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6:00 am, December 7th, 2021 - 106 comments
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The current rise of populism challenges the way we think about people’s relationship to the economy.We seem to be entering an era of populism, in which leadership in a democracy is based on preferences of the population which do not seem entirely rational nor serving their longer interests. ...
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Toby Manhire on Luxon's caucus shuffle https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/06-12-2021/skills-ethics-and-grunt-has-chris-luxon-shuffled-up-a-winning-pack
The man with the funny shoes is faithful.
https://twitter.com/btlane/status/1467908891811872771
Some folk are more cynical.
https://twitter.com/rugbyintel/status/1467929997922881537
Interesting Hooton influence there … for some reason, a couple of years ago he wanted to reprise National's very unsuccessful 1972 Election Campaign slogan: "Man for Man the Strongest Team" … albeit updated for 21st Century sensibilities.
Looks like the Nats are now running with this recalibrated slogan.
It should be "national, going negative since for ever"
I wonder how many readers will have to look it up? Oft featuring in popular psychology books & cultural analyses, it not only has a wiki but also its own website: https://www.prisonexp.org/
Only if you haven't noticed the intensity of his prolonged attempt to hunt down & surpass Hilary Clinton's track record (longest prominent political career whilst never saying anything intelligent). Obviously Luxon noticed.
Sending these guys a message to stop fizzing and go bang. Kind of him to retain the deadwood though, eh? Kindness is trendy.
Data journalism, eh? Swordfish take note! I guess we could call this subgroup of their caucus the rotating leadership cabal.
I look forward to JC producing an analysis of cutting-edge tech trends with serious political implications. Oh, but they'd never release it. Of course.
Well from our very own sidebar there is this issue tailor made for JC to sink her teeth into:
https://www.gisborneherald.co.nz/column/opinion/20211205/free-speech-under-attack/
This is incredibly worrying. One of the 7 scientists wrote the respectful letter to the Listener is a Maori. He is being investigated by the Royal Society. WTF
I attended UofA many decades ago as a very lowly undergrad. The sound STEM education I received has served me very well ever since. I've worked in engineering and heavy industry fields all my life. At the same time I've been a long-standing member of a faith community also most of my life.
Both shape and inform my life, but I can tell the difference between them. And Maori mythology is a religious schema – not a science. That the peak science body in this country refuses to acknowledge this simple distinction – is evidence not so much that they're idiots, but that they're all cowards.
I find it strange that there is such eagerness for Maori cultural understandings to be endorsed by and subsumed into the European developed method that we call science
All pre-industrial societies survived on a body of 'observational knowledge', handed from generation to generation. In most instances it was often sophisticated and complex in detail, but usually framed in mythological or superstitious terms that constrained it's usefulness.
As an example – for millennia various isolated individuals understood and worked with the rudiments of electric charge and batteries. It was an observational knowledge that appears in fragmentary archeological records. But it was not until the scientific revolution formalised strutures of hypothesis, experiment and evidence, that individuals like Kirchoff and Maxwell could transform our knowledge of electricity into the universal, world changing tool it has become.
It's perfectly possible to value and respect both bodies of knowledge, without the completely failing to distinguish between the two. On this wider theme you may enjoy this essay, that's energetically expressive – if a tad unhinged :
Loving it already!
Yeats said it a hundred years ago in The Second Coming, better and certainly shorter than Luther's Last Laugh, good though it was. A wise person wrote that poets foresee about fifty years ahead. Yeats was longer-sighted.
Thats a good insight thanks. I must read more Yeates.
I found the reference to Yeats'. I thought the reference was to foresight but it goes further to say the poet influences issues but 50 years later. It's a good article.
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/may/30/things-fall-apart-the-apocalyptic-appeal-of-wb-yeats-the-second-coming
“I find it strange…”
I don’t, Francesca.
“About time”, is what I think.
Well Robert, as far as gardening goes and some medical things(I've been a long time user of flax gunk on intractable sores and wounds) I do take note of and follow Maori lore.."where were you when the riroriro were singing?"…time to get the kumara started, although it's really a little red hen retort
And hearing the arrival of the shining cuckoo ,I know it's spring..as if I didn't otherwise.And I love that kind of knowledge, but it's a beautiful narrative that also makes sense, not a rigorous discipline.
As to why and how all this magic happens, the minutiae of soil science and plant disease, wound healing, the behaviour of microrganisms, how my body works, the endicrinology system, and the endless and ongoing development of all this knowledge, I turn to western science for that.
