, chronic at peak times, periodically at gridlock. With airport passenger movements currently 19 million per year and predicted to increase to 40 million by 2040, this chronic congestion can only become worse — with dire consequences.

      It need not be so. Following on from work initiated by the former Auckland Regional Council, in September 2011, a multi-agency study involving Auckland Council, Auckland Transport, NZTA, KiwiRail, Auckland International Airport Ltd, and GHD consultants, after examining light rail (trams), busway and heavy rail (electric train) options, concluded that a heavy rail loop from Onehunga 10km to the airport and 6.8km from Puhinui on the main trunk line would be the "most economically efficient" solution — providing a fast, single-seat journey from airport to downtown Auckland, including the future CRL stations; and in some cases with cross-platform transfers, all points on the rail network including Newmarket, Henderson, Glen Innes, Pukekohe, and ultimately Hamilton.

      Mike Lee's removal from local government was celebrated by Greater Auckland commenters, as his voting record was reported as:

      Against the CRL – in fact he voted against the final budget as that budget had increased substantially without reference to why, and he asked for this to be remedied;

      Against intensification – once again, he voted against the Unitary Plan being ratified without the necessity to meet the requirements of the Auckland Design Manual which was held up during the consultation process as the insurance of quality.

      Solely responsible for the location of the Parnell station, which is critiqued quite substantially, but the decision lies with all who voted.

      One of the requirements for good resilience planning, is for the planning of both the built environments and transport to be done together. The division of the two disciplines creates transports systems not as efficiently aligned, and communities that are badly served.

      Cycleways, for many are recreational only. Many Aucklanders that are not well connected by public transport options, travel quite considerable distances to get to work, school and other services. Cycleways, walkways improve well-being in many ways, but will not necessarily impact on necessary car trips.

      We are in a position where new developments should be planned with alternative transport as a fundamental requirements, but also included should be all services, community facilities and other aspects of neighbourhood living. The difficulty we face is the retrospective look at established communities where links to transport, facilities and services is dismal, and how we address that.

      Failure of government at both national and local level, to come to grips with the housing, inequality and climate crises is systematic. Solutions that are simple are unlikely to be true solutions, but rather projects that can be easily implemented and celebrated.

    • Shanreagh 6.4
      6 February 2022 at 3:00 pm

      TS Smithfield I really appreciate your two big posts this weekend (Poto Williams/housing and this one on transport) with their related quotes and citations and am going to read them carefully. I am planning to head away, weather permitting today but will read and comment a bit later.

      By the way you are 'mentioned in dispatches' in the moderation thread…..smiley

    • mac1 6.5
      6 February 2022 at 4:41 pm

      "Secondly, EVs. The problem with EVs at the moment is that purchasing an EV is really just virtue signalling as, at the moment, they are really just coal powered cars."

      tsmithfield, interested to see the figures you have to claim that EV owners are virtue signallers.

      Do you have figures for how many EV owners are not solar power generators?

      I ask because I have an EV, I have solar panels and currently I produce more electricity than I consume, car included. Latest monthly figures 530 kw/h produced, 460 kw/h consumed.

      This EV virtue signalling meme is frankly tyresome.

      • tsmithfield 6.5.1
        6 February 2022 at 6:21 pm

        That is a fair comment, and I think your point about powering your car from your own solar panels very much fits into my point about the need for the government to incentivise the fitting of solar panels as an environmentally friendly way to increase our power supply and to power EV cars.

        The fact we are importing coal is evidence enough for me that the extra load from EVs being imported under the government incentive scheme, are likely to be powered by the imported coal at least to some extent, unless people take the step you have in terms of installing solar power.

        • mac1 6.5.1.1
          6 February 2022 at 6:46 pm

          Your point about accessing batteries is important for storage is an issue, and an expensive one.

          A second hand older Leaf with commensurate battery would seem to be cheaper than a Tesla type battery, and it is a car as well.

          Got to look into that more closely…….

          But no matter. the question of affordable battery storage is important as current prices seem just not worth it. Would governments subsidise them? Well there are financial considerations as well as environmental ones got me generating because that made sense in the 8 year scheme of things.

          I weep to see new housing developments with very little solar generation and at the same time noticing houses with black roofs needing cooling by electrical power that they are not generating in a high sunshine area.

          Subsidy would be great, for environmental purposes.

          What would it cost me to buy a battery that will save me money by saving surplus electricity that I can sell to GP Electricity at 7 cents a unit? Payback time at the moment seems to be around the life of the battery!

          • tsmithfield 6.5.1.1.1
            6 February 2022 at 7:20 pm

            From what I have seen, the cost of battery storage has come down quite a lot over recent years. Also, it will be more economical as power prices go up.

            However, government subsidies for solar power and storage seem a no-brainer to me. This would make the technology much more viable at little or no cost to the government.

            The thing is, we obviously need a lot more renewable energy if we are going to pay more than lip service to our climate obligations. So burning coal can't be a longterm option for generating power.

            So, the government has to spend money on renewable energy one way or another. Granted, not all homes are suitable for solar. But even if 30% of our housing stock had solar, imagine what that would do for our power supply.

            Also, it would directly benefit those with the panels as it would directly reduce their own costs, and potentially power their vehicles if the own EVs.

  7. Treetop 7
    6 February 2022 at 9:13 am

    Reply to 5.

    The party to watch at the next election will be the Maori Party. I can see the Maori Party increasing in size due to current issues such as health and housing and historical issues such as state welfare care.

    • Hongi Ika 7.1
      6 February 2022 at 9:26 am

      Agree 100% only party that truly cares about NZ

    • Dennis Frank 7.2
      6 February 2022 at 9:59 am

      I suspect you could be right about that. Probably depends how Labour manages to progress the co-governance agenda – I see a fork in their path. Could be the excellent managerial skills plus the glib Willie combine to get the entire caucus onside.

      The other path out of the fork would be an internal schism which they will have to pretend doesn't exist. Best scenario for that would be to kick the can down the road awhile to focus on broadening consensus. More Maori brought into the tent.

    • Bearded Git 7.3
      6 February 2022 at 10:03 am

      Treetop-you may be on to something there. But the MP is not going to go into coalition with a party that calls them "thugs".

      Huge mistake by Seymour, showing his true colours.

      • solkta 7.3.1
        6 February 2022 at 10:10 am

        They can't go into coalition with National either. They had to promise their supporters they wouldn't do that again just to get back in.

        • Belladonna 7.3.1.1
          6 February 2022 at 11:50 am

          In which case, they have the Greens problem.

          The only party they can go into coalition with is Labour. So they have no leverage.

          We all saw how that played out following the 2017 election, when Peters and NZ First held the balance of power. He was able to negotiate very substantial conditions from Labour (much greater than the GP were able to do) – and also kept the GP out of the actual government [from the GP perspective that may or may not have been a benefit]

          So, unless the TPM see themselves as a perpetual opposition party (there to loudly take the government of the day to account) – they have little hope of ever actually making a legislative difference.

          Of course, being a loud and vocal opposition can play well with a chunk of their potential voter base – especially one with currently feels disempowered. But it makes them very vulnerable to the strong Labour Maori caucus – who can play the 'vote for us – we can actually implement policy' card.

          • solkta 7.3.1.1.1
            6 February 2022 at 12:36 pm

            Act is in the same position.

            We haven't yet had a situation where Labour has to form coalition without NZF in the mix. When they do they will have to either give a fair share of policy to the Greens and/or Maori Party or go with being a minority government dependent on those parties (one or both depending) for support on every single piece of legislation as they come up. In a situation where the Labour Party needs the Maori Party the Labour Maori caucus will not be able to "actually implement policy" without them.

            If Labour has the numbers plus a margin with just the Greens then they aren't likely to include the Maori Party. If in that situation it not credible that National might offer the Maori party a better package for Maori than Labour and the Greens without them would implement. The Maori Party exists to get the best outcome for Maori.

            • weka 7.3.1.1.1.1
              6 February 2022 at 1:07 pm

              depends on how much is said in the election campaign by the Mp on forming govt with Nat. If they rule it out, they can't use that as leverage.

              • solkta …
                6 February 2022 at 4:11 pm

                Leverage against who? Labour would not take that seriously just like they didn't take it seriously when the Greens tried to play that game. It hurt the Greens badly in votes though when they made those silly noises, and it would hurt the Maori Party too.

                • weka …
                  6 February 2022 at 4:56 pm

                  The Greens never really played that game, Norman's stupid gaff the week before an election aside. However the Mp do have the potential to be queenmaker, as they can sit between Labour and National in ways that the GP can't. Mp can't do that if they rule out Nat pre-election.

                  • solkta …
                    6 February 2022 at 6:23 pm

                    They will most likely use language like "extremely unlikely" as the Greens have done in the past so as to keep the possibility open but hopefully not scare their supporters.

                    This is what their president was saying last time:

                    "We're clear that our people align more to Labour and so we are open to having a conversation with Labour.

                    "If we ever do talk to National it will have to be a big deal for us to move that way again,'' Wilson said.

                    "The perception and reputation by aligning with National affected us."

                    "It kicked us out and so it would have to be a pretty impressive package for us to consider it,'' he said.

                    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/409006/maori-party-president-wary-of-national-partnership-it-kicked-us-out

                    But as i said above it is not credible that National might offer the them a better package for Maori than Labour and the Greens without them would implement. Everybody of significance knows this. They won't have any real leverage.

          • weka 7.3.1.1.2
            6 February 2022 at 1:06 pm

            Not quite true. If Labour can't form a government on their own, and there is no centrist party to play queen maker, then the GP' 'leverage' is around whether Labour want to spend their third term as a minority government, perhaps with C/S from the GP, perhaps the GP free to vote however they want whenever they want. This places Labour in a precarious position for that term with the opposition and MSM (narratives of unstable government, and not having a mandate, difficulty in passing legislation), and affects their ability to win a fourth term.

            That's not insignificant.

            • Belladonna 7.3.1.1.2.1
              6 February 2022 at 1:18 pm

              And, in that case (Labour needs a coalition partner), it's entirely feasible that GP would do better to remain out of government, leaving Labour as a minority government with very limited C/S from the Greens.
              Enabling an issue-by-issue negotiation between LP & GP over individual pieces of legislation.
              We've seen, in the past, that Labour is more cunning over wording of coalition agreements than the GP. Meaning that GP ministers have had to publicly swallow dead rats in the Labour/NZF coalition.
              Rather than trying to foresee all issues in advance, it may be politically better for the GP to be in the position of negotiation over each piece of legislation.
              Of course, Labour certainly won't see it that way (for the above reasons of perception of instability)….

              It seems unlikely that TPM would be in the same 'queenmaker' role – but never say never in politics.
              In that case, they would be far better served not to rule out either of the main parties pre-election – and publicly say they are willing to negotiate with any party to improve outcomes for Maori in NZ. Or to make it clear that they will negotiate support on an issue-by-issue basis, with whichever party is in government.

    • Belladonna 7.4
      6 February 2022 at 6:46 pm

      If that's the case (and it's a big if), then it comes at the expense of Labour.

      The *if* is because traditionally the Maori seats have a very strong loyalty to existing MPs and bloodlines (e.g. Mahuta in Hauraki-Waikato; or Tirikatene for Te Tai Tonga)

      National don't now (if they ever had!) any chance of winning one of the Maori electorates. It doesn't seem to be a Green constituency, and the only other party that's ever had any leverage is NZ First. [I know one can never rule Winston out, but it seems … unlikley … ATM that there will be a resurgence]

      So a substantially increased TPM is going to come at the expense of the Labour Maori caucus.

  9. Sanctuary 9
    6 February 2022 at 10:37 am

    A couple of days ago I posted the following…

    "…expect a slew of media stories from wounded bright young things back from London of how awful and insular and parochial and horrible NZ is now…"

    https://thestandard.org.nz/how-the-covid-area-changes-us/#comment-1858055

    And so it begins…

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/127663968/when-being-kind-stops-at-the-border–how-miq-made-kiwis-mean

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/127686317/what-kind-of-welcome-will-stranded-kiwis-receive

    • Dennis Frank 9.1
      6 February 2022 at 11:03 am

      Goes to show just how binary by nature many people are. Bureaucrats creating a privilege system establishes us vs them in the psyche. The team of 5 million transforms into two competing teams.

      Governance that escalates resentment into anger produces a toxic culture. You'd think that was already common knowledge. But since social media had already been manufacturing toxic culture for quite a while perhaps those responsible thought the pond's already muddy, nobody will mind if we stir it up.

      • Peter 9.1.1
        6 February 2022 at 12:10 pm

        Did the Covid era change us as much as covid simply gave us a chance to show who were really are?

        I learned from election rallies and protests that if I went by a 5G tower the coronavirus would get me. And if I got a vaccination I'd become magnetic.

        I learned that lots of people were super concerned about what medical scientists were putting into their bodies, most likely after a lifetime of happily accepting advice to take stuff into their bodies. And accept that most of the food they'd taken aboard had elements approved by scientists in laboratories. (Shopping will be fun with aisles clogged with magnifying glass carrying customers checking, just in case.)

        I learned that among the populace there are so many who from day one got to show that they had a scientific knowledge greater than that of the experts.

