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Open mike 08/01/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, January 8th, 2022 - 163 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

163 comments on “Open mike 08/01/2022 ”

  1. Dennis Frank 1

    Wokeism has become a major political trend:

    In the United Kingdom, woke is used to "describe anything that could previously [be] described as 'politically correct,'" Evan Smith, a visiting fellow at Australia's Flinders University and author of "No Platform: A History of Anti-Fascism and the Limits of Free Speech," told CNN. The term is "used to describe a broad range of ideas [and] movements concerned with social justice," including anti-racism, intersectional feminism, trans rights and critical histories of the British empire, he said.

    Many in the French establishment view "woke" as a heinous US import of theories on race, post-colonialism and gender, which they say pose a risk to French values and identity, Samuel Hayat, a politics research fellow at French National Center for Scientific Research (CNRS), told CNN.

    In May, Elizabeth Moreno, French President Emmanuel Macron's party diversity minister, told Bloomberg that "woke culture is something very dangerous, and we shouldn't bring it to France."

    As Franco-American relations plunged to new lows this fall over a security deal the US forged in secret with the UK and Australia, French Education Minister Jean-Michel Blanquer opened a think tank to uphold French values against what he described as "wokeism."

    Speaking to France's Le Monde newspaper about his think tank, Blanquer said "wokeism" is an ideology that "fragments and divides, and has conquered certain political, media and academic circles." He added that the backlash to "wokeism" helped "bring Donald Trump to power; France and its youth must escape this."

    Britain's anti-woke crusade sometimes borders on the farcical — from a "woke watch" segment on GB News, a British television news channel critics say was set up to find an audience amid the culture wars, to a lawmaker bemoaning that civil servants are still "woke-ing from home."

    Antiwokeism is an ugly word, so we could go with sleepism. Binary politics being our structural norm, media must focus on both loony extremes in order to ignore the majority of folk who are either amused or disgusted by both.

    This banality of binary media discourse is alienating typical mainstreamers…

    Even the 73-year-old grandson of Winston Churchill, Nicholas Soames, has heard enough, calling the furor over the Churchill Trust "so sad and so pathetic" in an interview with the Times. "Apparently anyone who modernizes anything or does anything to remotely bring it up to date is 'woke.'" he said. "It's absolute b****cks."

    Amazing how the Times is now so terrified of wokesters that they are censoring themselves willingly! Bollocks is now verboten. 🙄


    • Corey Humm 1.1

      As an LGBT+ from a mixed race poor family I've always seen "woke " politics for what it is : keeping the poor majority bickering over identity issues so they don't unite over economic issues.

      There's a reason corporations embraced social politics and the rainbow dollar after the great recession and it has nothing to do with social progress and everything to do with divide and conquer.

      They don't want a more equal society economically they just want a more diverse 1%.

      It is militant neoliberalism. The biggest advocates for woke culture are upper middle to rich. They work in media, academia, sports entertainment and politics. People who have no concept of the idea of class because if they did they'd realize they themselves are the oppressors.

      You don't hear them talk about class or economic justice you hear them talk about "privilege and oppression and colonialism" while they go and gentrify poor peoples neighborhoods (happening now in NZ rich kids who can't afford houses in the nice suburbs are pricing people out of the hood)

      You'll hear them talk about slavery while wearing clothes and using devices made in sweat shops and if you bring this up they say it's a straw man and there's nothing that can be done (modern day slavery is too hard to do anything about) they'll boycott an unwoke fastfood chain but go spend up big on Nike and it's slave made products cos some woke footballer is sponsored by them.

      It's hypocrisy. It is a heinous American important.

      Why are Maori and brown people more likely to have ill health and unstable housing conditions? Cos they are more likely to be poor and getting sick and homeless is a symptom of being poor and guess what there's more poor white people than Maori people and instead of helping them all with universal policies that address the root courses and problems of poverty the modern left addresses the symptoms and keeps the status quo unchecked by having different factions of poor people waring with each other based off their sex gender race sexuality rather than having class solidarity.

      The poor don't need safe spaces they need homes and food.

      Without economic justice there can be no social justice and woke politics ignores economic justice for individualistic ideas.

      A poor brown person has more in common with a poor white person than a rich brown person and vice versa.

      And another thing … Poor people are more likely in my experience to be socially conservative on a lot of issues and be the biggest resistors to woke culture but economically the most progressive, this woke identity based outrage politics will and is turning the very people the left exist to represent off the left and will only end badly for the left.

      Economic justice is the best form of social justice if everyone's doing well there's noone for right demagogues to manipulate and say "this is why you're suffering"

      Without economic justice there can be no social justice and poor people are quite sick of hearing about how privileged they are rich people.

      • Dennis Frank 1.1.1

        Thanks for the feedback Corey. I agree with your point around economic justice. I wrote lengthy contributions to the original economic policy working group in the Green Party on that basis 30 years ago. I also agree that the left ought to focus more on that dimension, and that wokeism is seriously problematic for the left currently.

      • Patricia Bremner 1.1.2

        Corey, that is right on so many levels.

        I remember when a couple of Real estate sneaks prowled round a social and Maori Affairs suburb, offering people more money than they could hope to earn in two lifetimes.

        Then painting tidying and marketting rimu etc to get twice the price for places rented back to said former owners

        A bloody rort. Now we have all the socio economic ills from that, but it gets blamed on the symptoms not the cause. Greed Bloody greed.

      • Bill 1.1.3

        Beautiful comment. A joy to read.

  2. bwaghorn 2

    Climate change burnout!

    Not claiming to do much personally, as I've always thought change has to come from our leaders, but I definitely get down if I consider the future to much.

    • Dennis Frank 2.1

      Yeah, good story. Makes the point that community-building is essential if folks want to become resilient.

      Association of Counsellors president Christine Macfarlane said people often internalised the magnitude of issues surrounding climate change, leading to a sense of hopelessness.

      “There’s an expectation of ‘myself’ internally, but also externally, that you continue on this road… It feels like ‘if I stop or let go, then who's going to pick it up?’ So that over responsibility can keep people going and going,” Macfarlane said. She saw a lack of community support, when “interconnection with others” was vital to making a difference.

      Berentson-Shaw said people often had a misconception that others did not care about climate change, but her research showed “people do care, they just don’t know what to do”.

      Well that just points to the essential function of networkers in community-building. If these isolated enterprising youngsters were part of a network of likeminded others they wouldn't feel so alone. You get reinforced by group discussions.

      • Gezza 2.1.1

        Agreed. From the article…

        Co-director of the Workshop Jess Berentson-Shaw believes individually focused action and a sense of individual responsibility is the biggest downfall of climate change action.

        Predominantly rooted in Western thinking, Berentson-Shaw says we have a “very individualised way of thinking about climate change, so we tend to think first as individuals and second as collectives”, even though it is clear it is a “collective problem”.

        Berentson-Shaw said individual action was “a good thing” but it was important not to forgetthose with power had the ability to initiate action on a larger scale.

        “You can do so much and try so hard and still feel like it’s not enough because the rhetoric and the mindsets around this being an individual problem and solution are so strong.”

        Research showed seeing action at a local body, national, or global scale, gave people more hope and acted as a key for engagement.

        What these people getting burned out running their individual green self-sustaining gardens & businesses apparently lack is the organisational skills to form a significantly sized local & national collective & to get their messages out.

        I wonder, if they can’t develop a group between themselves with those necessary skills, whether they could plug in to existing organisations – like the Green Party, or Greenpeace – and try and use their existing organisational & communication frameworks?

        • Dennis Frank

          Seems to me the Green movement got too dispersed over the past half-century. As a result there's somewhat of a silo effect now embedded. Similar (but not as bad) as the one afflicting acadaemia.

          My experience with the GP produced the impression that members with practical skills were the exception rather than the rule. There's a generational difference too inasmuch as permaculture is hands-on design towards problem-solving whereas politics is a combination of ideology & team sports (group identity).

          Older generations default to protest – I'm happy to give these youngsters credit for being more proactive & constructive. Protest movements usually degenerate into grandstanding & sloganeering. Greenpeace can sometimes get specific results from targeting protests but often I see no useful outcome from their endeavour. The EDS seems more effective re suitable results of campaigns.