Thanks, francesca.
So, you use "flax gunk" and find it effective (“long-time user") and in order to understand the why and how, you've turned to western science, and now you are assured.
Without that scientific confirmation, you wouldn't continue with that practice.
Yes?
Or no 🙂
I am always curious , and the western scientific method which might tell me why this works, what compounds are in play etc engenders even more of a sense of wonder.I would keep using the gunk without the science behind it because it works for me, knowing why it works is a huge buzz.
Science for me is hugely exciting
I too, use "flax gunk" where needed.
Being curious is the most admirable of human characteristics, imo.
Yes, "knowing why it works" is a huge buzz.
Knowing that it works is pretty satisfying also 🙂
Good science, I believe, requires good imagination.
That doesn't sound right!
Does it?
No option for reply with your last comment
Matauranga uses observation and notes that certain plants work for certain complaints for example.
European science also begins with observation and intuition then continues to find out why it works, what are the pathways , what are the recommended doses, what is the best delivery, can we upscale and synthesise , endless trials and safety data to minimise accidental death
It's different , It's the European methodology
European pharmaceutical methodology includes employing intuition??
Are you sure, francesca?
Kinda felt they'd stamped that airy-fairy stuff out long ago.
Researchers very often start with a hunch,medical or otherwise,form a hypothesis and test it
"Researchers often start with a hunch…"
Indeed they do, and stooping over a microscope is often cited as the reason for that.
Intuition and imagination are the most powerful tools in the scientist/tohunga's bag of (magic) tricks.
You and I seem to share a confidence in this.
.
Extreme self-indulgence of the affluent culturalist Woke … narcisssists prioritising prestige enhancement over all else (defend highly privileged class position & increasingly authoritarian accumulation of power by signalling "unique moral goodness" via the ritualistic repetition of various abstract codes of belief … including a deeply paternalistic-heroic rescuer Noble Savage / Exotic Other Romanticism regarding indigenous people in general).
You don't think that refraining from living on a fault line is "science" derived from observation? Even if it is addressed as "mythological" understanding. It meets the "science" requirements of observed and consistent, repeatable reality.
However I will join you in objecting to the suppression of"free speech".
Once again , it's what we mean by science.
The sun comes up every morning .I know that with a fair degree of reliability.Day after day, the observation is repeated.
The scientific knowledge of our solar system, and our place in it, and what's actually happening during our orbit, goes beyond the observational(with the naked eye)
Observation is a large part of science.
In fact a lot of the more detailed understanding we have is because of better methods of observation.
Particle accelerators instead of optical microscopes.
Newtonian physics is not invalidated by our nowadays much more detailed observation of quantum physics. Neither is Polynesian navigation..
Polynesian navigation to name just one example, entirely fits the definition of "science".
As someone proffesionally trained in "Western" Navigation, which actually mostly originated in China and the far East BTW, I can appreciate the skills in observation and what we would call “scientific research” that it involved.
Noting that most of the criticism of science is in reality criticicism of people that didn’t follow the “science”. Like the paid “researchers” for tobacco or oil companies.
Knowledge is also broader than science.
Astrology might tell us lots of interesting stories but it's useless for plotting the trajectory of a rocket to the Moon.
Basically what we like to call “pure science” is physics & chemistry + mathematics.
Other sciences seem to me to be basically observational studies & analysis, & on that score matauranga Māori is based on observational science every bit as much as other earth sciences are.
The difficulty we seem to get into is that much of it is wrapped within Māori folklore & atua stories as a way of ensuring it was remembered and respected. The mythology parts of it are what scientists seem to mostly object to. Diverting roadways because a taniwha supposedly lives there, kind of stuff.
Rather than get into heated debates over whether matauranga Māori is “science”, we might do better to define Enlightenment or “pure” science, perhaps.
There are certainly areas of Māori traditional knowledge & practices relating to botanical knowledge & medicinal or chemical properties of native plants, trees & shrubs that are attracting the current interest of university & maybe even some commercial researchers looking for useful products & medicines etc.
Observation is a large part of science.I agree , so is intuition.But science doesn't stop there.
Yes, observation (as in Capt Cook, transit of Venus)is aided by the invention of telescopes and chronometers etc.I'd put them in the category of scientific advance.
As far as I'm concerned it's not a put down or dismissal of Maori knowledge to say that it doesn't fit the definition of European science(the scientific method)
Why not have both ?
"Why not have both ?"
That's the proposal.
You can, & we should.
