Open mike 06/07/2023

72 comments on “Open mike 06/07/2023 ”

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1. Dennis Frank 1

   6 July 2023 at 6:24 am

   Funny, that:

   some ministers sound increasingly estranged from their departments when discussing operational failures, as if they are talking about something they’ve seen on the news.

   So he's noticed it too!

   a broad diagnosis of the problem is that ministers can’t tell the public service what they need, and are then upset when they don’t get it.

   Well it is the Labour Party, after all. What we've come to expect.

   One of the key criticisms of the public spending watchdog was that the fund had a “complex” framework for assessing potential investments, with three tiers, eight objectives and five principles, which it said were “broad” and “difficult to apply”.

   I suppose they could organise group chants: simplify, pacify, stultify, kinda thing. What bureaucracy normally does, in other words.

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/300921772/what-might-lie-beneath-kiri-allans-problem-with-the-bureaucrats
   • Descendant Of Smith 1.1

     6 July 2023 at 9:40 am

     I suspect it is more that the National sycophants that got planted into senior positions when National was in place and who were heard to say things in Wellington like "we'll only have to wait three years til things get back to normal" when Labour first got in – are hanging out for their friends to get back in power.

     Resisting Labour, who while neo-liberal, aren't neo-liberal enough for them, is coming to a point where their resistance is becoming obvious/futile. Labour is pretty slack at replacing these vermin living in the public service who don't believe in the public service. Always have been.

     They'll be even more distraught if Labour get back in.
     • Shanreagh 1.1.1

       6 July 2023 at 10:45 am

       Good grief have you ever been in the PS in Wellington?

       Just for info it was a Labour Govt that started the neo-lib madness.

       Most PS know which functions are better delivered by the State from tradition but again PS departments work to ensure that the policies and procedures of the Govt of the day are put in place. Officials have traditionally wanted the free and frank procedures to work where PS are able to put up possible pitfalls, possible improvements etc. That is their job but if people/politicians think that by doing this they are being biased it does make doing their job more difficult.

       From my experience it has been the understanding of the rule of law, as opposed to policy where some intial misunderstandings may arise. By this I mean a govt comes in with ideas to change this or that, forgetting or not knowing in the first place, that this is controlled by legislation.

       It just is not possible to change legislation without going through Cabinet, getting a priority on legislative schedules. I have seen PS try to explain this.

       So people get to Parliament and then into Govt without knowing how govts work, how rules are made etc. If a Govt got inot power and purported by policy to chnage legislation then the Courts will strike down this. The instance I remember, told as a cautionary tale, is that of Muldoon and Superannuation. Not only was it illegal but Sam Stubbs from Simplicity has argued it was the worst decsion on policy grounds.

       https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitzgerald_v_Muldoon

       https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/300327451/the-worst-decision-by-a-new-zealand-politician-ever

       I made the suggestion after the Parliamnetary protest that perhaps what we lack here in NZ are lessons in Civics or demorcracy or how laws are made, how policies are made. .

       Some Ministers make jobs easier or more difficult and this applies to all parties.
       • Jilly Bee 1.1.1.1

         6 July 2023 at 1:47 pm

         'I made the suggestion after the Parliamnetary protest that perhaps what we lack here in NZ are lessons in Civics or demorcracy or how laws are made, how policies are made. .'

         I well recall back in Rob Muldoon's time as PM it was mooted that civics be taught at secondary school level. He refused point blank to let it happen – he said it was akin to a form of communism. I can't recall his actual words, but the idea was stomped on and never took off.
     • Shanreagh 1.1.2

       6 July 2023 at 11:31 am

       Labour is pretty slack at replacing these vermin living in the public service who don't believe in the public service. Always have been

       And we think that politicians decribing others as bottom feeders is terrible but it is quite Ok to call other people 'vermin'.

       The so-called 'Bottom feeders' and 'vermin' are people doing the best for themselves and their children, who go home from work and ask what their kids did at school……who do their best at their jobs.

       Please Mods can we pull up on this childish name calling so we can have a clear and civilised run to the election where we discuss issues and do not engage in 'othering'/name calling.

       .
       • Incognito 1.1.2.1

         6 July 2023 at 11:58 am

         Please Mods can we pull up on this childish name calling so we can have a clear and civilised run to the election where we discuss issues and do not engage in ‘othering’/name calling.

         Please tell us that you are not serious.
         • Shanreagh 1.1.2.1.1

           6 July 2023 at 8:41 pm

           Ok free rein it is then……is that what you mean. I thought Weka was valiantly trying to lift the standard of debate here. Cracking down on name calling seems a fairly simple and innocuous first step or at least be consistent.

