Open mike 06/10/2024

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1. Jenny 1

   6 October 2024 at 7:08 am

   Tomorrow is the anniversary of October 7, Hamas attack How that resulted in the deaths of will it be reported by our media?

   Will we see a repeat of the atrocity propaganda used to justify the genocide in Gaza?
   • Subliminal 1.1

     6 October 2024 at 7:31 am

     The Electronic Intifada has done excellent work throughout the genocide and debunking the rape and baby beheading allegations was certainly one of many high points of their investigative journalism

     Aljazeera has just released a harrowing collation of Israeli war crimes, many of these self reported by IDF soldiers in videos posted on social media. Aljazeera themselves have lost 4 journalists targeted by the IDF in what has easily become the most lethsl war ever for journalists, UN workers, and medics.

     The film opens with a quote from Palestinian novelist Susan Abulhawa: "The West cannot hide, they cannot claim ignorance. Nobody can say they didn’t know. We live in an era of technology and this has been described as the first livestream genocide in history, and I believe that to be true."

     The film is called "Investigating war crimes in Gaza I Al Jazeera Investigations" and can be viewed here:

     https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kPE6vbKix6A
     • SPC 1.1.1

       6 October 2024 at 9:09 am

       There is a case for accusation of war crimes, these occur in most wars.

       Genocide

       the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.

       "a campaign of genocide"

       The practice of warning people to leave areas, is not consistent with that goal.

       There is the more valid claim of collective punishment (but it is Hamas that bases itself underground) and also ethnic cleansing (those not allowed to return 1948 etc, those who have left the West Bank since 1967 because of the continuance of conflict, the economic degradation and the imprisonment of protestors/resistance).

       The BN clique within Likud goal of a permanent occupation of the WB has always been a problem and it is now worse since he chose to include the far right in his coalition.

       But to note that, requires also noting that Iran has a policy of eliminating the nation state of Israel and funding and arming to the last Arab in its resistance groups (whether Palestine, Yemen, Syria, Lebanon Iraq) to war on a member state of the UN.
       • Subliminal 1.1.1.1

         6 October 2024 at 9:31 am

         No. There is a plausible case of genocide to answer. This is not a regular war time occurrence.

         Whatever your reckons on Iranian policy, they have twice now attacked Israel with multiple missile barrages for the loss of one civilian life.

         The Lancet puts the loss of life in Gaza, directly from armaments and indirectly through famine and disease at a conservative 200 000.

         It is Zionism and its creeping ideology that takes every opportunity to erase the indigenous population of Palestine that Iran is opposed to. And it is this opposition that neither the US nor Israel can countenance.
         • SPC 1.1.1.1.1

           6 October 2024 at 10:16 am

           Yes the ICJ determined no more than that there was sufficient cause to accept that there was a plausibility to an accusation of genocide.

           Claims of it, are what they are.

           The amount of aid coming in this winter will be an international issue.

           Lancet journals are internationally trusted sources of clinical, public health, and global health knowledge.

           Its figures here appear to be a projection, that of consequent or subsequent deaths.

           https://aoav.org.uk/2024/a-critical-analysis-of-the-lancets-letter-counting-the-dead-in-gaza-difficult-but-essential-professor-mike-spagat-reviews-the-claim-the-total-gaza-death-toll-may-reach-upwards-of-186000/

           It is Zionism and its creeping ideology that takes every opportunity to erase the indigenous population of Palestine that Iran is opposed to. And it is this opposition that neither the US nor Israel can countenance.

           If Iran was only opposed to the Israeli policy and for the establishment of a second state in Palestine, it would have said that. It has not done so since 1979.
           • Subliminal 1.1.1.1.1.1

             6 October 2024 at 12:19 pm

             Iran has tried endlessly to engage with the US on the JCPOA which was a multinational agreement that the US was just one part. Of course the US can not tolerate an independent resource rich state developing in its own interests so continues to sabotage any normalisation. At the recent UN General Assembly, Pezeshkian, who was elected on a ticket of engaging with the West, brought along the previous FM and JCPOA negotiators. The primary focus was to attempt to generate interest in the sabotaged agreement. Of course, with the drums of war beginning to beat, the US refused to talk.

             Hours after the Iranian missile strike on Israel, Pezeshkian met the Saudi FM and then the Quatari Emir, where they appeared jointly to clearly state their support of the two state solution, as outlined in international law.

             https://m.youtube.com/shorts/zuc3hdL-3_0
             • SPC …

               6 October 2024 at 12:31 pm

               Two positives

               Biden seems to be opposed to any Israeli action against Iran's nuclear sites.

               The current President of Iran is prepared to indicate agreement with the Arab League on work towards a two state policy.

               But this is not the same as ending an agenda to end the state of Israel (Hamas once had two states as a temporary agreement …). That would a change in the policy of Iran and the President does not have the power to do that in their system.
               • Subliminal …

                 6 October 2024 at 12:52 pm

                 Iran is very closely aligned to Russia and China. This is Iran policy. China is very strong on the two state solution. It is unlikely that Pezeskian would be making statements against Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, who has always strived to avoid war, understanding that it can only ever be a last resort. They endured a terrible onslaught when the US backed Saddam Hussein invaded in the 80s.
       • Jenny 1.1.1.2

         6 October 2024 at 10:05 am

         SPC1.1.1

         6 October 2024 at 9:09 am

         ……"a campaign of genocide"

         The practice of warning people to leave areas, is not consistent with that goal.

         In fact the practice of warning people to leave areas, is not just consistent with genocide, it is a prerequisit.

         'The Madagascar Plan'

         From Wikipedia the on line Encyclopedia:

         ….As the efforts by the Nazis to encourage the emigration of the Jewish population of Germany before World War II were only partially successful, the idea of deporting Jews to Madagascar was revived by the Nazi government in 1940.

         Rademacher recommended on 3 June 1940 that Madagascar should be made available as a destination for the Jews of Europe. With Adolf Hitler's approval, Adolf Eichmann released a memorandum on 15 August 1940 calling for the resettlement of a million Jews per year for four years,

         https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar_Plan

         The similiarly unrealisable IDF demand delivered by air dropping leaflets on the city, that the civilian population leave Gaza city within 24 hours or they would be considered "associates" of Hamas terrorists was a clear declaration of the IDF's intention to slaughter all those that remained behind.

