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Open Mike 06/02/2017

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, February 6th, 2017 - 68 comments
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68 comments on “Open Mike 06/02/2017 ”

  1. Yes , well , part of a lot of the misunderstanding and division and manipulation down through the decades might have been through THIS :

    ( Please ignore the awful music the video plays. )

    Littlewood Treaty ~ The Treaty of Waitangi ~ History of New Zealand ..


    The video has been disabled by the video owner, so therefore I provided the Title.

    Here are a few links to other sites that you can read.



    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • One Anonymous Bloke 1.1

      Whatever the English versions say is irrelevant. The legally binding document is the one written in te reo.

      That is a matter of international law.

      How stupid would you look if you took your case to some higher tribunal without even knowing that basic principle? The phrase “laughed out of court” springs to mind.

      • Wayne 1.1.1

        You are not really correct on international law and treaties. When there are two or more languages it is the common understanding that counts. One text does not overrule the other.
        In a sense that is what the Court of Appeal did in the lands case.

        • Sacha

          As a comment notes in the post where this thread originated, international law states in treaties of *colonisation* that the indigenous language version wins: https://thestandard.org.nz/waitangi-day-2017/#comment-1296298

          That’s what I’ve always heard too.

        • One Anonymous Bloke

          Well that’s as clear as mud. What the hell is “common understanding”, other than a contradiction in terms?

          According to the Waitangi Tribunal – who ought to know:

          Relevant principles are:

          a) The primary duty of a tribunal charged with interpreting a treaty is to give effect to the expressed intention of the parties, that is, their intention as expressed in the words used by them in the light of surrounding circumstances.

          b) It is necessary to bear in mind the overall aim and purpose of the treaty.

          c) In relation to bilingual treaties neither text is superior.

          d) Given that almost all Māori signatories signed the Māori text, considerable weight should be given to that version.

          e) The contra proferentem rule that in the event of ambiguity such a provision should be construed against the party which drafted or proposed that provision (in this case the Crown) applies.

          f) The United States Supreme Court ‘indulgent rule’ that treaties with indigenous people (American Indians) should be construed ‘in the sense which they would naturally be understood by Indians’ supports the principle (d) above.

          g) Treaties should be interpreted in the spirit in which they were drawn taking into account the surrounding circumstances and any declared or apparent objects and purposes.

          So, yeah, I get how my interpretation isn’t quite correct, but it’s a lot closer to reality than yours.

        • reason

          It should be ‘the common understanding’ of our citizens that wayne mapp is a fog horn for dis-information ……. http://norightturn.blogspot.co.nz/search?q=Mapp%2Bwar ,

          …. especially so in the march to illegal wars https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5FaMbnINwc

          The present national Govt, who often shoulder tap Wayne for his grubby reliability have us engaged in economic war …….. on behalf and on the side of Fascists …. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72o9NWiEon4

          …. we have to take these things and his history into consideration to see the basis for much of Waynes legal opinions …..

  2. One Anonymous Bloke 2

    Nothing a decent flood can’t fix?

    Hope so, because what chance this fraud and theft will ever be prosecuted?

    • stunned mullet 2.1

      I can’t fathom why those responsible wouldn’t be served with trespass notices and charged for any damage caused.

      if not what’s to stop similar encroaching on other public land ?

      • Paul 2.1.1

        Vested interests?

      • One Anonymous Bloke 2.1.2

        I can fathom it. That’s what happens when you cancel elections and defund the watchdogs.

        It’s a perfect example of everything the National Party represents.

      • Graeme 2.1.3

        LINZ’s response would depend on how the boundary between the private land and river was defined. It may not have been a straight, pegged, surveyed line, but rather the top of a terrace back when the land was originally surveyed, which erroded away or is now 100m from the river, so it can get a bit fluid and go both ways. You can also get situations where the surveyed boundary from late 1800s can be straight but bear no relationship to the terrain or historic occupation.

        Combine that with a perception of “riparian rights” and river banks are seen as part of the property. A bit like the “long acre” on roadsides.

        The traditional farming approach has been to fence TO a natural boundary like a river rather than along it because it was easier and more stock proof. With greater productivity demands now that’s being shown to be poor environmental practice and rivers are getting fenced properly. However building and maintaining a stock-proof fence along a river can be a frustrating and expensive exercise because of the undulating terrain and poor ground due to it’s alluvial origin. Often they are having to do quite extensive earthworks to get a fence that’s safe from the river and going to keep the stock in the paddock. The photo in the article, and reference to a “road” show what in required.

