Open Mike 08/03/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, March 8th, 2018 - 291 comments
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291 comments on “Open Mike 08/03/2018”

  1. reason 1

    National are such nasty incompetent wankers …. that even a dildo was repulsed by stephen Joyce…. 😉

    They were nasty and cheap their last time in opposition … especially when blowing their racist dog whistle attacks ….. like when they complained of $ 26100 grant / /funding …toHip-Hop / rap artists

    ( National were giving $14 Million per year to orchestra music / artists in 2016 * ).

    They were very incompetent in Government … ripping of a rap artist and being found guilty in court …. Being liable for $600,000 damages, plus their own large legal fee’s ….

    The performance arts and techniques of Hip Hop and Rap,… has grown, evolved and branched into multi Billion music markets …. which National has shown they would rather steal from …. than invest in.

    Here’sSome clips of Artists, bands and genres within the rapping spectrum ( music vids are a bit of an art form themselves nowadays ).
    The first two are NZ Artists ….

    salmonella dub

    supergroove

    https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=die+antwoord+i+fink+u+freeky+l

    https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=dub+fx+supernova+pilot

    * Being a small elite … being mainly white … and being subsidized with strong-arm enforcement from our Government … spending tens of millions of our NZ public tax money … Makes the Orchestra a natural for Americas cup.partnership;p

  2. Good morning AM show this behavior of the government insurance company spying on te tanagta is what shonkys legacy .
    He gave the sandflies to much power they have open axis to the national computa data base this is to much power for little boys . His legacy is also the 00.1 % are above the law and the 99.9% are sorry to use this phrase but its reality sheep to be fleeced.
    Ana to kai Ka kite ano

    • eco maori 3.1

      ECO MAORIs Kiwi Bank ac 389019048573100 Please help me to sort the nz police out
      I decided against trying to use PayPal to receive donations .I decided to copy
      Thestandards safe way of appealing and receiving donations I set up a Kiwi Bank AC
      So he tangata the people of Aoteraoroa New Zealand who support ECO MAORI can use internet banking to make donations and know that there bank accounts are safe after they have made a donation . ECO MAORI will use the donations to SUE the nz police for all the breaches to mine and my Whano Privacy Rights & Human Rights a lot of people can see this has been happening to ECO MAORI when I win my case I will set up a
      Charitable Trust and I will pay the money that I used and any extra donations into this Trust account and appeal to anyone else in Aoteraoroa who need help with finance to SUE the nz police for there in justices I will copy bank statements on this site to let he tangata the people know that ECO MAORI has Honest Honorable and transparent intentions to use your hard earned Putea Money. .
      Kia Kaha Ka kite ano

      • eco maori 3.1.1

        Many thanks to News Hub AM Show Paddy Gower for showing that the government insurance agency spying on people and use the police to do this. This is how the system is treating me using any agency any business any person they can to try and intimidate ECO MAORI .They are using everything they can dream up to try and paste a farcial image on ECO MAORI if any of these spinning lies were true they would arrest me??????????. I WILL STOP THE GOVERMENT agencies treating people like sheep. Ana to kai ka kite ano

        • eco maori 3.1.1.1

          The reason ladys have dropped in the business management % is because shonky put all his neo liberal m8 in as many CEO positions as he could and these men think that its a mans right to be the boss rule over lades thats what happens when you have a bigot ruining the country for 9 years unchecked.
          Ana to kai

  3. Stunned Mullet 4

    Just when you think Ed was the nadir of Open Mike …..good old standard never ceases to surprise.

  4. Ed 5

    Stuff start an investigation into sugar in our diet.
    Some predictions.

    1. The investigation will succeed in muddying the water, rather than clarifying the issue.
    2. Radical solutions like a significant sugar tax, advertising against sugar and the explosion of multinationals selling sugary drinks will not be put forward.
    3. Economic Incentives to eat a whole food plant based diet will not be suggested.

    It will just look like Stuff care.
    But nothing will happen.
    Until the next time they investigate sugar.

    Just as the owners of Stuff would want.

    • Antoine 5.1

      At the end of the day it’s only a newspaper

      • Ed 5.1.1

        Once papers caused governments to fall…..

        • Antoine 5.1.1.1

          It’s a long step down from there to trying to persuade everyone to eat tofu

          • Ed 5.1.1.1.1

            I wonder if catastrophic climate change will persuade you.

            • Antoine 5.1.1.1.1.1

              Rather cannibalism than soyburgers mate

              • I feel love

                Really? That’s kinda mental, I’m a meat eater but nothing wrong with soyburgers or tofu, maybe broaden your palette or just stop being pig ignorant? Whatever really, but cannibalism?

                • Antoine

                  Not interested in holding a debate with a talking beansprout like you

                • Puckish Rogue

                  Cannibalism’s a pretty sure-fire way of reducing over population though 🙂

                • weka

                  “but nothing wrong with soyburgers or tofu,”

                  Industrial soy is massive damaging to the planet. The vegan propagandists are lying to us (although tbf, I think many of them genuinely believe what they are saying).

                  Far far better to eat local, whether that is mutton, soy, or whatever.

                  And yes, for people that eat a lot of meat and dairy, it’s probably better to eat less. People that don’t have enough meat and dairy to eat and are malnourished should be enabled to eat more.

                  • Puckish Rogue

                    Well put

                  • JohnSelway

                    Agree

                  • andrew murray

                    Hey Weka,
                    I think there are assumptions in your human-focused response that aren’t demonstrably true. You can hold the view that other sentient beings have no intrinsic rights that beat your desire to eat them but your reply has the effect of presenting that claim as proven and therefore not required to be commented on.

                    • weka

                      Andrew, I’m not sure how you got that from my comment that you replied to tbh. However you mistake my general argument. I’m not saying animals don’t have rights, I’m saying *all of nature has rights. Follow that one along its natural path and you’ll see more of what I am arguing.

                      The whole sentient thing is up for debate too. When vegan activists will engage with that one meaningfully, we might get somewhere. Again, not arguing that animals aren’t sentient, but arguing that sentience in nature is broader and deeper than what vegans assert.

                  • weka

                    nah, fuck it, I think there are plenty of vegan propagandists who know full well that industrial soy is a problem, but are still pushing the line of don’t eat animals, because that is actually what they want, people to stop eating animals. Unfortunately this impacts negatively on the vegans who are actually ethical and doing good things and the whole debate gets skewed.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram

                      ‘Vegan propagandists’ may well be lying to us (that’s what lobbyists get paid for), but the NZ vegan ‘propagandist’ budget isn’t worth a bean. The NZ dairy and meat propagandist budget, on the other hand, is as hale and hearty as a very hungry Richie McCaw.

                      There may be plenty of evidence that “Industrial soy is massively damaging to the planet.” Whereas, it’s animal farming that is a major contributor the continuing serious degradation of our rural lakes and rivers. Just this morning RNZ ran an item about another Northland lake being closed due to an algal bloom most likely caused by contamination with cattle faeces.

                      https://player.fm/series/rnz-morning-report/second-far-north-lake-contaminated-by-algal-bloom

                      Couldn’t consider adopting a vegetarian, let alone a vegan diet myself, but I’m truly bewildered by the hostility towards those who advocate for veganism in NZ. It’s not as if ‘vegan lobbyists’ have a stranglehold on NZ politicians, whereas advantages to primary producers are supposedly why NZ must be part of the CPTPPA.

                    • weka

                      The very fact that you just juxtaposed veganism vs industrial dairying is a problem and one that vegan activists have had a big hand in. Both industrial soy and industrial dairy cause damage, it’s not one vs the other. The only reason that veganism looks reasonable in NZ is because we don’t have that much soy growing here and we have tight controls on GE crops, so the kind of industry that you see in places like the US hasn’t happened here. Yet.

                      People who think that swapping industrial dairy with industrial soy is at least an improvement are missing the point. We could swap industrial dairy for eat local and regeneratively i.e. we should be focusing on the best food growing for our conditions and that takes into account climate change mitigation and adaptation. The reason we don’t even have that conversation is because vegans are driving an animal welfare agenda under the guise of an environmental one and creating the false dichotomy you just presented.

                      I have a pretty strong critique of industrial dairying. The difference there is that they have no moral high ground. Vegan propagandists are misusing ethics to push an agenda that is fundamentally dishonest, so a different kind of ire is generated.

                      Vegans internationally now have enough funding that their propaganda needs to be countered in the strongest terms.

                      That is quite separate from vegans who make personal choices or who also work for the relocalisation of food.

                    • There may be plenty of evidence that “Industrial soy is massively damaging to the planet.” Whereas, it’s animal farming that is a major contributor the continuing serious degradation of our rural lakes and rivers.

                      It’s almost as though intensive soy production and intensive dairy production were both bad ideas…

                      …I’m truly bewildered by the hostility towards those who advocate for veganism in NZ.

                      Can’t speak for others, but I find it annoys me when people suggest I’m a moral degenerate for not sharing their dietary enthusiasms. Hostility tends to ensue.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram

                      We all have to eat, drink and breathe, so it’s useful to understand the relative environmental costs and potential nutritional problems associated with various diets. Those considerations have had only a small effect on my moderate consumption of meat, which I choose simply because I like the taste.

                      Ed’s pro-vegan stance annoys you because you feel he/she is suggesting you’re morally degenerate? Not very effective advocacy then, is it. Maybe Ed’s a fifth columnist, or maybe you’re reading too much into his words (but only Ed would know for sure.)

                      I don’t feel belittled by Ed’s comments – must be ‘thick-skinned’.

                    • weka

                      I don’t feel belittled by Ed’s comments either, I can easily argue against them on ethical as well as environmental grounds. I just find the whole thing tedious, and worse, it’s just bad politics at a time when we can’t afford that re climate change (or other environmental issues).

                    • Drowsy M. Kram

                      Agreed, it’s easy to argue either side on various grounds, however one person’s tedium is another’s passion.

                      Personally don’t think that veganism is a conventional political issue/movement – it doesn’t have the political profile or historical reach of anthropogenic climate change.

                      If I knew how, then I’d search Hansard for ‘vegan’, and would predict that if the term came up at all then it would be used most often as a pejorative, in the vein of ‘hippie, commie, pinko, liberal’. [Edit: Have just searched Hansard; ‘vegan’ mentioned 5 times (from 2003 to present); Judith Collins was less than complementary.]

                      From my perspective, veganism can’t be an easy option, and espousing veganism in NZ must be a hard row to hoe.

                      Trivia question: How many members of our representative parliament are declared vegetarians, or vegans? [I have no idea.]

                      http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/CU1602/S00170/vegetarianism-on-the-rise-in-new-zealand.htm

                    • weka

                      see my comment above about the two sides thing. My point is that the important moves are being lost because of the fundamentalists in the vegan movement.

                      By the time this gets into Hansard it will be too late. There is a big push internationally to get people to stop eating animal products. I don’t have a problem with that for people that want to change their eating ethically. But the misinformation about the impacts on climate is dangerous.

                      This isn’t a hippy fringe movement, it’s a movement that has a lot of support from culture changers in the mainstream. Twenty years ago the vegans were young anarchists, now they’re in most progressive movements and making inroads. They’re also in wealthy parts of the culture and using their money and influence to do what Ed is doing here.

                      We should be having a conversation about regenerative agriculture, but we’re not. Instead we’re having a polarised debate about whether people should eat animals at all or not. It’s daft and a dead end but one that is sucking up valuable time and energy better spent on urgent climate change action.

                    • mauī

                      “How many members of our representative parliament are declared vegetarians, or vegans? [I have no idea.]”

                      More likely to be from the Green Party I imagine. I’ve found sources saying Gareth Hughes used to be one and Mojo Mathers is one.

                    • Ed

                      The solution.
                      Eat locally produced food.
                      Eat a plant based diet.

                    • weka

                      Nice on Ed.

          • Matiri 5.1.1.1.2

            I eat a whole food plant based diet Antoine for health reasons and don’t need to eat tofu – I don’t like it. Lots of delicious alternatives and my serious health problems have been resolved as a result.