         How unealisable was it to expect the Jewish population of Europe to emigrate or face extermination?

         About as realisable as it is to expect the Palestinian population to evacuate a city the size of Auckland in 24 hours or face extermination.

         Consider Auckland, roughly about the same size and population of Gaza, being given 24 hours to get out and relocate to Pukekohe or face death.

         What would you and your family do?
         • SPC 1.1.1.2.1

           6 October 2024 at 10:20 am

           In fact the practice of warning people to leave areas, is not just consistent with genocide, it is a prerequisit.

           An attempt to connect a policy of a request for a temporary evacuation (for safety reasons) with a permanent removal plan and then an action to commit genocide if they remain.

           Gross in debate and even worse as a collective slander.
           • Jenny 1.1.1.2.1.1

             6 October 2024 at 11:22 am

             SPC1.1.1.2.1

             6 October 2024 at 10:20 am

             …..An attempt to connect a policy of a request for a temporary evacuation (for safety reasons) with a permanent removal plan and then an action to commit genocide if they remain.

             SPC claims that the evacuation is only temporary (for safety reasons)

             The many tik tok videos of IDF demolition teams gleefully dancing around as they push the plunger to the blow up multi story appartment blocks would argue otherwise. Would argue that this is not a temporary evacuation.

             The complete sealing off of Northern Gaza, holding up even the meagre food aid that is allowed to enter the territory, from getting to the North, in an attempt to starve the remaining population out, (a practice that the US State Department tried to hide from the world), Would argue that this is not a temporary evacutaion.

             The complete absence of any post-war Israeli plan for governing the population of Gaza, shows that the intent is that Gaza will left with no population to govern.

             I suspect that not only will Palestinians not be allowed to live at least in Northern Gaza, nor will Israelis. That Northern Gaza will be permanently designated a closed military zone, unfit for human habitation. The destruction of all means of human habitation agricultrual fields,water and sewerage treatment, roading infrastructure elctricity grid. Stongly suiggest this outcome.

             SPC, a so called 'request' to leave followed by a death threat is not a request. Any more than the mafia asking for protection money, is a request.

             And finally, 15 thousand Palestinian children killed by Israel is a clear message to get out.
             • SPC …

               6 October 2024 at 11:57 am

               SPC claims that the evacuation is only temporary (for safety reasons)

               Yes, indicative of no intent to bomb places while people were there

               Jenny claims

               that a warning people to leave areas, is not just consistent with genocide, it is a prerequisit.

               The Israelis are only known for collective punishment.

               Jenny’s claim of an intent to commit genocide is what it is.

               AFAIK the talk is roads around north, centre and south (including control of the border), indicative that all 3 areas could be built in.

               But others indicate a future where land along the coast being reserved for future gas business activity.

               Could be both.
       • Muttonbird 1.1.1.3

         6 October 2024 at 12:20 pm

         A fairly narrow definition of genocide. It seems to be a deliberate trick among some to narrow the definition of words like genocide and racism in order to plausibly deny the actions of particular individuals, entities, and states in the employment of those programs.

         For instance, a narrow definition of the word genocide deliberately excludes ethnic cleansing and cultural genocide as forms of destroying a people.

         Surely, the central issue is the illegal occupation of the West Bank. All else stems from there. Because it is illegal in terms of international law it sends a clear message to state and non-state actors that force, regular and irregular, wins and so by that precedent encourages continued resistance from Palestinian guerrilla groups and their supporters. If Israel and the international community refuse to uphold the law then why should Palestinians trust them?

         The supposed position of a few hardline leaders to push Israel into the sea is a red herring used to justify continued occupation and atrocity.
         • SPC 1.1.1.3.1

           6 October 2024 at 1:06 pm

           It was/is the original meaning of the word.

           The terms ethnic cleansing and cultural genocide also have their own distinct meanings.

           False accusations of genocide and racism are easy to dismiss.

           Balkanisation (turf wars between groups with similar background but now different branches of alphabet and branch of Christianity and some Moslems) and Semitism (God of Abraham religions, ME ancestry J1 J2 male lines, local languages – Sunni and Shia Moslems, Arab Christians and Moslems) – neither is a matter of race.

           Surely, the central issue is the illegal occupation of the West Bank

           Yes.

           The supposed position of a few hardline leaders to push Israel into the sea is a red herring used to justify continued occupation and atrocity.

           Yes and no. It is not a red herring, but it used to justify a security first position and deny justice.
   • David 1.2

     6 October 2024 at 8:05 am

     Oh okay so no actual atrocities occurred during the Palestinian Hamas attack on 7 October last year? Some people are still saying the same thing about the holocaust in World War Two.
     • SPC 1.2.1

       6 October 2024 at 8:51 am

       Neither the Oct 7 attack (on IDF positions, taking of hostages from settlements and murder of those at a dance festival) nor the Israeli actions in Gaza since (more akin to Allied bombing of Germany cities in 1944-1945) have anything to do with the attempt at genocide (as per Jews of Europe).
       • David 1.2.1.1

         6 October 2024 at 12:36 pm

         Okay, sorry I didn’t explain properly. I took Jenny’s original comment to be a minimisation of the deaths of hundreds of Israelis on 7 Oct last year. Which is similar to what the holocaust deniers do
         • Muttonbird 1.2.1.1.1

           6 October 2024 at 12:37 pm

           How many Israelis deaths were there in the Holocaust?
     • Subliminal 1.2.2

       6 October 2024 at 9:03 am

       Palestinians have an inalienable right to resist the occupation. This right includes the right to take up arms. All IDF are legitimate targets. It is now well documented that the IDF invoked the "Hannibal directive" to prevent hostages reaching Gaza. Part of this documentation is Israeli pilots of Apache laying waste to cars and running people simply because of the act of running, with hellfire missiles and large calibre machine guns. It also includes Iraeli tank commanders firing on houses in kibbutz regardless of who was inside.

       The scores of burnt out wrecked cars, that could only have been the result of Israeli munitions have mysteriously disappeared and there is no way now of determining the number of civilians murdered by the IDF but given the quantity of munitions expended by the IDF on unidentified targets, this is likely to be high. The Electonic Intifada website above is a great source for the detailed analysis of the panic and kill everything that moves that engulfed the IDF on Oct 7
     • Hanswurst 1.2.3

       6 October 2024 at 9:16 am

       I think it's more about what there is evidence for. If you have some, that would be interesting. If Godwinnish whataboutery is more your thing, though, then you do you, I guess.
     • koina 1.2.4

       6 October 2024 at 10:24 am

       The facts.