          My experience with networking taught me that it's a demanding chore unless you're born motivated to do it – often with skills & aptitudes to suit. Just another reason to take spiritual karma seriously! angel

  3. Dennis Frank 3

    Here's a good in-depth retrospective on the Deepwater Horizon explosion 12 years ago: https://www.theguardian.com/news/2022/jan/06/life-after-deepwater-horizon-the-hidden-toll-of-surviving-disaster-on-an-oil-rig

    The immediate cause of the blast on the Deepwater Horizon was a bubble of methane gas that floated up through the drill column, most likely because of a breach in the cement casing that enclosed it, and spread across the deck before igniting into a deadly fireball.

    Although they rarely made the news, oil spills have continued to take place with distressing regularity in the decade since the Deepwater blowout – in 2018 alone, there were 137, according to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. Fatalities are also still common. “From 2008 to 2017, roughly the same number of oilfield workers were killed on the job as US troops in Afghanistan,” notes Michael Patrick F Smith, who worked on an oilfield in North Dakota during the fracking boom.

    The writer explores the effect on one of the worker survivors, Stephen Stone, a nature-lover…

    Since the explosion, he’d been unable to hold down a job. He avoided social gatherings. He also had trouble sleeping. The explosion on the rig had happened at night, collapsing the stairwell above the room in which Stephen had fallen asleep after completing a work shift. The blast startled him awake and sent him racing into the change room, where he slipped on a pair of fire-retardant coveralls and fumbled his way toward the deck, at which point he saw that the entire rig was smouldering and heard the panicked screams of his co-workers. It was an experience he now feared reliving every time he shut his eyes, Sara had come to realise. “The way I understand it is, he’s constantly preparing for that wake-up,” she said.

    In the days that followed, I visited Stephen and Sara several times in their apartment, a two-storey dwelling in a complex of look-alike grey bungalows. Much of the time, Stephen sat on a couch in the living room, sipping black coffee from a green mug and, every few minutes, taking another toke of medical marijuana, which a psychiatrist had prescribed to quell his anxiety. The same psychiatrist had diagnosed him with PTSD.

    “A path to a life otherwise out of reach” was the phrase that a team of reporters from the New York Times used to describe how the crew members on the Deepwater Horizon viewed their jobs. If environmentalists had little sympathy for the workers who took these jobs while ignoring the “dirty facts” about the fossil fuel industry – water pollution, land degradation, the discharge of the majority of the US’s carbon emissions – who, really, could blame them? These dirty facts were real, Stephen acknowledged.

    A faustian bargain is what you get when poor, and you grab a job opportunity in the oil industry. The Greenies went for the pelicans covered with oil. Ignored the human casualties. But symbolism gets leverage on the media, you see, so political results get precipitated that way. Green prejudice against industry workers happens.

  4. Puckish Rogue 4

    Pop culture breakdown: Dr Who

    To see how far Dr Who has fallen you can check out the overall viewership here:


    To go into it a little further though, the UK population in 2007 was 61 million, a Dr Who special got 13 million viewers


    The UK population in 2021 was 68 million, a Dr Who special got 3.21 million viewers:


    Since Chris Chibnall took over the series has gone from being family viewing to twitter bait woke garbage

    Can Russell T Davies return save Dr Who, will he retcon the storyline:


    Sony have done well lately (Spiderman made more than the last three Disney Marvel movies combined) so will they let Russell do his thing?


    Or is this a fixed point in time?

    • Dennis Frank 4.1

      Looks like I caught the tail end of the first season in August 1964. Addicted for a few years then found better things to do. Noticed the string of degenerate retards they used after the first one (who seemed suitable) though… sad

      • Puckish Rogue 4.1.1

        Christopher Eccleston is still the best doctor, a few emotional problems but he nailed the performance, in my always humble opinion

        • Dennis Frank

          Late '80s so I wouldn't have seen him. I stopped watching tv for entertainment end of '73 (then was forced to make an exception of MASH when it began in the new year following). The show was ultra spooky when I first saw it. Think it began to trend towards light entertainment in the '70s?

        • Hanswurst

          The series he was in was a bit shite, though (as was the high-rating Series 4). It's much, much better nowadays, and it doesn't need to be a smash hit (what non-soap programme is after 15 years?). It's also worth noting that viewership of all television is down, and Doctor Who is still a top 10 to 20 programme.

        • RedLogix

          Yeah Eccleston was particularly good – but honestly most of them carried the role pretty damned well. Each brought something fresh to the Jungian archetype that is the Doctor:

          The Magician

          • Motto: I make things happen.
          • Core desire: understanding the fundamental laws of the universe
          • Goal: to make dreams come true
          • Greatest fear: unintended negative consequences
          • Strategy: develop a vision and live by it
          • Weakness: becoming manipulative
          • Talent: finding win-win solutions
          • The Magician is also known as:The visionary, catalyst, inventor, charismatic leader, shaman, healer, medicine man.
        • Blade

          I didn't realise the present Dr Who is a sheila. How can a sheila be a Time Lord?

          Wouldn't surprise me if the Darleks are now multi gender… and the Cybermen run a galactical meditation retreat.

          What the hell is Sci Fi coming to? I'm down to watching repeat viewings of Metropolis. And the occasional tv cult classic UFO.

    • Corey Humm 4.2

      Erasing the first doctor was just uggggggggggghhhh

      I feel like the actress who played the female doctor could have been very good with the right material.

      Why do legacy franchises keep hiring non fans to make creative decisions for franchises they hate?

      It doesn't seem like good business decisions to make an IP because it has a built in fan base and then talk down to an alienate the fan base in favor of non existent new fan base.

      Honestly I also hate when people take over these nostalgia driven IP's only to make dark uncreative content that lectures about how nostalgia driven art is toxic , it's like WELL WHY ARE YOU MAKING A NOSTALGIA BASED IP IF YOU HATE IPS AND NOSTALGIA.

      Stop giving people who hate a franchise the reigns of said franchise.

      Rant over lol

    • bwaghorn 4.3

      They lost me when I saw my first dialec, the most unbelievable baddy ever, a rolling dustbin with a broom sticking out of it, oooooh scary.

      • joe90 4.3.1

        Damn Daleks had a nine year old me and siblings cowering behind the sofa.

      • Patricia Bremner 4.3.2

        devil it was the voice……….

      • Dennis Frank 4.3.3

        Waggers, you are one macho dude! Have you considered making a bid for the National Party leadership? You'd give them a real good rev up I reckon. wink

        So how old were you when you first saw the dalek? Already riding a motorbike? Yeah, that would explain it…

        • bwaghorn

          I've been called lots of things but never macho, got taken to jaws by my siblings when I was 7 ish that scared me for life, then watching America werewolf in London really fucked me up as a 11 year old ,was in my 20s before I could handle walking in the dark .

          Unfortunately I have not an ounce of cunning and feel guilty for the littlest white lie, so national party leadership is out.

          • Dennis Frank

            Okay, if you were 7 when Jaws came out then you never saw the original daleks in the original cultural ambience. I was turning 15 when I did & they scared me. Mind you, I was a sensitive kid like you. Watching a Hitchcock movie (Psycho?) likewise. Never took to the horrors at all…

  5. Ed1 5

    I recently looked at

    https://www.nzta.govt.nz/projects/wellington-northern-corridor/transmission-gully-motorway/ to find out about the project, and under about the project/public_private_partnership/ is this:

    "A PPP is a long-term contract between the public and private sectors covering the financing, construction and operation of public infrastructure and services. The motorway will remain a public asset – it is never owned by the PPP.

    PPPs allow large and complex projects to benefit from private sector innovation and funding which can increase certainty of delivery and drive better value-for-money. There are also savings to be had on all aspects of the project – design, build, maintenance and operational management.

    PPPs are typically used for large-scale infrastructure projects where risks can be effectively identified and transferred to the private sector. Waka Kotahi aims to use successful ideas and innovations that come out of the Transmission Gully motorway PPP across other motorway projects and the wider transport network."