            • Antoine 5.1.1.1.2.1

              I’m honestly glad you feel better. I was really just kidding around above.

              A.

            • patricia bremner 5.1.1.1.2.2

              Yes I’m in your camp. Two things turn me of a dish of food. Disguised tofu or disguised tripe. I’d have to be starving.

              Eating seasonal and local is great.

              • greywarshark

                Do you come here for open, honest, blatant tripe Patricia?

                Really sometimes it/s hard to stomach.

              • Ed

                Eating seasonal local plant based food is ideal.

              • mikes

                Disguised as ?

                I ask because when I worked at a Buddhist temple we often used to get fed and it was vegetarian or vegan, which in itself wasn’t a problem as the food was usually pretty good. But I couldn’t understand why they had stuff (not sure what it actually was, maybe tofu?) that was made to look like meat products. For example vegetarian (or vegan i’m not sure) bacon and sausages.

                I would have thought that if you didn’t want to eat meat then making your food look like meat would be the last thing you would want to do? I did think that maybe they were being polite and it was just for us meat eaters but apparently it was standard for all of them. It just doesn’t make sense to me and was quite a turn off.

            • Ed 5.1.1.1.2.3

              Agree.
              You can eat a plant based diet and not eat tofu.
              There are so many options.

              And then billions of animals don’t get tortured and killed.
              And the planet benefits from the slow decline of industrial meat farming.

              It’s really quite simple.
              I do not understand why taking an ethical stand for farmed animals and the planet engenders such hostility.

              • Stunned Mullet

                “I do not understand why taking an ethical stand for farmed animals and the planet engenders such hostility.”

                It’s not the ethical stand that’s engendering the hostility.

              • Antoine

                I mean I suspect Ed’s probably right and we’re all wrong, but there are ways to go about things without annoying people.

                A.

            • Peter 5.1.1.1.2.4

              I to eat a whole food plant diet for health reasons and my health problems have been fixed, I some times eat soy but not a great fan of it.

              • Ed

                A plant based diet is key to good health.
                There is also the issue of animal welfare and cruelty.
                Finally the advocates for meat eating must accept that their habit is a major contributor to the onset of catastrophic climate change.

                And climate change is the nuclear issue of this generation.
                Like the bomb, it has the power to make us extinct.

                So we need to do something.
                Many things.

                And one thing we all can do easily is adopt a plant based diet.

                • A plant based diet is key to good health.

                  The conventional wisdom certainly says so, without having anything much to base it on. Most diseases of affluence involve processed food in general and refined carbs in particular. Refined carbs are plant-based.

                  Finally the advocates for meat eating must accept that their habit is a major contributor to the onset of catastrophic climate change.

                  Let me fix that for you:

                  “Finally the advocates for eating must accept that their habit is a major contributor to the onset of catastrophic climate change.”

                  You had a superfluous word in there: “meat.” Crop farming is also a major contributor to the onset of catastrophic climate change.

                  • Macro

                    You had a superfluous word in there: “meat.” Crop farming is also a major contributor to the onset of catastrophic climate change.

                    Indeed. What Ed and co. fail to recognise when they promote a solely vegetable diet and the elimination of animals from the biosphere is the important role that both plants and animals play in soil carbon sequestration.
                    Constant tillage depletes soil carbon – rotational grazing increases soil carbon. If Ed and co are truly interested in mitigation of climate change by reducing GHG’s they need to acknowledge that good farming practices actually sequester carbon and constant tillage actually increases GHG’s

                    • Ed

                      Industrial factory farming accounts for over 95% of the animals slaughtered so meat eaters get cheap meat.
                      Your bucolic imagery does not equate to reality.

                    • Macro

                      If you have ever driven past the soy fields that once were prairies you would understand that industrial cropping is equally to blame. US agriculture – under the previous regime – were in the process of reverting agriculture on native grasslands back to a more sustainable and productive regime. Animals are part of that and the resulting Carbon sequestration that results is impressive.

                • mikes

                  “A plant based diet is key to good health.”

                  – In your opinion maybe, but not true. The key to good health (in terms of diet) is eating a healthy, balanced diet and ensuring you’re not continuously ingesting more calories than you are burning.

    • The investigation will succeed in muddying the water, rather than clarifying the issue.

      Given that everyone the journalists speak to, whether in the industry, public health academia or health activists, will be peddling an agenda, Stuff is hardly to blame for that.

      Radical solutions like a significant sugar tax, advertising against sugar and the explosion of multinationals selling sugary drinks will not be put forward.

      They will be put forward, because people the journalists speak to will put them forward. If, on the other hand, you want the journalists to become activists for your preferred cause, you’re likely to be very disappointed.

      Economic Incentives to eat a whole food plant based diet will not be suggested.

      Er, good. I expect they won’t suggest colonic irrigation or crystal therapy either, in fact the list of irrelevant things they won’t suggest is a very long one.

      • Ed 5.2.1

        You underestimate the power of the media.
        I recommend you watch ‘Shadows of Liberty.’
        Chilling.

        • Psycho Milt 5.2.1.1

          If Stuff is that powerful, you should be chuffed. There’s a reason they’re doing a big investigation of sugary drinks, and that reason isn’t “Because the beverage industry was so keen on keeping this issue in front of people.”

          • Ed 5.2.1.1.1

            I’m sure the sugar corporations are quaking in their boots, knowing the corporate media ( owned by large financial interests) is investigating them.
            What could possibly go wrong?

            • Psycho Milt 5.2.1.1.1.1

              What could possibly go wrong for NZ’s sugar industry from having a major news site keeping sugar taxes in the news under a Labour-led government? Quite a lot, I would have thought…

    • solkta 5.3

      3. Economic Incentives to eat a whole food plant based diet will not be suggested.

      What the fuck has the sugar issue got to do with veganism? Just shows that you will conflate anything and everything to promote your religion. You are full of shit.

      • mauī 5.3.1

        You are covered in shit, he’s not advocating veganism, Ed’s promoting healthy eating vs the unhealthy eating of sugars.

        • Antoine 5.3.1.1

          To be fair, a whole food plants based diet is not so very far away from veganism.

          A.

          • mauī 5.3.1.1.1

            Thank you A.

          • solkta 5.3.1.1.2

            We all know that by a “plant based diet” Ed means veganism.

            • mauī 5.3.1.1.2.1

              Yeah we all know.. but you had to put words in Ed’s mouth to clarify.

              • solkta

                Well if we all know and Ed knows we know then I haven’t put any words in his mouth.

                Ed has clearly defined what he means by this so often here, there is nothing to dispute.

                • weka

                  I think “plant based diet” is an improvement on veganism, so feel it’s better not to conflate the two. When someone says plant based diet, I think Michael Pollan, which certainly doesn’t exclude eating meat and dairy in reasonable amounts. If vegans are going to use plant based diet they’ll have to deal with the fact that many people who eat meat also have a plant based diet (I do).

                  • solkta

                    I know vegans locally who use “plant based diet” to mean vegan. I think it is a strategy and that they think this is softer than saying vegan. I’ve consulted mr google and accept now that the term is widely used to mean a diet low in meat.

                    I’m not sure though how many people could be said to have a “meat based diet”? I’ve met a few, but the majority of meat eaters i think would still eat more plant material than meat.

                    Perhaps Ed could tell us what he means by the term??

                    • weka

                      Yes, I think it’s a strategy by some vegan activists. No reason we can’t have a counter strategy and use the term more broadly 😉

                      I wouldn’t call a meat and two veg diet plant based. If someone thinks they need or want meat in most meals, that’s not plant based. I wouldn’t call them meat based, just regular western omnivores.

        • Psycho Milt 5.3.1.2

          Ed: “Economic Incentives to eat a whole food plant based diet”

          mauī: “he’s not advocating veganism”

          Psycho Milt: [facepalm]

          • mauī 5.3.1.2.1

            In the context of what Ed originally said, Ed was advocating veganism about as much as the old “5+ a day” campaign advocates for it.

            http://www.5aday.co.nz/

            • Gabby 5.3.1.2.1.1

              If one hand washes the other in a sock, does it make a sound?

            • Robert Guyton 5.3.1.2.1.2

              “Economic Incentives to eat a whole food plant based diet”

              Whole-food? plant-based? Such a diet could include some meat; it’s “plant-based” not “exclusive of meat” – the base of your diet is plants, other things can be included: fish, insects, clay, if you wish (some do).
              If that’s what Ed was saying (previous comments aside), then I support his position.

              • weka

                Me too. And lots of cultures have done exactly that, had plant based diets with smaller amounts of animal foods added in, rather than the meat and two veg we inherited from the Brits.

                • Robert Guyton

                  Did Masai really drink milk and blood as their staple/only food?
                  The “Boy’s Own” of my childhood told me so!

                  • weka

                    At a guess I would say staple, not only. As I understand it to eat a diet like that you have to be very active.

                  • greywarshark

                    What about Mongolians – they drink horses milk don’t they?

          • veutoviper 5.3.1.2.2

            LOL – he has his own Clayton’s translator!

        • solkta 5.3.1.3

          “he’s not advocating veganism”

          Yes he is. He is using the sugar issue as a means to promote his religion even though there is no connection. There is no sugar in meat. Meat is also a wholefood. The answer to the sugar problem is a wholefood diet not veganism.

          • Ed 5.3.1.3.1

            Meat has different issues to sugar.
            Sugar makes you unwell.
            Meat makes you unwell in different ways AND is significantly responsible for climate change.
            But that doesn’t matter, does it?

            Just write off people ‘s concerns as a religion.
            That’ll do it.

            • solkta 5.3.1.3.1.1

              Meat has different issues to sugar.

              So don’t conflate the two.

              • weka

                ok, I get what you are saying here, but there’s also this. Sociologically, patterns of eating that are high in sugar are related to patterns of eating that are high in meat and low in fruit/veg. The Standard American Diet. We can suggesting ‘don’t eat sugar’, but if the person is already eating a meat and refined carb diet, don’t eat sugar isn’t that helpful a message, esp if they are also told to eat low fat. Eat more plants on the other hand, is very helpful (individually if they can, and societally to deal with the issues of poverty and access to fresh produce), esp if the message is eat more plants in a whole food diet.

            • Robert Guyton 5.3.1.3.1.2

              Ed, I have a question for you: do you wear leather shoes, belts, and so on (nothing kinky being implied here)? If not (I’m guessing), would you wear a still-in-good-nick belt, say, or jacket? My interest is genuine.

            • Robert Guyton 5.3.1.3.1.3

              Ed – a question: would you wear second-hand (worn before by humans) leather, in the form of a belt or shoes?

              • Ed

                Yes if I already owned it and I would not buy another.

                • Robert Guyton

                  Thanks, Ed. That makes you, imo, not an “extremist vegan”, rather a pragmatic sort of guy, if that helps.

          • mauī 5.3.1.3.2

            It’s widely thought that the best response to an unhealthy diet is to eat more fruit and vegetables. Just accept that was what Ed was trying to say. Meat isn’t generally thought of as a way to counteract a bad diet, unless you’re deficient in say iron for example.

            • solkta 5.3.1.3.2.1

              Why would i accept that that is what Ed was trying to say when i know that is not true?

              • Robert Guyton

                Because it would be graceful?

                • greywarshark

                  RG
                  You are truly graceful – like a ballet (not balley or belly) dancer.

                  • Robert Guyton

                    How kind you are, greywarshark. I have to say though, the Turkish bellydancer who stayed with our family and who danced for us, was very graceful 🙂

          • Ed 5.3.1.3.3

            The China Study links meat eating to a large range of illlnesses.

            https://nutritionstudies.org/the-china-study/

            • Psycho Milt 5.3.1.3.3.1

              The CDC study links plant eating to a large range of illnesses.

              Majority Of Foodborne Illness Caused By Green Vegetables

              • greywarshark

                But these two points are not the same are they. Tl:dr China Study or CDC study but what I have read in the past is that meat eating can cause a change for the worse in the metabolism of the body as well as bad meat causing illness. But meat that is in good condition can cause bad effects if eaten in large amounts, cancer is one I think.