       Britain stole Palestine in 1919.

       Britain France Spain had been invading conquering 90% of the world since 1450

       The British French Spanish are the most violent evil people in world history.

       The Jews illegally invaded Palestine in 1948 backed by Britain and France.

       Since 1950 the USA uses Israel as a military base to subjugate 400 mill Muslims.

       Israel claims they need the worlds most powerful military

       to protect themselves from Palestine which has no army no airforce no Navy.

       Oct 2023 a tiny force of brave Palestinians heroes attack the worlds most

       powerful military in attempt to win back their home land .

       Israel/USA began 12 months of genocide against a defenceless Nation to reasert

       the power of the illegal Jewish invasion.

       The White Western Christian media praises the genocide of Mulims
       • SPC 1.2.4.1

         6 October 2024 at 10:44 am

         Britain stole Palestine in 1919.

         A League of Nations mandate to develop the place for self-government. This after the Ottomon Empire had ruled there for centuries.

         The Jews illegally invaded Palestine in 1948 backed by Britain and France.

         The IDF was formed in 1948 by those living there. And defended the state of Israel (formed by the UN partition plan for Palestine) when it was attacked by 5 Arab armies.
         • koina 1.2.4.1.1

           6 October 2024 at 11:23 am

           The League of Nations was just France and Bitain claiming spoils of war.

           Just like Russia has got the "mandate " to invade the Ukraine.

           Just like the USA gave itself the "mandate" to invade Vietnam.

           Just like the USA gave itself the "mandate" to invade Afghanistan.

           Like USA gave herself the "mandate to invaded Iraq on the false premise of

           looking for weapoms of mass destruction which they didn't find.

           At the same time the USA was supplying Israel with nuclear weapons.

           Like Britain gave itself the "mandate" to invade these islands from 1840.

           Like Britain gave itself the mandate to invade conquer and steal Australia.

           Like Britain gave itself the mandate to invade and steal North America.

           White Western Christian Europeans are the most evil race on planet earth.

           But they remain deliberately ignorant of their crimes.
           • SPC 1.2.4.1.1.1

             6 October 2024 at 11:43 am

             At the same time the USA was supplying Israel with nuclear weapons

             What is your evidence for that?

             Ever tried to use google?

             The Argentine government agreed to sell Israel yellowcake (uranium oxide). Between 1963 and 1966, about 90 tons of yellowcake were allegedly shipped to Israel from Argentina in secret. By 1965 the Israeli reprocessing plant was completed and ready to convert the reactor's fuel rods into weapons grade plutonium.

             In September of 1957, in response to France's continued isolation by the US and UK in nuclear-related research, French premier Bourges- Maunoury with the French army chief of staff decided to provide further weapons-related nuclear technology to Israel.
           • SPC 1.2.4.1.1.2

             6 October 2024 at 11:46 am

             The League of Nations was just

             Yeah sure stealing the ME from the Ottoman empire to prepare the way for Arab nation self government was just another white person wring doing …
     • Jenny 1.2.5

       6 October 2024 at 10:44 am

       David, nobody here is denying that atrocities didn't happen on October 7, nor is anyone trying to justify the atrocities that did occur.

       Atrocities committed by Hamas and other militant groups in Israel on October 7 cannot be used to justify genocide. In fact nothing can be used to justify genocide, not even genocide.
       • David 1.2.5.1

         6 October 2024 at 12:55 pm

         Jenny, your comment seemed to minimise what happened on October 7. It was an atrocity irrespective of some of the more exaggerated claims. I’m certainly not suggesting that the Israelis are right in what they’re doing.
       • tWig 1.2.5.2

         6 October 2024 at 2:53 pm

         ' In fact nothing can be used to justify genocide, not even genocide'

         100%, Jenny.

         And the political aim of removal of the State of Israel is not a genocidist position as such. I don’t agree with it, but it is a valid position. Removal of all Israeli Jews in Israel by killing them, or forcing migration, or perhaps even making them second-class citizens probably would be.
         • SPC 1.2.5.2.1

           6 October 2024 at 3:21 pm

           And the political aim of removal of the State of Israel is not a genocidist position as such.

           Removal sounds like a form of cultural/ethnic nation genocide though, no?

           The equivalent would be the annexation of the WB is not a genocidist position as such.

           Yet Removal of any nation state, without the population's consent is in breach of the UN founding charter and the collective security of nations. It being the equivalent of supporting annexation of another nations territory.

           I don’t agree with it, but it is a valid position.

           It being the equivalent of saying supporting the annexation of another nations territory is a valid position.

           Removal of all Israeli Jews in Israel by killing them, or forcing migration, or perhaps even making them second-class citizens probably would be.

           So the annexing power would have to allow the local residents to largely remain and have equal citizenship.

           The question is then about "managing" any resistance to the annexation?
   • Mikey 1.3

     6 October 2024 at 8:54 am

     It wouldn't surprise me if we see another pointless rocket assault that provokes yet more destruction.
2. Adrian 2

   6 October 2024 at 8:24 am

   Well David if you want to bring WW2 into it, the IDF certainly learnt a lot from the Gestapo.
   • SPC 2.1

     6 October 2024 at 8:46 am

     The IDF is a military, Gestapo a secret/internal control police. If bringing history into it, be pertinent.
     • koina 2.1.1

       6 October 2024 at 10:44 am

       Using the The 1940's holocaust to Justify Israels genocide is a false narrative.

       The Muslims had nothing to do with the 1940's holocaust.

       The 1940's holocaust was actually carried out by the White European Christians

       Thats right the German Austrian Netherlands Belgium Polish Russian French

       Estonian latvian Lithuanian Czech, Romanian Slovinian Croatian Slovakian

       Hungarian Italian Ukranian Belarussian Christians all gave up their Jews

       Why?

       Apparently the Jews had been hated for a thousand years in Europe.

       The question remains why did the Jewish God Yahweh not stop the holocaust?

       The question also is why did the Christian God not stop the holcaust?