Part of the problem is that the word “science” has been debased – or redefined – by its use being extended to cover very broad range of fields of study at universities.
I mean, for example, “political science”? What is scientific about politics?
Cool, you won’t have objection to hesitant Maori vaxers turning to kawakawa instead of Pfizer.
When I say both , we can have them in separate kete, we don’t have to shoe horn them into the same box
Matauranga is Maori science , there may be some resemblances, but it isn't European science .No value judgement in that statement
Both have limitations
This debate is starting to resemble the whole trans activist thing where language has to do the work of the current orthodoxies in the name of inclusion.
"Cool, you won’t have objection to hesitant Maori vaxers turning to kawakawa instead of Pfizer."
No more objection than I'd have to hesitant Pakeha vaxers turning to parsley instead of Pfizer.
No worries, aye!
.
For a useful critque guaranteed to upset our wonderfully "moral" (LOL) Noble Savage Romanticists:
SCIENCE AND MĀTAURANGA MĀORI – Elizabeth Rata's Blog
click on download half-way down.
Afaik te kupu 'matauranga' means knowledge, not science. Science is a part of it, it's not the whole thing itself.
True that both have limitations. The problem we have is that science wants to be the boss and matauranga wants plurality. Also, science is reductionist by nature, matauranga is based in systems thinking, so while there are two sides to a coin, one side opens into multiple options and the other continues to narrow things down including its own ability to see outside its own self.
that last bit is tripping us up. Science heads resist it, but it's possible that if they give up the reductionist stuff they won't be able to do science. Equally, for system thinkers, if science is applied to how kawakawa works too rigourously, it might break some of the power that kawakawa has (which is intrinsically in the relationship between the plant/healer and the person needing healing. Sorry science, but you cannot study that very well with your current tools). I don't think science heads care about that, because science is god. The rest of us are going, holy fuck, here comes the collapse of nature.
This sort of attitude is just what's needed if we really want to see clearly the contributions of science, and other ways of knowing, to an understanding of reality. Imho scientific understand always reveals new mysteries – it never ends…
Did you know that some 'science heads' have been attempting to horn in on those other ways of knowing – when will these johnny-come-lately learn?!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_science
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antireductionism
horn/hone
slip, cup, lip.
DKM, you think it's good that science doesn't care about what it breaks?
Horn in being the operative word. Very patriarchal. Here's another way: adopt a philosophy that allows for multiple ways of understanding, science being one of them, and then no horning in is necessary.
weka, my “this sort of attitude” comment was provoked by your apparent attitude towards “science heads” and their supposed “science is god” beliefs. Should I bite my tongue?
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/horn%20in
As long as some on each 'side' (science vs other ways of knowing) are wedded to propagating division and exclusion, progress will be slower than it needs to be. One could argue that there's a need to slow down 'progress' in selected areas, but dampening curiosity is problematic.
I like to think of myself as an open-minded 'science head' (if that term was intended to be pejorative, then I choose not to take it that way) . To me it means being curious (wanting not only to know, but also to understand), and skeptical – regularly reminding myself that my current knowledge and understanding ranges somewhere between non-existent (or flat-out wrong), and incomplete. Which is great; to me that's what makes science such a fantastic adventure – a continually evolving journey of discovery – an exploration of reality.
Science isn't the only way to know and understand reality, but imo it has a place, especially for the curious. Disclaimer: I'm a 'cat person'.
No, you could instead explain your thinking. What I saw was you taking a sound bite from my detailed comment, out of context, and saying something about it that appeared to be approving of science breaking things. If that's not what you mean then please explain what you did mean.
If you wanted to just talk generally about my attitude towards science, then my suggestion is don't sound bite quote from my comment but just reply directly with what you are thinking about the whole 👍
Ok, so what you meant was,
I have no idea what you are trying to say. That science wants to colonise other ways of knowing? Instead of giving me a dictionary definition and expecting me to mind read, please just explain what you are meaning. Then we can converse.
It's science that is creating the binary division. Other ways of knowing already include science. Science wants to be the boss.
There's nothing about other ways of knowing that involves damping curiosity, where did you get that idea from?
Ae, it has a place. This is the point 👍
To give you an idea of what I have been meaning about science heads wanting to be boss,
.https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-05-12-2021/#comment-1840078
That position closes the door on the best understanding coming from science and otherways of knowing. Again, it's the science heads that are making it either/or.
Science is not my "god" as some continue to obnoxiously assert. But there is a fairly well defined line between established testable scientific knowledge that is based on a quantifiable and experimental evidence, and traditional folk wisdom.