                Illnesses caused by green vegetables would be more responses to bacteria wouldn’t they (there have been some noticeable ones from growing them in unhealthy, infected water) ie Foodborne illness.

                • Indeed they’re not the same. In the CDC study, the connection between eating the plants and becoming ill is clear and demonstrated. In the China study, the connection between eating meat and becoming ill is an inference based on statistics, which is a recipe for correlation = causation errors and confirmation bias. Whether the people studied genuinely were more likely to become ill via eating meat or via something else is anybody’s guess.

                • Ed

                  Of course

            • mikes 5.3.1.3.3.2

              “The China Study links meat eating to a large range of illlnesses.”

              C’mon Ed, the China study.. hardly reliable, as shown here..

              https://www.weedemandreap.com/are-plant-based-diets-a-fad/

              • Ed

                Very reliable.
                Weedemreap sounds like it has an agenda.

                • mikes

                  Yes most probably but doesn’t everyone and all organizations these days..

                  But their analysis of the China study seems sound. (Admittedly I didn’t delve into it too deeply)

        • Ed 5.3.1.4

          Thank you

        • greywarshark 5.3.1.5

          Is shit good for growing vegetables? If not perhaps we can leave it out of the discourse. Every time you want to use the word put dildo, that would be funny.

    • mauī 5.4

      Welcome back Ed!

      • Puckish Rogue 5.4.1

        For me Ed is one of the main attractions on this site so I’m glad hes back…though maybe not for the reason he thinks 🙂

        • mauī 5.4.1.1

          Ed makes this place very entertaining I have to admit as well as highlighting the important issues.

          • Puckish Rogue 5.4.1.1.1

            You got it half right 🙂

            • reason 5.4.1.1.1.1

              Puckish thinks concern for the plight of society & other things like the destruction of the environment ….. is for losers.

              Puckish likes the entertainment of ganging up …. he’s a bit of a joker

              A good bastard …. if we leave out the ‘good’.

              He’s going to find trolling very hard now …. ‘Look at the polls’ was the only way he knew to win an argument …

              So in that spirit ….

              Puckish, …. is it true …. that the only time Judith Collins made National party popularity go up ….. was when Key sacked her ?.

              Or have their been small positive bumps for the Nacts …. when she leaves the country and recedes from view.

              Personally I’d like to see her in a Kauri stockade … where teenagers could throw near empty RTDs at her … but I’d keep the numbers limited to the same amount of victims Judith has caused

              • Puckish Rogue

                “Puckish thinks concern for the plight of society & other things like the destruction of the environment ….. is for losers.”
                Nope

                “Puckish likes the entertainment of ganging up …. he’s a bit of a joker”
                Only on those that can take it and dish it back

                “A good bastard …. if we leave out the ‘good’”
                My parents were both married to each other when I was born 🙂

                “He’s going to find trolling very hard now …. ‘Look at the polls’ was the only way he knew to win an argument …”

                True it is hard when the current government seems to be implementing so much of Nationals agenda

                “Puckish, …. is it true …. that the only time Judith Collins made National party popularity go up ….. was when Key sacked her ?.

                Or have their been small positive bumps for the Nacts …. when she leaves the country and recedes from view.”

                Shes never gone down in my estimation

                “Personally I’d like to see her in a Kauri stockade … where teenagers could throw near empty RTDs at her … but I’d keep the numbers limited to the same amount of victims Judith has caused”

                Advocating physical violence against a women, maybe have a look at this:

                http://areyouok.org.nz/

                • reason

                  Just so you can sleep at night Puck …. I’ve never engaged in any form of violence or threatening behavior against any female …. including verbal.

                  So Lets talk about real victims of violence ….with their real suffering … from beatings, rape and murder …. and the real involvement of Judith Collinss ….

                  Versus … your ( derail )concern, … for my Imaginary near empty aluminum RTD cans … of red bull size … thrown at her in my imagination …by her Real victims though….Woman and children mainly …

                  Get it ???? Real victims …. that neither you or Judith ‘fake stats’ Collins give a stuff about…Unless it gets political …… https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/70752097/government-aims-to-tackle-high-domestic-violence-rates

                  “In many respects, Judith Collins has been the worst Minister of Justice and Corrections New Zealand has ever had. She had to go – ”

                  The link between Alcohol abuse and violence is as clear as the RoastBusters rape boasting Facebook page ….. which stayed up for over a year …. despite complaints from victims ….. when Judith and National were in power…. I’m sure you spoke out against the police and rapists over this though …. embarrassing Judith like that.

                  So lets get back to Judith and the party you support …. while ‘abhorring’ violence and abuse …. or should that be that ‘ignoring’ ?

                  Why do you think National kept and Promoted Mike Sabin? … Puckish ?….Given the very real information they were aware of … and keeping secret from the people of New Zealand.

                  I think two brave children, not even old enough to vote …. saved NZ from National appointing someone who wears their rape culture so strongly … that its hard to tell it apart from actual abuse .

                  And Real abuse comes in many forms …. which is why I mentioned “Kauri”.

                  Do you think Puckish? …. that it is a form of abuse and violence …. for greedy rich people …. like Judith Collins. To strip mine a resource like Ancient Kauri …. from an area where the native people and their children …. are often disadvantaged by poverty?….. or is it just cruel?.

                  There was allegedly up to 80% non-compliance by the rich, the greedy and National government regulators …. In the swamp Kauri fraud rush.

                  Seeing as you care for children ….. you’d agree with me that Judiths Kauri logs should be seized …until legality can be established.

                  Or are you l;ike James Puckish? …. he does not think rich people stealing from poor people is abuse ……

                  His is a conscious choice …. but I have your cruelty drivers more pegged as banal indifference.

                  If we talk enough about Judith Collins …. from your reactions and replys … I’ll work you. out.

                  btw …Hows the polls 🙂

              • Peter

                (Puckish, …. is it true …. that the only time Judith Collins made National party popularity go up ….. was when Key sacked her ?.)

                HA HA I really liked that. Many a true word spoken jest.

            • Robert Guyton 5.4.1.1.1.2

              Why are you winky-winky half-saying what you mean, Puck? Wanting to seem a Man of Mystery, or not really sure what you are saying?

              • In Vino

                PR – “A good bastard …. if we leave out the ‘good’”
                My parents were both married to each other when I was born ”

                I suspect that the priest who wed them would subsequently have been defrocked.

        • Ed 5.4.1.2

          The comment count is certainly up!

      • Ed 5.4.2

        Thank you. Your support is most welcome.

  5. Ed 6

    Rachel Stewart wrote an excellent article in the Herald yesterday about addiction to social media.
    Her Wednesday column is usually thought provoking.

    She has since tweeted.
    “Here we are, more connected than ever before, yet lonelier and more isolated than ever too. It’s shaping up to be an endless rat wheel of circular emptiness.”

    Our atomised western ‘society ‘ can be explored in the brilliant ‘Century of Self’ by Adam Curtis.
    Recently Johann Hari has brought out a revelatory book called Lost Connections, which looks at depression and its link to Neoliberal Capitalism.

    Rachel, Adam and Johann all highly recommended.

  6. Re: 125th anniversary of woman’s suffrage in New Zealand – and still women lack equality!

    But I like this quote attributed to Marilyn Monroe:

    “Women who seek to be equal with men lack ambition.”

    • Carolyn_Nth 7.1

      🙂

      A brief history of International Women’s Day – 8 March:

      The idea of an International Women’s Day was inspired by America’s National Women’s Day, February 28, 1909, declared by the Socialist Party of America.

      The next year, the Socialist International met in Denmark and delegates approved the idea of an International Women’s Day.

      Not even a week after the first International Women’s Day, the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire killed 146, mostly young immigrant women, in New York City. That incident inspired many changes in industrial working conditions, and the memory of those who died has been often invoked as part of International Women’s Days from that point on.

      Especially in early years, International Women’s Day was connected with working women’s rights.

      Nevertheless, the purpose of the day remains:

      The purpose of International Women’s Day is to bring attention to the social, political, economic, and cultural issues that women face, and to advocate for the advance of women within all those areas.

      Social, political, economic and cultural issues are all inter-linked. Behind the economic reasons for inequalities of the workplace are social and cultural values that place “women’s work” as secondary and of low value. These values run through
      women’s traditionally designated role in the domestic sphere,
      the denigration and abuse of black, Maori, Pacific and immigrant women, dismissing their cultures and forcing them into designated subservient roles,
      the sexual abuse and exploitation of those with little power and/or status in the patriarchal competitive hierarchy,
      plus men’s domination of the political sphere.

      The social, political, economic and cultural all feed off each other.

      • Carolyn_Nth 7.1.1

        UK MP Mhairi Black’s speech – relates to Women’s Day [ warning – some graphic language; Trigger warning – talks about sexual abuse, rape, etc]

        Posted on her Twitter account today:

        Please be aware there is strong language throughout this video. My speech today in Misogyny as a Hate Crime debate.

        She talks about her own experiences a lot. She begins talking about the structural and cultural aspects of misogyny. The structural aspect begins back when all our structures were created. These structures are still with us today,

        … the economy, our legal systems, our work environment, our government. Everything was owned and created by men, with the false assumption that nuclear, heterosexual family was normal.

        So now we have begun to address some of these barriers. But fundamentally, [what some have?] tried to find ways to almost stuff women into this structure without fully reflecting on the fact that they’ve all been created in a very misogynistic time, and from a very patriarchal perspective.

      • miravox 7.1.2

        Social, political, economic and cultural issues are all inter-linked. Behind the economic reasons for inequalities of the workplace are social and cultural values that place “women’s work” as secondary and of low value. These values run through women’s traditionally designated role in the domestic sphere,
        the denigration and abuse of black, Maori, Pacific and immigrant women, dismissing their cultures and forcing them into designated subservient roles,
        the sexual abuse and exploitation of those with little power and/or status in the patriarchal competitive hierarchy…

        ^^This paragraph is so important.
        But I’m feeling rather disillusioned because all I’m seeing is a focus on men’s domination (culturally – as in harassment culture – and financially) in the political and corporate sphere.

        It’s hard today to believe that this day was promoted by socialist women. It seems the day has been hijacked by a professional elite and is quite useless in highlighting inequalities outside their own interests.

        The women who work in jobs that equate with the domestic sphere – jobs such as childcare, cooking, cleaning and serving – including serving up their bodies to the employers and customers who feel they have the right to freely touch and use them, women who can’t make the time or afford the cost, even if they were invited to attend, are invisible in [the coverage of?] all these events promoting International Women’s Day .

        • Carolyn_Nth 7.1.2.1

          Yes rape culture has been a major focus on social media in recent times.

          However, Julie AnNe Genter was reported to have referred to women’s pay. NewstalkZB reported today:

          Today marks International Women’s Day – and this year will be the 125th anniversary of New Zealand women winning the right to vote.

          It is also the first since the global #metoo movement began, which has seen many women step forwards to share their stories of sexual abuse.

          Genter says women should feel incredibly proud and empowered, but she says there’s still a lot of work to do.

          “A major area is fair pay, and it’s much worse for Maori and Pasifika women. Those women who have been most marginalised are the ones we need to prioritise.”

          Another area of concern is the treatment of women in the Pacific.

          The UN Women National Committee New Zealand says threats of violence, low pay and little to no representation in politics are issues women in the Pacific face on a daily basis.

          Voxy reports a PSA press release that focuses on working women and the gains and work still to be done.

          RNZ this morning with an interview with Julie Ann Genter.

          Partly because of the questions asked, Genter talks about sexual harassment in the workplace, closing the gender pay gap, women in senior management, women in politics.

          Genter shifts the focus and says that more importantly we need to focus on Māori and Pacific women who suffer from a much worse pay gap, and we need to prioritise the lowest paid women because they are the ones suffering the most. She mentions the minimum wage lift policy; union work on this.