       Either both Yahweh and Jesus agreed with the holocaust or neither exists.

       Why did no God stop the second world war which cost 75 million lives?

       So tthe Jew/USA military should be having a genocidal war with

       murdering evil White Western European Christians.

       But instead the Jew/USA alliance invades a small innocent Muslim Nation

       subjugating and brutally punishing any attempts toward Palestinian freedom.

       American and Jewish stupidity racism Religious fascism and brutality knows no limits.
       • SPC 2.1.1.1

         6 October 2024 at 10:56 am

         Using the The 1940's holocaust to Justify Israels genocide is a false narrative.

         What genocide? And no one is using the 1940's holocaust to justify war crimes or ethnic cleansing by Israel.
       • SPC 2.1.1.2

         6 October 2024 at 10:58 am

         Apparently the Jews all those not the right sort of Christian had been hated for a thousand years in Europe.
       • SPC 2.1.1.3

         6 October 2024 at 11:20 am

         Why did no God stop the second world war which cost 75 million lives?

         Your focus on Jewish and Christian deaths to disprove their God. Then another focus on the wrong doings of European Christians and Jews as per their morality, as per colonialism or conflict with Moslems (who made a few invasions of Europe pre the Crusades) is indicative of your bias/grievance.

         Power corrupts. Plato put it that ethical philosophers should rule – this being more important than whether they were dynastic by birth, or chosen by voters.

         We developed democracy to reduce the risk of it, but with built in constitutional safeguards (ethical constraints).

         Ethical philosophy 101

         If God was acting immediately and everywhere to ensure right outcome and perfect justice, there would be no human dominion or free will. It would be like parenting children for life – the little tin drummer boy, no one grows up free and in safety unless all do (Gunter Grasse).

         {If you want this society, there are those seeking to provide this God order of this world option for the wealthy and well to do to manage the precariat with more and more advanced tech across the generations – see feudal order, these people are not ethical philosophers and the order will be corrupt/unaccountable/Project 2025 is stage one – making the invisible version of HUAC more public}

         Just maybe (deist and or agnostic, someone not a supramacist in their religious faith) is that if there is a God, this God chose to allow a universe where those with dominance on a planet have their dominion. And learn that resources are finite and that co-operation is essential to develop and sustain civilisation in their habitat for mortal life.
         • koina 2.1.1.3.1

           6 October 2024 at 11:45 am

           You have no real answers to any of my challenges .

           No matter how much you ramble you factually have no answers to my truth.

           Your views are also so heavily drenched in racial prejudice and ignorance

           that you can't see past your nose.

           By hiding behind your nonsense you simply prove all my points are true.

           I am simply too smart for you.
           • SPC 2.1.1.3.1.1

             6 October 2024 at 11:48 am

             You debate like an Aryan pretending to be someone you are not.
             • koina …

               6 October 2024 at 3:29 pm

               You sound like an Aryan wannabe fraud who has been found out .

               Again you refuse to address any of my points but continue to

               hide behind intellectual gymnsatics and filibuster because you are

               afraid to face the truth.

               I am not fooled one bit by your waffle.

               I repeat I am too smart for you.
               • SPC …

                 6 October 2024 at 3:36 pm

                 Adopting Donald Trump as a role model is not wise.
       • Adrian 2.1.1.4

         6 October 2024 at 11:59 am

         There is no God.
         • Mikey 2.1.1.4.1

           7 October 2024 at 6:50 am

           Correct.
     • Jenny 2.1.2

       6 October 2024 at 11:47 am

       SPC @2.1

       6 October 2024 at 8:46 am

       The IDF is a military, Gestapo a secret/internal control police. ….

       Where the Nazis may have left the Gestapo to run the prison system, the IDF has no such seperation. They do it all.

       From Wikipedia the online encyclopedia:

       <

       blockquote>
       In all, there are ten detention centers operated by the IDF, located in the various military police bases, divided into the three regional commands (northern, central, southern). These detention centers are considered part of the law enforcement sector and are under the command of their respective base commanders.

       Israeli military prison – Wikipedia

       ‘Rotten to the core’:
       Inside the Israeli and IDF system of incarcerating Palestinians

       ABC News’ Britt Clennett investigates stories of whistleblowers and a freed Palestinian prisoner who allege violent abuse inside prisons run by Israel and its military.
       • SPC 2.1.2.1

         6 October 2024 at 11:50 am

         That would be for those not Israeli citizens, not Israeli Arabs.

         A catch all of the occupation, as many have not been tried.
         • Jenny 2.1.2.1.1

           6 October 2024 at 2:26 pm

           You have stopped making sense.
           • SPC 2.1.2.1.1.1

             6 October 2024 at 2:39 pm

             FYI. The SS ran the camps from 1933 to 1945, in and out of Germany. They also had military units.
             • aj …

               6 October 2024 at 3:10 pm

               The German army actually had some principles and morals amongst it's leadership. Army officers were involved in attempts to assassinate Hitler.
               • SPC …

                 6 October 2024 at 3:28 pm

                 Just like the Russians in Ukraine?

                 Israel has elections.

                 Many of the reservists were dragged back in by the October 7 events, some were indicating a refusal to serve again on the WB etc. Many ex IDF were involved in the peace process, Rabin and Barak.

                 Even Sharon left Likud to enact disengagement from occupation. Gantz did the same to form Blue and White.
     • lprent 2.1.3

       6 October 2024 at 6:06 pm

       Yeah, the umbrella that is the Schutzstaffel (SS) is probably more relevant. A paramilitary force that kept growing, with ideological 'protection', armed wings, and eventually purely genocidal wings.

       The Gestapo were just a intelligence subdivision of the SS. You probably should look at the history some time or Himmler’s empire.

       Based on what we are seeing in Gaza, the settlers and IDF (in)actions in the West Bank – I suspect that the IDF is starting to morph a genocidal wing.
       • SPC 2.1.3.1

         6 October 2024 at 7:25 pm

         From Hitler's personal security group, as distinct from the street thugs (SA).

         Sure, the group set up to take over the states security police was his own groups adjunct. And then they took out the SA (too independent a "culture").

         The distinction is that the gestapo were a domestic and European wide secret police.

         Haganah pre 1948 had an intelligence associate, as does the IDF, like any nation state military. The distinction (since 1967) is in having an occupation and prisoners not managed by normal nation state due process. Thus Aman, has oversight of the Palestinian prisons, including those not charged.

