Open Mike 06/10/2013

104 comments on “Open Mike 06/10/2013 ”

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1. Jenny 1

   6 October 2013 at 9:14 am

   “The Green Party launches clean energy proposals”

   The proposal involves three main changes in statute for the Electricity Authority:

   An amended objective: “to promote greater use of renewable energy including from distributed generation sources”,
   An amended function: “to establish and administer a fair regime for small scale renewable distributed electricity generation power purchase agreements” and
   An entirely new section 43 in the Electricity Industry Act detailing how this will be achieved. Including 10 year power purchase agreements and a price set by the Electricity Authority.

   Gareth Hughes Saturday, 05 Oct 2013

   Good on Gareth Hughes.

   The fight against climate change will be the defining struggle of this age.

   It is great to see that the Green Party is talking about practical actions that, (hopefully) will turn us away from fossil fuels, to renewable energy use.

   Distributed small scale electricity generation will be part of the mix.

   But Gareth has gone even further, attacking the big fossil fuel suppliers at their source, and the government, who are conspiring with Solid Energy and the banks, to keep us hooked on fossil fuels for the foreseeable future, with a huge taxpayer subsidy for our country’s biggest coal company.

   “The National Government need to take responsibility for their mismanagement of Solid Energy and cut their losses,” said Mr Hughes.

   “The banks that made risky loans to Solid Energy need to bear the cost of their mistakes.

   “Coal is not going to be the fuel of our future if we are to stabilise our climate.

   “New Zealanders and Solid Energy workers need a just transition into more sustainable jobs – jobs that don’t fry the planet.

   Gareth Hughes ..

   With these above statements Gareth and the Greens are well on the way to setting up climate change as a major defining election issue for the Greens, sharply differentiating themselves from both Labour and National, who both as well as having broad agreement on other issues of climate change, both support the bailout of Solid Energy, reinforceng and gauranteeing our iron bound addiction to fossil fuels at a time when we should be taking every opportunity to loosen its grip.
   • Zorr 1.1

     6 October 2013 at 9:33 am

     Jenny – you were proven yesterday to be a liar regarding Labour’s position and yet you still repeat the same hyperbole ad nauseum today?

     One rule I work with is “Never trust an extremist” because they are never honest. Ever. No matter how “correct” the facts behind your argument may be (such as climate change being a real man made thing that’s going to impact over the next 100 years) you are completely misrepresenting the political situation in NZ in order to meet your other preconceptions.
     • Jenny 1.1.1

       6 October 2013 at 10:15 am

       OK Zorr. Giving you the benefit of the doubt.What in your opinion is the Labour Party position on the multimillion dollar bailout of Solid Energy?

       Does Labour support the Bailout?

       Does Labour oppose the Bailout?
       • Colonial Viper 1.1.1.1

         6 October 2013 at 11:06 am

         IMO Labour will likely support Solid Energy’s continued existence, and retention as a full SOE. Not only are there many NZ jobs at stake, but also extensive technical and engineering knowledge plus a vital strategic energy source for the nation.

         What’s your proposed alternative Jenny?
         • Jenny 1.1.1.1.1

           6 October 2013 at 2:59 pm

           What’s your proposed alternative Jenny?

           Colonial Viper

           I am glad you asked CV. Thank you.

           I have been trying to popularise for some, time now the scandal that is Rauauru Ma Raki.

           1033 permanent jobs “blown away” in the renewable sector. What is remarkable about this project is that it is but a short commute from Huntly where many coal miners are losing their jobs.

           “Heartbreak for Huntly East miners”

           All that is needed to restart this project and give all these laid off workers good jobs according to Wind Energy CEO Eric Pyle is the “right policy settings”, which I imagine would cost little in comparison to the current huge $100 million plus, (and more to come), bail out of Solid Energy.

           The Nacts may cry crocodile tears about jobs being lost. But we know they don’t care for working people. The Bailout of Solid Energy is a blatant a case of Corporate Welfare as you can get. Nothing else. As Gareth Hughes says the government should “cut their losses”. What we should be asking CV is why we are covering the losses of the foreign owned Aussie banks?
           • Colonial Viper 1.1.1.1.1.1

             6 October 2013 at 5:54 pm

             I am glad you asked CV. Thank you.

             I have been trying to popularise for some, time now the scandal that is Rauauru Ma Raki.

             1033 permanent jobs “blown away” in the renewable sector.

             None of these jobs exist. They were future “potential jobs”. You are proposing getting rid of higher paid jobs for jobs which do not exist yet, would take several years to reach a full payroll of staff, and likely pay much less than mining jobs.

             As Gareth Hughes says the government should “cut their losses”. What we should be asking CV is why we are covering the losses of the foreign owned Aussie banks?

             Who knows. Probably so they don’t take possession of the company and firesale it.

             Bottom line is that your religious crusade is all about you Jenny, and very little else.
       • lprent 1.1.1.2

         6 October 2013 at 12:20 pm

         Jenny, why don’t you go to the effort of reading their press releases. Or even to just ask them? Find the shadow minister..

         Whining here about something that you can almost certainly just look up simply makes you look lazy
         • Zorr 1.1.1.2.1

           6 October 2013 at 2:15 pm

           lprent – in my mind it is not laziness on her part but rather an admission that she is what I stated she is, an extremist. She is looking for evidence that supports her own initial conclusions and ignoring anything else that may *potentially* undermine that.

           Jenny – I don’t really know what Labour’s position on the matter of Solid Energy is and, at the moment, I only really have the extra energy to continue being pissed off at National. I come to The Standard because the level of intelligent coverage here outstrips all other available sources but I keep seeing your screeds of outraged bullshit popping up everywhere and it rankles.

           It’s difficult to argue with you on the “climate change is bad and we should be doing something about it” because I agree, climate change *is* bad and we *should* do something about it. When it comes to communicate about that *something* though you manage to go jump in to the deep end and shout a giant “fuck you” to anyone who isn’t willing to dive right in next to you. By doing so you alienate anyone who doesn’t share your personal belief and this is no way to build broad support for your position.

           Hence why I felt the need this morning to call you on your extremist bullshit.

