Open mike 07/10/2024

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 7th, 2024 - 83 comments
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83 comments on “Open mike 07/10/2024 ”

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  1. SPC 1
    7 October 2024 at 6:39 am

    Philippa Howden-Chapman is a distinguished professor at the University of Otago at Wellington, the co-director of the He Kāinga Oranga Housing and Health Research Programme, and a former director of the Kāinga Ora Board

    So quickly objecting to the direction of the C of C on housing – here the approach used to increase the number of building consents with a focus on larger "green field" developments (over 30 properties) – an area in decline because off lack of pre-sales while interest costs are high.

    https://www.thepress.co.nz/a/business/350441083/govt-rushes-fix-its-own-error-helped-collapse-construction-sector?

    https://archive.li/RcL7l

  2. SPC 2
    7 October 2024 at 6:56 am

    It is well known that councils are behind on water infrastructure investment – in part because of debt limits (and the unpopularity of increasing rates).

    The C of C wants to facilitate the separation of water bodies from councils to enable more borrowing. This still requires councils to increase rates to pay back the loans.

    So The Taxpayer’s Union a few months back launched a campaign calling for a cap on annual rates hikes – making pay back of the loans impossible. Thus long term necessitating the sale, of these now separated from council, water bodies.

    This would limit annual rates increases to 3% annually, unless councils seek approval from residents for a larger increase through a referendum.

    Commenting on this, Taxpayers’ Union Policy and Public Affairs Manager, James Ross, said:

    “This year, not a single council has managed to keep their rates hikes at or below inflation. Rates can’t keep spiralling forever, and it’s time councils learnt to tighten their belts.

    https://www.taxpayers.org.nz/_taxpayers_union_launches_campaign_to_cap_rates

    This clarifies their opposition to Three Waters, Maori involvement might have blocked block the asset sales to private profit groups.

    The public is being manipulated to water asset sales, as per power companies.

    The Herald has taken up the cause with a focus on the Wellington City Council (not a right wing one).

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/wellington-rates-revolt-leader-retiree-judy-rohloff-on-refusing-to-pay-21-increase/RFEE6COBLJDRJGR476LJU5CTAA/

    Not baby boomers on reddit respond.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Wellington/comments/1eoimuf/rates_increase_revolt_group_and_petition/

    • tWig 2.1
      7 October 2024 at 9:40 am

      Was wondering about the name Taxpayers Union. Sounds like it stands for all NZ taaxpayers equally, with that Union attached. Of course, not all NZ citizens are taxpayers. And 10% of taxpayers paid almost half the tax. Plus, of course, companies pay a wad of tax.

      So, while sounding like an organisation that represents the heaving masses, it could well be representing taxpayers on the basis of the amount of tax paid instead – biased towards the big-gun financers of the NZ state. Just throwing that out there, the power of misleading labelling.

    • Obtrectator 2.2
      7 October 2024 at 10:12 am

      Closing sentences from the story in the first link above:

      Rohloff said she’s not worried about the council’s next steps to reclaim unpaid rates.

      “Let’s face it, this council will hopefully be voted out.”

      I suppose she realises it isn't the elected representatives who'll be pursuing her, but the unremovable bureaucrats?

    • Obtrectator 2.3
      7 October 2024 at 10:15 am

      The original post in the second link has been deleted, although the 50-odd comments responding to it are still up.

    • Shanreagh 2.4
      7 October 2024 at 2:32 pm

      Looking at the WCC case is a warning to all of us left wingers that being tribal lefties can lead us into highways and byways that are not the places that we should be. I voted for the mayor and for a council that includes people who are left wing. I firmly believe that Councils should be free from the leads/directions of political bodies at a national level. I clearly misread the Mayor but one of my picks Councillor Nureddin Abdurahman has come up trumps.

      WCC is a basket case and this left winger believes an Audit investigation or some intervention in the way of a crown observer or even as a last resort taking over the functions of council may have merit. There is waste, OTT spending a such as $500,000 on a bike rack and $86,000 for a set of metal planters and so it goes on. .

      WCC has been led by the nose by an extremely powerful group of staff who play politics (I thought they a were supposed to be apolitical) . Councillors of all stripes find themselves lacking in material that is made public by the WCC.

      The CE of WCC has issued a directive to staff that they are not to go on Facebook pages to enter into political debate. Imagine a CE of a Govt Dept having to do that. In times of old in the PS staff would be hastily looking round for another job after making public, material that was m not made available to Ministers

      So WCC, the existence of the Rates Revolt group & material put out by the TPU is not something that it is easy to put into a leftie spin.