         Apart from civilian police (due process for citizens) with a domestic and border swat unit, there is also a domestic (Shin Bet) and external (Mossad) agency.

         Based on what we are seeing in Gaza, the settlers and IDF (in)actions in the West Bank – I suspect that the IDF is starting to morph a genocidal wing.

         A loss of ethical leadership (born since c1965 or 1977 and promoted by BN, without knowledge of the pre 67 and pre 77 Israel), sense of WB settler entitlement and conscription of those born since the failure of Oslo Accords in 2000, is what it is.

         Whatever one calls it, the excesses or wtf, it will only manifest in “war-time”, in “management of Palestinian prisons”, or “decision-making related to management of the occupation”. Because the population is stuck in security first mode and BN's determination on permanent occupation.

         As with the USA (Project 2025), there is the issue of the future of the Supreme Court as to continuance of the basic law – norms of a internal democracy.
         • lprent 2.1.3.1.1

           9 October 2024 at 2:35 pm

           Net effect is that 7.5 million Jewish Israeli citizens are manifesting a non-democratic, non-due process and highly unjust system on about million Palestinians using military law, a military blockade, and punative second class laws on about 7 million 'Arab' inside the area of Palestine.

           https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_State_of_Palestine

           Not to mention the numbers outside that geographic region

           The excesses run all of the time – not just in wartime. You only have to look at the court procedures used in the military occupation – the ones that usually don't allow defendants and any representation that they have to even know the charges before they are to enter a plea.

           The only reason that this is being exposed so much now is because there is so much international attention being focused on it.

           Of course the usual way that Israeli manages the rapes, abuse and deaths of Palestinians and other 'arab' minorities is to neither allow complaints to be pursued, nor to deal with the abusers, and definitely not to allow press and investigators clear access to follow up on complaints.

           Just like they don't allow journalists in the Gaza or the West Bank, and \, or even just locals who document abuses. Like this 19yo citizen photo journalist in Gaza a few days ago killed in a deliberately targeted drone strike.

           Face it. It isn't BN.

           All Israelis are complicit in this state sponsored terrorism. Israel is just a state founded on terrorism prior to 1948 and a state that has continued throughout its short history to keep escalating it.

           There hasn't been a serious attempt by Israel to implement anything close to the 1947 Palestinian partition. They have had the freedom to do that since they have dropped out of a official state of war with Egypt and Jordan many decades ago. Their remaining borders in contention are with Syria and Lebanon – neither of which affect the Palestinian state. Instead Israel has just kept unlawfully seizing and claiming land in the Negev and West Bank.

           Israel should be kicked out of the UN for that reason alone. Israel has had ample opportunity to resolve the Palestinian state, but appears to have entered a state of outright theft and effectively slavery on the indigenous population.

           Basically in my view all people who support Israel financially are just terrorist supporters – as responsible for terrorism as any supporters of Hamas. They have direct responsibility for far more terrorist acts than all of Hamas, the various parts of PLO, or Hezbollah combined when you look at the IDF occupations and attacks on Palestine and Lebanon.

           Personally I think that NZ should start designating terrorist organisations inside the Israeli state and other bodies who fund and supply the Jewish terrorist organisations in the West Bank. Start with the IDF, the sttler organisations and work outwards. NZ can provide an example for other states and the UN to follow.

           Treat than the same as we do with the parts of Hamas in Palestine and Hezbollah/Islamic Resistance in Lebanon. Both arose out of long occupations by Israel, and are listed in our designated entities. I can't see any reason why Israeli organisations aren't listed there as well. None of them are..

           And obviously in both peace and war time, Israeli's are always barbarian arseholes.
           • SPC 2.1.3.1.1.1

             9 October 2024 at 2:46 pm

             The no other nation line, the exception, all its citizens …
             • lprent …

               9 October 2024 at 3:32 pm

               At present Israel has Iran in the background. But mostly it is attacking people who it has been occupying for long periods of time.

               More than 50 years in the case of Palestine. About 30 of the last 50 in the case of South Lebanon.

               The Palestinians have never occupied parts of Israel since 1948 fro more than a few days and the the Lebanese might have a week in 1948.

               Over the past 80 years, casualties amongst civilians for Israel from either Palestinians or Lebanese have probably been less than 5k. Direct casualties of Palestinian or Lebanese civilians are probably approaching or past half a million.

               The same applies to civilians starved, dying of lack of medical attention, and even military casualties

               If you want to look at false equivalences as a defence, then perhaps you should offer some. Rather than taking like a coward's avoidance route.

               The problem with Israel is that the migrant peoples who they used to populate that state seem to be taking their previous oppression by other polities out on the relatively defenceless locals. I guess that is gutless cowards do.. past-trauma. I guess it easier that way.

               I can’t see any reason to condone the behaviour.
               • SPC …

                 9 October 2024 at 3:44 pm

                 You are aware that many regard Hezbollah as Iran's occupation force in Lebanon?

                 What does a former PM of Lebanon say as per Res 1701.

                 https://thestandard.org.nz/daily-review-08-10-2024/#comment-2013388

                 The current Mayor of Beirut.

                 https://thestandard.org.nz/daily-review-08-10-2024/#comment-2013414

                 Iraq, Libya and Syria and Ukraine. The USA backed Saudi bombing (and famine) in Yemen?

                 Perspective?

                 You will be pleased to know that Iran has declared for decades an intent to end Israel and has armed groups with missiles to act as a proxy and Russia has designs on another nation state (nova Russia or more in Ukraine).

                 Historically Iraq in Kuwait and N Korea in S Korea were seen off by the UN.
                 • lprent …

                   9 October 2024 at 4:06 pm

                   Sure – and… because Israel has been avoiding doing what it should have done 40-50 years ago to create a state of Palestine it has left the gate open for Iran to fill a power vacuum.

                   What exactly did you or Israel expect. If you can't resolve the problem, the others will intervene. That Iran is so heavily involved in Hamas and Hezbollah is a direct result of Israeli policies.

                   And we all know why Israel didn't approach ANY resolution in good faith. Land grabs in the West Bank, the border areas in Lebanon up to and past the blue line. The Israeli idea of ‘trading land for peace’ was that the Palestinians and Lebanese should give up more land that they lived in to the Israelis.