        I learned that my ancestors were fortunate to not suffer the torment of the lockdowns of 2019-2021. They were so lucky with their frolic in the trenches in Europe 1914-1918

        "Nearly every New Zealand family was affected by the impact of the war. The total population of New Zealand in 1914 was just over one million. In all, more than 120,000 New Zealanders enlisted, and around 100,000 served overseas. Most were young men, and nearly one in five who served abroad did not return."

        The covid era did not turn us into a largely self-centred, short-sighted, ignorant, ungrateful mob lacking in resilience. Were were that, the virus was the opportunity to flaunt our wares.

        • Dennis Frank 9.1.1.1
          6 February 2022 at 12:25 pm

          Yeah, human nature provides deep context. Inevitably politicos will notice that any pattern of consistency of polarisation in those kiwis returning home will become significant in proportion to the numbers.

          Point being if they're all pissed off with being demonised, their anger will focus on who is demonising them. That focus won't be on nitwits on social media – it will be on who's turning those nitwits into reef fish all emoting in the same direction.

          Not hard to see the moronic tendency of bureaucrats as a systemic device for manufacturing a large group of people angry at the current govt. So watch the next major political poll for any discernable effect.

        • Belladonna 9.1.1.2
          6 February 2022 at 1:32 pm

          "I learned that among the populace there are so many who from day one got to show that they had a scientific knowledge greater than that of the experts."

          You see that in the pub after every All Blacks match – amazing the number of fully qualified rugby selectors/coaches NZ has just sitting waiting for the NZRB to call them up. /sarc

          NZ is a nation of armchair experts….

        • Shanreagh 9.1.1.3
          6 February 2022 at 4:11 pm

          The covid era did not turn us into a largely self-centred, short-sighted, ignorant, ungrateful mob lacking in resilience. Were were that, the virus was the opportunity to flaunt our wares.

          I think we saw how normalised being a 'largely self-centred, short-sighted, ignorant, ungrateful mob lacking in resilience' had become.

          Not everyone obviously and aided by a media keen to fire bullets and 'gotchas' instead of being supportive when they could, and reflective when it was needed.

        • Patricia Bremner 9.1.1.4
          6 February 2022 at 7:38 pm

          When being an individual is promoted above all else, community is a strange land.

    • Shanreagh 9.2
      6 February 2022 at 11:27 am

      Yes Sanctuary it is rubbish isn't it and as for being binary, not so…….my partner said that with the border openings we have instantly got from the team of 5 million to 5 million teams of 1.

      I think the Moaning Minnie virus is still to run its way through those coming back……still rampant while they wait but expect so much more in times to come about how behind we are, how they cannot rent, how they have to wait for possessions to be shipped, how we should do this or that.

      I moan about moaners. They are the biggest sappers of energy and good feelings, and builders of toxicity.

      People who set about seeking positive change have my vote. The moaners are mostly media abetted 'looka me looka me'. They want change only for themselves.

      • Belladonna 9.2.1
        6 February 2022 at 12:00 pm

        It's a matter of perspective whether the reduction-moving-to-elimination of MIQ isolation is a positive or a negative change.
        To be fair, it's difficult to see what other avenue individual people who want change, have to influence the government. Especially if overseas (you can't exactly buttonhole your MP at their electorate office).

        And, aren't the people who are unhappy with the proposed border isolation change, also now 'moaners'?

        • Shanreagh 9.2.1.1
          6 February 2022 at 12:24 pm

          As one who feels that the border opening missed an opportunity to advance a left supportive agenda I do not feel that I am moaning when I mention this. Many of the posts on here are not anti the opening peer se but have have health or other concerns. That is not moaning.

          I don't feel I am moaning when I pinpoint where others are moaning and likely to continue moaning.

          I am all for positive changes and positive statements on possible ways forward.

          I class those who say went to Aus when we were in the grips of the pandemic then could not get home and now complain, as moaners. They want to have us share the blame by feeling sorry for them and their bad decisions. They add nothing to the way forward to the greater good, they are entirely self absorbed.

          • Belladonna 9.2.1.1.1
            6 February 2022 at 1:28 pm

            Ah, so people who agree with you aren't moaning; but people who disagree with you are.

            I believe that it's far better to openly discuss issues, rather than cast slurs on people who don't share your current beliefs.

            'Moaning' implies that people don't have an alternative to propose, and debate.

            • Shanreagh 9.2.1.1.1.1
              6 February 2022 at 3:23 pm

              Sadly you have mostly missed my point.

              I don't disagree with this part which has been my point all through this, my Moaning Minnie perspective is not new.

              'Moaning' implies that people don't have an alternative to propose, and debate.

              This is exactly what I have found (I don't 'imply' it I have seen it evidenced) and exactly what I am calling out and have been for over two years now in relation to many issues around our Covid response.

              The growth of moaning (def. to lament, bewail or bemoan) as a way of commentary had led me to posit (not really jokingly) that another virus came in with Covid and that was the Moaning Minnie virus.

              The growth of moaning has been so different to the perception of the NZ psyche I have experienced to date or what has been shown as our psyche by commentators right from early times and especially through the two World wars and depressions. In those times we got to and did, were self reliant. Moaning as a purpose is useless.

              Moaners do not have an alternative…they just moan. Obviously if they had another a range of views or another view other than their own to discuss and debate they would not be moaners would they? I think this is self evident.

              Moaners usually/often think only of their own situation and are unable to think of others views let alone if others views might be the better view or an interesting alternative.

        • Poission 9.2.1.2
          6 February 2022 at 1:47 pm

          It's a matter of perspective whether the reduction-moving-to-elimination of MIQ isolation is a positive or a negative change.

          It is also a neat scientific fact,that it is also a good strategic defence to mitigate the cost to our health system,and the forthcoming cost to the hospitality sector.

          MIQ is also our only defence against the next variant of which Mendelian dynamics suggest strongly for higher selection for enhanced virulance.

          The social cost for locking out the shrills and furies is outweighed by the social cost of locking down 47000 people in aged care,and a greater number with disabilities and chronic health problems,and the deferment of health interventions due to a decrease in available health care.

          there is no economic benefit in letting it rip with open borders.

          • Belladonna 9.2.1.2.1
            6 February 2022 at 2:19 pm

            Happy to debate fact and opinion (indeed, that's why I come here), I just object to people being characterized as 'moaners' because they have a different opinion.

            It's difficult to see how MIQ is a mitigation of the cost to the hospitality sector? Is that a typo? Or could you explain further.

            The pattern of mutation to date with Covid, and historically with other epidemics, has been to increased virulence, but decreased mortality (this makes 'sense' from the viruses' perspective – it wants to infect as many people as possible, but not kill them off, since then they stop spreading the virus).

            Yes, I know that this has potential impacts on the health-care sector (proportionally fewer people in intensive care, but actually greater absolute numbers).
            But, and it's a big but, we already know that MIQ can't keep out Omicron. It's even less likely to keep out the possible 'child of Omicron' which is even more virulent.

            And, right now, the NZ population is at over 90 fully vaccinated, and (with boosters) at just about the peak of the protection. Yes, I know that older people, people with co-morbidities, disabled, chronically ill, etc. are at greater risk. But they will *always* be at greater risk. Waiting isn't going to change that.

            Covid is not going away. It's endemic now in the rest of the world – a bit like measles – which regularly has a flare up, here, after arriving from overseas. [I know, measles isn't as lethal – I'm comparing the mode of transmission]

            If not now, to open MIQ, then when?

            • Dennis Frank 9.2.1.2.1.1
              6 February 2022 at 3:01 pm

              I just object to people being characterized as 'moaners' because they have a different opinion.

              Complainants could be more suitable – they are complaining. Any reasonable person would sympathise with a returning kiwi who is being victimised by arbitrary rules created by unaccountable bureaucrats. Similarly, complaining about abuse online from strange kiwis is understandable & reasonable too.

              makes 'sense' from the viruses' perspective – it wants to infect as many people as possible, but not kill them off, since then they stop spreading the virus

              I've seen that reasoning in books written about genetics by science writers and it points to a deep context in natural systems theory, a conceptual thread that if you follow often leads to symbiosis.

              Easy to read too much into that though. Bacteria exchange signals with their environment (scientists have watched them move towards a food source) but a virus is much smaller, with geometric form, somewhere between organic & inorganic. That's the impression I got from past years' reading, which makes the possibility of actual intelligence unlikely. But I wouldn't rule out the possibility of a group mind-field…

              • Shanreagh …
                6 February 2022 at 3:53 pm

                Yes Dennis I could have called it the 'Covid Complainer virus' but chose the Moaning Minnie virus. For the alliteration and because I thought people would know what a MM was.

                Complaining in my world is a different beast from moaning. My experience with complaints is that they mostly/often have a cause and working with people you can see their view and they can see yours (if you work in role dealing with complaints)

                Moaning Minnie, is a pessimistic,' complaining' person. It has its genesis from the on and on wailing sound from air raid sirens or the particular sound a German mortar made…..I guess much the same on and on, unable to stop them feeling, the people living in the area around Parliament Hill in Ottawa are feeling with the constant air horns and sirens from the trucks.

                In the Covid context someone who complains ad nauseam for no purpose, without alternatives, often without making any contact with groups or people who could do something to help, mostly entirely self focussed.

            • Drowsy M. Kram 9.2.1.2.1.2
              6 February 2022 at 3:01 pm

              If not now, to open MIQ, then when?

              Soon? Not soon enough, for some – too soon for others. Health, money, freedom, etc. etc. – so many possible priorities to consider. If you’re young and fit, then health considerations don’t get much of a look in, while at the other end of those spectra, health is a much bigger deal.

            • Shanreagh 9.2.1.2.1.3
              6 February 2022 at 3:36 pm

              Happy to debate fact and opinion (indeed, that's why I come here), I just object to people being characterized as 'moaners' because they have a different opinion.

              Belladonna…..I am very tired of this misrepresentation of my views.

              The trouble with moaners is that they

              a) only have one view

              b) are unable to think of alternatives views

              c) mostly entirely self focussed

              the views they have are usually only relate to something they personally feel hard done by and show no ability to think of other views or the bigger picture.

              Hoping that I won't have to explain this again. You seem to have a bit of difficulty with this concept I have developed, firstly as a bit of fun. A rather cruder expression that fits some/most moaners is 'they open their mouths and let the wind blow their tongues around"

              Off hand I can't think of a poster on here that fits the description and that is why I am so disappointed that you have missed my point. We are referencing (see upthread) those who are STILL complaining about MIQ even though they have a pathway back.

              I have every respect for those who express different views with a reference to those of others, the big picture and especially with quotes from and citations to back them up. My posting history will back that up.

            • Poission 9.2.1.2.1.4
              6 February 2022 at 3:42 pm

              It's difficult to see how MIQ is a mitigation of the cost to the hospitality sector? Is that a typo? Or could you explain further.

              i) With less covid circulating people will increase their risk of increased interaction,with the increased virus in the community they will decrease the risk. NY restaurant and recreation figures for January show sales down by 2/3's.UK similar with decreased mobility.

              ii) Omicron was not a MIQ fail,it came through the green gate on Aircrew and was captured by routine testing ( the same with the Australian Delta outbreak where it came in on vaccinated Fedex aircrew)

              The pattern of mutation to date with Covid, and historically with other epidemics, has been to increased virulence, but decreased mortality (this makes 'sense' from the viruses' perspective – it wants to infect as many people as possible, but not kill them off, since then they stop spreading the virus

              i) The virus opportunity selection is only on chance,chance selects for increased virulence due to multiplication (Mendelian dynamics is of the Multiplication Type)

              ii) Covid does not select for decreased severity,it is only opportunistic Omicron is as severe as delta,for cases that would be infected by Delta.

              Viruses don’t inevitably evolve toward being less virulent; evolution simply selects those that excel at multiplying. In the case of Covid-19, in which the vast majority of transmission occurs before disease becomes severe, reduced severity may not be directly selected for at all. Indeed, previous SARS-CoV-2 variants with enhanced transmissibility (e.g., alpha and delta) appear to have greater intrinsic severity than their immediate ancestors or the previously dominant variant.

              https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2119682

              Covid is not going away. It's endemic now in the rest of the world – a bit like measles – which regularly has a flare up, here, after arriving from overseas. [I know, measles isn't as lethal – I'm comparing the mode of transmission]

              Endemic is not a reason for joining the party,it is a constraint that will limit our economic wellbeing during an agriculture commodities boom.

              i)Chinese phytosanitary requirements preclude exports from establishments with coronavirus.

              ii) There are significant differences in our responsibility to those who want to relocate back to NZ ,and those who purposefully distanced themselves from their families to gain an economic advantage for themselves.

              Thinking that endemicity is both mild and inevitable is more than wrong, it is dangerous: it sets humanity up for many more years of disease, including unpredictable waves of outbreaks. It is more productive to consider how bad things could get if we keep giving the virus opportunities to outwit us. Then we might do more to ensure that this does not happen

              https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00155-x

              • Belladonna …
                6 February 2022 at 5:58 pm

                "Omicron was not a MIQ fail,it came through the green gate on Aircrew and was captured by routine testing ( the same with the Australian Delta outbreak where it came in on vaccinated Fedex aircrew)"

                I'm not aware the the actual pathway for community transmission had been published. I know that there were several 'scares' (DJ, aircrew, etc.), but the first one that I know of which had widespread transmission was a border worker (and AFAIK it's not been released how he caught the infection).

                https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/459643/covid-19-update-border-worker-confirmed-as-omicron-case

                Regardless of the method of transmission – it's a quarantine fail (if there are pathways around quarantine, then the virus will take them). And would occur just as readily for 'son of Omicron' unless you propose quarantining all aircrew – effectively shutting down air travel into NZ.