    I suggest that the first paragraph is reasonable, the second marginal as regards better value-for-money, and the third should be deleted – I do not believe that should ever be consistent with policy for any responsible New Zealand Government.

    • pat 5.1

      I'd suggest the main reason for PPPs is the (falsely) perceived ability to limit Government debt for credit rating purposes and shift the cost to current account…..a ruse that fools no one anymore, if it ever did.

    • Ad 5.2

      The Treasury gateway and post-completion Value For Money reports will be used to carefully constrain their future use.

      SH1 Northern Gateway PPP is going better.

      But AK Light rail procurement at $12b+ will turn Transmission Gully into a miniature game.

      Will Treasury+DPMC+MOT+NZTA show real applied learning from them both?

      Not a lot of industry confidence in them.

      A big year for very big public money.

    • Blazer 5.3

      ' where risks can be effectively identified and transferred to the private sector. '

      Too funny….as if the private sector would cop losses when they partner Govt!sad

  6. pat 6

    "Maybe our political classes agree with the Productivity Commission, that we should import those with the skills our economy needs (predominantly in science), and our children can look after the tourists."


    Or sell/rent houses to each other….that'll work, eh.

    • Sabine 6.1

      Or move overseas for better income, better jobs, a larger and more diverse pool of jobs, or further studies, and and and ….and then come back to NZ.

      Or is it considered rude to point out that the Kiwis that left NZ for overseas adventures, further study and professional choices and opportunities could equally be considered the low wage/lower waged migrants that costs in the countries they migrate too? Because in many case they do, one could argue.

    • Stephen Doyle 6.2

      And the solution is…?

      • Sabine 6.2.1

        Let them pick fruit?

      • pat 6.2.2

        The solution to poor educational outcomes you mean?…or the wider question of economic performance (acknowledging the link)?

        • Stephen Doyle

          Poor educational outcomes. Especially maths and science.

          For example, The Numeracy Project was foisted on schools by the Ministry. Total fucking disaster.

          • pat

            Pedagogy is not my field but there is no doubt a wealth of research that can be drawn on…my instinct is that the commodification of education lies at the heart of the issue.

            We have altered the purpose of our education system since the 80s reforms as a feeder for the tertiary (especially universities) sector to enable (debt fuelled) income streams so as to create an 'industry'.

            Education is not (or at least shouldnt be) an industry but that is what it has become…..and all we have done is increased our base costs and reduced the value of the end 'product'.

            • arkie

              Think you're on the money here pat.

              Another related issue is the decline of apprenticeships, on the job training and career development within an organisation.

            • Stephen D

              I can only talk from the PoV of a teacher of 11 year olds (Year 7.)

              There are a couple of real weaknesses in the system that children go through.

              The support for teachers to help teach those students that are neuro diverse, or behavourially challenged are pretty much non existent, despite what the ministry might say. By the time they get to leave primary school, a lot of severely negative emotions are already in place. The fix?? Many more RTLBs, teacher aides and professional development.

              In terms of knowledge and skills, especially in maths, yes there is a place for rote learning. You can have all the strategies for part whole thinking. But if you don't know your times-tables, it impossible to do fractions, decimals or percentages.

              • pat

                I sympathise…one of my children is a primary teacher and the level of 'behaviourally challenged' students (not to mention parents) even in a mid decile school is scary….and the almost complete dearth of funding for TA and other support.

                It isn't surprising that the class as a whole has less ability to learn even if the curriculum and methodology was as good as it could be.

            • Stuart Munro

              With you on that.

              The beneficial qualities of universities are imho, emergent from the basic knowledge structures of the various disciplines, and not to be mistaken for the subject conventions themselves.

              The free spirit of enquiry does not prosper with the meter running, nor with breathless post-marxist predators waiting to pounce with accusations of illiberal beliefs.

              What we have now, the diploma mills, are polytechs – and bad ones.

          • Pete

            The 2018 PISA results come out and there is alarm and disbelief about the trends in mathematics for our kids.

            A generation raised through The Numeracy Project and National Standards, both the 'be-all-and-end-all" magic paths to nirvana.

          • Subliminal

            Yes. Another two years of learning to multiply or add and subtract at years 9 and 10 was always a pretty silly idea. At some point you just have to hand out the calculators and carry on or you'll never get to the exciting stuff. Who needs the drudgery of multiplication and division?

      • arkie 6.2.3

        That really is the question.

        To my mind a significant problem that has ramifications across society is the perceived disconnect between high academic achievement and eventual income. Many of the youth today have seen the generation before them (Millennials) become the most highly educated – but also the worst paid. This has had an effect on what they intend to study, if they intend to at all. Their focus has been significantly narrowed by climate change.

        • Pete

          So we want high academic achievement but we want (expect?) those achievers to stay here and contribute. But among other reasons for wanting to go, pay here is seen to be low.

          And we want high academic achievement but we want people to pick fruit?

          • arkie

            It's a muddle alright.

            As the cited piece points out: The real issues are very hard and there is no quick fix.

          • pat

            'Pay' (reward) is relative…..the ratio between that reward and the expense of living is the critical factor….sadly we've buggered that up as well.

            There are many occupations now that require tertiary qualifications for little good reason ….all this does is increase the base costs (and load individuals with unnecessary debt) and remove valuable labour from the workforce for a period of years.

          • Sabine

            Maybe really the issue is that we have an oversupply of people with degrees in Studentloans but no real life skills and no need in this current economy or in the past economy for their degree.

            How many people with a dubious degrees does this country need, and just how much pay should these people demand if compared to Nurses, Janitors, Custodial Staff, Cooks etc that staff a major Hospital for example. And does society owes them a job, or was it their decision to study what they studied and now they have to find a job according to their skill set and degree – like everyone else.

            I have done a lot of jobs in my lifetime, some really badly paid, some really really well paid, and they all served their purpose at the time. Fruit Picking, working in the Hospitality Sector or the Care Sector are all needed Jobs in our society, maybe we need to start giving them a bit more love not only in form of weekly pay but also in terms of status with in our society. There are worse jobs out there.

            The low wage worker stacking shelfs from today might be your doctor in the future, and their current job might just work really well with their studies.

            And lastly, maybe we need to consider promoting apprenticeships and other form of education rather then just insist in the 'university' 'debt for life' model.

            • pat

              Those are the end results….but as the Stuff piece bemoans it has changed our priorities at the primary and secondary education level creating a declining capability of those moving through it.

              And yes, some of that decline can be directly related to socio-economic factors but I'd suggest not all or even perhaps most…the incentives for all concerned have been wrong for a long time, and as Arkie noted there is no quick fix…we almost have to start again.

              • Sabine

                Has been going on for a long time and we have had these discussions previously


                What our issue is now is that in this society we have lost a good amount of jobs, some low wage, some average and some high, for pretty much the next decade – be that hospitality, tourism, travel, business travel etc. There were a lot of jobs associated with. gone. pooft. Even if Covid now fizzles out and we can all breathe again, these jobs are gone. Take into account climate change – the fact that we are teh dumbest species on this planet – over mechanisation of everything, and our inability to put value where value actually sits – i.e. the Nurse, the Janitor, the teacher, the tech, the shelf stacker in the supermarket and we are in deep trouble.

                Have a talk to the young ones and talk them into learning trades. We need to learn how to build shit, invent stuff, and yes, not only grow food but also know how to cook it.

                The idea that we can 'income raise' us out of a low wage society without reducing cost of living is in itself preposterous. Even a 5 dollar increase next year on the minimum wage would not offset the expected anual rent increase of 50 NZD per week plus everything else.

                Change needs to come from the other end, reduced cost of living, increasing training in the sectors that are needing of staff, incentives by the state to foster 'growth' in regions that are underserved rather tehn expect the next generation to move to AKl for shit wages and living conditions.

      • Ad 6.2.4

        Go to engineering school and start off at $100k.

        • pat

          I know a few recent engineering graduates who would love to be on 100K….and wouldnt mind 50k less debt either.

        • arkie

          If you are male.

          women are under-represented at all levels in the engineering profession. Not only that, but the gender pay gap in the engineering industry is higher than the national average.

          • RedLogix

            Funny how there are no programs for 'women in sewerage maintenance' or 'men in teaching' though.

