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Open mike 09/09/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 9th, 2021 - 89 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

89 comments on “Open mike 09/09/2021 ”

  1. Gezza 1

    Good article on rehabilitation/deradicalisation programmes & the situation here with the Lynnmall attacker.

    "He had problems with belonging and attachment, he was ostracised and clinically depressed and he did not have a lot of trust,” says Canberra-based criminologist Dr Clarke Jones.

    Jones was called in to assess [him] and offered to design a rehabilitation programme for him, but says it was not put in place because there was no funding and the police had no appetite for it.

    As more details emerge about the case there is growing anger and frustration about how his release was handled by Corrections and the police.

    The Muslim Association says he should not have been left in the small Islamic community that did not have the capacity or the capability to support him.

    Corrections has defended its handling of [the attacker] and has outlined the measures it took.

    Other counter terror experts have told The Detail deradicalisation or rehabilitation would have been difficult because he was unwilling.

    So what is a rehabilitation programme and what does it take to successfully deradicalise an individual?":

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/the-detail/story/2018811353/turning-around-a-terrorist

    "Mothers and sisters
    Aliya Danzeisen of the Islamic Women’s Council of New Zealand says her group has been calling for years for more financial and professional support for community groups.

    No support is “like having some first time driver driving a Maserati. “If you have a psychosis you don’t send them to the local dairy to get support,” she says. Any rehabilitation programme needs women at the table.

    “The most effective in deradicalising people are the mothers or the sisters.”

    (Personally I'm a wee bit dubious about that one. There have been several cases overseas where mothers &/or sisters were radicalised too, or where the jihadist adheres rigidly to the Quran's teaching that women are subordinate to males & have no business telling them what to do, & they didn't dare expose their son or brother to authorities – Gezza)

    • Cricklewood 1.1

      Im hoping it gets clarified as to where he was radicalized… if its in 2016 as his mum said that means it happened here? Or he travelled back to Sri Lanka around that time?

      • Gezza 1.1.1

        Agree we need to know how & where he was radicalised. He didn't travel back to Sri Lanka. His mum there claimed he was radicalised by Iraqi & Syrian neighbours in NZ. An article I posted late yesterday by a young female Muslim academic pointed out that sectarian mosques are developing here now,

        He could just have been a psychiatrically disturbed loner who was subjected to racial abuse (he was reported by one dark-skinned witness to have ignored her & specifically targeted white people) – it flipped him over the edge & he radicalised himself on the internet.

        Nobody knows.

      • Gezza 1.1.2

        A very comprehensive analysis & opinion piece by Paul Buchanan. With some new background info.

        Among other things he canvasses the many forms of terrorism, & looks at the question Robert Guyton raised here the other day. Was the LynnMall attacker actually a terrorist?

        "… rather than an act of terrorism or terrorist act (take your pick), what I saw on Sept. 5 was the commission of a hate crime. I recognize that NZ does not have a hate crime statute (as far as I know) and understand that hate crimes are usually designated as acts of violence committed against individuals or groups because of who they are (e.g. gays, Muslims, redheads). Here I use the phrase “hate crime” because Mr. S’s hatred and rage was directed at non-Muslim society in general and because of the lack of compliance with the definitions and description of terrorism mentioned above.

        It does not make the supermarket attacks any less heinous than those done deliberately as terrorist attacks with the same (thankfully non-fatal) outcome. But it does help distinguish between underlying motive and rigorousness of method, which in turn helps prevent us from being suckered into agreeing and complying with the agendas of security officials and vested “experts” alike."

        http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2021/09/the-supermarket-stabbing-spree-was-not-a-terrorist-act/

    • Incognito 1.2

      Personally I’m a wee bit dubious about that one.

      Google is your friend. Open your mind and learn something about the topic, which might make you a wee bit less dubious. Easy to criticise from your key-board sitting in your armchair and not doing the mahi.

      • Gezzayou 1.2.1

        I've been doing te mahi on this topic for years. Islam & Islamic terrorism are huge subjects with multiple layers & complexities.