Both have their place. But attempting to shoehorn cultural mythologies into the domain of "science" looks to me like donning a white coat and calling oneself a doctor. It's not accurate.
I know science isn't your god, you have your own religious faith. But that's not what I am saying. I'm saying people who hold science up as the best way of knowing treat science as if it's the best way of knowing. 'science as god' is a metaphor.
Here's the problem: framing traditional folk wisdom as if it's not based on empiricism. You think the old wives just made shit up?
Is that actually being done? What would be a specific example?
If matauranga Maori can be added to the official curriculum then so should the Christian foundations of Western culture. Seriously.
@weka (6:08 pm): That sound bite from your detailed comment contained the term "science head" and the phrase "science is god". The purpose was to highlight your use of those terms/phrases.
The purpose of my main paragraph ("This sort of attitude…") was to critique your use of those terms by way of sarcasm, and I apologise for that, but hope you can understand what triggered me to respond in such a provocative/confusing fashion – science occupies a prominent position in (forming) my worldview. In spite of its manifold imperfections, I unashamedly value 'science' – it’s only human.
Hopefully we both want a genuine discussion about what and how science and other ways of knowing can contribute to understanding, and can have that discussion without resorting to "science head" and 'non-science head' jibes. Imho "breaking things' is generally a poor approach to solving problems (regardless of what/who is doing the breaking), although it may occassionally have it's place.
Yes, this is both our points – we agree. This unashamed 'science head' believes that all ways of knowing are worthy of critical consideration, be they tradition-based, science-based, other-based, or some overlap of multiple ways.
That's helpful, thanks – trying to put it into words: that 'science' (or at least some scientists; 'science' is large and unwieldy), are well aware of other ways of knowing. and that the knowledge generated by these other ways informs both their research and their methods.
As for "Science wants to be the boss.", well, most of us wouldn't mind being the boss on occasion. I'm just happy that science managed to secure a place at the table a few centuries back, or it would have been curtains for me.
I assumed that there would have been times, during the development of knowledge via those other ways of knowing, when individuals might have sought to suppress (further) enquiry. For example, the positions of influence that 'medicine men', wise women, shamans and priests/priestesses held in traditional and/or older cultures might depend to some extent on keeping secrets and discouraging questions. Maintaining the influence of the Delphi oracle, and the heresy of heliocentrism, spring to mind as examples.
I prefer to leave the 'door' ajar – always leave room for doubt.
@roblogic
with all due respect, I think you have a mistaken idea about what mātauranga Māori is. Sacha just posted a list of links that include this,
https://resiliencechallenge.nz/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Hikuroa-2017.pdf
https://maoridictionary.co.nz/
The way I think about it is that when Māori arrived in NZ, did they learn what to eat here by prayer and using mythologies from other lands, or did they have methods of empiricism that enabled them to learn what could be eaten and what could be not? It seems extremely unlikely to me that they had no empirical methods for learning how to live here.
In the West we separate religion and science, in te ao Māori, there's an integration. To the Western mind this looks crazy, to Māori and decolonised minds it makes sense and works. The argument at the moment is whether the western mind can be taught the value of the whole systems thinking.
@DMK,
Thanks for clarifying! I find sarcasm a poor mix with philosophy unless I am following someone on twitter whose work I understand and know. But for conversation, I'm always better if people speak straight.
Yes, I'm speaking provocatively. However I personally don't see science head as a pejorative any more than I see geek as an insult when talking about tech heads. I'm curious why you took it as a insult, and also if you have a term that you prefer (I'm not especially attached to my term).
I also appreciate you taking the time to make your own position clear. I think it's fair to say that we have overlap in our beliefs that may lend to some interesting conversations. Much of my challenge here is for those who treat science as god, but listening to you I'm not sure this applies to you.
I've given you the example of the discussion with rob, who does appear to see science as being the best and at the top of the hierarchy. This creates all sorts of problems which I am trying to name.
Yes, some scientists are aware of other ways of knowing. Some also are multilingual in ways of knowing. My comments here are more about the people who have certains philosophical beliefs about science (whether those people are scientists or not).
Re damping curiosity, the irony here is that it's now the other ways of knowing that are being shut down. And I was thinking about science now not in the past. Are you thinking that science may end up not being acceptable?
Might have something to do with the negative way that form of labelling is used in other contexts – you must know some of them: 'petrol head', "piss head", 'pothead', 'big-head', 'butt-head', etc., etc.