           In my opinion, feel free to continue to post your extremist rhetoric here. It reminds me why I chose to escape association with similar people and why I will continue to.
           • lprent 1.1.1.2.1.1

             6 October 2013 at 4:34 pm

             …in my mind it is not laziness on her part but rather an admission that she is what I stated she is, an extremist.

             I’d agree. But really she could be an extremist that looked things up rather her current habit of simply making things up. It has gotten to the point that whenever I read her comments then I treat it exactly like I would for some poor troll coming from Whaleoil or No Minister… I assume it is wrong or quoted completely out of context.

             Her habit of usually not leaving links to those she is accusing reinforces that. It implies that she hasn’t used search either on this site or on google to actually find out anything about what she is talking about. As importantly it makes it harder for people to find out if she is sprouting crap or not.

             Basically she acts like a modern-day Joseph Goebbels who in Nazi Germany had the role of making inflammatory and inaccurate memes as minister of propaganda. He also had the role of destroying the ability of people to check the veracity of those memes by destroying books that contradicted those memes published as books, pamphlets, speeches, etc…

             There are some quite strong extremists (in my view) on this site. But you have to give them credibility because they usually leave links and reasoned argument. They also respond to people disagreeing with them rather than Jenny’s current passion for flying into boring rants and lying about what they said…
   • Pascal's bookie 1.2

     6 October 2013 at 9:39 am

     I like Gareth, and I vote Green, but he is a bit off about what this deal does. the banks won’t be too happy about this at all.

     The shares they are getting do not pay dividends, and can only be sold back to the crown at the price they paid for them, when and if the crown ever wants to buy them.

     Basically SE has had a lot of debt to the banks written off, 350M has been paid off by the crown, and the rest of the debt will be recovered if and when the crown buys back those shares.

     The alternative is winding the company up. That doesn’t mean the mines close. It means a receiver tries to get as much value as possible out of SE’s assets, (that would be the mines and licenses to mine), as they can in order to pay back as much of the debt as they can.

     In other words, the mines would be sold.
   • bad12 1.3

     6 October 2013 at 9:54 am

     Yes, great to see the moves by the Green Party on Solar Power, what such Regulation and Legislation will allow anyone with a mind to to become a power supplier the legal framework which will allow them to do so and presumably be able to sell the power generated at much the same rates as the present Electricity Cartel does,

     From what the Green Party are saying it seems likely that those wishing to install solar power arrays will be able to, instead of having to also install very expensive battery systems, feed the power they generate straight into the retail system making such a system far more streamlined than what has presently been achieved,

     In a Green future i can well see a large industry being built up around household solar arrays where the home-owner could add solar panels to their own system as they have spare funds to do so and where eventually households doing so would be supplying much of the countries daytime electricity needs,

     It doesn’t take much to imagine the average workers solar paneling generating power by day into the grid while they are busy at work and thus creating enough credit for those doing so to have basically the free use of electricity while they are at home via the credits earned,

     What is needed is work on a standardized design of such solar power systems with work being put into the efficacy of producing the whole systems here in New Zealand, which along with the installation and maintanence of will create clean green sustainable employment…
     • Colonial Viper 1.3.1

       6 October 2013 at 10:10 am

       Solar thermal is still the best use of sun power at this stage. I do hope that more focus is placed on that technology before long.
       • bad12 1.3.1.1

         6 October 2013 at 10:29 am

         Yeah you may have a point, but, just for arguments sake, say an investment in Solar Thermal of a billion dollars generates X amount of power, this is owned either by Government or private companies, (with the threat of privatization if Government owned), and such electricity is then sold to the consumer at a profit,

         Consider then IF the same billion dollars spent on household solar generation arrays on the roof of average homes produced the same X of power which is then sold by the householder via a binding agreement at a fair set price to the retailer, given that there is room on the average houses roof for one hell of an array of solar paneling it would not be inconceivable that the average house could generate and sell enough electricity during the day to make a households electricity usage all up basically free,

         i am tho fascinated by the thought of having some very big magnifying glasses able to track around with the sun being able to direct beans of light to ‘a boiler’, thus creating steam and thus creating usable energy in a number of forms…
         • bad12 1.3.1.1.1

           6 October 2013 at 10:41 am

           Lolz, BeaMs of light, only i know about the magic ‘beans of light’ and i aint telling you all…
         • Colonial Viper 1.3.1.1.2

           6 October 2013 at 10:42 am

           I reckon household solar thermal needs to be considered. For most house holds a power saving of 25%-40% would be very realistic.
           • bad12 1.3.1.1.2.1

             6 October 2013 at 10:48 am

             Ah here i was thinking you was thinking on large scale solar thermal, your thinking of solar heating of the hot water needs of a house only???…
             • Colonial Viper …

               6 October 2013 at 10:59 am

               I wouldn’t preclude larger scale thermal plants, but I think that distributed installations for households, motels, hotels, schools, hospitals etc. would be (and in fact are) very workable.

               For a typical household, a power bill saving of $50-$60 month would be quite significant.
               • miravox …

                 6 October 2013 at 6:30 pm

                 Solar energy is so mainstream now..

                 http://www.ikea.com/gb/en/store/thurrock/solar_panels
             • Draco T Bastard …

               6 October 2013 at 2:37 pm

               Passive solar heating of houses is also possible reducing the need for heaters in winter.
   • Populuxe1 1.4

     6 October 2013 at 5:36 pm

     And as expected very little costing information or any indication of how that energy is to be generated.
     • Colonial Viper 1.4.1

       6 October 2013 at 6:44 pm

       Hydro, sun, wind; the costs are very well understood as these are all established energy technologies in commercial use in NZ.
2. Jenny 2

   6 October 2013 at 9:27 am

   Yesterday I praised Gareth Hughes and the Green Party for coming out and and strongly condemning the bailout of Solid Energy.

   I asked why, almost a week later, there had been no post on The Standard by any author about the criminal and immoral Bailout of Solid Energy. karol kindly took the time to reply saying that, they were working on it.

   “An author has been working on a draft of a solid energy post.”

   karol 5 October2013 at 9.04 am
   

   I also asked yesterday why Labour had not commented on the bail out.