        Islam ranges anywhere from very liberal & progressive to very conservative. I’ve only ever personally known 3 Muslims reasonably well & they were all lovely, loving, genuine folk.

        Could you be more specific about exactly what you mean?

        • weka 1.2.1.1

          Please check your username before commenting each time.

          • weka 1.2.1.1.1

            the mods are already grumpy about the number of times we have to attend to this issue. The onus is on commenters to check each time.

            • Gezza 1.2.1.1.1.1

              Sorry weka. This early iPad2 just can't cope with the site. It's too old & hangs constantly, requiring constant re-typing, & re-checking that it hasn't inserted characters from the text field into the name or email address.

              Think I'll just give you all a break & sod off.

              • weka

                I find it quite hard commenting on TS even on my new iphone (although I'm logged in so I don't get the typo issue). I'll have a talk to Lynn because it's not just you, it's been a consistent issue in the last year or so.

                One suggestion I have is to type your comment in another app eg Text Edit (if that's available on your ipad) and then cut and paste into the text field.

                I'm also curious if the name and email address fields are auto-filling or if you have to retype them each time.

                What do you mean by hangs constantly?

                • weka

                  From memory Lynn says it's a user end issue, but it's so constant now and it never used to happen, so I don't really know what is going on.

                • Gezza

                  Yes, once I post the first comment the fields auto-fill.

                  But after posting 2 or 3 times, it just slows right down, the text field takes ages to open up, and when it does, clicking in it does NOTHING. No text appears. Or if it does, it might suddenly jump up into the name or email addy field.

                  This iPad2's got the last iOS version for this model. It's just too old, not enuf RAM, and can't easily access a lot of sites – including "busy" news-sites with embedded videos & animated ads etc. these days.

                  (Just FYI, for my first comment today at the top of this page, I used the iPad’s Notes app, but I didn’t notice that the excerpts I posted used the LynnMall attacker’s name twice. Even though I was able to edit them out (great having that function here 👍🏼) as soon as I submitted it, I think that was why that one went into moderation.)

              • rod

                cheerio gazza, see ya smiley

        • Incognito 1.2.1.2

          sigh

          You were quite specific about what you are a wee bit dubious. I challenged you to self-educate and possibly remove some of your doubt. Never mind, it was obviously asking too much of you.

          Have a nice day.

          • Gezza 1.2.1.2.1

            My point was that where the mothers & sisters are part of a modern day, normal, liberal & progressive Muslim family (which, in NZ, by far the overwhelming majority are) there's not usually any need for them to be involved in rehabilitation & deradicalisation programmes. Their sons & brothers are well-socialised just in their normal upbringing.

            Where sons & brothers go off the rails for whatever reason & get sucked into extremist fundamentalist ideology, they usually cleave to Taliban & IS-like beliefs that their womenfolk have no right to direct them, that it should be the other way round.

            The LynnMall attacker's mum (& others in his whanau) say they tried to talk him out of his extremist beliefs, but they couldn't. There've been female suicide attackers, as well as men. The Sri Lankan bombings after the Christchurch mosques attacker were perpetrated by a whole family unit, I think.

            The reasons for these attacks are complex. “Lone wolves” are individuals; they don’t fit into a box. And one-size-fits-all derad programmes don’t work for everyone. They need to be tailored to the individual, from what I’ve read. Paul Buchanan's done a good analysis (posted above) of whether this attacker was even a terrorist.

            But if you think I'm meaning something other than what I've said, & that you can read my mind, & I can read yours, you're mistaken.

            • Incognito 1.2.1.2.1.1

              deep sigh

              As expected, you’re sticking to your guns and refuse to open your mind and widen your horizon. Do you ever switch eyes?

              When I read a quote like that, my first reaction is to do some research. You did not, because you already know the answer, don’t you?

              However, if you’re not a wee bit dubious about it and in fact quite agree with that statement by Aliya Danzeisen of the Islamic Women’s Council of New Zealand then indeed I was mistaken and I apologise for the confusion.