           I find people being described as vermin or rats is little different from calling someone a bottom feeder. If you do the substitution you will see they are equally dopey and hurtful things to say.

           Both are similar in term of powerlessness to respond as well. NB DoS that the annonymous PS giving forth about being shouted at was the exception rather than the rule. Many of those described by Luxon also lack the means/ability/power/sleep to mount a protest at being name-called.
       • Descendant Of Smith 1.1.2.2

         6 July 2023 at 12:21 pm

         Do you not believe that there are people within the public service who do not believe in the public service and wish to dismantle it? Do you not think National put them in place.

         Do you really think that free and frank advice remains. People way more learned than me think it is diminished significantly.

         "There has been an absence of free and frank advice offered to ministers in recent years.

         "If ministers do not receive free and frank advice there is a real risk that this will promote a tendency to politicise the public service and endanger its independence, thereby adversely affecting the quality of advice given and decisions taken."

         https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/95499693/chris-eichbaum–free-and-frank-advice-fast-disappearing

         I would love to see any advice given by the public sector that for instance that suggests nationalising power companies and the benefits of this despite lots of external evidence and research that shows privatisation did not work or deliver the savings in any area other than rubbish disposal.

         Where was the public sector advice to say that buying Pike River mine would not be a prudent use of taxpayer money?

         Or more recently.

         https://businessdesk.co.nz/article/public-sector-project/free-frank-and-political-advice-the-state-of-the-public-service

         Privatisation is the god that failed. As an object of worship, it has proven expensive for the public and a bonanza for comparatively few investors, often overseas. And in key areas such as council housing, it has proven a singular disaster. Yet, remarkably, it is still the preferred solution of any Conservative government for everything from Royal Mail to housing association homes.

         https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jun/22/the-guardian-view-on-privatisation-the-god-that-failed

         Just for info it was a Labour Govt that started the neo-lib madness.

         Pretty sure I covered that off.

         Resisting Labour, who while neo-liberal,

         Not sure why you take offence to vermin – if I'd said rats would you have objected? Does vermin carry some stronger context for you?
         • Shanreagh 1.1.2.2.1

           6 July 2023 at 8:26 pm

           Not sure why you take offence to vermin – if I'd said rats would you have objected? Does vermin carry some stronger context for you?

           So by the same token there was actually nothing wrong with Luxon and his comment about bottom feeders or is ok for lefties to call others names but not Ok for righties?

           Both framing by Luxon and your diatribe about the PS rely on calling others names. I see no difference.
         • Shanreagh 1.1.2.2.2

           6 July 2023 at 8:57 pm

           I would love to see any advice given by the public sector that for instance that suggests nationalising power companies and the benefits of this despite lots of external evidence and research that shows privatisation did not work or deliver the savings in any area other than rubbish disposal.

           Where was the public sector advice to say that buying Pike River mine would not be a prudent use of taxpayer money?

           PS work to support the agenda of the Govt and a rule of thimb is that when giving advice to a Minister that all options are covered.

           I am not aware of there being any current proposal by this Govt to do anything at all to revist the privatisation of the energy industry. If there had been Govt Depts would be providing advice on the pros & cons, options and time scale.

           Doing something about energy has been one of my biggest beefs about the squandering of the last election's results ie moving towards bringing them back into the Govt's fold. I think all the horses being frightened by the relentless campaign against 3/5 Waters including disgusting race based arguments and Hipkins focus on getting back in has put scary prospects like energy on the back burner.

           If doing something about it becomes a programme of a succesful party then the relevant Govt Depts, when asked, would provide info about doing this.

           Govt Depts don't just wake up one morning and decide to provide advice that is not on the programmes of Govt of the day. Of course some ministers and their officials 'chew the fat' and get different perspectives on things but this is not formal advice. Might happen in a landrover going to a location or over meal.
   • Anne 1.2

     6 July 2023 at 10:20 am

     Oh yes, Ben Thomas. National Party lackey from way back. A subtle stab in the back from a Nat posing as a non partisan political commentator.

     How come you never point out these little anomalies Dennis Frank?

     And how about you dial back on your contributions. Let other people have a go.
     • Dennis Frank 1.2.1

       6 July 2023 at 10:35 am

       I'm not stopping them, Anne. Biodiversity rules. Trying to stop group learning is unwise – it's how folks survive. I'm surprised anyone still believes cancel culture is a good thing!
     • Shanreagh 1.2.2

       6 July 2023 at 10:52 am

       And how about you dial back on your contributions. Let other people have a go.

       Why?

       If you want to contribute it is as easy as hitting the reply button or making your own post on an issue of the day that you believe needs raising.