        • weka

          One solution to that would be to have very wide, planted riparian zones along all rivers. This would protect the river, decrease erosion, increase biodiversity and make fencing safer. They could also be be public access. If the stock is no longer going to have access to the water (which is a separate issue in terms of animal welfare), then fences don’t need to be near the edge. Wins all round.

          There is a theory that braided rivers in NZ aren’t that natural but are a consequence of deforestation. If you put forests back along the rivers, they stop wandering.

          • Poission

            Rivers erode in the Southern hemisphere on the left side and in the N/H on the right (Baers Law) Eg Einstein A


            Meandering on a rotating planet is an expectation.

            • weka

              Meandering further when the trees are cut down. Interesting link, is that still considered true?

            • Draco T Bastard

              Yes, but a river bounded by trees will meander less as the tress will prevent the land from being washed away to a large extent.

              • bwaghorn

                my bit of anicdata is that every time i’ve been involved with a river where one side is fenced and the other not, the unfenced cockie loses the most , unfortunately the unfenced cockie is usually of the thick as a short plank type how can’t grasp that.

          • Graeme

            The big moves in braided rivers (say the Waimak going from Elsemere to it’s current outfall) occur at times of extreme flood events when the gravels erroded from the Alps drop out of the flow as the river’s velocity reduces across the plains. This builds the river bed up above the surrounding plain and the river finds the lowest and most direct route downhill. But the river isn’t really water in this state, more like very wet concrete with really big rock in it, so about all that will contain it is even bigger rocks. Vegetation, even mature forest doesn’t stand a chance.

            In normal flow meandering it’s the deposition of material in slow areas at the head of pools that drive the meander downstream. This time it’s a slow gradual eating away of the bank and again even mature forest is unable to contain the power of the river.

            River control works attempt to straighten rivers and remove these slow zones so that gravels move through and not build up. Vegetation is removed so it doesn’t trap sediment and slow the flow. Quite an un-natural environment.

            The battle between pasture and river bed is an ongoing one, look down most river banks and you’ll see the remains of old fences that have been taken out by floods, often several on the one terrace. Sometimes the land occupier will be a bit more circumspect and move the fence back, other times they’ll seize the opportunity. How they’ll react to loosing a couple of million dollars worth of dairy pasture, stock and irrigator is to be seen.

            • weka

              If forest doesn’t slow erosion in that system, why is the Plains not all river bed? It’s had a long geological time to spread out across the whole plain. Or are you saying that the river will always shift from side to side, but within certain parameters and not widen? Would you say that is the same as pre-farming?

              Are the West Coast rivers the same dynamic?

              I’m also curious as to how we would know. Do we have any forested river beds left on the east coast of the SI? I’m more familiar with the lower SI, and all those big rivers coming out of the Alps have had stock on the flats since the 1800s. Certainly south of Waitaki and Haast on the west side (not sure about lower Fiordland). When you go into densely forested river systems though, there does appear to be less erosion. Are you saying that the dynamics are different? (e.g. water flow, drop etc).

              • Graeme

                The erosion in “normal” flows is just around the edges of the river so on a biological timescale becomes indistinct, but it gave the pre-European vegetation on the South island’s aluvial plains a mosaic character. At extreme flood flows, “I’m coming through” and they will again, given a flow greater than the engineering can handle.

                I don’t think there’s any examples of the east coast mosaic forest left, it’s all gone. Might be a couple of pockets of the larger podocarps like Riccarton Bush but that’s all. I wish there was because the diversity would be amazing.

                The West Coast and mountain rivers are the same, but the aluvial plains are contained within a glacial channel and more confined, but they still get around. The Dart and Rees are pretty mobile, especially the lower Rees which could easily take a hunk out of Glenorchy.

                An accessible example of a lowland meandering river in the Waiau between Te Anau and Manapouri, this shows all the phases of meander progression and regeneration through mature forest. With the eastern side being predominately cleared of beech, and no seed source, there’s a difference in vegetation, with the eastern side appearing more eroded, but the erosion is occurring on both sides with regeneration much better on the western side. Fiordland rivers do it in spades but with very rapid regeneration.

                • weka

                  “The erosion in “normal” flows is just around the edges of the river so on a biological timescale becomes indistinct, but it gave the pre-European vegetation on the South island’s aluvial plains a mosaic character. At extreme flood flows, “I’m coming through” and they will again, given a flow greater than the engineering can handle.”

                  I’ve seen extreme floods in native bush and yes it can take out chunks of forest but in general the forest contains and slows the flood and then the new ground is regrown rapidly. That’s quite different than what happens on those east coast rivers, right? (although the pre-European landscape not not unaltered either).

                  What’s mosaic forest?