            • Molly 9.2.1.2.1.5
              6 February 2022 at 4:42 pm

              It's difficult to see how MIQ is a mitigation of the cost to the hospitality sector? Is that a typo? Or could you explain further.

              For some operators this is true. My friend's husband is higher management level for Accor. After the initial lockdown period, he has been very busy, with MIQ facilities and the resultant income from that.

              • McFlock …
                6 February 2022 at 5:13 pm

                True.

                I'd also add that when we were in lockdown, a local theatre was shut. But full houses at L2, and full distanced/bubbled at L3.

                There are a lot of venues overseas who have suffered all the way through because their "lockdowns" never actually stopped the spread, so audiences were a fraction of their precovid state. Lots of folks just don't feel happy going out, and we're probably at the beginning of that stage here.

                • Belladonna …
                  6 February 2022 at 5:49 pm

                  However, moving forward, we have Omicron in the community.
                  The discussion is whether or not to move towards the reduction-then-abandonment of MIQ (in most cases) following the Govt policy.

                  It's difficult to see how retaining MIQ in this situation is going to benefit the hospitality industry (well, apart from the small sub-set who are making a living out of turning hotels into MIQ facilities).

                  Hospitality depends on the community socializing, on domestic tourism, and on international tourism. All of which are pretty much going to shut down until the wave of Omicron has swept through NZ (note: we can't prevent it, it's already here)

                  Given that we've abandoned the stamp it out approach, all that retaining MIQ can do is (possibly) slow down the infection spread. And, from the hospitality perspective, that means that the shut-downs and lack of patronage will go on for longer.

                  I don't really see the hospitality industry in general as a strong beneficiary of continuing the stringent MIQ quarantine approach (and nor, I should think, do they).

                  • Molly …
                    6 February 2022 at 6:02 pm

                    Retaining MIQ for non-vaccinated/foreigners until we are sure further (possibly harmful) variants are not forthcoming may be justifiable.

                    NZers are more likely to return to homes, and possibly more likely to self-isolate given they will have homes to do so. Foreigners on limited holidays may be less inclined to self-regulate.

                    Of course, at some point MIQ will have to be lost, but there are a mostly likely a couple of review points before that time.

                  • McFlock …
                    6 February 2022 at 6:02 pm

                    Well, I like full houses, but the only people dying as a result should be bad comedians on stage.

                    Given that we've abandoned the stamp it out approach, all that retaining MIQ can do is (possibly) slow down the infection spread. And, from the hospitality perspective, that means that the shut-downs and lack of patronage will go on for longer.

                    Not so sure about that. Slower spread still saves lives – gives people time to jab up, keeps services from being flooded so badly, etc.

                    But even after a quick peak, we're still in a new economy. Things won't bounce back, however sharp the peak and trough.

                    • Belladonna …
                      6 February 2022 at 6:51 pm

                      Oh, I agree about the possible value to the health sector – but was deeply sceptical about the touted value to the hospitality sector.

                    • McFlock …
                      6 February 2022 at 6:53 pm

                      See, I tend to think that the hospo sector does better with a healthy population.

    • AB 9.3
      6 February 2022 at 12:09 pm

      Looks like a concerted effort to prevent anything like "class consciousness" from emerging out of the pandemic experience.

      Essentially, it becomes very dangerous for existing wealth/power if enough people realise that collective effort towards a common good (e.g. temporarily elevating public health above private profit) provides a template for the other major problems we face, such as climate change.

      If any such dangerous and emerging consciousness can be stigmatised as cruelty and unkindness, it is less likely to take root. They are, in effect, trying to make us ashamed of our success in managing the pandemic.

      • Shanreagh 9.3.1
        6 February 2022 at 12:28 pm

        Very perceptive.

        Essentially, it becomes very dangerous for existing wealth/power if enough people realise that collective effort towards a common good (e.g. temporarily elevating public health above private profit) provides a template for the other major problems we face, such as climate change.

        It is this template, skill in crisis management that could have provided a logical step forward to managing climate change, poverty and housing shortages. Plus mobilising a whole of Govt approach that was decimated in the PS changes under neolib.

        A huge missed opportunity for the Govt.

      • Dennis Frank 9.3.2
        6 February 2022 at 12:32 pm

        Elegant reasoning. You've got a point but I suspect you may be overstating it somewhat. They're just reacting to being demonised by strangers. It is a jarring experience when you consider the ethos of Aotearoa as a nation of friendly folk got normalised generations ago. They naturally interpret the hostility as inappropriate.

        • Shanreagh 9.3.2.1
          6 February 2022 at 4:00 pm

          Who got demonised by strangers? Not following.

          AB says nothing about this……just that those 'behind' have crept forward to prevent a successful team of 5m approach being used for other problems on the horizon.

          AB is not talking about people coming to NZ but about the loss of the ability to pull as one and what may have happened if we could have continued this to make a start on dealing with things like climate change.

      • Patricia Bremner 9.3.3
        6 February 2022 at 9:56 pm

        When being an individual is promoted above all else, community is a strange land, and othering begins.

        "Jacinda Ardern has hidden agendas and is sneaky"

        "Maori want everything""\

        "The Nation is divided"

        All of this in the face of a high vaccination rate, and a public acceptance of MIQ and the slow lowering of the drawbridge. Two "polls" are snapshots of mood no more.

        Those who are complaining have been caught in a pandemic and it has cost them time money or influence..

        The stories make for clicks mainly about 1% of unhappy people.

        Those wanting to return to NZ had some small hope of doing so, and now a timetable.

        Australia just shut the borders without much notice and no returns, and opened again in much the same way. This caused a spike in disease, speculation over RATS (some of which were of questionable use) and endless business closures because Federal assistance stopped and customers became unemployed. (Reported by families in 3 different struggling States)

        This NZ opening is much more orderly. Our rise in cases slower because of preparations.

        Our biggest problem is impatience and a large pool with "born to rule" mentality.

        Christopher Luxon announced on Waitangi Day "I believe in equal opportunities but not equal outcomes" Equity is not in his tool box.

        Dirty Politics has begun imo. Memes are being repeated over and over. It began with John Key's "Hermit Kingdom" mirrored by comments from Scomo and Boris as "The old boys' club" piled on about NZ's locked down state and Jacinda Ardern becoming autocratic. We are being fed a lie.

        The next Budget and following poll will show what the trends are. Polls reflect mood and trends if they are accurately performed.

        Those on the Left need to list successes as Ad did recently.

        Planning and getting changes legislated bedded in and having an uplifting forward looking Budget, getting to grips with the omicron infections, building our resilience from the ground up, and giving hope promotion.

        Resisting the push back of self interested parties and power blocks will not be easy.

        • Shanreagh 9.3.3.1
          6 February 2022 at 10:16 pm

          Excellent points Patricia.

          We have had a feast of good posts this weekend.

          Thank you everyone

    • gsays 9.4
      6 February 2022 at 12:48 pm

      I wandered off site to Redline and came across an article that helps to explain the change in newsrooms and therefore what gets published.

      While US centric it mentions an NZ link:

      "David Rozado, a computer scientist who teaches at New Zealand’s Otago Polytechnic. Rozado created a computer program that trawled the online archives of the Times from 1970 to 2018 to track the frequency with which certain words were used."

      https://rdln.wordpress.com/2022/01/18/the-great-awokening/#comment-10574

      As AB notes, all of this keeps us distracted from a "class consciousness" arising.

      Eg, we have all come to realise that most of the workforce deemed essential – care-givers, supermarket workers, nurses and other hospital staff, cleaners have not had their pay or conditions adjust accordingly.

      'But look at that racist/ageist/sexist over there.'

      • McFlock 9.4.1
        6 February 2022 at 4:25 pm

        Seriously? A campaign about conditions for essential workers was derailed and fell apart because of one ageist person?

        I must have missed that bit in the link.

  10. Molly 10
    6 February 2022 at 10:48 am

    Personal vaccine update:

    Received booster vaccine two weeks ago, site of injection only just returning to normal but otherwise no other effects.

    Experience with asking for aspiration: Older nurse (who would likely know how) responded immediately with "No. It's against the rules.". Younger nurse, on computer, responded by looking up the NZ Immunisation site for confirmation that they could when I referenced it, and found that I was within my rights to ask and expect to receive the delivery by aspiration.

    Older nurse left, and then returned. Was annoyed when she saw I was watching, and asked "Are you going to watch?". "Yes." She then pulled back the plunger, and said, "Well, is that OK?" No blood in the syringe, so I said "Yes."

    Realised immediately on her then administering the injection that she had also pulled the needle from my arm about 5mm, so when she pushed the plunger, she also pushed the needle further into my arm, thereby making the aspiration procedure to check for blood, a nonsense. She was smiling as I left.

    While paying at my GP reception last week, was joined by a couple in their fifties with the male presenting with heart and chest pains since being administered the booster vaccine the day before. After an initial back and forth, repeated to the second receptionist they were quickly ushered away to be seen. A good response, and clearly an example of medical advice being sought in a timely manner.

    • weka 10.1
      6 February 2022 at 10:53 am

      Realised immediately on her then administering the injection that she had also pulled the needle from my arm about 5mm, so when she pushed the plunger, she also pushed the needle further into my arm, thereby making the aspiration procedure to check for blood, a nonsense. She was smiling as I left.

      Whoa, isn't that dangerous? (what the nurse did)

      Either way, that's complete bullshit, worthy of a complaint (whether it's useful in that clinic is another matter).

      • Molly 10.1.1
        6 February 2022 at 11:33 am

        "Whoa, isn't that dangerous? (what the nurse did)"

        I thought about it, and then considered that it really is the equivalent of giving the vaccine without aspiration, which is standard practice. I think there is a degree of danger, hence the aspiration request, but the guidance from the MoH is only aspiration on request, so…

        Either way, that's complete bullshit, worthy of a complaint (whether it's useful in that clinic is another matter).

        I don't have a problem making a complaint to the clinic, except the expectation it will require time and effort unrewarded by any change. I have provided review on other care aspects, and watched two friends go through medical complaints processes and one give it up after two years.

        I think it may be more fruitful to say to anyone who ask for aspiration, watch very carefully to see that the needle remains fully inserted in your arm when the plunger is retracted to avoid the same scenario.

        FWIW, I think that I irritated the person who administered my vaccine by contradicting her lie in front of the younger nurse. I don't expect that scenario to be replayed with the same players in other vaccine clinics.

        • weka 10.1.1.1
          6 February 2022 at 11:53 am

          do you think it was an accident or intentional?

          FWIW, I think that I irritated the person who administered my vaccine by contradicting her lie in front of the younger nurse. I don't expect that scenario to be replayed with the same players in other vaccine clinics.

          Probably, but it's not an uncommon dynamic for staff to take such things personally. I modify my behaviour and requests quite a lot.

          And yep, the cost of time/effort vs reward is a real issue.

          • Molly 10.1.1.1.1
            6 February 2022 at 12:47 pm

            Intentional. She didn't hide the smirk.

            I'm not a demanding person in public…wink.

            My response to the initial refusal – which was a glib lie – was delivered in normal tones: "That's not true, you are allowed to aspirate on request. I can show you the advice on the Immunisation Advisory website if you like."

            According to my partner , I am one of the most polite people he knows, but I also have the effect of irritating many when I don't automatically comply or agree. I think I definitely irritated here.

    • Shanreagh 10.2
      6 February 2022 at 11:15 am

      Had no probs. Site about as sore as second injection ie not sore enough to be unusual. I get the flu injection every year and a couple of those hold the records for site soreness.

      High degree of excitement all round in the vaccination centre as families were there with children for their vaccines so we had pics made before coming of people having injections shown to us waiting ones from a distance, books being read and then once we had our injections the usual contingent of red or green lipped children sucking on their lollies. Not a whimper, except from child not being vaccinated who was inadvertently not given a lolly.

      I was reassured that brave and accepting parents who show their children medical procedures are not to be feared will usually bring up brave and accepting children.

      Please make a complaint if you feel the need Molly. I have had this wiggling (ie not making sure the needle is kept still during the process) when having blood taken. Some phlebotomists don't keep the needle steady when changing tubes. Have had bruising and blood dripping following once while walking down the street after once.

      • Molly 10.2.1
        6 February 2022 at 11:24 am

        Have had a fair few injections in the last couple of years, and so, have had a wide variety of experiences, from the unnoticeable to a 45 minute session of "Let's try another vein…". Given that I had my thirteen year old son with me, in part to allow him to see that the medical treatment was not as bad to experience as it might appear, this was perhaps a misjudgement…laugh

        From a purely personal point of view, my experience was the result of having one of the martinets being asked to do something they didn't want to do, and finding a way of sabotaging the request. She was happy thinking I hadn't noticed, but unfortunately not as much as an outlier as she should be in terms of medical care. That being said, there are others who take great care. We need to recognise that there are both, in order to celebrate the latter and reduce the former.