   Qot pointed out to me something that I had missed, that Clayton Cosgrove for the Labour Party had actually come out in support of the bailout. With a cryptic comment that “the deal announced on Tuesday was too little too late.”

   So I can understand why the mysterious Standard poster is haveing trouble trying to finish their agonised philosophical wrestling over their “draft Solid Energy post”, before most likely, finally deciding to leave it in the too hard basket.

   [lprent: good thing that karol saw it before me. I’d have simply banned you for a week for trying to tell us how we should be running the site. ]
   • Te Reo Putake 2.1

     6 October 2013 at 9:36 am

     Am I the only reader wondering how much carbon burning martyrs contribute to the atmosphere?
     • Pascal's bookie 2.1.1

       6 October 2013 at 9:42 am

       I dunno. But if you could harness energy from Jenny’s switching back and forth about who is selling out the planet, the problem could well be solved.
     • Colonial Viper 2.1.2

       6 October 2013 at 9:44 am

       Almost certainly less than 15kg of carbon released, depending on how it is done. Sadly, I’ve just seen a notice that the man who self immolated in the US National Mall in Washington DC has died. Another milestone in the match of the plutocrats.
   • mickysavage 2.2

     6 October 2013 at 9:59 am

     Jenny totally untrue.

     The solid energy post is a post that I am working on but I need to understand the intricacies of the recent announcements and get these right before I finish it.

     You should also understand that the Standard bloggers are a disparate diffuse group of people who have things like jobs and lives. Posts and contributions are a totally voluntary thing. For me I am also in the middle of a local body election campaign so posts will be made

     And your original comment was that Labour has stayed silent on the issue and as shown by QoT you are totally incorrect.
     • Jenny 2.2.1

       6 October 2013 at 10:25 am

       And your original comment was that Labour has stayed silent on the issue and as shown by QoT you are totally incorrect.

       mickysavage

       But you must admit mj that there is some confusion around where Labour sit on this issue, as evidenced by Zorr at at 9:33 am.

       Hopefully you will be able to clear this up for us.

       [lprent: Get off your lazy bigoted and obviously stupid arse and look it up. FFS it isn’t hard – read the press releases, they stream in the Feeds every day.

       If you *ever* use this type of line again on either Labour, the Greens or even National without doing some research yourself.

       To encourage you in this endeavour, I will take a page out of your book and assume you are guilty unless it is clear in the first paragraph that you have searched. And I will impose a 12 week ban if you do not show evidence of having looked for what you are asking for from political parties before accusing them. Everyone is welcome to point out what she missed… ]
       • Colonial Viper 2.2.1.1

         6 October 2013 at 10:39 am

         You must admit that you jump straight to conclusions, making declarative statements as fact, when they are not.
       • bad12 2.2.1.2

         6 October 2013 at 11:26 am

         The question tho Jenny, is upon seeing the lack of Post’s by the Standards authors why did you not put in a ‘Guest Post’ if you were so concerned,

         Yesterday’s little effort from you seemed to contain an attack upon the author’s for not having posted on your particular concern of the moment…
     • McFlock 2.2.2

       6 October 2013 at 4:42 pm

       […] I need to understand the intricacies of the recent announcements and get these right before I finish it.

       Your failure to just automatically make shit up and leap to extreme conclusions just shows you don’t really care about climate change 😉
   • bad12 2.3

     6 October 2013 at 10:11 am

     So Jenny, the Labour Party did comment on the Solid Energy bailout, instead of posting even more bullshit here, an ”i was wrong with my assertion yesterday” would have been sufficient,

     Perhaps you are a masochist and feel that when you do, after what seems huge effort on your part, get a spanking, you spend your time in purgatory nurturing along your view of having been ‘the victim’…
     • The Al1en 2.3.1

       6 October 2013 at 10:23 am

       Posted yesterday… ” *Yes I did miss this. But that is not the same as being a “fucking liar” ”

       I think Jenny is passionate about her cause and far less rude, abrasive, insulting and retarded as some commenters are in stating their positions.

       I don’t see what she posts as a problem. Like anything (or anyone’s opinions) it can be ignored or dismissed without rancour or resorting to obscenities that make point scoring a hollow gesture.
       • QoT 2.3.1.1

         6 October 2013 at 3:27 pm

         I think you’re being incredibly charitable towards Jenny. She has had opportunity after opportunity to check her shit.

         When she hated the Greens, it was daily postings on how “the Greens have been silent!!!!” and when she had multiple blog posts and press releases pointed out to her, her defence was “oh, well it’s not on the front page of their website”.

         Now she hates Labour, so it’s daily postings on how “Labour have been silent!!!!!” and when multiple media statements are again pointed out to her, her defence is “well that’s not clear enough for me.”

         The only reasonable conclusion for anyone to draw after this amount of time and a complete refusal to back up her statements is that Jenny is – and I’m so not ashamed to “resort to obscenties” – a fucking liar.
         • lprent 2.3.1.1.1

           6 October 2013 at 4:12 pm

           The only reasonable conclusion for anyone to draw after this amount of time and a complete refusal to back up her statements is that Jenny is – and I’m so not ashamed to “resort to obscenties” – a fucking liar.

           Amen to that. She said this:-

           Funny that you should mention Rob Gilchrist again Lynn. I had been thinking of this despicable individual since you tried to compare him to me in a nasty piece of character assassination.

           That was an outright lie and made me kind of annoyed, especially as it was part of the kind of rethorical accusorial waffle that seems to be all that she can maintain these days.

           Sure I compared her to Gilchrist because the previous comment from Murray Olsen responding to one from Pascal’s bookie was about cops and police spies acting like her in movements. But my comment was hardly comparing her to Rob Gilchrist because I think that she is mostly just a bit of a extremist nutter. Unfortunately Rob never acted like that or he’d have never have had as much penetration into a variety of movements as he did.

           My disagreement with Pascal’s bookie was that you had to always be wary of any extremist credulous fools who couldn’t credibly explain how they get from their ideological position to actually being able to implement some of it. You don’t need to use the “cop” to think that people acting that way are dangerous to the movement and to those around them.

           This was rather signalled by my first paragraph quoting Murray

           ..you have just made one of the most stupid and cowardly statements that it’s possible for an activist to make.