                   It certainly wasn't based on Israel withdrawing from lands that they occupied.

                   Basically Israeli policies are directly or indirectly mostly responsible for most of the last 40 odd years of actual inter-state conflict in the Arab states. ie after the first Gulf war.

                   They keep a cause celeb fro conflicts to form around because they cannot resolve their internal politics enough to work out a peaceful and equitable partition of Palestine.

                   They also keep dragging the rest of the world into their self-indulgent domination games in the Knesset.
                   • lprent …

                     9 October 2024 at 4:22 pm

                     I'd also point out that this was the same daft political processes that caused the Judean kingdoms in the Roman era to move from being client states with a limited suzerainty to having all political power removed. At least according to the rather pissed off Roman chroniclers of the really stupid rebellions.
                 • lprent …

                   9 October 2024 at 4:30 pm

                   Historically Iraq in Kuwait and N Korea in S Korea were seen off by the UN.

                   Yep – and Israeli should be kicked out of the Palestine state by the UN. Here is the map from Resolution 181 in 1947. Looks like the best solution to me. For a starter it has already been voted on a little under 80 years ago..

                   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine

                   
                   • Tiger Mountain …

                     9 October 2024 at 4:35 pm

                     
3. Bearded Git 3

   6 October 2024 at 9:28 am

   This should be the final nail in the coffin of the government's silly plan to build expensive Liquified Natural Gas (LNG) facilities to import LNG instead of burning imported coal.

   "Exported gas emits far more greenhouse gas emissions than coal, despite fossil-fuel industry claims it is a cleaner alternative, according to a major new research paper that challenges the controversial yet rapid expansion of gas exports from the US to Europe and Asia….the research….has concluded that LNG is 33% worse in terms of planet-heating emissions over a 20-year period compared with coal.

   “The idea that coal is worse for the climate is mistaken – LNG has a larger greenhouse gas footprint than any other fuel,” said Robert Howarth, an environmental scientist at Cornell University and author of the new paper."

   https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/oct/04/exported-liquefied-natural-gas-coal-study

   Incidentally, as I posted earlier this week, over the last 10 years coal has produced only around 5.5% of NZ's electricity; sod all really. This will almost certainly be replaced by already consented solar and wind with attached battery storage in the next few years.

   ANYONE WHO HAS SUBMITTED ON THE BILL TO REINSTATE OFFSHORE OIL AND GAS EXPLORATION SHOULD MENTION THIS WHEN APPEARING BEFORE THE SELECT COMMITTEE
   • SPC 3.1

     6 October 2024 at 9:46 am

     While using domestic gas from existing fields and pipelines is better than using coal …

     Drilling, moving, cooling and shipping gas from one country to another uses so much energy that the actual final burning of gas in people’s homes and businesses only accounts for about a third of the total emissions from this process, the research finds.

     The article clarifies this later

     Howarth’s paper finds that as much as 3.5% of the gas delivered to customers leaks to the atmosphere unburned, much more than previously assumed. Methane is about 80 times more powerful as a greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide, even though it persists for less time in the atmosphere, and scientists have warned that rising global methane emissions risk blowing apart agreed-upon climate goals.

     Howarth’s research found that during LNG production, around half of the total emissions occur during the long journey taken by gas as it is pushed through pipelines to coastal terminals after it is initially drilled, usually via hydraulic fracturing, or fracking, from areas such as the US’s vast shale deposits.

     The energy used to do this, along with the leaks, causes pollution that is exacerbated once the gas gets to the export facilities. There, it is supercooled to -162C (-260F) to become a liquid, which is loaded into huge storage containers on tankers. The tankers then travel long distances to deliver the product to client countries, where it is turned back into a gas and then burned.

     “This whole process is much more energy intensive than coal,” said Howarth. “The science is pretty clear here: it’s wishful thinking that the gas miraculously moves overseas without any emissions..
     • Mac1 3.1.1

       6 October 2024 at 11:58 am

       Enough with the science and the logic already!

       Wish I knew that when I made my submission, or asked to appear so I could reiterate that. However, I'm sure that far better advocates will appear before the committee but whether they're heard is another thing.

       As for the committee. There are foolish fools and ignorant fools, and I hope we're arguing with the latter.
     • Jenny 3.1.2

       6 October 2024 at 2:39 pm

       Just out of curiosity SPC. If you were asked by a person on the street, "Are you a Zionist?" What would your answer be?

       I find it interesting that all the defenders of Israel's actions in Gaza and the occupied territories on this site, none will admit to being Zionists.

       Why is that, do you think?
       • SPC 3.1.2.1

         6 October 2024 at 2:58 pm

         Zionism is generally defined as a form of Jewish nationalism, though some ascribe to it support from American Christians (especially those with an end time prophecy aspect to their faith).

         But the initial establishment support for a Jewish homeland state was from the UK government as an imperial policy for the administration of Palestine (presumably seen as a sound position as to the route to India and of course their oil interests in Iraq).

         No association with any of that is required to disagree with some of the content of your posts.

         And few, if any, here doing so would qualify as being one.

         My first experience of this debate was in the early 2000's – where I was pro or anti-Zionist, based on the position of others. The, in this camp or that camp nature of the framing of this by the protagonist, is what it is.
         • Tiger Mountain 3.1.2.1.1

           9 October 2024 at 4:56 pm

           As dear old master equivocator Shakespeare put it…“False face must hide what the false heart doth know.”
           • SPC 3.1.2.1.1.1

             9 October 2024 at 5:10 pm

             J'Accuse.

             https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/martin-niemoeller-first-they-came-for-the-socialists
       • lprent 3.1.2.2

         6 October 2024 at 5:57 pm

         This looks like it is a comment for a different thread?

         I don't quite see what it has to do with gas. Some hot air definition perhaps?

         😈
4. Muttonbird 4

   6 October 2024 at 9:52 am

   

   The decline under this shopping trolley government has been as precipitous as it has been perilous. The running aground of HMNZS Manawanui on a Samoan reef yesterday mirrors the actions of this government, hasty and ill-informed change risks disaster.

   How embarrassing for Luxon and Willis that it is the Samoan fire and rescue service saving New Zealanders’ lives instead of the other way around.