      I went to a public meeting the other day. There was a spread of people including young couples who had just bought a home and were now facing rates increases that will help blow their budgets….why would anyone think an increase of 18% was going to happen or be reasonable, fixed income people,

      Some left wing councillors (Lab/Greens) have forced a rethink of the idea of selling the WCC shares in Wellington Airport on 10/10. If they can get the numbers the current long term plan will have to go back to the drawing board. Many of us are hopeful that the vote will go the way of the Councillors and that many of the wasteful/unneeded or projects that shld be paused meantime will be reviewed. It will also force a shot across the bows of the Council staff edifice and its far too powerful position in the local authority world in Wellington. .

      Should this happen and some sanity prevails I would forsee that ginger groups such as Rates Revolt Wellingotn would not be needed. And those on Reddit with their ad homs will be able to get back to what ever they were doing prior to this kerfuffle.

      The strong message is that we must vote in local body elections. We should take with a grain of salt tthe claims of any prospective councillors and we should be assessing them on their ability to do good for the city they live in/have the city at heart.

      • SPC 2.4.1
        7 October 2024 at 3:20 pm

        The rates increase is because of water infrastructure investment required of councils.

        The rise in rates is nationwide.

        The TU wants a rates increase limit, because that would make it impossible to pay back the loans to fund the investment. Thus forcing the council to become a distressed seller of the asset.

        It's rates increases at c10% because of the water infrastructure alone – year in, year out or sale of the water body. Just saying.

        As for the airport shares, it's a sale or a major saving.

        • Belladonna 2.4.1.1
          7 October 2024 at 3:41 pm

          Rates increases are indeed nationwide. However the appalling water infrastructure deficit in Wellington, should be sheeted home to the failure of multiple councils over the last two decades, to properly fund the maintenance and replacement of the pipes. Plenty of money to spend on nice-to-have amenities, not nearly enough on the actual essentials.

        • Shanreagh 2.4.1.2
          7 October 2024 at 4:17 pm

          It is not to do mainly with water infrastructure at all. Water is dealt with through Wellington Water and WCC has, over the years, been content to fund the bare minimum contribution it can. The current council had the choice of continuing to fund nice to haves or making a really solid investment in water. The huge increases are because of a mass of nice to haves being funded in preference to WCC upping the investment in water and public transport. There was no effort made to keep increases in line with inflation either.

          The sale of the shares is to refund debt & then to immediately draw down more debt to fund the nice to haves. If WCC had said right we will fund infrastructure in the way of water improvements or public transport I think most of us would have said 'gulp but can you bring it down a little?"

          But no. The councillors asking that the LTP be revisited if the sale of the shares is withdrawn are a mix of Green, Labour and Independent. WCC is a crock.

          • SPC 2.4.1.2.1
            7 October 2024 at 4:34 pm

            Key investments in the Long-term Plan, which came into force on 1 July, include:

            • A record $4.8 billion set aside for water infrastructure including $1.8 billion of Wellington Water Ltd funding covering upgrades, renewals, services and repairs;
            • New waste collection services from 2027 including a rates-funded rubbish wheelie bin, a rates-funded weekly organics service and a bigger fortnightly recycling bin;
            • A new Perpetual Investment Fund to be created using proceeds from the sale of the Council’s minority shares in Wellington Airport Limited;
            • Over $42 million spent on upgrading and renewing the city’s Coastal, Town Belt and Reserves infrastructure;
            • $106 million of funding for recreation facilities and services;
            • More than $325 million on operational costs for social housing;
            • Nearly $593 million on renewing and upgrading social housing units;
            • Over $104 million for the completion of the Te Matapihi Central Library;
            • $1.1 billion for the transport network;
            • $500,000 extra each year on social grants for safety initiatives in the CBD.

            https://wellington.govt.nz/news-and-events/news-and-information/our-wellington/2024/07/rates-explained

            • Shanreagh 2.4.1.2.1.1
              7 October 2024 at 5:09 pm

              Well that may have been then but now we have been told, via a XXXXXX that the sale proceeds will be immediately used to pay down debt. Then more debt would be drawn down. No perpetual fund is being set up. I'd have no problem with paying down debt as long as no more funds were drawn down also incurring debt.

              Anyway it is so dodgy now that several councillors who I have a high regard for on all sides of the political sphere have inidcated that they wish to revist the motion that the shares be sold.

              There is debate and this is where the arguments have been that infrastructure improvements should be made using WCC funds and not by selling the family silver. You know income in, outgoings and matching these to actual WCC functions.

              Simeon Brown has slashed WCC list of so-called transport initiatives from NZTA down to 1%. The WCC was intending to pay for some of what should have been funded from its own funds from the NZTA funds for special initiatives. This slashing has set the cat amongst the pigeons. So WCC is possibly losing the income from the sale of the family silver plus it has lost 99% of the funds it could have expected from NZTA.