           Wrong approach. Treat any activist going over the top with due caution and suspicion.

           Basically like you, I just call people I consider to be misguided, unthinking, fools, idiots or liars just that with some reasons why. This allows others to make up their own minds.

           Hell with QoT, I’ve even be known to do milder forms of it to her (and her to me – but of course i was *right* 😉 ). But I just disagree and I’m usually quite willing to explain why. It usually provokes some interesting discussion and much of the time falls into “agree to disagree”.

           But Jenny these days mostly just accuses people who disagree with her of being some kind of traitor as she asks rhetorical questions and in my case lies about what I have previously said. Not a behaviour that I’m particularly tolerant on. And it is a pity that she doesn’t seem to have enough perspective to understand that people disagreeing with her is a good thing. It is when they don’t bother then she has lost her argument and audience.
           • Rogue Trooper 2.3.1.1.1.1

             6 October 2013 at 4:20 pm

             Peace Out!
           • Murray Olsen 2.3.1.1.1.2

             6 October 2013 at 6:14 pm

             I tend to take accusations of being police or government agents personally and seriously. I was accused of being an SIS agent back in the 80s, before I understood the dynamic of much of the left and that this has been a historical tactic of the 3rd International since at least 1926. It has been suggested here, by travellerev, that I could be a government agent, basically on the grounds that I was an admin of a Facebook page aimed against John Key and banned people who couldn’t get past the WTC, the Illuminati, and cut and pastes from Alex Jones sites. There is basically no reasonable defence against it, which is why I am so careful and make sure I have a hell of a lot of evidence before I would even raise such an issue.

             For the record, Jenny has never rung any of my bells in this area. She comes across as more of an unreasoning fundamentalist who, even if she does have something worthwhile to say, says it in such a manner that she loses any potential audience pretty quickly.

             By the standards of many here, I am undoubtedly an extreme Marxist, but I do my best to address people somewhere near the level they can identify with. My being right on any particular issue is actually not that important to me. Any latent ability I have to help people think outside their comfort zones is far more important. By the nature of this blog, we are potential leaders, not followers. We have a duty to check supposedly factual material when we post it, and I feel I have a duty to treat fellow contributors with respect until they prove to my satisfaction that they deserve otherwise. We also have a duty to challenge what we consider misinformation and diversion. I think Jenny and Penny Worth both act to divert issues, mainly via the style they use.

             As always, I never claim infallibility in my politics, and not even always in my Physics, but I like to think that I can defend my positions without personal attacks. However, I am not above retaliating with a dose of passion when something is directed against me personality.

             As far as the mechanics of this blog is concerned, they are not decided by me. If I object too strongly, I can always leave. Free speech to me on this blog means you don’t charge me to post, as long as I stay within the guidelines. If I ever set up my own blog, I would probably take a similar approach to my contributors, even though I doubt I’d have to take my socks off to count them.

             PS The closest to my views are expressed by Red Rattler, although we use quite different styles of expression.
         • The Al1en 2.3.1.1.2

           6 October 2013 at 5:56 pm

           “I think you’re being incredibly charitable towards Jenny.”

           Perhaps, but in truth, no more so than to most others.
           Doesn’t mean I don’t see or feel your pain where other posters are concerned. Interestingly, just this week I’ve been guilted for not remembering commentators are real people and this isn’t just a blog, but a serious blog for the big boys and girls.
           I should harden the fu*k up and just get on with it 😆
           • Rogue Trooper 2.3.1.1.2.1

             6 October 2013 at 8:52 pm

             Yep.
           • ghostrider888 2.3.1.1.2.2

             6 October 2013 at 9:07 pm

             either love and let fly or Live and Let Die 😎
       • weka 2.3.1.2

         6 October 2013 at 3:50 pm

         “I think Jenny is passionate about her cause and far less rude, abrasive, insulting and retarded as some commenters are in stating their positions.”

         True, but most commenters are less rude than shes is. And it’s not rudeness, abrasiveness etc that is the problem with Jenny. It’s her tr0lling. Tr0lling isn’t even the right word, because I don’t think she does it intentionally. She just garners herself alot of negative attention because of how she posts and how she consequently behaves..

         “I don’t see what she posts as a problem. Like anything (or anyone’s opinions) it can be ignored or dismissed without rancour or resorting to obscenities that make point scoring a hollow gesture.”

         It’s true that I can ignore her. But why should I have to ignore the huge number of other people that stop commenting on other things in order to respond to her ‘inaccuracies’ and flamming? It’s the long threads of blah fucking blah that annoy me.
         • The Al1en 2.3.1.2.1

           6 October 2013 at 6:02 pm

           I was going to ignore my own post as the ultimate example of practice what I preach, but I couldn’t do it.

           At least I only write short posts and piss off a handful at a time. 🙂
           • greywarbler 2.3.1.2.1.1

             6 October 2013 at 8:28 pm

             The Allen
             You are exemplary and a shining example to us all. I write long posts sometimes but not always on the same subject. 😉
             • The Al1en …

               6 October 2013 at 10:12 pm

               “You are exemplary and a shining example to us all”

               :halo: 😆
               • Rogue Trooper …

                 6 October 2013 at 10:17 pm

                 A Voodoo Transistor
                 • The Al1en …

                   6 October 2013 at 10:23 pm

                   The Fuzz

                   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnEucQYf5bg
                   • Rogue Trooper …

                     6 October 2013 at 10:30 pm

                     read an online article; some chap from a reputable kiwi band is being swamped with orders for his hand-crafted fuzz boxes and effect pedals.
         • Jenny 2.3.1.2.2

           6 October 2013 at 6:33 pm

           A lot of heat. Not much light.

           Can we discuss the substantive issues now?

           Is National’s bail out of Solid Energy Corporate Welfare, which only really benefits the foreign owned Aussie banks?

           Is Gareth Hughes right in saying that the government should “cut their losses”

           Is the Solid Energy bailout a breach of the letter and intent of the Majuro Declaration to which we are a signatory?

           Would wind power projects like Rauauru Ma Raki employ as many, or more workers than the coal industry?