       I think it is vital for people like Denis Frank and TSmithfield to keep commenting here as without different views we risk becoming an echo chamber and that is not desirable at any time and especially with an election coming up. I value those with an idependent streak, thoughtful views who can see the wood and that the Emperor has no clothes'. Plus it keeps our brains working!

       I also think in a small way that if the supporters of a party/wing make comments that may be critical it is better that they are expressed here than stumping a left wing politician who is out on the hustings in 'deepest, darkest Eketahuna', say.
     • Jilly Bee 1.2.3

       6 July 2023 at 11:01 am

       Ditto Anne, I'm beginning to find TS a tad tiresome to wade through these days since Dennis Frank has come back to haunt us. I do enjoy TSmithfield’s considered opinions though I think there is a very concerted and determined effort by the MSM and other commenters to convince voters not to vote Labour/Greens in October. Goodness only know what the Government has had to deal with over the past 6 years, they've every right to feel a bit jaded – the Christchurch massacre, Whakaari/White Island, the Covid 'invasion', the weather bombs which beset parts of the country a few months ago, as well as the effects of global inflation, which despite what Chris Luxon, Nicola Willis et al would have us believe that it's purely a N Z problem. I believe there are some good MPs in the 2020 intake who are biding their time and could well shine if they have the good fortune to be re-elected. It's a bit fraught at times, but I'm keeping the faith.
       • Phillip ure 1.2.3.1

         6 July 2023 at 11:17 am

         Jilly bee…meet space-bar ..!

         Please..!
         • Jilly Bee 1.2.3.1.1

           6 July 2023 at 11:44 am

           Wow Philip… is this better… I was probably typing away in a legal office on an Imperial 66 or similar long before you were a wee glint in your father's eye…
           • Patricia Bremner 1.2.3.1.1.1

             6 July 2023 at 4:00 pm

             Lol Jilly Bee, you keep typing my friend. A rational caring voice is an utter relief.

             I would ad that Kat got a flyer from Christopher Luxon, promising a rise every year for pensioners. My antenna went up!! Why??? Was that on his list???

             I wondered if they were considering changing it to match the CPI, as for the old GSF. ???

             I have both Super and the Government Super Fund I saved into as a Teacher.

             The GSF is on the CPI increase and has gone up 40%+ since 2001.

             The Super is @ 65% of the average wage and has more than doubled in the same time.

             Anything that man mentions is a way? he is going to collect money to do his tax refunds for top earners, and remove tax off Landlords. imo

             I like different points of view, but anyone who thinks Whale oil has anything to offer is out on a limb in my book.

             Anyone who bags Labour or the Greens casually with "Labour always…' or "That would be the Greens" sweeping generalisations and pokes.

             Real pertinent comments are fine, nastiness is not.imo
           • Phillip ure 1.2.3.1.1.2

             6 July 2023 at 4:05 pm

             @ jb..

             Did the imperial 66 not have a space bar…?

             How on earth did you paragraph…back in those byegone days…?
             • Jilly Bee …

               6 July 2023 at 4:33 pm

               p u……….I was always under the impression that a new paragraph was required when the subject matter changed……I though my previous post was pretty much dealing with the same subject……
               • Phillip ure …

                 6 July 2023 at 6:17 pm

                 No no j.b….

                 That all stems from when paper was very expensive…so cramming as much in as possible made economic sense…

                 What the internet has wrought for us is unlimited free paper…so words/sentences can now breathe..

                 I don't think/use paragraph as such..

                 I think each new sentence deserves the respect of a new line..all of its own..

                 And when I can I scorn the false honorific of the capital letter…

                 I mean..why..?.. exactly..?

                 And going on your reckons on my age…..you must be about 115…(!)

                 Well done you..!

                 You are holding up well…
             • Molly …

               6 July 2023 at 5:04 pm

               With a double carriage return, Phillip ure..

               The "space bar" was – and still is – used to insert a space.
               • Jilly Bee …

                 6 July 2023 at 5:34 pm

                 
               • Phillip ure …

                 6 July 2023 at 6:19 pm

                 The modern space-bar gives you a new/fresh line…
       • Anne 1.2.3.2

         6 July 2023 at 12:00 pm

         "Ditto Anne, I'm beginning to find TS a tad tiresome to wade through these days…"

         Indeed it is sometimes Jilly Bee.

         I love the way the young uns automatically assume that because we are old we don't know what we're talking about. We've been around the political traps years longer than they have – we've seen it all before – but nah… we know nuffink. 🙂

         I've noted a number of valuable commenters don't visit TS much anymore.
     • Phillip ure 1.2.4

       6 July 2023 at 11:08 am

       @ anne…

       Did you read the piece from thomas before your dennunciation..?