              In a review of functions it would legitimately have to be asked whether WCC has or should have a role on social housing? perhaps a sale to community groups. But I am not strongly against WCC and its social housing role as it has had it for eons.

              I am more annoyed at the low investment in water and public transport over the years and the nice to haves that continue to be rolled up in the categories you have mentioned.

              I think a rate rise limited to say 8% as some councils have managed would be Ok but 18-21% plus a separately levied sludge fund is joke material, if is wasn't so serious.

  3. Jenny 3
    7 October 2024 at 7:27 am

    '

    October 7

    How will it play out?

    Will the palestinian voices be heard"

    Will we get wall to wall coverage from the Israeli viewpoint?

    Will the atrocity propaganda that fuels the genocide in Gaza get a replay?

    Probably more importantly for us in the West, will leftists, progressives and liberals, feel intimidated and keep their heads down, out of fear of being labeled an anti-semite?

  4. Ad 4
    7 October 2024 at 7:35 am

    Just a big shoutout to everyone in Otago who did the work over the last 4 days:

    Dunedin Council staff who had the south stormwater tanks empty, sandbags out, emergency centres prepped, and all volunteers in those centres

    NZDF and Police who kept it calm and little drama, no stories about people taking advantage

    FENZ for the many rescues and callouts and evacuations, esp in from Palmerston and Naseby

    St John's teams for their own callouts and assisting the coastal isolated groups at Toko Mouth and beyond

    The FH and Downer crews and all the NZTA staff who got out there to keep SH1 closure down to a minimum

    Honestly the people of Dunedin for dealing with it in a low-complaint manner

    Also special shoutout to FH for that rebuild of the Peninsula road over 3 years. Big test and it passed.

    Top work everyone for the very serious and successful work under pressure

  5. Tiger Mountain 5
    7 October 2024 at 7:39 am

    A $100 mill vessel with 21st century tech grounds, burns and sinks to the bottom in Samoa with substantial fuel on board according to the Minister. NZ Defence has sent planes to ferry crew and support but given the recent track record…stranded PMs and suchlike…yes there is one new airplane involved, but fingers crossed…

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/529979/hmnzs-manawanui-what-we-know-about-the-ship-s-sinking

    Hopefully a way can be found to contain or pump off the fuel before the locals reef and fishing area is polluted. But that depends on the depth of where the Manawanui is at I guess.

  6. Jenny 6
    7 October 2024 at 7:44 am

    October 7

    How will it play out?

    Will it be wall to wall media coverage from the Israeli viewpoint?

    Will Palestinian voices be scrubbed out of existance, just as the Palestinians themselves are being scrubbed out of existance?

    Will we have a replay of the atrocity propaganda that fuels the genocide in Gaza?

    Will Leftists, Progressives and Liberals keep their heads down intimidated out of fear of being labeled an anti-Semite?

    Will the word genocide be muttered anywhere?

  7. SPC 7
    7 October 2024 at 7:54 am

    The government of social investment brand fraud looks set to cut funding for the prevention work of public health and community organisations.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/530001/cuts-looming-for-critical-public-health-services

  8. SPC 8
    7 October 2024 at 8:03 am

    Something clearly not in the next 100 days (not while in government, or even next decade).

    Thus having determined on not being a fast follower, the C of C has the alternatives of non compliance or buying it.

    Climate Change Minister Simon Watts admits there is no way to meet New Zealand's commitments under the Paris Agreement without buying overseas help.

    He didn't directly answer when asked if this was a sticking point in the coalition.

    Under the global climate agreement, all countries need to report back by the end of the year showing they are making adequate progress.

    And then later this …

    New Zealand is among the most reliant on these deals in the world, with mots countries doing the majority of their climate work inside their borders. Foreign affairs officials have warned Watts the price of every tonne could rise fivefold if the Government waits until close to 2030 to buy help, because of a last-minute scramble for deals.

    The 2015 Paris Agreement required all countries to set targets for 2021-2030 representing their "maximum ambition".

    How even this lot, can consider LNG terminals and importing LNG, is bizarre.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/530007/new-zealand-first-refuses-to-say-if-it-would-support-buying-climate-action-from-other-countries

    • PsyclingLeft.Always 8.1
      7 October 2024 at 8:25 am

      How even this lot, can consider LNG terminals and importing LNG, is bizarre.

      Because Ideology and the future benefits (I stress: for them, not NZ People and our Environment)

      And the gas lobbyists boast….

      The New Zealand gas industry went to an international fossil fuel forum and claimed responsibility for killing off a proposed government ban on new gas connections.