           Is James Hansen correct when he says, “If we can’t stop coal it is all over for climate”?

           Does the Labour Party support, or oppose the bailout of Solid Energy?

           The voting public need to know

           The stakes couldn’t be higher

           The figures are chilling

           A report commissioned by the Climate Vulnerable Forum, a partnership of 20 developing countries threatened by climate change was released to the media in September 2012. The report concluded that:

           More than 100 million people will die…

           The causes of this mega-death were listed as:

           ….five million deaths occur each year from air pollution, hunger and disease as a result of climate change and carbon-intensive economies, and that toll would likely rise to six million a year by 2030 if current patterns of fossil fuel use continue.

           More than 90 percent of those deaths will occur in developing countries….

           Reuters LONDON Sept 26, 2012

           “A combined climate-carbon crisis is estimated to claim 100 million lives between now and the end of the next decade,” the report said.

           Huffington Post

           http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/26/climate-change-deaths_n_1915365.html

           Millions of human beings will be sentenced to miserable lives and early deaths by our actions and inaction. Today.

           We have to get it right.
           • Jenny 2.3.1.2.2.1

             6 October 2013 at 7:04 pm

             Hopefully mickysavage will be able to clarify some of these issues in his post on the Bailout, when it comes out.
             • QoT …

               6 October 2013 at 8:14 pm

               Hopefully you can respect the fact that you’ve been banned.
               • jaymam …

                 7 October 2013 at 3:59 am

                 Your link says nothing of the sort. Go and read it again carefully.
                 • QoT …

                   7 October 2013 at 9:08 pm

                   You’re right. I misread it, and I apologise.
                   • McFlock …

                     7 October 2013 at 9:15 pm

                     pity though

                     edit – whoops, I spake too soon 🙂
   • karol 2.4

     6 October 2013 at 6:18 pm

     Well, I’m glad others have responded to Jenny today, because I’m in no mood for her constant attacks – made worse by being based on unreliable info/judgments.

     As one included in the authors attacked for not posting on her chosen issue, I am more than pissed off. Very tired tonight after a day’s work and a particularly busy and stressful week. And I suspect that’s the same for many TS authors.

     Jenny only needs to look to see how few new posts there have been in the last couple of days – on any topic. Under this government there are many crucial issues that need highlighting. Most of us post mostly on issues we know most about. Science and the economy are not my strengths – unless it’s about how they are represented in the MSM. It takes a fair amount of research for me to comment on such things.

     Also, the strength of this site is in the discussions. Jenny doesn’t really seem to come here to engage in discussion. She mostly spends her time here in attack mode. She most often sounds to me like she’s on a soap box: haranguing people and talking down to us, and not taking much notice of any responses to her attacks.

     Then when she breaks some basic TS rules (like not telling authors what to write) and gets banned for it, she starts complaining that her views on climate change are being censored. No matter how many times the reason for the bans are explained, and the evidence presented, she just seems to choose not to understand.

     Why should I bother to read any more of Jenny’s comments?
     • Jenny 2.4.1

       6 October 2013 at 8:07 pm

       “Sure I compared her to Gilchrist…..” lprent 6 October 2013 at 4:12pm

       “Basically she acts like a modern-day Joseph Goebbels…..” lprent 6 October 2013 at 4:34

       It is really hard to know what Lynn is trying to do here.

       Is Lynn trying to give me more notoriety than I have already, so that more people read me, is he secretly trying to help me, I am really not sure.
     • weka 2.4.2

       6 October 2013 at 8:08 pm

       I think you are exceptionally patient Karol. I’m sorry you have to put up with this shit. Despite what I said above to the Al1en, it’s ulitmately not so onerous for me to ignore Jenny or get over what she is doing because my input here is fairly uncommitted. But if I had been putting in the effort you have and had that degree of committment, I’d be spitting tacks by now.
       • Chooky 2.4.2.1

         6 October 2013 at 8:21 pm

         Jenny is a very nice girls name…all the Jennys I have ever known have been nice , sweet, charming girls….

         From wiki:
         Jennifer is a feminine given name, a Cornish form of Gwenhwyfar[1] adopted into English during the 20th century.
         It may mean “white fairy” (from Proto-Celtic *Uindo-seibrā “white phantom”). Despite the name’s similarity to the Old English words jenefer, genefer and jinifer, all of which were variants of Juniper used to describe the juniper tree,[2] there is no evidence that it comes from these.

         Other meanings of Jenny:
         An amazing, beautiful, caring, creative girl. She is the epitome of a goddess, and anyone would kill to have her. She can do anything she sets her mind to, and she’s wonderful.

         A girl who acts like a true sister. She may not be blood line relatives, but she will care for you no matter what, even when hated she will love you. She tends to fall for the wrong type, but in the end she will never give up on someone she loves. She’s socially active but naughty at times.
         • greywarbler 2.4.2.1.1

           6 October 2013 at 8:34 pm

           Wow Chooky that Cornish name is really something. But I’ve gone off Jenny after Jenny Shipley. While the name has sweet connotations too often the owner doesn’t.
         • The Al1en 2.4.2.1.2

           6 October 2013 at 10:17 pm

           All that Cornish talk, now I fancy an oggie.
           • Chooky 2.4.2.1.2.1

             6 October 2013 at 11:31 pm

             Greywarbler & the Allen…..smirk….well parents choose lovely names for their baby girls ….but they dont always turn out as expected…they could grow up to be a troll(ess) or a horrible old witch with nasty duplicitous designs and spells.

             ….yes Jenny Shipley is a Jenny I hadn’t thought of….you are very realistic greywarbler …adds a whole new complexion to the name Jenny….

             …Now Gwenhwyfar is a very romantic name …maybe a better name to write songs about or have sweet dreams upon……not too many Gwenhwyfars around (down under) to spoil the illusion….
             • greywarbler …

               7 October 2013 at 10:40 am

               Hi Chooky I had a look at name meanings. My Mum was Gwendolyn and great greats came from Cornwall so I guess that was a connection with the name. I noticed that Gwenhwyfar is the Cornish, Welsh, Celtic? form of Guinevere. Gwen means white, holy, blessed and there are St Gwens.