       If you did… could you please point out just what you found wrong with it..?

       As I read it as detailing the failings of the beaurocrats..in a govt agency..

       And if anything a defence of allen…on the grounds of extreme provocation..
       • Descendant Of Smith 1.2.4.1

         6 July 2023 at 7:10 pm

         I just disagree with his reckons as to why eg a government which abandoned concrete targets for public service performance….

         Education targets resulted in the kids they were inflicted on now struggling to achieve in the education system

         It found only 16 per cent of teachers believed National Standards had a positive impact, while two thirds were concerned about the anxiety students felt about their performance and the negative effect this had on their learning.

         One principal described it as "soul destroying" for students who make individual progress but remain "below" the standard.

         Another said the system had "led to a deterioration in the educational deal our children are receiving".

         The report highlighted a number of recurrent concerns, including a belief the system narrows the curriculum as teachers are forced to teach to the standards and they don't accurately reflect student's ability.

         https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/national-standards-no-positive-impact-on-achievement-say-teachers/PJVHTVPTCYRHOKSHL7JRBC7PDY/

         Waitlist targets for health resulted in people being kicked off waiting lists and representing years later in a worse state

         There has been an ongoing political debate in New Zealand about whether funding injections result in increased and improved service access. Between 2000 and 2006, there was a slight reduction in the total number of people receiving elective treatments (Ministry of Health, 2008). However, the Health Minister suggested that the reduction was a result of more treatments in outpatient settings that were not captured in standard hospital datasets. A clear theme throughout the 7 years of analysis was the constant stories of DHBs having difficulty providing adequate service levels and of patients being removed from waiting lists despite the fact that they had a professionally determined need, as judged by their clinical priority scores, for treatment.

         Another theme was the increasing threshold, or required score, for access to elective treatments. Many DHBs, under pressure to provide a response to growing numbers of referred patients, simply raised the number of points required to be eligible for treatment.

         ‘The figures show the mean score for adults having cardiothoracic surgery has risen from 33.5 in 2001 to 46.4 in 2005. Mean adult general surgery scores have risen from 77.5 to 87.9 and orthopaedic scores from 75.4 to 81.2 over the same period. There has also been a big jump in ophthalmology scores’

         Waitlist targets for housing resulted in people being kicked off the waiting list and hiding the size of the problem

         When this is placed alongside the wiping of thousands of people off the bottom of Housing New Zealand's waiting lists, the wonder is that National has got this far with little opposition.

         One reason is that instead of rushing change, the housing reforms have followed a now familiar process which might be termed the "Bill English Handbook on Managing More Market Reform".

         https://www.cpag.org.nz/media-releases/why-are-we-only-seeing-band-aid-responses

         Targets to reduce benefit numbers resulted in people being denied benefits and a toxic environment

         The Government has set itself ambitious new targets including 75,000 fewer New Zealanders being on benefits by June 2018 as part of its Better Public Services drive, Finance Minister Bill English and State Services Minister Paula Bennett say.

         “AAAP see this treatment of beneficiaries by fraud investigators who are encouraged by MSD to punish beneficiaries as emblematic of the toxic culture of MSD which has turned lethal,” says Vanessa Cole spokesperson for AAAP.

         “The former MSD investigator in the case of Wendy Shoebridge revealed that MSD had forced investigation staff to get at least one prosecution, and recover $30,000 in debt per month.

         https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1612/S00117/investigation-is-proof-winz-s-toxic-culture-is-lethal.htm
2. Dennis Frank 2

   6 July 2023 at 6:41 am

   Dumpty goes west: https://www.newsroom.co.nz/luxon-goes-west

   One man with a British accent said he had been in New Zealand for 50 years, but was worried about the growing level of ‘wokeness’, citing grievances such as the growing acceptance of Te Reo Māori usage and gender pronouns.

   His answer was peppered with phrases such as “we want to be focused on how we unite the country” and “we should respect each other’s identities”.

   Luxon’s take on this hot button issue is endlessly diplomatic. He said he didn’t want to see the divided camps seen in the culture wars overseas, and his answer tiptoed the careful line between either side. But in doing so, he’ll likely please neither camp.

   Neither woke nor asleep, somewhere in between. Careful focus on the middle. Well-trained.

   But though the Luxon show has become a well-oiled machine in the months on the road, it's still one that’s relatively one-size-fits-all.

   “we’ve all been immigrants in some form or another”, he said somewhat curiously.