      Gas NZ presented its success as a model for avoiding regulation for others in the fossil gas industry.

      There is that staple of dirty companies, greenwashing…but gaswashing?

      The Future Sure campaign for Gas NZ was highlighted by a group of advertising, PR and media professionals who are trying to get agencies to swear off fossil fuel clients.

      Newly-formed climate lobby group Comms Declare said Gas NZ "bragged about how it reversed a recommendation by the New Zealand Climate Change Commission to halt new gas connections by 2025 with the help of the Future Sure brand".

      AUT marketing lecturer Matt Halliday said the campaigns' method "seemed very similar to what the other fossil fuel companies are doing, which is saying, 'we are part of the solution', but pushing back very hard against any attempt at trying to reduce emissions".

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/528952/gas-industry-boasts-about-killing-proposed-ban-with-lobbying

      Also…more on those who are not who they purport…

      Carbon neutral PR company put on 'F list' for promoting fossil fuels

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/528941/carbon-neutral-pr-company-put-on-f-list-for-promoting-fossil-fuels

  9. SPC 9
    7 October 2024 at 8:14 am

    The bulk of those selected by Cabinet are in the housing (58), infrastructure (43) and renewable energy (22) sectors.

    There's also a handful for aquaculture (7) and more for mining (11) and quarrying (8) projects.

    Sea bed mining off the Taranaki coast – is the government aware of the possible impact on wind farm projects?

    Trans-Tasman Resources made the cut with its bid to to extract up to 50 million tonnes of seabed material a year off the Taranaki coast, despite being rejected by the Supreme Court in 2021.

    Parker pointed to the recent contamination of the Ohinemuri River as an example of how mines could pollute the environment long after they closed.

    "Those sorts of cleanups in the future, if there are inappropriate overrides to the Resource Management Act or the Conservation Act, the costs of those cleanups in the future will fall to taxpayers and ratepayers."

    Forest and Bird's Richard Capie said it was a dark day for the environment and democracy.

    "The communities affected have had no chance to have a say because this list that has now been written into law has been kept secret. Parliament hasn't had a chance to look at in the Select Committee process.

    Bishop said looking after the environment was "extremely important" but it was a balancing act and the government had a mandate to grow the economy.

    There is never a license to end regulatory practice and process – that is the path of pandering to business corruption and future governments face the cost.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/529996/critics-express-alarm-at-list-of-fast-track-projects

    • Ad 9.1
      7 October 2024 at 8:51 am

      Most NZ economic sectors are in flatline or decline. We're in the worst position since the Depression.

      No doubt an ugly legislation, but if ever a country was in need of reboot, it's New Zealand.

      The big Otago projects will pull more people south and away from Auckland – sorely needed in a grossly imbalanced economy.

      • SPC 9.1.1
        7 October 2024 at 8:56 am

        Not standing with Forest and Bird then?

        • Ad 9.1.1.1
          7 October 2024 at 9:02 am

          I agree with their point about this law being undemocratic.

          I'm a member.

          I'd like to see land use strong enough to push dairy out of Otago. Tourism and masterplanned development is the fastest way to do it.

          Not a moment for choices that sit easy.

          • PsyclingLeft.Always 9.1.1.1.1
            7 October 2024 at 9:36 am

            I'm a member.

            Against fast track seems to be a Forest and Bird strong stand point..Nicola Toki

            “New Zealanders aren’t silly, and we can all see that the proposed Fast-track Approvals Bill as yet retains overriding of longstanding environmental laws, which means that the wildlife and wild places New Zealanders love, and expect to be protected, are still at risk.”

            https://business.scoop.co.nz/2024/08/25/fast-track-approvals-bill-still-fundamentally-flawed-despite-welcome-changes/

            Do you feel ..conflicted? Forest and Bird people I know..say NO to fast track.

            FYI Link for others..who care about NZ's Environment (with many links and advice !)

            https://www.forestandbird.org.nz/campaigns/stop-the-war-on-nature

          • Shanreagh 9.1.1.1.2
            7 October 2024 at 2:47 pm

            I'd like to see land use strong enough to push dairy out of Otago.

            Me too and have a good go at dairying in Canterbiry where it has been longer in recent times. Anything to get pause/get rid of nitrates in water ways. All the while we just add butter, cheese or milk powder to the butter etc mountain and make sure NZ never moves away from commodity trading.

            I’d also like to hit pause on ‘perpetual crop’ pine plantations on good farmland (with the ETS)

            • PsyclingLeft.Always 9.1.1.1.2.1
              7 October 2024 at 2:57 pm

              Do you honestly think NACT1 are interested in any of that ? Fast track for them…wont ever be for the Greater Good.