              • Gezza

                I see these issues from as many sides & viewpoints as I can. I'm not fixed in my views on Islam, Muslims, or Islamic terrorists, & I still have no flippin idea what you're on about. I'm not a mind reader.

                I thought this was a better place to swap knowledge & opinions than, say, Kiwiblog.

                But it's all right, mate. I've lost interest. yes All the best with the mind-reading & cryptography. kiss

                • Gezza

                  Final comment: I agree with her that ideally there should be "women at table" in any derad programme. My comment was in relation to "the mothers & sisters being the most effective" at deradicalising people.

                  I haven't seen anything in my research yet to back that up. And I've spent enuf time explaining why that doesn't always work.

                  Hugs.

                  • Incognito

                    My comment was in relation to "the mothers & sisters being the most effective" at deradicalising people.

                    I haven't seen anything in my research yet to back that up. And I've spent enuf time explaining why that doesn't always work.

                    So close yet so far.

                    At least we’re talking about one and the same thing here. Phew!

                    Of course, you haven’t seen any research to back that up [darn algorithms], and you didn’t go looking for it either. You simply wrote if off and criticised it as something dubious.

                    You cannot explain anything if you haven’t seen any other research and because you haven’t seen anything else, until today from Aliya Danzeisen of the Islamic Women’s Council of New Zealand, you didn’t go looking for it either. It is a circular argument and a sign of confirmation bias AKA a dog chasing its own tail.

                    QED

                    BTW, where is that odd reasoning coming from that something that doesn’t always work has no validity or veracity? How would you know anyway if you haven’t seen or done any research to back that up? It is an escape route for you in case there’s some research to back it up, so you can fob it off ‘because it doesn’t always work’.

                    QED

                    So, if it is not the most effective, is it effective at all, in your opinion? Maybe we find some kind of middle ground here …

                    Thank you for the hugs, BTW.

                    • Gezza

                      Most of the research & reports I've come across so far is from the UK, where they were developing serious problems with increasing numbers of Muslim inmates convicted for criminal offences getting radicalised in the prisons.

                      They've had various different programmes in different prisons & a relatively recent conprehensive review following attacks by ex-inmates.

                      There's still mixed success, I believe. One paper (or article) indicated that the most effective programmes have been those run by a couple of well-known & respected de-radicalised extremists themselves.

                      One of them says he de-radicalised himself. He just concluded over time that killing innocents was obviously wrong, couldn't be justified & wended his own way out & into more orthodox Islam.

                      As to whether mothers & sisters might be effective in some cases, sure. It could well be that Alia is right about mothers & sisters being the best de-radicalisers for some.

                      But it doesn't follow that just because she holds the position she does, & said it, that they are in all cases (for reasons I've already traversed). Any more than The Pope can tell us how to rehabilitate sexual offending priests.

                    • Incognito []

                      Thank you.

                      As to whether mothers & sisters might be effective in some cases, sure. It could well be that Alia is right about mothers & sisters being the best de-radicalisers for some.

                      But it doesn’t follow that just because she holds the position she does, & said it, that they are in all cases (for reasons I’ve already traversed).

                      I agree with the first part. I don’t think Aliya Danzeisen argued the second part.

                      Don’t you wonder why she’d hold “the position she does”? Do you think that it is because of her PoV and/or maybe because there’s possibly some actual research to back it up?

                    • Gezza

                      Don’t you wonder why she’d hold “the position she does”?

                      No. I assume she has the skills, knowledge, motivation & drive to fill it and sees a need for the Council to exist.

                      Do you think that it is because of her PoV and/or maybe because there’s possibly some actual research to back it up?

                      I don't know. I haven't come across anything yet that reaches the conclusion she posits. I mention those other matters I do because I've been interested in this topic for years. Ever since 9/11. I've read the Quran. Read many Hadith. Started with a few of the usual suspect anti-Muslim sites. Debated with Muslims online. Got caught out having only the most cursory understanding of Islam, & spent years finding out how complex and multi-faceted it is.