            • arkie

              Celebrating men in teaching.

              Sewerage maintenance surely comes under mechanical engineering.

              Not sure what your point is.

              • RedLogix

                So how influential has this 'Celebrating Men in Teaching' article compared to say the massive amount of energy put into attracting women into STEM careers over the past two decades?

                And why is it that it's only the well paid, comfortable and low risk professions that men typically do that are targeted for these of 'equality' programs.

                From my own experience across a number of engineering workplaces around 5 – 25% of all technical staff are female these days. I've worked with a number and reported to one. They've all been very capable, exceptionally so in two instances I can think of, and I've asked one to be my reference recently. My last project the Senior Process Engineer (arguably the most important role in the place) was a woman and bloody excellent – I'd happily work with her again anytime.

                But highly paid senior level engineering roles can be very demanding and highly responsible and not everyone gets to the top. And in general more women choose not to make the sacrifices necessary to get there, reasonably preferring a saner work life balance, which means if you calculate 'gender pay gap' over 'whole of work life' there will always be a difference.

                The reality is that women are typically more interested in people oriented roles and men are more engaged with making 'things' work – engineering being the most obvious example. Males and females are not different only from the neck down.

                • Sabine

                  Can you elaborate on that 'choose' not to make the sacrifices? Which sacrifices are they not choosing to make that males do? We are talking Non Males and Males here, right?

                  The reality is? Or is it that we are still and even more so today shove bullshit stereo types down the throats of non males, and even worse today may even tell a non male they are male for liking trucks?

                  good lord i remember days were non males could not be mechanics because they could not be accomodated with a 'sexed' toilet. I.e. a loo for women. Lol, we have come full effn circle here, have'nt we?

                  • RedLogix

                    Or is it that we are still and even more so today shove bullshit stereo types down the throats of non males

                    I don't know how that stacks up against at least 40 years of concerted effort to encourage women into STEM careers. There is no 'women cannot be mechanics because we don't have the loos' anymore. I work in this field and it's you that needs to lose the tired stereotype of my profession.

                    • Sabine

                      And before that last 40 years were several centuries of treating non males as chattel that does not need education or only enough to run a household, and they could/should not drive, nor fly planes, nor be soldiers, nor own property, nor own bank accounts, and so on and so forth. So maybe you just need to show a bit of patience or wait for enough Transwomen to bring some equity to your industry. Cause we all know that there is no difference between the one or the other.

                      But nevertheless, please elaborate on the sacrifices that non males choose to not make that their male counterparts make. Seriously I would like to know, and considering that you typed that you must know what sacrifices they are.

                    • RedLogix

                      And before that last 40 years were several centuries of treating non males as chattel that does not need education or only enough to run a household, and they could/should not drive, nor fly planes, nor be soldiers, nor own property, nor own bank accounts, and so on and so forth.

                      This did vary a fair bit across history – there are plenty of historic examples of women in the elite classes playing prominent roles in business and politics.

                      But for the most part the large majority of ordinary pre-industrial people lived in extremely difficult circumstances. Most jobs outside of the household were highly physical and often dangerous, and it was the role of the biologically disposable males to work in the fields, the mines, the slave galleys, the armies, the whole range of laborious, back breaking and often brutal work necessary to feed and protect their societies.

                      Social norms that confined women to the household were largely an evolved pragmatic response to protect the more physically vulnerable sex from this reality.

                      It's was only after the industrial revolution as workplaces gradually become safer, less physically demanding and more appealing that these social norms started to change.

                  • arkie

                    good lord i remember days were non males could not be mechanics because they could not be accomodated

                    I know directly that this ‘difficulty’ in providing facilities is still ongoing within that industry. Despite the benefits of programmes to get women into the field, at 5-25% they are expected to be exceptional, to trailblaze, while they not considered when the needs of the role are defined by employers. It’s systemic.

                    • RedLogix

                      Part of the problem here is that the word 'engineering' covers an incredibly wide range of occupations. I haven't seen anything like that in the professional settings that your original EngineeringNZ reference would be talking about.

                      Quite the opposite in fact.

                    • arkie

                      As a man, who is in a senior role, I can understand why you haven’t seen it, no judgement. Everyone must start somewhere with the field of engineering and some are most interested in the practical aspects as opposed to the design side; people have to actually physically repair and maintain these systems, if you remember. There are organisations other than EngineeringNZ that are working to encourage women into the practical engineering certificate programmes too.

                    • RedLogix

                      Wherever I've gone in both Australia and quite a number of other countries over the past decade – there have been toilets and facilities for both sexes. Maybe NZ is still quite backward in this respect.

                    • arkie

                      You are quite possibly right. However I have seen at least a couple of very large multinationals’ sites that hadn’t considered the need for separate facilities for donning and doffing.

          • higherstandard

            Women qualifying as engineers in NZ can walk into jobs very easily as their is a large amount of companies looking to improve their M/F ratios.

            • arkie

              While that may be true I am aware of the experiences of those in those jobs and the industry still needs improvement. Some very large companies aren't as progressive when it comes to the actual working environment. And it's quite hard to not seem 'difficult' when you have to advocate for women in the industry every time your needs have been overlooked.

        • higherstandard

          Engineering students very very rarely start on 100k straight out of uni in NZ – their salaries do increase quite rapidly with experience though and they can ear very good salaries offshore (two family members qualified as engineers ex Auckland Uni during the last 5 years.)

        • Stuart Munro

          My nephew took that route – top in his course – took him two years to get a fulltime job, and five to get one where his skills are valued.

          Too many cheap imports available – and too many foreign HR folk who won't hire kiwis.

      • Foreign waka 6.2.5

        For a starter, accepting that standards in education are linked to success later in life and have highly educated teachers in classes instead of teacher aides that came from the very system that has brought these results. We are talking about 90 countries and NZ is the very bottom rank in basic literature and mathematics. That should be a huge wakeup call. Unless… it is on purpose to make this country a dumbed down paradise for the mega rich buying property everywhere. Of cause the least you know the easier you can be manipulated. Add to it and give the divide between the races a good whack (we see already that the "whites" are blamed for everything under the sun, South Africa emanated?). The media has a field day supporting that notion by reporting on issues of race, fear and division because it sells. Wakey wakey….

        • Stuart Munro

          Unless… it is on purpose to make this country a dumbed down paradise for the mega rich

          No doubt about that – Treasury have been passing off real estate inflation as growth for thirty years – were ours an educated country, no qualified economist who tried that trick would ever work in their field again.

  7. Dennis Frank 7

    Pics of Orthodox Christians around the world celebrating Christmas on 7 January, including the Russian president: https://www.bbc.com/news/in-pictures-59907964

    Unorthodox christians did so 13 days earlier, led astray by the naughty Romans. Getting it right is real hard. Being righteous, even harder…

    Take the doctrine of sin, for instance. Genesis 2-3 provides our origin myth. God makes serpent & the tree of good & evil, tells Adam no to eat its fruit "for in the day that you eat of it you shall die".

    Serpent tells Eve: “You will not die; for God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” Eve had some "and she also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate. Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made loincloths for themselves… Then the Lord God said, “See, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever” – therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden”.

    So the serpent told the truth. Adam did not die the day he ate the fruit. God was lying? Perhaps he just got it wrong. But his creation the serpent knew better than him, and Genesis proves it. So much for the pretence of God’s omniscience. Origin myths form belief systems which embed to operate as the ruling paradigm of societies, so the Bible here provides evidence that Genesis is the progenitor of fake news. angel

    Genesis doesn't just prove that God was unable to be righteous in his teaching of sin. It also proves the writers who compiled the Old Testament were too stupid to figure it out. Likewise all other true believers ever since. That shows how difficult being righteous is. And then there's the fact that God only expelled Adam from the Garden of Eden. Not Eve! So all them zillions of catholics got it wrong. If the woman was the source of original sin obviously God would have punished her as well. Did he have an ulterior motive for keeping her in the garden? Hmmm…

    • Ad 7.1

      You are an ignorant anti-Christain bigot.

      • Robert Guyton 7.1.1

        He does seem to be poking the borax.