          • miravox 7.1.2.1.1

            I don’t doubt Genter’s sincerity and it is her role to talk about prioritising low paid women.

            And the PSA press release – that’s never going to make the 6pm news, no matter how heartfelt.

            But I just feel something more is needed. We need more people in the professional sphere to give time, and maybe give up their seat, for the women Genter talking about. Just my opinion of course.

            • Carolyn_Nth 7.1.2.1.1.1

              Yes, we need to hear more from low paid women; from their unions; and more women from these backgrounds in parliament and as ministers.

        • weka 7.1.2.2

          Yes. I’m seeing some critique on twitter about ethnicity and gender too. I tend to not get too excited about IWD, because it does seem to be run by and for women of a certain class. Here’s an idea though. How about we work towards next IWD having a range of women authors writing for/on TS, including WOC and women who address various class issues, and other intersectionality/solidarity.

          I’d like to see women *supported here, rather than the constant battle against economics is King. I appreciate your comment because raises class issues (and political positioning) without trying to push women’s politics to the side or minimise them. I’d like to see more of that.

          • miravox 7.1.2.2.1

            Thanks weka, that is a great idea.

            I’m still working out what’s going on in NZ since returning after a long time away – despite thinking I was keeping up with things. I was disappointed in myself for being left in a position of complaining rather than positively contributing to the IWD discussion. It would be great to have a range of women’s contributions about the various issues you mention.

            Count me in.

            • weka 7.1.2.2.1.1

              Cheers miravox, really appreciate that.

              Unfortunately some of the middle class feminists have their work cut out for them at the moment. Alison Mau is getting backlash already for the #metoonz investigation.

              https://twitter.com/Alisonmau/status/971820233236168705

              I’ve got some thinking to do there about how those women can be supported as well as the issues you raised.

  7. Gristle 8

    Fletchers may have contractual indemnity over the quality (or lack thereof) associated with fixing damaged houses in Christchurch. However, this will not protect Fletchers from claims regarding the quality of the project management services they provided. News of ex-managers coming detailing stories about them being required to focus on throughput rather than quality and ignoring/denying variation requests to address damage opens up the possibility of litigation. Various contract and litigation lawyers would be discussing this possibility with EQC.

    The iron triangle of project management rules.

  8. Ad 9

    I h ave this feeling that this May we are in for one of those rare earthquake budgets that throws serious money about at a helluva lot of stuff:

    Overall core Crown tax was higher than expected by $0.9 billion, with source dedications and GST above forecast by $0.3 billion each, as the levels of employment and residential investment were above forecast. Customs and excise duties were also above forecast by $0.2 billion, as the tobacco duties seasonal peak was larger than expected.

    This has got to be the luckiest incoming government I’ve seen in my lifetime.

    • Craig H 9.1

      The 2008 incoming government was pretty lucky too…

    • Antoine 9.2

      Pleeeease can the new spending be of good quality

      A.

      • reason 9.2.1

        Nz was lucky at the start of the GFC …..

        Lucky that Labour left the Government books in good and better condition than when they took over …. despite having to repair the damage Nationals slash / burn / austerity / privitisation style of Government causes http://werewolf.co.nz/2017/08/bill-english-the-forgotten-history/

        …. Ignoring Nationals call for tax cuts to the rich …. Labour left the incoming national Government low debt and large leeway at the start of the GFC … as admitted by Bill English in a rare moment of honesty from him.

        We were Lucky the Chineese economy kept growing … and buying off us ….

        Lucky our biggest trading partner, …the Aussies,.. who were digging up their country and selling what is under their red dirt to China … were in the same boat of continuing Chinese orders for their exports.

        It was mixed luck though …. As Antoine would find out … if he were unlucky enough to be forced into wearing white disco pants and drinking our river water by me….He might learn about health and real wealth from a bit of NZ river water poisoning

        ,,,,,,, but I seriously hope they ( the Govt) don’t spend a cent more on his education ….

        It’s obviously a waste in his case ….for If intelligent thinking were a crime ………

        Antoines tough on crime.

        • Antoine 9.2.1.1

          Dude I only reminded you that the GFC was in 2008! No need to fly off the handle

          A.

          • reason 9.2.1.1.1

            The only thing ‘flying’ in my comment …. is the rate of liquid dysentery leaving your bum …. should you ingest poisoned NZ river water…. by my hand.

            I’m usually in a darkly humorous mood… when I mention white disco pants .. can I pretend your BM?.

            And it’s quite bizarre … when you think of it …. National have left our country in such a sorry state …. that people will soon be able to rob banks …. armed with loaded water pistols.

            Throw a water bomb …. and your a home grown terrorist .

            Shithard John

            • Antoine 9.2.1.1.1.1

              > The only thing ‘flying’ in my comment …. is the rate of liquid dysentery leaving your bum ….

              Contact RocketLab and tell them you have an idea to pitch

              A.

  9. Craig H 10

    Barry Soper with some harsh words about Amy Adams’ first comments as finance spokesperson:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12008408

    “Like a cracked record she mentioned debt and how bad it is for the economy, moaning about how it’s now going to be ratcheted up by the clueless coalition Cabinet.

    She seems to have forgotten what her predecessors, who she deified, inherited when they came to power in 2008.

    The debt was at just five and a half percent of what the country was worth, or GDP, down from 23 percent, and they grew it to around 30 percent, at one point borrowing $380 million a week.

    Okay so they had the global financial crisis to cope with and the earthquakes but they also inherited the China free trade deal, signed a month before they came to office. Slashing debt didn’t stop the Clark Labour Government breathing life into the ACC corpse and setting up the Cullen fund, now worth around $40 billion without contributions from National.

    Perhaps rather than harping on about the balance sheet, Adams should focus her attention on a more balanced society.”

  10. cleangreen 11

    https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2018/03/08/a-zero-carbon-act-for-new-zealand-environmental-defence-society/

    EDS – We strongly agree with that position of inclusion, as we need everyone to agree to the sharp change in slashing carbon emissions now otherwise inside five years we will be to late to stop the destructive effects of climate change “meltdown” where weather events severely disrupt our food supplies and then people will die from hunger.

    Transport emissions account for 40% of all carbon emissions produced today.

    Truck freight must be removed from freight and rail and shipping must both now become the “prime mover of all freight as trucks are 10 times more carbon emitters than any other freight system. Diesel must be slashed severely because ‘UK and EU are banning all diesel vehicles now as we speak so why aren’t we???

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/apr/04/diesel-vehicles-will-disappear-sooner-than-expected-says-eu-industry-chief

    Jacinda it was your first call to slash carbon emissions as you claimed “climate change is the “nuclear moment of our generation”.

    “lets do this”

  11. Ad 12

    The Disability Commissioner at the Human Rights Commission has come out strongly opposed to the End Of Life Choice Bill.

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1803/S00098/end-of-life-choice-bill-poses-significant-risks-to-disabled.htm

    Key recommendations made by the Disability Rights Commissioner in her submission are that:
    • The Bill should not be passed into law in its current form.
    • The process and proposed safeguards outlined in the Bill are inadequate. In particular:
    o the Bill does not protect the interests of disabled and vulnerable members of the community
    o It contains insufficient provisions and protections around matters such as: the provision of appropriate information; informed consent; assessing capacity; determining if undue influence or coercion exist. There is also no “cooling off” period and the oversight/approval mechanisms are inadequate.
    • Legislative change in relation to end of life choice cannot be considered in isolation from the standard and current services and resources available to those who experience serious but non-terminal conditions or palliative care services.

    Makes me wonder whether this Bill is going to pass its BORA tests.

    • Antoine 12.1

      Who wrote it?

      A.

      • Ad 12.1.1

        The Disability Commissioner.

        • Antoine 12.1.1.1

          Sorry, I mean who wrote the Bill.

          A.

          • veutoviper 12.1.1.1.1

            The End of Life Choice Bill was initiated by David Seymour (ACT) as a Members Bill in 2017. It was drawn from the Members Bills Ballot (the biscuit tin ballot) and introduced on 8 June 2017.

            It passed its First Reading in the House on 13 December 2017 and referred to the Justice Committee for select committee consideration. Public submissions to the Committee closed on 6 March. The Justice Committee is required to report back to the House by 27 September 2018.

            Here is the link to the Parliament website for the Bill, with links to the actual Bill and other information about the Bill.

            https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/bills-and-laws/bills-proposed-laws/document/BILL_74307/end-of-life-choice-bill

            • Antoine 12.1.1.1.1.1

              Sounds like he stuffed it up potentially then

              • veutoviper

                Very few Bills make it through the consideration process without changes, corrections etc. Particularly Members Bills where the initiator has much more limited resources in the drafting stages of the Bill, than is the case for Government Bills.

                The whole purpose of the consideration/checks and balances process for Bills is to iron out any problems with the original draft, decide whether the premise of the Bill is valid, feasible and acceptable, and redraft the Bill if necessary.

                If a Bill is really stuffed up it will usually not make it passed the first hurdle – the First Reading.

                The Disability Commissioner’s recommendations do not necessarily rule out the current draft Bill being amended to meet these recommendations – nor those of other submissions on the Bill.

                Now that submissions are closed the really hard work begins for parliamentary and other staff (eg in relevant Govt Depts) supporting the Justice Committee of assessing all of these submissions, pulling theses into summaries, and drafting options and recommendations for the consideration of the Justice Committee. Often a lot of midnight oil involved.

    • Statements like “the Bill does not protect the interests of disabled and vulnerable members of the community” and “the oversight/approval mechanisms are inadequate” are matters of opinion, in which Paula Tesoriero’s opinions are worth no more than anyone else’s.

      The actual content of the submission is the complaint of insufficient attention paid to “the provision of appropriate information; informed consent; assessing capacity; determining if [sic] undue influence or coercion exist.” Those should be able to be taken care of as part of the legislative process.

      • adam 12.2.1

        Love the whole dismissal of the concerns of the disable community their Pscho Milt.

        Such an arrogant position, good on you.

        When disable feel they are not being listened to, it’s good to know a person they expect to help raise up their voice, is dismissed so casually out of hand.

        Stick with your agenda, and bugger anyone else!

        People really respect that kind of male driven ego in politics. Who cares if it’s international women’s day. You opinion is what counts right, right…

        • Antoine 12.2.1.1

          He’s not dismissing the concerns. He’s just setting out the substantive ones and the process through which they can be addressed.

          A.

          • weka 12.2.1.1.1

            PM was incredibly dismissive. He said that “Paula Tesoriero’s opinions are worth no more than anyone else’s.”

            I take from that that he believes that the expert opinion of the person who has been tasked by the government to attend to the safety of disabled people is on par with the opinions of people who don’t understand disability issues, or don’t care about them, or are actively bigoted against them, or believe that it would be better if disabled people didn’t exist.

            That is huge. It’s not new for disabled people, it’s actually pretty standard, which is part of why the HRC has a disability commissioner in the first place – too many NZers are dismissive of the concerns of actual disabled people.

            As I commented below, PM believes that the concerns of disabled people will be met, simply because the legislative process “should” take them into account. He’s either incredibly naive about how legislation comes into being (unlikely), or he’s ok with the needs to disabled people not being adequately met, in which case, dismissive.

            • Psycho Milt 12.2.1.1.1.1

              PM was incredibly dismissive. He said that “Paula Tesoriero’s opinions are worth no more than anyone else’s.”

              I said that because it’s true. As we’ve gone into on this blog many times, you’re not entitled to your opinion, you’re entitled to what you can argue for. The Disability Commissioner’s job isn’t to give opinions, because opinion is worthless. They’re paid to make arguments on behalf of disabled people. That’s why I weeded out the bits of her submission that were opinions and focused on her argument.

              As I commented below, PM believes that the concerns of disabled people will be met, simply because the legislative process “should” take them into account.

              No, I believe that the issues the Disability Commissioner mentions can be dealt with via the legislative process, if submissions focus on dealing with those issues rather than on trying to have the bill thrown out. It’s up to the HRC whether they’re willing to engage with that or not.