              • Shanreagh …
                7 October 2024 at 4:47 pm

                Oh I think I am aware of that….it was an addition to Ad's wish for dairying to be pushed out of Otago. Also unlikely with this Govt.

      • Bearded Git 9.1.2
        7 October 2024 at 10:00 am

        It's a sad country that gives absolute priority to developers profits such that environmental effects are ignored.

        There are other ways to reboot the economy.

        • PsyclingLeft.Always 9.1.2.1
          7 October 2024 at 10:10 am

          I know quite a few Environmentally minded people..Incl Forest and Bird. Fast track..is an anathema to them…

      • Matiri 9.1.3
        7 October 2024 at 12:20 pm

        Hope those people 'pulled south' from Auckland don't expect good hospitals and health care! Also essential in a well balanced economy.

  10. SPC 10
    7 October 2024 at 8:27 am

    The Auckland Council reaction to the government cutting its share of the transport budget by 50% (it is a 50% partner in the non road part of this and expecting the council to cut half its share as well).

    It will decide how the money is allocated, not abide by government direction what to do.

    The council’s working group has responded with a full review of AT’s budget, rather than simply accepting the Government’s view of what should be cut.

    This aligns with Mayor Wayne Brown’s view that it is the Government’s job to provide the money and the council’s job to decide how it is spent.

    This potentially puts the council on a collision course with the Government over how to spend transport funds and over who should decide.

    https://archive.li/0LFz1#selection-3745.0-3864.1

    • Ad 10.1
      7 October 2024 at 8:46 am

      The reliance of Auckland Council on government has increased markedly since Len Brown started CRL without government support.

      Auckland Council has no spare money to alter the NLTP priorities. The mayor is all mouth no trousers.

      • SPC 10.1.1
        7 October 2024 at 9:00 am

        Yet

        The council’s working group has responded with a full review of AT’s budget, rather than simply accepting the Government’s view of what should be cut.

      • Visubversa 10.1.2
        7 October 2024 at 10:25 am

        It will be interesting to see how much Ratepayer/Taxpayer $$$$$$ goes into the Fast Tracked new retractable roof for Eden Park. Despite being owned by a private Trust, the Park Board has an inexhaustible appetite for public $$$$, and the political clout to demand and get it.

        • Belladonna 10.1.2.1
          7 October 2024 at 3:12 pm

          Fast tracking a consent doesn't magically provide funding. And I'm pretty sure there is neither government or local government funding being allocated to this (although I'm willing to be corrected, if you have more recent information)

          Of course, the rest of Auckland would like Eden Park to pay it's way with a much increased schedule of events. But the NIMBYs (featuring significant political clout including Helen Clark) are adamantly opposed.

          • bwaghorn 10.1.2.1.1
            7 October 2024 at 4:00 pm

            They should just build an all in one stadium down the water front,

            • Belladonna 10.1.2.1.1.1
              7 October 2024 at 4:17 pm

              Funded by? Surely it's better to use the resources we have, to maximum effect – rather than investing in brand new ones….

              And does this mean that Eden Park is released for intensive Kainga Ora/community housing (that'll make the NIMBYs even more irate!)

  11. Jenny 11
    7 October 2024 at 8:36 am

    New Zealand the first place in the world to see the sunrise.

    This gives us and especially our media a great responsibility.

    How we, and especially our media process and report on global events and anniversaries sets a trend. Reported around the world first.

    We have a duty to get it right

    First Sunrise in the World

    https://maungahikurangi.com/news/first-sunrise-in-the-world/

    The first place in the world to see the sun is the beautiful Tairawhiti Gisborne area in New Zealand. It’s a completely surreal feeling to experience that first birdsong and serene rays – as one of the first people to do so on the whole planet.

    You have your pick of places to head to pre-dawn – whether that’s four wheel driving up Maunga Hikurangi, tackling the steps to the East Cape lighthouse, walking the Tolaga Bay Wharf, surfing Wainui Beach or camping at Anaura Bay.

  12. Sanctuary 12
    7 October 2024 at 8:47 am

    This idea that we won't know how HMNZS Manawanui ended up hitting a known reef, catching fire and sinking until after a court of inquiry is complete nonsense, and smacks of an reflexive desire for a cover up. Rather than a court of inquiry the captain and senior officers should face an immediate court martial to establish how it came to be that they hazarded a well founded (unless it can be shown there was some sort of serious defect that affected their ability to manoeuvre) ship upon a known reef in daylight whilst in possession of advanced hydrographic equipment. What attempts at damage control were there? Why was the ship abandoned so quickly? The immediate evacuation of the ship looks dangerously like a civilian health and safety culture dominating command thinking rather than a fight to save the ship regardless of risk warfighting mindset. For a long time there has been a lot of scuttlebutt about low morale, chronic skills shortages in key areas, poor discipline and poor ship handling being endemic in the Navy, is this one of theose NZ disasters where a lackadaisical, laissez-faire fatalistic culture has taken hold of a key institution? Losing a ship in such an incompetent manner as this should still carry the most serious consequences right through the Navy. One would expect heads to roll.