        Of course, the defence that "…you will die…" doesn't mean die will come to mind 🙂

      • RedLogix 7.1.2

        While I have consistently condemned fundamentalist zealots (people who adhere only to the most literal interpretations of their scripture) – it's my firm conviction that at the heart of all the revealed religions lies a common, coherent and convincing pattern of eternal truth.

        Which is why I find this typically left wing, selective anti-Christian polemic as tiresome as you do.

        • Robert Guyton

          That's a very interesting thing to say, RedLogix.

          May I ask, what is meant by "revealed"?

          • RedLogix

            That seems to be the entry test devil

            • Robert Guyton

              Ah! I did my own research 🙂

              Revealed religions: 1. (Theology) religion based on the revelation by God to man of ideas that he would not have arrived at by his natural reason alone.

              That's thrown me a bit.

              Guess I'm in the "natural reason is all there is and that is enough" camp.

              The distinction is a critical one, don't you think?

              • RedLogix

                Guess I'm in the "natural reason is all there is and that is enough" camp.

                And I'm in the 'natural reason is necessary but not sufficient' camp.

                • Gezza

                  And I’m in the ‘natural reason is necessary but not sufficient’ camp.

                  I’m in the uncertain camp.

                  There’s a case for religious (or spiritual, or moral) inspiration to be entirely internally caused (e.g. by empathy, logic, experience, need to choose & coincidentally making the better choice) but to be mistaken for an external intelligence or influence, imo. The empirical evidence for this scenario is pretty strong.

                  And there’s also a case for there actually being a spiritual dimension whereby an external intelligence influences our thinking. The empirical evidence for this is weak, imo, (the fact that millions of people believe in & pray to one or more gods or spirits doesn’t prove they exist; we all have fanciful imaginations that enable us to believe all sorts of things & are prone to confirmation bias) but I don’t discount it as a possibilty because I can’t prove it doesn’t happen.

                  I was raised a Catholic but I don’t believe in the Abrahamic god as being anything other than a convenient story for the leaders of the Israelites. Ditto the Christians & Muslims who built on him.

                  As to whether there’s A god we can entreat for assistance when we need to, I don’t know, but I do this, & then just get on with doing whatever I have to do. Sometimes it seems to work, sometimes not. I’ve never quantified & analysed the results. I certainly find there are times when I think I can sense some sort of higher power or life force.

                  • Dennis Frank

                    My outlook is similar. I've sensed spiritual input from nature since I was a child in the 1950s, exploring the local bush in Brooklands for hours alone. That was before they put the walking tracks through.

                    I've since supplemented that with a decade or so intensive research through the considerable life after death investigations that researchers have published (mainly since the 1970s). Matrix & Gaia theory plus holism added further dimensions.

                    Comparative religion, mysticism & metaphysics also add supplementary insights. Psychology mostly disappoints but Jung was helpful re archetypes. How fields mediate between consciousness & environment has been illuminated by Sheldrake & Bohm but few other scientists venture into such conceptual terrain.

                    I got this book back in the '90s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Origin_of_Consciousness_in_the_Breakdown_of_the_Bicameral_Mind

                    I don't agree with part of his theory (language creates consciousness) since I regard consciousness as natural (produced by nature) but his notion that Bronze Age folk could actually hear deities speaking to them in their heads just like the bible says impressed me despite my natural scepticism. Jaynes theorised that brains functioned differently then. I see no reason to discount the viability of this theory – and, as the wiki suggests, neuroscientists haven't tended to dispute the theory either.

                  • RedLogix

                    I'm not here to convince anyone of anything. If you cast you mind back you will notice a consistent pattern – the participants here who have told us openly that they're members of a faith community rarely, if ever, overtly mention the fact or bring their beliefs to the fore. It informs their values, but in private. I make comment on the topic from time to time, but usually when drawn into it by others.

                    By contrast those who consider faith beneath their intellectual dignity, routinely drop casual slurs and ignorant remarks about religion. Curiously I cannot recall Judaism, Islam, Buddishm or any faith other than Christianity being the target of their derision; it's not only one way traffic, but remarkably selective traffic at that. And the Christians among us almost invariably just ignore it. Until this morning when for the first time I've seen Ad pushed past the limits of his self-respect.

                    None of the revealed faiths, their institutions in particular, is beyond scrutiny or critique, yet they all mean a great deal to billions of humans. And despite many disasters and disillusions on balance humanity owes a great deal to them. We can discuss the topic with some modicum of respect for that reality.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram

                      Curiously I cannot recall Judaism, Islam, Buddishm or any faith other than Christianity being the target of their derision; it's not only one way traffic, but remarkably selective traffic at that.

                      What has and continues to be done in the name of organised religion is a source of both inspiration and horror, demonstrating that diverse faiths are frameworks within which human strengths and weaknesses are revealed.

                      And certainly, as a whole, the strengths outweigh the weaknesses – that's true for believers, agnostics and non-believers alike, imho.

                      Pandemic Religion in Brazil—Temptation and Responsibility [PDF; 7 January 2022]
                      Last July, numbers in Brazil reached around 19 million cases and over 550 thousand deaths due to COVID-19. The epidemiologist Pedro Hallal, called to testify before the Senate’s parliamentary inquiry committee (Comissão Parlamentar de Inquérit — CPI), was clear in explaining that four in every five deaths could have been avoided with good practices of prevention and with the purchase of vaccines since the very first moment they were available (Senado Federal 2021). This scenario leads to the hypothesis that Brazil is facing not only an unsanitary environment, but also an insane one, where responsible scientific-based actions are overshadowed by unfounded opinions, wild conspiracy theories and irresponsible beliefs. This insane/unsanitary situation is seasoned with a religious ingredient that leads us to the title of this article. What we call pandemic religion denotes the hegemonic attempt, by religious leaders, to seek power, to justify violence and to understate or even contradict COVID-19 prevention measures. When religion leads to neglecting the risk of the virus, when it echoes misinformation or creates disinformation, when it sides with political powers that do not care for the life of the people, especially the poor, when the pandemic of exclusion is not faced but legitimised, we are dealing with a kind of religion that seeks to rule rather than to serve, to destroy rather than to edify, to disdain rather than to care.

                      Millennials lead shift away from organized religion as pandemic tests Americans’ faith [29 Dec. 2021]
                      Elsewhere in New York City, younger Christian followers are flocking to Middle Collegiate Church on the Lower East Side, where the Rev. Jacqui Lewis says no topic is off the table. She encourages her congregants — the majority of whom are millennials — to get involved and take a stand on political issues.

                      We put social justice and democracy in the middle of faith in a way that really speaks to young folks,” Lewis said. “We’ve done an incredible amount of campaigning for the right to vote, the right to choose for women, immigrant rights and racial justice.

                      While Lewis said her teachings are inspired by the Bible, her approach is on the progressive political side, emphasizing spirituality and community over scripture. On its website, Middle Collegiate said its church is “where therapy meets Broadway … where old-time religion gets a new twist.

                      While some people may see this model as changing the traditional relationship Christians have with God, Lewis embraces it, saying, “That’s exciting to me, I’m trying to get God out of the box.

                      Nonprofit leader Megha Desai, a Hindu, grew up in Boston but regularly spent time India. She worshiped in beautiful temples in both countries. But Desai, who now lives in New York City, said the pandemic has changed her relationship with religion, and prompted her to ask more questions.

                      These last two years have certainly tested my faith,” Desai said. “As it’s hard to find sense in so many lives being taken from us.

                    • KJT

                      But. Don't! criticise them, or their believers will "get their knickers in a twist".

                      In fact, I've seen "believers" including on here, routinely belittle followers of any other "beliefs" than their own brand of fantasy.

                      Unfortunately "belief" in God/s without evidence seems to pre dispose people to other "beliefs" that lack evidence. Something is "true" because they want it to be true.

                      The idea that Religions shouldn't be held up to, usually justifiable, ridicule is as dangerous as trying to prevent rediculing of other political ideas. And make no mistake, religion has been about political power, justifying power arrangements with mumbo jumbo, since humans started the first one.

                    • RedLogix

                      In fact, I've seen "believers" including on here, routinely belittle followers of any other "beliefs" than their own brand of fantasy.