              • weka

                Oh good. Anti-vaxxer opinions are just as valid as Lance O’Sullivan’s. Glad we got that clear and we don’t have to differentiate any more between expert opinion and uninformed opinion. Out the window with scientific literacy and opinion based on evidence vs opinion based on faith. All good then.

                “That’s why I weeded out the bits of her submission that were opinions and focused on her argument.”

                No, you conflated a press release with a submission.

                “No, I believe that the issues the Disability Commissioner mentions can be dealt with via the legislative process, if submissions focus on dealing with those issues rather than on trying to have the bill thrown out. It’s up to the HRC whether they’re willing to engage with that or not.”

                Ok, so I can go with incredibly naive and callous. We already know that it’s possible for bad laws to be written, no matter the calibre of the submissions.

                Have you read the DC’s actual submission?

                • People don’t get a free pass for their opinions due to being an expert. But you’re right, I’m conflating a press release with a submission – presenting arguments isn’t the purpose of a press release so it was unfair of me to criticise one for lack of arguments.

                  The submission itself has the same problem with it as the opposition to pregnancy screening for genetic defects – items 16 and 22 in particular show that same approach of wanting everyone’s rights restricted because allowing them their rights might make some disabled people feel bad. The idea of the government telling someone who wants to die “No to assisted suicide, because we don’t want you setting a bad example for the other people in this situation” isn’t a big improvement on the current flat “No to assisted suicide.”

                  • weka

                    “might make some disabled people feel bad”

                    There’s the dismissive thing again. If you think this is about disabled people feeling bad you really have no idea what is going on.

                    When I see pro-euthanasia advocates willing to include disabled people in general human rights, I’ll be more supportive (I’m in favour of euthanasia legislation, but I’m not convinced we are there yet as a society in terms of making this a good law).

                • Planet Earth

                  Psycho Milt – “you’re not entitled to your opinion, you’re entitled to what you can argue for.”
                  Weka – “Anti-vaxxer opinions are just as valid as Lance O’Sullivan’s.”

                  Who to believe?

                  • weka

                    I *really hate people misquoting me. I’m not sure what you were trying to do with that comment, but just to be really clear, my words that you have selective quoted were in a comment that was highly sarcastic to make a point.

                    • Planet Earth

                      1. I didn’t “misquote” you, those were your words. “selective quoted” certainly, that was the sentence I didn’t understand.
                      2. If you are being sarcastic please use a tag.
                      3. Your point? That you agreed with PM’s “you’re not entitled to your opinion, you’re entitled to what you can argue for.”? I genuinely don’t get what you were trying to say here?

                    • weka

                      If you don’t understand then ask. Please don’t take my words out of context and repeat them elsewhere in a thread in a way that changes the meaning.

                      The sarcastic tag wasn’t needed because it was obvious from the context that I was using rhetoric to counter what PM had said. He argued that all opinion is the same. I gave some examples from previous conversations that were silly as a way of pointing out that there is such a thing as expert opinion and that it is meaningful.

        • Psycho Milt 12.2.1.2

          So, your point is that I’m arrogant, I don’t listen, I’m dismissive, I don’t care about anyone else, my politics are male-ego-driven, I’m guilty of an unspecified transgression against International Women’s Day and I’m convinced only my opinion matters. I’m not sure that any of that will be of use to readers considering the merits of the bill. Did you have anything to contribute beyond irrelevant personality assessments?

          • adam 12.2.1.2.1

            Indeed, and you decided to avoid it.

            I’ve tried with you the logical approach, but battering past your ego is hard work. So how about you have a wee look at what you said, and get why it was more than a bit shocking, and garnered such a response from me.

      • Ad 12.2.2

        The Prime Minister’s announcement regarding an amendment to the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act (BORA) was welcomed by the Human Rights Commission – for precisely this kind of eventuality.

        The amendment, which has been agreed in principle by Cabinet, will provide a statutory basis for senior Courts to issue declarations of inconsistency when they believe that legislation passed by Parliament is inconsistent with rights protected by the BORA.

        So this is a marker from the Human Rights Commission that they could take the governrment to court about laws that they view as inconsistent with the Bill fo Rights Act.

        That’s why this signal from the Disability Commissioner on the End of Life Choice Bill is a clear marker. of intent.

        • veutoviper 12.2.2.1

          Spot on Ad.

          I would also point out that the disability community has in Paula Tesoriero probably the most highly qualified people possible for the position of Disability Commissioner IMO. This is both in relation to her own personal experience of disability and, her massive achievements in the sporting field (cycling) despite this; and her legal qualifications and work experience and achievements in public service policy development, implementation and management.

          I had the honour – and pleasure – of working with Paula for a time and I can assure you she is more than capable of standing up for what she believes in and fighting for those she represents.

          • veutoviper 12.2.2.1.1

            EDIT – should read most highly qualified ‘person’ – not ‘people’.

        • mikes 12.2.2.2

          “this is a marker from the Human Rights Commission that they could take the government to court about laws that they view as inconsistent with the Bill of Rights Act.”

          This seems to be inaccurate. From what Ive read of the amendment, it simply means that the government would have to revisit the legislation, they wouldn’t have to change it if they didn’t want to. Currently, the attorney general I think declares inconsistencies with the BORA within new legislation, this amendment just means that the court will be able to do that to, it doesn’t mean anything will change.

          https://www.justice.govt.nz/justice-sector-policy/constitutional-issues-and-human-rights/bill-of-rights-compliance-reports/advice/

          In New Zealand, peculiarly, parliament is still sovereign and holds sway over even the highest courts. The government cant be overruled by a court in regards to legislation. In NZ parliament/government is the highest authority.

      • weka 12.2.3

        “Those should be able to be taken care of as part of the legislative process.”

        That was the sound of disabled people throughout the country shuddering at your casual use of the word ‘should’.

      • Gabby 12.2.4

        Can you get another opinion?

        • veutoviper 12.2.4.1

          Gabby – I assume you mean another opinion from that of the Disability Commissioner, which was a submission to the Justice Select Committee on the End of Life Choice Bill.

          Public submissions on the Bill closed 6 March and information about the number of submissions made does not yet appear to have been released, but I would assume there will be many, many submissions expressing many different opinions on the Bill.

          It is likely to be a big topic of discussion including in the media over the next few months.

          The Justice Select Committee has until 27 Sept to assess the written submissions, hold public hearings and hear oral submissions and then draft its recommendations for the report back to Parliament.

  12. Puckish Rogue 13

    Ok so something completely non controversial but Ross Taylor is someone to be respected for his sporting prowess and how he conducts himself in general, a fine sporting role model

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2018/03/07/injured-ross-taylor-leads-new-zealand-victory-england/

    and then you have this:

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/cricket/102074658/david-warner-cops-heavy-fine-for-durban-stoush-quinton-de-kock-to-appeal

  13. You have to wonder how James Shaw managed to get this one past Labour and NZ First:

    New Zealand adopts International Open Data Charter

    By opening up public agencies’ data, Mr Shaw says the government is encouraging openness as the default setting for government agencies to make non-personal, unclassified and non-confidential data freely available to anyone to use and share.

    One imagines various government departments kicking off urgent projects to classify as much of their data as possible as soon as possible…

    • Antoine 14.1

      Sounds like a great initiative

    • alwyn 14.2

      What a totally meaningless Charter, and Press Release.
      The default setting in Government in New Zealand is pretty much defined as being “Everything is confidential unless we specifically say otherwise”.
      It is rather like that old song by the Beverly Sisters. The song said something like
      “It’s illegal, it’s immoral or it makes you fat”
      If you ask for anything from a Department you are told, and you will continual to be told
      “It’s personal, it’s classified or it’s confidential”
      Look at the impossible task that MPs have getting answers to written questions. Just how do you think anything is going to change?

  14. adam 16

    More industrial news. Apps, you may like them, but some just mean people are paid bloody awful wages and treated like scum. The whole ‘new’ e-economy is just like the old one – based purely on exploitation.

    https://libcom.org/news/gig-economy-strike-bologna-riders-union-05032018

  15. eco maori 17

    You guys gave me a sore face again Rumble radio station I won’t say to much as it mite get to hot in the studio lol
    Kia kaha Ka kite ano

  16. Puckish Rogue 18

    https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2018/03/an_acting_pm_who_cant_talk_on_anything_the_government_is_doing.html

    Normally I’d be more outraged but since the present government is basically National-lite I’m more…meh about it all

    • weka 18.1

      your comment is utterly meaningless PR, as we can’t see what you are referring to.

      • Puckish Rogue 18.1.1

        Ah ok fair enough, this is from the link:

        “Mike Hosking on NewstalkZB revealed during his breakfast show that Labour’s Acting Prime Minister is not allowed to talk on any current issues around the Government because he hasn’t been briefed on them!!”

        “Here’s what Newstalk ZB were told they could not ask the Acting Prime Minister questions on:

        the foreign housing ban
        the Tax Working Group
        Pay equity
        Tariffs

        They also revealed that the PM herself wouldn’t appear on the show except to talk about her tour of the Pacific – she wouldn’t talk about any other issues.”

        “So a PM who won’t talk about anything but her Pacific tour and an Acting PM who is deemed incapable of talking on any of the Government’s policies or issues.”

        Theres also audio to listen to as well

        • weka 18.1.1.1

          lol, but now I can’t get past you referencing National’s propagandist talking about Mike Hosking as if Hosking has any credibility.

          That really is very funny PR.

        • adam 18.1.1.2

          So where were you the last 9 years?

          Really don’t remember seeing you complain about national party doing this.

          Bit late to start complaining now.

          • Puckish Rogue 18.1.1.2.1

            “So where were you the last 9 years?”

            “Really don’t remember seeing you complain about national party doing this.”

            Sure didn’t but I did enough comments on here, over the last nine years, complaining about National dodging questions 🙂

            “Bit late to start complaining now.”

            I’m not, I’m just a bit meh about it but I am kinda curious to see if anyone will mention anything about how a certain, now, PM wanted this to be an open and transparent government and how they feel about this looking like its not an open and transparent government

            • adam 18.1.1.2.1.1

              She is being open and transparent about her trip around the Pacific.

              Just don’t want to deal with hacks like kiwiblog playing their dirty politics whilst she away, I’d say smart politics.

              • Puckish Rogue

                That is gold, absolutely priceless 🙂

                • adam

                  Better than being a supporter of dirty politics – which I might add you could be labeled with, for pushing a link to a site associated with that type of politics.

                  • Puckish Rogue

                    Here’s what Newstalk ZB were told they could not ask the Acting Prime Minister questions on:

                    the foreign housing ban
                    the Tax Working Group
                    Pay equity
                    Tariffs

                    adams response: “She is being open and transparent about her trip around the Pacific.”

                    I’m still genuinely smiling about this comment 🙂

        • Stuart Munro 18.1.1.3

          I’m sure they can set up a session where those things are discussed within a reasonable timeframe. If not, sure there’s reason to complain. But providing gotcha moments for a crap outfit like ZB isn’t really any minister’s job.

    • Robert Guyton 18.2

      Wasn’t the last one, “Labour-lite” – well, according to Kiwiblog regulars, it was.
      In any case, why “outraged”? Do you have anger issues?

      • Puckish Rogue 18.2.1

        Its almost as if theres not a great deal of difference between National and Labour…

        • Fireblade 18.2.1.1

          Puckish Rogue will vote Labour in 2020 then. If there’s not a great deal of difference, vote for the winning team, not the B team. So glad you’ve seen the light.

        • Robert Guyton 18.2.1.2

          As The Greens have always said, Pucky – doubtless you admire them for their perceptiveness; remember “Pepsi and Coke”?

        • Ed 18.2.1.3

          That’s the problem.
          Tweedledee and tweedledum.

          And neoliberal capitalism runs amok.

  17. Bruce 19

    For those following the Russian interference in US here is interesting clip from Andrew Drummond facebook page regarding the Belarus lady held in Thailand.

  18. adam 20

    Still getting the odd whiff from the scrap metal fire here in Auckland.