   Ah, the boat people thesis. The notion that although it was your ancestors that did it, you can pretend it was actually you. Somehow I can't see this catching on. I agree most people are delusional, and get why he's playing that card, but they're addicted already to quite different delusions. Still, he didn't use the extraterrestrial genetic alteration theory – which has been around so long it has become conservative. Maybe he's weighing that option…
3. Dennis Frank 3

   6 July 2023 at 6:56 am

   From biodiversity as a vista, into microcosm of that:

   We meet in a central London cafe where, for nearly three hours, she guides me through a life story that takes in the aftermath of the Holocaust, life in communist eastern Europe, her family’s migration to Australia, and a life that has mixed academia and activism with plenty of struggle and hardship. But what we talk about the most is neurodiversity, the concept she quietly introduced to the world in 1997.

   To quote from the definitive autism history Neurotribes, by the American writer Steve Silberman, “it was in these talks with Blume that she came up with the term neurodiversity”. In the meantime, Singer had decided to write a thesis focused on the online communities she was now part of, and her sense that they were cohering into a new social movement, comparable to those focused on feminism and gay rights.

   https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jul/05/the-mother-of-neurodiversity-how-judy-singer-changed-the-world

   She's a paradigm-shifter:

   autistics have begun to elaborate a new kind of identity. They counterpose themselves against those they have dubbed ‘neurotypical’ or NT, a term they have coined to sideline the word ‘normal’ with all its prescriptive connotations. Autistics are beginning to see themselves as a kind of neurological ‘other’ who have existed amongst and been oppressed by the dominant neurological type, the NT, whose hegemony has until now neither been noticed nor challenged.”
   • tWiggle 3.1

     6 July 2023 at 5:07 pm

     Singer has recently lost respect with many in the autistic community because of her support for a gender-critical position. Mica at ponderful discusses where GC and trans autistic people disagree.
     • Dennis Frank 3.1.1

       6 July 2023 at 5:46 pm

       Messy. Folks have an inherent right to define their own identity but categories are social entities and language is a commons. When they battle over word-meanings it seems to be due to collective inability to reach consensus on the various categories involved. I suppose it will settle down eventually and a common view of how to handle such biodiversity will gel.

       All these different groupings are user-driven, eh? So each group forms a social ecosystem in which users take refuge and then bond in solidarity. I still feel however, that pretending to be a woman when you aren't biologically is delusional. When such people misrepresent themselves to the detriment of women, seems logical they ought to be prosecuted for fraud. I wonder why I haven't heard of any such prosecution.
       • tWiggle 3.1.1.1

         6 July 2023 at 5:57 pm

         Can't imagine you had time to watch mica's vessay, which examines the ableist attitude that autistic people cannot decide for themselves they are trans. There is already an ableist attack on autistic persons accessing transition care in some US states.
4. Dennis Frank 4

   6 July 2023 at 7:11 am

   Gun nuts here will be contemplating their admirable restraint:

   The shooting in Shreveport is the 17th mass shooting to be reported across the country since the holiday weekend began on Friday evening, according to the Gun Violence Archive. The total death toll from these shootings stands at 19, and more than 100 others were injured.

   https://www.forbes.com/sites/siladityaray/2023/07/05/4-killed-in-louisiana-in-17th-mass-shooting-over-july-4-weekend/?sh=406205227a13

   The overall effect seems rather scattershot. I guess it's hard, when you're enraged, to shoot accurately. Still, celebrating Independence Day is tedious if you don't take out a few irritants here & there…
5. Sanctuary 5

   6 July 2023 at 7:42 am

   You know, the car and contents are insured. But I doubt the wounds of being outted in the Herald as living in a Glen Eden postcode when you've told all your friends you live in Oratia will ever quite heal.

   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/grant-theft-auto-new-850k-rolls-royce-ghost-stolen-from-glen-eden-womans-home/E73RDLY3YZB27PNKICDNG3IE5E/
   • Peter 5.1

     6 July 2023 at 9:17 am

     A number of fascinating aspects to this story. Many people have a ‘company car.’
     Not many have half million plus models. Not many have half million plus models with close at hand thieves ready to move in if they whip up the road.
6. Sanctuary 6

   6 July 2023 at 8:00 am

   The mayor of Wellington having a bit of a bender, getting a bit slurry and generally doing what a lot of people do and then being shat on by the business that was happy to take her money but didn't believe it owes any discretion to it's customers is apparently a scandal of the first order and worthy of days of pearl clutching headlines.

   Meanwhile, a bunch of nasty old white boomer uncles getting together to tell jokes in public that have gone down like a cup of cold sick at the family Christmas for the last decade is just boys being boys.