    • gsays 10.3
      6 February 2022 at 11:51 am

      Hi Molly, just a wee enquiry- are you certain they were nurses?

      As opposed to someone recently trained to administer Pfizer's drug.

      • Molly 10.3.1
        6 February 2022 at 1:04 pm

        "Hi Molly, just a wee enquiry- are you certain they were nurses?"

        Good point. No, would be the accurate answer.

        My initial request: " Hi, are you able to aspirate when you give the vaccine?", because I thought they may not know how. My sense is the vaccinator was a nurse, the younger maybe not as the just entered info on the computer.

        Another interesting point: Waited an extra five minutes than everyone else in the recovery room, four others entered and left after me, leaving me seated alone in an otherwise empty row. I ended up standing to query leaving and the waiting room attendant then gave me permission. I would be curious to know my entered vaccination time compared to the handwritten one on my card.

        (Yes. She did strike me as having the capacity to be that petty.)

        • gsays 10.3.1.1
          6 February 2022 at 1:29 pm

          My understanding is that nurses are trained to be able to aspirate, eg aspiration occurs with all intra-muscular injections.

          The quickly assembled and trained 'vaccination crew' maybe not so.

          It would seem your 'vaccinator' was a nurse, and her data entry colleague may have had a frosty smoko.

  11. Sanctuary 11
    6 February 2022 at 10:55 am

    Rosie Holt has already fooled two actual British MPs into angrily tweeting their condemnation of Tory party MPs.

  12. greywarshark 12
    6 February 2022 at 11:54 am

    Microgreens, an enterprise that's healthy I would say. A bit of good news about green thumbs.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/countrylife/audio/2018829342/marty-s-microgreen-s-and-now-a-bit-more-besides

    Like many other New Zealanders, the couple was forced to pivot.

    "I hate that word," Debbie says smiling. "We had to think about what else we could do."

    Now, they sell fruit and vegetables at a Taupō market twice a week, some picked up from Hawkes Bay and some sourced from Hamilton.

    And they are back growing microgreens, on a smaller scale.

  13. gsays 13
    6 February 2022 at 12:00 pm

    A recent conversation with a nurse chum who had been doing MIQ work in Wellies.

    In her last secondment, there were immunoglobulin blood tests done on the staff to look at, amongst other things, the antibody levels for Covid. She was surprised to find she didn't have any. Lots of possible reasons for that- some folk have a system that is inefficient at sero-converting…

    This led to a conversation along the lines of NZ being a great control population to do some sampling of blood to find out about the immunity levels afforded by Pfizer's drug in the population.

    • Belladonna 13.1
      6 February 2022 at 12:26 pm

      Have friends in the US who are academics in medical research (not directly Covid – but they understand the 'language').
      They are hugely jealous of the gold-standard Covid sequencing done in NZ on every positive sample. Giving real life pictures of how infections are transmitted, and mutations evolve.
      They're saying that this is going to provide material for research papers for decades to come – in actually understanding how the virus behaves (and potentially strategies to mitigate future viral pandemics).

      • weka 13.1.1
        6 February 2022 at 12:44 pm

        is blood testing for sero-converting expensive? Seems like it would be a bloody useful thing for helping vulnerable people manage once covid is widespread.

        • gsays 13.1.1.1
          6 February 2022 at 12:52 pm

          As we both know, with anything, it is not the cost, that is prohibitive, it's the lack of will.

          We have the staff, the means and the lab staff, 'strike while the iron is hot'.

          I would have thought a canny negotiator could have popped a clause in the contract with Pfizer etc that they could contribute to the cost. After all, we are taking part in a long term trial.

      • gsays 13.1.2
        6 February 2022 at 1:21 pm

        The cynic in me is curious if the data that is becoming available from the sequencing is behind the indecent haste to get boosters at 3 months rather than the recommended 6 months.

    • Molly 13.2
      6 February 2022 at 2:07 pm

      Good article on The Conversation a couple of weeks back looking into T-cell response in terms of protection against Covid, that may be of interest.

      COVID: why T cell vaccines could be the key to long-term immunity – Kateryna Kon, The Conversation

      "….When the body is infected, say with a virus, it responds by producing white blood cells called lymphocytes. The main types are B cells, which make antibodies, and T cells, which either support B cell antibody production or act as killer cells to destroy the virus. Some T cells and B cells also become long-lasting memory cells that know what to do if they meet the same infection again.

      B cells and T cells “see” the virus in different ways. Generally speaking, B cells recognise shapes on the outside of the virus, creating antibodies that will lock on to those (a bit like two jigsaw pieces that match). T cells instead recognise bits of the amino acids that build the virus, including bits that might normally be found inside it….

      …

      Many of the vaccines designed to date – including Moderna’s, Pfizer’s and AstraZeneca’s – have focused on just one major target on the coronavirus: its spike protein. These vaccines have been tremendously effective at generating antibodies. They also stimulate a T cell response to the spike.

      But now that we understand more about the role of T cells, the importance of having a broad T cell response, and the issue of antibodies waning, perhaps we should consider refocusing our vaccine strategies on generating T cells and on targeting more than just one protein.

      Work is moving in this direction. Early trials of vaccines that can trigger much more broadly reactive helper and killer T cell responses have been completed, and several other T cell vaccines are also entering trials.

      These T cell vaccines may be the key to boosting existing immunity and generating long-lived protection against severe disease from a whole range of COVID variants. If so, they would be a huge part of the world living more safely with COVID."

  14. Dennis Frank 14
    6 February 2022 at 12:42 pm

    State over-reach via mandate is producing rebellion in Canada:

    Protesters have shut down downtown Ottawa for the past eight days, with some participants waving Confederate or Nazi flags and some saying they wanted to dissolve Canada's government.

    The well-organized blockade, which police say has relied partly on funding from sympathizers in the United States, saw protesters bring in portable saunas on Saturday to combat frigid temperatures.

    GoFundMe took down the Freedom Convoy's donation page on Friday, saying it violated the platform's terms of service due to unlawful activity. The group had raised about C$10.1 million… Elon Musk called the company "professional thieves."

    "This remains … an increasingly volatile and increasingly dangerous demonstration," Ottawa Police Chief Peter Sloly said on Friday, adding protesters in the Canadian capital "remain highly organized, well-funded, extremely committed to resisting all attempts to end the demonstration safely." https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/canadian-cities-brace-more-anti-vaccine-mandate-protests-2022-02-05/

    • gsays 14.1
      6 February 2022 at 12:55 pm

      Funny how I got a another view of the same event with different reporting.

      The, almost obligatory, Nazi reference was dealt with too.

      https://rdln.wordpress.com/2022/02/06/the-truckers-convoy-in-canada-has-been-quite-a-journey/

      Edit. The link has an hour long interview with one of the organisers.
      This is a good example of what Sanctuary raised and supports the point raised in the article, also from Redline;
      https://rdln.wordpress.com/2022/01/18/the-great-awokening/#comment-10574

      • Dennis Frank 14.1.1
        6 February 2022 at 2:01 pm

        That second link took me to an interesting timely book, so I'll post part of the Amazon summary:

        In Bad News: How Woke Media Is Undermining Democracy, Batya Ungar-Sargon reveals how American journalism underwent a status revolution over the twentieth century—from a blue-collar trade to an elite profession. As a result, journalists shifted their focus away from the working class and toward the concerns of their affluent, highly educated peers. With the rise of the Internet and the implosion of local news, America’s elite news media became nationalized and its journalists affluent and ideological. And where once business concerns provided a countervailing force to push back against journalists’ worst tendencies, the pressures of the digital media landscape now align corporate incentives with newsroom crusades.

        The truth is, the moral panic around race, encouraged by today’s elite newsrooms, does little more than consolidate the power of liberal elites and protect their economic interests. And in abandoning the working class by creating a culture war around identity, our national media is undermining American democracy. Bad News explains how this happened, why it happened, and the dangers posed by this development if it continues unchecked.

    • Puckish Rogue 14.2
      6 February 2022 at 3:41 pm

      GoFundMe really shot themselves in the foot over this.

      First they stopped taking donations

      Then they wanted to distribute the donations elsewhere

      Then they, probably under threat of legal action, backtracked and will now refund the money:

      However the truckers will still get some donations:

      https://torontosun.com/news/national/trucker-convoy-finds-alternative-funding-platform

      'GiveSendGo had already raised more than $1.1 million as of 10 a.m. Saturday and tweeted they did it in 12 hours despite bot attacks, noting they raised money five times faster than GoFundMe.'

  15. Blade 15
    6 February 2022 at 1:01 pm

    Luxon just giving a great speech on TV.

    Very, very impressive.

    Unfortunately, going with the times, Luxon inserted token Maori words into his speech. That took the shine off his whaikorero for me.

    He would have been better starting his whaikorero with a solid one minute introduction in Maori.

    That would have earnt my respect.

    • rod 15.1
      6 February 2022 at 5:04 pm

      Blade, 'That would have earnt my respect.' So it wasn't " Very, very impressive after all then was it.’laugh

      • Blade 15.1.1
        6 February 2022 at 5:16 pm

        I think I understand what Weka has been getting at. We must make allowances for all posters and the flavours they bring to a blog.

        I believe we must also allow for our fellow brethren who are not as intellectually well endowed as the rest of us.laugh

      • Robert Guyton 15.1.2
        6 February 2022 at 6:30 pm

        I'm with you, rod – Luxton gave a "great speech", but didn't earn Blade's "respect".

        It's a hard row…

    • Blade 15.2
      6 February 2022 at 5:21 pm

      News at Six should be great.

      Will they show highlights of Luxon's speech?

      And what will be the highlighted edits?

      • Robert Guyton 15.2.1
        6 February 2022 at 6:31 pm

        That speech that didn't earn your respect, Blade?

        Probably a bit of a fizzer then…

  16. Molly 16
    6 February 2022 at 1:59 pm

    Was anyone else aware that NZ police have a policy for investigating any hate incidents that are reported "but doesn’t meet the threshold of being considered a crime."

    (Note: Seems similar to UK College of Policing guidelines that have been found to have been unlawful by the UK Court of Appeal in December last year.

    The High Court held that Humberside Police’s actions breached his Article 10 rights, with Mr Justice Julian Knowles saying: ‘The effect of the police turning up at [Miller’s] place of work because of his political opinions must not be underestimated. To do so would be to undervalue a cardinal democratic freedom. In this country we have never had a Cheka, a Gestapo or a Stasi. We have never lived in an Orwellian society.’

    Miller’s wider challenge to the College of Police’s guidance was rejected. However, the Court of Appeal unanimously overturned that decision today. Giving the court’s ruling, Dame Victoria Sharp said the guidance did ‘sanction or positively approve or encourage unlawful conduct … which violates Article 10’.

    She said ‘perception-based recording’ has a legitimate aim ‘linked to the prevention of disorder or crime and the protection of the rights of others’, which is ‘sufficiently important to justify interfering with the fundamental right to freedom of expression’. However, Sharp held that ‘less intrusive means could have been used to achieve those legitimate aims’.

    The guidance requires the recording of a non-crime hate incident ‘if the perception of the victim or any other person is that it is motivated, for example, by spite or ill will against a protected strand, irrespective of whether there is evidence to support that perception or not’, she said.")

    In the UK, since the policy was implemented in 2014, over 120,000 NCHI (Non-Criminal Hate Incidents) have been reported – and recorded – against individuals.

    "Although not legally a crime — no fines are issued nor will you be imprisoned — those accused of a non-crime hate incident, and who have it recorded, can still face serious repercussions. Anything that was recorded is stored on a crime database for six years. As they show up on a DBS check, employers will have access to this — potentially impacting that person’s future career prospects.

    Since the guidance was introduced in 2014, 120,000 non-crime hate incidents have been recorded by police forces in England and Wales — 2,000 of which were recorded against children under 17."

    In regards to the NZ police policy does anyone know:

    1. How long this has been in place?

    2. How the incidents are investigated and recorded for those not meeting a criminal threshold? And how long that information is retained?

    3. Why the "…is an offence perceived by the victim, or any other person, to be motivated by hostility or prejudice towards a person’s race, religion, sexual orientation, gender identity, disability or age." categories for a hate incident or crime differ from the protected characteristics in the Human Rights Act 1993? And how this was determined (particularly the inclusion of gender identity as category, and the exclusion of sex.)

    • Anker 16.1
      6 February 2022 at 5:16 pm

      This is very chilling Molly. Are they getting ready for the hate speech laws? Where has this come from? Governement? Police themselves?

      Where did you find out about this? This is a massive threat to freedom of speech.

      What will they do after they have investigated this?

      • Molly 16.1.1
        6 February 2022 at 5:54 pm

        I was reading about the Harry Miller Case in the UK, and wondered about how NZ are progressing on the Hate Crime legislation, and googled nz police hate crime just to see if they had a policy. One of the first returns came up with this page on their website:

        Hate crime

        What hate crimes and hate incidents are

        A hate crime is an offence perceived by the victim, or any other person, to be motivated by hostility or prejudice towards a person’s race, religion, sexual orientation, gender identity, disability or age.

        A hate incident is an act perceived to be motivated by hate for these characteristics, but doesn’t meet the threshold of being considered a crime.