                      Lets just stick to Ad and myself as the obvious unspoken targets of that claim. I requite a three solid cites or a retraction.

                    • KJT

                      I require three solid proofs that, it is not the case.

                      You made the first claim. Directed at Athiests. LOL.

                      "routinely drop casual slurs and ignorant remarks about religion".

                    • KJT

                      And. I wasn't even thinking about you, or Ad, in particular.

                      "If the coat fits" however.

                    • KJT

                      How is that even relevent?

        • Dennis Frank

          No real need to feel tired about it. Acknowledging the truth ought to be refreshing, invigorating! smiley

          Imagine how good it will feel to put being wrong behind you, finally, and get it right for the first time. devil

          • RedLogix

            Did he have an ulterior motive for keeping her in the garden? Hmmm…

            You are being an offensive fuckwit.

            • Dennis Frank

              So I've reduced you to a wee kiddie too? Sad. Not my intention! If you think you can read my mind, think again. You could, for instance, think of an alternative explanation for why the Genesis writers did that, eh?

              If you got real lucky, you might even be able to come up with something semi-plausible, huh? Something that could excuse using bullshit to torture & murder women for two millennia. Give it a go! devil

              • RedLogix

                You openly implied that God kept Eve in the Garden so as He could fuck her whenever He wanted without Adam around making a nuisance of himself.

                If you think anyone who believed in any monotheistic faith would not find such a claim as ignorant, stupid and offensive – then you have completely failed to read the room. Such a narrative might have made some sense in the ancient polytheistic world of the Greeks for example – but that battle was long ago fought and settled.

                • weka

                  are you saying that the Bible stories should only ever be told in ways that Christians would approve of?

                  I'm not exactly sure what Denis is saying, but I don't find the idea of sex between God and Eve ignorant, stupid of offensive.

                  • RedLogix

                    In the ancient pagan polytheistic world view such a reductionist, literal idea of the 'gods' was the level we operated at.

                    One of it's modern incarnations is the comic book world of superheroes – demigods with miraculous powers that prance around our physical world performing feats us ordinary people can only fantasise about.

                    The monotheistic faiths reject this completely – the Divine is ineffable, and unknowable directly. The human mind is fundamentally limited and incapable of experiencing or comprehending 'God' in any meaningful way.

                    We cannot avoid creating some images of what God might be – and all believers do. But the essence of humility is to acknowledge that they’re a product of a limited human imagination – not a reflection of the unconstrained reality.

                    • weka

                      isn't that what Denis is saying though? That the main way of telling the story of Eve and Adam is limited by the culture of the times (then and now).

                      I mean, he is being provocative (and offensive, although not sure the sex with God bit is), and superficial, but he's not wrong about this,

                      Origin myths form belief systems which embed to operate as the ruling paradigm of societies

                      There are layers of meaning in the story. I can see the arrival of the patriarchy, and how the story has changed over time according to the culture of those telling it. We can look to earlier versions to see how societies at that time related to power and the divine differently.

                    • RedLogix

                      This is a political forum first and foremost and I'm reluctant to extend this thread too much further.

                      But in a nutshell yes – original myths do form a very powerful framework upon which we collectively build our social and cultural values. That the major faiths of the past 10,000 odd years have been tilted toward a patriarchal framing is something we can now look back on and consider it's implications for better and worse. That's a wide open topic.

                      But I am primarily interested in what comes next – and to use an evolutionary analogy – I'm expecting it will both conserve and reshape the core themes of the past, but also create a refreshed, sophisticated mythology that we would no longer call patriarchy.

                  • KJT

                    So. We are not allowed to poke the borax at, “believers" who believe without evidence, any more?.

                    I await the Heresy and Blasphemy trials with interest.

                    Religion has always been about power and control.

                    Nothings changed!

                • Dennis Frank

                  So you can't think of an innocent explanation for God's behaviour, but are seeking to distract the reader's attention from that inadequacy, and suggest irrelevancies in a feeble attempt to do so. I thought you were capable of more than that. frown

                  [my strong suggestion is you explain clearly what you actually meant, instead of baiting people. This is getting close to flaming and is unnecessary. It’s a good topic, please stick with that – weka]

                  • weka

                    mod note

                    • Dennis Frank

                      Okay. Assuming you mean the way I ended the Genesis report. It was intended as a signal. My intent was to point to the state of mind of the Genesis authors.

                      You know how tacit psychology drives behaviour way more than conscious thought? So the religious authorities who compiled Genesis seem to have been intent on providing a moral basis for the relegation of women to the status of second-class citizens (owned by men – in other words, a moral basis for the operation of patriarchy as a social system.

                      History since then is replete with instances of churchmen & aristocracy citing Eve's behaviour as the excuse for the doctrine of original sin, which was then used as the moral (and often legal ) basis for victimising women. The ending was just pointing to a freudian slip by the authors of Genesis. Freudian slips are often indicators of tacit beliefs…

                    • weka

                      I meant what did you mean by this?

                      Did he have an ulterior motive for keeping her in the garden?

                    • weka

                      Afaik the Bible was written over time. Yes, that part of the Bible is also telling us the story of the arrival the patriarchy. I don't think that was intentional, it's just obvious in hindsight. And yes, stories are encoded to reinforce the social structures, mores and expectations of the day.

                    • Dennis Frank

                      Did he have an ulterior motive for keeping her in the garden?

                      Yeah, that was my assumption, as I said – the ending. Since deities are the collective projections of cultures, there's mass psychology embedded in the collective part of the subconscious, shared by all the adherents of the religion.

                      Note that I state that is fact whereas it is actually unproveable – therefore only a widely held belief originated by Jung's theory.

                    • weka

                      what was God's ulterior motive for not releasing Eve from the Garden of Eden?

                      (and I thought they both got thrown out?)

                    • Dennis Frank

                      what was God's ulterior motive for not releasing Eve from the Garden of Eden? (and I thought they both got thrown out?)

                      Not according to the biblical website that I copied Genesis from originally. That was a while back – I put it into a document file as a curiosity (didn't include the link on the basis that competing versions of Genesis don't exist).

                      The reason I was fishing for an explanation from respondents is that I'm in the same situation as you (not a clue about the ulterior motive). Flagging it was to point to the tacit psychology operating in the creation of the bible to mandate patriarchy…

                  • mikesh

                    Presumably, had Adam and Eve not eaten the fruit, they would have lived forever. However that does not mean that that they would still be alive today. I think it means that, like the the beasts of the field, they would have remained ignorant of their impending demise, and so would have lived in an eternal present until they finally snuffed it. Knowing the difference between good and evil means that they became capable of making rational choices instead of being governed by instincts, over which they had no control.

                    Being driven from the garden is, I think, just a metaphor. I think it means that their perceptions of their environment changed, and they started to see it as a sort of "dog eat dog" world where they had to struggle for survival. I don't think that they actually went anywhere.

                    • Dennis Frank

                      just a metaphor

                      Not just that. Check out the punishment subtext. If you disobey god you get ejected from paradise.

                      Other interesting dimensions: is the serpent same as the devil? Devil in disguise perhaps. Or did god create the devil later (fallen angel thesis). And why did god decide such an entity was essential in the Garden of Eden? Kinda like a worm in the apple. As if paradise was too good, so he had to put in imperfection….

                    • mikesh

                      Punishment? What punishment? All God did was point out that the acquisition of knowledge resulted in the loss of innocence. Presumably this was simply a consequence rather than a "punishment". Calling it a "punishment" is simply an interpretation on your part.

                    • Dennis Frank

                      I didn't invent the punishment scenario – it's been used by the christian church for as long as the historical record has existed. I've seen instances so many times in my life that the idea that anyone would try & get away with denying it has never occurred to me! 🙄

                    • mikesh

                      Just because the notion of punishment has been exploited by the church doesn't make it a valid interpretation. The pain that Adam and Eve come to experience is implicit in the acquisition of knowledge.

                • The Al1en

                  You openly implied that God kept Eve in the Garden so as He could fuck her whenever He wanted without Adam around making a nuisance of himself.

                  Interesting your thought process took you there.

                  My take was your gawd would want to keep Eve to do the washing up and vacuuming.