                      Nobody's an expert, not even Muslims, in every sect or aspect of Islam. There's not a completely rigid doctrine. It's quite interesting how much is left to Imams & scholars to consider and issue opinions (fatwahs) on. Sharia has numerous different interpretations. Not all Islamic countries have the same Sharia codes.

      • Gezza 1.2.2

        Blimin iPad2 inserted extra characters into my username! Reply's gone into moderation.

        But I'll add that I've only known 3 Muslims reasonably well. 1 female Pakeha convert, 1 Iraqi divorced female, & 1 Somali gentleman that I worked with for 2 years. They were all lovely, peaceful, loving people.

  2. Grumpy 2

    Good news! Arctic and Antarctic sea ice volume is the highest it has been for 9 years! We are saved!
    https://osisaf-hl.met.no/v2p1-sea-ice-index

  3. Gezza 3

    AlJazeera tv newshour is reporting that international reaction to the new Taliban interim Cabinet appointments is mixed.

    [The reporter's Charlotte Bellis, ex-TV three, in Kabul, who has established very good personal relationships with their leadership & complains to them if she is abused or mistreated by their less-sophisticated footsoldiers. Aljaz tv has several Kiwi reporters & news anchors & technical staff]

    China has pledged $31 million US in aid.

    Locals' reactions range from support of their appointees & wishes for them to now just get on with governing, providing jobs, getting the ecomony back up & running etc – to disappointment & resentment there are no women Cabinet Ministers, & no other sects or ethnic minority appointments.

    • Ad 3.1

      That Taleban government is already playing a downward auction to accept the most foreign aid cash for the lowest possible moral conditions.

      Who will win out of that?

      • Gezza 3.1.1

        This remains to be seen, Ad. These dudes are a bit of an enigma at the moment.

        Taliban footsoldiers & local rural commanders from the countryside aren't usually very well educated & they have longstanding strong conservative cultural & religious views.

        But I get the impression many of them just joined the Taliban because half the country's in need of humanitarian aid & there are no jobs. The former Afghan government was thoroughly corrupt. Some local commanders didn't even pay their troops or police officers. Bribery was endemic.

        Now the Taliban can legally acquire taxes & customs duties & start building up cash reserves. But some educated women there, & ethnic minorities, are showing every sign of not being prepared to put up with the excessively patriarchial & sectarian rule of the past Taliban.

        And despite their claims they've now subdued Panjshir, there is still the core of an insurgency against them. Masoud (?) their leader hasn't been caught & has called for a national uprising against them.

        There's no shortage of arms in Afganistan. It's a rugged country whose various ethnic tribes have been switching allegiances & warring with each other for centuries.

        If the Talban don't adapt & adopt a more tolerant, more inclusive, less misogynistic approach, they could get bogged down & economically ruined trying to subdue an insurgency against THEM.

        • Ad 3.1.1.1

          By the end of this year Afghanistan will have a similar global media profile to Kyrgystan or Mozambique. Tens of billions of aid will somehow continue to be poured into them for little result other than a few getting rich.

          There are plenty of other problems to deal with.

          • Gezza 3.1.1.1.1

            They could be playing silly buggers with the remaining 100-200 Americans still living there. They're effectively hostages.

            And they're reported to be making it difficult for Afghans to leave, insisting that they must have passports or travel documents & visas.

            We'll have to see how quickly they fall off the Western media radar. They won't disappear from Aljazeera's interest & scrutiny.

        • Gezza 3.1.2.1

          Sadly they are showing every sign of being the same reactionary & extreme misogynistic patriarchal fundamentalists that they were in the 1990s.

          And the Western world in punishing them financially is probably just going to increase the poverty & misery of their own trapped civilians – unless they are toppled or forced to liberalise their concept of Sharia by an insurgency.

          They are making the Saudis & Iranians look liberal & progressive.

          • Grumpy 3.1.2.1.1

            I know quite a few Iranians and I have found them to be exceptionally liberal, decent folks. They seem to live in a different universe to their leaders.

            • Gezza 3.1.2.1.1.1

              Yes, I believe you. Aljazeera tv has shown interviews of young Iranians, males & females (20-30-somethings) sitting together, al fresco, at cafes in Tehran. Using their smartphones, several speaking English & other languages, wearing blue jeans, & though the young ladies are also wearing hijabs, they're just draped over the back half of their head, their hair is showing, they wear makeup.