        Hate crimes and hate incidents can encompass a broad range of acts, including threatening behaviour, harassment and verbal abuse, online abuse, criminal damage, assault and sexual violence.

        Not as detailed as the UK College of Policing statement, which was implemented in 2014, and now deemed unlawful. However, the lack of transparency and details also obscures how it may be implemented, and how it will impact on the public. More details needed really, I just wondered if there were some among us that knew about it.

        Note: How do you feel about the removal of sex as a category of discrimination and hate in this policy?

    • McFlock 16.2
      6 February 2022 at 5:39 pm

      Well "how long" is probably since that aussie arsehole.

      Although over a year later they were still not doing enough about actual hate crimes, so maybe recording information about incidents the officer on the scene thinks don't count as a crime will still do some good. Or maybe it's an overcompensation that needs to swing back in the other direction. Dunno, yet.

      • Molly 16.2.1
        6 February 2022 at 5:45 pm

        Thanks, McFlock for your reply. (TBH, my heart sank when I saw your name on the reply tab, because of recent inability to communicate effectively after so many years of doing so.)

        I agree, it may be an overreaction, that needs to be reviewed and addressed if it is proven to be an overreach. I have concerns that it could be abused by anyone who wants to use the police to harass without requiring a crime to be committed.

        I also would like to know about how the non-crime incidents are recorded, reported and kept.

        There is also the question regarding the categories not aligning with the Human Rights Act. A deliberate decision was made there without any public discussion.

      • Anker 16.2.2
        6 February 2022 at 6:36 pm

        I think Mc Flock your article shows the difficulties the police have with determining what hate speech is. This is surprizing. Who does decide?

        What happens to the information of hate incidents. What Harry Miller (a former policeman) experienced was that he was contacted at work about a reported hate incident. The police officer talked to him on the phone because he wasn't at work. He told Miller that he was phoning to talk to him about his thinking. Harry had made a number of tweets in the context of the gender self id debate. Initially the policeman didn't tell him which tweet he was being investigated for.

        Harry M asked the cop if he had committed a crime. The cop said no he hadn't. Yet his name went on a data base of people accused of hate incidents. It turned out the person who complained (one person) hadn't even been involved in the debate.

        The data base of hate incidents can be accessed by future employers, screening for voluntary work etc. Harry's point was that as soon as anyone saw a police report with something on it, they would chuck any future applications in the bin.

        So he took Humberside Police and the College of Policing to court. And he won both cases.

        • McFlock 16.2.2.1
          6 February 2022 at 6:46 pm

          I ain't touching the self-id debate with a bargepole.

          If someone has a habit of tweeting or yelling racist abuse at poc, would you want a record of it if they get charged with beating a similar person?

          Would you want that person being a caretaker at a school? A scout leader? Should the organisations at least have the opportunity to make that call?

          Some cases would be "no", but others might be "yes". So I suggest the cops do need to record "incidents" as well as "crimes". They've been doing it for years, just not around hate.

          Whether those records should be part of the standard background check one does for cleaners and so on, that's another question. It isn't tested in court, after all.

          • Anker 16.2.2.1.1
            6 February 2022 at 7:07 pm

            Thanks McFlock. It has been tested in a UK court.

            Like you, I hate the idea of anyone yelling racist abuse. I would like to know if there is any research on what works in terms of people who hold racist beliefs and what helps them to think differently. I very much doubt it is a visit from the police. Obviously if someone gets a job at a school and starts yelling racist abuse it would become a employment issue. I don't believe any school board would condone racist abuse.

            I think the main issue for schools, scout groups, girl guides etc is to protect children from sexual preditors. In other words, safeguarding. I think that sexual abuse of children is so damaging and abhorant that all steps to prevent preditors having access to children are justified.

            I am sure you would agree with this.

          • Molly 16.2.2.1.2
            6 February 2022 at 8:29 pm

            As you say, it's not about self-id. I believe Anker raised that case because it has been tested in a UK court and found to be unlawful.

            It's more about the implementation of such a policy, and the lack of detail around the why's and how's.

            "If someone has a habit of tweeting or yelling racist abuse at poc, would you want a record of it if they get charged with beating a similar person?"

            If a crime is committed, the non-crime is not necessary for conviction. It is hard to see how that makes a difference. Social media platforms should have their own policies for those who publish on their site, and mechanisms that take criminal hate speech off as soon as possible.

            "Would you want that person being a caretaker at a school? A scout leader? Should the organisations at least have the opportunity to make that call?"

            Not in the case where the incident is recorded without any justification, or evidence as to harm. We don't know how they are investigated and/or reported.

            "A hate incident is an act perceived to be motivated by hate for these characteristics, but doesn’t meet the threshold of being considered a crime."

            To me, that reads that the complaint is all that is required. Vexatious use of this policy could result.

            If someone has a habit of tweeting or yelling misogynistic abuse at women, would you want a record of it if they get charged with beating a similar person?

            Well, under this policy it doesn't matter whether you do or not. Sex is not a considered a hate category under this policy.

            • McFlock 16.2.2.1.2.1
              6 February 2022 at 8:47 pm

              I'd say that a history of racist abuse could help classify the assault as a more serious hate attack, rather than a random act of violence. It implies a build up of behaviour, maybe even planning.

              I also think it could be useful from a criminal intelligence point of view: if twenty of these guys with no previous known connection turn up to a private gathering, it's probably not a karaoke party.

              But whether the data is just used for intelligence, or gets logged and left, or becomes part of a police record / record check, that's where things get dicey. And, as you point out, whether it is using appropriate criteria.

              Dunno, really. The aussie's acts brought up that little had been done to address a significant problem in NZ, it wasn't just that dickhead doing that thing. There were NZers cheering him on, and it turned out they were parading themselves around in broad daylight. That's a problem we need to look at ourselves for.

              • Molly …
                6 February 2022 at 10:11 pm

                I'm not a fan of "something has to be done, so let's do something".

                This is policy that looks strangely along those lines. I'm not comfortable with the appearance of it. I'd rather strengthen existing laws, than add arbitrary rules.

                As mentioned, there seems to be an assumption of incident by the existence of a complaint. That's a problem in that police can be used as tool of harassment.

                I was one of the (un)fortunate ones that read the comments online on the 4chan just after the attack, while avoiding the video. Abhorrent, and inhumane. They would have crossed the threshold for hate crime from what I remember.

                • McFlock …
                  6 February 2022 at 10:18 pm

                  I kind of like the approach "something must be done because we're clearly dismissing criminal acts in almost half of the complaints we record and goddamned nazis are wandering around with impunity, so the least we can do is to investigate complaints a bit harder".

                  • Molly …
                    6 February 2022 at 10:22 pm

                    I'd prefer to define the actual problem first so that the solution is fit for purpose.

                    Too many solutions cause greater problems because they are created to solve problems that have been badly defined.

                    You seem determined to excuse this policy. I'm alright with disagreeing on the justification for it.

                    Do you have any comment on the removal of sex as a category for discrimination in terms of this policy?

                    • McFlock …
                      6 February 2022 at 10:55 pm

                      You seem determined to excuse this policy.

                      We actually know little about the NZ policy. All it says is that they'll investigate and document complaints about hate crimes and incidents. This is a good thing. Do any of the bad things you mentioned happen here, or are they actually not a problem (e.g. could it be policy that a complaint of an "incident" won't show up on a police check in NZ)?

                      Should sex be included in the list of characteristics which are sometimes targeted by hate? Sure. Seems reasonable.

                    • Molly …
                      6 February 2022 at 11:07 pm

                      "We actually know little about the NZ policy. All it says is that they'll investigate and document complaints about hate crimes and incidents. This is a good thing."

                      Seem to have lost a comment, so I'll repeat quickly. I have experience of watching a neighbour abuse his much younger partner, and later on me, for several months on a daily basis. The police asked me to record incidents, but refused the recordings when offered. These incidents, though reported, and recorded were not included in any police record. I know this because I had list of the number of incidents at the address over a period of several months.

                      A common abuse pattern, commonly ignored.

                      The police do not have the will and/or resources to meet this criteria. Do you really think the non-crime component of this policy should be a priority?

                      Should sex be included in the list of characteristics which are sometimes targeted by hate? Sure. Seems reasonable.

                      Given that it is a category for discrimination under the Human Rights Act 1993, you would think so. Ergo, it is unreasonable for it to be omitted.

                    • weka []
                      7 February 2022 at 9:53 am

                      are you wanting to change your user name?

                  • Molly …
                    6 February 2022 at 10:38 pm

                    To put in context, I had recordings of a man being abusive towards his young partner, and later on towards me.

                    Recordings were done at the request of the police. When provided with them, they weren't interested.

                    No record. No incident. The occurrence was daily for several months.

                    The police knew this person, and while requesting recordings they didn't want them in the end, and didn't record most of the incidents that occurred. I know this because I had a report of the number of times they were called out over a ten month period.

                    This abuse is common, and commonly ignored.

          • Shanreagh 16.2.2.1.3
            6 February 2022 at 10:57 pm

            Police have been recording 'coming to the attention' of for years, and years decades even.

            By another name for it is police intelligence at a micro or macro level. Police get info about people and possible crimes, they observe as well. Their specialised units have info flowing to them.

            I would sincerely hope that this info is kept and used with proper levels of security. People in my street have been feeding into to the Police for several years about suspicions of dealing in hard drugs at one of the houses in our cul de sac. These are not your friendly wacky baccy crowd.

            It is supplied by various neighbours on the basis that it will be gathered and form part of a whole when it is time for them to act. So far I have seen police cars in the street for at least two raids.

            At the time of Chch police were able to go to sympathisers of the Aussie in a very short time because of good intelligence and 'coming to the attention of'.

            I am not sure that future employers or people being screening for voluntary jobs get access to this in its raw state or at all.

            The vetting service does not make a recommendation or decision regarding someone’s suitability for employment. A Police Vetting result is a point-in-time check that forms one part of any process for determining an applicant’s suitability for any professional registration, appointment, employment, or visa. The decision regarding the applicant’s suitability for a position is the responsibility of the Approved Agency.'

            https://www.police.govt.nz/advice-services/businesses-and-organisations/nz-police-vetting-service

            If you read the procedures you will see the type of information that is provided.

            'The New Zealand Police may release any information they hold if relevant to the purpose of the vetting request. This may include:

            • Conviction History Report
            • Infringement/demerit reports
            • Active charges and warrants to arrest
            • Charges that did not result in a conviction including those that were acquitted, discharged without conviction, diverted, or withdrawn
            • Any interaction had with New Zealand Police considered relevant to the role being vetted, including investigations that did not result in prosecution
            • Information regarding family harm where the applicant was the victim, offender or witness to an incident or offence, primarily in cases where the role being vetted for takes place in the applicant's home environment where exposure to physical or verbal violence could place vulnerable persons at emotional or physical risk
            • Information subject to name suppression where that information is necessary to the purpose of the vet

            All individuals required to be Police vetted must sign the NZ Police Request and Consent Form, which authorises the disclosure of the above information.'

            • McFlock 16.2.2.1.3.1
              6 February 2022 at 11:03 pm

              Interesting, thanks.

            • Molly 16.2.2.1.3.2
              6 February 2022 at 11:10 pm

              Thanks, Shanreagh.

              Do you have any info about the hate incident component of the policy though and how it is used/recorded given that it is reliant on the complainant’s perception rather than a crime?

              • Shanreagh …
                6 February 2022 at 11:36 pm

                No I don't not about hate crimes in particular….that was before my time learning about the 'coming to attention of' and police intelligence…did it for a university Diploma 30 or so years ago so bit out of date with the exact things being collected.

                I only know that there is a large amount of intelligence collected.

                Much of the info coming from people falls into the category of 'reliant on the perception of the people giving it' as if we pass on say suspicious cars/interactions on our street we cannot know if any of this is a crime. If we pass on a concerns about someone shouting or writing misogynistic slurs it can form part of the intelligence used by the Police.

                We have to assure ourselves that this info will be used, and used wisely. That will be the big test.

              • Shanreagh …
                7 February 2022 at 12:50 am

                Molly I have quickly skimmed the judgement and the key difference between what I understood the collecting of intelligence and what happened in the Harry Miller case is this

                'On my reading of the Guidance, the relevant part of Section 6.4 is concerned not with recording, which must be done, but counsels the police to be proportionate in their response to an incident that has been recorded (“it is important that officers do not overreact to non-crime incidents…'

                From my understanding these non-crime collections in the NZ Police were not used as the basis of investigating a possible crime but in helping pinpoint a propensity for a crime to occur, or to be referred when dealing with a case where it is clear that a crime may have occurred. So if 'Hector' had been been sending unwanted mail to someone that might be recorded in police intelligence. If Hector did this five or more times and was reported but complainants did not want to press any charges, it would be added to the intelligence. Police might warn him that a complaint had been received and enter this on the intelligence.

                Hector later sends envelopes that are filled with smelly substances that look like faeces then Police would investigate and discuss if a more serious charge might sustainable bearing in mind the background or they might think the 5 earlier complaints ought to be investigated more deeply as well.

                From the Judgement

                'So that, for example the evidence of Mr Giannasi is that low-level incidents are often pieces in a local jigsaw of information and intelligence that enables police to be aware of community tensions and take action to prevent minor issues or a series of minor issues escalating into something more serious'

                See above this was one of the aims of this recording …..help with Policing.