                  The Dart and Rees would both have had farming on the flat for a long time I think.

                  “An accessible example of a lowland meandering river in the Waiau between Te Anau and Manapouri, this shows all the phases of meander progression and regeneration through mature forest. With the eastern side being predominately cleared of beech, and no seed source, there’s a difference in vegetation, with the eastern side appearing more eroded, but the erosion is occurring on both sides with regeneration much better on the western side.”

                  It’s not the same kind of flooding there though (as compared to a river that is being fed by a steep watershed). And doesn’t the difference between the east and west sides support the idea that reforesting rivers would slow erosion (normal flow and extreme floods)?

                  • weka

                    Still trying to think of rivers that didn’t have farming on them. Maybe west of the Waiau? Waitutu?

                    • Graeme

                      On the Coast, Arawata and Cascade would be pretty close to how they were in Moa days, won’t be the same as there would have been a distortion with vigorous undergrowth post Moa and another the other way post European with deer and cattle. Dart, Rees and Eglinton have had little clearance, or what clearance there has been is now regenerating well. The tussock / grass flats and scrub margins are the natural vegetation progression to forest from the dynamic action of the river.

                      Mosaic is a really divese patchwork of forest, shrubland, wetland and grassland, in Canterbury it would have been a function of the effects of the rivers (major and minor) moving around and varying soil conditions and moisture. The Canterbury Plains weren’t solid forest.

    • Draco T Bastard 2.2

      Environment Canterbury (ECan) research found that nearly 12,000 hectares of Canterbury’s river margins had been taken over by intensive farming between 1990 and 2012.

      That’s a lot of land being stolen from us.

      • Graeme 2.2.1

        The language in the article is a little imprecise around whether it’s all LINZ administered marginal strip, some definitely is, or land in title that wasn’t used for dryland farming because it was too poor or the river went through it every 20 years making it uneconomic. That equation changes a bit with intensity.

        The illustrations could have been better too, before and after would have been right there in Google Earth, and local authority online GIS should show property boundaries quite accurately. A bit more precision would have removed any perception of a beatup, but then the media wouldn’t be able to turn it into a binary he said / they said conflict…..

  3. AsleepWhileWalking 3

    UK supermarkets rationing food


    A box of twelve iceburg lettuces has been offered on Gumtree for 50 Euros, and there is a *limit* of three lettuces each which I find hard to believe given that my family find it hard to get through one a week. It’s not like there is a whole heap of nutrition in them anyway.

    This is why everyone needs to make an effort at resilience even if it’s just a couple of plants, it’s a start.

    • weka 3.1

      I noticed that, and agree about local resilience. Then I realised that they’re talking about lettuces and courgettes, neither of which are reasonable to expect to grow in a UK climate in the middle of winter (well, maybe lettuces in some places). Time we started eating seasonally again, both to mitigate CC and to create resiliency.

      Lettuce is a carrier for the dressing and other vege 😉

  4. We signed a Treaty over 100 years ago.

    This is a Treaty – not some minor piece of legislation concerning dog licenses to be tinkered with .

    Which seemed all well and good up until post 1984 … and very conveniently needing ‘ adjusting ‘ when neo liberalism under Roger Douglas had been introduced… that is, until Geoffrey Palmer and Richard Prebble saw that it had aspects that stood in their way of the privatization of State owned assets.

    It was then and then only that suddenly the Treaty was deemed strangely defective in some critical aspects all of a sudden …

    How far do we change the goal posts when things don’t suit us?

    And, … equally as peculiar … funny how until the mid 1980’s the Treaty was quite acceptable… relatively… but it took the ‘ infinite wisdom ‘ and counsel of Geoffrey Palmer and Richard Prebble to not only ‘ tailor’ it to suit more ‘ modern ‘ tastes… thus implying those more than 100 years ago were simplistic and quite ignorant of the legal process…

    But go ahead… feel free to sidle up to both Palmer and Prebble if you wish.

    So called politicians form both the ‘Left’ and the ‘Right’ .

    I think it would be far more honest to say they were both neo liberal politicians and did what suited them best.

    And stop with the charade that covers and excuses and supports someone just because they happen to claim they are ‘ Left when they are clearly not.

    [I”m having trouble following your argument tbh, but in any case I think given the what the post is actually about these comments are derailments. You can keep talking on OM but if you want to comment on the Waitangi Day 2017 post, please read the post and respond to that – weka]

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • Draco T Bastard 4.1

      It was then and then only that suddenly the Treaty was deemed strangely defective in some critical aspects all of a sudden …

      Or, to be more precise, it had been mostly ignored by the government until then.