    • Ad 12.1
      7 October 2024 at 9:10 am

      Still, great time to order a new ship with a replacement frigate order 🙂

      • Tiger Mountain 12.1.1
        7 October 2024 at 9:17 am

        This pack of CoC vandals cannot even bring themselves to order replacement rail capable Cook Strait ferries…

        • Macro 12.1.1.1
          7 October 2024 at 11:00 am

          Exactly. But this secondhand ship is perhaps also the result of buying a gift horse and not examining its mouth hard enough.

    • David 12.2
      7 October 2024 at 9:45 am

      The navy holds a court of inquiry into the loss of any ship. This is the worst possible thing that could happen for any senior naval officer. The captain and the senior officers aboard will be accountable. You can guarantee that there will be a court martial at the conclusion of the inquiry.

    • Belladonna 12.3
      7 October 2024 at 10:25 am

      Those are all the issues which will be canvassed in a court of inquiry.
      If there is incompetence, then I would indeed expect heads to roll.

    • Macro 12.4
      7 October 2024 at 10:50 am

      The established procedure is first a Court of Inquiry, and then having established the facts of the matter, Courts Martial follow if considered appropriate.

      I have served on both a Court of Inquiry, and a Court Martial – separate incidents. Our Inquiry involved a snafu following the commissioning of the 4 Lake Class Patrol Craft, we did not recommend disciplinary action. Someone had organised the menu's main course to be Roast Pork when the Auckland Mayor at the time was Sir Dove-Myer Robinson! The resulting kerffule was entirely understandable. The Court Martial involved the attempted importation of a large quantity of drugs.

    • Anne 12.5
      7 October 2024 at 11:48 am

      I think that is a bit of an over reaction Sanctuary. If you are right it will come out in the wash. It always does.

      My understanding is the reef in question hadn't been surveyed since 1987, and the locals claim it has changed in shape since then. They must have been working off an outdated map and there is always the possibility that climate change played a role in speeding up those changes to a degree not previously known. We'll probably get a good sense of what happened well before the inquiry is complete.

      Word gets around.

      • Anne 12.5.1
        7 October 2024 at 3:21 pm

        It is believed there was a power outage just before they hit the reef:

        https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/350441801/what-we-know-about-hmnzs-manawanui-disaster

        • gsays 12.5.1.1
          7 October 2024 at 4:42 pm

          A reasonably experienced and well connected sea dog I know is asking, 'What the dickens were they doing, working in the weather conditions at the time?'

          What you say is true, double the reason to not be operating so close to the reef in such challenging conditions.

          • Macro 12.5.1.1.1
            7 October 2024 at 5:06 pm

            Do we know how severe the weather conditions were at the time?

            It is a fairly large vessel and having served, know that similar sea states would be situation normal. The ship has operated around the Pacific Islands regularly over the past few years. It is part of the vast area of the Pacific for which NZ is responsible for charting.

            • gsays 12.5.1.1.1.1
              7 October 2024 at 7:06 pm

              While not official, RNZ interviewed a local.

              He said 40 knot winds. No other boats were out. He was surprised they (Mananwanui) were there. As I say, not 'official', which means it hasn't been spun and sanitised.

              Edit; plus, all the thrusters in the world aren’t gonna help if a fire has taken out the power.

        • Macro 12.5.1.2
          7 October 2024 at 5:21 pm

          As referenced by Joe90 yesterday 6 October 2024 at 2:16 pm this is not the first occasion thrusters of the type used on the Manawanui have failed – especially when the power driving those thrusters has been increased – as was the case for the Manawanui.

    • KJT 12.6
      7 October 2024 at 10:29 pm

      Rather a lot of unwarrented, and unsupported by evidence, assumptions to make at this stage.

  13. Hunter Thompson II 13
    7 October 2024 at 10:13 am

    On 22 March 2012 the Hon David Carter, Minister of Agriculture, told the Beef + Lamb NZ Future Farming Conference (excerpt):

    “Water is possibly the biggest opportunity to grow our economy.

    We have plenty of it, but as we know it’s not always in the right place, at the right time.

    Earlier this year we announced the first successful bid for the Irrigation Acceleration Fund (IAF) – the Ruataniwha Project here in the Hawke’s Bay.

    This proposal stands to unlock enormous potential for the region, with the amount of irrigable land likely to increase from 6000ha to around 22,000ha.”