                'The safeguards he identified in the Guidance were first, an element of discretion as to whether to record – it has to be applied in a common-sense manner by police forces; secondly, the Guidance expressly provides that it must be applied in a proportionate and Convention-compliant manner [234]; thirdly, retention is subject to safeguards, e.g. the NSIR, the DPA 1998 [235] and fourthly, on disclosure, there is a framework of laws and policies in place, the legality of which has been upheld [236].'

                Reading this Judgement the UK police made a real hash of this. Their policy & procedures on 'coming to the attention' includes such undefinable phrases as 'commonsense', it does not include the likelihood and deal with the possibility that info received may be 'nutter material' or what the Judge called 'irrational complaints'. The better part said that a response to material that had been included should be 'proportionate'.

                We run things quite differently here in NZ.

                I would hope that activities that prima facie are crimes would be treated as crimes here and not relegated to just being recorded; and that Police here would not run what seems to be a lower level crime investigative process as they seemed to do with with Harry Miller.

                Very great care is needed as we know. Hopefully our Police will see the hash that their English colleagues made and learn what not to do.

                Sorry for length….I missed this, it is a victory for those of us who have said all along in the debate that having a view and expressing it does not constitute hate speech.

      • Anker 16.2.3
        6 February 2022 at 6:40 pm

        Do you think hate speech laws would have stopped the masecre? I know his local gun club did report him to the police. Was that a hate crime under the act then?

        • McFlock 16.2.3.1
          6 February 2022 at 6:57 pm

          Did they? Interesting. In which case they might have decided he wasn't a fit&proper person, so yes, maybe greater emphasis on hate "incidents" (let alone doing hate speech laws) could have prevented it when they took away his guns.

          • Anker 16.2.3.1.1
            6 February 2022 at 7:09 pm

            Thanks McFlock. It has been tested in a UK court.

            Like you, I hate the idea of anyone yelling racist abuse. I would like to know if there is any research on what works in terms of people who hold racist beliefs and what helps them to think differently. I very much doubt it is a visit from the police. Obviously if someone gets a job at a school and starts yelling racist abuse it would become a employment issue. I don't believe any school board would condone racist abuse.

            I think the main issue for schools, scout groups, girl guides etc is to protect children from sexual preditors. In other words, safeguarding. I think that sexual abuse of children is so damaging and abhorant that all steps to prevent preditors having access to children are justified.

            I am sure you would agree with this.

            • McFlock 16.2.3.1.1.1
              6 February 2022 at 7:42 pm

              The main objective of such institutions in their selection of candidates is to select adults who will be good role models for the kids. Sexual abuse is about the worst penalty for failure in that objective, but it shouldn't be the only criteria upon which role models are assessed. It's a pretty low bar.

              And "it" being tested in an overseas court is of mild interest to any such practise in NZ. For example, do NZ police checks involve that sort of intelligence? Do they produce a binary response? Do cops go to unannounced visits to the workplaces of people involved in hate "incidents"?

              • Anker …
                6 February 2022 at 8:19 pm

                "do NZpolice checks visit workplaces ?" etc. I don't know as I only just found out about it, but it warrants further investigation.

                Sexual abuse goes beyond ensring someone is "a good role model". It is a crime and it has extremely detrimental consequences for most of its victims.

                You want to keep the gender id out of this debate, however it is inextricably linked to this debate. Women in the UK have had the police visit them and charges laid for stating gender critical views. The stakes are high for women who believe in the biological reality of sex.

                You of course have every right not to respond to what I have said. Your choice. I would never try to compel speech.

                • McFlock …
                  6 February 2022 at 8:31 pm

                  I don't want to touch gender ID because we are intractably divided on that issue. However, hate incidents (as opposed to the crime of hate speech) go far beyond that issue.

                  I'll also note that what happens in other jurisdictions often bears little resemblance to NZ practises, even if they bear the same names.

                  Feel free to do your own investigation of what the actual NZ practise entails.

                  Will they sexually abuse the kids" is not the only criterion upon which scout leaders, mentors, etc should be vetted, surely? Maybe "will they try to turn the kids into Nazis" is something to look at, too?

          • Anker 16.2.3.1.2
            6 February 2022 at 7:11 pm

            I don't know what the arsehole said to the gun club, but rather than hate speech it would have come under fitness to own a gun. Like the Racheal Stewart incident. After an investigation (which was about gun ownership, it was deemed she was an appropriate person to own a gun)

            • McFlock 16.2.3.1.2.1
              6 February 2022 at 7:44 pm

              Sure, and maybe what he said was different to what she said, was more extreme and more frequent. Or maybe the collection of guns would have found the high capacity magazines, and a search resulting from those may have led to the manifesto being found on his machine.

              But we'll never know.

              • Anker …
                6 February 2022 at 8:26 pm

                Yes we will never know if an intervention might have stopped the atrocity.

                I am inclined to think that there is very little that can stop very determined people, but understand that most of us would comtemplate "what if".

                Praise for the police who interupted further blood shed at great risk to themselves.

        • Shanreagh 16.2.3.2
          6 February 2022 at 11:02 pm

          This is exactly the kind of purpose that this 'coming to the attention of' information is most useful for.

          I had not known the gun club had reported him…..I did read that an arms officer (police or military not sure which) had visited the club in a personal capacity and had not been impressed with them after seeing and hearing such things as racist talk and prominent symbols such as the cars with the US Confederate flag on them

          The Royal Commission did find that there was a disconnect between the info being collected and being used on the ground as it were. Failings on issues.

      • Chris T 16.2.4
        6 February 2022 at 11:17 pm

        Actually is quite an interesting point.

        By "enough" who do you actually think should get to decide what is a hate crime?

        For the pretty obvious reason the Aussie scumbag was missed when shouldn't have been, but not always as obvious.

        Certain social media posts? T-shirt words? Public rantings?

        I lived in London for a while and there was some old dude who used to walk around just ranting to himself swearing about killing people. They tried to help him, but think it was a drug issue from his past. Just ended up dying at some stage I think.

        But was basically harmless, as even my wife could have just punched him in the face or kicked him in the nuts if needed. He seemed to just freak kids out, and everyone just kept an eye on him who lived near in case he did damage to himself.

        • McFlock 16.2.4.1
          6 February 2022 at 11:23 pm

          By "enough" who do you actually think should get to decide what is a hate crime?

          I believe the current situation is that criminality of action is determined by courts and juries.

          I am happy with that situation.

          The problem seems to be that half the time the police were deciding something was not criminal when there was a reasonable case to be made to the contrary.

          • Chris T 16.2.4.1.1
            6 February 2022 at 11:40 pm

            "The problem seems to be that half the time the police were deciding something was not criminal when there was a reasonable case to be made to the contrary."

            Far call. Especially the Aussie piece of filth.

            Just think sometimes it is not as easy to navigate.

            Just a bit of a free speech type of person no matter how much the talking annoys me. I get to do it as well and explain to them why they a f'ing idiots.

            Edit: At least if they are allowed to do it I get the right to reply rather than some weirdo underground web thing

            • McFlock 16.2.4.1.1.1
              6 February 2022 at 11:56 pm

              No, it's not easy. But there's also a difference between comments that are an annoyance and comments that are threatening, harrassing, and trying to instill fear.

              And then there's puffed-up screaming of that content.

              • Chris T …
                7 February 2022 at 12:24 am

                Agree with that.

                As I say. I personally find it interesting. Especially internet wise. One of the things the web has done is give everyone a voice bigger than they would normally have.

                Don't get me wrong. It has more up sides obviously.

                But you end up with people saying very odd things I presume they would never say to other people in person.

                I am no psychoanalyst or brain expert but have always assumed this could manifest into behaviour in real life if people get the two confused.

                There is actually a Wiki article on it, but don't want to post as would freak people out.

          • Anker 16.2.4.1.2
            7 February 2022 at 10:45 am
            • I agree with you McFlock! Good we have found some common ground.

            I think the difficulty is, when does speech cross over the threshold into hate? So if I say “I am sick of Maori being used on the tv” (my real view is the opposite) some people might call that hate speech, I think. Far better to ask questions of them, to understand and get them to account for their view imo.

            One of my fears is that in the hands of some people anything that doesn’t support a particular stance is seen as hateful. The propensity for certain groups of people (I am trying hard not to use the word woke) to attack others opinions and call for cancellation terrifies me. The most absurd example I recall about this is the cancelling of a Charlie Chapman musical by Christchurch university students because of Chapman’s relationships with women. (From what I recall Chapman married women who were barely above the age of consent, although his final marriage to a much younger woman lasted many years till his. death and was reportedly happy. There was a court case around him, but he was found not guilty.

            Chapman had had an incredibly deprived childhood and was either a communist or a Marxist. Why the f.. cancel him? Do the show and then hand out leaflets about his life stating what was problematic about about him….This is a far more enlightened way to deal with things. It gives people the chance to learn and consider your point of view. Or even host a debate about him. Let’s find out more what about him is so problematic

            the best way to defeat unhelpful ideas, even hateful ideas (unless they are too deeply engrained and the speaker has psychopathology eg Chch Gunman) is to debate them.
            Currently ideas are cancelled. Next step will be hate speech laws and police visiting you because you have said something that someone has taken offence at. This is what happened to Harry Miller in the UK. He posted amongst other things a rather tasteless poem and one person took offence (for the record, I didn’t like or approve of the poem at all). For this he was visited by the police and placed on a hate incident register. The judge hearing the case said this had a chilling effect and likened it to 1984,

            I have found myself listening to a range of views, eg the clip someone posted by Glen Grenwold (I think that’s his name) about Joe Rogan, which is very interesting btw. I also try and read a range of views across the right and left spectrum. Some of the views I very much disagree with. But there is very little that I want cancelled. When I hear someone’s views and I disagree, this challenges me to form my own argument. I no longer exist in an eco chamber

  17. Keith Christie 17
    6 February 2022 at 3:00 pm

    Looked like he was trying to suck up to the Maori Party to me.

  18. Puckish Rogue 18
    6 February 2022 at 3:11 pm

    Anyone been following the Canadian trucking situation, getting very interesting.

      • Puckish Rogue 18.1.1
        6 February 2022 at 6:07 pm

        I just wonder how much of the information around covid we get from news sources are sponsored by Pfizer

        https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/pfizer-vaccination-ads-news-sponsorships-research/

        • McFlock 18.1.1.1
          6 February 2022 at 6:16 pm

          Which information do you think might be suspect?

          • Puckish Rogue 18.1.1.1.1
            6 February 2022 at 6:46 pm

            How can anyone be sure with the amounts of money sloshing around

            Look at the US, the media and Democratic party (although I repeat myself) they both say how bad Florida is with their mask mandates (or lack of) yet they'll happily party down there, maskless, when it suits them

            Is Big Pharma trying to push the message that we must have more and more booster shots (at what 36 bucks a pop) we might not actually need

            Look at the changes in messages, 2 weeks to flatten the curve, vaccination protects you from the virus then it doesn't etc etc

            • McFlock 18.1.1.1.1.1
              6 February 2022 at 6:51 pm

              Try formulating a coherent and specific answer, rather than simply typing out your stream of consciousness.

              Do you think hundreds of thousands of americans have been killed by an infectious disease?

              Do you think this disease occasionally mutates?

              Do you think these mutations might affect efficacy of vaccines against that disease, such that the vaccines might not protect as well against infection (separate from causing symptoms) from the new variants of disease?

              • Puckish Rogue …
                6 February 2022 at 7:10 pm

                Do you think Big Pharma wants to continue selling vaccines (make money) for as long as they can

                Do you think Big Pharma companies have been fined billions for unethical behaviour

                Do you think governments prefer having less power over its citizens or more

                Do you think governments and the msm would admit to being wrong

                • McFlock …
                  6 February 2022 at 7:46 pm

                  yes

                  yes

                  some would prefer less, some more.

                  yes.
                  Now you.

                  • Puckish Rogue …
                    6 February 2022 at 7:53 pm

                    Sorry but for whatever technical reason it's too dam difficult typing this out on my phone

                    I'll have to pick this up tomorrow

                  • Puckish Rogue …
                    8 February 2022 at 12:17 pm
                    • Yes

                    – Yes

                    – Yes

                    Now then do you think the governments should have told the population all of the above

                    Do you think the governments got it wrong by not passing on this information

                    Do you think governments have experimented on people in the past

                    Do you think Pfizer have experimented on people in the past

                    Do you understand why some people, given all of the above, might be wary of taking a vaccine (which isn't a vaccine as everyday people understand it)

                    • McFlock …
                      8 February 2022 at 12:35 pm

                      Now then do you think the governments should have told the population all of the above

                      "all of the above"?

                      ISTR they did say:

                      • hundreds of thousands of americans have been killed by an infectious disease
                      • that this disease occasionally mutates?
                      • that these mutations might affect efficacy of vaccines against that disease, such that the vaccines might not protect as well against infection (separate from causing symptoms) from the new variants of disease?

                      Do you think the governments got it wrong by not passing on this information

                      But they did.

                      Do you think governments have experimented on people in the past

                      yes

                      Do you think Pfizer have experimented on people in the past

                      Not only that, I think the trials are ongoing, and generally well documented.