              They're well-educated. They don't dare directly criticise the theocratic regime but they clearly don't like its fundamentalism. There have been middle-aged interviewees there who are also very liberal. They don’t like so much of their country’s budget being spent on the Republican Guard’s fighters in other countries; they want it spent on social programmes & infrastructure etc.

              Out in the provinces, I gather, the old conservative misogynous theocratic rules of behaviour & dress are more likely to still be enforced, & generally speaking the extremely powerful state-within-a-state Republican Guard is feared, even in Tehran.

              These more enlightened, liberal, young Muslim folk give hope for the future as the Old Guard die out. But Trump's alienated them with the resumption of even worse sanctions that have impacted them too, & with his assassination of Soleimani.

  4. Gezza 4

    Here's her newsclip:

  5. dv 5

    Any body aware of another attack (DOS) on ANZ this am.

  6. Herodotus 6

    As if those directly on the front line are not under extreme pressure not being supported by management if this report is correct. Not only those at Auckland hospital but all that we have been doing to eliminate could be undone by a failing from such as this.
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/covid-19-delta-outbreak-chris-hipkins-says-outbreak-could-push-back-phased-reopening-to-world/ENOACS3WZQWCIAEIUXOQ3RIDRE/

  7. Cricklewood 7

    Any idea why we havent had a massive public health campaign outlining some of the health factors that greatly increase the likelihood of ending up severly ill with Covid?

    Surely if we can get prople to cut down on tobacco, alcohol and get some exercise it will help both prognosis and ease some burden on the health system?

    • Gezza 7.1

      I could hazard a guess that those factors are already well-known to the folk that would note & heed such advice, & that those who currently ignore such advice would continue to do so, so why bother?

      Plus, the Covid 19 & Three Waters campaigns are probably already costing a fortune?

    • Incognito 7.2

      Not the first priority in/of an elimination strategy.

      General health and wellbeing of the population is and has been part of Government policies for years.

    • mauī 7.3

      Stop bringing common sense and public health into this. Wear your face covering and get your jab already.

  8. Reality 8

    Today's Herald title for Mike Hosking states the Government is good at creating fear but we need hope. If the Government had played the Delta virus down and not repeatedly emphasised how dangerous and contagious it was, the first person to accuse the Government of looking the other way would be Mike Hosking himself. One suspects he is not happy the case numbers are trending down.

  9. Forget now 9

    This article really buries the lead in deference to the exploiters! I do admit that gas may be a necessary; evil transitional energy source, but still; better left in the ground, if at all possible. And even if it is taken out, the land should be put right before the exploiters cut and run. The quote in the 3rd last paragraph from Taranaki Energy Watch spokesperson Sarah Roberts, should have been much nearer the top, with a better headline like: Polluters whinge about the proposed cost of being made to clean up after themselves.

    Tamarind Taranaki collapsed in December 2019 leaving the Crown with a bill of $300 million to safely decommission the offshore Tui Field.

    The government says the Bill will close loopholes which allowed Tamarind to walkaway from its responsibilities.

    If passed into law, it would hold companies liable for decommissioning costs in perpetuity, even if permits or licences have been on-sold and it would make company directors criminally liable for not fulfilling decommissioning obligations, even if they had since left the post…

    "Given that the oil and gas industry is saying that they are good corporate citizens, I think it is quite a reasonable expectation of the Crown to expect that they meet the obligation of decommissioning and I think it's always been implicit that they do and it's actually written into a number of documents, but it's just making that obligation explicit."