      And, yes, we can expect Te Tiriti to have some problems with it. We’re all human – not omniscient gods. The measure of our stature is how we deal with and resolve those issues. The RWNJ way is to write them out of existence as if they never were so that they can carry on destroying life without restraint.

  5. chris73 5


    “WASHINGTON (Reuters) – President Donald Trump signed an order on Monday that will seek to dramatically pare back federal regulations by requiring agencies to cut two existing regulations for every new rule introduced.”

    Something for NZ to consider…

    • Incognito 5.1

      Double or nothing; now he is trying to run the US of A as a casino. I suspect he doesn’t untie his shoelaces when he takes off his shoes; he either uses scissors or throws away the shoes, knots and all, yelling “you’re fired!”.

  6. mpledger 6

    Sean Spicer getting hammered by Melissa McCarthy on Saturday Night Live –

    “SNL – White House Press Briefing with Press Secretary Sean Spicer ”

  7. Dot 7

    For those of us who have been supporting change for a better Aotearoa
    for a long time, we know that Willie Jackson has good credentials to be part of the Labour Team.
    I remember when he was a member in the past and I welcome him back .

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

  8. weka 8

    Crikey, TOP aren’t holding pack,

    Without the media providing the stage, there simply wasn’t the opportunity to steal the limelight and send all the wrong messages about this important and historic powhiri from the original hosts of the event that saw our country’s founding document born.

    Cringingly, there was one unsurprising exception. At first I thought it was Destiny Church march closing in on the marae gates, but then like a scene from Men in Black, and in front of his clutch of dark-suited, sunglassed MPs swaggering in to create his own stage between the Press cameras and the marae gate, Winston Peters materialised. On cue Mr Peters set about manufacturing a “scene”, an “event” to feed the story-starved scribes.


    • garibaldi 8.1

      +1 to TOP. I think TOP are a worthy addition to the political scene, even more so if Winston gets exposed for what he really is, and always has been since his early days (Auck. Uni. circa 1970).

      • weka 8.1.1

        I’m all for critiquing the old bastard too. Not sure if the way that TOP are doing this will serve TOP though. It’s not how politics are usually done in NZ, so will be interesting to see if it works.

  9. weka 9

    Linda Tirado on poverty and IQ (burns),

    “Oh DUDE. You picked the wrong motherfucking person to step to calling the poor stupid. Let’s talk IQ and income because fuck it, we’re here!”


  10. greywarshark 10

    From Transportblog in feed on right of blog.
    About Auckland rail-to-be.

    The largest component of the City Rail Link (CRL) project – the construction of the tunnels and new stations – took a major step forward today with the release of its first tender documents to the industry.

    The project is picking up speed with Expressions of Interest sought only a fortnight ago for the design, procurement, installation and commissioning of all tunnel track work and rail systems between Britomart Station and the Western Line at Mt Eden.

    How can enough information and calculations be done in a fortnight, to be able to put in a viable tender? Would someone explain how this is reasonable? And is it done this way so that only the big boys who have been working on it for two years can adequately put themselves on the line in two weeks

    • Sacha 10.1

      An EOI is not a tender, just putting your hand up to be considered. There are not that many suitably-qualified construction companies for this sort of work.

    • Ad 10.2

      Design has been public for a while.

      Bidding consortia are well advanced.

  11. joe90 11

    Keeping track of WTF since 20/1/17.


  12. joe90 12


    Cape Breton wind turbine snaps in half https://t.co/5O9fwSlaAG pic.twitter.com/D2F1zkJVoW— CBC News (@CBCNews) January 6, 2017

    Devastating wind spill. Hats off to all those volunteers scrubbing breezes off birds. Remember to boil your water. https://t.co/pTGVL9HKqn— Scott Vrooman (@mescottvrooman) January 6, 2017

  13. Tony Veitch (not the partner-bashing 3rd rate broadcaster 13

    Exclusive report:

    An abridged transcript of Bill English’s conversation with Donald Trump – in the interests of brevity, Bill’s mono-syllabic replies (such as ‘Yes Sir, No Sir . . .) have been omitted.

    Bill: Mr Trump. sir, let me say congratulations from all the people of New Zealand on your stunning victory.

    Donald: Ah yes, Nu Zeeland, little country, somewhere down there. I don’t have any business interests there.

    Bill: I’m sure we can do something to change that, Mr. President sir. But let me say how supportive we are of your efforts to make America great and safe again.

    Donald: Yes, I am right, I’m always right. Only losers oppose me. You don’t have any of them Muslims down in Nu Zeeland?