                      Do you understand why some people, given all of the above, might be wary of taking a vaccine

                      Yes. But you also miss out the deliberate undermining of trust in the public health sector for political gain, as well as the contagious effect of one particular demagogue's brand of mad.

                      (which isn't a vaccine as everyday people understand it)

                      Bullshit.

                    • Puckish Rogue …
                      8 February 2022 at 12:44 pm

                      'But you also miss out the deliberate undermining of trust in the public health sector for political gain, as well as the contagious effect of one particular demagogue's brand of mad.'

                      Finally something we can both agree on:

                      https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/563771-guess-who-undermined-public-confidence-in-vaccines

                      You say 'bullshit', I say:

                      https://www.hhs.gov/immunization/basics/work/index.html

                      'Vaccines are very effective — and they’re the best protection against many serious diseases. Most people who get vaccinated will have immunity (protection) against the disease.'

                    • McFlock …
                      8 February 2022 at 12:45 pm

                      'Vaccines are very effective — and they’re the best protection against many serious diseases. Most people who get vaccinated will have immunity (protection) against the disease.'

                      Do you think this is incorrect in some way?

        • weka 18.1.1.2
          6 February 2022 at 7:58 pm

          I just wonder how much of the information around covid we get from news sources are sponsored by Pfizer

          You know how some of us go on about how neoliberalism is corrupt and is harming society…?

          Big Pharma are capitalists just like Monsanto, the tobacco companies, the oil companies and so on. It's kind of late in the day to be asking if they are corrupt, but cool you are finally getting there 🙂

          • Sabine 18.1.1.2.1
            6 February 2022 at 8:03 pm

            and yet, here we are pretending that a 'vaccine mandate' is something that we need and that the people that demonstrate against or complain about it are the ones that are out of order.

            I once asked the question what happens when a. the governments no longer pay for the 3 monthly jabs (or two monthly, or monthly, or biweekly 🙂 ) and what happens when double/triple/quadruple jabbed is no longer considered fully jabbed.

            • weka 18.1.1.2.1.1
              6 February 2022 at 10:29 pm

              Can't see how the government would stop paying for covid vaccination. They want as many people vaccinate as possible, keeping it free supports that.

              Don't really see what your comment has to do with the problems with big pharma.

  19. gsays 19
    6 February 2022 at 3:28 pm

    Having become an expert, since watching the qualifying for the women's snowboarding yesty, I encourage folk to watch the finals on as we speak.

    Zoi Sadowski-Synnott had a wee stumble in her 2nd run, after being nudged from the rop spot. All finalists have another run.

    • Whispering Kate 19.1
      6 February 2022 at 3:55 pm

      Yes I am watching and very addictive it is. I marvel at the courage to soar up in the air and do these acrobatic rolls. Wonders of being young and fearless. And our Zoi has won gold, fantastic and well deserved.

    • gsays 19.2
      6 February 2022 at 3:58 pm

      She's done it! First gold for Aotearoa in the Winter Olympics.

      A 92 point run, 5 clear of 2nd.

      Zoi Sadowski-Synnott was mobbed by her podium mates at the end of her run. A heart warming scene.

  20. Chris T 20
    6 February 2022 at 3:57 pm

    duplicate sorry

  21. McFlock 21
    6 February 2022 at 4:35 pm

    Another convoy of dropkicks – parade of fools?

    Funnily enough, apparently their trucks can wear masks even if the drivers can't.

  22. Just Saying 22
    6 February 2022 at 5:51 pm

    https://youtu.be/S0tFgPG26vA

    Glenn Greenwald : What explains elite contempt for Joe Rogan?

    This feels futile. I'm posting this not for the Rogan subject but for the discussion of 'why'?

    For me this posting this clip is a small beginning of answering the question of how politics become so tribal that so much genuine thought and questioning came to be excluded. How did it become about joining a team and playing for that team as if politics were a sport rather than being about our real lives, our thoughts, and our hearts. How did something so damn important become so ossified?

    I think there is a little nugget of the answer in this. This clip touches on the manipulation that keeps us in our boxes. Late at night we may ponder why nothing we do ever makes any substantial difference. And maybe it leads into a troubling self doubt. Maybe we need to keep following that thought. Maybe we need to ask: ''what happened to me – what happened to us?''

    When did I start willingly start stuffing my own mind into a tiny little box?

    • Puckish Rogue 22.1
      6 February 2022 at 6:04 pm

      Its funny to note just how scared the msm are of a former MMA fighter turned actor and a comedian/podcaster

      • Robert Guyton 22.1.1
        6 February 2022 at 6:27 pm

        coz, loopy.

        • Puckish Rogue 22.1.1.1
          6 February 2022 at 6:34 pm

          What is loopy about Giba Carano and Joe Rogan?

          • Robert Guyton 22.1.1.1.1
            6 February 2022 at 7:29 pm

            What's loopy about Joe Rogan?

            You jest, surely!

            • Puckish Rogue 22.1.1.1.1.1
              6 February 2022 at 7:39 pm

              No Robert I'm not jesting.

              I'd like you to tell me why you think Joe Rogan and/or Gina Carano are loopy

              With links or proof.

              • Robert Guyton …
                6 February 2022 at 7:52 pm

                To quote you, Rogan's "a former MMA fighter".

                So, we should respect his world view?

                He's guy who likes to bash other guys.

                • Blade …
                  6 February 2022 at 8:01 pm

                  ''So, we should respect his world view?

                  He's a guy who likes to bash other guys.''

                  I believe his last opponent was frog marched into the ring with a gun held to to his head.

                  Poor chap.

                  https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1014461-mma-what-draws-people-to-the-sport-of-mixed-martial-arts

                  At least you haven't called for MMA to be banned like many liberal commentators suggest.

                  I guess all the people across the world who watch MMA are not to have their worldviews respected, too?

                • Puckish Rogue …
                  6 February 2022 at 8:02 pm

                  If you're going to quote me Robert then at least get it right

                  Gina Carano is the MMA fighter I was referring too

                  Joe Rogan had a couple of kick boxing bouts when young but gave up competing for comedy

                  So no Robert Joe isn't a guy who likes to "bash other guys" but he is a guy that likes to talk to other guys (and girls) and learn about different things

                  Try again Robert and I'll let you know tomorrow what you're wrong about

                  • Robert Guyton …
                    6 February 2022 at 8:28 pm

                    "Joe Rogan had a couple of kick boxing bouts when young"

                    So he was a guy who wanted to "bash other guys" but couldn't foot it, so took up…comedy?

                    Solid.

                    I'd hitch my wagon to his star, any day!

                    • Puckish Rogue …
                      8 February 2022 at 12:19 pm

                      Robert you still haven't answered my question:

                      'I'd like you to tell me why you think Joe Rogan and/or Gina Carano are loopy'

                      'With links or proof.'

                • McFlock …
                  6 February 2022 at 8:11 pm

                  I think Rogan only was a commentator on it?
                  Carano was a fighter, went into acting, had some good roles, then fucked it up with her personality. Not sure how she got into the thread.

                  • Puckish Rogue …
                    8 February 2022 at 12:26 pm

                    She didn't 'fuck it up with her personality' she refused to bow down to the twitter mob

                    Hollywood say they promote 'stunning and brave', 'strong' women, who stand up for what they believe in, as long as what they believe in is what the corporations believe in

                    Gina Carano stood up to Disney, social media and the twitter mob, she was one of the main reasons womens mma took off

                    She is by any and all definitions a 'strong' woman but shes still just one woman yet massive sections of the left are scared of her

                    Funny ol' world we live in

                    • McFlock …
                      8 February 2022 at 12:44 pm

                      She didn't 'fuck it up with her personality' she refused to bow down to the twitter mob

                      Intractable difference on this one: One issue might be a bit of a beat-up, but even if you ignore the "woke" stuff, there's the claiming voter fraud in the 2020 election and dropping the Holocaust comparison. That's some big shit you have to know will make you less marketable to a broad Hollywood audience. If you're in an industry that wants bland positivity, then you need to know when to backpedal a bit – "The Rock" comes to mind on that. His social media presence is largely shy of any direct controversy, from what I gather. Does anyone even know which party he'd support? Though he does like pitching that tequila 🙂

                      But Carano fucked her career by showing her true colours.

                    • Puckish Rogue …
                      8 February 2022 at 1:04 pm

                      'Intractable difference on this one: One issue might be a bit of a beat-up, but even if you ignore the "woke" stuff, there's the claiming voter fraud in the 2020 election and dropping the Holocaust comparison.'

                      – Ok so heres some other people that've suggested voter fraud or similar:

                      https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/hillary-clinton-trump-is-an-illegitimate-president/2019/09/26/29195d5a-e099-11e9-b199-f638bf2c340f_story.html

                      https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/04/28/magazine/stacey-abrams-election-georgia.html

                      https://www.politico.com/story/2019/06/28/jimmy-carter-russia-investigation-trump-lost-1387634

                      Heres Caranos 'Holocaust comparison' tweets and a few other:'

                      https://nypost.com/2021/02/11/see-gina-caranos-tweets-and-posts-that-got-her-fired/

                      Heres Pedro Pascals (the star of The Mandalorian), can you spot the double standard:

                      https://boundingintocomics.com/2020/11/07/the-mandalorian-and-wonder-woman-actor-pedro-pascal-compares-donald-trump-voters-to-nazis/

                      The Rocks going to get cancelled soon, I don't know if you watched WWE during the RAW era but damn hes got some explaining to do:

                      https://radaronline.com/p/dwayne-johnson-controversial-past-woman-tranny-chinese-impression/

                      Thats not the worst of it either, especially the treatment of women during the Raw era

                      Also his tequila, probably, sucks

                    • McFlock …
                      8 February 2022 at 1:10 pm

                      Dude, "or similar" doesn't cut it. Like I said, maybe she would have weathered one issue, but if you offer a buffet selection of things to piss people off then your marketability goes down. And marketability is important for an actor.

                    • Puckish Rogue …
                      8 February 2022 at 1:27 pm

                      Well it depends on what you want out of life, she comes from an extremely wealthy family so she doesn't have to kowtow or bend the knee to work

                      Shes now with the Daily Wire doing more than she ever would with Disney and as a plus she won't be made to apologize for something she shouldn't need to or have to take part in 'struggle sessions'

                      If you're actually interested in her side of the story, theres this:

                    • McFlock …
                      8 February 2022 at 1:31 pm

                      You brought her up, it took me a while to remember who she was.

                      Frankly, if she's found other career opportunities that tend towards her brand of loopy, then I'm not sure what the problem is. Lots of people have moved out of industries they weren't suited for.

                    • Puckish Rogue …
                      8 February 2022 at 1:39 pm

                      I bought both of them because of just how scared multinational companies, social media companies, msm and the twiiter mob are of two people.

                      Also its interesting how your opinion of Gina is formed by those same groups and not by listening to what she has to say and her call her loopy

                      Doesn't that bother you, how easily you're manipulated?

                    • McFlock …
                      8 February 2022 at 1:46 pm

                      Dude, nobody is "scared".

                      If someone ain't marketable, people don't watch their stuff.

                      What am I going to do, watch a video that would need to be incredibly long to explain away every instance where she wasn't loopy, just misunderstood? And to Ben shapiro, apparently – a known fuckwit. That doesn't look promising, and I don't care enough to bother even if it was someone without his agenda.

                      pfft. Get over yourself.

                    • Puckish Rogue …
                      8 February 2022 at 1:57 pm

                      Of course they've scared.

                      She wasn't just fired, Disney tried to make sure she'd never be hired by anyone again (and Disney owns damn near everything):

                      “Gina Carano is not currently employed by Lucasfilm and there are no plans for her to be in the future,” a Lucasfilm spokesperson said in a statement.

                      “Nevertheless, her social media posts denigrating people based on their cultural and religious identities are abhorrent and unacceptable,” the statement added.

                      She didn't but that doesn't matter a bit to the twitter mob

                      All because she refused to add pronouns to her twitter bio

                      Yeah why bother watching something to find out someones side of the story, what a strange notion indeed

                    • McFlock …
                      8 February 2022 at 2:54 pm

                      All because she refused to add pronouns to her twitter bio

                      yeah, and Jeremy Clarkson was fired just because he threw a tanty over steak 🙄

                    • Puckish Rogue …
                      8 February 2022 at 3:05 pm

                      Yeah need to stop believing everything the media tells you.

                      This all started when some twitter activists demanded requested Gina change the pronouns in her twitter bio

                      She politely listened then declined to change her bio because why should she if she doesn't want to

                      Also Dave Filoni and Jon Favreau haven't changed theirs, and the Bobs Iger and Chapek haven't either so sexism maybe…

                      Once she refused she became a target, the twitter mob then wanted her to suffer cancelled

                      Gina stood up to the twitter mob, Disney, social media, msm and she choose to not play the supplicant game expected of her.

                    • McFlock …
                      8 February 2022 at 3:09 pm

                      Whatever, dude. Either way, nobody is irreplaceable and Disney made the choice on what would earn them more money.

                    • Puckish Rogue …
                      8 February 2022 at 3:20 pm

                      They sure do.

                      Black Widow

                      Shang-Chi

                      The Eternals

                      Yep Disney has their pulse on what the customers want.

                      Thats sarcasm, Disney are bleeding money and its great to see.