    When the original Ruataniwha dam scheme was mooted, the Irrigation Acceleration Fund handed over $575,000 of taxpayer money to advance the project.

    Forest & Bird Society got the project blocked after lengthy litigation going all the way to the Supreme Court. A senior Dept of Conservation official and his minister wanted to do a land swap that would have allowed the dam to proceed.
    The saga is discussed at https://www.nzgeo.com/stories/unpacking-ruataniwha/#:~:text=On%20July%206%2C%20the%20Supreme,is%20not%20a%20revolving%20door).

    The government has now released its list of 149 projects that are the basis of its plan to boost the economy by trashing the environment.

    One is described as:

    “Tukituki Water Security Project Tukituki Water Security Project Hawkes Bay Infrastructure

    Formerly known as the Ruataniwha Water Storage Scheme, the project seeks to dam the Makaroro River to recreate a water storage reservoir, to enable regional water security and sustainability.”

    So it’s on again. Note the statement is careful not to say what the supposed “sustainability” is aimed at. My guess is it will be the incomes of a few farmers, funded as always by the environment.

  14. Hanswurst 14
    7 October 2024 at 12:04 pm

    Am I the only one whose teeth are set on edge by Judith Collins' constant use of the double copula?

    • Jilly Bee 14.1
      7 October 2024 at 12:51 pm

      My (remaining) teeth are always set on edge by Judith Collins – double copula or not.

    • Belladonna 14.2
      7 October 2024 at 3:13 pm

      Probably. We are much less tolerant of the verbal quirks of politicians we dislike.

      • Hanswurst 14.2.1
        7 October 2024 at 11:20 pm

        Speak for yourself (instead of self-declared centrists everywhere).

        • Belladonna 14.2.1.1
          8 October 2024 at 8:00 am

          I am speaking in general. Most people are less tolerant of verbal quirks in people they dislike.

          No doubt you're the exception that proves the rule.

          Oh, wait. You're not. You hate Collins. And you find her speech patterns annoying. Bang on target!

  15. Subliminal 15
    7 October 2024 at 12:31 pm

    It's becoming increasingly clear as to the benefits Israel gains from having both Hamas and Hezbollah listed, in as many western countries as possible, as a terrorist organisation.

    Mick Hall in his latest substack article, Repression of anti-genocide forces in Australia, NZ media goes after Labour MP, highlights the case in Australia where it is now no longer permissable to show any support for the one organisation that prevents a new rampage through Lebanon by Israel. This is taken to the extent that a simple question by an ABC reporter as to the reasons why Hezbollah is listed as such, is taken as implicit support of terrorism.

    In NZ, Chris Hipkins recently signed off on continuing our designation with the Statement of the case to renew listing 3 missile strikes on the Shebaa farms as the sole incident for this designation. The Shebaa Farms are of course occupied territory.

    But all this pales when it is realised that the true point of all this is to allow Israel to designate the whole structure of Palestinian society as terrorist and allow the US to agree to the siege and starvation and famine that has been inflicted on Gaza.

    This is why Israel can bomb hospitals and claim the presence of terrorists.

    An article on Dropsite News (a splinter from The Intercept) outlines the process by which Blinken and Biden gave their approval for all that is and will happen in Gaza. It was made possible by the terrorist designation and is now being repeated in Lebanon where all civilian structures are being targeted using the terrorist designation of Hezbollah as justification for their complete destruction all health, teaching and civil society structures.

    From the article:

    The following day, after an additional round of Cabinet meetings, this time helmed by both Blinken and Biden, an outline of the decision was publicly announced by Prime Minster’s Netanyahu’s office: “We will not allow humanitarian assistance in the form of food and medicines from our territory to the Gaza Strip” and, in a separate Hebrew version, “In light of President Biden's demand, Israel will not thwart humanitarian supplies from Egypt as long as it is only food, water and medicine for the civilian population located in the southern Gaza Strip or moving there, and as long as these supplies do not reach Hamas. Any supplies that reach Hamas will be thwarted.” The Hebrew word לסכל, “to thwart,” is frequently used by Israel to describe targeted killings and assassinations. The previous policy of "thwarting" all humanitarian supplies from entering Gaza was conveyed to Egypt as an explicit threat to "bomb" aid trucks.

    The substance of the Blinken-approved policy was starkly conveyed by Security Cabinet member Bezalel Smotrich, who later told the Israeli media: “We in the cabinet were promised at the outset that there would be monitoring, and that aid trucks hijacked by Hamas and its organizations [sic] would be bombed from the air, and the aid would be halted.”