    It’s still burning.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/local-news/102075184/scrap-metal-blaze-burning-for-second-day

  19. Carolyn_Nth 21

    Just up on RNZ: ;Airbnb owners cream millions in Auckland rent;

    However, the research reportedly concludes this is only a very small percentage of Auckland rentals, and is not impacting on the rental situation, except on Waiheke Island.

    Surely any properties taken away from the rental stock in Auckland sill have some impact?

    In the year to last September, 12,370 Auckland properties had at least one booking through the Airbnb website, which is used mainly by visitors to the city.

    Of those, 6105 rented out an entire property and collectively earned a total of $89.8 million.

    A similar number rented out individual rooms in a property, with a small number offering shared rooms.

    The number of entire properties rented full-time on Airbnb rose by 154 percent in a year.

    Eighty percent of Auckland’s entire-property listings were in the central Waitematā Local Board area, which includes the CBD and tourist hotspot Waiheke Island.
    ….
    Across Auckland, researchers Penelope Tuatagaloa and Brian Osborne found the renting of entire homes on Airbnb represented less than one percent of the rental property market.

    “These findings suggest that Airbnb full-time listings … are likely to have had no or a minimal impact on the private residential market at a macro level.”

    Researchers found no current impact on house prices generally, but warned that in popular areas, at a time of housing shortages, the earning potential from Airbnb could fuel already high house prices.

    • weka 21.1

      I started reading it. Did they look at full time AirBnB only? ie. excluded part time AirBnB? The part time ones are still not available for permanent tenants.

      Also, did they look at the other nightly rental systems in Ak?

      • Carolyn_Nth 21.1.1

        The full report is here [includes a literature review and some other interesting details]

        They only looked at Airbnb and “full time” listings – not ones that offered a room in a house for instance:
        pp:v &28 have the definition they used of “full time” listing.

        Our analysis used the methodology developed by Wachsmuth et al., (2017). Their definition of a full-time listing is: it is for an entire place (not just a room within a larger unit); it has been booked for 60 days or more in the year; and it has been available to be booked for 120 days or more during the year.

        p29:

        The distribution of full-time listings by number of bedrooms is similar to that of entire place listings where the majority were two bedrooms or less. As noted earlier, this suggests Airbnb listings could be impacting on this sector of the private residential rental market (units with two bedrooms or less) which may already be pushed for capacity.

        They say online listings for tourist accommodation is a growing thing, and more research is needed into other kinds of listings – not just AirBnB.

        The report also says:

        In New Zealand, Airbnb rental income is taxable under the Income Tax Act 2007. Airbnb rentals whose gross rental income exceeds the threshold of $60,000 are also required to be registered and to pay goods and services tax (Home Legal, 2017). Taxes are administered by central government through the Inland Revenue Department.

        In addition, local councils may also impose additional requirements for visitor accommodation such as business rate charges and/or resource consent application charges.

        In June 2017, Auckland Council approved a targeted rate on commercial accommodation providers. It is currently assessing a proposal for the inclusion of online accommodation providers under this targeted rate (Niall, 2017). This work involves looking at how to identify individuals and groups who are renting on Airbnb, determining the level of threshold in which to apply the business rate on short-term rental accommodations and how this rule will be monitored and enforced on an ongoing basis.

        The report says the latter (identifying and monitoring renters) is difficult to do.

        • weka 21.1.1.1

          Looking at full time only renders the research much less useful. Worse, they don’t appear to have taken that into account in their reporting 🙁

        • mikes 21.1.1.2

          “also required to be registered and to pay goods and services tax”

          I think they mean that they are required to include a GST component in their invoices to customers and then pass that GST they collect onto the government?

          This seems to be a common misconception even amongst small business owners. They don’t have to pay GST (other than on their purchases), they have to collect it for the government. Amazing how many small business owners still seem to treat GST they collect as if it is their own income, spend it and then get a shock when it’s time to pass it on to the government.

      • Antoine 21.1.2

        > The part time ones are still not available for permanent tenants.

        But they can be owner occupied, with the owner putting the place on AirBNB when they are away on holiday. That’s not doing permanent renters any harm.

        A.

        • weka 21.1.2.1

          that’s right, and it would have been useful if the research had looked at those issues. The pertinent one being how many houses have moved from having permanent tenants?

          • Antoine 21.1.2.1.1

            That’s right. With that research question, you also correctly move away from dwellings that would not have been built if not for AirBNB, and dwellings that were previously for short term rental through a different channel.

            (Mind you, I still disagree with the underlying premise that AirBNB should be regulated if it reduces the supply of long term rentals. Don’t think we’ll see eye to eye on that one though.)

            A.

            • weka 21.1.2.1.1.1

              that’s right, I place the human right to a home far above the right to make a passive or semi-passive income from housing.

              • Antoine

                Whereas I put someone’s right to their own property, higher than someone else’s right to that property. So there it stands.

                A.

                • weka

                  at the expense of general human rights. It’s ok, I get it, lots of people favour capitalism over humanitarianism.

                  • Antoine

                    Good, you understand.

                    A.

                    • Carolyn_Nth

                      I think you missed the element of sarcasm

                    • Antoine

                      I serenely sailed above it.

                    • weka

                      I wasn’t being sarcastic. There are people who do in fact think that ownership of property should take considerable precedent over human rights to things like food and shelter. This is the NZ we live in.

                      I think it’s useful to have those lines clear when we debate. That’s the clearest I’ve seen it between myself and Antoine.

                    • Carolyn_Nth

                      Fair enough, weka.

                      But, “understanding” doesn’t necessarily mean agreement.

                      If what you suspect is true, Antoine, then it’s very sad. It’s certainly not humane.

                    • Antoine

                      I suspect my view is more common in present day NZ than yours, too.

                      A.

                    • weka

                      obviously. Hence we have a neoliberal government and an intractable housing crisis as well as entrenched poverty*. Which makes it very easy to say to you that you are part of the problem.

                      *and of course the looming catastrophe that is climate change.

                    • weka

                      @Carolyn, I took Antoine’s “Good, you understand” comment to be an acknowledgement that we sit on opposite sides of a line.

                    • Antoine

                      > you are part of the problem

                      Hey, I rent out 100% of the dwellings I own to long-term renters, and I voted Green. That all ought to get me off the hook a bit.

                      Anyway I think the real problem is not enough dwellings. (Edit: I.e. if we had more houses and apartments in NZ, there’d be enough for all the owner-occupiers, the long-term renters and the short-term visitors too. The AirBNB thing is just a symptom of the general housing shortage.)

                      A.

                    • Antoine

                      Hey, Carolyn. Thought experiment.

                      Suppose there was an elderly couple that owned two houses – one in town, and a bach at the beach. Currently the bach is vacant when they’re not using it.

                      Do you think it would be right for the Government to compel them to get long-term tenants in one of the two houses (or, failing that, to sell the bach)?

                      If your answer is “no”, then you’re on Team Antoine.

                      If “yes”, then Team Weka I guess, but I doubt there’s many others in there with you guys.

                      A.

                    • weka

                      That you vote Green is your saving grace Antoine, but that only gets you so far.

                      Suppose there was an elderly couple that owned two houses – one in town, and a bach at the beach. Currently the bach is vacant when they’re not using it.

                      Do you think it would be right for the Government to compel them to get long-term tenants in one of the two houses (or, failing that, to sell the bach)?

                      If your answer is “no”, then you’re on Team Antoine.

                      If “yes”, then Team Weka I guess, but I doubt there’s many others in there with you guys.

                      You know how I really dislike people misrepresenting my politics and views?

                      I think holiday houses that are actually holiday houses should be excluded (and have argued as much on TS).

                      I’m assuming they live in the house btw. But your framing kind of suggests they don’t, so I probably would be ok with legislation that required the second empty house to be rented out if it were in an area where there was a housing shortage. The number of people who have two empty houses is going to be pretty small.

                • jcuknz

                  As the father of a couple in this business and aware that they were trying to create their retirement income I am with Antoine on this. And view the petty snipeing of those trying to take over the property with disgust and even more distaste for the Councils on the make which had made the property unprofitable and now sold.
                  So victory for the do-nothing-ites over productive and caring folk. who will have to find another way to care for their old age.
                  Having looked at the Airbnb webpage I doubt if many locals will have properties able to be rented by locals …. does seem to be “cut off your nose to smite your face” carry-on.
                  The ‘kids’ property was a simple home not like most I saw on the web.

                  • Carolyn_Nth

                    I’m not talking about taking people’s property off them.

                    But if people are renting out to AirBnB, when they could be renting long term to locals, then, in a housing crisis there should be regulations preventing it, and requiring the property to be used for renting to locals.

                    I don’t agree with a society where there is such a strong focus on ownership of property. Consequently, I have ever bought a property.

                    However, I live in a society where people consider it their right to own property. So, I live with that. But I would like to see the shift away from that to a focus on securely and safely housing all people first. This requires a cultural shift as much as a legislative one.

                    I fundamentally disagree with putting “someone’s right to their own property, higher than someone else’s right to that property. ”

                    It’s a basic philosophical value – European culture went off the rails, and set up the conditions for vast inequalities when the commons were enclosed and became co-opted as private property. Thus basically “property is theft”.

                    I value humane behaviour towards all in society over an individual’s property ownership.

                    I would like to see a change in mind-set rather than compulsion.

                    • Antoine

                      @Carolyn

                      I don’t see how you reconcile “I would like to see a change in mind-set rather than compulsion” with “if people are renting out to AirBnB, when they could be renting long term to locals, then, in a housing crisis there should be regulations preventing it, and requiring the property to be used for renting to locals.”

                      The regulations you suggest are a form of compulsion.

                      > I value humane behaviour towards all in society over an individual’s property ownership.

                      What is humane?

                      To me, taking away people’s rights to keep their own stuff and do what they want with it, is inhumane.

                      Protecting people’s property rights is the second most important job of government (after protecting people’s life and limb).

                      A.

                    • weka

                      At the very least, regulate so that houses let for nightly rentals over a certain number of nights per year have to register as a business, pay tax, pay commercial rates etc. Have councils do major education work around the housing crisis, community and what is needed to solve that. Offer incentives to people to put their rentals (room or house) into longer term rentals. Be creative and make a system that gets the kind of society we want.

                      If houses in areas with a housing shortage are being left empty, ghost houses, then regulate that. Don’t have to confiscate, just do increasingly punitive fines. Exempt holiday houses that are used as such by the owners, assuming they are not empty 50 weeks of the year.

                      Cap rents.

                      Build more social housing to take the pressure off tenants.

                      Of course you will argue against most of that because you are part of the rentier class who believes that property rights and the ability to have passive and semi-passive income takes priority over kids living in mouldy houses or cars in the middle of winter and dying.

                    • Carolyn_Nth

                      What weka said @ 9 March 9.27am

                      Plus, Antoine, society has all sorts of regulations and laws, which do act as a form of compulsion – from road rules and zoning regulations to the rent contract I need to sign in order to rent the place I live in.

                      At the moment the rental laws and contracts favour landlords. The situation is dire for many renters, especially those on low incomes (including the working poor and beneficiaries).

                      And even those of us who are middle class renters and fairly well off, are in a somewhat precarious position, as will more people if the situation doesn’t improve.

                      Things need to change. People are dying before their time, getting ill, having their life choices restricted, and are working hard at jobs that provide a meagre income – incomes that barely cover the rent let alone food and bills.

                      I think weka provided a good balance of carrot and stick for landlords and tourist accommodation providers.

                      I am certainly not talking about taking people’s property off them as has been suggested. Also, some areas of the country where people have holiday homes and/or provide airbnb, are not areas with work and infrastructure that would enable low income people to live there. So there would be no benefit to society in taking their properties off them, or stopping them providing airbnb.

                      A lot of Kiwis with a bit of collateral have got into being landlords or accommodation providers because of the current state of our laws and incentives. There is too much incentive to become a landlord, and not enough for people to put their wealth/money into far more productive enterprises. As a result, the whole of society suffers.