               There is a rich source of names in the Celtic directory. Maybe people could look there for a more personal name than following pop stars or adopting country’s names, Hello New Zealand how are you today – Austria, Australia to Zambia? A bit weird.
               • Chooky …

                 7 October 2013 at 9:18 pm

                 @greywarbler….I love Welsh names and the sound of the language …not that I understand it…Gwendolyn is a great name!
           • greywarbler 2.4.2.1.2.2

             8 October 2013 at 11:12 am

             The Allen
             I had to check on your irrelevant remark about an oggie so went to the Urban Dictionary for total irrelevance. You do learn something every day – sometimes two things!
             Mmmm Cornish pasties, and i liked that idea of savoury one end and sweet the other. How practical – a two course meal in one.
       • karol 2.4.2.2

         6 October 2013 at 8:32 pm

         Thanks, weka. Well, it’s also that there are authors here that post very knowledgeably about things like climate change (and economic issues) but Jenny still goes on about authors ignoring the topic. And it seems completely unrealistic to expect those kind of posts to be prepared every few days…. or even every week. But, anyway, as I comments before, we had a couple of very good ones on climate change last weekend.

         To many issues, too much destructive NAct actions, so much needing to be done to take a positive new direction, so little time to post on all of them.
         • Lanthanide 2.4.2.2.1

           7 October 2013 at 12:09 am

           “To many issues, too much destructive NAct actions, so much needing to be done to take a positive new direction, so little time to post on all of them.”

           It’s also the case that climate change is a global issue. There are hundreds of excellent websites from around the world dealing with climate change, the science behind it, etc. There aren’t nearly so many websites on the internet dealing with general NZ politics. Why should this site focus solely or mainly on climate change, when there are plenty of other sites that do it already?
3. phillip ure 3

   6 October 2013 at 9:28 am

   matthew hooten is getting his arse kicked all over the Q & A studio..by rod oram..on the topic of the living-wage..

   ..i am trying to write a review..but can’t stop laughing..

   ..it is a must-watch..

   .and a fracturing of a long-pushed rightwing myth to justify paying workers shit-wages..

   ..bloody brilliant..!

   ..philip ure..
   • David H 3.1

     6 October 2013 at 10:04 am

     I did love the bit where Rod Oram Said “Matthew, listen for a moment, because you are not very good at that”
     • Anne 3.1.1

       6 October 2013 at 10:25 am

       And didn’t he add something to the effect “yes Matthew we all know you’re running a campaign against the living wage”. I think Susan Wood did a wee squeal at that one.

       Hooton was trying on his old trick… taking control of the conversation and interrupting and talking over the top of his rival. Rod Oram wasn’t having it. Love to see him up against Hooton on the Monday morning RNZ political slot. Unfortunately he’s not a political commentator by profession which is a pity.
       • bad12 3.1.1.1

         6 October 2013 at 10:36 am

         Oram is always a good listen to, i missed Q@A but always have a good listen to rod when He is on RadioNZ,

         He tends to give a far fuller answer to any question of economics being discussed, usually giving the right-wing view an airing as well while pointing out why He thinks that is wrong and offering the alternatives…
         • David H 3.1.1.1.1

           6 October 2013 at 11:20 am

           It’ll be there on demand, or You tube, Bad12.
           • Curtis 3.1.1.1.1.1

             6 October 2013 at 1:32 pm

             Heres the link here

             http://tvnz.co.nz/q-and-a-news/panel-living-wage-video-5600782
             • ianmac …

               6 October 2013 at 5:45 pm

               Thanks Curtis. And others who raised the Q&A item. The Right claim huge job losses if Living Wage was begun. (Would it follow that if the Min Wage was dropped to say $5 an hour there would be wholesale increase in Employment?)
               If Firms paid a Living Wage then maybe there would be an exodus from those firms paying Min Wage and those firms would have to compete by lifting wages up from the Min to match the Living wage to hang on to their staff.
               • Draco T Bastard …

                 6 October 2013 at 6:06 pm

                 Would it follow that if the Min Wage was dropped to say $5 an hour there would be wholesale increase in Employment?

                 No but there would be a wholesale increase in poverty and the fortunes of the parasites would increase.
   • Bill 3.2

     6 October 2013 at 2:12 pm

     Shame that Hooton wasn’t picked up on two claims he made – that NZ has the highest min wage in $ terms and the fourth highest min wage to average wage ratio in the OECD.

     I’ll assume those claims are true. And so the question that needs answering is, is there any merit in having the highest min wage in absolute and comparative terms if you also have disproportionately large numbers of people only earning the min wage and employers receiving tax payers money to ‘take the edge off’ widespread and systemic poverty?
     • McFlock 3.2.1

       6 October 2013 at 4:55 pm

       Yeah, nah.

       It appears at least one of those claims isn’t true.

       Big surprise. Hooten’s a professional liar.
       • Bill 3.2.1.1

         6 October 2013 at 5:33 pm

         Well, yeah – it doesn’t surprise me that he was lying. But even his lies (accepted as accurate) could have been turned against him.

         Anyways….
         • McFlock 3.2.1.1.1

           6 October 2013 at 7:08 pm

           what’s that tactic where they come up with bullshit with such frequency that taking the time to correct anything simply gets one swamped with more bullshit, but trying to keep up simply leaves them to say “but you agreed earlier” and their bullshit unchallenged?

           Ah – the Gish Gallop sounds like it.