   So many questions; what role did Kiwrail play in this disaster, and who knew Casey Costello was at the helm? Is it time for the Royal New Zealand Navy to be sold to private interests? Perhaps the Para Rubber New Zealand Navy would do a better job.

   Meanwhile, this vessel which cost $150m is now on fire, it’s been in service for New Zealand just 5 years:

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350441671/flames-coming-nz-navy-ship-which-hit-samoan-reef
   • Cricklewood 4.1

     6 October 2024 at 10:25 am

     Here's hoping it doesnt break up on the reef and spew fuel oil etc before it can be salvaged. Could be a real disaster.
     • Muttonbird 4.1.1

       6 October 2024 at 10:28 am

       The ship, or this country?
     • SPC 4.1.2

       6 October 2024 at 10:31 am

       One wonders what the final bill will be? Salvage, environment damage clean up and compensation etc.
       • Muttonbird 4.1.2.1

         6 October 2024 at 10:48 am

         Apparently, it’s gone:

         The HMNZS Manawanui sank this morning after running aground on a reef near the southern coast of Upolu in Samoa last night and catching on fire , according to a New Zealander on the shore.

         “It’s gone,” Dave Poole told the Herald.

         Poole, who is on a seven-day holiday in Samoa with his wife Kara saw the news about the ship on X( formerly Twitter) about 3.30am and drove 30 minutes from the capital Apia to the coastline this morning to watch the stricken ship one nautical mile offshore where he met local police officers.

         “When we got there it wasn’t on fire. We watched the fire take hold and the whole infrastructure was burning pretty brightly. You could see it was listed over the port side and then it just went down and gone,” he said.

         Poole who took a series of photos showing the last moments of the Manawanui, said the ship sunk at about 8.45am.

         https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/hmnzs-manawanui-on-fire-and-tilting-badly-after-it-ran-aground-off-the-coast-of-samoa-last-night/44PLWNBV6RBVJHLVHARNGMOUKU/

         Doesn’t seem like a patch it up and tow it somewhere operation.
         • Cricklewood 4.1.2.1.1

           6 October 2024 at 11:20 am

           Seems and avoid enviromental disaster operation now. Could make irex look cheap
           • Matiri 4.1.2.1.1.1

             6 October 2024 at 11:29 am

             Hope Nicola didn't decide to cancel the insurance policy to save money!
       • Obtrectator 4.1.2.2

         6 October 2024 at 12:08 pm

         I've a horrible feeling that Samoa will be left holding most of the tab for this, especially the non-financial portions
   • Anne 4.2

     6 October 2024 at 10:31 am

     "Perhaps the Para Rubber New Zealand Navy would do a better job."

     They could build a new one in their Wairau Rd store in Auckland.

     Seriously its a bad accident. How did it happen? The fire is increasing in size and the ship likely to sink.
   • SPC 4.3

     6 October 2024 at 10:37 am

     Ron Mark, … He was puzzled to understand what happened because the ship was “top of the line” in terms of its capabilities.

     “It's confusing how she's in this situation right now,” he said. “She’s a hydrographic ship. She has some of the best equipment on board for surveying the sea floor.

     James Cook mapped countries and oceans without grounding.

     Manawanui being out of active service would remove a “very valuable capability”, Mark also said, given the ship’s ability to quickly map an area after an earthquake to confirm how much the seabed had shifted was “invaluable”.

     Yeah we might need a new one/replacement or the cost of getting it to a shipyard.

     Maybe we gift the wreck to Samoa as a diving site?

     It reminds one of when the American Pacific fleet kept sailing into freighters and one thought they'll never get the Americans Cup back (not without the help of Kiwis or Australians as per the Oracle era).

     Not a good omen, now when the British are still embarrassed over never having won the Auld Mug.
     • Stan 4.3.1

       6 October 2024 at 10:44 am

       Actually Cook did ground his ship on the Great Barrier Reef, came very close to sinking. Had to throw anything heavy, such as cannons, off the boat to keep afloat until could be beached, for repairs.
       • SPC 4.3.1.1

         6 October 2024 at 10:51 am

         … without abandoning ship then.

         Presumably the incident (how did we lose a ship) review will cover whether they could have determined on a strategy to float off the reef or not.
   • joe90 4.4

     6 October 2024 at 12:03 pm

     Scuttlebutt is that it was a thruster fault.
     • Muttonbird 4.4.1

       6 October 2024 at 12:26 pm

       Well, Farrar's mob, which he is surely responsible for, are certain it's because the commander is a woman, a homosexual woman at that.
       • Mac1 4.4.1.1

         6 October 2024 at 12:28 pm

         So, according to that outstanding logic, all other shipping disasters can be blamed on heterosexual men, for reason of their gender and/or sexuality?
         • Muttonbird 4.4.1.1.1

           6 October 2024 at 12:34 pm

           Yep, and that theory must extend to the incompetency of all women in positions of responsibility. A theory which would by definition capture Nicola Willis.
           • tWig 4.4.1.1.1.1

             6 October 2024 at 3:03 pm

             Don't worry, bad news politicos will be ditched by the Nats, and the other rw parties 6 months before the election. Scapegoats for government policy irretrievably linked to their media delivery of unpopular policies. Luxon will be pushed overboard too before then, I'm thinking.
     • joe90 4.4.2

       6 October 2024 at 2:16 pm

       Odds they've pulled off another Upham by cheaping out and modifying a used vessel?

       https://www.man-es.com/marine/products/four-stroke-engines/man-175d/man-175d-powers-up-the-big-heart-of-royal-new-zealand-navy%27s-fleet

       Two helical gear wheels of a ducted azimuth thruster were examined. The helical gear wheel failure was caused by localized overstress on the teeth surface, probably related with the converting of the vessel, which required additional power.

       https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1350630711001841
       • SPC 4.4.2.1

         6 October 2024 at 2:47 pm

         https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/1fx1f81/hmnzs_manawanui_has_sunk/
       • Scud 4.4.2.2

         6 October 2024 at 6:35 pm

         Well the original planned ship was going to cost around $250m and the Navy had the Budget until the Frigate Upgrades blew up Budget which to some was a low ball Tender signed off by National with Treasury advice, and again against the advice of the Navy & MoD.