    So any police escort of aid meant bombing because Hamas. Any presence of Unrwa meant bombing because of Israeli accusations of Hamas. Any civil society person recieving a wage automatically becomes a terrorist. Lavender, the AI that automates the selection of Palestinian targets is loaded with all these people designated as Hamas and trained to identify anyone with similar habits. This all becomes a self reinforcing loop that designates all Palestinians as Hamas. Its the cartoon of rocket launchers in every room of every house. And it is this nightmare that is being rebooted in Lebanon.

    https://www.dropsitenews.com/p/blinken-approved-policy-bomb-aid-trucks

  16. Belladonna 16
    7 October 2024 at 1:05 pm

    the one organisation that prevents a new rampage through Lebanon by Israel.

    Ignoring, completely, that there would be no need for any 'rampage through Lebanon, if Hezbollah hadn't been firing rockets into Israel.

    • Subliminal 16.1
      7 October 2024 at 2:02 pm

      Even if we ignore your implied assent to the slaughter of civilians and by extension, some sort of agreement with Madeleine Albright and the death by starvation of 500 000 Iraqi babies and children, there is still the small matter that between October 2023 and June 2024 Israel fired over 5 times more missiles into Lebanon than Hezbollah into Israel.

      The graph showing this is embedded into a post by Craig Murray who ends it with the following:

      Israel’s TikTok army of child-killers, rapists and lingerie-flaunters will take heavy casualties if it advances into Lebanon. It is currently launching intense air attacks, but it cannot destroy Hezbollah that way, not even were it to triple the colossal amount of explosive it has dropped on Gaza.

      Netanyahu’s strategy of assassinations and deadly stunts appears to be an attempt to goad Hezbollah out of their own territory into a suicidal advance into Israel. But Nasrullah is not falling for it.

      It is worth stressing that, contrary to the propaganda, in the last year Israel has hit Lebanon with five missiles for every one sent by Hezbollah.

      Nasrallah is now dead but the resistence will go on because everyone understands that an army like the IDF (the most moral army in the world™) whose snipers take pleasure in head shots to toddlers; where doctors write letters to Biden pleading with him that they have never been in a war zone where every day preteens are assasinated; will not stop until it is defeated.
      https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2024/09/netanyahu-plays-chicken/

      • Belladonna 16.1.1
        7 October 2024 at 3:04 pm

        If you harbour a terrorist organization which is attacking your neighbour – then you can either control them yourself (Lebanon has notably failed to do this), or your neighbour will do it for you.

        Note that Israel hasn’t been lobbing missiles into Egypt (for example). Just into the countries which are actively attacking them.

        If your terrorists are notably incompetent (which is what you appear to be saying) – Israel is both better at protecting civilians from missiles and better at effectively retaliating – both against the terrorists and those harbouring them – then that doesn't excuse the government for failing to act.

        If you're arguing that Israel and Lebanon are in a war. Well, people die in wars. Civilians die in wars. Have a look at what's happening in Sudan, right now.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudanese_civil_war_(2023%E2%80%93present)#Humanitarian_impact

        Amazingly being ignored by the pro-Palestine movement. /sarc/

  17. georgecom 17
    7 October 2024 at 2:54 pm

    seems this piece of news might have slipped by without comment. Nicola McKee apparently doing a "Casey Costello" regards advice she gave to a previous government on gun control McKee is adamant she provided advice to then police minister Paula Bennett. Official documents make no mention of this advice and Bennett herself cannot recall any such advice.

    • Obtrectator 17.1
      7 October 2024 at 4:55 pm

      "Bennett herself cannot recall any such advice."

      If McKee were a fellow-Nat, though …. who knows?

      • georgecom 17.1.1
        7 October 2024 at 5:44 pm

        seems Bennett isn't trying to cover for McKee telling……………..a different story than the paper work suggests

  19. aj 19
    7 October 2024 at 5:36 pm

    Luxon has an incredible mind where he says sensible things, agreeing with the previous government's policy, but those words don't reconcile with the governments actions.

    … three waters infrastructure challenges … we need a national system response here not councils going of and doing their own thing…

    • Asked if government would consider funding to buy-out homeowners in low-lying parts of Dunedin, Luxon said extreme weather events and three waters infrastructure challenges were not just affecting Dunedin, but were a national issue.
    • "Importantly for us on events like this we also need to start to think about climate adaptation and actually how we're going to deal with all of those issues across the country – they are difficult issues," Luxon said.
    • "We need a national system response here, not just bespoke responses where councils go off and do their own thing."

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/530051/pm-side-steps-questions-on-declined-dunedin-flood-risk-mitigation-plan

    • georgecom 19.1
      7 October 2024 at 5:47 pm

      in other words voices platitudes, truisms, nice sounding words, but does nothing about the problem. his climate change policy pretty much

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