      • Dennis Frank 7.1.3

        Typical leftist. Can't refute the evidence, so defaults to acting like a child. Does naughty name-calling instead of facing up to the good/evil issue.

        I didn’t ignore Genesis, as you claim. I quoted it. You just need to read the quote to get the point. Try again. Engage brain instead!

    • Sabine 7.2

      Of all the things on a beautiful day that you could have said to day to stir a bit o'shite…..

      some people believe in god/esses/s others don't but that is no reason to just be a tosser about it.

      And then there's the fact that God only expelled Adam from the Garden of Eden. Not Eve! So all them zillions of catholics got it wrong. If the woman was the source of original sin obviously God would have punished her as well. Did he have an ulterior motive for keeping her in the garden? Hmmm…

      yeah, nah, nah.

      • Dennis Frank 7.2.1

        Get real. The evidence lies in what they wrote. Why try to deny it? You must be aware of the christian tradition of making women a target on the basis that Genesis authorised such evil. I proved that it does not do so. It's a public service. angel

        • Sabine

          yeah, nah nah.

          • Dennis Frank

            So you're keen for the patriarchy to continue with it's usual thing, based on a deliberate lie about what Genesis says? Why?? 🙄

            • Sabine

              No i am keen on no more shitting on the believes of those that consider themselves Christians then i would be shitting on the believes of someone who is a Muslim, Buddhist, Agnostic, Atheist or any other believe. . Believes are believes, and we all have ours. I don't adhere to that book, but i don't have to be an offensive tit just because i can. And you are needing to ask yourself if you want a discussion or you just want to be offensive. If you want a discussion you might want to know why people are not playing ball with you, if you want to be offensive, congrats dude, you was.

              • Dennis Frank

                Okay, I get it. I can honestly assure you, Sabine, that I wrote what I posted with absolutely no intent to offend anyone here! My intent was to correct the historical record. Nobody has done so before. Just think of all the untold numbers of people who have been harmed by misrepresentation of the bible. Why would any righteous person want that evil to continue?? I sure as hell don't!! angel

                • weka

                  It also proves the writers who compiled the Old Testament were too stupid to figure it out. Likewise all other true believers ever since.

                  Hard to see how that's not offensive to some of the people in the room.

                  Ad throws out provocative and offensive things fairly often. It's fine that he names you doing it, but really if we put such pokes in our comments we can't complain when people respond to them rather than to what we were trying to say.

                  • Dennis Frank

                    True. Human nature. 🙄 I expect folks to act their age & it forever surprises me when they revert to childishness…

                  • Dennis Frank

                    Can't see how. I just pointed to the trad biblical misrepresentation that pseudo-authorised victimisation of women, and cited the factual basis by quoting Genesis. By which I mean the quote is factual (not that Genesis is factual).

                    Then these two other guys fell over each other trying to get hysterical about it. I didn't start that. They need to take responsibility for their childishness. People ought to address issues rather than indulge their inadequacies. This site is for political commentary and you can't get more political than two millennia of oppression of women on an invalid basis!

                    • weka

                      what is wrong with people at the moment? I literally just quoted you saying that Christians are stupid.

                      It also proves the writers who compiled the Old Testament were too stupid to figure it out. Likewise all other true believers ever since.

                  • Dennis Frank

                    What I wrote described two groups of people, and conflating those two groups with all of christianity is something you are doing. I didn't do that. Remember the Old Testament was compiled during the Babylonian captivity of the Israelites – so Genesis is an historical artifact of those people.

                    Enlightened christians exist. I can't speak for them, but I read the bible first as a child and have been reading various revisions of christianity since the 1960s. I own several dozen of those. So I see a spectrum ranging from fundamentalism all the way up to transcendent overview. With 40,000 christian sects on the record, there's no valid basis for generalising about them.

                    • weka

                      I see a direct connection between calling people stupid* and the fact that most of this conversation about been about your framing rather the issues you raised. You can think everyone else is wrong, but that still doesn't put the conversation back on track.

                      *am guessing some of the framing of the theological stuff also contributed.

                    • Stuart Munro

                      The testaments were, I believe, riddled with numerology. The drafters may have had different perspectives on many things, but calling them stupid is inane. They could likely make the same accusation because most of us can't read their numbers.

                    • Dennis Frank

                      The drafters may have had different perspectives on many things, but calling them stupid is inane.

                      Seems fair enough to me. They inherited an oral mythistory in which god told Adam he'd die if he ate the fruit. He ate it, didn't die, god expelled him instead.

                      Are you trying to suggest the authors believed god was trying to con Adam with his prediction of death? That's possible. A theologian would point out that god works in mysterious ways.

                      So yes, rather than assume the authors were too stupid to notice that the serpent was proven correct that Adam would not die if he ate the fruit and god was proven wrong, they could have assumed that god created the serpent to test Adam via temptation.

                      Entirely possible that the jewish deity was that devious. Or should I say devilish? Playing both sides of the moral divide against Adam in the middle. Guess I just went for Occam's Razor instead.

                  • Dennis Frank

                    Well, the first of those two groups perpetrated an obvious falsehood 2.5 millennia back (perhaps earlier if you include centuries of verbal transmission of the origin myth).

                    Since I proved that the actual text of Genesis contradicts what the church used to persecute women (the doctrine of original sin) the interesting point is what stopped everyone from seeing the lie.

                    Since women and most men weren't able to read the bible for most of that time, those guilty of creating the evil were the priests/bishops/cardinals/popes who could read it.

                    Now I agree that the organised evil during that long period may not be due to stupidity of those who could see for themselves what Genesis actually told them to believe. It may have been mutual commitment to evil-doing that caused the behaviour. The female victims would probably see it that way, eh?

                    However it's too much of a stretch to apply the same logic to those who read Genesis since the Reformation. Ordinary citizens, not churchmen, I mean. The stupidity thesis seems the likeliest reason they failed to notice the discrepancy.

                • Sabine

                  Which writers are you referring to considering that the new and the old testament have been written in english, german, latin, french, italian etc, and each have their own translations and there is a myriad of bible texts and interpretations.

                  lets start with that. Whom are you actually talking about, by whom i mean which writer of what?

                  • Dennis Frank

                    The prevailing view amongst those who research the topic seems to be that the OT was compiled during the Babylonian captivity (I already mentioned that earlier).

                    The specialists don't report the personal identity of those who compiled/wrote it (from verbal accounts passed down the prior generations). They weren't included in the historical record.

    • Foreign waka 7.3

      Its called a parable and it tells the story of loyalty and belief and only in some books a story of knowing through retrospective historical events. We should not forget that these manuscripts are several thousand years old. The bible was rewritten many times over and the version it seems you use is the King James version. The original first bible is the Codex Vaticanus.


      The book of Genesis basically combines several books of both the everlasting question of where we come from with the historical stories of war, peace, destruction through floods (Noah) and the creation of laws (Salomon) that govern our behaviour.

      The original manuscript is seen as the first book of the Hebrew Thora and the Old Testament of the Christians.

      As to the assertion of yours that god lied, god never lies but the story confirms that the human capacity of understanding for more than just the physical world with all its trapping has died. If you look around you and try to make sense of what is going on, I'll say that there is something to the bibles assertion that we have lost paradise.


      I am a Christian and don’t feel offended, rather sad that you cannot see that so many books in all cultures are of the same idea, to find the truth of why we are here.

      • Adrian 7.3.1

        Maybe God just liked a temptress ? Of course she would have eventually gone to Hell, after all that's where all the interesting women are !

        But really there is no God, the writers made him up to explain how we got here and how the Universe came to be. Try explaining the Big Bang, Newtonian physics and Quantum Theory to early Homo Erectus, ( jeez, I'm lucky to just be able to spell them badly ), easier to just go with a big terrifying monster entity like in the comics.

        • Foreign waka

          Adrian, I am not about to go into an argument with an atheist.

          There will be that threshold for everybody once they die. And this will be the moment anyone will find out what their truth is. I can and will not convince you of any story in that regard as it is a personal journey everybody has to take for themselves. Suffice to say that my intention is not to convince you. I belief what I belief and you do what you do.