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/451103/energy-bosses-say-proposed-bill-poses-risk-to-electricity-supply

    Note that it was only Tamarind Taranaki Limited who "collapsed", the larger Tamarind multinational continues to thrive, and even operate in Taranaki:

    The rest of the Tamarind Group is ring-fenced and unaffected by the above actions taken in respect of the Tui entities. This includes Tamarind New Zealand Onshore Operations (the acquisition which completed in September 2019), Tamarind’s 56% operating share in the Galoc field in the Philippines, and Tamarind’s various interests in Australia.

    http://www.tamarindresources.com/new-zealand–tui.html

  10. Whispering Kate 10

    Why on earth is Middlemore Hospital allowing visitors in to see sick relatives during this level 4 lockdown. If Residential care homes are forbidding visitors because of their frail vulnerable residents why are sick and immune compromised patients not being treated with the same level of care. Staff are having to deal with haphazard mask use by visitors and one apparently managed to get it over with a patient in a room with other patients. Middlemore needs a management broom sweep.

    We are managing to reduce positive cases on a daily basis on sheer luck alone. There are some crazy decisions being made during this pandemic. Riding along on a wing and a prayer. Pray it stays that way.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/451104/nurses-organisation-horrified-at-hundreds-of-daily-visitors-to-patients-at-auckland-dhb

    [link fixed]

    • Cricklewood 10.1

      No visitors is fucking inhumane.

      The issue here is with management of visitors.

      • Incognito 10.1.1

        According to the blog of the Live Update on Stuff by Brittney Deguara (good job!), one of Bloomfield’s staffers has been in contact with the Nurses’ Organisation about the approach to visitors by ADHB and it appears to be consistent with national policy. It will be reviewed and revised by MoH and the updated guidance is expected soon and will apply to all DHBs.

      • Herodotus 10.1.2

        Many of us have had to make concessions eg unable to visit terminally ill, missing funerals of close relatives etc.

        Do we have a 0 risk factor in our elimination strategy or not? I thought we are doing everything possible to eliminate, obviously not everything. Imagine an outbreak as a result of this policy, and being told that Auckland has to stay at level 4 for another month or more. All so a few feel privileged to visit those in hospital, why not at retirement villages where those residence are separated from family ?

        https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/451104/nurses-organisation-horrified-at-hundreds-of-daily-visitors-to-patients-at-auckland-dhb

    • Dawn Trenberth 10.2

      When my parents were going through the illnesses they had at the end of their life they were often in Middlemore. There really isn't enough staff to keep people comfortable only enough to keep them alive. Things like spoon feeding them so they eat, helping them to the toilet rearranging pillows and just reassuring them is something family can do to keep them more comfortable. I think it would be very hard when visitors aren't allowed for vulnerable people.

  11. Cricklewood 11

    My phones relatively new I cant get it to paste links on TS everywhere else is fine my tablet maybe 2 years old I can comment at all with again only on TS

    • Forget now 11.1

      In the tool bars above the typing window, there is a symbol that looks like a diagonal bracket around a slash (the empty diagonal brackets/ chainlink beside it unlinks links from quoted text which saves moderator time). To link you now have to click that and paste the link into the URL box that appears.

  12. I Feel Love 12

    "Nick@StrayDogNZ

    121 of the cases from our recent outbreak have been under nine years old.

    Ardern says they can't be vaccinated, so we must get vaccinated for them.

    If you have any doubts about vaccinations, please, do it for the kids."

    From Twitter.

    • Incognito 12.1

      • solkta 12.1.1

        Speaking of saving the kids, why are schools still exempt from L2 protocols? So we now have masks and no standing up in buses, unless its a school bus. We now have masks in all indoor venues, unless its a school.

        • Incognito 12.1.1.1

          That’s a little misleading. For example, masks at schools are not mandatory but they are allowed and encouraged.

          https://www.education.govt.nz/covid-19/face-coverings/

          There’s been various statements from Ministers and the likes about school sitations recently again and Google is your friend.

          Lastly, the PM ought to qualify her statement because it is misleading too. That is, if she said those exact words in the tweet.

          • solkta 12.1.1.1.1

            Encouraged is a long way away from mandatory.

            • Forget now 12.1.1.1.1.1

              It'd go a long way to encouraging pre-teens to wear masks if masks of appropriate size were provided for them by schools. My elder child can wear an adult one (with a couple of twists of straps to shorten it), but no chance with my six year old! Her Granny got measurements the other day and is having some sewn for her, but there's a bit of a waiting list for some reason.