   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/wayne-brown-leo-molloy-sir-graham-henry-guy-williams-judith-collins-front-foul-mouthed-charity-debate/UK3KQPBGL5FJJLVH37KU7V6R4A/

   Don't talk to me about there being no structural racism and sexism in this country.

   And what is it with old men and their inability to grasp that they've had their day and culture, manners and society moves on? No wonder rugby stadiums are full of appalling retro pop played far too loud – These old pricks run the place and think it still represents the pinnacle of popular culture and they can't hear it at normal volumes without turning up their hearing aids to max, which would never do since it might put them out a bit.
   • KJT 6.1

     6 July 2023 at 8:14 am

     Whatever did your Grandparents do to you?
     • Sanctuary 6.1.1

       6 July 2023 at 8:37 am

       I must admit I find these old bastards odious and interesting in equal measure.

       This sort of public posturing works as a rallying cry insofar as it is a structure-of-feeling that is pervasive on the culture war Right in NZ and across the wider Anglosphere: that they have been excluded and marginalised from legitimate power by an illegitimate, parasitic elite. These old buggers are neither cynical nor sincere; they are both. Malloy and Henry and Plunkett and Brown act as a relay, through which the passions of the reactionary crowd they pander to pass and are returned in a louder and more garish form. They say what the crowd thinks.

       That is where their power lies, beause the axiomatic received wisdom of an establishment MSM deeply wedded to the institutions that prop up these guys aligns with their world view.

       The reason they hate the new elites lies precisely in the fact that they have new power structures and ways of doing things.
       • AB 6.1.1.1

         6 July 2023 at 9:08 am

         Agree – it is a "structure of feeling",and rather than being an emergent form as in the dictionary definition, it is a submergent form that fears it is on the way out. Rather than trying to become the new orthodoxy, it is the old orthodoxy fighting for its life.
         • tWiggle 6.1.1.1.1

           6 July 2023 at 6:00 pm

           An elite fighting for life, and making sure it takes down others with it.
       • KJT 6.1.1.2

         6 July 2023 at 10:28 am

         As the attitudes and ideological stances you, mostly rightly, oppose, are just as much apparent in many young buggers, David Seymour being an indicative example, characterising them as unique to "boomers" and " old buggers" is not only inaccurate but alienates many who would otherwise agree with you.

         Playing into the hands of those who want to take attention away from the fact that it is class, and those who want to steal from society, rather than contribute to it, of all ages.

         Making it about "boomers" conveniently takes the focus on the whole new generations of entitled"little Lord Fantleroys"who are intent destroying my grandkids future for the gains of a few..
         • Phillip ure 6.1.1.2.1

           6 July 2023 at 10:46 am

           @kjt..

           I agree with your observation that it is about class…and not about age…

           And that making it about age..is just a self-serving distraction from the real problems…

           Tho' those in that story re mayor and others…really are from the obnoxious end of the boomer spectrum…

           And I guess the most charitable description of their attempts at humour…

           ..is gauche…
           • KJT 6.1.1.2.1.1

             6 July 2023 at 11:07 am

             Tho' those in that story re mayor and others…really are from the obnoxious end of the boomer spectrum…

             Totally agree.
         • Visubversa 6.1.1.2.2

           6 July 2023 at 1:02 pm

           Agree entirely kjt. A whole bunch of us "boomers" were protesting the American war in Vietnam, and the South African apartheid regime, before we even left High School.

           We moved on to the Women's Movement and Gay Liberation in our 20's and then to the Union Movement in our 30's.

           We raised the $$$$ for the Rape Crisis Centres and the Women's Refuges, we were marshals and organisers for the 1981 Anti Tour actions.

           We are still working for progressive causes in our retirement.

           We have never voted for any variety of Tory in our lives.
           • Shanreagh 6.1.1.2.2.1

             6 July 2023 at 8:31 pm

             Sounds like my life.

             Though I have to throw in some Maori causes as well…..
       • Patricia Bremner 6.1.1.3

         6 July 2023 at 4:09 pm

         true. I thought" three old tur.s." lol Brown Malloy and Plunket!!
         "Now now Trish they can't help it!!" muck in=muckout.
   • Charlotte Rust 6.2

     6 July 2023 at 8:42 am

     Like button! Agree wholeheartedly with this, ka pai
   • Peter Kelly 6.3

     6 July 2023 at 8:54 am

     I totally agree Sanctuary.

     "Profanity is the sign of a lazy mind." The amount of profanity used by the 'boomer uncles' puts on display some very lazy minds, who sadly think they were being clever.
     • Shanreagh 6.3.1

       6 July 2023 at 11:45 am

       I agree with this but I also think the issue with profanity is wider than 'boomer' uncles, unless some 'boomer uncles' have slipped in here……..