           Sounds like hootles tries to do that when he’s on air.
           • ianmac 3.2.1.1.1.1

             6 October 2013 at 8:58 pm

             “Gish Gallop”. That sounds about right for Mr Hooten.
             And for that matter the famous Campbell interview with John Key. Breathless Key Gallop to run over the top of any tricky questions and a dig or two at the honesty/integrity of John Campbell. If the cap fits…..
         • foreign waka 3.2.1.1.2

           6 October 2013 at 8:43 pm

           Country Minimum wage Annual Standard Hourly Percent of
           (US$)[2] workweek (US$) GDP per
            Australia A$16.37 per hour 33355 38 16.88 0.471
            Luxembourg €1,921.03 per month 29611 40 14.24 0.253
            Monaco €1,593.67 per month 25744 39 12.69 15.8%[106]
            France €1,430.22 per month 22003 35 12.09 0.534
            Belgium €1,501.82 per month 23104 38 11.69 0.503
            San Marino €8.96 per hour 22400 37.5 11.49 0.389
            New Zealand NZ$13.75 per hour 23252 40 11.18 0.555
            Ireland €1,461.85 per month 22490 39 11.09 0.428
            Netherlands €1,477.80 per month 22735 40 10.93 0.461
            United Kingdom £6.31 per hour 19896 38.2 10.02 0.472
            Canada C$9.95 to C$11.00 per hour 22766 44[40] 9.95 0.415
   • kenny 3.3

     6 October 2013 at 4:57 pm

     Sorry Phillip, have to disagree with you on this one. Rod did make some good points which any sensible, fair minded person would have to agree with but Hooton just carried on as if nothing had happened and always got the last word in – people tend to remember the last word. He just kept repeating his lines and there is no answer to that if you don’t have a killer blow up your sleeve so to speak. Hooton also ignored what the Australian CTU president had to say with regards to the minimum wage etc.

     I noticed also there was no mention of the latest Roy Morgan poll, and a dig at Cunliffe for the gaffe about the young property investor finding it harder to buy his ‘first home’.
     • karol 3.3.1

       6 October 2013 at 9:16 pm

       Though. Hooton’s continued talking made him look pretty shallow and waffley along side Oram. I don’t know how the majority of viewers would see it though.
       • North 3.3.1.1

         7 October 2013 at 8:25 am

         Saw it as you did Karol. Interesting how virtually overnight a seeming asset can turn into a liability. Thank you Matthew thank you RNZ.

         Hopefully the same effect will settle in for that emerging world leader global mover and shaker “Nooo Zeeerllind Praamm Ministirrr Jaaahn Keee”.
4. xtasy 4

   6 October 2013 at 10:26 am

   To ALL sick, disabled and with incapacity for work – on WINZ benefits: Download and read the PDF submission to be found via this link, and READ IT, please!

   Please DO take NOTE of this, which I tried to point out the other night, but it appears to have not been noticed by most, it is EXTREMELY important:

   This affects ALL sick and disabled on BENEFITS: THERE are major changes happening, yet again, and it is highly worrying stuff!!!

   http://www.nzma.org.nz/sites/all/files/sub-WorkAbilityAssessments-Providers.pdf

   MSD’s Principal Health Advisor Dr Bratt and his team seem to be preparing new ways of outsourcing Work Capability Assessments, to be done by selected professionals!

   This smells too much like the “stench” that has been attached to the involvement of Atos Healthcare as the private assessor for the Department of Work and Pensions (DWP) in the UK.
   I have not heard or read anything about MSD’s plans in this direction yet, but it sounds extremely worrying, hence the serious concerns also, the New Zealand Medical Association (NZMA) expresses.

   Something is being prepared to involve people to make assessments for WINZ, who are not even proper medical experts.

   I will try to keep you posted, but this is a must read, and must be taken very seriously!
   • johnm 4.1

     6 October 2013 at 12:54 pm

     Hi Xtasy
     IMHO This government fairly obviously intends to duplicate at least partly, the fascist treatment of beneficiaries in the U$K. A cruel and heartless attitude which has no justification for NZ, It is not the Kiwi way, but this government is led by a neoliberal puppet called Key and his opportunist collaborator Bennett.
     • Xtasy 4.1.1

       7 October 2013 at 10:33 pm

       johnm – I agree, but the brainwashing, distraction and whole bureaucratic agenda is so “perfected” now, Goebbles could not have done a better job, they are getting away with it, while most are scared into submission, lulled into misinformation and indifference, or simply lied to to a degree, they do not dare to question anything anymore.

       We have fascism at work here, right now in NZ, but most do not realise it, as they think, hey this cannot be fascism, as that is much worse. Those will wake up too late to what is going on, and too many woke up too late in the 1930s and 1940s in Germany too!
5. Te Reo Putake 5

   6 October 2013 at 10:39 am

   Quite a sobering interview with West Ham United’s chairman David Gold ahead of the game against Spurs tomorrow. http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/oct/05/west-ham-david-gold-fans-tottenham-hotspur

   Spurs have significant historic links with the jewish community and the Hammers were a bastion against fascism in the thirties, supporters of the club having shielded East End jews against the Black Shirts and succesfully opposed them in the battle of Cable Street.

   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AQDOjQGZuA

   The last time the clubs met a moronic minority of WHU fans disgraced the club and its traditions by using anti-Semitic chants and hissing to mimic gas chambers. Hopefully there won’t be a repeat tomorrow.
   • muzza 5.1

     6 October 2013 at 11:49 am

     And yet the Yid Army, have been threatened with possible arrest by the police, should they decide to continue using that particular expression!

     Never underestimate the gutter level of football as an entity, and its support base!

     The “game” was finished long ago, the day that FIFA/UEFA corrupted itself, which it is still doing on a daily basis, re Brazil/Qatar!

     Watching “football men” like Platini rent their souls to the establishment, is all that is necessary to know about Big Business Sport!

     The average football fan clings to the entertainment factor, despite the fact their continued funding, ensures the death of their, beautiful game!
     • Te Reo Putake 5.1.1

       6 October 2013 at 11:58 am

       No argument from me, muz (tho I do think Spurs’ fan’s use of Yid is problematic). Ian Holloway is the Voice of Reason: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Utb-coxjkK8
     • halfcrown 5.1.2

       6 October 2013 at 7:02 pm

       Well said Muzza, I could write a book on my experiences as a kid in the fifties how we were treated and looked after by the “adults” mainly dockers when we went to watch Millwall play at New Cross. Visited the pie & eel shop first for a bit of lunch, then got the underground to New Cross. A great afternoon for an east end kid that did not cost much. Millwall was always in the third division,but what the fuck we went there for the football(soccer)

       Don’t watch hardly any sport these days, fucking sick of hearing team “A” with this sponsored shirt going to “take out” team “B” with that sponsored shirt playing on this sponsored ground. brought to you by such & such product on the fucking minute /half minute. Sport is now a load of fucking crap.
   • tc 5.2

     6 October 2013 at 12:16 pm

     Hope you are right but WHU seem to have a core of knuckle dragging diehards determined to have fun ‘cmon guvnor ….you awwright then my son …..just havin a larf’ like when they play millwall.

     lets hope millwalls current issues put them in a good mood and they behave.
     • Te Reo Putake 5.2.1

       6 October 2013 at 12:35 pm

       Fingers crossed, TC. The Hammers have a proud history of anti-racism (even their hooligan crew, the ICF, were multi-racial) and the club were rightly mortified at last year’s events. However, there has been significant growth in the influence of neo-nazis in the East End, which may be reflected in the stands. Not much that can be done about it, but life bans would be a start.