Maybe there are some complimentary examples too [Wisehead? Nope, even that's not too good.] – would be interestng
Happy to close the door on whether you intended "science head" to be an insult – most people can spot one, especially if they're hit over the head a few times.
I interpreted your original comment:
as suggesting that these (historical and current) other ways of knowing were/are free of influences that might dampen curiosity, but since knowledge is power that seems unlikely to be universally true of any way of knowing – human behaviour 101.
Other ways of thinking, including non- and/or unscientific ways, may gain traction over time – certainly if modern civilisation collapses then the odds would be better than even, imho.
It seems increasingly common for people to bemoan that they, or a cause/idea they support, is being shut down, so maybe you have a point about other ways of knowing being shut down. I can think of a few examples of other ways of knowing, and practises derived from same, that science has attempted to ‘get to the bottom of‘, and so shut down, albeit sometimes with little success. For example, homeopathic 'medicine'.
Re homeopathy, I remember back to a paper published in the highly-regarded scientific journal Nature – made a bit of a splash at the time! Fortunately science is largely self-correcting (some corrections take longer than others); probably goes for most other ways of knowing as well – trial, error, all that. And so the homeopathy door closed a little further (for me) – still ajar though.
"In the West we separate religion and science, in te ao Māori, there's an integration. To the Western mind this looks crazy, to Māori and decolonised minds it makes sense and works."
I don't think Galileo would agree with that attitude. The last 3 or 4 centuries since the Enlightenment have seen the establishment of science as an independent domain of study, before that it was tangled up with theology and particular interpretations of holy scripture. (also, science isn’t an exclusively western phenomenon.. that’s a rather eurocentric view)
Forgive my skepticism.
That sounds very abusive RL, especially from a moderator who deletes other peoples posts for alleged abuse. Shame on you
So you approve of cancelling academics who speak out on their topics of expertise?
No
SCIENCE AND MĀTAURANGA MĀORI – Elizabeth Rata's Blog
Half-way down … click on the black download button.
That is a great article thank you Swordfish. Very clear. I know feel better informed about what distinguishes science from Matauranga Maori.
I guess it occurs to me if scientists were wanting to say they are exactly the same as Matauranga Maori, some wouldn't like that. Like with the haka.
If its o.k. for one culture to set boundaries around their toanga, then why not another?
Ive got a feeling not everyone’s read the article, and are bringing to the discussion their own beefs about colonisation , or beefs about having to accomodate new definitions in the name of inclusion .
I’ve only read it thanks to Swordfish .Thanks!
Thanks. Finally got around to reading it. Makes it's case very clearly and well worth the read.
Frankly people who think Matauranga Maori and science are on an equal footing fall into one of two camps; those who don't know enough science to understand how preposterous this claim is, or those who do but are too cowardly to say so.
Another parallel example would be Traditional Chinese Medicine – a completely different model of how the body works that personally I find quite fascinating – but isn’t science.
Your mention of Chinese medicine reminds me of our experience of it.
We were facing fertility issues and endometriosis. The G.P. and other experts weren't making progress and we ended up with the conclusion that pregnancy would help alleviate the endo.
Partly despair, partly curiosity we went to Wellington to see a Chinese herbalist. His initial consult was in stark contrast to what we had experienced prior. Very holistic enquiry, to the point of 'What has that got to do with anything?'.
He ended up 'prescribing' 2 lots of pills. One, were once a day, the other (looked like a licorice ball), once a week. I clearly remember him, at the end of the consult, putting his arm around my wife's shoulders, saying "You will have a baby". Needless to say, just short of 20 years ago we were blessed with a son.
You may not view it as science but my experience tells me it works.
This doesn't mean Chinese good, Western bad.
Commerce's tendrils can and does undermine, influence and taint science. G.P.s getting perks for shifting a certain amount of product. Big Pharma skewing or omitting trial results.
The hillbilly heroin epidemic comes to mind. Sackler family, Purdue Pharma and Oxycontin is an example of the worst excesses of this.
Part of the Vax hesitancy is down to deep mistrust of the industry and the science.
I've been following that particular little shit storm…our defender of scientific truth and pink coiffure did not cover herself in glory at all. Shouldn't we have done our research before launching into the rabble rousing?
??
I missed it
Got it!
Siouxsie joined in with the outrage
I think Siouxsie might have started it. For goodness sake, ganging up like that. Seems like she might have been trying to have them cancelled.
Very ironic when is Maori. Why not write a counter article articulating why she disagrees with them.?