          However, we all need to understand that we think that we are enlightened today but this is only true in relation to the people thousands of years ago, sometimes not so much though (sarc) . Add the same time ahead and we look like very much in need of more knowledge. The fact that we can fly to the moon doesn't mean that its creation under whatever law isn't divine. Scientists only offer a theory on how the universe came to be and are still searching within the tiniest means to explore. Theories are being accepted but science will develop further so will be that all theories are amended, exchanged as science keeps discovering. Some are talking about intelligent design. To see any of the findings as an absolute would in fact stop the development of peoples minds in its track. Let the search for the why, how and what continue and be amazed not only by what is found but also the minds that dare try to find answers to their questions – of what is out there, why and how and what are we here for.

          • Adrian

            That's where you are wrong FW. I am not an atheist, I just don't believe God is an entity, let alone, God forbid, a human constructed one. My best bet is that as we, and everything else in the Universe are/is pure energy, even when we die we just return to a pure energy state via the atoms that are our makeup, rot and decay, and burning are merely a return to that state, and that God too is that energy, that lifeforce if you will. My assumption is that the wise amongst the ancients had a inkling that there was something there and they called it our "spirit ", molecular biology being a step too far even for the brightest of them, and as a way to explain it to those not so wise they constructed entities to explain why stuff happened. The burning or flaming metaphor is often used in the Bible as sign from God.

            My favourite true God story is the good ole southern Baptist mumma on some TV show , maybe Louis Theroux, discussing the language of the Bible sprouted that if English was good enough for Jesus, it was good enough for her. God help us!

            BTW, why are so many human constructed Gods such mean vindictive bastards?

      • Dennis Frank 7.3.2

        a parable

        Have you counted how many christians believe the bible is literally true? Millions. My point was that the Genesis story has always been misrepresented by the church. By quoting it, I showed how they did that. This organised lying about the bible for two millennia provided the historical basis for the doctrine of original sin.

        Blaming women only worked if they lied about what Genesis actually said. So they had to tell that lie. It was the only way they could justify persecuting women.

        • Foreign waka

          Dennis, none of that will deflect that all of the universe and living things are working in sync under laws we call physics, but the question is: who created these laws.

          It is not up to me to judge what everybody should believe, I said in my previous text that everybody has their own journey of making sense of their lives.

          What you refer to is the way the cultural context distorted the role of women. Society's functions have been designed by men and are in many areas of life discriminate against women. Historically this has been always the way. In recent times for example, the credo of equal rights has taken the rights of women of being able to choose a life at home raising children without knowingly going into hardship unless you are one of the 5% high earners. All it did was making the rich richer by eroding the means to earn a living under these circumstances and it is now necessary for both parents to work. A lot more thought has to be given to any "trend" implementation before slogans are being thrown around, political good behaviour stars awarded and one persons conviction made another's prison. Females are still earning less then their male counterparts and coupled with child rearing restricts their means to survive in old age. Now all that has nothing to do with God or the bible but with the law of the land and who makes it. Men are designing our society still and its structure is purposely implemented. All this is to suppress females or even other races in order to provide the illusion of power for some. Instead of doubting god, I doubt that any of our politicians are actually up to the task or unbiased enough to hold office.

          Have a great weekend and don't get too upset about religion, we have bigger fish to fry 🙂

          • Dennis Frank

            smiley Same to you & I share your broad outlook on the history. I also am inclined to the intelligent design perspective (without limiting that to the christian usage).

      • Dennis Frank 7.4.1

        I'm not an atheist, but her wiki does indicate a similar view of the past…

        The main focus of Stavrakopoulou's research is on the Hebrew bible, and on Israelite and Judahite history and religion. Stavrakopoulou supports the academic consensus that important figures in the Hebrew bible were not historical figures as represented in that text.

        She has further stated that she believes "very little, probably" of the Hebrew bible is historical fact, based on the arguments that ancient writers had an understanding of "fact" and "fiction" very different from a modern understanding, and that the Hebrew bible "wasn't written to be a factual account of the past"; she concludes, saying she does not believe accounts of Moses and King David in the Hebrew bible to be factual, and that "as an historian of the bible, I think there is very little that is factual".

        Mythos in general, and origin myths in particular, bind believers into a tribe or clan and sometimes later embed into a nationality. There seems to be a predisposition in the human psyche to use these elements of mass psychology in the social construction of reality.

        Springsteen singing about the theory of evolution with a mean lead guitar gets it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1K3Ext-0tM

        In her 2021 book, God: An Anatomy, Stavrakopoulou "presents a vividly corporeal image of God: a human-shaped deity who walks and talks and weeps and laughs, who eats, sleeps, feels, and breathes, and who is undeniably male.

        That ain't me babe! Not a smidgin of corporeality in my view.

        Here is a portrait–arrived at through the author’s close examination of and research into the Bible–of a god in ancient myths and rituals who was a product of a particular society, at a particular time, made in the image of the people who lived then, shaped by their own circumstances and experience of the world".

        Yeah, that's more like my view. I'd just add that the tendency to conflate Hebrew & Israelite is regrettable. Israel was conquered more than a century before Judah. Only the latter half of the Hebrews ended up in Babylon as far as I know.

    • georgecom 7.5

      a spiritual death, not necessarily a physical death. it's typology or symbology

      refer Chornthians 15:45 “The first man, Adam, was created a living being”; but the last Adam became a lifegiving Spirit"

      read the 4 gospels and you hear Jesus talk of eating him, drinking of waters etc. Christ becoming the manifestation or reality of spiritual life.

      thats the correct interpretation to take from the genesis death

      • Dennis Frank 7.5.1

        Can't argue with your reasoning there! Seems quite feasible. I can see how it would appeal to christians who don't believe the bible is literally true.

        The notion of levels of meaning available only to initiates is ancient and appears in various cultural/political traditions. The hierarchy of freemasons, for instance. A deeper level of meaning gets revealed at each step upward.

        • georgecom

          The old testament was a preface if you like to Christ. He referred to himself as coming to fulfil the old testament law. being the living embodiment of god.

      • mikesh 7.5.2

        Does having the knowledge of good and evil lead to spiritual dearth? Seems unlikely.

        • georgecom

          yes that's the biblical teaching. whether you believe the bible or not, different matter.

  8. swordfish 8


    Interesting Study from Brazil:

    regular use of ivermectin as a prophylactic agent was associated with significantly reduced COVID-19 infection, hospitalization, and mortality rates.

    (PDF) Ivermectin Prophylaxis Used for COVID-19 Reduces COVID-19 Infection and Mortality Rates: A City-Wide, Prospective Observational Study of 220,517 Subjects Using Propensity Score Matching. (researchgate.net)

  9. Byd0nz 9

    Glad I’m god-free from birth. What a mess god- freaks have made for the peoples of Earth.

  10. Johnr 10

    The is a distinct divide, difference tween book learnt engineers and proper ones

    • pat 10.1

      We need both however…..though have come across a few 'book' engineers who I wouldnt let near anything other than a meccano set.

  11. joe90 11


    ABC15 also uncovered that the members of the Phoenix police protest response team owned, shared, and sold challenge coins to celebrate violence against protesters. The coin’s language is tied to hate speech.


  12. joe90 12

    Oh joy.

    Children who have recovered from Covid-19 appear to be at significantly increased risk of developing Type 1 or Type 2 diabetes, researchers at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reported on Friday.

    A heightened risk of diabetes has already been seen among adults who recovered from Covid, according to some studies. Researchers in Europe have reported an increase in the number of children being diagnosed with Type 1 diabetes since the pandemic started.


    The researchers found increases in diabetes in both data sets, though the relative rates were quite different: they found a 2.6-fold increase in new diabetes cases among children in one, and a smaller 30 percent increase in another.

    “Even a 30 percent increase is a big increase in risk,” said Sharon Saydah, a researcher at the C.D.C. and lead author of the study. The differences likely result from different ways of classifying children as having Covid, she added.

    Dr. Saydah said it was not yet clear whether post-Covid diabetes would be a chronic condition in these children, or a transient condition that resolves. Most of the children were only followed about four and a half months.



    edit: possible mechanism of action


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