              • Robert Guyton …
                8 February 2022 at 12:32 pm

                I've listened to/watched many of Rogan's interviews – I reckon, based on the views he expressed therein, he's loopy.

                • Puckish Rogue …
                  8 February 2022 at 12:46 pm

                  No you haven't Robert, you're lying.

                  At best you've watched clips, taken out of context, but you haven't watched 'many of Rogan's interviews'

                  [lprent: see RGs reply. ]

                  • Robert Guyton …
                    8 February 2022 at 12:56 pm

                    Well, Pucky, I'm mightily offended by your slur on my integrity and politely ask that you retract it and apologise. It's not something usually tolerated here on TS, I believe, nor should it be, especially given that you have no way at all of knowing one way or the other, and also that you are completely wrong. I have been watching Joe Rogan for years, not just in the past week or so, as a result of the Spotify situation. Some of the interviews I watched were with people who were promoting the use of powerful psychedelic drugs; DMT, LSD and ayahuasca, and I felt Rogan's comments around those were irresponsible and loopy. I have also found his commentaries on MMA etc. fighters to be unpleasant, but of course, those views are my own. In any case, I await your apology.

                    • Puckish Rogue …
                      8 February 2022 at 1:20 pm

                      Nothing that couldn't be found with a quick google search however I will retract what I said about you lying.

                      But its very odd for someone to say 'I have been watching Joe Rogan for years, not just in the past week or so, as a result of the Spotify situation.' but not know anything abut his backstory.

                      He talks about martial arts quite frequently in his podcasts because its something hes interested in yet you thought he was the mma fighter I was referring to

                      You thought he gave up kick boxing because he 'couldn't foot it' when the reality was there was virtually no money it and a high risk of injury which, again, is something he talks about

                      You also thought Neil Young and Joni Mitchell removing their songs of Spotify would somehow have an effect on the worlds most popular podcaster (something you'd easily know if you followed him for years)

                      But sure Robert I'll take you at your word when say you've watched Joe Rogan 'for years' and I fully retract my statement that you lied and I apologize for any hurt my statement of you being a liar may have caused.

                      Also Robert I’m still waiting:

                      ‘I’d like you to tell me why you think Joe Rogan and/or Gina Carano are loopy’

                      Since you’ve watched so many of Joe Rogans interviews it should be easy to find a link or time stamp or something

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      8 February 2022 at 3:52 pm

                      Jeeze, Pucky! You're hopeless today!

                      Beyond this comment, I'll let it go – your claims about what I thought, are complete mis-fires, but I don't care.

                      I could (truthfully) claim to have watched dozens and dozens of MMA "bouts" as well, but you'd demand I link to them or provide a "time-stamp".

                      Sometimes your instincts are good enough.

                      Here, they're rubbish.

  23. Peter 23
    6 February 2022 at 5:52 pm

    I don't like it when bad weather affects people as has happened on the West Coast in the past week.

    If it cuts up rough down south over the next days and roads are closed, Strait crossings can't happen and it's torrential in Wellington when the convoy arrives there I'll be thinking of them.

    They're on about freedom and just wanting "to have their say and ask questions and get answers.” I see the Voices for Freedom webpage shows some of their placards – "Not once has the Govt talked about Health." Censorship is an issue too. Censorship isn't a problem for their own material – they simply put out anything including dishonest stupid shit.

  24. Blade 24
    6 February 2022 at 6:18 pm

    Crikey…snowboarder comes first on the TV news. indecision

    • Sabine 24.1
      6 February 2022 at 6:35 pm

      bread and circuses.

      • Blade 24.1.1
        6 February 2022 at 7:06 pm

        Interesting phrase. I have not heard it before.

        ”noun. something, as extravagant entertainment, offered as an expedient means of pacifying discontent or diverting attention from a source of grievance.”

        • Sabine 24.1.1.1
          6 February 2022 at 7:44 pm

          Definition of panem et circenses

          : bread and circuses : sustenance and entertainment provided by government to appease public discontent

          it dates back to the romans

  25. Molly 25
    6 February 2022 at 6:31 pm

    I've been looking for resources about sexual consent after reading an article on Northern Ireland's Health advice for transgender youth (pdf link) where disclosure of your transgender status was considered up to you.

    As a trans or non-binary person, it’s up to you if and when you disclose that you’re not cisgender. Everybody does this in different ways and at different times. Disclosure isn’t something specific to trans people – sexual desire, HIV status, disability, medical history and lots of things are disclosed to partners all the time.

    You don’t have to disclose to every partner you have, but you should consider how disclosing (or not) affects your safety. It’s hard to say when’s best to disclose that you’re trans or non-binary, but many people prefer to do it when they’re not alone or in a compromising position, with other people they can contact for help if needs be.

    If you’re going home with someone, it’s a good idea to make sure a friend knows that time you’ll be home at, and where you’re going. Your partner should be OK with your friends making sure you’re OK.

    Consenting to sex

    It’s important to make sure everyone in a relationship is consenting and comfortable with sexual activity – both you and your partners. If anyone involved says they’re uncomfortable with any sexual activity, whether before, 14 during or afterwards, stop! It’s good to talk between yourselves about what you’re comfortable with, and if you know of any, activities or parts of your body which are off limits.

    It struck me that the advice is a contradiction. If a person has a sexual preference, or orientation, and their partner is aware of it – aware they are not included in it – and continues towards intimacy without disclosure, then the ability of that person to consent knowingly is bypassed.

    I had a look for NZ resources on this issue, but haven't found anything that addresses this specific issue.

    I consider this omission to be detrimental to healthy sexual relations between consenting adults as information is withheld. I would be concerned for the well-being of any person, young or otherwise, who became distressed after finding out their sexual partner was not of the sex they preferred.

    Does anyone have any suggestions on how this situation can be solved to the benefit of all, while recognising sex orientation is to do with biological sex not gender?

    • Sabine 25.1
      6 February 2022 at 7:48 pm

      You don’t have to disclose to every partner you have,

      yes they should disclose to every partner. If one is trans – with artificial wrong sex genitalia, or with their original plumbing, they should always disclose. But then maybe sexual preferences are just for those that are trans, and those that are not trans are to provide sex and not complain if they don't like the fake vagina, fake penis, or lady penis and man vagina.

      • Molly 25.1.1
        6 February 2022 at 10:18 pm

        "yes, they should disclose to every partner."

        My response is the same as yours. Yet the advice given by the National Health service is that this information is not necessary, although they are talking about sexual relations and consent.

        Has anyone reading this got a reasonable explanation about why this advice is given to young people in regards to consent?

  26. pat 26
    6 February 2022 at 7:46 pm

    I drove from Mid Canterbury to Christchurch today (and back again)……the number of people grouped in the towns on my trip holding all manner of placards and flags was surprising, as was the constant stream of vehicles heading north similarly adorned on my return trip…..especially in a DHB with a 98% (eligible) double vaccinated population.

    What is it about flags?

    • Robert Guyton 26.1
      6 February 2022 at 7:54 pm

      Did they have a unified message?

      or were they…all over the place, signifying nothing..?

      Seems dishwater-weak, to me (not Canada, is it…)

      • pat 26.1.1
        6 February 2022 at 8:02 pm

        Lol…all over the place..we had "the vaccine will kill you" in Rolleston all the way through to "we stand with the teachers" in Tinwald….and a Canadian flag or two….God knows why?

        • arkie 26.1.1.1
          6 February 2022 at 8:06 pm

          This local protest was organised in 'solidarity' with the #FluTruxClan in Canada.

          • pat 26.1.1.1.1
            6 February 2022 at 8:12 pm

            Im guessing it was organised by groundswell….there were a lot who appeared willing to spend their day on the side of the road holding placards..and Id estimate hundreds if not over a thousand vehicles heading north….it was a constant stream from Rolleston to Ashburton.

  27. Blade 27
    6 February 2022 at 8:18 pm

    Righties on the move. And I would suggest, more than a few pissed off Lefties.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/127698879/convoy-of-cars-and-trucks-leave-bluff-destined-for-parliament

    • Robert Guyton 27.1
      6 February 2022 at 8:25 pm

      Feeble effort, imo.

      How many trucks?

      Truck-all, it seems.

      • pat 27.1.1
        6 February 2022 at 8:34 pm

        Quite a few trucks, a lot of campers and caravans (accomodation?) and various other vehicles.

        • Robert Guyton 27.1.1.1
          6 February 2022 at 8:42 pm

          "Quite a few"?

          That's a number?

          With tag-alongs?

          Doesn't really sound like a Mighty Convoy, to me.

          • pat 27.1.1.1.1
            6 February 2022 at 8:45 pm

            I didnt count them…i dont have enough digits, and i was driving at the time.

            • Robert Guyton 27.1.1.1.1.1
              6 February 2022 at 8:46 pm

              So, more than 10?

              Mighty!

              • pat …
                6 February 2022 at 8:53 pm

                No Robert…more than 20…i have toes as well.

                • Robert Guyton …
                  6 February 2022 at 9:04 pm

                  "more than 20"

                  Yikes!

                  Super-mighty convoy!

                  Sounds like a watered-down Groundswell effort.

                  Bolstered by camper vans.

                  And campers.

                  • pat …
                    6 February 2022 at 9:15 pm

                    Oh dear Robert…so you are determined to diminish, go for it, its your privilege… however as noted in a region that is 98% double vaxed it was indeed surprising to see large groups gathered in EVERY township between south of Ashburton and Christchuruch….groups that remained from at least mid morning until early evening, in addition to in excess of a thousand vehicles (i think a safe estimate) in an elongated convoy.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      6 February 2022 at 9:21 pm

                      Pat – I am down-playing the event, for fun, just as the supporters are over-egging the convoy pudding – I notice, and have linked to photographic evidence, that there were just 3 trucks; that's right, 3, at the Bluff end of the Mighty Convoy.

                      That's a little "slim" in my estimation, but you might be right, it could be snowballing and the ferries will be imperilled by the load, when finally they come to cross the strait.

                      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/127698879/convoy-of-cars-and-trucks-leave-bluff-destined-for-parliament

                      3 is less that 4 but more than 2, so I guess it's a matter of interpretation.

                    • pat …
                      6 February 2022 at 9:26 pm

                      Enjoy your fun…from small acorns mighty oaks grow…your 3 in Bluff were at least 40 or 50 by the time i passed them…and Im guessing i didnt pass the entire convoy (though i passed nothing south of Ashburton)

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      6 February 2022 at 9:34 pm

                      Kids love those trucking displays-of-might – the airhorns, the big-rigs – the camper-vans must be a bit of a let-down though, beep-beep – where's the next dump-stain, and all that.

                      I think the convoy message is just as ill-disciplined as the Groundswell ones – no one really knows what they're on about – just truckies grumbling about truckie stuff.

                      Ho hum.

                    • mauī …
                      6 February 2022 at 9:51 pm

                      "however as noted in a region that is 98% double vaxed it was indeed surprising to see large groups gathered in EVERY township between south of Ashburton and Christchuruch"

                      Goodness who knew there were so many anti-vaxers lol.

                    • pat …
                      6 February 2022 at 9:54 pm

                      And vaccinated 'anti vaxers' at that.

                    • Poission …
                      6 February 2022 at 10:12 pm

                      Maybe they Roberts neighbors,as riverton has one of the lowest vaccination rates in the south island 85 first dose,80 second dose,

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      6 February 2022 at 10:21 pm

                      It's true, Poission! My fellow villagers have dragged the chain something dreadful!

                      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/127651045/southland-seaside-business-shuts-temporarily-after-antivaxx-abuse

                    • Poission …
                      6 February 2022 at 10:29 pm

                      That is so wrong bullying shop owners for a statutory requirement.

                    • pat …
                      6 February 2022 at 10:58 pm

                      Not sure that Roberts neighbours would drive all the way from Riverton to stand on the side of the road in Dunsandal, Rakaia et al all day….i've done that trip a few times and im bloody sure I wouldnt.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      7 February 2022 at 7:29 am

                      Poission – yes, the bullying of shop owners, keepers, staff and volunteers is disgraceful, especially where it's pre-meditated and contrived, "Let's go down and harass the staff at the local green grocer!! Yeah!! That'll learn 'em to tell US what we can wear on our faces!! Freedumb!!

                      The food cooperative at which I volunteer has been subject to some of these. Sadly, or fortuitously, I wasn't volunteering on the days. I'd fight back with pithy statements and confusing quips, until they retreated, head's sore 🙂

                  • Peter …
                    6 February 2022 at 10:56 pm

                    Some of the groundswell people are involved.

              • McFlock …
                6 February 2022 at 8:57 pm

                well, more than 6 if machinery or explosives were involved in a previous career, or more than 20 if Pat was wearing sandals 🙂

            • Blade 27.1.1.1.1.2
              6 February 2022 at 8:49 pm

              There's another convoy coming down from Cape Reinga.

      • Chris T 27.1.2
        6 February 2022 at 10:26 pm

        There is an interesting news item on it.

    • Robert Guyton 27.2
      7 February 2022 at 7:34 pm

      Tell me, is it true, that the Freedumb Truckers have faltered at the final hurdle, devastated by the news that a vaccine passport is required in order to board the inter-island ferry?
      Catch you on the flip-flop, big buddy!