There have been plenty of considered, articulate responses since July. Here is a very brief one: https://scientists.org.nz/resources/Documents/PressReleases/NZAS-M%C4%81tauranga%20and%20Science.pdf
This is only being stirred up again now because the freeze peach brigade have too many credulous repeaters. Colonial racism is easy.
freeze peach
Oooh! Is that the shade of pink? Thanks, my haidresser was asking as she gets so many inquiries from keen emulators.
thanks, great link.
tbf, I think a lot of people have a mistaken understanding of what mātauranga Māori is, and think it's just about myths, legends and religious belief.
As I said the issue for me isn't about is Matauranga Maori is science or not (although I feel better informed for reading swordfishes link).
My issue is that 7 academics/scientists wrote a very respectful article to the Listener, stating their opinion that Matauranga Maori isn't sciene. One of these scholars is Maori.
They are now being investigated by the Royal Society. I think it is a good thing the Free Speech Union is defending their right to express their professional opinion on this. Are you saying that the Maori biochemist who is one of the 7 is a colonial racist?
You might be interested to read the link Swordfish put up as this explains why some academics believe that Matauranga Maori isn’t science.
Elizabeth Rata has form. Google is your friend. Listen to Māori academic experts.
Most of them look like….'floaters'!
Or…he'll take all the credit.
Like all bosses do.
Clearly a master of the art of exhibiting the legendary kiwi complacency. He didn't say "The ranking was based on performance, as our leader outlined, not merit." Since those who believe they have merit often don't feel the need to prove it, it'll be interesting to see if he continues to be an empty space.
Jo Moir, Newsroom's political editor:
Is the copybook western regime change occurring in the Solomons!-opinion…
Solomon's Govt pivots from Taiwan/U.S patronage to China.
With tensions rising in the region, the western security services do not want this behaviour to become contagious.
The inter tribal rivalry in Solomons politics is fertile ground for the opposition to ferment action against the Govt.
Organised protests escalate into rioting and violent civil disorder.
The P.M's residence is torched.
Clearly he needs help.Australian military respond and arrive in Honiara in the blink of an eye.
You Kiwi's will be backing us on this…won't you…yes…very good.
The western forces are despatched to restore order and provide stability.
Meanwhile the Parliament becomes the scene for fierce debate ,with the primarily Malaita opposition demanding the resignation of the P.M Sogavare,who shows no signs of leaving.
Malaita's allegience lies with Aus/U.S.
Possible outcome -the military will intervene and declare an interim Govt,until the situation is stable.
But don't worry democracy lovers,free elections will be held by 2023.
… and the interim government will be selected by???
Oh, why bother asking. The fiasco is just a repeat of the usual manufactured 'democratic' coups where the usual suspects have been in play.
To KJT, the Romans blamed Vulcanus, the Greeks Poiseidon,, the ancient Japanese a catfish named Namazu, the Norse a giant wolf called Fenis Wolf, all of whom stomped around below the surface just like Ruaumoko and the reason in Latin is 'sive deus sive dea ' roughly whichever God is pissed off with us now. Not wanting to live next to an obvious fault line is observational knowledge, clever and sensible but not science. Science is finding out where the ones you can't see are and why they are there and what causes them, using scientific methodology, not faith, belief and myth as explanation. there is not a single religious ethos that is provable, which is handy as your whole house of cards would come tumbling down if some smartarse proved otherwise, which also explains why it was nesseccary to feed him or her to the lions or burn them at a stake, ostensibly to please the gods,but really to keep the whole lucrative scam running. Much like Destiny Church, where the destiny is as much wealth as the Tamakis can accumulate.
We shall all march lockstep, and anyone who deviates from that march shall be abandoned on the roadside. Signed, certain scientists that are very very woke, and very very ugly.
Some folks here commented on this yesterday, but it's worth noting some features of the story they didn't mention:
So the first feature worth noting is that collaboration between four different interest groups secured the purchase. This strikes me as a significant victory for Green consensus decision-making.
Never met him, but he was Shadbolt's sidekick during the Waitemata City mayoralty years, before they had a falling out.
So we'll have to wait & see. Looks like it has the potential to be a model of co-governance. Hope they all succeed with that.
Another great reason to get vaccinated!
And why do we have 300 police guarding a boarder that is in dispute of validity as months have passed to get vaccinated? The people travelling there most likely are. What an illogical argument. And yet there are no additional resources to find out who killed, maimed others, shootings, stabbings, robberies and assaults, family violence, children murdered once more in the news.