    Bill: Only a few Mr. President, but we don’t take very many. I know everyone doesn’t like your policy of a Muslim ban, but we understand, Mr. President. [very small voice] We don’t quite agree with you.

    Donald: What’s that, bad line. I’m right, and they’re all wrong. Unbelievable what that judge did to my Executive order. I’ll fight it. I’m not gonna have a judge telling me what to do! If something goes wrong, don’t blame me!

    Bill: Yes, Mr. President. But sir, I’d really like to visit you in the White House sometime this year, if you could possibly spare a few minutes.

    Donald. Sure Bruce, sure. Just arrange it with Bannon., will ya.

    Bill: It’s Bill, Mr. President.

    Donald: Well, Bill, let me tell you what I’m gonna do to the Mexicans and the Iranians . . .

  14. Paul 14

    Excellent article by Chris Trotter

    Conflicting Priorities: Has Poto Williams just cost Labour the 2017 Election?

    POTO WILLIAMS’ very public criticism of Willie Jackson’s return to Labour has done huge damage to her party’s re-election chances. At a stroke, her ill-disciplined and (presumably) unsanctioned outburst has undermined the positive perceptions created by the joint Labour/Green state-of-the-nation event of 29 January. All of those “good vibrations” (to quote TV3’s Patrick Gower) have been drowned out by the high-pitched screeching of identity politics. Too wrapped up in their quest for a gender-balanced caucus to recognise the strategic importance of Andrew Little’s eleventh-hour recruitment of Jackson, Williams and her supporters have cost Labour tens-of-thousands of urban Maori (and Pakeha!) votes.

    Little’s own quest: to reconstitute Labour’s “broad church”; is clearly considered secondary to the Labour Women’s Council’s determination to achieve a gender-balanced caucus in 2017 – as mandated by the Party’s recently revised constitution.

    The recent recruitment of Greg O’Connor to contest the critically important Ohariu electorate has ruffled more than a few progressive feathers. (The Left deems the former policeman to be a rock-ribbed social conservative.) With the surprise return of Jackson to Labour (on the promise of a favourable position on the Party List) these already fragile feathers have started flying in all directions.

    Predictably, it is Jackson’s on-air grilling of “Amy” during the so-called “Roast Busters” scandal of 2013 that is being used to discredit his candidacy. That Jackson, along with his co-host John Tamihere, were merely giving voice to the doubts and reservations of a great many of their listeners (as talkback hosts are wont to do) has never been accepted by their critics. In the binary world of Identity Politics there is only space for rape-culture Devils and victimised Angels. “Devil’s Advocates” need not apply.

    That there were many people living in South and West Auckland (and across New Zealand) who considered “Willie & JT” to also be victims of the Roast Busters scandal does not appear to have crossed the minds of their detractors. That these same people may have interpreted the fate of their talkback champions as proof of how little the Left has to offer voters like themselves either did not occur to the avenging angels of Identity Politics, or, if it did, was considered a price worth paying.

    For Identity Politicians the psephological consequences of such moral crusading are matters of supreme unimportance. According to one recent analysis: “The correlation between voting National in 2014 and being male was 0.35, which was significant. This was mirrored on the centre-left: the correlation between voting Labour in 2014 and being female was 0.31.” Never mind. That National is well on the way to becoming the blokes’ party matters much less than ensuring a fifty/fifty split between men and women in Labour’s caucus. The question of whether or not guaranteeing gender parity should be accorded a higher priority than winning the election itself is studiously avoided.

  15. emergency mike 15

    Am I in auto-moderation?

    [r0b: not intentionally. Sometimes the collective algorithms seem to pick on certain users for a while, for no reason that I can see. Sorry!]

  16. Gabby 16

    God knows what Trotsker thinks the Left should be offering voters like themselves. Permission to stab the missus if she plays around? Poff poff.

  17. joe90 17

    Bernie Sanders:

    This guy is a fraud

  18. Paul 18

    Do some people on the Standard want to change the government?
    Martin Bradbury suggests not.
    I tend to agree with him on some points.


    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • weka 18.1

      Yeah, but Martyn doesn’t understand how The Standard works. He’s also been slinging mud left, right and centre, so to speak, so he’s hardly one to talk about lefties being better behaved in an election year.

      • Paul 18.1.1

        I do not believe this is the best way to get a change of government.
        Ill disciplined by Williams if Little not consulted.
        3 more years of National is a big price to pay.

        • weka

          Little has said he talked to Williams about Jackson prior to the Jackson announcement (not sure when). Maybe you should be asking him what happened.

          Telling people on The Standard to not express opinions about Jackson or not have conversations about him, given how controversial he is, sorry, but I can’t see how that would help the left.

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