                      When some people are getting ill, or having other life choices restricted, it impacts on the whole society, it’s infrastructure and economy.

                  • Molly

                    “So victory for the do-nothing-ites over productive and caring folk. who will have to find another way to care for their old age.”
                    Your children, who are in this business, are finding profit in that business because those who rent from them are paying a higher proportion of their wages to do so.

                    Do nothing-ites? That term indicates a strong belief in the need to accumulate for oneself. At present, this attitude has reduced access of many NZers to healthy, affordable housing. I don’t attribute this to those who choose to follow the immigration, state housing, financial, taxation and economic policies that encourage this, but they should at least acknowledge that the more they profit from this situation, that ‘increase’ is paid for by someone – somewhere.

                    Air b’n’b is in some parts an easy political target. Because people with more than one home, can rest easy and say ‘yes, tax them. Locals are missing out…’. But the problem is deeper. All of us who have benefitted from rising house prices have ‘gained’ that money at someone else’s expense.

                    If we can’t understand that, we won’t solve the crisis.

                    • Antoine

                      > Air b’n’b is in some parts an easy political target.

                      Ya reckon?

                      I’d like to see a government try it

                      A.

                    • Molly

                      Nothing to say about the rest of the comment, Antoine?

                    • Antoine

                      I think I see the urge to accumulate as a fundamentally healthy thing. Sure you can go overboard with it, but, within reasonable limits, it is the driver of a lot of the good that happens in the world.

                      A.

                    • Molly

                      “I think I see the urge to accumulate as a fundamentally healthy thing”
                      OK, thanks. Some questions though, so that I can understand where you are coming from.

                      A fundamentally healthy thing for whom? The accumulating individual, or the society in which they live?

                      How does this accumulation contribute to health?

                      Do you believe that this ‘urge’ is conditioned, or instinctual? or even fear driven?

                    • Antoine

                      1. Both the individual and the society

                      2. The desire to accumulate is one of the main drivers that makes people work. A healthy society is based on lots of work of various kinds.

                      3. I think it’s conditioned. I believe individuals in primitive societies have little desire to accumulate. Could be wrong though.

                    • Molly

                      Thanks Antoine. I appreciate your response, but still don’t really see where you are coming from.

                      How do you believe it benefits the individual? and society?

                      Why do you think it is healthy?

                      If you believe it is conditioned, why does this conditioning occur?

                      Don’t need any links, just interested in your thoughts.

                    • Antoine

                      It seems straightforward, a concrete example may help.

                      Think of a heart surgeon. She trained hard for many years, she cures lots of people, she earns a lot of money and owns 2 houses, a bach and a boat.

                      If she had not been able to accumulate the houses, bach and boat – would she have bothered to train hard and perform lots of operations? – Maybe depending on her motivation, but more probably not.

                      If she had not trained hard and performed lots of operations, NZ would have been worse off.

                      A.

                    • Molly

                      “If she had not been able to accumulate the houses, bach and boat – would she have bothered to train hard and perform lots of operations? – Maybe depending on her motivation, but more probably not.

                      If she had not trained hard and performed lots of operations, NZ would have been worse off.”

                      Is this a serious comment? That her motivation to perform heart surgery is linked to a desire to own houses and a bach?

                      You have not explained why that desire for property is good to indulge in. Rather you have proposed a scenario completed unrelated to the topic at hand.

                      Are you able to articulate why the property accumulation is a good thing – in and of itself?

                    • Antoine

                      > Are you able to articulate why the property accumulation is a good thing – in and of itself?

                      I thought I had!

                      People work to get more money to own more things. This is good because it means work gets done.

                      I can’t explain it any more simply.

                      A.

                    • Molly

                      “People work to get more money to own more things. This is good because it means work gets done.

                      I can’t explain it any more simply.”

                      Hey Antoine.

                      I don’t think you have explained why. And I don’t think that ‘owning more things’ is necessarily a fundamental, or even a primary reason why people work. Many work in order to be independent, to provide a service and to spend time doing things they value. Accumulation of stuff, is a possible reason, but not necessarily a universal one.

                      You also don’t differentiate between different types of ‘work’. There are some industries, professions and jobs that add to the crises we face to our environment and our communities. These costs get externalised to the wider society, but in reality it would be better in those cases if “less work gets done”.

                      Some of the professions that give a greater benefit, do not receive the remuneration that would allow them to ‘own more things’. Hospital cleaners, for example, perform a service that done well has multiple benefits for patients, hospital staff, health outcomes and financial budgets for hospitals in terms of reduced infections. Yet, they are often minimum wage workers.

                      It is too simplistic to take your view, which does not stand up to much scrutiny.

                      It doesn’t even touch on the moral issues of individual accumulation of housing, during a housing crisis. And if you agree with thinking that access to affordable, stable, healthy housing is a basic requirement for people to live connected, balanced lives.

                  • mikes

                    “So victory for the do-nothing-ites over productive and caring folk”

                    Who are you talking about when you say that? Renters? If so, are you seriously suggesting that because someone has to rent a house or is unable to find somewhere to live that they are unproductive, or uncaring??

                    “…which had made the property unprofitable and now sold.”

                    Good. Houses should be for New Zealander’s to live in, not for greedy profit making. Talk about unproductive.

                    • Carolyn_Nth

                      jcuknz is opposing “do-nothing-ites” with “productive and caring folk”.

                      Yet, as far as I can see, this is claiming those who spend their time doing something to benefit and are themselves and those nearest to them, are producers.

                      yet many not-acquiring-more-stuff-for-themselves people spend their time not only caring for their nearest and dearest, but caring and working for the benefit of all of society.

                      Antoine posits that acquisition of stuff is a natural human trait. Yet, the evidence shows, in human history, that many seem hard wired to selflessly work for the betterment of the whole society.

                    • Antoine

                      Funnily enough I was just saying to Molly that I thought the desire to accumulate was drummed into us by society, rather than being instinctual. Could be wrong though.

                • mikes

                  I agree with that.

                  Fixing a problem by diminishing the rights of any individual or group of people is not a healthy thing (IMO).

                  Which is why the government (taxpayers) needs to step in and fill the gap for those who don’t have anywhere to call home by providing a home for them rather than creating regulations which might deprive someone of their legally owned property rights.

                  If that means more income tax or (preferably) a wealth tax on those who can afford it, in order to ensure everyone has a home, then so be it.

                  I don’t include corporations (legal persons) in my second paragraph. I don’t believe corporations should be afforded the rights of real human beings and am happy for regulations which make corporations or companies put real people before profit.

                  So if the AirB&B is registered as a business then personal property rights aren’t an issue for me. If people register in their own name instead of as a company then they are far less able to rort the tax system so less likely to go the AirB&B route.(This is all assumption and speculation of course) But would be win win for people. (real ones)

                  • jcuknz

                    When the man in question grew up his playground in the back garden of a ramshackle seventy year old [at least] place was a building site as his father and mother built the family home.

                    His father’s ideal was that there should be a state house for all who wanted one but the world being what it is he decided to build his own largely out of income and a tiny mortgage by today’s standards

                    His father had rarely had much money not being employed where unions had achieved good wages and was determined to stop paying up to 50% of what he did earn in rent.

                    First step was living in an old bus then he got married and a son obviously required a proper house for the family so was willing to get his A into G and redevelop an old property. First designing with his wife and then together they built it while he had a full time job as she did raising their son and helping where she could in the project

                    The son for some reason got into the medical profession and married a nurse so both are serving the community in a much more valuable way than Dad who eventually had got a job in the entertainment industry.

                    This contrasts markedly with those without any initiative or ability as he built on one years experience of woodwork in primary school and several small projects during his early working life. In the easy days of sixty years ago he even spent a week on a building site between regular jobs. Chipping concrete to help plaster stick to it as punishment for not turning up for work the previous day. Woolworth’s building on Lambton Quay, long redeveloped to something else.

                    My impression of Airbnb et al is that they cater for the traveler who needs a place away from home to stay for a short time in competition with expensive hotels with clients saving some money by looking after themselves. A different segment of the market to those who want a home which if government had any gumption would provide through ample state housing from quality for those who are willing to look after the place to rough housing for the irresponsible anti- socialites.

                    That anybody should think the government can force an house owner to risk their place by the latter or non rent-payer is worse than a useless government which ignored the need for any to have a roof over their heads I don’t see much difference in recent govts compared to the early pre and post-WWii who faced with a housing crisis did something about it.
                    Weka .. You make good sense when you qualify yourself with ‘in areas when there is a housing need’

                    Carolyn … I believe AirBnB facilitates renters getting in touch with owners who do not rent to AirBnB The deal is renter-owner with some security provided by AirBnB’s fee structure.

                    As I said earlier I believe there should be a state house available for anybody wanting one and society should look after those in old age or disabled etc properly.

                    Personally when the family home was sold following separation I could have gone on to build more BUT I had what I needed and my hard work being wrecked by an anti-socialite was the final argument and the money became my insurance policy in case of ill health in old age. I was near 70yo at the time and I am too trusting to be a landlord

                    Weka .. you unfortunately have the common problem that you think rents should be what renters can afford whereas an owner needs to have a return of their investment otherwise there is no point to it.

                    Would you put even one dollar in a saving account if it didn’t pay at least some interest. If you say you would then you are unique 🙂

                    At 8.33 you go on to the ridiculous It is the responsibility of everyone to look after those in need and the most reasonable and effective way is through central government Though sadly I would admit this is rarely the fact of the matter with petty monsters running govt agencies.
                    The difference between theory and reality I am basically a socialist but appreciate how it fails in practice with human beings being human.

                    Molly 9.43 ….There is a lot to fix but taking away a persons right to do what they want* with their property which has cost the considerable money/effort is quite wrong and really is not needed if people shouldered their share of the burden through government.
                    *where it doesn’t impinge on the general good of the rest of us.

                    Those of us who have profited from rising prices bearing in mind it only happens when the property is sold and is really non existent until then except as collateral to borrow more. In my case I have no idea if it was fair reward for the effort put into both the family home, now gone, and my current retirement cottage.

                    Short of a moneyless society with central supplier providing what everbody wants/needs I do not see why any of us should work fornothing. People carry on about bludgers but that would encourage everyone to be one and nothing would get done 🙂

                    Antoine 8.22 and Molly …. Reward can be monetary and/or a good feeling from helping others in need. Good for Society and the individual in promoting happiness/contentment

                    My Son has repeatedly said that he enjoys helping sick people even though it is stressful and very tiring at times. Plus the distrust he felt from brown skinned folk at his white skin really hurting somebody brought up in NZ.

                    Mike 12.30 You have it right there Mike unlike your first contribution.
                    People who have the rewards in life have worked for them usually and may have profited at the expense of others who just let it happen or prefer to enjoy small things as they go through life…. Each to their own but without the creative first bunch life would be most unsatisfactory.

                    The “do-nothing–ites” is a poor choice of words and does not include those helping others or renters because they choose not to own or cannot for any reason as I mentioned earlier.

  20. patricia bremner 22

    See that we are having another weather event on the weekend in the North Island.
    Hola is growing and headed our way.

    • weka 22.1

      I saw that. Flooding is the new normal.

    • Anne 22.2

      Cyclone Hola is showing signs of being another Bola. (Interesting they have similar names.) Bola also formed in the seas adjacent to Vanuatu and intensified rapidly before zooming southeastward towards NZ at the rate of knots. It slid down the east coast of NZ and caused havoc – especially for East Cape and Hawkes Bay. Hola is looking like its going to follow the same path so… batten down the hatches if you live in eastern coastal regions!

      https://www.windy.com/?-27.467,153.050,5

      The above forecast model was spot on for Gita.

      • mikes 22.2.1

        Yep I remember Bola.

        Was in the Coromandel at a camping ground and actually have quite fond memories of things such as being up in the middle of the night and everyone trying to stop rain flooding the tent and getting to meet and know heaps of different people (met the first love of my life during that storm!) due to people hanging out inside communal buildings etc.