       Name calling and profanity at a person are sides of the same disrepect of the views of others…she said prudishly.

       Are people so angry when they write here or enage in debate that they have to use profanity? Worrying if so.
       • Phillip ure 6.3.1.1

         6 July 2023 at 6:32 pm

         One person's profanity…is another's salty seasoning..

         An underlining..

         Tho' brown..when given a small road cone said he would insert in in someone's rear end..( his actual words are a more salty version of mine..)

         And having pictures of media people pasted into urinals..so people can piss on them…

         Have these old right-wing idjits reverted to early adolescence..?

         Why is the media not all over this..?

         And just focusing on the wellington mayor non-story..?
     • alwyn 6.3.2

       6 July 2023 at 2:13 pm

       It would appear that a lot of the profanity was coming from the Mayor and her friend, at least as recounted by one person who was there.

       "One man, who asked not to be identified, said he and his 13 and 15-year-old teenagers were sitting near Whanau and her friend and heard a lot of loud swearing: “Lots of words beginning with F.”"

       https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/wellington/132466793/tory-whanau-saga-we-shouldnt-expect-anyone–to-be-a-complete-saint
       • Phillip ure 6.3.2.1

         6 July 2023 at 6:35 pm

         Alwyn must be a hot favourite for today's pearl-clutching award…surely..?
   • weka 6.4

     6 July 2023 at 9:28 am

     The mayor of Wellington having a bit of a bender, getting a bit slurry and generally doing what a lot of people do and then being shat on by the business that was happy to take her money but didn't believe it owes any discretion to it's customers is apparently a scandal of the first order and worthy of days of pearl clutching headlines.

     I'm not sure that's what happened. Afaik the manager responded to media enquiries, they didn't go to the media. Whether the story originally came from staff or patrons, I don't think the business itself can be held responsible for that.
     • Sanctuary 6.4.1

       6 July 2023 at 9:34 am

       The story directly quoted a staff member. When I was the bar manager of a similar establishment that would have got you fired.
       • pat 6.4.1.1

         6 July 2023 at 9:36 am

         We of course would never support firing someone for answering a journalists questions however.
       • weka 6.4.1.2

         6 July 2023 at 9:50 am

         it's always so interesting seeing lefties advocating firing people. Especially when commenting on a labour movement aligned blog.

         Do we know how the manager has dealt with the issue internally? Can they even get more staff at the moment?
         • Sanctuary 6.4.1.2.1

           6 July 2023 at 10:13 am

           I am just telling you stright how I would have dealt with a staff member if they'd made an unauthorised statement to the media – assuming you run an establishment which offers protection to it's patrons. It potentially can seriously affect business reputation.

           Personally, I suspect the staff memeber was probably the stalking horse for a management to gutless to front the media themselves but not happy with recent changes around poedestrianisation in Wellington.
           • weka 6.4.1.2.1.1

             6 July 2023 at 1:23 pm

             oh I completely agree with you that the business should be protecting customers as well as their own reputation, and that staff shouldn't be speaking to the media.

             I'm not sure if it's legal to fire someone like that for sometimes like this. Gross misconduct? Depends on what happened (and I'm not a union or employment law bod). I suspect there are other ways of dealing with it, although again, it depends on what happened, and as per usual with MSM bollocks we don't really know.

             I was wondering if the business is run by people with little media experience, and possibly English as a second language. I haven't seen anything to suggest that they were gunning for the mayor politically, but who knows. Would the business be affected by changes to urban planning?
             • weka …

               6 July 2023 at 1:24 pm

               otoh, I did see Slater's name crop up yesterday. Didn't read the piece, but it's possible it's just a straight out Dirty Politics job.
   • bwaghorn 6.5

     6 July 2023 at 1:59 pm

     Not so long ago a nat mp got sacked for being drunk in charge of an ego!!
     • pat 6.5.1

       6 July 2023 at 5:47 pm

       LMAO
7. Reality 7

   6 July 2023 at 10:35 am

   The bunch of mostly old blokes in Auckland seemingly got away with their schoolboy behaviour while the Wellington mayor, being female, youngish and Māori, gets no such tolerance. And no male politician was ever put through the disgraceful online bile that Jacinda Ardern was subjected to.
   • Jilly Bee 7.1

     6 July 2023 at 11:15 am

     
8. Ad 8

   6 July 2023 at 10:58 am

   US Supreme Court Justice Brown has done a pretty cool dissenting opinion which, if you read it, has a whole lot of parallels to our own debates about whether Maori get favoured treatment in many areas of society.

   https://www.thenation.com/article/society/kbj-dissent-affirmative-action/

   You can't quite 'search and replace' the term black for Maori, but you do get the idea.