And now we hear that it is racist to be aghast by that demand. ? What!? Are you serious?
The people I know and meet are increasingly shifting from great! to indifferent and now getting seriously beefed with all the incompetence displayed. The next election will show the discontent very clearly. Politically, you can ignore a large majority for some time but not all of the time.
And why are cops out trying to catch speeding cars? Most people travelling likely are not.
And why are they following up on burglaries when they need to be following up on those killed, maimed, shootings, stabbings, robberies and assaults, family violence and children murdered?
The people I know and meet are increasingly pissed off that cops have to do things like manning borders because people can't be trusted to do the right thing. People I know pleased that cops are trying to prevent such arrogant, ignorant arseholes risking lives and livelihoods of everyone in the country.
It is the people north of Auckland who haven't found it necessary to protect their people and get vaccinated. The question remains, will this border remain indefinitely like a hmmmm separate state?
Jacinda 1, what's his name (also known as Leader #4 – or is it 5) 0
Just listened to question time – Luxon not nimble on his feet. Jacinda cut the ground from under him with her first reply, but he persisted with the same line for about 4 more supplementaries.
Just to expand in case readers are not aware of what happened:
Luxon asked why the govt. was so slow providing more ICU beds.
Jacinda replied that always the govt. policy was to avoid overwhelming the hospital system, and that the highest number of ICU beds in use has been 11.
Luxon persisted in asking why the govt. has not increased ICU beds.
The man's a plonker.
Plus, Seymour stepped in to steal his thunder at one point.
just because the highest number of beds used is 11 does not mean it will stay that way.
so his question, after almost two years into the plague is fair and warranted.
My questions would be:
Why is it that Rotorua has 6 beds, but can only staff 4?
Why is it that ICU nurses have been dispatched from elsewhere to make up for Akls Shortfall?
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/126260217/covid19-sending-icu-nurses-to-auckland-will-put-pressure-on-other-regions–union
but yeah, i get it. He must be daft to not believe the good words put to him.
Here is someone else pontificating about hte state of ICU beds and more importantly the people that man/women these beds 24 hour a day – at least two if they work 12 hour shifts, or 3 if they work 8 hour shifts.
https://journal.nzma.org.nz/journal-articles/new-zealands-staffed-icu-bed-capacity-and-covid-19-surge-capacity
I guess the NZ Medical Journal is also staffed with many many plonkers.
Now if someone had asked what the max number of ICU beds used during this crisis were, her answer would have made perfect sense, but considering that the answer was 'why not more beds – and staff as the beds themselves are of no use without staff – well, one can say that her answer was lacking in substance, but was a good example of talking about something else altogether, while conveniently ignoring the questions as a good PR person would do.
The man's a plonker because he persisted with his line of questions about why there has been no increase in the number of ICU beds?
Those are questions that should and need to be asked.
I have no idea why you would think they are plonker questions.
Jacinda pointed out that ICU beds had a capacity of 500 if needed, but the maximum in use up until now had been 11. Yet he wasn't quick enough to change his line of questioning. To my mind, that makes him a plonker, or perhaps a plodder.
I think it's safe here, to say, "plonker".
🙂
The premise of her answer is we have more than enough ICU beds. Anyone who accepts that is a plonker.
The premise of her answer is not that we have enough ICU beds. We have 500 ICU beds available. Each one of those 500 beds requires five intensive care nurses specialising in ICU Covid patients. That is a total of 2,500 Covid intensive care nurses. Each one of those nurses required specific training in Covid care, and it takes a long time for them to reach the required standard for ICU Covid care.
The strategy – to prevent a surge in numbers of ICU Covid patients – has been successful to date. The government is to be congratulated on achieving that goal and we hope they are able to continue to achieve it regardless what Covid throws our way.
To my way of thinking the Opposition parties are acting in an irresponsible and reckless manner by attempting to distort the reality purely for personal political gain. They are to be rebuked for using their powers to question the handling of the pandemic in an underhand and dishonest way.
Sir Christopher Luxon (which I'm sure is his ultimate ambition) has just proven he is no better than most of his party's predecessors.
Agreed. An important question – what is the correct number of ICU beds, fully staffed. Should this be enough to cope with worst case scenarios? or some number below that. What number then? Should the health system always carry (at cost) those numbers forever into the future?
I keep reading that hospitals have been in crisis with ICU beds all full.
Or was just in the 'wishful thinking' things I've seen on line?