        (Not to diminish those who were seriously affected by Bola, I know she caused a lot of harm to a lot of people. )

  21. Plan B 23

    From Newsroom

    ‘Law firm Russell McVeagh has as expected appointed former government troubleshooter Dame Margaret Bazley to investigate its scandal over sexual assaults against summer law clerks – but has called the offending “sexual harassment” only, to the astonishment of some involved.’

    To me this is a truly amazing ‘in your face statement’ from Russell McVeagh expressing just how powerful they really are. Russell McVeagh are saying not only that they are above the law, but that they are the law. It will be incredible if they get away with it.

    Can anyone else think of a private company that could get away with this ?

  22. jcuknz 24

    Interesting if biased comment
    https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2018/03/guest_post_a_time_for_questions_papering_over_the_cracks.html
    The following thread was also amusing and worth a look. 🙂

    • Puckish Rogue 24.1

      She is good at what she does, like John Key was

      • Robert Guyton 24.1.1

        Key was “good at what she does”?
        The plot, already thick, thickens!

        • Puckish Rogue 24.1.1.1

          John communicated what he wanted to communicate as does Jacinda 🙂

    • veutoviper 24.2

      A keen young man, hoping the luck ? success? of his predecessor as MP for Helensville will rub off on him? And using his knowledge from his studies in linguistics. IMHO I think JA’s BA degree in Communications (PR and Political Science) probably trumps his “studies in linguistics”. I must check out his speeches in the House.

      However, very amusing and I can never hear the phrase “All New Zealanders” and not remember Jenny Shipley who used it to death.

      So much so, that I finally wrote to her (despite being a public servant at the time) and requested that unless she had sought my personal agreement beforehand to whatever she was claiming all NZers supported etc, to not include me and to therefore say “All New Zealander except (my name)”. I never got a reply but she stopped using the expression quite so much (and I was told by someone years later that it had been discussed in her office)

      Anyway, I suspect that quite soon there will be a posting on another blog for example, of someone doing the same analysis of Simon Bridges speeches etc …

    • ianmac 24.3

      A very silly man is Mr Penk. If he bothered to analyse Keys ad lib performances and tried to decipher his meaning, then Mr Penk would still be beavering away. Hopeless. Or for that matter he should have a go at his Bridge Leader.
      I think most people do understand what our PM Adern is saying and appreciate that she knows when to stop speaking.
      I bet Penk is the sort who, ready to tee off, would spend an hour or so with a pseudo analysis of the meaning of golf, and be left at the tee talking to himself until darkness.

  23. You_Fool 25

    Some good headlines by the Herald

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12008754
    University of Auckland staff member fired for trying to shake hands with Muslim student

    Actual story: UoA staff member specifically tries to shake hands with a muslim female student knowing that she does not physically touch non-family males as part of her religion. UoA staff member then throws up stink and yells “sexist” about her and makes a formal complaint

    A newsletter from vice-chancellor Stuart McCutcheon directed to all university staff said the academic had tried to shake her hand with the knowledge that it would be inappropriate.
    “He did this knowing that she would consider it culturally or religiously inappropriate to have physical contact with a man who was not a close relative,” the statement read.
    “When she declined to shake his hand, he made a complaint of sexual discrimination against her.”

    Headline should be “UoA staff member fired for deliberately disregarding students personal space” or similar…

    On the actual incident – what a dick for that UoA staff member…

  24. Ed 26

    And now we have Cyclone Hola bearing on us.
    And the Herald calls it ‘weird weather.’

    No joining of the dots.

    The corporate media have blood on their hands.

    • Puckish Rogue 26.1

      Amen brother!

      • Ed 26.1.1

        I’m glad we both agree on the threats posed by catastrophic climate change.
        What solutions do you propose?

        • Jenny 26.1.1.1

          The only possible solution is a global World War II scale mobilisation,.

          Climate Change is a global problem.

          What is required to beat it, is a mobilisation on the same sort of scale as the global mobilisation to defeat fascism.

          Such things as global city wide nigh-time blackouts to save electricity.

          Reorganisation of the auto industry to make wind turbines.

          World wide fossil fuel rationing was a world wide phenomenon during the ’40s With the disruption of seagoing oil tankers and the diversion of all fuel to the war effort. Fossil fuel rationing was implemented in every country. A huge expansion in public transport and ration cards for private car use were also a common feature.

          In 1939 the reorganisation of the global auto industry to make bomber and fighter airplanes took only a matter of months.

          And just like then, as well as this, to protect lives and property we need to build up our coastal defences.

          We done it once before

          If we are to beat climate change these are the things that we need to do again.

          Currently there appears to be no practical move towards such a global mobilisation.

          And in my opinion, the Paris Accord and the Kyoto Accord and all the other international high profile talking head climate change meetings and resolutions don’t count.

          To my mind they are like all the high profile meetings and resolutions passed by the League Of Nations against fascism before WWII, completely ineffectual.

          What it took in the end, was for one country to go out on a limb and take a lead.

          And all the rest had to decide what side they were on.

          In my opinion this time, that country could be us.

          At least that is what we should strive for.

          We don’t need John Key’s “fast follower” collaboration with the enemy, New Zealand needs to be take the lead, this country needs to declare all out war on climate change.

          You ask, what is our policy?

          I say it is to wage war by land, sea, and air. War with all our might and with all the strength God has given us…

          That is our policy.

          You ask, what is our aim?

          I can answer in one word. It is victory.

          Victory at all costs – Victory in spite of all terrors – Victory, however long and hard the road may be, for without victory there is no survival.

          Winston Churchill

          Churchill didn’t wait for international agreement. He said that if necessary Britain will fight on alone.

          He promised his people “blood, sweat, toil and tears” and then promptly set about delivering on his promise. And was thanked for it. Being recently voted the greatest Briton of all time.

  25. Ed 27

    Oliver Stone’s documentary ‘Ukraine on Fire’ is available to see on Vimeo.

    Stone is a great film maker, who has courted controversy with the military/ industrial complex by challenging the propaganda narrative pushed by US and it’s lackeys.

    The events in the Ukraine were portrayed by the corporate media as a people’s revolution. It was in fact a coup d’état scripted and staged by nationalist groups and the U.S. State Department.

    The black ops and control of the media message means few are aware of this.
    Some become high defensivel and aggressive when presented with the truth about the Ukraine. They have sipped the kool aid for too long.

    Well, Oliver Stone’s film will set you right.
    Would you like me to post a link to it?

  26. Ed 28

    Clean green 100% pure New Zealand.
    What.
    A.
    Joke.

    Radical measures are needed.
    Farmers who do not look after their land should have it confiscated and returned to iwi.

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/352078/algal-bloom-overruns-another-far-north-lake

  27. Alan 29

    Ed, brilliant idea, you are on to it, such actions will produce the utopian paradise that you wish for all of us – snigger

    • Drowsy M. Kram 29.1

      I’d settle for a rigorous polluter-pays scheme (not the current ‘slap on the wrist with a wet bus ticket’ penalties). Fines could be used to fund DOC, local government or whoever polices the scheme.

      It’s a simple matter of personal responsibility – after all, there really is a limit to what the NZ environment can ‘take’. [“Oh, she’ll take it…”]

      But have to admit, Alan, that your latest comment is also your most brilliant by a country mile – kudos to you, and keep up the excellent work – snigger

  28. eco maori 30

    TV3 News Hub many thanks Mike for mentioning climate change and global warming it must have poured down in Napier & Taupo all those floods.
    Good reporting Paddy Gower this is how people behave with shonky and gerry brownlee in charge of things big businesses first te tangata last.
    They will lie cheat and steal to keep profits and win a challenge Ka pai News Hub Ka kite ano

    • eco maori 30.1

      Education is the best way to improve the prospects of OUR mokos and our society education is a must for all. The money we invest in the mokos will be repayed 100% in the future. david seenothing must have shelled out a bit of dossh to get air time after his dumb_____move wearing that teshirt that would have made people think its OK to treat Lady’s like a object he’s a idiot. Ana to kai.
      Ka kite ano

  29. eco maori 31

    I’m born in the year of the Rooster I say it like I see it chin up I will try and be more tactful next time I always get a growling from the wife because of this trait. PS winston a idiot to I should have listened to some of the good people warning on Thestandard about that character instead of wasting my Mana support him Ana to kai Ka kite ano

  30. eco maori 32

    The project on 3 that was a excellent interview of Ross Taylor reason he gives the Pukana his daughter has it all figured out Ka pai Mark Richardson enough said Kia kaha Ka kite ano P.S I’m studying now

  31. Jenny 33

    Common Dreams, one of the oldest and most respected Left wing websites on the net, weighs in on the side of the humanitarian organisations, including the White Helmets and the Karam Foundation, organisations slandered and maligned by the Assad regime.
    As well as being targeted by regime propaganda, humanitarian groups on the ground in Syria have also become “legitimate” military targets for the regime and their Russian allies.

    “Why Support for Syria’s Nonviolent Fighters is Key to Ending the War”
    Common Dreams April 23, 2017

    These individuals and groups, which are operating under the most difficult conditions imaginable, are building and sustaining health and education systems, protecting civilians from violence and extremism coming from multiple sides, organizing to increase community participation in the peace process, and trying to imagine and piece together an alternative future. They include groups like the White Helmets, the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, the Karam Foundation, Citizens for Syria, Syria Deeply, Project Amal ou Salam, the Center for Civil Society and Democracy in Syria, the Syrian Civil Society Platform, Raqqa is Being Slaughtered Silently, Khadraa Organization, Syrian Expatriate Medical Association, Violet Organization, the Syrian Emergency Task Force and Women Now for Development. These organizations are building the resilience, social capital and civic infrastructure upon which a future peace will rest.

    https://www.commondreams.org/views/2017/04/23/why-support-syrias-nonviolent-fighters-key-ending-war

  32. Jenny 34

    More on the Karam Foundation, an aid organisation on the ground in Syria, that in unmistakable language denounces the the Assad regime. The Karam Foundation minces no words in holding the regime responsible for war crimes and genocide.

    EMERGENCY AID FOR THE CHILDREN OF #EASTERNGHOUTA

    Since October 2012, the Syrian regime has imposed a brutal siege in Eastern Ghouta, a suburb of Damascus. Ghouta was once remembered as the breadbasket of Syria – most known for its fertile land. Today, more than 400,000 people are suffering with no access to food, water, or medical supplies. A siege means that nothing can get in and no one can get out – this is a common practice used by the regime to silence opposition – a kneel or starve tactic that has been declared a war crime. According to UNICEF, more than 1,100 children in Eastern Ghouta suffer from malnutrition.

    HOW CAN WE HELP THE CHILDREN OF EASTERN GHOUTA?

    Karam Foundation is collaborating with the Directorate of Health in Rural Damascus and the Provincial Council on an amazing response to save the children. We are MAKING the children’s food locally — using milk formula, wheat, oil and sugar — in a former pharmaceutical factory.

    For the past 6 years, the ingenious Syrian people have displayed limitless resilience and creativity in the face of the most dire circumstances. This is one of these awe-inspiring projects.

    Over a period of 3 months, we will provide and distribute 36,000 life-saving meal packages to over 6,000 of the most vulnerable children per month in Eastern Ghouta. Our on-the-ground partner team of humanitarians, nurses, and doctors will identify the most at-risk children, and prepare and distribute the meal packages.

    Together, we will refuse to watch innocent children starve to death. Together, we will declare to the world that we refuse to be bystanders to genocide

    https://www.karamfoundation.org/eastern-ghouta/

    “It is beyond outrageous that for almost 7 years now, Syrians have shared thousands of these of horrific images of their children — shellshocked, drowned, starved, tortured, displaced — and the world continues to watch in silence. War crimes are being committed in Syria in front of our eyes. History will prove, as it has in genocides before, that the silent witnesses are as complicit in the crimes as the perpetrators,”

    Lina Sergie Attar, CEO of Karam Foundation.

    https://www.karamfoundation.org/eastern-ghouta/

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