              Also the cost is not inconsiderable. A fresh disposable mask every school for two kids would be at least $10/ week. A custom mask (two really needed; so one can be washed while the other worn) would be more initially, but less longterm (except they'd get lost like socks).

              So for a solo parent on a benefit, that's really not possible without cutting into bill money.

              • solkta

                I was thinking more of secondary schools. Children under 12 are not required to wear masks at all.

                My daughter’s school has over 1600 students plus teachers. With all the students passing each other in hallways every hour and forming into different groups for each class there quite some potential to spread the virus.

                I agree that the state should be providing masks for schools to distribute to students. There is a duty of care.

                • Ad

                  Do you want unvaccinated and unmasked children sitting next to your daughter?

                  • solkta

                    I don't want that no. But requiring students be vaccinated in order to attend school is a considerably more complex issue than simply having them wear masks under level 2. If a secondary school student stops at the shop on the way to school or if they use public transport they are required to wear a mask, but not on a crowded school bus and in a crowded school. Schools are already pedantic about their pathetic school uniform policies so adding a mask can't be a big deal from an enforcement perspective.

                    My daughter’s school has brought in a level 2 policy that the students can't leave during the day unless a parent picks them up which is not a level 2 protocol, but do nothing about masks. Well a big F off to that.

    • Ad 12.2

      It's time to talk about vaccine mandates.

      After 9/11 the new regulations to fly on airplanes were huge – the world's travelling people adjusted.

      We need proof of double vaccination for people to attend school, university or polytech.

      Even when we get to 80% vaccination rates nationwide we are going to need proof of double shots to get into a hotel, or bar, or stadium.

      Same for public transport: load your vaccine proof onto your HopCard and SuperGold Card.

      Neither your airline nor your travel insurance provider is going to take freeloaders.

      MoE is considering the ethics of teaching people who don't wear a mask. If they're that keen on not wearing a mask, they can be taught from home.

      It’s going to be just like one’s freedom to smoke: do it by yourself in your own car and own home. Otherwise not.

      Carve out exceptions if you like … but form the rule first.

      • Incognito 12.2.1

        What a load of totalitarian nonsense! Each year, 100s of Kiwis die of the flu and despite safe and effective vaccines being available, it was never made mandatory. Ever. I don’t hope you’re going to suggest that this should be added to the list of mandatory measures, together with meningitis perhaps, and maybe HPV too for good measure. FFS, this is Aotearoa-New Zealand, not some dystopia from a Mad Max movie. The people most at risk of severe illness and death form Covid-19 are the unvaccinated ones. In the current outbreak, most positives are unvaccinated; the actual numbers are somewhere, but I can’t be arsed trying to find them right now.

        • Ad 12.2.1.1

          There was surprisingly muted protest when they brought in biometric chips into passports, iris-reading scanners and full body scanners at international airports. It's a post-9-11 cost of living.

          Did anyone wear a condom before the AIDS epidemic? Pretty standard way of public health now.

          We've given up so many civic freedoms under level 4, we will certainly lose a few permanently to keep the gains we've attained.

          Welcome to the new Post-Covid world of vaccine mandates. Like 9/11 we will follow the US example and see compulsory vaccines first on all health workers, airlines, enforcement staff like Policy and military, then frontline workers, then customer staff, hotel staff, bar staff, …

          …and then all those health insurers are going to remind every single workplace of the premiums all unvaccinated workers will cost them.

          … straight after that Worksafe is going to be part of enforcing the liability of employers for correctly supplied and correctly worn PPE.

          We have a disease that is caused by the movement of people through air. It's not the flu, or meningitis, or chicken pox.

          Aotearoa-New Zealand is going to comply with what the rest of the world tells them to comply with.

  13. Jenny how to get there 13

    The Simpson's call it again.

    https://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/mummies-found-with-golden-tongues-in-egypt-city-of-taposiris/?

    Maybe not gold, But Hans Sprungfeld corpse had a silver tongue.

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