       There is also a polarising debate about whether Spur’s fans positive embracing of the ‘Y’ word is encouraging negative use among fans of other clubs: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/17/david-cameron-yid-really-is-race-hate-word
       • tc 5.2.1.1

         6 October 2013 at 5:54 pm

         Yes and the financial and football gap developed recently between the 2 isn’t helping with Joe Lewis’s billions backing Spurs onto the champions league so he can allegedly cash out the asset.

         Whereas the more frugal streetwise Gold/Sullivan saw a club in need of their backing at West Ham after cashing up at Birmingham City and rescued it from an Icelandic meltdown.

         The growing divide between the haves and have nots feeds all sorts of discontent.
6. Anne 6

   6 October 2013 at 10:55 am

   Something is being prepared to involve people to make assessments for WINZ, who are not even proper medical experts.

   Well who would be surprised? It’s bit like Charter Schools beings set up with teachers who are not teachers by profession. It’s all part of a culture/mindset that looks down on those considered inferior stock (unemployed people and sickness beneficiaries head the list) and who they deem to be only worthy of second class assistance.

   It’s also part of a campaign to employ ‘yes men/women’ who they know will come up with the answers the government are wanting enforced. And on that note:

   I saw recently that John Key looks like he is about to do another ‘Ian Fletcher’ only this time it’s the SIS. A new position of SIS deputy C.E.O has been created. The successful applicant will be spending most of his/her time attached to the PM’s office, and will be liasing with the SIS etc. on matters raised by the PM. Watch this space. Another mate about to be appointed to an highly sensitive position?
   • bad12 6.1

     6 October 2013 at 11:12 am

     In Slippery the PM’s language i would consider that ”being attached to the PM’s Office and liasing with the SIS etc on matters raised by the PM” to mean ”people He wants the SIS to open a file on”….
   • Anne 6.2

     6 October 2013 at 11:17 am

     Here’s the link: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11134454

     This link does not state that the ‘spy master’ is based in the PM’s office, but I thought I read something, somewhere… along those lines.
   • David H 6.3

     6 October 2013 at 11:23 am

     Maybe Key’s got a Cousins, Aunts, Brothers, Sisters, Best Mate’s, number mysteriously on his phone, And it was, just an Accident that he bumped into him in town the other day..
     • tc 6.3.1

       6 October 2013 at 12:21 pm

       Its quite clever from the nats, the more cronies they appoint, and stuff they break up, merge, realign, refocus etc makes a new govts job a shed load tougher with installed obstacles and broken structures.
       • risildowgtn 6.3.1.1

         6 October 2013 at 2:10 pm

         That is why such **appointees** must be sacked…..
7. Molly 7

   6 October 2013 at 10:59 am

   NEF (New Economics Foundation) in the UK release their latest (62 page) report: Distant Neighbours – Poverty and Inequality in Islington.

   Might be good for a Sunday read, especially if you need something to counteract today’s opinion columns in the Herald.
8. greywarbler 8

   6 October 2013 at 2:17 pm

   I just had a good idea for better and more satisfying education for youngsters. Spend time on helping them with the basics plus teach them a variety of things. And then make the goal to help them find what they like doing and give them the chance to do more of it. And use that as a carrot and reward to get them through their basic learning in a capable manner. To use a current expression, the child then ‘owns’ his or her education.

   There was an interview on radionz today on a place called the Corelli school which encourages children with artistic interests and will take them from an early age, and they also do educational subjects to Cambridge level. Parents said it was working out well for children who had been too shy, hadn’t the chance to flourish at school.

   Now that would be a good educational experiment. And one that would be done principally to suit the children’s interests. Unlike what I heard educational scientists discuss this week about Christchurch. Apparently money saving and efficiency was not the basis for many of the school closures and amalgamations there, it was a desire to experiment with new processes. The ground zero effect after the earthquakes was to be the genesis of a new approach to education with of course the object of ‘better educational performance’ or such.

   The fact that the children actually needed security, continuity, accessibility without lengthy travel and so on, didn’t come into the thinking of these highly educated, highly paid educational policy queens. From their royal height they pushed around the children of the poor so they could watch to see which maze they progressed through best.

   There are no doubt some kings in the mix, but it seems to me post-women’s lib has enabled a great bunch of university trained middle class girls to become professional women with little interest or empathy with wider society beyond their own sculpted lives and suburbs.
9. lprent 9

   6 October 2013 at 4:52 pm

   Ok for those of you who were querying about it, I have fixed a timeout on the cookies that was showing up in W3 Total Cache. It was setting the timeout on cookies to 7200 seconds (about 2 hours). I have changed that to 1512000 seconds (~30 days).

   This should prevent you from having re-enter your cookie values more often than that.

   And drat it was on my side after all.
   • Colonial Viper 9.1

     6 October 2013 at 5:20 pm

     And drat it was on my side after all.

     An honest sysop 🙂
     • weka 9.1.1

       6 October 2013 at 5:39 pm

       🙂

       Much appreciated Lynn, cheers.
   • tc 9.2

     6 October 2013 at 5:56 pm

     cheers LP it’s been a right pain, thanks for sorting it.

     I find the standard on android pretty unworkable now, no ‘reply’ or ‘edit’….PC/iPad sweet as.

     While we’re on the subject of the user experience can I get the desktop/mobile theme switch at the top please
     • mickysavage 9.2.1

       6 October 2013 at 9:19 pm

       Get a mac or an iPhone 😀

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