   We have to go a way back to Lord Cooke of Thorndon to get a senior judge going straight into this territory here.

   For the longer version pertinent to NZ, refer to Professor Walker's Struggle Without End.
9. Dennis Frank 9

   6 July 2023 at 12:08 pm

   So Laura Norder is being called for at the top level:

   scientists and experts have called on the world to act, declaring AI an existential threat to humanity on a par with the risk of nuclear war,” the UN chief said.

   https://www.1news.co.nz/2023/07/04/un-to-hold-meeting-on-potential-threats-of-ai-to-global-peace/

   It's a British tory initiative:

   UK Ambassador Barbara Woodward on Monday (local time) announced the July 18 meeting as the centrepiece of its presidency of the council this month. It will include briefings by international AI experts and Secretary-General Antonio Guterres, who last month called the alarm bells over the most advanced form of AI “deafening,” and loudest from its developers.

   The establishment need their control system to get a grip on upstart rebel developers…
10. Sanctuary 10

    6 July 2023 at 12:48 pm

    Just as an aside – I am of the view that nuclear power is clearly the best solution we have right now using exisiting technology to reduce carbon emissions, and NZ need to think about SMR (Small Modular Reactor) technologies to help provide baseload.

    However, this study tells us that of180 nuclear power construction projects, 195 were late by an average of 64% longer that planned to build and over budget to an average of 117%

    https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?arnumber=9374057

    In the meantime, renewables continue to fall in cost. IMHO, the future lies in base hydro and nuclear with reenewables being used as much as possible.
    • Dennis Frank 10.1

      6 July 2023 at 1:20 pm

      Unfortunately RL got banned for a while & he's been urging us toward this. Around 7 years ago here I cited Stewart Brand's book Whole Earth Discipline where he has a chapter on the same theme.

      My take from sporadic reading around the industry situation is that inertia prevails but some tech progress does happen – slowly. Still, climate change pressures everyone towards a collective solution and the logic of safe reactors will become inexorable eventually. Those that consume waste nuclear products are Greenest!
    • alwyn 10.2

      6 July 2023 at 2:25 pm

      "over budget to an average of 117%".

      That sounds pretty good to me. That certainly looks better than the road in Tauranga.

      "The new forecast of $292m is up from $262m a year ago, almost three times the original 2015 estimate"

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/493202/tauranga-s-1-point-7km-highway-link-cost-blows-out-to-300m

      Or consider the proposed cycleway from Wellington to Petone. It was originally estimated at $94 million and is now up to $312 million

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/wellington/129345651/cost-blowout-for-harbour-pathway-between-wellington-and-hutt-valley

      A mere 117% sounds like a bargain.
    • tWiggle 10.3

      6 July 2023 at 6:15 pm

      Taking a whole life-cycle approach to costing nuclear power:

      'Using their model, Barron and Hill found that nuclear power is likely to be a far less cost-effective, low-carbon energy source than others had suggested. In fact, their models find nuclear waste disposal to be 2.5 to 4 times more expensive than other models have suggested.

      These new findings support the argument that nuclear power, despite being a low-carbon energy source, may not be cost effective.'
      • pat 10.3.1

        6 July 2023 at 6:27 pm

        In so far as I can ascertain, none of the models include the energy required to mitigate/ decommission nuclear plants and their waste products….if you included such I suspect they would end up being net energy negative.
      • Belladonna 10.3.2

        6 July 2023 at 8:23 pm

        I expect, however, you need to compare to coal-fired plants, rather than to 'green' technologies, like wind or solar.

        Bearing in mind, that there is little, if any, prospect of significant wind, solar or hydro capacity in many countries. So their choices are: continue to burn fossil fuels; massively restrict energy use (unlikely to happen); nuclear power.

        “Waste disposal and decommissioning costs are usually fully included in the operating costs. If the social, health and environmental costs of fossil fuels are also taken into account, the competitiveness of nuclear power is improved.”

        https://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/economic-aspects/economics-of-nuclear-power.aspx
    • Bearded Git 10.4

      6 July 2023 at 10:57 pm

      Nuclear power companies are never honest about decommissioning costs which are often massive.

      When this is taken into account solar is now cheaper and easier…because of this why would anyone choose nuclear, especially given Ukraine type situations.
11. SPC 11

    6 July 2023 at 3:44 pm

    Meta introduces Threads – a rival to Twitter – log in is via Instagram.

    500 character limit.

    It should probably help Twitter with its data management problems, if not the bottom line.

    Musk fans using Instagram will be pulled over …those not on Instagram will have to go through their personal data regime to get on.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-66112648

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