Sort of strange to consider that the fascist state dictates people wear seatbelts. That might prevent ICU beds being full of crash victims so that those beds could be used by victims of the fascist state who didn't follow dictates about covid.
I don't think his (Luxon’s) response was that of a plonker but of a plodder.
The questions had a purpose, somewhere, but where? Presumably there was a 'gotcha' or point behind them but it never got to see the light of day
Yes. Nice incompetent start by both Luxon and Bridges, bodes well for yet another new look opposition leadership before to long. Popcorn must be doing a roaring trade of late.
I really need to step away from the interweb ..just now on my Facebook..
Here's an idea ..actually deliver on the vague electioneering promises of Change ("lets do this.".) ….and actually deliver ..or at least head in the direction of …affordable secure housing, an economy with secure jobs with livable wages, a good preemptive Health care system including access to addiction services, and Mental health care, affordable pathways to higher education, a rehabilitative Justice system (rather than excellent box ticking) …then lets talk about elimination of violence ..because otherwise its just never going to happen (rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic etc etc).
Robbie Nicol talks about the communication/action dichotomy:
Thanks arkie, great link.
A couple of great lines: 'less effective than a comedy monologue behind a paywall'
This (about halfway through) was a lol comment for me – couldn't watch any more.
The broad church of 'the Left' is inclined to debate and castigate itself in public – no bad thing, but it can complicate efforts to slow down the 'Money is God' Tories.
Still waiting – hope it’s just a matter of good things taking time.
Yeah, nah. A woke millennial goes off on an unbalanced rant. Highlights all of Ardern's mistakes and none of her successes. The important thing in leadership is setting a direction, and the good ship Aotearoa is slowly turning left.
Nicol is blissfully unaware of the messy realities of politics and the need to make the occasional compromise.
Just a bit too nasty for my taste.
You can’t turn left when your steering wheel doesn’t go past the centre. The Labour party is wedded to status quo ante capitalism, this is evidential.
Also who is impressed by those claiming the need to compromise while holding all the levers of power? Pointing this out is hardly nasty.
The larger and more important point is that while leadership is needed, politicians and politics in general, requires us to continually reiterate our desires and provide the necessary pressure to drive the actions we want to see. It is participatory. And that requires a society that doesn’t see itself as a collection of self-interested individuals.
The final message in the video is to encourage people to join organisations they care about, terrible, youthful, woke and nasty thing to do. /s
Hey Arkie. Thanks for the intro. Absolutely wonderful satire. I found it intelligent and very positive. Went down the rabbit whole and found some of his older stuff too. You can learn a lot from him, get a laugh and end up feeling good in spite of all the shit we get subjected to. Absolutely emphasises the need to abandon individualism and embrace the collective. This message comes through in all his work that I looked at. Thankyou!
The message is important.
Organise, get off social media and put your shoulder to a wheel.
I refute robs assertion of overwhelming compromise, especially in this administration at this time.
As Nicol alludes to we are the problem. Ardern will move if pressure comes to bear. But we are too busy, individually with the current outrage- the unvaxxed, gangs, Luxon's lack of hair and political chops.
Plus Nicol's line 'I expect the leader of Labour to not devote her life to protect the owners of capital'. Skewering.
Well she gave herself a 25 year timeline, by then she is probably hoping that anyone has forgotten that she was supposedly to earn her money.
But hey, she did reclaim the C-word. So that is a success. Surely?
Watched question time at Parliament this afternoon. Oh deary me, it was a no contest. Jacinda without even trying, outshone Luxon. While I realise it was his first time facing the PM in the House, his inexperience as an MP, let alone a party leader was glaringly obvious. Robertson also gave Bridges what for as well during their financial debate.
If Luxon does a few repeat performances before Parliament finishes for the year, can we expect a resignation to be forthcoming in the near future from the new National leader? Before or after Christmas anyone?
No – I think they’ve run out of options for new leaders. They’ll likely stop at Luxon.
He seems sufficiently adaptable /malleable to be instructed by his backers in the party (primarily Sir John, & maybe the party hierarchy) to try out various public personas & policy positions until they find a formula that seems to score well enuf in the polls.
If he isn’t gaining them any ground by mid nextbyear maybe they’d look again at, say, Willis, as potential leader material – but it’d be a major risk to their credibility as a major party to dump yet another leader when they have such a small pool of potential leadership contenders with genuine smarts, & when yet another leader change just might produce no improvement at all in their voter credibility & polling fortunes.
In summary, I think they’ll stick with Luxon as long as he doesn’t screw up big time & have to be dumped.