         (shades of the Cole's report where the then Labour/Alliance Coalition & Treasury didn't heed the NZDF or MoD advice or the NZDF's Lessons learnt from East Timor/ INTERFET Deployment)

         The Labour/ NZG Coalition brought this War Canoe, because Robo & Treasury refuse to top up the Frigate upgrade budget & told them to find the money within the NZDF Capital Procurement Budget!

         Ron Mark was bloody furious at this move as the NZDF, MoD had spent a lot of time & money in planning for this new ship! Plus they had been talking to the likes of NIWA, Geonet & other Government Agencies like MoT etc. So they could avoid the shit fight like what happened with the OPV's as they are no longer fit for duties Sth of NZ.

         This new ship was also provide the RNZN a vital stepping stone towards the new SOPV which was also later shit canned by Robo & Treasury!

         So in the end, the MoD & RNZN had to buy a 2nd hand ship on civilian market for $140m before the necessary Military modifications were made to it!

         Which btw didn't really save Robo nor Treasury much money in the end compared to purpose design & built ship that Navy wanted before it hit that reef/ rock in the Samoa LoL.
   • Graeme 4.5

     6 October 2024 at 12:15 pm

     Russia extracts utu for the Mikhail Lermentov ….

     In 1986 I spent most of my free time recreating with a group which included some people who had really cool jobs running around the country and world having insane adventured doing things that never happened. The hydrographic branch of RNZN were on the scene pretty quickly and there were a few familiar bods on TV. Something was up.
   • Muttonbird 4.6

     6 October 2024 at 12:52 pm

     A brutal comment from the Samoa Fire and Emergency Services Authority on the competency of the Royal New Zealand Navy:

     If you're unsure about our sea areas, please BE CAREFUL, TAKE CAUTION and STAY SAFE!!

     My bold.

     https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/hmnzs-manawanui-on-fire-and-tilting-badly-after-it-ran-aground-off-the-coast-of-samoa-last-night/44PLWNBV6RBVJHLVHARNGMOUKU/
   • Muttonbird 4.7

     6 October 2024 at 1:29 pm

     JuCo finally shows up to a presser 16 hours after the grounding. Still, we know her first reaction to industrial disaster is to hide, see the Ruakaka swamp kauri digger.

     And I wonder where that idiotic, bald, manager clown is today? You might think the sinking of a $150m asset and an impending environmental disaster for one of our Pacific neighbours and caused by us might come up on his radar while slumming it at premier house…apparently not.

     https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/350441771/evacuation-manawanui-after-samoa-grounding-saved-lives-says-navy-chief
   • Muttonbird 4.8

     6 October 2024 at 1:47 pm

     Remember when ACT and National Party apologist and promoter, Heather Duplicity-Allen described the Pacific Islands as leeches?

     "I mean, it's the Pacific Islands," she said. "What are we going to get out of them? They are nothing but leeches on us. I mean, the Pacific Islands want money from us. We don't need money from them."

     https://www.rnz.co.nz/international/pacific-news/386314/breach-upheld-over-kiwi-talkback-host-heather-du-plessis-allan-s-pacific-leeches-comments

     Will we see a thanks and an apology from our cruel South African immigrant for those comments in light if the Samoan people via the Samoa Fire and Emergency Services Authority saving 75 lives aboard HMNZS Manawanui?
   • adam 4.9

     6 October 2024 at 6:35 pm

     There goes the navy being able to move people across the straight.
   • Muttonbird 4.10

     6 October 2024 at 6:47 pm

     A bit more information on the timeline here:

     The ship was surveying up to a particular point but ran aground at 6:46pm, apparently after finishing this work?

     Sunset in the region is currently 6:24pm and if anyone knows these latitudes it gets dark very quickly after sunset.

     Basically, in this area there should be no boat movements after dark because it is very dangerous, especially close to a reef. Locals know this.

     Have to wonder whether the command was pushing the boundaries of safe operation in order to maximise work done at minimum cost and less regard for safety as per ideological instruction from the current government.

     Also, did you know Judith Collins husband is from Samoa?

     Talofa.
5. SPC 5

   6 October 2024 at 4:15 pm

   While CLuxon is having a day off.

   https://www.beehive.govt.nz/

   He must be preparing for the questions on Monday.

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/350441898/government-announces-massive-new-fast-track-list

   What will be released next Sunday?

   Monday 14 October election (year from the election).

   If its anything, there is beware 27 No0vember.

   He likes plans for days of weeks or months, what will he want for a year?

   A commemoration coin? A golden staircase?

   Or use the property sales to buy a private jet?
6. Joe90 6

   6 October 2024 at 4:34 pm

   It was quite the send-off. (video)

   @JohnCleese

   Remembering a dear friend, the always late Graham Chapman. He ceased to be 35 years ago today.

   https://xcancel.com/JohnCleese/status/1842403911715459195
7. adam 7

   6 October 2024 at 6:32 pm

   Colonial state kills more children

   The settlers clap

   200 civilians to one leader

   Fundamentalist violence

   Wargasim
8. Tony Veitch 8

   6 October 2024 at 6:32 pm

   Well, well, well. It appears, from TV1 News tonight, that Nicole McKee has been telling porkies about the advice she gave to Paula Bennett about closing a loophole that enabled the mosque killer!

   Baldrick must be ruing the day he sold his soul to ACT and NZF to obtain his knighthood!
9. joe90 9

   6 October 2024 at 7:30 pm

   WaPo freebie: How Helene became a ‘worst case scenario’

   .

   These inland mountain communities are often safe from tropical storms. The cyclones that batter the U.S. southeastern coasts typically weaken as they come ashore. Many peter out before they reach a mountain town like Chimney Rock.

   But this time, something different happened. Helene moved fast and carried its warm, moist air hundreds of miles inland into the Carolinas.

   “It was a worst-case scenario for the type of tropical system that could deliver really extreme impacts that far inland,” said Gary Lackmann, professor of atmospheric sciences at N.C. State University.

   Here’s what fueled Helene and caused so much devastation in the Appalachian Mountains.

   https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/interactive/2024/helene-flooding-damage-north-carolina-chimney-rock/
10. James Thrace 10

    6 October 2024 at 7:39 pm

    Really feels like there should be a perma-post dedicated solely to Israel/Palestine at this stage. Having to scroll through endless debates about Israel/Palestine for anything else is becoming tedious.

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